Arrow shooting guns

[chevyjam2001]

I received a post card in the mail today from MBH stating their lack of support for HB5741. They are worried that there are 400,000 firearm deer hunters that "could flock to the bow season if they could shoot arrows with guns in October". Do they actually believe this stuff :dizzy:? I am glad that this was not a membership that cost me any money or I would be very disappointed. It seems to me they have a very out dated thought process when it comes to any type of deer management. Having support only for ones narrow interests, instead of what is good for the entire sport or the resource itself just seems selfish to me. I don't have a crossbow but I won't begrudge someone who wants to use one. Just my .02.

[swampbuck]

I think that message is more useful to the pro crossbow side.:lol:

[Terry Williams]

I received a post card in the mail today from MBH stating their lack of support for HB5741. They are worried that there are 400,000 firearm deer hunters that "could flock to the bow season if they could shoot arrows with guns in October". Do they actually believe this stuff :dizzy:? I am glad that this was not a membership that cost me any money or I would be very disappointed. It seems to me they have a very out dated thought process when it comes to any type of deer management. Having support only for ones narrow interests, instead of what is good for the entire sport or the resource itself just seems selfish to me. I don't have a crossbow but I won't begrudge someone who wants to use one. Just my .02.


Maybe your cost will come down the line

[Michihunter]

Maybe your cost will come down the line

Could you expound on that response? As a spokesman for MBH I would imagine you can provide more details regarding this statement, correct?

[chevyjam2001]

Maybe your cost will come down the line

Perhaps, but I seriously doubt that the crossbow hunters will have anything to do with it. If 700,000 firearm deer hunters can't wipe out a deer herd how much impact can the few additional crossbow hunters really have? I mean c'mon arrow shooting guns, give me a break.:sad:

[Terry Williams]

A few?

[Terry Williams]

Could you expound on that response? As a spokesman for MBH I would imagine you can provide more details regarding this statement, correct?


It been talked about before, its up to the senate....

[Michihunter]

A few?
Are you seriously the Governor of Region 1? I would hope an organization as vocal as you appear to be would certainly have FACTS to back up their contentions. Mindless projections of hunting Armageddons are for people a bit more paranoid than hunters. Please provide statistics and facts that back up your contentions. As a spokesman for MBH this should be readily available, should it not?

[Terry Williams]

We don't believe our projections are mindless. We belive your inclusion of the xbow into the archery season is thoughtless

[Terry Williams]

As well you have no "facts" as to how the xbow will affect the Michigan herd

[Michihunter]

As well you have no "facts" as to how the xbow will affect the Michigan herdActually there are plenty of statistics posted(from me as well as others) that would give an indication of what to expect with the inclusion of a crossbow during archery season. And contrary to your contentions, nothing has been adversely affected. Not ONE thing. Check the facts in states that have included the crossbow and you will see that the herds have actually PROSPERED since the inclusion of a crossbow in those states. Hunter satisfaction has increased. And new hunters are being introduced to our beloved sport in numbers not reflected in states that have not included them. Another thing to consider is that in MI, the majority of hunting takes place on private land where property owners can place their own standards and rules. What is MBH afraid of?

As for your response about the inclusion being thoughtless, it could be said (and better received) that the non-inclusion of a type of bow in an archery season is nothing more than selfishness.

[michigandeerslayer]

I have never seen a group of more selfish people

It is about "our archery season"

Man give it up, if crossbow become legal it is not like there is a line out the door waiting to buy one.


The song and dance about its going to hurt the archery season is getting over played

I have more fear of the poachers that are going to be around and not follow the rules more then a few thousand crossbow hunters


MBH stance is bias and unjust

I am glad I never joined, because i would rather vomit then be part of a group like this

[Munsterlndr]

Guys, quit feeding the troll. He is only here to cause problems. If you just ignore him he might linger like a bad fungus for awhile but eventually he will go away. He's from Ohio so he knows darn well that full inclusion will not result in any substantive problems, he's just posting to get a rise out of people.

[Terry Williams]

I have never seen a group of more selfish people

It is about "our archery season"

Man give it up, if crossbow become legal it is not like there is a line out the door waiting to buy one.


The song and dance about its going to hurt the archery season is getting over played

I have more fear of the poachers that are going to be around and not follow the rules more then a few thousand crossbow hunters


MBH stance is bias and unjust

I am glad I never joined, because i would rather vomit then be part of a group like this

Speaking of vomit the stench is overwhelming

[Terry Williams]

Guys, quit feeding the troll. He is only here to cause problems. If you just ignore him he might linger like a bad fungus for awhile but eventually he will go away. He's from Ohio so he knows darn well that full inclusion will not result in any substantive problems, he's just posting to get a rise out of people.


I'm gonna tell Ray about you

[chevyjam2001]

We don't believe our projections are mindless. We belive your inclusion of the xbow into the archery season is thoughtless

It isn't my idea to include it into the archery season. I just don't see what the big deal is. I have seen a few post in these forums with data from other states like Ohio and Wisconsin I beleive, that don't show any negative impact on the population. But I know those arent the same because Michigan is different blah, blah, blah. The only difference in Michigan is the added bureucratic red tape added that leaves any type of resource management decision in the hands of people that don't know squat about how to manage the resource.

[Terry Williams]

It isn't my idea to include it into the archery season. I just don't see what the big deal is. I have seen a few post in these forums with data from other states like Ohio and Wisconsin I beleive, that don't show any negative impact on the population. But I know those arent the same because Michigan is different blah, blah, blah. The only difference in Michigan is the added bureucratic red tape added that leaves any type of resource management decision in the hands of people that don't know squat about how to manage the resource.


So lets involve the politicians they'll get a handle on it????

[michigandeerslayer]

Speaking of vomit the stench is overwhelmingSo is the Bs that you are spreading along with your "club"

[chevyjam2001]

No you missed the point. Let's not involve the politicians, they are too easily swayed by special interest groups. Lets have a board of certified biologists and specialist that make decisions based on sound scientific principles with the good of the resource itself at the top of the list of concerns. Maybe if they weren't afraid of not being re-elected they would make more bold, ground breaking decisions instead of sitting on their butts. One thing you will never see in MI is a headline stating that the DNR/NRC made a first of its kind move in deer management. They always hold back so that they can say well you see, it has already worked in X, Y, and Z state so maybe we should try it too. That way there is somebody else to lay blame on if it doesn't work out in their favor.

[Swamp Ghost]

It isn't my idea to include it into the archery season. I just don't see what the big deal is. I have seen a few post in these forums with data from other states like Ohio and Wisconsin I beleive, that don't show any negative impact on the population. But I know those arent the same because Michigan is different blah, blah, blah. The only difference in Michigan is the added bureucratic red tape added that leaves any type of resource management decision in the hands of people that don't know squat about how to manage the resource.

Possible negative impacts on the Ohio herd is minimized by Ohio's OBR and 7 day shotgun only gun season.

There is a huge difference between Ohio's deer management, regulations, season length, hunter mindset and MI's.

[Terry Williams]

Possible negative impacts on the Ohio herd is minimized by Ohio's OBR and 7 day shotgun only gun season.

There is a huge difference between Ohio's deer management, regulations, season length, hunter mindset and MI's.



You are correct Sir

[BigBirdVA]

As well you have no "facts" as to how the xbow will affect the Michigan herdNeither do you. But we do have data from other states that show it doesn't affect anything in a negative manner. Never has to date anywhere.

[Terry Williams]

Just because your willing to gamble with Michigans archery season that doesn't mean all of us are. What your interest in our season? Don't you work or have an interest in the crossbow industry? We always see these interlopers that come out of the wood work when it comes to the crossbow. Are you from the Government and here to help?

[10PtCrossbow]

BigBIrdVA has been through this in VA and it was going to ruin VA hunting as well. It was going to kill all the deer and only slobs were going to use crossbows there. He has lived through it, they still have deer, there are some good ethical hunters using crossbows and the world is still turning. Because he has first hand knowledge of the transition, I think his input is important as opposed to the ramblings and scare tactics of MBH and the NABC!

[10PtCrossbow]

As well you have no "facts" as to how the xbow will affect the Michigan herd

Show us your facts that it will have a negative impact on the MI herd. Or any state herd for that matter.:confused:

[Michihunter]

Possible negative impacts on the Ohio herd is minimized by Ohio's OBR and 7 day shotgun only gun season.

There is a huge difference between Ohio's deer management, regulations, season length, hunter mindset and MI's.

Swamp- The estimated number of deer in the entire state of OH has been reported at 600k. The SLP alone has at least that many here in MI. If the entire state has 3x the number of deer(MI's herd is estimated at 1.8 million), then the length of seasons SHOULD be different. When you take a look at harvest data, you'll see that OH kills off approx 35% of their deer yearly with their current seasons (2005 reported 209k killed). MI kills off approx 25% (465k reported in 06). According to most anti xbow people, the xbow will increase kill percentages. Do you think it would increase by almost 10% to match OH's?

[sbooy42]

Show us your facts that it will have a negative impact on the MI herd. Or any state herd for that matter.:confused:

What do ya know another new member joined for the sake of argument....

welcome..do you have any positive input that would help MI's situation.. or do you , like others believe the crossbows is the save all.. even though there aren't any facts showing a positive impact from x-bows in other states...

Since your profile isn't filled out I'll assume your not even from MI...

[10PtCrossbow]

I filled out my profile for you.
I think crossbows will have almost no impact on the head in MI.
You will have a small percentage of guys that go from compounds to crossbows. You will have a small number of gun hunters add crossbows to there huntng weapons. You will have some more people that could not qualify for a disability permit be able to hunt. You will have some kids get into the sport. You will have some older guys that have gotten out ofarchery in the last couple years come back. You will have some guys buy a crossbow and in a year or two, they will purchase a compound bow because they found they liked archery and want something just a little more difficult. Some may even go into recurves.
You will have guys gripe and cry about it the first season. Then the next year it will not even be on the radar.
Over the course of time, you may add a significant number of bowhunters to your ranks. This will help you fight issues like adding gun seasons inthe middle of archery season.
Those are my thoughts. If you want facts and figures from other states on a certain topic, I will do my best to get you those.
Randy

[Swamp Ghost]

Swamp- The estimated number of deer in the entire state of OH has been reported at 600k. The SLP alone has at least that many here in MI. If the entire state has 3x the number of deer(MI's herd is estimated at 1.8 million), then the length of seasons SHOULD be different. When you take a look at harvest data, you'll see that OH kills off approx 35% of their deer yearly with their current seasons (2005 reported 209k killed). MI kills off approx 25% (465k reported in 06). According to most anti xbow people, the xbow will increase kill percentages. Do you think it would increase by almost 10% to match OH's?

Ohio hunters kill more female deer, are more selective with buck harvests and the Ohio gun season doesn't target bucks during a time that places them at their most vulnerable exposure, the rut.

Give Ohio hunters 30 years of MI deer reg's and their results will look dramatically different.

[10PtCrossbow]

welcome..do you have any positive input that would help MI's situation.. .. even though there aren't any facts showing a positive impact from x-bows in other states...


I would argue that there are lots of positive facts of allowing crossbows.

One being that over half of OH hunters are involved in Archery. I think that is a HUGE plus. Our archery season have never been shortened and that kind of involvment makes for a strong voice in OH. MD and WI have added senior type seasons and have had increased senior archery tags sold since the they added crossbows. PA has added crossbows in two huge urban zones to control deer populations and they have had great success with controlling the herd and adding archery hunters. MD has seen the results from PA and will do the same thing this fall in 5 of their counties.
I get pictures all the time of 6, 7 and 8 year olds that have taken their first deer with a crossbow. You could not wipe the grin off their faces. There would have been no way they could have taken a deer with a compound bow and yet, they are hooked for life.

All of those things are positive issues brought about by the crossbow.
Let meknow if you want more. I can send you pictures if you want to see them.

[10PtCrossbow]

Ohio hunters kill more female deer, are more selective with buck harvests and the Ohio gun season doesn't target bucks during a time that places them at their most vulnerable exposure, the rut.
.

I thought the crossbow hunters were just going to shoot all the big bucks and no does?:confused::yikes:

[Swamp Ghost]

I filled out my profile for you.
I think crossbows will have almost no impact on the head in MI.
You will have a small percentage of guys that go from compounds to crossbows. You will have a small number of gun hunters add crossbows to there huntng weapons. You will have some more people that could not qualify for a disability permit be able to hunt. You will have some kids get into the sport. You will have some older guys that have gotten out ofarchery in the last couple years come back. You will have some guys buy a crossbow and in a year or two, they will purchase a compound bow because they found they liked archery and want something just a little more difficult. Some may even go into recurves.
You will have guys gripe and cry about it the first season. Then the next year it will not even be on the radar.
Over the course of time, you may add a significant number of bowhunters to your ranks. This will help you fight issues like adding gun seasons inthe middle of archery season.
Those are my thoughts. If you want facts and figures from other states on a certain topic, I will do my best to get you those.
Randy

The FACTS don't support your claims. I'll be waiting for your facts and figures from other states.

[Swamp Ghost]

I thought the crossbow hunters were just going to shoot all the big bucks and no does?:confused::yikes:

It's the regulations. Not the weapon.

[Michihunter]

Ohio hunters kill more female deer, are more selective with buck harvests and the Ohio gun season doesn't target bucks during a time that places them at their most vulnerable exposure, the rut.

Give Ohio hunters 30 years of MI deer reg's and their results will look dramatically different.
I'll agree with you on most of your assertions but in my opinion that has little to do with the inclusion of crossbows to the archery season. Do you honestly feel that xbows would contribute to even more mismanagement? And if so, in what way.

[Michihunter]

It's the regulations. Not the weapon.YES!!! On that we can agree. Especialy considering that the xbow is already part of the firearm season, and from what I can recall, you have no problem with that even though the timing of that particular season seems to be a major issue.

[10PtCrossbow]

The FACTS don't support your claims. I'll be waiting for your .

In 2002, MD sold under 200 Senior archery tags. They added crossbows in 2003. In 2006 MD sold nearly 1800 senior archery tags.

In 2002 WI added crossbows to their Senior in archery season. IN 2002 they sold about 4000 tags, in 2005, they sold over 8000 Senior tags.

FACTS that do support the claims!

[Swamp Ghost]

I would argue that there are lots of positive facts of allowing crossbows.

One being that over half of OH hunters are involved in Archery. I think that is a HUGE plus. Our archery season have never been shortened and that kind of involvment makes for a strong voice in OH.

OH regulations greatly influence increased archery participation because recreational opportunity is reduced by a short gun season and OBR.

MD and WI have added senior type seasons and have had increased senior archery tags sold since the they added crossbows.

Increased senior archery tag sales, entirely because of the crossbow? That would be hard to prove. How many more senior tags were sold? Did deer hunters numbers increase during this time?

PA has added crossbows in two huge urban zones to control deer populations and they have had great success with controlling the herd and adding archery hunters. MD has seen the results from PA and will do the same thing this fall in 5 of their counties.

Urban deer hunts? Hard to draw conclusions from "special" hunts.

I get pictures all the time of 6, 7 and 8 year olds that have taken their first deer with a crossbow. You could not wipe the grin off their faces. There would have been no way they could have taken a deer with a compound bow and yet, they are hooked for life.

I got pictures of nieces and nephews and other kids that have huge grins from bluegills caught out of a farm pond, small game hunting and just hanging out with me in blind.

Crossbow use enabling a kid to kill a deer in order to "hook" them is pure BS.

All of those things are positive issues brought about by the crossbow.
Let meknow if you want more. I can send you pictures if you want to see them.

That's right! The crossbow is hunting's savior, I almost forgot. :rolleyes:
...

[Swamp Ghost]

YES!!! On that we can agree. Especialy considering that the xbow is already part of the firearm season, and from what I can recall, you have no problem with that even though the timing of that particular season seems to be a major issue.


I have no problem with a "lessor" weapon in firearm season.

[Swamp Ghost]

In 2002, MD sold under 200 Senior archery tags. They added crossbows in 2003. In 2006 MD sold nearly 1800 senior archery tags.

In 2002 WI added crossbows to their Senior in archery season. IN 2002 they sold about 4000 tags, in 2005, they sold over 8000 Senior tags.

FACTS that do support the claims!

How many of these tag holders used crossbows?

How many of these tag holders actually hunted?

[10PtCrossbow]

How many of these tag holders used crossbows?

How many of these tag holders actually hunted?

Neither state specifies on either.

WI Archery tags were virtually the same from 2002 to 2005 at just over 150,000, so the senior tags were way different then the norm. I am certainly not claiming it was all because of the crossbow, but it seems odd that both states had huge increases after the addition of crossbows.

No where did I ever say crossbows were the savior. In fact my comments, as with most of the numbers from existing states shows that it is just a blip on the radar, but it is a benefit in many regards. You do a great job of trying to turn things around though.

[awshucks]

How many of these tag holders used crossbows?

How many of these tag holders actually hunted?

Good points! Maybe they took a dip in the Fountain of Youth, or OD'ed on Geritol, or got younger girl friends, anything but a dreaded "plus" for the use of xbows.:lol::lol::lol:

[10PtCrossbow]

...

Yeah, I know, everytime you get facts and figures that don't go your way, you try and discredit them, but when somebody makes a point you always ask for facts and figures. Which way do you want it.Oh yeah, you only want it your way for your season and your deer.

You use OH numbers to say that it will be a nightmare for OH, but when I use the same numbers, it is a regulations issue that makes the difference.

If the numbers areso high in OH because the gun season is short, then the numbers won't be bad inMI because the gun season is longer. That is your rational, not mine.

[Terry Williams]

Isn't it amazing that all these interlopers have such a heart felt interest in the Michigan archery season? They continue to mask their concerns about the seniors, the less than 80%, the children,,,oh yes the children and the looks on their faces. Give me a break.

It's the look on the executives faces at Horton, Barnett, Parker, Bowtech, and the others that concerns me. It's the look of greed and the millions of dollars to be made in the state of Michigan and Xbow sales.

[bishs]

Besides Mi, I have hunted deer in Ohio, North Dakota, Colorado, Minnesota, Kansas, and Iowa. There is a great difference between Michigan and most states. We have so many gun hunters in Michigan, that the quality of the hunt is poor " to say the least." Most areas in Michigan experience no natural movement of deer after the first day. The bow season, is our "gem" it allows sportsman to pursue whitetails in a long season. The deer are pressured, but not to the extent where it's a huge problem. "Except some state land areas".

If crossbows in archery season pulled in a percentage of gun hunters. That would take the "quality hunt" out of the bow season. I don't want to take that risk. The states I listed above, only have a fraction of the hunters MI does. Crossbows are not as big of a risk with these states.

For what its worth, I own and hunt land in Michigan. But I have hunted state land in lower and upper MI for years. Getting away from hunting pressure is the key, for a good hunt experiencing natural deer movement. How can crossbows in bow season help us?

Crossbows are right where I feel they should be. For those folks unable to shoot a bow, and during gun season. Handicapped hunters can also utilize the handicap bow permit.

I was on the crossbow AD HOC comittee that allowed the legalization of crossbows in our gun season. In my opinion any weapon that allows you to be "loaded and ready" able to shoot off a solid rest, and shoots by squeezing the trigger, while looking through a scope should be in our gun season.

I am not only against crossbows, the baiting can leave anytime.

[10PtCrossbow]

It's the look on the executives faces at Horton, Barnett, Parker, Bowtech, and the others that concerns me.

Wait,
Parker and Bowtech make compound bows. How could that be. How could they turn on their customers and make some devil weapon that will ruin archery forever? Say it isn't so! Oh wait, Fred Bear ran a bow company as well. Maybe he was just in it for the profit too!

[10PtCrossbow]

Isn't it amazing that all these interlopers have such a heart felt interest in the Michigan archery season? They continue to mask their concerns about the seniors, the less than 80%, the children,,,oh yes the children and the looks on their faces. Give me a break.


You should be worried about them as well. But that would mean more hunters in your woods during your season shooting your deer. By the way, nice comment with the Kool-aid. That is very professional. The MBH should be proud.

[srconnell22]

It's the look on the executives faces at Horton, Barnett, Parker, Bowtech, and the others that concerns me. It's the look of greed and the millions of dollars to be made in the state of Michigan and Xbow sales.

So millions of dollars added to Michigan's economy hurts Mi how?

[Terry Williams]

Besides Mi, I have hunted deer in Ohio, North Dakota, Colorado, Minnesota, Kansas, and Iowa. There is a great difference between Michigan and most states. We have so many gun hunters in Michigan, that the quality of the hunt is poor " to say the least." Most areas in Michigan experience no natural movement of deer after the first day. The bow season, is our "gem" it allows sportsman to pursue whitetails in a long season. The deer are pressured, but not to the extent where it's a huge problem. "Except some state land areas".

If crossbows in archery season pulled in a percentage of gun hunters. That would take the "quality hunt" out of the bow season. I don't want to take that risk. The states I listed above, only have a fraction of the hunters MI does. Crossbows are not as big of a risk with these states.

For what its worth, I own and hunt land in Michigan. But I have hunted state land in lower and upper MI for years. Getting away from hunting pressure is the key, for a good hunt experiencing natural deer movement. How can crossbows in bow season help us?

Crossbows are right where I feel they should be. For those folks unable to shoot a bow, and during gun season. Handicapped hunters can also utilize the handicap bow permit.

I was on the crossbow AD HOC comittee that allowed the legalization of crossbows in our gun season. In my opinion any weapon that allows you to be "loaded and ready" able to shoot off a solid rest, and shoots by squeezing the trigger, while looking through a scope should be in our gun season.

I am not only against crossbows, the baiting can leave anytime.

You must be crazy? That actually makes sense. You must be a MBH member. How else could you think such rubish. Hopefully when the xbows come you'll be eligible for some type of therapy:dizzy:

[Terry Williams]

So millions of dollars added to Michigan's economy hurts Mi how?


That is a spin and you know it, the majority of that money will go back to the manufactures.

[Terry Williams]

You should be worried about them as well. But that would mean more hunters in your woods during your season shooting your deer. By the way, nice comment with the Kool-aid. That is very professional. The MBH should be proud.


I bet your a xbow rep of some type. MBH gets drug through the mud on this site by tons of xbow proponents and suddenly you want to accuse me of being unprofessional? Thats laughable, but should any of my comments offend any MBH members please feel free to contact me.

Remember its for the children.

[Falk]

I believe there is going to be huge number of gun hunters joining the bow hunting season. I know some personally that are all buggy-eyed just thinking about it. I agree with Bish. The added pressure on the Deer will diminish the quality of the bow hunting experiance. They will turn nocturnal in very short order. Only time will tell but I am afraid that the the outcome is not going to as rosie as most of you guy are hoping for.

[srconnell22]

That is a spin and you know it, the majority of that money will go back to the manufactures.

how am I spinning anything? I asked you to explain something you said?

Even if the "majority" of the money goes back to the manufacturers ( I havent researched to see if there are any crossbow manufacturers in MI), a percentage will stay here. Even if it is 10% of a multi-million dollar industry I'll take it. Spending money creates money...

[Terry Williams]

I see your a bow hunter so, whats the price that your willing to sell out the archery season.

[Terry Williams]

Selling bait generates money as well, so would snagging salmon. Money is the key for the xbow manufactures lets not make hunters chase the dollar too.

[Riva]

Besides Mi, I have hunted deer in Ohio, North Dakota, Colorado, Minnesota, Kansas, and Iowa. There is a great difference between Michigan and most states. We have so many gun hunters in Michigan, that the quality of the hunt is poor " to say the least." Most areas in Michigan experience no natural movement of deer after the first day. The bow season, is our "gem" it allows sportsman to pursue whitetails in a long season. The deer are pressured, but not to the extent where it's a huge problem. "Except some state land areas".

If crossbows in archery season pulled in a percentage of gun hunters. That would take the "quality hunt" out of the bow season. I don't want to take that risk. The states I listed above, only have a fraction of the hunters MI does. Crossbows are not as big of a risk with these states.

For what its worth, I own and hunt land in Michigan. But I have hunted state land in lower and upper MI for years. Getting away from hunting pressure is the key, for a good hunt experiencing natural deer movement. How can crossbows in bow season help us?

Crossbows are right where I feel they should be. For those folks unable to shoot a bow, and during gun season. Handicapped hunters can also utilize the handicap bow permit.

I was on the crossbow AD HOC comittee that allowed the legalization of crossbows in our gun season. In my opinion any weapon that allows you to be "loaded and ready" able to shoot off a solid rest, and shoots by squeezing the trigger, while looking through a scope should be in our gun season.

I am not only against crossbows, the baiting can leave anytime.

Bish, there's so much here, I just don't know where to start. Perhaps we should start with the "h" word. You know, the word that describes "those people" in a stereotyical, condecending manner. It's so enlightening to see that some equate those less fortunate than themselves in the same breath as special parking permit. Read my lips...people are not handicapped. They are DISABLED!! It's 2008 in case you forgot!:dizzy:

And to your statement, that is one whopper of a misrepsrentation: Your sentence should have read: Disabled hunters can use the crossbow if they meet the most stringent and overly restrictive criteria of all the 47 states that have a provision for same. Oh yeah, it's also the criteria that MBH openly advocates be not loosed and, MBH calls for an even more vigorous scrutiny to flush out "abusers".

And, for what its worth, I own land too. And, my "quality experience" is not denigrated one calorie by having lots of my friends, relatives and guests all around me. No on my neighbor's land. Nor in the section. Nor in the county. I am filled with glee if/when somebody on my property takes a deer. I dont say, "oh crap, that deer could have been mine". You guys keep chanting this "less is better" mantra. At my joint, it's "the more the merrier" and, if you get a deer it's: "Hooray for you".

I do, however, agree with you on one point. The bow season, is our gem. "Our" is the correct personal pronoun to use. Specifically, it is no more "your" gem than it is mine. It is "ours".

[srconnell22]

I see your a bow hunter so, whats the price that your willing to sell out the archery season.

How does someone else using a crossbow hurt me? Let's think about this...

More hunters in the woods means more deer shot...good thing, herd is too high as it is.

More deer shot equals better ratios (if a hunter can hunt longer chances are they are more prone to shooting antlerless deer and not shooting the first spike they see on opening day). more antlerless deer shot is a good thing.

More money spent while hunting, perhaps even purchasing hunting land...so the price of land rises....thats a good thing too.

More kids introduced to sport at an earlier age, which just as I was introduced to the sport, can become lifelong outdoorsman...another good thing.

More deer shot equals less car deer accidents which could involve you or I.

So when you ask me what price I'm willing to pay in order to continue "my tradition" of hunting your not going to get very far...I am in no position to tell you or anyone else what you can take into the woods with you when you strap on your boots.

I would love to shoot a deer with a crossbow, in fact I will be shooting multiple antlerless deer with a crossbow, normal bow, and hopefully (if all the stars align and God is happy with me for a moment) with a recurve this September. I enjoy choice and embrace change...many cannot.

Ask the mother or father who lost their child in a car/deer accident what they would have paid to have more hunters in the woods...that may be a better answer for you.

You and I may be very different however...I am generally the first one to congratulate someone when they shoot a big buck. It sounds as though that person would have shot "your big buck." This is a very big problem with MI's deer hunter in general, jealousy is a bad thing.

[Terry Williams]

Save it, no matter what the % would have been it would have been to high. Your about full inclusion, no more no less.



Oh, and remember its for the children

[10PtCrossbow]

Besides We have so many gun hunters in Michigan, that the quality of the hunt is poor " to say the least." Most areas in Michigan experience no natural movement of deer after the first day.


MI does have more hunters then OH, but OH has more hunters per square mile then MI. So for you to assume that the pressure on the deer is different because of more hunters, that would be a stretch.

MI has 625,000 gun hunters and 97,990 square miles. That works out to about 6.38 hunter's per square mile.

OH has 400,000 gun hunters and 44,825 square miles. That comes out to about 8.92 hunters per square mile.

Surley Swamp ghost will dispute those numbers as well.:lol:

[ridgewalker]

crossbows have never been guns that shoot arrows; they are bows that shoot arrows. guns propel projectiles by the use of gunpowder at speeds that far excel any bow. it isnot about numbers, although if it were crossbows would win the debate handsdown, in my opinion. it is about the disabled and seniors and others that cannot draw and hold efficiently to be able to use a compound or other bow. Michigan standards for a permit have not been workable for most of us that need one. The difference is between a firearm and a bow not a horizontal bow and a verticle bow. when compounds came along many bow hunters said they would ruin archery hunting and that never happened. how about outlawing all compounds if it is strictly traditional equipment that you want. That would be unthinkable to those who now want to block the use of crossbows. The season would not end or be dramatically changed; it would just become more fair or open for those who now cannot enjoy that season.

[Swamp Ghost]

Yeah, I know, everytime you get facts and figures that don't go your way, you try and discredit them, but when somebody makes a point you always ask for facts and figures. Which way do you want it.Oh yeah, you only want it your way for your season and your deer.

You use OH numbers to say that it will be a nightmare for OH, but when I use the same numbers, it is a regulations issue that makes the difference.

If the numbers areso high in OH because the gun season is short, then the numbers won't be bad inMI because the gun season is longer. That is your rational, not mine.

It works both ways. I see all this "fluff" about crossbow use and it's positives for hunting but absolutely no substance to support it.

Having said that, I feel very strongly that the only way that we’re going to be able to successfully manage our deer herds is by making more hunters successful. I believe that in most areas, successful hunters are saturated. We cannot rely on them to kill additional deer for us. Rather, we need to increase hunter success rate from its current level of 30%-35% and send a larger portion of the hunting public home with a deer each year. How do you do that? By providing as much opportunity as you possibly can. Weekend days to hunt with a firearm worked really well for us this year. Legalizing the crossbow would also work well! Hunters have to be in the woods to kill a deer. Therefore, you do whatever it takes to put guys in the field for as many days as possible and give as many weapon choices as possible! End of story!"

MI has a long gun season and long bowseason, MI has a plethora of recreational opportunity. Now if Dr. Mike Tonkovich head of the Ohio DNR's wildlife division's predictions/opinions/conclusions are correct and you combine them with MI's reg.s, you are going to have a very negative effect on MI's 1.5 year old bucks. This possible negative effect is nullified because of OH's OBR and very short shotgun only firearm season that is timed after OH's rut.

All factors have to be included when it comes to crossbow inclusion. You just can't pick and choose single aspects from various states combine them and determine an outcome for MI.

Ohio has OBR and Arkansas has antler restrictions. The rest of the crossbow inclusion states have other unique aspects to their deer management whose results have nothing to do with crossbow use.

The potential negatives concerning the MI deer herd far outweigh any potential positives for recreational opportunity that crossbow advocates can concoct.

[Swamp Ghost]

MI does have more hunters then OH, but OH has more hunters per square mile then MI. So for you to assume that the pressure on the deer is different because of more hunters, that would be a stretch.

MI has 625,000 gun hunters and 97,990 square miles. That works out to about 6.38 hunter's per square mile.

OH has 400,000 gun hunters and 44,825 square miles. That comes out to about 8.92 hunters per square mile.

Surley Swamp ghost will dispute those numbers as well.:lol:

LOL! You better believe it. Some MI hunters will be hunting under water and in downtown Detroit.

Ohio has one of the lowest hunting populous percentages in the country, I believe 4-5% of Ohio's population hunts.

[Terry Williams]

It works both ways. I see all this "fluff" about crossbow use and it's positives for hunting but absolutely no substance to support it.



MI has a long gun season and long bowseason, MI has a plethora of recreational opportunity. Now if Dr. Mike Tonkovich head of the Ohio DNR's wildlife division's predictions/opinions/conclusions are correct and you combine them with MI's reg.s, you are going to have a very negative effect on MI's 1.5 year old bucks. This possible negative effect is nullified because of OH's OBR and very short shotgun only firearm season that is timed after OH's rut.

All factors have to be included when it comes to crossbow inclusion. You just can't pick and choose single aspects from various states combine them and determine an outcome for MI.

Ohio has OBR and Arkansas has antler restrictions. The rest of the crossbow inclusion states have other unique aspects to their deer management whose results have nothing to do with crossbow use.

The potential negatives concerning the MI deer herd far outweigh any potential positives for recreational opportunity that crossbow advocates can concoct.

Please stop with the facts already. :) Lets keep this emotional, have you no heart for the children

[chevyjam2001]

Please stop with the facts already. :) Lets keep this emotional, have you no heart for the children

Sir, your professionalism, or lack there of speaks volumes for the MBH. You should be proud.

[Terry Williams]

Sir, your professionalism, or lack there of speaks volumes for the MBH. You should be proud.

Please stop, your killing me.:rolleyes:

[Terry Williams]

Sir, your professionalism, or lack there of speaks volumes for the MBH. You should be proud.



I think I get it now only proponents can be sarcastic. Sorry.

[chevyjam2001]

I doubt you will ever get it.

[Terry Williams]

Probably not

[Michihunter]

I think I get it now only proponents can be sarcastic. Sorry.

The proponents here are representing merely themselves. You, sir, are representing an organization that supposedly prides themselves on representing Michigan bowhunters (whether we want them to or not). You do understand the difference in that? Right?

[Terry Williams]

So I have to play nice is that it? Maybe I do need to be more of a politician, most of you hide who you really are I have choosen not to and am certain you want to devert the subject to me dishing out some of the medicine I have received.

[chevyjam2001]

The proponents here are representing merely themselves. You, sir, are representing an organization that supposedly prides themselves on representing Michigan bowhunters (whether we want them to or not). You do understand the difference in that? Right?

The sad part is he has been a governor for the MBH for almost 10 years and this is as articulate as he can get.

[Terry Williams]

I'm sorry I'm not as articulate as you. Is that your method to attack me personally and try to insult me? Maybe I should have paid more attention in school. But one thing I am certain of is that I love bow hunting and believe that Michigan should not have xbows in the archery season.

Be critical of me personally in anyway you want. I still don't hide who I am.

Chevyjam what have you done to promote bow hunting over the last 10 years?

[chevyjam2001]

Believe it or not I actually went bowhunting. I bought a bow for me 3 actually over the past 10 years. I have gotten my wife and my 3 kids involved as well. Although I see you don't seem to think to kindly of children joining your elitist group. I just find it kind of ironic that your signature line ends with "join today" but the vibe you give off is anything but appealing. At least that is just my opinion. I will save the newsletters though for some tp at camp:lol:. Peace out.

[Terry Williams]

No I asked what you have done for bow hunting. The answer is obviously nothing. MBH has done more for getting kids involved in archery than any other organization in the state. MBH members have donate 10's of thousands of dollars and given countless hours to helping kids get into archery.

I will save the newsletters though for some tp at camp....lets see how many of your proponents chide you for that comment. If your that broke send me a pm and I'll send you some real TP.

[Terry Williams]

Also how did this get twisted that I don't want kids in our group????

[chevyjam2001]

MBH has done more for getting kids involved in archery than any other organization in the state. MBH members have donate 10's of thousands of dollars and given countless hours to helping kids get into archery.

That may be true but your demeanor on this site surely isn't helping them win over potential members. I didn't realize that by being a bow hunter that meant I was doing nothing for the sport:dizzy:. My bad I'm sorry for that one. As far as my "proponets" I don't know who you are talking about. I don't have any organizations listed in my signature line. Not that I don't belong to a few, and only one that I regret;).

[Terry Williams]

What don't you understand about my question? You insult me, and while I may not be as articulate as you, I have spent the last 10 years helping to promote bow hunting in Michigan. Again I would ask you what have you done to promote it?

[Terry Williams]

Should I assume one of our members gave you a membership since you didn't pay for it?

[Kelly Johnson]

Gentlemen,
The passion resounds in your posts and it's admirable.

However I will remind everyone that we will stick to the topics of debate and the issues at hand without resorting to defamation of character or the threads will get locked or deleted in the beginning and banishment will be the recourse for anyone that repeatedly ignores the Terms of Service of Michigan-Sportsman.com.

As you were.:)

[Terry Williams]

Thank you, I'll certainly work on being civil and a little more articulant.:)

[Ranger Ray]

Everyone should be involved in our outdoor sports. Helping to recruit kids is commendable. But I must ask, what bearing does that have on whether crossbows should be legalized?

[Terry Williams]

Good question, I didn't bring up kids the proponents did.

[BigBirdVA]

Just because your willing to gamble with Michigans archery season that doesn't mean all of us are. What your interest in our season? Don't you work or have an interest in the crossbow industry? We always see these interlopers that come out of the wood work when it comes to the crossbow. Are you from the Government and here to help?Well you have me there. I've received a lot of compensation from a couple of xbow manufacturers. I'm up to 2 hats and a nice golf shirt.:lol:
Sorry I don't get anything from them but if you have any tips on how I might be able to cash in let me know.

[TOW]

One would wonder what compensation that the antis get from the vertical bow companies to keep crossbows out of the archery season.

Are they protecting not only their turf, but market share too?

;)

[Liv4Huntin']

What is MBH afraid of?

As for your response about the inclusion being thoughtless, it could be said (and better received) that the non-inclusion of a type of bow in an archery season is nothing more than selfishness.

As for the first part: fear of loss of power. (IMO)

Second part: so it would seem .... repeatedly !
~ m ~

[TOW]

Good question, I didn't bring up kids the proponents did.

Can you dispute, with facts, that crossbows do not recruit youths to take up hunting?

[KLR]

I really have no dog in this fight, but I will add this-


I quit shooting deer (sorry, anyone that uses the word "hunting" to describe the pursuit of deer in MI is delusional) a few years ago. I've killed deer with Rifles, Shotguns, Single Shot Pistols, Revolvers, Muzzleloaders, and Archery tackle. Having not purchased a deer license in the past 3-4 years if can tell you if legal, I will buy a license, buy a crossbow and shoot a deer- just so I can say that I've done it. Other than that, I can't forsee myself taking after deer in the future-

[Riva]

Can you dispute, with facts, that crossbows do not recruit youths to take up hunting?

Crossbows do not recruit young people into hunting sports: small game, big game or otherwise. Adult mentors do, specifically: parent(s), sibling(s), cousin, relative, unrelated mentor.

Historically, small game hunthing was the typical pathway for most young to hunting sports. It was for me. However; small game hunting has witnessed a monumental decline since the 1950's (for a lot of reasons). As a result, this has created a giant lurch in recruiting and retaining new hunters into the ranks. A crossbow is just one tool to recruit young people into (all) hunting. Alternately, the two parent household will have a more profound effect on hunter recruitment than any other factors--crossbows included. That, regrettably, I can't do anything about.

[butter21]

Can you dispute, with facts, that crossbows do not recruit youths to take up hunting?

Can you show us how they recruit youth? :rolleyes:

[TOW]

Crossbows do not recruit young people into hunting sports: small game, big game or otherwise. Adult mentors do, specifically: parent(s), sibling(s), cousin, relative, unrelated mentor.

Historically, small game hunthing was the typical pathway for most young to hunting sports. It was for me. However; small game hunting has witnessed a monumental decline since the 1950's (for a lot of reasons). As a result, this has created a giant lurch in recruiting and retaining new hunters into the ranks. A crossbow is just one tool to recruit young people into (all) hunting. Alternately, the two parent household will have a more profound effect on hunter recruitment than any other factors--crossbows included. That, regrettably, I can't do anything about.

Riva,

You're playing funny little word games with me.

Of course "Crossbows" don't recruit as they are inanimate objects. They can't say, " LIttle Johnny, you want to go hunting?" BUT, the abilty to use a crossbow in archery season has and does allow recruitment of the youth into hunting.

Not saying that there are not other avenues of recruitment, but this brings them in and hooks them good.

I've seen it happen way to many times.

[marty]

Riva,

You're playing funny little word games with me.

Of course "Crossbows" don't recruit as they are inanimate objects. They can't say, " LIttle Johnny, you want to go hunting?" BUT, the abilty to use a crossbow in archery season has and does allow recruitment of the youth into hunting.

Not saying that there are not other avenues of recruitment, but this brings them in and hooks them good.

I've seen it happen way to many times.

I agree;) I let my 8 year old grandson and his buddy shoot my crossbow. That's all they want to use on their first deer hunt:D

[TOW]

I agree;) I let my 8 year old grandson and his buddy shoot my crossbow. That's all they want to use on their first deer hunt:D

Isn't it amazing that kids absolutely love shooting them? They are not bothered by the hyperbole of "they are not bows". They just shoot them and have fun doing it.

My grandkids are the same way..

Get them hooked on hunting and then they can decide later which hunting tool that they want to use. I don't care what they hunt with as long as they are out there hunting..

Some others say " if the kid doesn't hunt my way forget it".

[butter21]

Riva,

You're playing funny little word games with me.

Of course "Crossbows" don't recruit as they are inanimate objects. They can't say, " LIttle Johnny, you want to go hunting?" BUT, the abilty to use a crossbow in archery season has and does allow recruitment of the youth into hunting.

Not saying that there are not other avenues of recruitment, but this brings them in and hooks them good.

I've seen it happen way to many times.
Examples?

I agree;) I let my 8 year old grandson and his buddy shoot my crossbow. That's all they want to use on their first deer hunt:D
With out knowing your grandkids, and not claiming to. Would it be that way b/c thats what their Grandpa shoots?

Isn't it amazing that kids absolutely love shooting them? They are not bothered by the hyperbole of "they are not bows". They just shoot them and have fun doing it.

My grandkids are the same way..

Get them hooked on hunting and then they can decide later which hunting tool that they want to use. I don't care what they hunt with as long as they are out there hunting..

Some others say " if the kid doesn't hunt my way forget it".
Do you really think that a crossbow is going to be the deciding factor if they will get hooked or not?

[chevyjam2001]

If it sparks their interest I would have to say yes, a crossbow could be a deciding factor on wehter they hunt or not. As TOW stated get them out doors hunting first, let them decide on what they want to use later on down the road.

[butter21]

If it sparks their interest I would have to say yes, a crossbow could be a deciding factor on wehter they hunt or not. As TOW stated get them out doors hunting first, let them decide on what they want to use later on down the road.
So if they didn't shoot a crossbow they wouldn't like hunting? :lol:

[chevyjam2001]

Perhaps if they weren't able to draw a vertical bow yet a crossbow would afford them the opportunity to get out hunting. If it doesn't spark their interest they wont be out there for long.

[Swamp Ghost]

Perhaps if they weren't able to draw a vertical bow yet a crossbow would afford them the opportunity to get out hunting. If it doesn't spark their interest they wont be out there for long.

Does any of this have to do with dropping the hunting age?

I know I practiced for 2 years before I was old enough to hit the woods with a bow. I also sat out a few firearms seasons before I was old enough to gunhunt. The same holds true for my cousins and brother, they still are avid hunters, imagine that.

[chevyjam2001]

Really, so did I. And I practiced for several years before I got a chance to even draw on a deer. But did you have the internet, playstation, X-box, wii etc. etc. There are other things out there competeing with us for their time. Like it or not, if you make it difficult they will stay home and play on the computer. It is sad thing when a kid doesnt get to go hunting or fishing, not because they don't want to but because they want to try something different.

[marty]

Examples?


With out knowing your grandkids, and not claiming to. Would it be that way b/c thats what their Grandpa shoots?


Do you really think that a crossbow is going to be the deciding factor if they will get hooked or not?

I shoot a crossbow .dad shoots a compound. The weapon doesn't make the hunter and won't even make sure he gets hooked. Right now he likes the crossbow and that's what important;)

[TOW]

Examples?

Sure.. All crossbow kills.. and there are thousands and thousands more out there just like them

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/Winkies/15999_S4200215.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/Winkies/15449_1006007.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/Winkies/13759_jaron.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/Winkies/13754_Mydoe.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/Winkies/12542_mybuck.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/Winkies/12565_Image0441.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/Winkies/12566_Image0381.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/Winkies/12842_JessicasFirstDeer2008A.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/Winkies/12937_PA280861.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/Winkies/13093_100_0898.png



With out knowing your grandkids, and not claiming to. Would it be that way b/c thats what their Grandpa shoots?

Kids do not come into with preconcieved notions that crossbows are evil and are not archery and enjoy the heck out of it. Most of the ones that have shot my crossbws have said that they do not understand why everyone cant hunt with them. Out of the mouths of babes...

Do you really think that a crossbow is going to be the deciding factor if they will get hooked or not?

I'm quite sure that kids can get hooked on hunting with any hunting tool. The factors of the non-intimidation of shooting a crossbow as opposed to a gun (no fire and recioil) is a plus in recruitment.

Being from the bowhunting fraternity I would rather see kids get hooked on archery gear first though.

I do know that for the slight kids and slight women the crossbows are a more than adequate archery hunting tool. Where a compound/recurve that they can handle will be marginable at best. I would much rather see a young kid or a slight woman use a crossbow that can get the job done than a compound or recurve that is marginable and might end up just wounding the animal.

A kid starting out and wounding an animal could very turn them off to any hunting in the future.

[TOW]

A couple more...Got to love those smiles. That says it all...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/Winkies/13465_398.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/Winkies/13466_401.png

[TOW]

I shoot a crossbow .dad shoots a compound. The weapon doesn't make the hunter and won't even make sure he gets hooked. Right now he likes the crossbow and that's what important;)

110% spot on Marty.

Once we make hunters out of them then they can choose ON THEIR OWN later on what they want to hunt with.

[TOW]

Perhaps if they weren't able to draw a vertical bow yet a crossbow would afford them the opportunity to get out hunting. If it doesn't spark their interest they wont be out there for long.

Yep... we need to get them out there before other interests catch them up.

Wait until they are 14 or so and we might just lose them before we hook them.

[Swamp Ghost]

http://24.124.1.242/img/photos/2007/12/10/Deer_Messing_t191.jpg?785455fb3b4188f20f3237954e9c 1b12c5d3b59b
Crystal Messing, age 12, shot this 4-point deer on Nov. 2 near Caro

http://24.124.1.242/img/photos/2007/12/10/Deer_-_Emma_Atwell_2_col_?785455fb3b4188f20f3237954e9c1b 12c5d3b59b
Emma Atwell, 14, bagged her first deer, a 3-point buck, while hunting with her dad near Rose City during the youth hunt on Saturday, Sept. 22.

http://24.124.1.242/img/photos/2007/12/10/Youth_Hunt_Lynette_Jackson_t191.jpg?785455fb3b4188 f20f3237954e9c1b12c5d3b59b
Lynette Jackson shot this 8-point buck during a youth hunt with a 50 caliber muzzleloader.

http://24.124.1.242/img/photos/2007/12/10/Youth_Hunt_Tim_Baker_t191.jpg?785455fb3b4188f20f32 37954e9c1b12c5d3b59b
Ten-year-old Timothy Baker of Millington shot an 8-point buck while hunting with his dad, Tim Baker, in Mecosta County during a youth hunt. He shot the deer right through the heart on Saturday, Sept. 22.

http://24.124.1.242/img/photos/2007/12/10/youth_hunt_-_bailey_lester_t191.jpg?785455fb3b4188f20f3237954e 9c1b12c5d3b59b
Bailey Lester shot this nice five-point buck during the youth hunt wihle hunting with his dad, Dave Lester. Bailey is in sixth grade at Kingston Elementary School

http://24.124.1.242/img/photos/2007/12/10/youth_hunt_-_Chandler_London_t191.jpg?785455fb3b4188f20f323795 4e9c1b12c5d3b59b
Chandler London, 12, of Cass City, bagged an 8-point buck with a 20-gauge with his father Chris London during a youth hunt near Marlette.

http://24.124.1.242/img/photos/2007/12/10/youth_hunt-_Cory_Lipe_t191.jpg?785455fb3b4188f20f3237954e9c1b 12c5d3b59b
Cory Lipe, 12, shot this 4-point, 120-pound buck Sept. 23 with his dad during a youth hunt in the Deford area.

[Swamp Ghost]

It has nothing to do with weapons or even deer hunting.

http://www.averyoutdoors.com/images/AHYouthHunt/Day2-10.jpg

http://www.timgrounds.com/images/scrapbook/2006scrap/110406_hunt.jpg

http://www.timgrounds.com/images/scrapbook/2007scrap/YH07Grounds.jpg

http://www.michiganyouthhuntprogram.com/images/img_6451_17a6.jpg

[Munsterlndr]

It has nothing to do with weapons or even deer hunting.


No, it has a lot to do with weapons and deer hunting.

Posting some nice pictures of kids hunting does not negate the fact that there are a lot of kids who may be interested in deer hunting at age 10 or 11 but don't have the physical capacity or coordination to use vertical archery tackle. Crossbows offer them an opportunity to participate in deer hunting and become enamored with the sport prior to becoming so engaged in other organized recreational activities that they don't have time to consider taking up hunting. This is simply a fact and ignoring it or saying they should sit on the sidelines and watch until they can pull a vertical bow or use a firearm results in losing an important demographic that could contribute to stemming the tide of lost hunter numbers. As evidenced in both the photos posted in this thread and by the anecdotal experience of a highly respected member of this forum, crossbows can be an effective tool in allowing kids to become hooked on hunting at a young age.

The majority of those kids will probably gravitate to vertical bows as they get older so I'm not sure what you anti's are complaining about, it's an effective recruiting tool for you guys, too. You start a kid off as a firearms hunter and they may stay a hunter for life but if you start a kid off with a crossbow, hunting at close ranges during an early season and it's likely that they will end up being a bow hunter for life.

[BigBirdVA]

http://24.124.1.242/img/photos/2007/12/10/Deer_Messing_t191.jpg?785455fb3b4188f20f3237954e9c 1b12c5d3b59b
Crystal Messing, age 12, shot this 4-point deer on Nov. 2 near Caro

http://24.124.1.242/img/photos/2007/12/10/Deer_-_Emma_Atwell_2_col_?785455fb3b4188f20f3237954e9c1b 12c5d3b59b
Emma Atwell, 14, bagged her first deer, a 3-point buck, while hunting with her dad near Rose City during the youth hunt on Saturday, Sept. 22.

http://24.124.1.242/img/photos/2007/12/10/Youth_Hunt_Lynette_Jackson_t191.jpg?785455fb3b4188 f20f3237954e9c1b12c5d3b59b
Lynette Jackson shot this 8-point buck during a youth hunt with a 50 caliber muzzleloader.

http://24.124.1.242/img/photos/2007/12/10/Youth_Hunt_Tim_Baker_t191.jpg?785455fb3b4188f20f32 37954e9c1b12c5d3b59b
Ten-year-old Timothy Baker of Millington shot an 8-point buck while hunting with his dad, Tim Baker, in Mecosta County during a youth hunt. He shot the deer right through the heart on Saturday, Sept. 22.

http://24.124.1.242/img/photos/2007/12/10/youth_hunt_-_bailey_lester_t191.jpg?785455fb3b4188f20f3237954e 9c1b12c5d3b59b
Bailey Lester shot this nice five-point buck during the youth hunt wihle hunting with his dad, Dave Lester. Bailey is in sixth grade at Kingston Elementary School

http://24.124.1.242/img/photos/2007/12/10/youth_hunt_-_Chandler_London_t191.jpg?785455fb3b4188f20f323795 4e9c1b12c5d3b59b
Chandler London, 12, of Cass City, bagged an 8-point buck with a 20-gauge with his father Chris London during a youth hunt near Marlette.

http://24.124.1.242/img/photos/2007/12/10/youth_hunt-_Cory_Lipe_t191.jpg?785455fb3b4188f20f3237954e9c1b 12c5d3b59b
Cory Lipe, 12, shot this 4-point, 120-pound buck Sept. 23 with his dad during a youth hunt in the Deford area.
Obviously the previous posts show kids don't care. So why does it matter to you what they or anyone shoots?

[Swamp Ghost]

Obviously the previous posts show kids don't care. So why does it matter to you what they or anyone shoots?

It doesn't matter what anyone shoots when it comes to recruiting a new hunter.

When all else fails bring up youth, the elderly, and the disabled in conversations concerning full inclusion.....

It fools most people

[Swamp Ghost]

No, it has a lot to do with weapons and deer hunting.

Posting some nice pictures of kids hunting does not negate the fact that there are a lot of kids who may be interested in deer hunting at age 10 or 11 but don't have the physical capacity or coordination to use vertical archery tackle. Crossbows offer them an opportunity to participate in deer hunting and become enamored with the sport prior to becoming so engaged in other organized recreational activities that they don't have time to consider taking up hunting. This is simply a fact and ignoring it or saying they should sit on the sidelines and watch until they can pull a vertical bow or use a firearm results in losing an important demographic that could contribute to stemming the tide of lost hunter numbers. As evidenced in both the photos posted in this thread and by the anecdotal experience of a highly respected member of this forum, crossbows can be an effective tool in allowing kids to become hooked on hunting at a young age.

The majority of those kids will probably gravitate to vertical bows as they get older so I'm not sure what you anti's are complaining about, it's an effective recruiting tool for you guys, too. You start a kid off as a firearms hunter and they may stay a hunter for life but if you start a kid off with a crossbow, hunting at close ranges during an early season and it's likely that they will end up being a bow hunter for life.

It was never a problem until MI dropped the hunting age. There are consequences that came along with allowing much younger hunters. I had no problems shooting a bow and could have effectively hunted at age 10, but had to wait until I was 12. As did my friends and family members, it made that first opener better than Christmas.:)

Just because you give a kid a rifle doesn't guarantee success/harvest. Getting kids fishing, small game hunting or even shooting lights the fire, too much focus is placed on what a kid may use and ensuring their success. I think some adults should stop trying to live through their kids and mistaking their own desires for a child's much simpler desires.

Just because something "can" be an effective tool, people should stop acting like it's the "only" tool.

MI has a successful youth hunting program.

For the 1500th time, I am not anti-crossbow.

[November Sunrise]

I see the primary issue in recruiting children into the hunting ranks as being the age at which they can get started hunting. If I remember correctly I think that the information that the legislature considered several years ago when deciding to lowering the minimum hunting age showed that the states with no minimum hunting age were the most effective in recruitment/retention of young hunters. From a recruitment perspective the best thing that could happen in MI would be the elimination of the minimum hunting age.

The primary reason I lease land across the border in Indiana and Ohio is that those states have no minimum age limits for children, which permits me to start my children hunting when I decide they're ready.

I started my oldest son deer hunting at age 10 with a firearm in Ohio and Indiana. I started my second oldest son squirrel hunting in Ohio at age 8, he moved on to crossbow hunting during archery season in Ohio when he was 9, and firearm hunting in Indiana when he was 10. The first 50 hours afield that my second oldest son experienced while hunting with a crossbow during October hunts, where the weather is palatable and deer are under normal movement patterns, has been considerably more valuable to his learning than the first 100 hours my oldest son and I spent afield during the chaos of firearm season.

I'd estimate that roughly half of the Ohio compound hunters that I've spoken to started archery hunting prior to age 10 with a crossbow, and then graduated to a compound bow within a year or two after they developed the physical strength to pull sufficient poundage and maintain at least a minimally acceptable level of accuracy. I suspect that the recovery rate for deer shot during archery season is considerably worse than most would imagine, and even if the child can pull minimally adequate poundage, that alone does not establish that they should be afield shooting at game. It is an exceptional 10 or 11 year old who has both the strength to pull and hold a bow with sufficient poundage and who practices regularly enough to be highly accurate with a vertical bow, and I strongly commend the minority of parents who’ve invested the necessary time in training children that young to reach such a high level of proficiency.

My second oldest son is at least one full year, and possibly two, from being strong enough to hunt with a compound bow in MI. He is looking forward to this fall as he'll be turning 12 and will finally be old enough to hunt with a firearm in MI. In the past two seasons, while he's been physically unable to archery hunt and ineligible to firearm hunt in MI, he's killed two bucks in Ohio with his crossbow and 3 does in Indiana during firearm season.

When it comes time to get a child started deer hunting I prefer them to use a crossbow during archery season over any other option.

[TOW]

It was never a problem until MI dropped the hunting age. There are consequences that came along with allowing much younger hunters.

The "consequences are a betetr recruitment rate. It is a proven fact that minimum age limts and Hunter education requiremnst si a deterent to recruiting. That si why more and more states are buying into Families Afield and instituting "apprentice licenses".

I had no problems shooting a bow and could have effectively hunted at age 10, but had to wait until I was 12. As did my friends and family members, it made that first opener better than Christmas.:)

That is a personal acedont taht does nto necessarily apply to all. In fact, it DOES NOT apply to all.

Just because something "can" be an effective tool, people should stop acting like it's the "only" tool.

No "can" about it. Crossbows do help to recruit the young, women and retains older hunters.

No one said it was a total or only answer to recruiting the young.

Do you not agree that crossbows woud help to recruit the young, women and retain older hutners?

[Swamp Ghost]

No data/fact exists to prove crossbows alone recruit/retain hunters. If it existed, we would have seen it by now.

As far as personal anecdotes, some should follow their own advice.

[TOW]

No data/fact exists to prove crossbows "alone" recruit/retain hunters. If it existed, we would have seen it by now.



WHOA!!

Now we got you to say "alone". Finally you have admitted that crossbows do recruit the youth..

Thank you sir..

[Swamp Ghost]

WHOA!!

Now we got you to say "alone". Finally you have admitted that crossbows do recruit the youth..

Thank you sir..

If you say so, I suggest you see an ophthalmologist for your tunnel vision.

[BigBirdVA]

It doesn't matter what anyone shoots when it comes to recruiting a new hunter.

When all else fails bring up youth, the elderly, and the disabled in conversations concerning full inclusion.....

It fools most peopleWhen all else fails discount what you don't agree with regardless of what others say.

BTW I took both my girls xbow hunting last year. But I know that's still not enough for some.

[TOW]

Originally Posted by Swamp Ghost (http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2180963#post2180963)
No data/fact exists to prove crossbows "alone" recruit/retain hunters. If it existed, we would have seen it by now.




Originally Posted by TOW (http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2180965#post2180965)

WHOA!!

Now we got you to say "alone". Finally you have admitted that crossbows do recruit the youth..

Thank you sir..



If you say so, I suggest you see an ophthalmologist for your tunnel vision.



Nah, I'd say that you had a Freudian slip....

[Swamp Ghost]

When all else fails discount what you don't agree with regardless of what others say.

BTW I took both my girls xbow hunting last year. But I know that's still not enough for some.

Discounted? That's a stretch.

I took my nephew squirrel hunting last year, he loved it and he wasn't even using a crossbow, unbelievable I know.

Using youth, the elderly, and the disabled to drive the full inclusion agenda is, beyond lame, it's pathetic.

[Swamp Ghost]

Nah, I'd say that you had a Freudian slip....




Wishful thinking? :lol:

Is it a Freudian slip when a full inclusion person implies that crossbow's will recruit "new" hunters, increase deer hunter numbers, revenue, and balance MI's deer herd?

Or is it pure conjecture? Opinion? Half-truths?

Take your pick..........

[November Sunrise]

Using youth, the elderly, and the disabled to drive the full inclusion agenda is, beyond lame, it's pathetic.

I just can't relate at all to why considerations for young hunters, the elderly, and the disabled would be labeled as lame or pathetic.

In respect to disabled hunters, the permit system that has been in place in recent years has been woefully inadequate and has left many with disabilities falling through the cracks. I see nothing but positives in getting children afield with a crossbow during the several years previous to the point where they could become adept at using a compound and I certainly don't have any concern about which type of archery equipment a senior citizen would use. Personally, I do see kids and older hunters as important groups and I can't relate at all attempts to mock the individuals who advocate increased opportunities for the members of those groups.

[Swamp Ghost]

I just can't relate at all to why considerations for young hunters, the elderly, and the disabled would be labeled as lame or pathetic.

In respect to disabled hunters, the permit system that has been in place in recent years has been woefully inadequate and has left many with disabilities falling through the cracks. I see nothing but positives in getting children afield with a crossbow during the several years previous to the point where they could become adept at using a compound and I certainly don't have any concern about which type of archery equipment a senior citizen would use. Personally, I do see kids and older hunters as important groups and I can't relate at all attempts to mock the individuals who advocate increased opportunities for the members of those groups.

Considerations? Come on NS. We wouldn't be having these conversations if it was only about having "considerations" for certain segments of hunters.

I haven't mocked anyone.

[November Sunrise]

Considerations? Come on NS. We wouldn't be having these conversations if it was only about having "considerations" for certain segments of hunters.

I haven't mocked anyone.

Some of us pointed out the benefits of crossbow legalization for children, etc. You labeled that as lame and pathetic. Kind of seemed like you were mocking:).

Anyway, I'm not into fluffy arguments. I recognize that there's no end to the level of foolishness that's advocated by hundreds of different groups and causes that shroud their agenda under the guise of "do it for the children". It's mentally insulting. But that's not what I'm doing here. I'm not claiming the end of hunting civilization in MI will end as we know it if we don't permit children (or the elderly) to use crossbows. What I'm saying is that for those groups I see crossbow usage as a very good thing. One that I fully support.

Now it just so happens that all of our debates center around full inclusion. Which I also see as a good thing, and the primary reason I see it as a good thing is how it will benefit the aforementioned groups.

As an aside, I'm a management guy through and through. You know that from all of my posts in the management forum. I spent substantial time doing my own due diligence in research of our harvest patterns before arriving at a point where I supported full inclusion of crossbows. I don't see evidence of crossbow inclusion leading to any additional challenges with the overharvest of yearling bucks. If I did see evidence of that I wouldn't be a supporter of full inclusion.