Some info for the cause

[Buckeye Dan]

Here in Ohio we will be celebrating our 32nd season of full crossbow inclusion to the archery hunt. Here is what our hunting structure looks like this year. All information is straight from the ODNR website.
*sarcasm begins* As you will see our herd has been decimated by the crossbow. You should also note how limited the deer are for harvest. Don't forget the incredibly short archery season thanks to this infernal weapon. *sarcasm ends*

Our Archery season begins Sept 27 and ends Feb 1st
http://www.ohiodnr.com/wildlife/dow/regulations/images/deerzones08-09.jpg


Deer Hunting Permits Deer Permit ($24)

In addition to your annual hunting license, you must purchase a Deer Permit ($24) to hunt deer in Ohio. The Deer Permit ($24) is good for an antlered or antlerless deer and is valid statewide.

No more than one (1) antlered deer may be taken per license year. It may be used during
any of the deer hunting seasons, for controlled hunts or in designated Urban Units. These permits may be purchased individually throughout the entire deer season. Please refer to the section above to determine the number of Deer Permits ($24) you can use in each deer hunting zone.

Antlerless Deer Permit ($15)
Hunters must buy a Deer Permit ($24) before purchasing any Antlerless Deer Permits ($15). Antlerless Deer Permits ($15) may be used ONLY to take antlerless deer. These permits may be purchased individually until November 30, 2008.
Antlered deer are deer with antlers 3 inches or longer in length; antlerless deer include deer without antlers and deer with antlers less than 3 inches in length.
The antlerless deer permits are valid statewide during the archery season between September 27 and November 30 while using a longbow or crossbow. The Antlerless Deer Permits ($15) may be used in Zone C thru December 7. The Antlerless Deer Permit ($15) is also valid at Division of Wildlife controlled hunts, the early muzzleloader season, and within designated Urban Deer Units (see Urban Deer Units). No more than 4 Antlerless Deer Permits ($15) can be used in a license year. Please refer to the section above to determine the number of Antlerless Deer Permits ($15) you can use in each deer hunting
zone.

[BigBirdVA]

6 deer with a 4 month season? You guys need to start whining more about xbows. :lol:

Unfortunately Ohio is the only state in the US that type of a xbow program might work. :lol:



Thanks for the info.

[Swamp Ghost]

Your buck herd hasn't been "decimated" because of your reg's. I recall your deer guru discussing adding days to your firearm season and adding other "special" hunts to increase antlerless deer harvest.

Looks like Ohio is going to have to invest in creating more "opportunities" for Ohio hunters in order to get the job done.

MI hunters can purchase enough antlerless permits and deer licenses to completely erradicate MI's herd. It will never happen because of the MI hunters love of the 1.5 year old buck. Regulations (specifically ones that limit buck harvest) impact herd dynamics and populations, not weapons or unlimited antlerless permits.

[Whit1]

Guys and gals this thread has a topic. That is what will be discussed. If posts get away from this subject they will be deleted. We've used this policy in other forums in the past in order to calm things down and we are using it again in here.

You are welcome to begin a new thread with another topic; there's no problem with that.

Stay on topic!

[Buckeye Dan]

Looks like Ohio is going to have to invest in creating more "opportunities" for Ohio hunters in order to get the job done.


Ditto for Michigan! And the crossbow will create more opportunities and add more hunters to get the job done since it is still a new weapon to you guys. 10 or 20 years down the road when you have forgotten how ridiculous it is to not include the crossbow into archery season and the novelty has worn off then you may need to use methods similar to OH. But for now the immediate results should be more elderly, young and or curious hunters trying out the new weapon. This should get more deer harvested in your target group.
You are slowly coming around Swamp Ghost. And I didn't think it was possible.;)

[Swamp Ghost]

Ditto for Michigan! And the crossbow will create more opportunities and add more hunters to get the job done since it is still a new weapon to you guys. 10 or 20 years down the road when you have forgotten how ridiculous it is to not include the crossbow into archery season and the novelty has worn off then you may need to use methods similar to OH. But for now the immediate results should be more elderly, young and or curious hunters trying out the new weapon. This should get more deer harvested in your target group.
You are slowly coming around Swamp Ghost. And I didn't think it was possible.;)

We kill enough deer in MI, just the wrong ones. Does the crossbow force hunters to kill more antlerless deer? LOL! Will the crossbow create more selective hunters? :confused:

I bet some will try and make the case that they will in a power point presentatation before the MI senate. :dizzy:

[Buckeye Dan]

We kill enough deer in MI, just the wrong ones. Does the crossbow force hunters to kill more antlerless deer? LOL! Will the crossbow create more selective hunters?

No weapon will do that. But any additional revenue you receive from crossbow inclusion could go towards education and conservation efforts. If you sell 1 archery license to someone who has never hunted that's revenue FYI. If you sell multiple licenses to older folks or children or even current hunters that currently don't hunt or use the archery season that is also revenue. More hunters will take more target animals period. Might there be collateral damage to the buck herd? Possibly but it doesn't matter what weapon those hunters were going to use to begin with.
The additional revenue will help your goals in the long run. Last time I checked no one could agree as to what your herd numbers actually are and where they are located. Maybe step one from that new revenue could go towards addressing that problem. After all if you know how many deer you have and where they are, a zone regulated system like we use here could completely solve your concerns.
Like you said before you already have enough tags to eradicate the population. It's time to try something new. The crossbow will make you money for your specific goals. That fact cannot be argued. Hunting revenues have risen in every single place the crossbow has gone to full inclusion. The results are immediate the first season it happens. Crossbows allow the young and influential to hunt where they could not before. These are the hunters that will be in the next generation of adult hunters and they can be educated now. You will probably never change the mind set of the hunters that shoot spikes. But you can get a weapon, money and education program that the youth can use and teach them right from wrong in order to replace the bad guys shooting the spikes.
You are almost there Swamp Ghost. I think you are about to have an epiphany.

[November Sunrise]

MI hunters can purchase enough antlerless permits and deer licenses to completely erradicate MI's herd. It will never happen because of the MI hunters love of the 1.5 year old buck. Regulations (specifically ones that limit buck harvest) impact herd dynamics and populations, not weapons or unlimited antlerless permits.

I'm in 100% agreement that buck regulations drive results. That point seems to be somewhat at odds with your stance on crossbows.

As a collective we do indeed express a strong love and affection for 1.5 year old bucks. LOL!

[Swamp Ghost]

No weapon will do that. But any additional revenue you receive from crossbow inclusion could go towards education and conservation efforts. If you sell 1 archery license to someone who has never hunted that's revenue FYI. If you sell multiple licenses to older folks or children or even current hunters that currently don't hunt or use the archery season that is also revenue. More hunters will take more target animals period. Might there be collateral damage to the buck herd? Possibly but it doesn't matter what weapon those hunters were going to use to begin with.
The additional revenue will help your goals in the long run. Last time I checked no one could agree as to what your herd numbers actually are and where they are located. Maybe step one from that new revenue could go towards addressing that problem. After all if you know how many deer you have and where they are, a zone regulated system like we use here could completely solve your concerns.
Like you said before you already have enough tags to eradicate the population. It's time to try something new. The crossbow will make you money for your specific goals. That fact cannot be argued. Hunting revenues have risen in every single place the crossbow has gone to full inclusion. The results are immediate the first season it happens. Crossbows allow the young and influential to hunt where they could not before. These are the hunters that will be in the next generation of adult hunters and they can be educated now. You will probably never change the mind set of the hunters that shoot spikes. But you can get a weapon, money and education program that the youth can use and teach them right from wrong in order to replace the bad guys shooting the spikes.
You are almost there Swamp Ghost. I think you are about to have an epiphany.

Additional revenue? We have combo tags in MI, the people that will be using crossbows already hunt and will be using the same tags they purchased regardless of weapon or season.

NO INCREASE IN REVENUE FROM CROSSBOW USE IN MI, NONE!

I don't see how an increase in one segment of a state's hunters while that same state is still losing hunters overall is increasing it's license revenue.

[Swamp Ghost]

I'm in 100% agreement that buck regulations drive results. That point seems to be somewhat at odds with your stance on crossbows.

As a collective we do indeed express a strong love and affection for 1.5 year old bucks. LOL!

As I have stated before same hunters/same reg's + an additional weapon = same results/too many bucks and not enough doe's being killed.

[Buckeye Dan]

Additional revenue? We have combo tags in MI, the people that will be using crossbows already hunt and will be using the same tags they purchased regardless of weapon or season.

NO INCREASE IN REVENUE FROM CROSSBOW USE IN MI, NONE!

I don't see how an increase in one segment of a state's hunters while that same state is still losing hunters overall is increasing it's license revenue.

That is not what the data trends say. The people that will be using crossbows are as diverse as the hunters you already have and add more. I suppose all of Michigan's 10 year olds and 65+ year olds possess the ability to use the current archery equipment allowed? I told you this fact cannot be denied. Crossbows add new hunters. New hunters add new revenue, New revenue increases education and conservation programs. I know you think it doesn't but you can't find facts to prove your point becuase they don't exist. Just when I thought you were beginning to come around you returned to your hard line attitude that refuses to absorb real data from hunting programs all over the US and Canada. Even the states that do not have full inclusion. Crossbows allow hunters that can't hunt to hunt. It's a proven fact in ALL of the states that have any crossbow legality whatsoever. I know you have already read the numbers in the 100's of other posts you have made comments in. Why did you look away just now when you were seeing the light? I feel like Luke trying to bring his father back from the darkside. Your statement above is completley hearsay and opinion that goes against every other states documented results. ALL of which have zero negative revenue trends. They all went up! I think if you personally could review and recognize this data before forming an opion then this discussion would be over for you. That is unless you have some other agenda against the crossbow. I won't speculate what that could be.
Oh I'll add that your current crossbow program that is in place for disabled hunters makes your statement immediately false.

[sputty]

As I have stated before same hunters/same reg's + an additional weapon = same results/too many bucks and not enough doe's being killed.
Then why does the MBH stand behind the current combo-tag= 2 buck limit? It sounds like the MBH ignores what is good for the resource and wants to continue to back regulations that harvest as many bucks as possible for their group of hunters. One would be led to think they would be in favor of what would be beneficial to the resource and to protect the quality experience for their season.

[Swamp Ghost]

That is not what the data trends say. The people that will be using crossbows are as diverse as the hunters you already have and add more. I suppose all of Michigan's 10 year olds and 65+ year olds possess the ability to use the current archery equipment allowed? I told you this fact cannot be denied. Crossbows add new hunters. New hunters add new revenue, New revenue increases education and conservation programs. I know you think it doesn't but you can't find facts to prove your point becuase they don't exist. Just when I thought you were beginning to come around you returned to your hard line attitude that refuses to absorb real data from hunting programs all over the US and Canada. Even the states that do not have full inclusion. Crossbows allow hunters that can't hunt to hunt. It's a proven fact in ALL of the states that have any crossbow legality whatsoever. I know you have already read the numbers in the 100's of other posts you have made comments in. Why did you look away just now when you were seeing the light? I feel like Luke trying to bring his father back from the darkside. Your statement above is completley hearsay and opinion that goes against every other states documented results. ALL of which have zero negative revenue trends. They all went up! I think if you personally could review and recognize this data before forming an opion then this discussion would be over for you. That is unless you have some other agenda against the crossbow. I won't speculate what that could be.
Oh I'll add that your current crossbow program that is in place for disabled hunters makes your statement immediately false.

I've heard plenty of "Facts".

Please provide the "facts" that show how an increase in one segment of a state's hunters while that same state is still losing hunters overall is increasing it's license revenue.

Please provide the "facts" the show how recruiting anywhere from 1-200,000+ MI firearm hunters with a crossbow bribe, into "archery" season that have already bought combo tags for an entire season, is going to increase MICHIGAN'S license revenue.

Please provide the "facts" that crossbow's recruit "new" hunters.

I'll save you the trouble, there are none.

[Swamp Ghost]

Then why does the MBH stand behind the current combo-tag= 2 buck limit? It sounds like the MBH ignores what is good for the resource and wants to continue to back regulations that harvest as many bucks as possible for their group of hunters. One would be led to think they would be in favor of what would be beneficial to the resource and to protect the quality experience for their season.

Crossbow advocates have not a leg to stand on when it comes to "the good of the resource" because just like the MBH they place "recreational opportunity" above all else.

[sputty]

Crossbow advocates have not a leg to stand on when it comes to "the good of the resource" because just like the MBH they place "recreational opportunity" above all else.
I believe they place thier agenda above all else. But fortunatley, the vast majority of Mich. politicans do not agree with the MBH stance on the x-bow issue.:)

[Swamp Ghost]

I believe they place thier agenda above all else. But fortunatley, the vast majority of Mich. politicans do not agree with the MBH stance on the x-bow issue.:)

The full inclusion crossbow crowd's agenda is what again?

I'd take a MI's politician's disagreement as a complement. Bang up job so far....... BLOWN AWAY.........

[sputty]

The full inclusion crossbow crowd's agenda is what again?

I'd take a MI's politician's disagreement as a complement. Bang up job so far....... BLOWN AWAY.........
I believe the crossbow crowd's agenda is to be included in archery season and to give Everyone another choice of weapon. It's that simple. The MBH agenda: mine,mine,mine,mine,mine,mine. What was the total again, 94 for, 14 against...........BLOWN AWAY...........:)

[Buckeye Dan]

I've heard plenty of "Facts".

Please provide the "facts" that show how an increase in one segment of a state's hunters while that same state is still losing hunters overall is increasing it's license revenue.

Please provide the "facts" the show how recruiting anywhere from 1-200,000+ MI firearm hunters with a crossbow bribe, into "archery" season that have already bought combo tags for an entire season, is going to increase MICHIGAN'S license revenue.

Please provide the "facts" that crossbow's recruit "new" hunters.

I'll save you the trouble, there are none.

You want facts? Look at the current regulations for using a crossbow in your state. By the very definition of the law those people are unable to use tradtional archery equipment. If you outlawed the crossbow they would not be able to hunt in archery season at all. You would have them join the gun ranks instead? 10 years old and the weaker elderly cannot use tradtional archery equipment. Your law is excluding them from using the crossbow as we speak. They want to hunt. There have been 100's of posts from people that want to use the crossbow. They want to hunt. More licenses meand more revenue period. There I proved it to you with your own states laws and didn't quote a single figure.

[Whit1]

This thread has gotten off topic.