Thought for the day with training

[tailcrackin]

Ok, we havent done this in a while. Here is something to let you guys an gals, think about. Its an easy fix, or somewhat easy fix, but I want to see what your thinking and why.

Ok, guy comes last summer brings a setter, 8mo. old. Totally green, nothing done. So we work together, get it good to it all, the bird, gun, and natural retrieve. So, he hunts good number of pen birds, along with alot of wild.
So he comes back after season done, we talk about, an I show him whats next. He has good understanding on the style, and dog leaves here with owner, understanding.
2 mo. later comes back with the dog collar conditioned, and steady to flush, dog can break at the shot.
Now, there was no whoaing during......but the dog now.....is flagging on game. why?
So dog has good foundation, broke out pretty easily, turning out to be nice dog, but now wants to flag. This dog will wiggle outta the skin, but dont move its feet, so its steady. Dogs was started with ecollar on medium 1 with the nick, finished with a low 1 on short continuos. It is now standing after flush with no ecollar, honestly wouldnt take much to polish, the dog is nice, and trainable, just wants to flag, why do you think this is happening. I will explain the answer later, just wanna see what you guys think. Would rather discuss openly, so people can learn, if need be privately will be fine, through here or jonesy68@alltel.net Thanks Jonesy

[JTC]

Jonesy, I'm not a professional trainer or even a good amature but have been reading several BB's for a few years and this is what my first thought was. Is the dog only flagging on pen raised birds? I've heard of this happening alot, some how the dogs know the difference whether it be human scent or diet i don't know.

Just my first thought.
Jim

[Shotgun Kennel]

Flagging can be a couple things from what I have seen. The dog has had too much pressure, or The dog may be thinking of taking the bird out. But, it is really hard to say unless you have been around to evaluate the process and look at the dog to try to see what is in it's head.

[res]

I train labs and have no clue what flagging is so in my mind I see a pointer with the shipmans flag waving as if he is going to land a plane on an aircraft carrier!!!!!!! :lol::lol: I would suppose he is trying to tell the shooters "bird is over here, pay attention" but I am pretty sure I am not accurate!!! Rick:)

[kek25]

Bad timing by owner on e-collar stimulation (i.e. too early or too late) in attempting to correct when dog is working a bird creating confusion.

[tailcrackin]

Ok now 51 reads, and 4 replies, cmon guys, I see you guys chime in all over on training topics, or I will say alot of you. I am trying to help you learn about a dog situation. It isnt anything about amatuer or pro, who's better than whoever. Just something on a possible to learn. Every dog that I work, teaches me something, wether or not minor or major. This can an could be a really good topic, because you will learn from a dog or this dog, even without watching it.

The breeding is very nice, trial calibur, but the guy doesnt care about trialing. This dog has a good head of sense, and a heck of a good nose, isnt really soft, was a touch at the start but figured things out easily.

Thanks Jonesy

[JohnBrink1]

I train labs and have no clue what flagging is so in my mind I see a pointer with the shipmans flag waving as if he is going to land a plane on an aircraft carrier!!!!!!! :lol::lol: I would suppose he is trying to tell the shooters "bird is over here, pay attention" but I am pretty sure I am not accurate!!! Rick:)

That is hilarious...i was thinking the same as I also train labs.

[Shotgun Kennel]

Tail wagging while on point. Not desirable only because of style. Some of mine have done it because they are unsure, too much pressure, or they are Trying to decide if they can take out the bird before I get to them. i also think some flag just because they are so excited and just can't contain their enthusiasm.

[crosswind]

Some are just that ,flaggers, no matter how they were broke out or whatever you do to them.
Could be from pigeons,could be pressure,could be from the gun, could be genetic also.
It could also go away on its own just as easy as it comes on sometimes.

[labdog99]

Well, from another lab guy........I would guess nervousness or confusion stemming from too much/improper pressure during steady to flush. Dog is associating bird with negitive pressure and is displaying a form of blinking. Close?

[slammer]

Could be:

Too much pressure around planted birds for a young dog. Not sure how long you worked him the first time but he was 8 months at the start. Even if he is back to you 6 months later he is still just 14 months old and he is being pushed to be broke.

or

He can handle the pressure but the pressure put on by 2 different handlers is creating extra stress and uncertainty. I witnessed this once with a 3 or 4 y/o setter that was a NSTRA dog and NSTRA broke but was not considered a reliable retirever so the owner sent him to be force broke. Dog is sent out and comes back 60 days later able to retrieve a truck if you ask him but he was totally down on his birds. About 6 months later he settled down but I believe he was the victim over handling from being moved about from handler to handler, being pushed to learn too fast and then perform too well all in a very short amount of time.

FYI: Jonsey is a very helpful guy and a good resource for advice. If he had a few trees where he lived I would probably send him a dog to work.

[JGF@Gratiot]

Not sure if this is the same situation, but I have seen where a dog who is a little loose to begin with just knows when to anticipate. He points the bird, and after he gets "staunch" to holding point, he realizes that no action happens until the boss gets out in front of him, so he doesn't tighten up until he hears or sees someone getting close to being out front. Kicking some weeds tightens em up, also try to use launchers so you are not always in front of him and the bird could go up at anytime, in an effort to at least simulate a wild bird. Like I said Jonesey, not sure if this was the situation, just one of my guesses. If he wasn't being honest on the liberated birds and tried ripping and caught some then he might also flag as someone else said. Johnathon

[Tecumseh]

I'd wager to guess that the owner spent a lot of time dickering around on flushing the pen-raised birds and forcing the dog to stay steady longer than it wanted and confused the dog a little. He still points, wants to hunt so his instincts and training are there but maybe the unnatural simulations are allowing the dog to feel a little unsure. Since the dog doesn't have to worry about a premature flushing bird he might be keying in on the handler instead and isn't fully getting all the thrills out of it. ?

[Merimac]

Too long of training sessions with liberated birds.

[tailcrackin]

Man, you guys are doing pretty good, I cant say just yet who is right an who is wrong, what I really like about the replies, is your thoughts on the pressure issues, and what could happen with them.
Now I promise I will explain teh what an why later tonight. I will add a few things to ponder.
the dog was shown a little bit by me, the owner has done 98% of the work. It does this on wild and pen raised birds.......sometimes longer sometimes shorter. The dog is past the trap stage, and working loose birds, cc is off and only being handled by the e-collar if needed, 99% of time it isnt. You guys are getting super warm......what would you try an do to attempt the fix, and why?
This is where it will make sense to you in the end, and will really help you out down the road with dog training, and learning from the dog.


You lab boys trying to be funny, lets say it is close to the same thing but with you lets say you are steadying on the line, allowing the dog to leave your side by its name, or back for the blinds......its been doin a good job, but all the sudden it starts getting vocal, or trying to.
Thanks Jonesy

[FindTheBird]

It'll be interesting to hear your solution. I don't think that I have the answer, but I do know that my pointer flags for 3-10 seconds on pen-raised birds birds before the tail becomes motionless, and flags very briefly on wild birds. The exception is when a wild bird starts running and he loses the scent, at which point he'll flag a little then start hunting again.
Building on what I've seen and what the other guys have said, it makes me wonder if the owner hasn't overdone it a bit with released birds during early training.
I'm reaching here, but perhaps one solution might be to train by popping birds out of a releaser just as soon as the dog hits first scent (while the dog is still moving) to make the dog think that any movement whatsoever is going cause the bird to flush?? On the flip-side, I've also hear that this type of training can lead to a lot of unproductives...

[slammer]

I would let him establish point then make flush attempts and fly pigeons over him but leave the planted bird down for 3 or 4 pigeons. The last flush would be the planted bird and it would get shot for the dog.

[tailcrackin]

This really cool, you guys are realy thinking beyond the 4 walls, not meaning a thing negative, all positives.

Ok you all have hit it in different circumstances, meaning what was done, was done with poor timing, meaning the dog was allowed to slip an fall a little, without the owner seeing it. Some was I guess an indirect pressure, along with bad timing.......dog was doing what it thought was right, owner was to slow on timing or recognizing that it wasnt right.

Now what has happened for starters, the dog was young an somewhat green to the whole ordeal.....so when he went up front to flush, he farted around to much, worrying about steadying......so dog would loosen up little bit, expecting the "something" to happen. Instead of just going up an popping teh bird, he spent way to much time.....[ at this point of training ] to produce the bird.

The dog has a great foundation done, but it isnt trusted yet, by itself, or the owner, meaning after the steadyness was getting somewhere, the owner never allowed the dog to slip purposly to test the bridge he built. So made the dog steady but not confident on why its steady. So when he would point whatever bird, he would be loose because he's not for sure if it is all correct, or the way it should be done, or the way dad wants it.

So what we done, with the foundation being done, and dog on loose birds, pen and or wild..ready for the next level....when it would slip [flag] and second guess its nose and confidence of its nose. I would walk in an tap it to release.....now the foundation is 100%, the confidence is 50% as dog is showing by loosening up. The dog moves every part of its body...but its feet. So basically saying.......dad I wanna get this bird so bad, I can taste it..but I cant move my feet because you taught me not to........so dog says he knows more than I,..... so, you wanna get it.....I walk over an let it.....go ahead, take it out. And it would blow a gasket every time, but each time the dog was corrected, you could see it tighten up on the next set up, today or tommorow. So it was doing two things at once, failing at second guessing its nose, but passing at understanding what had been asked, and taught. So the pressure to do everything right, was to much to fast, but when you backed off an swapped the dogs way of thinking, it help the issue straighten its self out. It built confidence by allowing the dog to do what he thought was better, but it wasnt, and let it get fairly corrected.
What I have found to work very well with me an the dogs I work, boogered or not. Have patience and good timing, expect the unexpected, we never know what will happen or when, so we gotta be fair, and ready. when you fart around an take long amounts of time to produce a bird for a young green dog, you open a door to slip, it is not ready for the time line, get it done so you can go on. When all teh foundtaion is built, then put teh dog in a situation to think it knows more than you.....but do that when the dog is ready. There isnt a time set to training, the 2 months with this dog wasnt enough, it got done to fast, it was fixable, but coulda really been bad. Hopefully this taught you guys a little bit on reading an working your dog. Everything happens for a reason, skipped step, done to fast, dog wasnt ready...something, it will always show, 1 way or another.....maybe wont show today, or tommorow, but it will sow somewhere, when you least expect it, promise. I am really proud of the replies, you guys done good.



retriever boys.....same thing when the dog starts gettin steady on the line, dont wait forever to send, that allows to much time to think and anticipate...that time, encourages the voice.....time will build, along with trust and confidence....vocals on the line are mostly pressure related issues....if dog is steady another thing you can do is step off the line, let dog see what its supposed to, step back over and send it....you stepping off the line, relieves the pressure in its mind, along with the vocals. Thanks Jonesy

[Tecumseh]

Tailcrackin, Pretty good idea of giving everyone an opportunity to brainstorm and discuss training. Nice to be able to think about this stuff during the summer.

[tailcrackin]

I am very happy the topic turned out the way it did.
A major thought in training, or fixing, move ahead when the dog is ready, a dog will always show you when its time, it doesnt matter what your buddy says, the dog will always tell you, you just gotta watch and think about what ya see.

Slammer that could be a good way to set up some tightness in the dog......but we gotta remember the whole program, not just the booger part being displayed.......dog is green on breaking process, it got broke in 2 mo. and isnt conf with itself, on what has been done.......when you start launching or tossing a bunch of birds, that is a major crack for the dog to fall into......because it isnt ready for that much birdwork, or control during. That make sense? he hasnt had enough time in breaking to start heading twards the polish work. in that situation, instead of the dog getting right, its probably gonna be more likely to fall apart.
Everything with dogs happen for a reason, if you watch they will show their selves, we pay attention to what we see, and the both of us are better off, keeps confusion, and blood pressure to a minimum.
Thanks Jonesy

[kek25]

Good example Dave.

[chewy]

so did you fix it???

i would just say how about you take my dog and fix his flagging/ butt wagging.. if you fix it i will pay you.. if you dont its a money back guarentee...


hmmmm now that is interesting...

[tailcrackin]

Yes it did, and I will not or would not post something that isnt the truth. There isnt any need on sugar coating what the dog is, or does........ You have to lie, to cover up a lie.....We discussed the issues privately, would you like to pull them out publicly? Hopefully, I made some sense in what we had discussed, I havent heard anything back....till now, so I am guessing that I did, because now it feels as if you wanna argue about this particualr issue. Patience is always a virtue with a dog. They are not all the same. As life in general........it all comes out in the wash. ;)
Thanks Jonesy

[chewy]

I am not arguing anything, and I dont know what you are talking about lying or anything like that.. and i have no idea what you are talking about private issues..

I was just making an offer. if you can fix it i will pay if you cant i wont pay.. Seems like a fair deal.

And I am sure anyone who has seen my dog Chewy would laugh that i offered it..

[chewy]

You never heard a reply back because i didnt feel like there was a need to reply..

I sent a pm to you..

And like i said before i think that what i offered was a fair deal...

[mark.n.chip]

My setter has done the same thing. what worked for me is to go back and use a trap and release the bird before I get there, varying the distances. the dog is just so excited to find the bird but doesn't stiffin up till i get there, releasing the bird at different times before i arrive has made him as stiff as a teenager befire the prom.