Crossbow vs Compound Bow

[bigcountrysg]

This is from www.bowhunting.net (http://www.bowhunting.net). Some of you will still claim it is bias.

I think it is good reading. With so many people voicing negativity against Crossbows. I am going to find as many tests, reports, and information to show that a crossbow is basically the same as a Compound Bow.

http://www.bowhunting.net/artman/publish/TenPointCrossbows/Crossbow_Myths.shtml

Some more good reading.
http://www.geocities.com/gunversation/bowsversuscrossbows/bowsversuscrossbows.htm


Now Michigan NEVER HAD A BOW SEASON that is not OPINION. That is pure fact.

It is time we bring all archery together. You have your method of hunting using a Traditional, Compound, CROSS, or other legal to hunt with bow. Bottom line is history has put all thes things into one category Archery. They all use an arrow style projectile. They all use knetic energy to fire there projectile. They all do take skill to use.

The biggest difference is a crossbow holds the draw for you.

I will tell you right now, I didn't write my state rep. I didn't contact any one that was voting on this matter. I really could careless either way. If someone can hunt with a bow and another hunt with a crossbow that is fine with me. I see this as an oppurtunity to allow more people to hunt.

It is showing already that more and more states are allowing Crossbows into there Archery seasons.

[butter21]

The biggest difference is a crossbow holds the draw for you.


That pretty much sums it up. But the crossgun is closer a gun then it is to a bow.

This is what i do when gun hunting...

1. Load gun
2. Set it down till deer comes
3. See deer
4. Bring gun up
5. Aim at deer
6. Click safety off
7. Pull Trigger

Now this is what i do bow hunting...

1. Cock arrow
2. Set bow down/hang it/hold it
3. See deer
4. Pull it back
5. Hold at full draw
6. Aim at deer
7. Let arrow fly

Now this is what i WOULD do if i was to use a crossbow...

1. Cock arrow
2. Pull the bow back
3. Make sure its locked into position
4. Set it down till deer comes
5. See deer
6. Bring crossbow up
7. Aim at deer
8. Click safety off
9. Pull trigger

As you can see its just like a gun the only difference is that it shoots as far as a compound bow would.

[Buckeye Dan]

That pretty much sums it up. But the crossgun is closer a gun then it is to a bow.

This is what i do when gun hunting...

1. Load gun
2. Set it down till deer comes
3. See deer
4. Bring gun up
5. Aim at deer
6. Click safety off
7. Pull Trigger

Now this is what i do bow hunting...

1. Cock arrow
2. Set bow down/hang it/hold it
3. See deer
4. Pull it back
5. Hold at full draw
6. Aim at deer
7. Let arrow fly

Now this is what i WOULD do if i was to use a crossbow...

1. Cock arrow
2. Pull the bow back
3. Make sure its locked into position
4. Set it down till deer comes
5. See deer
6. Bring crossbow up
7. Aim at deer
8. Click safety off
9. Pull trigger

As you can see its just like a gun the only difference is that it shoots as far as a compound bow would.

Thank you for those accurate and in depth descriptions of both types of bows functions/techniques. Now that we know my weapon shoots like a gun and I want to take a whitetail deer in a humane manner with the same range limitations as a compound bow...What can you offer me for advice in getting that quarry into the range of my crossbow for a clean humane kill?
You seem to have a fine hunting ethic and wisdom that is rare these days.

[marty]

He forgot that bang part too:lol::lol: Don't they all.:yikes:

Spin away spin away;)

Crossbow is not a rifle. Get over that stuff. It's a myth :D

[IceDaddy]

[QUOTE=butter21;2166832]That pretty much sums it up. But the crossgun is closer a gun then it is to a bow.

This is what i do when gun hunting...

1. Load gun
2. Set it down till deer comes
3. See deer
4. Bring gun up
5. Aim at deer
6. Click safety off
7. Pull Trigger

Now this is what i do bow hunting...

1. Cock arrow
2. Set bow down/hang it/hold it
3. See deer
4. Pull it back (until it hits that magic 80% let off)
5. Hold at full draw (for as long as i like 80% let off)
6. Aim at deer Looking through my red dot scope.
6a. (Pull Trigger)
7. Let arrow fly

Now this is what i WOULD do if i was to use a crossbow...

1. Cock arrow
2. Pull the bow back
3. Make sure its locked into position
4. Set it down till deer comes
5. See deer
6. Bring crossbow up
7. Aim at deer
8. Click safety off
9. Pull trigger

As you can see "compound bows and xbows" are just like a gun the only difference is that bows/x bows are short distance weapons.

Doctored it up, to tell the whole story..:lol:

[BigBirdVA]

Fact - Compound hunters are using a device invented for handicapped people.

Fact - Over the years the compound is even easier to use than it was back when it was first allowed in archery season.

Fact - If you're not handicapped then why do you use a compound? It's easier to use than a stick bow is why millions use a handicapped bow.

Fact - There is no logical reason to exclude a proven similar weapon. It is greed or reluctance to change.

Fact - Not one state has reversed xbow use once allowed.

Fact - Not one season has been reduced or bag limit changed because of xbow use.


Now if the anti side would like to present some facts - NOT FEELINGS or SPECULATION I'm all ears. How many on here against xbow use have hunted or taken a deer with one? How many have seen first hand archery season before and after the addition of xbow use for all? And you still feel qualified to comment?


Oh guns go "BANG" bows go "TWANG".

http://members.cox.net/4seasons/evolution.jpg

[marty]

Oh guns go "BANG" bows go "TWANG".

http://members.cox.net/4seasons/evolution.jpg


Yep that's the big difference guns kill by shocking power. Crossbows and compounds kill by blood loss. I'm sure everyone has seen the devastation of what a bullet does to a whitetail verus a broadhead.:D

hey where did you get a pic of my family tree??

[TOW]

There are numerous pros and cons of shooting and hutning with any type of archery equipment.

Accuracy


Shooting off hand the compound wins hands down. That is proven out at any archery event where the compounds and crossbows shoot the same targets. If the crossbower can use a rest (not always possible in a deer hunting situation) then the tables are reversed.

Although a hunting tool’s good accuracy is a positive and not a negative desire.


Trajectory


In most bow hunting conditions (less than 25 yards) there is no difference as both the compound bow and crossbow will generate approximately the same feet per second and kinetic energy. Downrange the compound will win hands down as the shorter arrow of a crossbow does not stabilize as well and will lose feet per second in speed and KE faster than a compound bow shot (longer) arrow as it attempts to correct itself in flight.


Weight


Most bare crossbows weigh in at right around 6 pounds. That is close to the weight of a lot of rifles and shotguns. The bare compound bows weigh in much less at 3 to 3 ½ pounds. Not a big deal unless one is also packing in a stand, ladder or other equipment. Or hot footing it up and down mountains chasing elk/mule deer out West.


Clearances


Because of the horizontal limbs a crossbow is much harder to pack into the woods on the way to the stand or still hunting. When hunting from a treestand the horizontal limbs have a major conflict with the vertical tree we are in. It is extremely difficult to shoot behind the treestand as the limbs and string will not allow the crossbow to be up against the tree like a compound bow would.


Drawing/Shooting in the Presence of Game


The crossbow has a slight advantage in this area. The string is back in a firing position before game is approaching. How much of an advantage is debatable as several things come into play.

1) Being 20 to 25 foot up a tree when attempting to draw a compound bow will lessen a deer’s ability to see you.

2) Bows are usually 75 to 90 percent let off so one can draw on a deer much sooner and hold longer to make a killing shot with less worry about the deer seeing you. Mike Beatty drew and held on the new world record non-typical buck for a full 3 minute before making the shot. That bow was a 85% let off. There is a bow on the market that is 99% let off where one can draw the bow as soon as game is spotted and they can wait for however long it takes for that animal to approach the shooting area.

3) A number of hunters that use ground blinds are using a blind called Double Bull, “Doghouse”, etc that allows one to draw and shoot through a curtain and never be seen by the animal.

4) Most bowhunters learn when and when not to draw on a deer. IE – when it’s head is behind a bush or tree or allowing the deer to walk past them and shoot them quartering away.

Both pieces of equipment have to be raised into a shooting position. Only the compound has to be drawn. That draw should be straight back and covered somewhat by the bow and bow quiver (if one is on the bow). That is unless the person drawing the bow is seriously over-bowed and has to horse it back with great exaggerated movements..

Regardless of the perceived advantage of “not having to draw back a crossbow” the kill percentages are identical for compounds and crossbows. THAT is where the rubber meets the road.




Ease of Mastery


The crossbow would have an edge here. More so if the individual had some previous rifle shooting experience. Irregardless, a “newbie” just starting out with either piece of equipment can be shooting hunting accuracy (all arrows in a 6 inch circle) within two hours *IF* properly instructed. Maintaining proficiency would also go to the crossbow.

Ease of mastery is irrelevant to the hunting aspect. Being a master of your equipment has nothing to do with how good a hunter you are. It only has to do with what kind of shot you are with the equipment at hand should that shot present itself.

There is very little difference in mastering a crossbow and a compound. There is a MAJOR difference in mastering a stickbow as opposed to either a crossbow or a compound. If the difficulty mastering the hunting tool is used a yardstick for archery hunting then the season would have to be limited to traditional only.

[butter21]

[quote=butter21;2166832]That pretty much sums it up. But the crossgun is closer a gun then it is to a bow.

This is what i do when gun hunting...

1. Load gun
2. Set it down till deer comes
3. See deer
4. Bring gun up
5. Aim at deer
6. Click safety off
7. Pull Trigger

Now this is what i do bow hunting...

1. Cock arrow
2. Set bow down/hang it/hold it
3. See deer
4. Pull it back (until it hits that magic 80% let off)
5. Hold at full draw (for as long as i like 80% let off)
6. Aim at deer Looking through my red dot scope.
6a. (Pull Trigger)
7. Let arrow fly

Now this is what i WOULD do if i was to use a crossbow...

1. Cock arrow
2. Pull the bow back
3. Make sure its locked into position
4. Set it down till deer comes
5. See deer
6. Bring crossbow up
7. Aim at deer
8. Click safety off
9. Pull trigger

As you can see "compound bows and xbows" are just like a gun the only difference is that bows/x bows are short distance weapons.

Doctored it up, to tell the whole story..:lol:
YOU DONT HAVE TO HOLD ANYTHING BACK WOW GOOD POINT YOU MADE THERE!!!!!!!!

[TJD]

Maybe it's called a crossbow because it is like a "cross" between a gun and a vertical bow.;)

You can rest a crossbow on something for a steady shot.

You don't have to draw and hold back to aim and shoot.

It's cocked and ready to fire with a flip of the safety.

You shoulder it, put your cheek against the stock, and look through a scope to fire.

You can walk along through the woods with a crossbow shouldered and ready to fire.

You can shoot a crossbow from a prone position(lying on the ground).

There are just too many similarities to a firearm. The crossbow belongs in a different season.

[butter21]

Maybe it's called a crossbow because it is like a "cross" between a gun and a vertical bow.;)

You can rest a crossbow on something for a steady shot.

You don't have to draw and hold back to aim and shoot.

It's cocked and ready to fire with a flip of the safety.

You shoulder it, put your cheek against the stock, and look through a scope to fire.

You can walk along through the woods with a crossbow shouldered and ready to fire.

You can shoot a crossbow from a prone position(lying on the ground).

There are just too many similarities to a firearm. The crossbow belongs in a different season.
QFT could not agree more!!!

[Liv4Huntin']

Please tell me...... how do you 'cock' an arrow????? You said that's what you do when you 'bow hunt'..... sounds like you're confusing your compound bow with your gun ... eh?
~ m ~

[butter21]

Please tell me...... how do you 'cock' an arrow????? You said that's what you do when you 'bow hunt'..... sounds like you're confusing your compound bow with your gun ... eh?
~ m ~
put it on the string so that the COCK vane is where its suppose to be. Sounds to me like you have no clue what your talking about.

[Munsterlndr]

Maybe it's called a crossbow because it is like a "cross" between a gun and a vertical bow.;)

You can rest a crossbow on something for a steady shot.

You don't have to draw and hold back to aim and shoot.

It's cocked and ready to fire with a flip of the safety.

You shoulder it, put your cheek against the stock, and look through a scope to fire.

You can walk along through the woods with a crossbow shouldered and ready to fire.

You can shoot a crossbow from a prone position(lying on the ground).

There are just too many similarities to a firearm. The crossbow belongs in a different season.

:lol: You guys kill me!

Um, the crossbow predates the development of "guns" by a good thousand years. Now why would it be named after something that did not even exist? It is called a crossbow because it's a type of bow and the transverse nature of the limbs in relation to the tiller makes the shape of a cross. Pretty obvious unless your a mental midget.

From reading the rest of your points I'm guessing that you have never hunted with one, right?

You can rest a vertical bow, try googling "steady ready", does that make a vertical bow a gun?

Do you walk through the woods holding a firearm to your shoulder? Seems like a pretty funny way to hunt if you ask me.

Why would you lie on the ground in a prone position? Think about it. How many times do you shoot a firearm from a prone position when your target is under 30 yards away? A much more likely position for a close range shot when still hunting is leaning around a tree to get a shot. You can do that with a vertical bow and use the tree to block most of your body from view. Now try that with a crossbow that as limbs sticking out 18" on either side. Not going to happen.

You mentioned a few points of similarities between crossbows and guns, how about painting the complete picture.

Crossbows use arrows, not bullets and are a short range weapon.

Crossbow use the energy stored in limbs, transferred to an arrow by a string to propel the projectile, just as other forms of bows do. Firearms use the combustion of gunpowder to transfer energy to small caliber projectiles.

Crossbows and vertical bows have essentially the same effective range and impart similar amounts of energy. Firearms provide substantially longer range and significantly more energy is transferred to the target.

As far as the crossbow belonging in a different season, well it used to be a debatable point but that is becoming rapidly moot. You can thank the MBH and MTB for that. If bow hunting organizations had showed some flexibility regarding disabled criteria, crossbows for seniors or youths or even a one week stand-alone general crossbow season I can confidently say that Michigan would not be currently facing full inclusion. MBH took a "line in the sand" attitude to crossbows. That was their privilege but they should not be surprised to find that the push back to that attitude results in full inclusion.

[Liv4Huntin']

put it on the string so that the COCK vane is where its suppose to be. Sounds to me like you have no clue what your talking about.
I believe you mean 'NOCK' an arrow......:) But that's OK. We understand.
~ m ~

[IceDaddy]

Years ago when they first started an "Archery" season do you really think they knew one day we would have compounds with roll over cams that would take 80% of the strain of pulling a bow back, 350fps speed,red dot scopes, trigger release aids,I say No, they never dreampt that in a million years, But yet in certain area's there are more deer now than ever before. Either we are worse hunters now, or the whitetail deer is highly elusive therfore would it really matter if they add xbows?

Also when they first started Muzzleloader season it was all patch and ball, with about a 50 yard effective range, iron site type of weapon, Today the market is In-line, scoped "rifle" type of muzzleloader's with a 200yd effective range, Yet once again, the whitetail herd is out of control in many area's of the state.

With an animal that is highly adaptable, I don't believe crossbows will even put a dent into there population.

My thoughts are, With more and more land being developed all the time,People know that one day using a shotgun in southern michigan may become a thing of the past. I hate to admit it. But think about it. If we have highly accurate killing types of archery equipment. Then that's the way to go.

[Liv4Huntin']

Great Post, Ice Daddy !! Probably something some have never considered.
~ m ~

[butter21]

Yea why not just go all the way make it 100% let off like crossbows.

[swampbuck]

Yea why not just go all the way make it 100% let off like crossbows.

exactly what we are doing.:D

[butter21]

exactly what we are doing.:D
Yea why dont you just do that during gun season?

[swampbuck]

Because a crossbow is archery equipment and belongs in ARCHERY SEASON. And it will be!!!! hopefully this year but if not it WILL happen next year. So get over it already.

[butter21]

Because a crossbow is archery equipment and belongs in ARCHERY SEASON. And it will be!!!! hopefully this year but if not it WILL happen next year. So get over it already.
IT WONT happen this year and, i wouldnt assume its going to be anyway.

[Liv4Huntin']

Yea why not just go all the way make it 100% let off like crossbows.

You already have 99% let-off bows. If you want, check them out. You may learn something new. http://www.conceptarchery.com/
~ m ~

[TJD]

Now why would it be named after something that did not even exist? It is called a crossbow because it's a type of bow and the transverse nature of the limbs in relation to the tiller makes the shape of a cross. Pretty obvious unless your a mental midget.

Well, maybe you missed the ;) at the end of the first sentence. I realize that the crossbow predates the development of the firearm. I was just using a little humor. I do find it amusing that you seem to throw out insults at anyone who disagrees with your opinions, like it was going to help your argument.

From reading the rest of your points I'm guessing that you have never hunted with one, right?

Nope, I have not hunted with a crossbow. I have handled and shot them enough though to know that they have many similarities to a firearm. Also, I know two different people that have harvested deer in Michigan with a crossbow. One is disabled and has a permit. The other used one in firearm season to kill a couple does. I've talked to him several times regarding HB5741. He is opposed to it and believes that crossbow use should remain in firearm season.

You can rest a vertical bow, try googling "steady ready", does that make a vertical bow a gun?

I love the crazy accessories that you come up with to try to downplay the differences between vertical bows and crossbows. Keep em coming!:lol:

Do you walk through the woods holding a firearm to your shoulder? Seems like a pretty funny way to hunt if you ask me.

Haven't you ever heard of still hunting/stalking or maybe even deer drives? The point is that you can walk along with a ready to fire weapon, which requires minimal time and movement to aim and shoot, very similar to a firearm in that regard.


Why would you lie on the ground in a prone position? Think about it. How many times do you shoot a firearm from a prone position when your target is under 30 yards away?

It seems like stalking in a grass field or similar cover from a prone position would be easier to sneak up on a deer than to walk upright directly towards it. I know that I've bellycrawled through a field and shot a deer with my shotgun.

Crossbows use arrows, not bullets and are a short range weapon.

Crossbows use bolts. Vertical bows use arrows. Guns use bullets.


Crossbow use the energy stored in limbs, transferred to an arrow by a string to propel the projectile, just as other forms of bows do. Firearms use the combustion of gunpowder to transfer energy to small caliber projectiles.

Crossbows and vertical bows have essentially the same effective range and impart similar amounts of energy. Firearms provide substantially longer range and significantly more energy is transferred to the target.

As far as the crossbow belonging in a different season, well it used to be a debatable point but that is becoming rapidly moot. You can thank the MBH and MTB for that. If bow hunting organizations had showed some flexibility regarding disabled criteria, crossbows for seniors or youths or even a one week stand-alone general crossbow season I can confidently say that Michigan would not be currently facing full inclusion. MBH took a "line in the sand" attitude to crossbows. That was their privilege but they should not be surprised to find that the push back to that attitude results in full inclusion.

Yep. The crossbow does have some similarites to a vertical bow, just as it has many similarities to a firearm. That is exactly the reason for my opinion that it should fall somewhere between a firearm and a vertical bow. Not an equal to a firearm, and not an equal to a vertical bow.

[IceDaddy]

Yep. The crossbow does have some similarites to a vertical bow, just as it has many similarities to a firearm. That is exactly the reason for my opinion that it should fall somewhere between a firearm and a vertical bow. Not an equal to a firearm, and not an equal to a vertical bow.


Cool, then you would be all for the first three weeks of October Bow, the next three weeks xbow, then 2 weeks of firearm, two weeks of muzzleloader. then a free for all up until the end of december? :lol:

[bigcountrysg]

Well I started this thread just for these types of posts. That way we are not clogging up other members posts about voting and writing your state reps and what not.

[IceDaddy]

If I use a xbow I am lazy and not a true Archery hunter, But if I use a Vertical bow with a 99% let-off I am a true hunter. Lets see, If it was a 100lb bow and I had it at full draw I would be holding 1lb of force, I am guessing,,, If the deer were at 150 yards out when you first saw them, and you pulled it back ,you could be a full draw for a LONG,LONG time. But yet that that's different??? Please explain.:rolleyes:

[butter21]

If I use a xbow I am lazy and not a true Archery hunter, But if I use a Vertical bow with a 99% let-off I am a true hunter. Lets see, If it was a 100lb bow and I had it at full draw I would be holding 1lb of force, I am guessing,,, If the deer were at 150 yards out when you first saw them, and you pulled it back ,you could be a full draw for a LONG,LONG time. But yet that that's different??? Please explain.:rolleyes:
Why dont you do that then, instead of using a crossbow if thats so easy for you to do. All you people are trying to do is play up on a compound bow to make is sound like its the same as a crossbow. All i can say is if you can get all these things on a compound bow why dont you do that then you wouldnt need a crossbow? :rolleyes:

[Munsterlndr]

Nope, I have not hunted with a crossbow. I have handled and shot them enough though to know that they have many similarities to a firearm. Also, I know two different people that have harvested deer in Michigan with a crossbow. One is disabled and has a permit. The other used one in firearm season to kill a couple does. I've talked to him several times regarding HB5741. He is opposed to it and believes that crossbow use should remain in firearm season. If you had actually used one in a hunting situation then you would know that it is a lot different then sitting in your back yard shooting bolts at a bale of hay. The challenge of trying not to bump branches or trees with a weapon that is 3.5 feet wide, while trying to line up to get a shot should not be dismissed. Your example of crawling through the grass is a good example. Easy to do with a shotgun cradled in your arms or held in one hand. Try and do that with a crossbow and you will find it much tougher. Walking through the woods with your weapon ready, a crossbow is probably at the most disadvantage between it, a long bow and a firearm. An instinctual shooter using a long bow probably has the best chance under 20 yards. Bring the bow up while drawing and as soon as you hit that anchor point, fire. One smooth, seamless motion. Fred Bear never held his bow at full draw for a second, it was just draw and fire. The next best weapon would be an iron sighted brush gun like a short barreled carbine. Same motion, bring the gun to your shoulder, find the target and fire. Now use a crossbow. 8 lbs or so with all of the weight out at the end. They are not balanced like a carbine is. Swing it up and then try and find the animal in the scope at 20 yards. Not an easy task. In the scenario that you present, a crossbow is at a decided disadvantage over the other two weapons. They are not well suited for snap shooting.

I love the crazy accessories that you come up with to try to downplay the differences between vertical bows and crossbows. Keep em coming!:lol:
I did not come up with them, they were invented by and for your vertical bow hunting brethren, you know those super ethical, epitome of fair chase hunters who never take the easy way out. ;):lol:

Haven't you ever heard of still hunting/stalking or maybe even deer drives? The point is that you can walk along with a ready to fire weapon, which requires minimal time and movement to aim and shoot, very similar to a firearm in that regard.

It seems like stalking in a grass field or similar cover from a prone position would be easier to sneak up on a deer than to walk upright directly towards it. I know that I've belly crawled through a field and shot a deer with my shotgun.
See above, you have obviously never tried this with a crossbow. :rolleyes: Btw, why were you using a shotgun, I thought only the lazy use guns or crossbows. Don't real hunters always use vertical bows? ;)

Crossbows use bolts. Vertical bows use arrows. Guns use bullets.

Actually modern crossbows are more likely to use projectiles that have all of the characteristics of arrows than what historically were used in crossbow bolts. But feel free to split hairs if you think it somehow strengthens your argument. The main point is that neither vertical bows or crossbows use bullets. Why? Because they are not guns. ;)

Yep. The crossbow does have some similarites to a vertical bow, just as it has many similarities to a firearm. That is exactly the reason for my opinion that it should fall somewhere between a firearm and a vertical bow. Not an equal to a firearm, and not an equal to a vertical bow.

Since crossbows predate firearms, it would be more accurate for you to say that firearms have many similarities to crossbows, not the reverse, since crossbows were the proto-type that firearms were derived from, just as vertical bows were the proto-type that crossbows evolved from and just as spears or atlatl's were the proto-type that bows evolved from.

But just because the arrow fired from a vertical bow has a long shaft that is tipped with a bladed head and it evolved from the spear, that does not make a vertical bow a spear.
The arrows fired from both vertical and cross bows are virtually identical except for a slight difference in weight and length. That is because the two weapons are simply minor variations on a theme, as are footbows.

You admit that the crossbow is someplace between a gun and a bow, yet your MBH/MTB brethren have been lobbying for years to make sure that it's lumped into the same season as a firearm, despite the fact that, as you say, it's not the same as a gun. Had they exhibited any degree of flexibility, it's pretty likely that Michigan would not be facing crossbows in archery season but would be looking at some other accommodation short of full inclusion. But that's in the past and they did not choose to go that route. You reap what you sow and in this case the harvest is drawing near. :lol:

[marty]

Why dont you do that then, instead of using a crossbow if thats so easy for you to do. All you people are trying to do is play up on a compound bow to make is sound like its the same as a crossbow. All i can say is if you can get all these things on a compound bow why dont you do that then you wouldnt need a crossbow? :rolleyes:

Becuase they are people who can't draw a coumpound bow back and they have to sit out. Is that fair by you?? Munster built a cool looking crossbow. Just like the fellow who make a long bow shouldn't he be allow to use his crossbow just like the fellow that makes his own bow??

being a bowhunter isn't about the choice of weapon and using a xbow doesn't make nobody lazy. After a few years all this will die down and hunters will see there was nothing to fear in the first place:D

[Munsterlndr]

All i can say is if you can get all these things on a compound bow why dont you do that then you wouldnt need a crossbow? :rolleyes:

You make the flawed assumption that just because a hunter wants to use a crossbow that A) they are not currently using a vertical bow and B) that they might continue to also use a vertical bow in the future.

Crossbows simply give a hunter another option.

I own 2 compounds, one of which I just purchased 2 weeks ago. I'll be hunting with the new one this fall. I also have a crossbow that I built. If legalized for archery deer season and for Turkey hunting, I'll use it. Will I use it every time I go out? Nope. I'll use a vertical bow sometimes, too. No different then during firearms season. I'm a gear nut. I've got half a dozen different center fire rifles and a couple of pistols that all see action at various times during deer season. Sometimes I hunt from a tree stand with my .357 iron sighted Taurus revolver. Sometimes I still hunt in the swamp with my Ruger. 44 Mag carbine with fiber optic sights. Sometimes I sit in a heated blind with my .270 or .250 savage and pop a doe at 100 yards. During muzzle loading, sometimes I use My scoped .50 Encore and sometimes I use a .54 iron sighted Hawken with round balls.

Variety is the spice of life and I immensely enjoy using different weapons for different applications. Nothing different with crossbows. The weapon that I choose to employ on any particular day does not dictate my ethics, my woodcraft or my sense of fair chase. Those are internal qualities and something as superficial as the type of weapon that I happen to be holding in my hand has no bearing on them.

Quit being so judgmental about hunters and people that you have never even met and have no idea what their reason for choosing a particular weapon may be.

[butter21]

Becuase they are people who can't draw a coumpound bow back and they have to sit out. Is that fair by you?? Munster built a cool looking crossbow. Just like the fellow who make a long bow shouldn't he be allow to use his crossbow just like the fellow that makes his own bow??

being a bowhunter isn't about the choice of weapon and using a xbow doesn't make nobody lazy. After a few years all this will die down and hunters will see there was nothing to fear in the first place:D
If you know someone that is disabled and can not pull back a compound bow i would tell them to fill out an application to be able to use a crossbow.

What does building bows and building crossbows have anything to do with this. If i build a muzzleloader can i go hunting with it during bow season just b/c you build it doesn't mean we change the rules for hunting with it. You could use it during gun season.

[butter21]

You make the flawed assumption that just because a hunter wants to use a crossbow that A) they are not currently using a vertical bow and B) that they might continue to also use a vertical bow in the future.

Crossbows simply give a hunter another option.

I own 2 compounds, one of which I just purchased 2 weeks ago. I'll be hunting with the new one this fall. I also have a crossbow that I built. If legalized for archery deer season and for Turkey hunting, I'll use it. Will I use it every time I go out? Nope. I'll use a vertical bow sometimes, too. No different then during firearms season. I'm a gear nut. I've got half a dozen different center fire rifles and a couple of pistols that all see action at various times during deer season. Sometimes I hunt from a tree stand with my .357 iron sighted Taurus revolver. Sometimes I still hunt in the swamp with my Ruger. 44 Mag carbine with fiber optic sights. Sometimes I sit in a heated blind with my .270 or .250 savage and pop a doe at 100 yards. During muzzle loading, sometimes I use My scoped .50 Encore and sometimes I use a .54 iron sighted Hawken with round balls.

Variety is the spice of life and I immensely enjoy using different weapons for different applications. Nothing different with crossbows. The weapon that I choose to employ on any particular day does not dictate my ethics, my woodcraft or my sense of fair chase. Those are internal qualities and something as superficial as the type of weapon that I happen to be holding in my hand has no bearing on them.

Quit being so judgmental about hunters and people that you have never even met and have no idea what their reason for choosing a particular weapon may be.
You can use your crossbow during gun season if you really would like to take a deer with it.

[TJD]

You admit that the crossbow is someplace between a gun and a bow, yet your MBH/MTB brethren have been lobbying for years to make sure that it's lumped into the same season as a firearm, despite the fact that, as you say, it's not the same as a gun. Had they exhibited any degree of flexibility, it's pretty likely that Michigan would not be facing crossbows in archery season but would be looking at some other accommodation short of full inclusion. But that's in the past and they did not choose to go that route. You reap what you sow and in this case the harvest is drawing near. :lol:

I hope you are not assuming that any person that is against full inclusion of the crossbow is a card carrying member of MBH/MTB.

Unlike MBH, I am pro-OBR. I also just happen to be against full inclusion of crossbows. I would fully support lowering the disabilty requirements and allowing senior citizens to use them.

Also, where are you getting these assumptions that I have called crossbow users "lazy"? I told you that I know two people that have used crossbows to harvest deer in Michigan. One of them is a good friend.

[butter21]

You admit that the crossbow is someplace between a gun and a bow, yet your MBH/MTB brethren have been lobbying for years to make sure that it's lumped into the same season as a firearm, despite the fact that, as you say, it's not the same as a gun. Had they exhibited any degree of flexibility, it's pretty likely that Michigan would not be facing crossbows in archery season but would be looking at some other accommodation short of full inclusion. But that's in the past and they did not choose to go that route. You reap what you sow and in this case the harvest is drawing near. :lol:
You just said that its between a gun and a bow and that its been lumped into the gun category. Now your saying that it should be lumped into the bow category.

[Munsterlndr]

You can use your crossbow during gun season if you really would like to take a deer with it.

Yep, I might. And your point is?

Fred Bear used his bow during firearms season prior to 1938. Using your logic there was no reason for him to lobby for the opportunity to be able to use his bow in a season outside of the firearms season since he already had the opportunity to hunt during those two weeks.

No difference with crossbows. Why should they be restricted to firearms season when other varieties of bows that have the same silent characteristics and use almost identical projectiles and means of propulsion are able to be used outside of firearms season. No matter how you define them, crossbows are not guns. They should not be lumped in with firearms season, since they are not firearms.

[marty]

If you know someone that is disabled and can not pull back a compound bow i would tell them to fill out an application to be able to use a crossbow.

What does building bows and building crossbows have anything to do with this. If i build a muzzleloader can i go hunting with it during bow season just b/c you build it doesn't mean we change the rules for hunting with it. You could use it during gun season.

You know nothing about the current permit system do you?? It not that easy
last year a fellow here had an injury which left him unable to hunt but under current law he cannot get a permit. So he doesn't get to hunt. That's not right is it??

Why does one have to use it during gun season? If I built a bow I think I would use it in archery:lol: Yes in some places you could use a muzzleloader during what you call" bow" season? ever hunt in december??

Same if I built a muzzleloader I would use it in blackpowder

Crossbows belong in archery season. After a while the hoopla will die down and hunters will accept them as they do the compound

[Munsterlndr]

You just said that its between a gun and a bow and that its been lumped into the gun category. Now your saying that it should be lumped into the bow category.

It's more like a vertical bow than it is a gun because the means and method of killing game are virtually identical. We currently have a firearms season and archery season. A crossbow is not a firearm, hence it should not be restricted to firearms season. It is a type of bow, hence it should be in archery season. In the past I have proposed a stand alone crossbow season, using your logic that it is not a firearm and not the exact same as a bow and deserving of it's own season. The suggestion was overwhelmingly opposed by vertical bow users. The only season that they were grudgingly willing to have crossbows in was firearms season. This has been the long standing stance of MBH/MTB/MLA and they have lobbied actively against any changes to that status. Had they been a little more accommodating, we would not be in the situation we are now in facing, which is full inclusion.

[Munsterlndr]

I hope you are not assuming that any person that is against full inclusion of the crossbow is a card carrying member of MBH/MTB.

Unlike MBH, I am pro-OBR. I also just happen to also be against full inclusion of crossbows. I would fully support lowering the disabilty requirements and allowing senior citizens to use them.

Also, where are you getting these assumptions that I have called crossbow users "lazy"? I told you that I know two people that have used crossbows to harvest deer in Michigan. One of them is a good friend.

Whether or not you belong to MBH/MTB/MLA is kind of moot. In opposing crossbows, they happen to be your bed partners. They claim to be the official representatives of Michigan's bow hunting fraternity. I guess you missed their memo. ;) Up until now most Michigan bow hunters have passively allowed those groups to be their mouthpiece. Had more of them vocally opposed the MBH on the crossbow issue and on topics like OBR, then maybe things would have turned out differently. But bow hunters ceded control to MBH and despite the fact that their membership has dwindled to around 1,000 members, they still carry a disproportionate amount of influence with the NRC. Did you contact the NRC and complain that too many MBH/MTB members were named to the ad-hoc crossbow committee charged with looking at the disability issue? If not then you should not have been surprised when their recommendation not to reduce the 80% disability level required for a permit mirrored the official MBH/MTB stance.

If you call crossbow hunters lazy, I apologize. I must have confused you with the other 99% of the crossbow critics posting in this forum. :lol:

BTW, MBH is wrong on the crossbow issue and they are equally wrong on OBR. In both cases they ignore factual data and instead base their opinions on emotion and fear tactics. A leopard does not change it's spots. ;)

[butter21]

Yep, I might. And your point is?

Fred Bear used his bow during firearms season prior to 1938. Using your logic there was no reason for him to lobby for the opportunity to be able to use his bow in a season outside of the firearms season since he already had the opportunity to hunt during those two weeks.

No difference with crossbows. Why should they be restricted to firearms season when other varieties of bows that have the same silent characteristics and use almost identical projectiles and means of propulsion are able to be used outside of firearms season. No matter how you define them, crossbows are not guns. They should not be lumped in with firearms season, since they are not firearms.
And they shouldnt be lumped with bow season either then. I would support having a crossbow season. :) Definition of a bow is “one that is hand held, hand drawn, and released with nothing attached to the bow that will allow the bow to be mechanically held in a drawn or cocked position.”

[BigBirdVA]

The draw issue is the one and only point the anti's can dwell on. All other factors and data from it's use say it's the same so back they go to the old tried and proven draw issue. Well if drawing is such a big deal them why not make ground blinds illegal? Can a deer see you draw in one? No it makes a compound hunter in a blind on equal ground with an xbow. Every time I point this out I've yet to get a response back from the anti crowd. I don't imagine this time will be any different. :dizzy:

[Swamp Ghost]

The draw issue is the one and only point the anti's can dwell on. All other factors and data from it's use say it's the same so back they go to the old tried and proven draw issue. Well if drawing is such a big deal them why not make ground blinds illegal? Can a deer see you draw in one? No it makes a compound hunter in a blind on equal ground with an xbow. Every time I point this out I've yet to get a response back from the anti crowd. I don't imagine this time will be any different. :dizzy:

As much as I hate accessory and hunting method sidetracks, here it goes.

Have you hunted on the ground with a bow, even in a blind? I have spent a considerable amount of time hunting on the ground.

Can you not see (should say admit) the advantage of merely shouldering a weapon over having to come to full draw and then holding that draw for any amount of time?

Movement is not the only thing concealed with a crossbow when you are in close quarters with a deer.

Ever draw a bow in an enclosed blind? The sound associated with drawing a bow is greatly amplified. On more than one occasion I have had deer react to the sounds associated with coming to full draw even in a treestand and my bows are what I consider extremely quiet. Deer don't need to see the movement, they can hear it.

As much as it pains some to admit it, the compound is, in every way, a bow. A crossbow is, in every way, a crossbow. They are fundamentally different weapons.

Asked and answered. Advantage, crossbow.

[marty]

The draw issue is the one and only point the anti's can dwell on. All other factors and data from it's use say it's the same so back they go to the old tried and proven draw issue. Well if drawing is such a big deal them why not make ground blinds illegal? Can a deer see you draw in one? No it makes a compound hunter in a blind on equal ground with an xbow. Every time I point this out I've yet to get a response back from the anti crowd. I don't imagine this time will be any different. :dizzy:

ain't that the truth. :D

[BigBirdVA]

Asked and answered. Advantage, crossbow.Sound associated with drawing? Fix your noise issue. Now who's the lazy hunter? That's almost too funny to even read. Sound associated with the safety clicking off? We xbow guys have to work on that too. 2 different noise issues, 2 different solutions. That's if you want to fix them. Sorry but I hunted with a compound for over 30 years. Sell someone else on the noise from drawing a bow (let alone in a DB blind where it's muffled) to someone else. :lol:

Ever hear of Moleskin? That a little lube and some time spent fixing cam and limb noise issues and it's 100% silent. I have my own bow press and string jig and made what ever it took to get the result I was looking for. I rebuilt too many compounds to know you can make one totally silent on the draw.

[IceDaddy]

Funny I came to full daw, with three buck's and a doe in very, very close
in fact the buck I killed was trying to keep the other two away from the doe
when I shot him he was at 5yards from the base of my tree. They (all 4) never detected any sound or movement, of coarse all of them had their minds pre ocupied, Now that I think back, It should be illeagal to hunt during the chase phase, That poor buck had his mind on one thing and only one thing and he completly forgot that there are predator's that could kill him.
Advandage compound, (even use a whisker biscut, that many claim make alot of noise when the arrow is drawn)

[wildcoy73]

Swamp Ghost:
So it really shows, since you can not hunt from your ground blind without making a noise than crossbows should be banned from the Archery season. Well I have my bow tuned and set up and it is a silent little thing. I can draw in my pop-up without a sound. so Your reason base on that is on mars.
As much as you do not like to talk about hunting methods and accessory you bring it up in every one of your post. All of hunting is about hunting methods and the accessories we use. that whats make this hunting in the ages of technology. A crossbow is a method.
But what I have not seen from you the expert in crossbows is a solid reason/fact why they should not be allowed. Not one solid fact.
THe old thing about not having to be drawn is a joke and a grasp at the air.
so give me atleast one solid fact that crossbows will hurt hunting in michigan. (Remeber bowhunters can not do the control of population so we now have a September gun season)

[Swamp Ghost]

Sound associated with drawing? Fix your noise issue. Now who's the lazy hunter? That's almost too funny to even read. Sound associated with the safety clicking off? We xbow guys have to work on that too. 2 different noise issues, 2 different solutions. That's if you want to fix them. Sorry but I hunted with a compound for over 30 years. Sell someone else on the noise from drawing a bow (let alone in a DB blind where it's muffled) to someone else. :lol:

Ever hear of Moleskin? That a little lube and some time spent fixing cam and limb noise issues and it's 100% silent. I have my own bow press and string jig and made what ever it took to get the result I was looking for. I rebuilt too many compounds to know you can make one totally silent on the draw.:lol::lol::lol::lol:

More movement, more sound.

Sorry to say it, even the best prepared bow will have random twang, pop or creak at the least opportune times. Not only with the bow but the person actually drawing it.

You know sounds associated with the entire process of coming to full draw, not just the bow.

[Swamp Ghost]

Swamp Ghost:
So it really shows, since you can not hunt from your ground blind without making a noise than crossbows should be banned from the Archery season. Well I have my bow tuned and set up and it is a silent little thing. I can draw in my pop-up without a sound. so Your reason base on that is on mars.
As much as you do not like to talk about hunting methods and accessory you bring it up in every one of your post. All of hunting is about hunting methods and the accessories we use. that whats make this hunting in the ages of technology. A crossbow is a method.
But what I have not seen from you the expert in crossbows is a solid reason/fact why they should not be allowed. Not one solid fact.
THe old thing about not having to be drawn is a joke and a grasp at the air.
so give me atleast one solid fact that crossbows will hurt hunting in michigan. (Remeber bowhunters can not do the control of population so we now have a September gun season)

A method is driving, ambushing or stalking deer. A crossbow is a weapon.

The joke is able-bodied hunters that refuse to use a weapon because you have to draw it.

If it's not such a big deal why are so many in OH using a weapon that doesn't have to be.

In close quarters with game, the draw is not just a big deal, it is the deal.

I've yet to see one FACT on WHY MI hunters under the same deer hunting regulations NEED another weapon to hunt deer.

If hunters can't get it done with a gun, a crossbow will be of little help.

[BigBirdVA]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

More movement, more sound.

Sorry to say it, even the best prepared bow will have random twang, pop or creak at the least opportune times. Not only with the bow but the person actually drawing it.

You know sounds associated with the entire process of coming to full draw, not just the bow.Yep same possible events picking up a long awkward weapon and holding it for an extended period. Movement out of a blind is even more visible with an xbow because it extends past your body on the sides. You also have to be aware of limbs and things getting in the way on a horizontal plane. Vertical limb movement can be covered by the hunters body. Animals see a dark object moving against a light background - limbs on an xbow sky lighted behind you - and they pick up on you. Similar issues requiring a hunter to be aware and using similar skills.

Next.

[BigBirdVA]

A method is driving, ambushing or stalking deer. A crossbow is a weapon.

The joke is able-bodied hunters that refuse to use a weapon because you have to draw it.

If it's not such a big deal why are so many in OH using a weapon that doesn't have to be.

In close quarters with game, the draw is not just a big deal, it is the deal.

I've yet to see one FACT on WHY MI hunters under the same deer hunting regulations NEED another weapon to hunt deer.

If hunters can't get it done with a gun, a crossbow will be of little help.Refuse?? I'm not aware of a clause in the proposed xbow law that mandates you shoot an xbow. Want to do drives and draw - then do it. I don't remember seeing why bow season needed the compound back then either. BTW I was shooting a recurve bow when compounds were invented. Were you? I've been through the emergence and advancement of the compound and the same for the xbow. It's the same just back then Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet.


Xbows do not take they add.

[walrus]

Boy's-Boy's If you won't let this drop,I have the perfict solution!
oct.1-15-traditional bows
oct.16-31-compounds
nov.1-14-X bows
nov.15-30-center fire, rifles or hand gun.
dec.1-15 in line ML
dec.16-31 traditional ML

Pick a weapon-pick a season. no crossover,
no exception!!!!!!!!!!!
Problem solved :evilsmile

[butter21]

Yep same possible events picking up a long awkward weapon and holding it for an extended period. Movement out of a blind is even more visible with an xbow because it extends past your body on the sides. You also have to be aware of limbs and things getting in the way on a horizontal plane. Vertical limb movement can be covered by the hunters body. Animals see a dark object moving against a light background - limbs on an xbow sky lighted behind you - and they pick up on you. Similar issues requiring a hunter to be aware and using similar skills.

Next.
Movement=Noise, so drawing back= Noise

Boy's-Boy's If you won't let this drop,I have the perfict solution!
oct.1-15-traditional bows
oct.16-31-compounds
nov.1-14-X bows
nov.15-30-center fire, rifles or hand gun.
dec.1-15 in line ML
dec.16-31 traditional ML

Pick a weapon-pick a season. no crossover,
no exception!!!!!!!!!!!
Problem solved :evilsmile
Sign me up!

[BigBirdVA]

Movement=Noise, so drawing back= Noise


Sign me up!How does a crossbow get into position and the hunter click off the safety? You can't hold it freehand for 15 minutes in the shooting position so movement is required. I hang mine on a bow hook and get it ready when a deer approaches. I like all bow hunters plan and move when the time is right. Movement is movement. I've drawn on deer when they were looking at me. It's a heck of a lot easier to draw slowly when the compound is backed by your body than swing horizontal limbs around. Done both.

[swampbuck]

Boy's-Boy's If you won't let this drop,I have the perfict solution!
oct.1-15-traditional bows
oct.16-31-compounds
nov.1-14-X bows
nov.15-30-center fire, rifles or hand gun.
dec.1-15 in line ML
dec.16-31 traditional ML

Pick a weapon-pick a season. no crossover,
no exception!!!!!!!!!!!
Problem solved :evilsmile

sounds good!

[marty]

Boy's-Boy's If you won't let this drop,I have the perfict solution!
oct.1-15-traditional bows
oct.16-31-compounds
nov.1-14-X bows
nov.15-30-center fire, rifles or hand gun.
dec.1-15 in line ML
dec.16-31 traditional ML

Pick a weapon-pick a season. no crossover,
no exception!!!!!!!!!!!
Problem solved :evilsmile

yea and then we got to put up with all six different groups gripping about each other weapons:tdo12:

[marty]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

More movement, more sound.

Sorry to say it, even the best prepared bow will have random twang, pop or creak at the least opportune times. Not only with the bow but the person actually drawing it.

You know sounds associated with the entire process of coming to full draw, not just the bow.

I was using my crossbow this year and while reaching for it I kicked my pee bottle and spooked a deer away. Does that count??:yikes:

movement required for hunting:lol:

[wildcoy73]

I was using my crossbow this year and while reaching for it I kicked my pee bottle and spooked a deer away. Does that count??:yikes:

movement required for hunting:lol:

That is an accessory or maybe a method and will be non related to crossbow. I will ask my rep to put a ban on all pee bottles during hunting. that is unafair advantage. While at it I will also ban your pee tubes, lazybow recliner. your carpeted floors, your insulated hunting shack, trail cam, food plot, pond, 4x4 truck, clear cut, and yes all your camos must go to. do not want you to have an advantage that I can not have every day.
This will make it fair for all. To bad you spent the money on land have to ban private land allso, that is a big advantage over us that hunt public

[butter21]

How does a crossbow get into position and the hunter click off the safety? You can't hold it freehand for 15 minutes in the shooting position so movement is required. I hang mine on a bow hook and get it ready when a deer approaches. I like all bow hunters plan and move when the time is right. Movement is movement. I've drawn on deer when they were looking at me. It's a heck of a lot easier to draw slowly when the compound is backed by your body than swing horizontal limbs around. Done both.
Yea when bow hunting you do all that and still have to draw back. Also you can rest your crossbow to steady it. :rolleyes: You guys are lying to yourselfs in saying that its the same thing as a bow.

[butter21]

I was using my crossbow this year and while reaching for it I kicked my pee bottle and spooked a deer away. Does that count??:yikes:

movement required for hunting:lol:
Your just plain naive if you think that there is the same amount of movement with a crossbow versus a bow.

[marty]

Your just plain naive if you think that there is the same amount of movement with a crossbow versus a bow.

each have movements that can both scare game. I could get caught drawing my bow and I could get caught picking up my crossbow so what's the difference?

[awshucks]

each have movements that can both scare game. I could get caught drawing my bow and I could get caught picking up my crossbow so what's the difference?

the difference is you've hunted w/ an xbow and know this like the rest of us, and he/they don't.

[srconnell22]

Maybe it's called a crossbow because it is like a "cross" between a gun and a vertical bow.;)

You can rest a crossbow on something for a steady shot. - I can rest my bow on my leg at full draw to hold it longer, or I can lean my body up against a tree to hold for a steady shot.

You don't have to draw and hold back to aim and shoot. - you do have to draw, pull up, hold steady and pull a trigger...funny, I do the exact same thing with my Drenalin!

It's cocked and ready to fire with a flip of the safety.

You shoulder it, put your cheek against the stock, and look through a scope to fire. - not all crossbows have scopes...some still use pins much like compounds. You can have a red dot scope or you can shoot instinctively!

You can walk along through the woods with a crossbow shouldered and ready to fire. - I'll give you $1,000 if you can hold a crossbow up to your shoulder while walking through the woods for more than 15 minutes. Not gonna happen sparky.

You can shoot a crossbow from a prone position(lying on the ground). - I can lay on my back and shoot my bow too...

There are just too many similarities to a firearm. The crossbow belongs in a different season.

:dizzy:

[Swamp Ghost]

Refuse?? I'm not aware of a clause in the proposed xbow law that mandates you shoot an xbow. Want to do drives and draw - then do it. I don't remember seeing why bow season needed the compound back then either. BTW I was shooting a recurve bow when compounds were invented. Were you? I've been through the emergence and advancement of the compound and the same for the xbow. It's the same just back then Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet.


Xbows do not take they add.

Ok maybe not refuse; more like, would rather not........

OMG! You shot a recurve, before compounds were invented?

I was shooting one when they were invented. Now I'm shooting a longbow along with a compound. Big deal.

Shouldering a crossbow then using your knee, rail or some other rest before a shot presents itself and in the presence of game eliminates every disadvantage of drawing and holding a bow for any amount of time under the same conditions. Every second that passes at full draw has negative effects on your shot but also steadily increases movements and the sounds associated with them while holding your draw.

You say it can be negated by the use of a blind, not everyone uses a double bull blind. I've hunted out of them. I don't like them, every noise is amplified. I much prefer natural cover or a blind built with natural materials when on the ground. Every noise and movement while on the ground is critical to success. Precisely why treestands are so popular

Not everyone uses a treestand either, I've only been using them for about 5-6 years. With their popularity comes the fact that MI deer now have a nasty habit of looking up. Every shot I have seen with a crossbow out of a treestand is sitting not standing off-hand, quite the opposite with a bow.

You guys act like the your shooting a 38" ATA compound on the end of the stock.

How wide is the average hunter shoulder to shoulder?

Some of these crossbows are less than 18" wide when cocked, did I say cocked? Yes they are cocked....;)

Drawing a bow > Clicking a safety
Drawing a bow > Shouldering a crossbow
Holding at full draw > Resting the forearm of a stock

Movement = noise
Movement reduced by the crossbow = alot

I've got busted shouldering my gun with game with in 30 yards 100x less than drawing my bow.

I've also drawn my bow and shot a few deer while they were looking right at me, but I've been much more successful in those circumstances with my gun.

We are talking about weapons, their inherent differences, advantages and disadvantages. Not unnecessary, optional hunting accessories.

[Radar420]

Some of these crossbows are less than 18" wide when cocked, did I say cocked? Yes they are cocked....;)


cock - to position the hammer of a firearm for firing (from Merriam-Webster)

let's see, no hammer and no combustion to produce firing, therefore, not cocked

[Swamp Ghost]

cock - to position the hammer of a firearm for firing (from Merriam-Webster)

let's see, no hammer and no combustion to produce firing, therefore, not cocked

Tell that to Horton:
http://www.crossbow.com/cockingdevices1

Or Excalibur
http://www.excaliburcrossbow.com/demo/m/content/article.php?content_id=113

Or Ten Point
http://www.tenpointcrossbow.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=90

Cocked or loaded, whatever floats your boat.

http://www.huntersfriend.com/crossbows/crossbow-cocking-considerations.htm

http://www.outdoorsexperience.com/crossbow-cocking-device.html

[Radar420]

Tell that to Horton:
http://www.crossbow.com/cockingdevices1

Cocked or loaded, whatever floats your boat.



load - to place in or on a means of conveyance (from Merriam-Webster)

Therefore, placing a nocked arrow on a rest would be considered "loaded" regardless if it is a vertical or horizontal bow.

As for Horton's definition, I place as much value on that as I would any of the numerous other posts that try to define what a bow is and yet never even look in the dictionary. I'm certain if I was doing a research paper on the subject I would totally gloss over what the dictionaries and encyclopedias describe it as and use one manufacture's description to make an informed decision.

[Swamp Ghost]

load - to place in or on a means of conveyance (from Merriam-Webster)

Therefore, placing a nocked arrow on a rest would be considered "loaded" regardless if it is a vertical or horizontal bow.

As for Horton's definition, I place as much value on that as I would any of the numerous other posts that try to define what a bow is and yet never even look in the dictionary. I'm certain if I was doing a research paper on the subject I would totally gloss over what the dictionaries and encyclopedias describe it as and use one manufacture's description to make an informed decision.

I'll just take the manufactures definition, thanks.

[Radar420]

I'll just take the manufactures definition, thanks.

Why wouldn't you? It fits your agenda.

I'll take the definition provided by a company (perhaps even the industry standard) that has been around for almost 200 years and has been providing definitions to people the world over so that they can be literate.

[BigBirdVA]

I'll just take the manufactures definition, thanks.But you don't or won't take anyone else's definition. We call that selective reasoning. :yikes:

[Swamp Ghost]

But you don't or won't take anyone else's definition. We call that selective reasoning. :yikes:

Taking a partial definition and then interpreting is what? Selective interpretation :rolleyes:

Load
4. To insert (a necessary material) into a device: loaded film into the camera; loaded rounds into the rifle.

2. provide (a device) with something necessary; "He loaded his gun carefully"; "load the camera"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/load

Cocked
2. To set (a device, such as a camera shutter) in a position ready for use.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cocked

Would you like me to take the dictionary's and manufacturer's definition? LOL!

Talk about a research paper.......LMAO!

[Radar420]

Taking a partial definition and then interpreting is what? Selective interpretation :rolleyes:

Load
4. To insert (a necessary material) into a device: loaded film into the camera; loaded rounds into the rifle. is an arrow not necessary for a bow

2. provide (a device) with something necessary; "He loaded his gun carefully"; "load the camera" provide a bow with an arrow
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/load

Cocked
2. To set (a device, such as a camera shutter) in a position ready for use.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cockedisn't that how a release works


:rolleyes::D:lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

Draw
18.to bend (a bow) by pulling back its string in preparation for shooting an arrow. No mention of loaded rounds

18. To pull back the string of (a bow). No mention of a rifle

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/draw

[Radar420]

Draw
18.to bend (a bow) by pulling back its string in preparation for shooting an arrow. No mention of loaded rounds

18. To pull back the string of (a bow). No mention of a rifle

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/draw

and a bow is what?

bow - 1 a: something bent into a simple curve b: rainbow
2: a weapon that is made of a strip of flexible material (as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent and that is used to propel an arrow

using these definitions, what makes a bow different than a crossbow?

crossbow - a weapon for shooting quarrels and stones that consists chiefly of a short bow mounted crosswise near the end of a stock

[TOW]

OK, my crossbow is "cocked". Big deal.

Your arrow (and mine) is nocked.

You say that not having to draw in the presence of game is an advantage Over what or who? The deer? Or another hunter?

We all know it is not about an unfair advantage over the deer or we would not also hunt wth guns would we?

If you say another hunter then tell me is not having an 80% breakover compound an advantage over a fellow bowhunter shooting a longbow or a recurve? He has to hold that bow at full weight waiting for the deer to hit his shooting lane. In the meantime you (as a compounder) can draw your 60# compound and hold back 6/10s of a pound to 12 pounds depending on the breakover. Holding back that little of a weight a compounder can draw way before a deer even gets close to his shooting lane. Is that not an advantage the compounder has over a traditional hunter?

Why the concern that a crossbower "might" have that little draw advantage over you and you don't care that you "might" have an advantage over the traditional hunter?

The deer will never know the difference in what he was shot with.

I can tell you that I bowhunted with longbows, recurves and compounds for 33 years before hunting with a crossbow the last 7 seasons. I KNOW that there are advantages AND disadvantges to each piece of archery equipment. Laying down one and picking up another is trading one advantage/disadvantage for others. I also know that I DON'T CARE. I love to hunt no matter what is in my hands. Take your choice and let others take their choice.

You hunt with what you want and I'll hunt with what I want. My hunting will NOT impact your hunting and your hunting will NOT impact mine - IN ANY WAY.

As BigBirdVA said - It is "much ado about nothing.."

[BigBirdVA]

Anyone know where I can get a hair splitter? I didn't see on on Ebay. We're back at the one insignificant point that differentiates xbows from compounds - drawing the bow. That's all they have left in their argument. He's an xbow hater. Thank God we have him. He points out how irrational his argument is and how emotionally driven it is. He helps us show the many different ways the anti argument is wrong. He's actually making our points valid. Had more than one person post on other boards that the anti argument in action only showed them how truly weak it was and the many facts the pro side has going for them.

Keep up the good work anti guys. :lol:

[marty]

the difference is you've hunted w/ an xbow and know this like the rest of us, and he/they don't.

That's where I think a lot of the problem lies. A lot of people have never shot more less hunted with a crossbow. They read or hear the half truths and downright lies and they go with it without really checking one out.

I think if everyone had to hunt with one for one season they get so sick of them some would go back to compounds:lol: That's why we should all have a choice of whatever fits each of us the best

some like their longbows some the compound and other the crossbow but as long as we all get out hunting that's what important:D

[butter21]

That's where I think a lot of the problem lies. A lot of people have never shot more less hunted with a crossbow. They read or hear the half truths and downright lies and they go with it without really checking one out.

I think if everyone had to hunt with one for one season they get so sick of them some would go back to compounds:lol: That's why we should all have a choice of whatever fits each of us the best

some like their longbows some the compound and other the crossbow but as long as we all get out hunting that's what important:D
So if getting out hunting is the only thing that is important to you then maybe we should just have 1 season where you can use any weapon you please.

[Swamp Ghost]

OK, my crossbow is "cocked". Big deal.

Your arrow (and mine) is nocked.

You say that not having to draw in the presence of game is an advantage Over what or who? The deer? Or another hunter?

We all know it is not about an unfair advantage over the deer or we would not also hunt wth guns would we?

If you say another hunter then tell me is not having an 80% breakover compound an advantage over a fellow bowhunter shooting a longbow or a recurve? He has to hold that bow at full weight waiting for the deer to hit his shooting lane. In the meantime you (as a compounder) can draw your 60# compound and hold back 6/10s of a pound to 12 pounds depending on the breakover. Holding back that little of a weight a compounder can draw way before a deer even gets close to his shooting lane. Is that not an advantage the compounder has over a traditional hunter?

Why the concern that a crossbower "might" have that little draw advantage over you and you don't care that you "might" have an advantage over the traditional hunter?

The deer will never know the difference in what he was shot with.

I can tell you that I bowhunted with longbows, recurves and compounds for 33 years before hunting with a crossbow the last 7 seasons. I KNOW that there are advantages AND disadvantges to each piece of archery equipment. Laying down one and picking up another is trading one advantage/disadvantage for others. I also know that I DON'T CARE. I love to hunt no matter what is in my hands. Take your choice and let others take their choice.

You hunt with what you want and I'll hunt with what I want. My hunting will NOT impact your hunting and your hunting will NOT impact mine - IN ANY WAY.

As BigBirdVA said - It is "much ado about nothing.."

Not having to draw in the presence of game is an advantage over hunters using a bow.

Guns are used in seasons with other guns aren't they?

Does the longbow, recurve and compound have to be drawn?

Your point of the mechanical advantage of a compound over a traditional bow is a good one, but a separate topic.

Everyone's shooting style is different, I am seldom at full draw for more than 10 seconds with any bow that I shoot. I would assume that some shooters are more and some less.

I keep hearing about the 80% let-off bows, I don't personally know anyone that shoots one. I shoot a 82# 70% let-off '02 Hoyt. What is that 25lbs. full draw? Add a 5 pound bow? Roughly 30lbs. total?

I also shoot a longbow thats 45# @ 30". Add the bow, roughly 47lbs.

They both have to be drawn.

8lbs crossbow, 100% let-off with the inherent resting abilities of a stock,

You do the math.

Even if a bow has 99% let-off, the hunter has to draw the bows peak weight through a substantial portion of the draw and do so in the presence of game. Crossbowhunters let a crank do all the work before the deer shows up.

The fact that you must draw a bow, risking visual and aural detection, and make a correct shot using the archery skills of drawing, holding, anchoring, aiming and releasing at very close range and under extreme pressure is what makes bowhunting, just that bowhunting.

The fact that you do not need to do these things with a crossbow is why they do not belong in bowseason.

[butter21]

Not having to draw in the presence of game is an advantage over hunters using a bow.

Guns are used in seasons with other guns aren't they?

Does the longbow, recurve and compound have to be drawn?

Your point of the mechanical advantage of a compound over a traditional bow is a good one, but a separate topic.

Everyone's shooting style is different, I am seldom at full draw for more than 10 seconds with any bow that I shoot. I would assume that some shooters are more and some less.

I keep hearing about the 80% let-off bows, I don't personally know anyone that shoots one. I shoot a 82# 70% let-off '02 Hoyt. What is that 25lbs. full draw? Add a 5 pound bow? Roughly 30lbs. total?

I also shoot a longbow thats 45# @ 30". Add the bow, roughly 47lbs.

They both have to be drawn.

8lbs crossbow, 100% let-off with the inherent resting abilities of a stock,

You do the math.

The fact that you must draw a bow, risking visual and aural detection, and make a correct shot using the archery skills of drawing, holding, anchoring, aiming and releasing at very close range and under extreme pressure is what makes bowhunting, just that bowhunting.

The fact that you do not need to do these things with a crossbow is why they do not belong in bowseason.
Best post ive read today!!!! :)

[Radar420]

Not having to draw in the presence of game is an advantage over hunters using a bow.

Using cams, drop away rests, releases, aluminum/carbon arrows ... is an advantage over the hunter using a stick and string with wood arrows.

Guns are used in seasons with other guns aren't they?

Just as crossbows should be used in season with other bows - after all they are both archery.

Does the longbow, recurve and compound have to be drawn?

Why does it matter? The act of drawing isn't what defines a bow.

Everyone's shooting style is different, I am seldom at full draw for more than 10 seconds with any bow that I shoot. I would assume that some shooters are more and some less.

You acknowledge shooting styles are different so why does it matter to you what type of archery equipment other people use in archery season?

using the archery skills of drawing, holding, anchoring, aiming and releasing at very close range and under extreme pressure is what makes bowhunting, just that bowhunting.


Let's see, crossbow still has to be drawn - just not in the presence of game. You have to hold a crossbow. I'm assuming you anchor the stock to your shoulder and cheek. Still have to aim the crossbow to get your quarry and due to limitations in the crossbow, release at very close range. Still sounds like bow hunting.

[marty]

So if getting out hunting is the only thing that is important to you then maybe we should just have 1 season where you can use any weapon you please.

heck ya hunting is important to me. not most important but rates up there close:D I'm going to hunt everyday I can. Retired life is a dirty thankless job but someone got to do it.:D

crossbows coming to your woods soon;) get over it:evilsmile

[BigBirdVA]

Not having to draw in the presence of game is an advantage over hunters using a bow.

Guns are used in seasons with other guns aren't they?

Does the longbow, recurve and compound have to be drawn?

Your point of the mechanical advantage of a compound over a traditional bow is a good one, but a separate topic.

Everyone's shooting style is different, I am seldom at full draw for more than 10 seconds with any bow that I shoot. I would assume that some shooters are more and some less.

I keep hearing about the 80% let-off bows, I don't personally know anyone that shoots one. I shoot a 82# 70% let-off '02 Hoyt. What is that 25lbs. full draw? Add a 5 pound bow? Roughly 30lbs. total?

I also shoot a longbow thats 45# @ 30". Add the bow, roughly 47lbs.

They both have to be drawn.

8lbs crossbow, 100% let-off with the inherent resting abilities of a stock,

You do the math.

Even if a bow has 99% let-off, the hunter has to draw the bows peak weight through a substantial portion of the draw and do so in the presence of game. Crossbowhunters let a crank do all the work before the deer shows up.

The fact that you must draw a bow, risking visual and aural detection, and make a correct shot using the archery skills of drawing, holding, anchoring, aiming and releasing at very close range and under extreme pressure is what makes bowhunting, just that bowhunting.

The fact that you do not need to do these things with a crossbow is why they do not belong in bowseason.All that is based upon the deciding factor to get or not get the shot being the draw. Drawing was typically not an issue in taking a deer for me with a compound. Getting it within range was. If it got within 30 yds, and I wasn't caught off guard it was a dead deer. Watch the TV shows, drawing is not a problem. If you're having draw problems then you need to brush up on your stand placement and skill as a hunter. Like I've said over and over the drawing vs being already drawn is the one and only difference in compounds vs xbows. The anti's take it and run and try to make it more than it is. It's the basis of their whole argument. They discount same range, same success rates all the other well documented and proven facts and run with the draw issue. Just the simple fact success rates are the same proves the drawing of the bow isn't the determining factor in taking a deer. But when you don't have anything else substantial or factual you have to run with what little you feel you have. No matter how lame or weak it is. :dizzy: :sad:

[Swamp Ghost]

Using cams, drop away rests, releases, aluminum/carbon arrows ... is an advantage over the hunter using a stick and string with wood arrows.

Separate topic.

Just as crossbows should be used in season with other bows - after all they are both archery.

Both may be archery, but one is a bow, the other is a crossbow. Just like muzzleloaders and rifles are firearms, but ML's get a separate season. They are fundamentally different.


Why does it matter? The act of drawing isn't what defines a bow.

That's your opinion. It's what differentiates a bow from ALL other weapons.

You acknowledge shooting styles are different so why does it matter to you what type of archery equipment other people use in archery season?

It matters when you include a fundamentally different and previously restricted weapon into an established season.

Let's see, crossbow still has to be drawn - just not in the presence of game. You have to hold a crossbow. I'm assuming you anchor the stock to your shoulder and cheek. Still have to aim the crossbow to get your quarry and due to limitations in the crossbow, release at very close range. Still sounds like bow hunting.

Sorry but that sounds just like my shotgun hunts.


:):):)

[Swamp Ghost]

All that is based upon the deciding factor to get or not get the shot being the draw. Drawing was typically not an issue in taking a deer for me with a compound. Getting it within range was. If it got within 30 yds, and I wasn't caught off guard it was a dead deer. Watch the TV shows, drawing is not a problem. If you're having draw problems then you need to brush up on your stand placement and skill as a hunter. Like I've said over and over the drawing vs being already drawn is the one and only difference in compounds vs xbows. The anti's take it and run and try to make it more than it is. It's the basis of their whole argument. They discount same range, same success rates all the other well documented and proven facts and run with the draw issue. Just the simple fact success rates are the same proves the drawing of the bow isn't the determining factor in taking a deer. But when you don't have anything else substantial or factual you have to run with what little you feel you have. No matter how lame or weak it is. :dizzy: :sad:

The only difference between a rifle and a muzzleloader is that it doesn't have a cartridge. They are different enough to be in separate seasons.

[Joe Archer]

You guys kill me! Compound hunters used to take exception to traditional hunters' criticism that compounds were easier to use than recurves or long bows. Shhhhh, please don't tell anyone but it is easier to take a deer with a compound than it is with a recurve. Do you want to know something else? It is easier to take a deer with a cross bow than it is with a compound. So what! There is no sense in worrying about whether they will be allowed in the woods any longer because they will be. What I would worry about is educating future users on the limitations of the cross bow. Be sure they know that the animals need to be broad side or quartering and that you can't hit the shoulder blade or sternum. They really need to know that they have to practice with a broadhead and limit their shots to 30 yards or less.
Sure it will be easier to take a deer with a cross bow, but it will still be hunting and it will still provide a great many outdoor experiences.
Yes, all this from one of the many who opposed the bill allowing cross bows for all. I am over it already and it is time to move on. It really is not that big of a deal; is it?
<----<<<

[Riva]

You guys kill me! Compound hunters used to take exception to traditional hunters' criticism that compounds were easier to use than recurves or long bows. Shhhhh, please don't tell anyone but it is easier to take a deer with a compound that it is with a recurve. Do you want to know something else? It is easier to take a deer with a cross bow than it is with a compound. So what! There is no sense in worrying about whether they will be allowed in the woods any longer because they will be. What I would worry about is educating future users on the limitations of the cross bow. Be sure they know that the animals need to be broad side or quartering and that you can't hit the shoulder blade or sternum. They really need to know that they have to practice with a broadhead and limit their shots to 30 yards or less.
Sure it will be easier to take a deer with a cross bow, but it will still be hunting and it will still provide a great many outdoor experiences.
Yes, all this from one of the many who opposed the bill allowing cross bows for all. I am over it already and it is time to move on. It really is not that big of a deal; is it?
<----<<<

Joe,

Great response!

It's refreshing to affirm that it is as much about "hunter opportunity" as it is a preferred manner of take.

[TOW]

Originally Posted by Swamp Ghost
Not having to draw in the presence of game is an advantage over hunters using a bow.

Uh, that is what I said in the compounder drawing way ahead of time and allowing the deer to walk into his shooting lane. The traditional hunter has to wait until that deer is within his shooting lane as he can not hold 60 pounds back near as long as the compounder holding back his much reduced weight.

Are you saying that the let off and the fact that a compounder can hold his bow back for an extended period is not an advantage over a traditional hunter who can not?

How about the times that deer hangs up at the last second after we have made full draw? Can not the compounder hold a LOT longer than the traditional hunter? Is that not an advantage?

Guns are used in seasons with other guns aren't they?

Yep.. and so is archery equipment – which includes crossbows.

Does the longbow, recurve and compound have to be drawn?

Yep, so does the crossbow. Tell me that a vertical compound bowhunter has to wait until the very last second to draw his bow. Can he not draw and wait a minute or two until that deer gets into his range? Mike Beatty held for a full 3 minutes waiting for his World Record non-typical to get into range. Could he or you have done that with a stick bow? Is that not an advantage? What difference does it make if the compound bow is drawn a minute before shooting (deer not in the presence yet) and a crossbow that is drawn a half hour before?

Your point of the mechanical advantage of a compound over a traditional bow is a good one, but a separate topic.

Pulling an Obama on us. I’m asking you do you not have an slight advantage over a traditional bowhunter by using a compound? You sluff that off as unimportant and a “separate topic” when it is the same excuse that you are using to say that crossbows do not belong in archery season.

Make up your mind – is it an advantage or not.

Everyone's shooting style is different, I am seldom at full draw for more than 10 seconds with any bow that I shoot. I would assume that some shooters are more and some less.

I keep hearing about the 80% let-off bows, I don't personally know anyone that shoots one. I shoot a 82# 70% let-off '02 Hoyt. What is that 25lbs. full draw? Add a 5 pound bow? Roughly 30lbs. total?

I also shoot a longbow thats 45# @ 30". Add the bow, roughly 47lbs.

They both have to be drawn.

8lbs crossbow, 100% let-off with the inherent resting abilities of a stock,

You do the math.

The actual weight of the bows is insignificant as the two arms have the weight equally divided in a push/pull. It strikes a balance. In fact it is a LOT easier to hold a compound at full draw than to hold up a crossbow in a shooting position.

Do a test. Tape a laser pointer to your bow and aim at a spot 20 yards ways. Hold on the spot as long as you can before letting down. Have a friend time you and count the number of times that the laser beam wavers out of the spot. Then repeat the test by taping the laser on the barrel of your shotgun, as I know that you don’t have a crossbow,]. The shot gun is about the same weight as a crossbow. Then hold it up as long as you can and have a friend time you and count the number of times the laser beam wavers out of the spot.

I think you will find that you can hold the compound laser beam in the spot more and a lot longer.

The fact that you must draw a bow, risking visual and aural detection, and make a correct shot using the archery skills of drawing, holding, anchoring, aiming and releasing at very close range and under extreme pressure is what makes bowhunting, just that bowhunting.

No, what makes “bowhunting" is the hunting ability of the hunter to get the animal he is pursuing within his own personal range. The “drawing, holding, anchoring, aiming and releasing” is a learned skill that a compounder has to do differently that a traditional bowhunter. Again – Is this not a perceived advantage over the traditional bowhunter? Why is this advantage OK by you and the your perceived advantage that a crossbower has is not OK?

Are you picking and choosing what is an OK advantage t determine what pieces of archery equipment ios OK -? Does this magic line lie EXACTLY where you are at in archery equipment?

It is the old dividing "I'm a bowhunter and you're not" according to what equipment that we use.

The fact that you do not need to do these things with a crossbow is why they do not belong in bowseason.

You’ve never hunted with all three types of archery equipment and I have. There are advantages AND disadvantages to each piece of archery equipment. Laying down one and picking up another is trading one advantage/disadvantage for others. NONE of the advantages or disadvantages should preclude that piece of archery equipment from the archer season.

I’ll say it again and you had no answer for this –

You hunt with what you want and I'll hunt with what I want. My hunting will NOT impact your hunting and your hunting will NOT impact mine - IN ANY WAY.



Try the test and get back with us..

[TOW]

I am over it already and it is time to move on. It really is not that big of a deal; is it?
<----<<<

No it's not.

State after state that had recent inclusion the naysayers start to realize just that and it didn't take long.

People just go hunting and quit quibling about "it's not a bow and you don't have to draw it in the presence of game".

"Much ado about nothing........."

[butter21]

Joe,

Great response!

It's refreshing to affirm that it is as much about "hunter opportunity" as it is a preferred manner of take.
Least you agree that a crossbow is easier then a compound.

[Splitshot]

I wouldn’t trade my compound bow for a crossbow ever. Why would I put myself at a disadvantage? Now if I never shot either one, I might be inclined to use the crossbow as the learning curve is shorter.

To me it makes no difference if you think it is more like a gun than a bow or vice versa. All these arguments are very close to the ones the traditional guys make against the compound guys.

Maybe you bow guys would like this compromise better. Open deer season for traditional and compound bows until the 21 of October. Then from the 21st until the 15th of November open it only for crossbows.

Then the December hunt could be for bows and crossbows.

My buddy Ray is getting tired of how hunters and fishermen have split into little groups and each group tries to get as much for themselves as they can. I agree with him and think it is time to stop this BS and get back to showing respect for other sportsmen’s opinions.

MUCC could take the lead and represent us all, but they need a leader with some savvy and guts. In my opinion unless they change their old archaic organizational system and political agenda they have little chance.

[butter21]

I wouldn’t trade my compound bow for a crossbow ever. Why would I put myself at a disadvantage? Now if I never shot either one, I might be inclined to use the crossbow as the learning curve is shorter.

To me it makes no difference if you think it is more like a gun than a bow or vice versa. All these arguments are very close to the ones the traditional guys make against the compound guys.

Maybe you bow guys would like this compromise better. Open deer season for traditional and compound bows until the 21 of October. Then from the 21st until the 15th of November open it only for crossbows.

Then the December hunt could be for bows and crossbows.

My buddy Ray is getting tired of how hunters and fishermen have split into little groups and each group tries to get as much for themselves as they can. I agree with him and think it is time to stop this BS and get back to showing respect for other sportsmen’s opinions.

MUCC could take the lead and represent us all, but they need a leader with some savvy and guts. In my opinion unless they change their old archaic organizational system and political agenda they have little chance.
That sounds like a great plan. :coolgleam

[Radar420]

Both may be archery, but one is a bow, the other is a crossbow. Just like muzzleloaders and rifles are firearms, but ML's get a separate season. They are fundamentally different.

But you can use ML during rifle season, just as you should be able to use a crossbow during archery season. A separate season isn't needed until it gets inclusion into the archery season.

That's your opinion. It's what differentiates a bow from ALL other weapons.


That's not opinion, that's fact. Find me a legitimate definition from an accredited source that states that it's the act of drawing that makes a bow a bow.

bow - a weapon that is made of a strip of flexible material (as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent and that is used to propel an arrow

No mention of drawing in this definition. It seems that a crossbow would fit this description.

It matters when you include a fundamentally different and previously restricted weapon into an established season.


fundamental - of or relating to essential structure, function, or facts

Based on the definition of a bow from above, they would be fundamentally the same. That is limbs connected at each end by a cord that propels an arrow - after all this is the essential structure for both bows and crossbows.

Sorry but that sounds just like my shotgun hunts.

How do you ignite the primer with a crossbow;)

[butter21]

But you can use ML during rifle season, just as you should be able to use a crossbow during archery season. A separate season isn't needed until it gets inclusion into the archery season.



That's not opinion, that's fact. Find me a legitimate definition from an accredited source that states that it's the act of drawing that makes a bow a bow.

bow - a weapon that is made of a strip of flexible material (as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent and that is used to propel an arrow

No mention of drawing in this definition. It seems that a crossbow would fit this description.



fundamental - of or relating to essential structure, function, or facts

Based on the definition of a bow from above, they would be fundamentally the same. That is limbs connected at each end by a cord that propels an arrow - after all this is the essential structure for both bows and crossbows.



How do you ignite the primer with a crossbow;)
Is this a good legitimate source

The IBEP definition of a bow is "one that is hand held, hand drawn, and released with nothing attached to the bow that will allow the bow to be mechanically held in a drawn or cocked position."

[Radar420]

Is this a good legitimate source

The IBEP definition of a bow is "one that is hand held, hand drawn, and released with nothing attached to the bow that will allow the bow to be mechanically held in a drawn or cocked position."

Let's see, IBEP - would that be International Bowhunter Education Program.

When I say legitimate, I mean unbiased:lol:

[butter21]

Let's see, IBEP - would that be International Bowhunter Education Program.

When I say legitimate, I mean unbiased:lol:
explain how the IBEP is biased?

[Radar420]

explain how the IBEP is biased?

bias - a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment.

The IBEP is a bowhunting organization and therefore would have some sort of slant on their definition. Find a definition where the source writing it has no interest one way or the other in bow hunting and you'll have an unbiased definition.

How is the IBEP accredited?

accredit - to give official authorization to or approval of: a: to provide with credentials; especially : to send (an envoy) with letters of authorization b: to recognize or vouch for as conforming with a standard

It's funny how their definition doesn't jive with that of Merriam-Webster, Encyclopedia Britannica, Encarta, or any other definition/description from an accredited source.

[butter21]

bias - a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment.

The IBEP is a bowhunting organization and therefore would have some sort of slant on their definition. Find a definition where the source writing it has no interest one way or the other in bow hunting and you'll have an unbiased definition.

How is the IBEP accredited?

accredit - to give official authorization to or approval of: a: to provide with credentials; especially : to send (an envoy) with letters of authorization b: to recognize or vouch for as conforming with a standard

It's funny how their definition doesn't jive with that of Merriam-Webster, Encyclopedia Britannica, Encarta, or any other definition/description from an accredited source.
What does a bowhunting organization have anything to do with being biased?

[Radar420]

What does a bowhunting organization have anything to do with being biased?

:rolleyes: as a bow hunting organization, they have a specific interest in how a bow is defined. Therefore, bow hunting is something that is personal to this group and they are making a judgement on it.

bias - a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgement

The definitions I provide come from sources that are acknowledged by scholars the world over.

[Radar420]

explain how the IBEP is biased?

OMG I was just doing a little surfing and you know what I found? The IBEP was introduced by MBH. No bias there :cwm27::lol:

[IceDaddy]

Least you agree that a crossbow is easier then a compound.

Yep, and compounds are easier than recurves, and recurves are easier than spears. When compared to cavemen, I stand alot straighter, Shave and get my hair cut too. No need to live in the stone age, Times are a changin':lol:

[TOW]

NBEF RELEASES CROSSBOW TRAINING BOOKLET

The National Bowhunters Education Foundation has played a tactical role in securing the future of modern bowhunting through education and training. Since 1979 over 1.5 million bowhunters have taken the standardized course in ethics, responsibility, treestand safety, shot placement and game recovery. Now the NBEF has expanded its scope by introducing crossbow hunters education to their coarse by publishing Today’s Crossbow – An addendum to a Hunter Education or Bowhunter Education Course.

This unique 30-page booklet contains a bevy of hunting information that will take new crossbow hunters from A to Z. It will also provide basic crossbow safety information that should be learned by all who plan to hunt with the fastest growing discipline in modern hunting. The publication briefly covers crossbow history and then quickly dives into the ethics and responsibilities of a crossbow hunter.

It provides an in depth discussion of the different types of crossbow equipment and is filled with colorful graphics and illustrations. Among the equipment and accessories discussed are arrows, broadheads, cocking devices and sighting systems. There is also good information about setting up the proper range and the targets that should be used.

The information that is included in the shooting section should be mandatory reading for everyone before they ever fire an arrow from a crossbow. It is complete and filled with excellent tips that will assist in accuracy while preventing personal injury. There is practical information on crossbow hunting techniques, all filled with common sense safety procedures, many that are unique to hunting with a crossbow.

At the back of the training manual, there is a Section Review Exercises worksheet that will test your knowledge and help you review the information you have learned. The publication includes a directory of State Game Agencies as well as a current list of the States and Province crossbow regulations. And finally, the back page is dedicated to the Crossbow Hunter Code of Ethics.

This booklet is not only an excellent training tool, but it is also filled with lots of information that crossbow devotees will find useful in combating the misinformation that is being frantically spread by the anti-crossbow faction.

The NBEF has done an excellent job of putting this training guide together and future releases on the subject will only improve. As we all know, the laws and attitudes about the crossbow are rapidly changing making this a work in progress!

If you would like to own a copy of this publication, please call the HBM Main Desk at 320-634-3660 or email us at bowtwang@charter.net You may also use the order form that is included in the HBM Catalog Pages in the Horizontal Bowhunter Magazine magazine. There is a $5/copy cost to cover printing, mailing.

http://www.horizontalbowhunter.com/news/news.asp?ID=70

[butter21]

That's not opinion, that's fact. Find me a legitimate definition from an accredited source that states that it's the act of drawing that makes a bow a bow.

bow - a weapon that is made of a strip of flexible material (as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent and that is used to propel an arrow

No mention of drawing in this definition. It seems that a crossbow would fit this description.



fundamental - of or relating to essential structure, function, or facts

Based on the definition of a bow from above, they would be fundamentally the same. That is limbs connected at each end by a cord that propels an arrow - after all this is the essential structure for both bows and crossbows.


Well thanks for looking those definitions up for me. Last time i checked crossbows didnt use arrows. They used bolts. ;)

[butter21]

Your example of crawling through the grass is a good example. Easy to do with a shotgun cradled in your arms or held in one hand. Try and do that with a crossbow and you will find it much tougher.


I began my long crawl from the edge of the mowed field, and slid slowly toward the stand. It was a new moon, and the sky was overcast -- it was dark! I felt my way along as much as anything. I arrived proudly at the thicket without making a sound about 45 minutes later (covering not quite 100 yards).

This person doesn't have any trouble.

http://www.ohiogameandfish.com/hunting/whitetail-deer-hunting/OH_0805_01/index.html

[IceDaddy]

I'm quite sure he had it straped to his back, inless you are insinuating that a guy that killed a state record deer, did it Illegally. It would be illegal to have the crossbow pulled back with an arrow in place, when it's still dark.:dizzy:

[TOW]

Well thanks for looking those definitions up for me. Last time i checked crossbows didnt use arrows. They used bolts. ;)


Then you do not know much about crossbows. Although the terms arrows and bolts have been interchanged the correct terminology for what the modern crossbower uses is arrows.

Bolts do not extend past the riser (yes, crossbows do have a riser) and are used mostly for targets. The modern crossbower uses arrows that extend past the riser and use them a LOT for hunting – which is what we are talking about.

The modern crossbow arrow is 20 to 22 inches long and that is not a whole lot shorter than some overdraw arrows that vertical bowhunters use.


Crossbow arrows and bolts …

They call them arrows here..

http://www.crossbow.com/arrows1 (http://www.crossbow.com/arrows1)

Arrows here too..

http://www.nextag.com/NEW-TenPoint-Pro-Elite-517315564/prices-html

They call them “arrows” here..

http://nativeoutdoors.stores.yahoo.net/pc38220.html (http://nativeoutdoors.stores.yahoo.net/pc38220.html)

Arrows here too…

http://www.onlinesports.com/pages/I,BNT-16078.html (http://www.onlinesports.com/pages/I,BNT-16078.html)

More arrows..

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0009TTSDW?smid=A19XE0CFLN81HP&tag=nextag-sports-mp-20&linkCode=asn (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0009TTSDW?smid=A19XE0CFLN81HP&tag=nextag-sports-mp-20&linkCode=asn)

Bass Pro Shop calls them arrows too…

http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTarget=search&hvarTextId=62958&hvarAID=froogle&cm_ven=Performics&cm_cat=Search&cm_pla=I%2Dsearch%20%28Froogle%29&cm_ite=DDI%20link

Arrows again..

http://www.shop.com/op/aprod-~crossbow+arrows-p18661070 (http://www.shop.com/op/aprod-~crossbow+arrows-p18661070)

More arrows..

http://www.dartonarchery.com/glcquivers.htm (http://www.dartonarchery.com/glcquivers.htm)

Arrows again…

http://store.grovergear.com/crossbowarrows.html (http://store.grovergear.com/crossbowarrows.html)


But to be perfectly honest with you some people still erroneously call them
“bolts”. Most times it is people that attempt to separate the crossbow from archery. They are either ignorant of what is a bolt and what is an arrow or they attempt to deliberately mislead people.

They do call them both arrows and bolts here..

http://www.outdoorsuperstore.com/category.asp?cat=10209 (http://www.outdoorsuperstore.com/category.asp?cat=10209)

[TOW]

I'm quite sure he had it straped to his back, inless you are insinuating that a guy that killed a state record deer, did it Illegally. It would be illegal to have the crossbow pulled back with an arrow in place, when it's still dark.:dizzy:

Yep., if you are insinuating that I will get Brad on here to set you straight real quick...

[Munsterlndr]

This person doesn't have any trouble.

http://www.ohiogameandfish.com/hunting/whitetail-deer-hunting/OH_0805_01/index.html

45 minutes to crawl 100 yards? I did not say it was impossible just tougher. Crawling 2 yards a minute is not exactly setting speed records.:lol:

By the way if you read the article, he could not have possibly been using a crossbow, he shot the deer with an arrow. ;) :lol:

BTW, when are you going to come clean Butter and tell everybody what name you posted under previously? ;)

[butter21]

45 minutes to crawl 100 yards? I did not say it was impossible just tougher. Crawling 2 yards a minute is not exactly setting speed records.:lol:

By the way if you read the article, he could not have possibly been using a crossbow, he shot the deer with an arrow. ;) :lol:

BTW, when are you going to come clean Butter and tell everybody what name you posted under previously? ;)
notice the crossbow user is the one that telling the story. ;) as for the speed he is going slow to not spook the deer.

edit what makes you think i posted under a different name?

[butter21]

I'm quite sure he had it straped to his back, inless you are insinuating that a guy that killed a state record deer, did it Illegally. It would be illegal to have the crossbow pulled back with an arrow in place, when it's still dark.:dizzy:
Where did it say it was pulled back and had a bolt in before he left? :dizzy:

[TOW]

That same “crossbower”…

http://www.jermanbuck.com/images/2005buck.jpg (http://www.jermanbuck.com/images/2005buck.jpg)

Taken on Jan. 2, 2006 this heavy 10-point is my first deer with a recurve bow. I had just gotten the recurve (a 50# Martin Revelation TakeDown in Mossy Oak) a few days earlier but was shooting well enough to take it out. My big hopes were to put an urban tag on a doe. I was sitting behind a ground blind since the bow is too large for the interior when this deer walked into my shooting lane at 19 yards. I stood and made a good shot behind the shoulder on his right side. He has filled the freezer nicely.

[butter21]

That same “crossbower”…

http://www.jermanbuck.com/images/2005buck.jpg

Taken on Jan. 2, 2006 this heavy 10-point is my first deer with a recurve bow. I had just gotten the recurve (a 50# Martin Revelation TakeDown in Mossy Oak) a few days earlier but was shooting well enough to take it out. My big hopes were to put an urban tag on a doe. I was sitting behind a ground blind since the bow is too large for the interior when this deer walked into my shooting lane at 19 yards. I stood and made a good shot behind the shoulder on his right side. He has filled the freezer nicely.
Ok......nice deer but whats your point.

[TOW]

Ok......nice deer but whats your point.

I just wanted to make sure that everyone knows a hunter is a hunter no matter what is in his hands.

As he said, he had only "gotten the recurve a few days earlier". It doesn't take long and it doesn't matter to a real hunter what he hunts with... he will be succeessful....

[BigBirdVA]

I just wanted to make sure that everyone knows a hunter is a hunter no matter what is in his hands.

As he said, he had only "gotten the recurve a few days earlier". It doesn't take long and it doesn't matter to a real hunter what he hunts with... he will be succeessful....

:yeahthat: You hit the nail on the head with that one.

[butter21]

I just wanted to make sure that everyone knows a hunter is a hunter no matter what is in his hands.

As he said, he had only "gotten the recurve a few days earlier". It doesn't take long and it doesn't matter to a real hunter what he hunts with... he will be succeessful....
Like i said before, im not against crossbows. Im against full inclusion of crossbows in michigan's archery season. Sign me up for crossbow season of its own any day.

[awshucks]

"Like i said before, im not against crossbows. Im against full inclusion of crossbows in michigan's archery season. Sign me up for crossbow season of its own any day."

I keep hearing about this stand alone xbow season. Gotta ask just when do you propose it should be?

[Swamp Ghost]

But you can use ML during rifle season, just as you should be able to use a crossbow during archery season. A separate season isn't needed until it gets inclusion into the archery season.

You can use a ML in the general firearm season because it is a "lessor" weapon to the rifle. It appears the DNR saw the need of a separate season because of the muzzleloader's inherent disadvantage to the rifle.

That's not opinion, that's fact. Find me a legitimate definition from an accredited source that states that it's the act of drawing that makes a bow a bow.

The bow is the only weapon that is universally recognized as being drawn. It's even in the definition of draw. Refute if you must.

bow - a weapon that is made of a strip of flexible material (as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent and that is used to propel an arrow

Not according to the states that allow crossbow use, the define the crossbow differently, change the title of the season or sell separate crossbow licenses. They aren't afraid to admit that they deserve to be separated even if it's by definition.

No mention of drawing in this definition. It seems that a crossbow would fit this description.

The crossbow manufactures and the dictionary disagree.


How do you ignite the primer with a crossbow;)

How do you load a crossbow without cocking it? :lol:



...

[butter21]

I wouldn’t trade my compound bow for a crossbow ever. Why would I put myself at a disadvantage? Now if I never shot either one, I might be inclined to use the crossbow as the learning curve is shorter.

To me it makes no difference if you think it is more like a gun than a bow or vice versa. All these arguments are very close to the ones the traditional guys make against the compound guys.

Maybe you bow guys would like this compromise better. Open deer season for traditional and compound bows until the 21 of October. Then from the 21st until the 15th of November open it only for crossbows.

Then the December hunt could be for bows and crossbows.

My buddy Ray is getting tired of how hunters and fishermen have split into little groups and each group tries to get as much for themselves as they can. I agree with him and think it is time to stop this BS and get back to showing respect for other sportsmen’s opinions.

MUCC could take the lead and represent us all, but they need a leader with some savvy and guts. In my opinion unless they change their old archaic organizational system and political agenda they have little chance.

"Like i said before, im not against crossbows. Im against full inclusion of crossbows in michigan's archery season. Sign me up for crossbow season of its own any day."

I keep hearing about this stand alone xbow season. Gotta ask just when do you propose it should be?
Theres this one, there has also been a few others just read.

[Ranger Ray]

Crossbows will more then likely take away from the traditional archery season. It would stand to reason as it has the most days. As with muzzle loader season I see no reason to oppose someone the right to hunt with a crossbow except that it will make me share some of my season with them. That alone is not a good enough reason to oppose crossbows. One has to ask themselves with all these splinter groups fighting for their own goals, what would make anyone of you think you are going to be the winner all the time? It appears all happy go lucky until the other group gets one up on you. Shame on all you sportsmen! It is not PETA and the HSUS to fear it is yourself. The victories will be short lived if we keep dividing ourselves. Our goal should be inclusion of all not what can my group get.

[boehr]

If person 'A' wants to hunt with a recurve or compound what effect does person 'B' that is hunting with a crossbow have on person 'A'?

I am talking about effects that would be different if person 'B' was also using a compound, not a crossbow.

Differences?

[TOW]

If person 'A' wants to hunt with a recurve or compound what effect does person 'B' that is hunting with a crossbow have on person 'A'?

I am talking about effects that would be different if person 'B' was also using a compound, not a crossbow.

Differences?

Absolutely none..

I hunt with my son a lot. He uses a PSE X Force and I use a TenPoint ProElite. Niether one of us cares what the other is using. He kills just as many, if not more deer, than I do.

He hunted with my TenPoint during turkey season a couple years ago and bagged a real nice tom. This year he took a nice tom with his X Force. No difference in how they were taken..

[boehr]

Absolutely none..

Exactly the point I am making. One of the reasons I don't understand the reasoning in the opposition.

[Splitshot]

I wouldn’t trade my compound bow for a crossbow ever. Why would I put myself at a disadvantage? Now if I never shot either one, I might be inclined to use the crossbow as the learning curve is shorter.

To me it makes no difference if you think it is more like a gun than a bow or vice versa. All these arguments are very close to the ones the traditional guys make against the compound guys.

Maybe you bow guys would like this compromise better. Open deer season for traditional and compound bows until the 21 of October. Then from the 21st until the 15th of November open it only for crossbows.

Then the December hunt could be for bows and crossbows.

My buddy Ray is getting tired of how hunters and fishermen have split into little groups and each group tries to get as much for themselves as they can. I agree with him and think it is time to stop this BS and get back to showing respect for other sportsmen’s opinions.

MUCC could take the lead and represent us all, but they need a leader with some savvy and guts. In my opinion unless they change their old archaic organizational system and political agenda they have little chance.All of this energy discussing if a crossbow is more like a rifle than a bow is just wasted. Simply put, a bow is a bow, a gun is a gun and a crossbow is a crossbow and they are all different.

The bottom line is we need to kill more deer and adding crossbows to the archery season will help accomplish that goal. It will also get more people interested in hunting which is another positive thing.

It is important to have your own set of ethics and speak out to support them but when you start condemning other sportsmen based on your ethics it is as Ray said divisive. There is no point. If you condemn me for using a crossbow because it makes it easier because what does it make the guys who hunt with rifles and scopes? Are they unethical as well? Are they not hunters because of the advantage the rifle gives them? I don’t believe it does.

To kill a mature deer on a regular basis takes skill, hunting skills and shooting skills. To kill a trophy deer on a regular basis makes you a better hunter, but not a better person.

When I asked if you all wanted a separate crossbow season, I was being sarcastic. I expected some of you to express how unfair it would be to give the crossbow guys the best part of the season. It is a stupid idea especially when we could all hunt the same entire season and not infringe on anyone.

I think any time you set up special rules for a particular group it makes part of that particular group feel superior. After a while some of them start to feel entitled and lobby for more special rules. If successful it reinforces that higher status and before you know it they become quality fishermen or quality hunters and what does that make the rest of us?

I have shot dozens of crossbows but like I said I believe my compound gives me a bigger advantage because of the hours and hours I spent shooting my bow over the years. If you think a crossbow puts you at a disadvantage, practice more and spend more time in the woods and become a savvy hunter and things like crossbows won’t threaten you anymore.

I believe crossbows are a legitimate weapon to use for deer. They kill deer just as effectively as a long bow or compound bow. I can think of many emotional and selfish reasons to deny hunters the use of crossbows during the MI archery season, and although I will never buy one or use one I see no ethical reason why they should not be allowed.

[butter21]

Absolutely none..

I hunt with my son a lot. He uses a PSE X Force and I use a TenPoint ProElite. Niether one of us cares what the other is using. He kills just as many, if not more deer, than I do.

He hunted with my TenPoint during turkey season a couple years ago and bagged a real nice tom. This year he took a nice tom with his X Force. No difference in how they were taken..
Thats just an opinion of someone who is in support of crossbow inclusion.

[Whit1]

I wouldn’t trade my compound bow for a crossbow ever. Why would I put myself at a disadvantage? Now if I never shot either one, I might be inclined to use the crossbow as the learning curve is shorter.

To me it makes no difference if you think it is more like a gun than a bow or vice versa. All these arguments are very close to the ones the traditional guys make against the compound guys.

Maybe you bow guys would like this compromise better. Open deer season for traditional and compound bows until the 21 of October. Then from the 21st until the 15th of November open it only for crossbows.

Then the December hunt could be for bows and crossbows.

My buddy Ray is getting tired of how hunters and fishermen have split into little groups and each group tries to get as much for themselves as they can. I agree with him and think it is time to stop this BS and get back to showing respect for other sportsmen’s opinions.

MUCC could take the lead and represent us all, but they need a leader with some savvy and guts. In my opinion unless they change their old archaic organizational system and political agenda they have little chance. All of this energy discussing if a crossbow is more like a rifle than a bow is just wasted. Simply put, a bow is a bow, a gun is a gun and a crossbow is a crossbow and they are all different.

The bottom line is we need to kill more deer and adding crossbows to the archery season will help accomplish that goal. It will also get more people interested in hunting which is another positive thing.

It is important to have your own set of ethics and speak out to support them but when you start condemning other sportsmen based on your ethics it is as Ray said divisive. There is no point. If you condemn me for using a crossbow because it makes it easier because what does it make the guys who hunt with rifles and scopes? Are they unethical as well? Are they not hunters because of the advantage the rifle gives them? I don’t believe it does.

To kill a mature deer on a regular basis takes skill, hunting skills and shooting skills. To kill a trophy deer on a regular basis makes you a better hunter, but not a better person.

When I asked if you all wanted a separate crossbow season, I was being sarcastic. I expected some of you to express how unfair it would be to give the crossbow guys the best part of the season. It is a stupid idea especially when we could all hunt the same entire season and not infringe on anyone.

I think any time you set up special rules for a particular group it makes part of that particular group feel superior. After a while some of them start to feel entitled and lobby for more special rules. If successful it reinforces that higher status and before you know it they become quality fishermen or quality hunters and what does that make the rest of us?

I have shot dozens of crossbows but like I said I believe my compound gives me a bigger advantage because of the hours and hours I spent shooting my bow over the years. If you think a crossbow puts you at a disadvantage, practice more and spend more time in the woods and become a savvy hunter and things like crossbows won’t threaten you anymore.

I believe crossbows are a legitimate weapon to use for deer. They kill deer just as effectively as a long bow or compound bow. I can think of many emotional and selfish reasons to deny hunters the use of crossbows during the MI archery season, and although I will never buy one or use one I see no ethical reason why they should not be allowed.



Nice post! That Splitshot guy certainly has a way with words. I bet he can do the same thing on a trout stream.

[Munsterlndr]

Thats just an opinion of someone who is in support of crossbow inclusion.
No, it's the informed opinion of someone who has hunted with both weapons. How many times have you hunted with a Crossbow? ;)

[butter21]

No, it's the informed opinion of someone who has hunted with both weapons. How many times have you hunted with a Crossbow? ;)
Ok its an informed opinion.;) I have never hunted with a crossbow, however i have shot one. My informed opinion says that it shouldnt have full inclusion in michigan's archery season.

[TOW]

No, it's the informed opinion of someone who has hunted with both weapons. How many times have you hunted with a Crossbow? ;)


Yep, been there, done that and have the T shirt. ;)

He hasn't..but he somehow thinks his opinion is better than mine..

[boehr]

Then state what the difference is to my question in your informed opinion butter.

[butter21]

Then state what the difference is to my question in your informed opinion butter.


With a crossbow you do not have to draw back presence of game.

You have to if you are using a longbow, recurve and compound.

A crossbow has a stock which allows you to rest it on an object to help steady for the shot.

A crossbow is cocked and ready to fire with a click of the safety.

When firing a crossbow you put it tight to your shoulder, put the stock against the side of your face, and in most cases look though a rifle scope to shoot it.

With all these facts about crossbows its to my informed opinion that its to different of a weapon to belong in our current bowseason.

[TOW]

With a crossbow you do not have to draw back presence of game.

You have to if you are using a longbow, recurve and compound.

A crossbow has a stock which allows you to rest it on an object to help steady for the shot.

A crossbow is cocked and ready to fire with a click of the safety.

When firing a crossbow you put it tight to your shoulder, put the stock against the side of your face, and in most cases look though a rifle scope to shoot it.

With all these facts about crossbows its to my informed opinion that its to different of a weapon to belong in our current bowseason.

LOL... Pay attention.. there might be a quiz later.

That was NOT his question he asked.

He asked...

If person 'A' wants to hunt with a recurve or compound what effect does person 'B' that is hunting with a crossbow have on person 'A'?

I am talking about effects that would be different if person 'B' was also using a compound, not a crossbow.

Differences?

Now try again...remember what difference does it make to person 'A'..

Since I have hunted with a crossbow (person 'B') and my son has hunted the same time (100 yards apart)with a compound (person 'A') then I think my INFORMED (actually done it) opinion on what "difference does it make" is better than someone that has never hunted with a crossbow at all.

[butter21]

LOL... Pay attention.. there might be a quiz later.

That was NOT his question he asked.

He asked...



Now try again...remember what difference does it make to person 'A'..

Since I have hunted with a crossbow (person 'B') and my son has hunted the same time (100 yards apart)with a compound (person 'A') then I think my INFORMED (actually done it) opinion on what "difference does it make" is better than someone that has never hunted with a crossbow at all.

" I am talking about effects that would be different if person 'B' was also using a compound, not a crossbow"

I listed what was different just like he asked. :dizzy:

[boehr]

:lol: So the only 'real' answer you have is you just don't want crossbows because if anyone else using a crossbow it has no effect on what you use except you don't want them to use a crossbow. Now if that is not it, then I am waiting.

[TOW]

" I am talking about effects that would be different if person 'B' was also using a compound, not a crossbow"

I listed what was different just like he asked. :dizzy:

C'mon..

You're playing games again after getting thumped.

Answer the question..

If person 'A' wants to hunt with a recurve or compound what effect does person 'B' that is hunting with a crossbow have on person 'A'?

"Person 'A' and person 'B'" effects on each other.... get it now?

[butter21]

C'mon..

You're playing games again after getting thumped.

Answer the question..



"Person 'A' and person 'B'" effects on each other.... get it now?

"Then state what the difference is to my question in your informed opinion butter."

That is what i answered. There is a difference in how the game is taken, and i told you what that was.

[TOW]

"Then state what the difference is to my question in your informed opinion butter."

That is what i answered. There is a difference in how the game is taken, and i told you what that was.



LMAO... you're not very good at spinning are you?

[Radar420]

Well thanks for looking those definitions up for me. Last time i checked crossbows didnt use arrows. They used bolts. ;)

Here I'll look this one up for you too: bolt - 1 a: a shaft or missile designed to be shot from a crossbow or catapult; especially (dictionary emphasis) : a short stout usually blunt-headed arrow (mine)

You can use a ML in the general firearm season because it is a "lessor" weapon to the rifle. It appears the DNR saw the need of a separate season because of the muzzleloader's inherent disadvantage to the rifle.

You can use any gun (or gonne) you want during firearm season as they are all firearms, just as you should be able to use any archery weapon during archery season. If you want separate seasons, petition to have the name of the current season changed to vertical bow - at least that way it would be legit

The bow is the only weapon that is universally recognized as being drawn. It's even in the definition of draw. Refute if you must.

Funny, you've never heard of a gun being drawn:lol: I don't know if you know how the dictionary works or not but the definitions are listed in order most common or most accepted. Drawing a gun is the second definition, drawing a bow is way down the list at #9. And a crossbow still has to be drawn to function

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/draw

Not according to the states that allow crossbow use, the define the crossbow differently, change the title of the season or sell separate crossbow licenses. They aren't afraid to admit that they deserve to be separated even if it's by definition.

And those are each states definition, not universally recognized definitions. I guess thats what happens when people twist definitions so far out of context that a large section of the populations begins to believe that they are true meanings.

The crossbow manufactures and the dictionary disagree.

:lol:

How do you load a crossbow without cocking it?

That's easy, to load just place the arrow against the string. No cocking involved. Now if you wanted to shoot it, you may have to pull or crank the string back:lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

If person 'A' wants to hunt with a recurve or compound what effect does person 'B' that is hunting with a crossbow have on person 'A'?

I am talking about effects that would be different if person 'B' was also using a compound, not a crossbow.

Differences?

If person 'B' had to draw their crossbow in the same fashion person 'A' did their bow, there would be no effect.

The same scenario can be played with person 'A' wanting to use a .44 mag Ruger Redhawk pistol and the effect that person 'B' using a .44 mag Ruger 99/44 carbine has on person 'A'.

[butter21]

:lol: So the only 'real' answer you have is you just don't want crossbows because if anyone else using a crossbow it has no effect on what you use except you don't want them to use a crossbow. Now if that is not it, then I am waiting.
All how you interpret the word effect. I know what it means so you don't need to copy and paste a definition. It boils down to how you interpret the word. All of the pro crossbow inclusion people will probably argue that what i said has no effect on me or to other bowhunters. I feel differently.

[TOW]

If person 'B' had to draw their crossbow in the same fashion person 'A' did their bow, there would be no effect.

Oh my gosh!! I can not believe this! Swamp Ghost, I sure gave you more credit than that. You're basically giving us the same answer as butter21.

When 'A' or 'B' draws their bow has absolutely no effect on the other guy.

The same scenario can be played with person 'A' wanting to use a .44 mag Ruger Redhawk pistol and the effect that person 'B' using a .44 mag Ruger 99/44 carbine has on person 'A'.

Not at all. The Ruger 99/44 has a much greater range than the Redhawk. The comopund acually has a tad more range than a crossbow.

[Splitshot]

Butter21,

It is not polite to not answer a question. When you play these little games, you will piss some people off, but you won’t win anyone to your side of the argument. It is pretty clear you won’t answer the question because you have no answer so you say silly little things like it depends how you interpret the word effect.

It is clear you don’t want crossbows used during the archery season, but it is for the selfish reasons you feel in your gut. If you had any reasonable answers, you would have stated them by now. Since you didn’t fill out your profile I can only guess you are older than 14 and younger than 18.

I suggest you leave the arguments to the adults until you get past puberty. Thanks.

[butter21]

Butter21,

It is not polite to not answer a question. When you play these little games, you will piss some people off, but you won’t win anyone to your side of the argument. It is pretty clear you won’t answer the question because you have no answer so you say silly little things like it depends how you interpret the word effect.

It is clear you don’t want crossbows used during the archery season, but it is for the selfish reasons you feel in your gut. If you had any reasonable answers, you would have stated them by now. Since you didn’t fill out your profile I can only guess you are older than 14 and younger than 18.

I suggest you leave the arguments to the adults until you get past puberty. Thanks.
I have awnsered the question more than once. You might not like the anwser however. ;)

Im aware i probably wont win over anyone but your not winning over anyone either.

Just b/c i wont fill out my profile your saying i haven't got past puberty. :lol: ( you also might want to read over the rules 1 more time )
What about your friend TOW dont see his profile filled out either. ;)

[Splitshot]

I have awnsered the question more than once. You might not like the anwser however. ;)

Im aware i probably wont win over anyone but your not winning over anyone either.

Just b/c i wont fill out my profile your saying i haven't got past puberty. :lol:
What about your friend TOW dont see his profile filled out either. ;)

You did answer some questions, but not the one that has been asked over and over. I don’t know TOW and if he didn’t fill out his profile, I recommend that he do so as it helps us know who we are talking to.

I didn’t make my statement about your immaturity because you didn’t fill out your profile, but because of the statements (I can’t call them arguments) you made. So how do people using crossbows during archery season negatively affect you? What difference does it make to you if they use a bow or a crossbow?

[Ranger Ray]

I wouldn’t trade my compound bow for a crossbow ever. Why would I put myself at a disadvantage? Now if I never shot either one, I might be inclined to use the crossbow as the learning curve is shorter.

To me it makes no difference if you think it is more like a gun than a bow or vice versa. All these arguments are very close to the ones the traditional guys make against the compound guys.

Maybe you bow guys would like this compromise better. Open deer season for traditional and compound bows until the 21 of October. Then from the 21st until the 15th of November open it only for crossbows.

Then the December hunt could be for bows and crossbows.

My buddy Ray is getting tired of how hunters and fishermen have split into little groups and each group tries to get as much for themselves as they can. I agree with him and think it is time to stop this BS and get back to showing respect for other sportsmen’s opinions.

MUCC could take the lead and represent us all, but they need a leader with some savvy and guts. In my opinion unless they change their old archaic organizational system and political agenda they have little chance. All of this energy discussing if a crossbow is more like a rifle than a bow is just wasted. Simply put, a bow is a bow, a gun is a gun and a crossbow is a crossbow and they are all different.

The bottom line is we need to kill more deer and adding crossbows to the archery season will help accomplish that goal. It will also get more people interested in hunting which is another positive thing.

It is important to have your own set of ethics and speak out to support them but when you start condemning other sportsmen based on your ethics it is as Ray said divisive. There is no point. If you condemn me for using a crossbow because it makes it easier because what does it make the guys who hunt with rifles and scopes? Are they unethical as well? Are they not hunters because of the advantage the rifle gives them? I don’t believe it does.

To kill a mature deer on a regular basis takes skill, hunting skills and shooting skills. To kill a trophy deer on a regular basis makes you a better hunter, but not a better person.

When I asked if you all wanted a separate crossbow season, I was being sarcastic. I expected some of you to express how unfair it would be to give the crossbow guys the best part of the season. It is a stupid idea especially when we could all hunt the same entire season and not infringe on anyone.

I think any time you set up special rules for a particular group it makes part of that particular group feel superior. After a while some of them start to feel entitled and lobby for more special rules. If successful it reinforces that higher status and before you know it they become quality fishermen or quality hunters and what does that make the rest of us?

I have shot dozens of crossbows but like I said I believe my compound gives me a bigger advantage because of the hours and hours I spent shooting my bow over the years. If you think a crossbow puts you at a disadvantage, practice more and spend more time in the woods and become a savvy hunter and things like crossbows won’t threaten you anymore.

I believe crossbows are a legitimate weapon to use for deer. They kill deer just as effectively as a long bow or compound bow. I can think of many emotional and selfish reasons to deny hunters the use of crossbows during the MI archery season, and although I will never buy one or use one I see no ethical reason why they should not be allowed.
Good post Ray!

[awshucks]

"Not according to the states that allow crossbow use, the define the crossbow differently, change the title of the season or sell separate crossbow licenses. They aren't afraid to admit that they deserve to be separated even if it's by definition.'

Yet more inaccurate drivel, lol, better check Arkansas, dude.

[TOW]

"Not according to the states that allow crossbow use, the define the crossbow differently, change the title of the season or sell separate crossbow licenses. They aren't afraid to admit that they deserve to be separated even if it's by definition.'

Yet more inaccurate drivel, lol, better check Arkansas, dude.


True...

Some states, but not all by a long shot, went with a different classification to do one of two things..

1) Appease the bowhunters.

2) Sell more/different licenses

Me? I don't care what you call them (B52 bombers if it makes them happy) or if there is a seperate license. Just allow people who hunt with archery equipment to hunt in the time period called archery season. Make it a different classification, but hold the season concurrent with each other.

Let each archery hunting tool produce it's own revenues and harvest numbers. Each one will stand or fall on it's own accord.

[Swamp Ghost]

Oh my gosh!! I can not believe this! Swamp Ghost, I sure gave you more credit than that. You're basically giving us the same answer as butter21.

When 'A' or 'B' draws their bow has absolutely no effect on the other guy.



Not at all. The Ruger 99/44 has a much greater range than the Redhawk. The comopund acually has a tad more range than a crossbow.

42 states disagree with you.

It's amazing what can happen when you add a stock and forearm to a pistol.:lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

"Not according to the states that allow crossbow use, the define the crossbow differently, change the title of the season or sell separate crossbow licenses. They aren't afraid to admit that they deserve to be separated even if it's by definition.'

Yet more inaccurate drivel, lol, better check Arkansas, dude.


I guess the other 7 states have it wrong as well......

[Swamp Ghost]

True...

Some states, but not all by a long shot, went with a different classification to do one of two things..

1) Appease the bowhunters.

2) Sell more/different licenses

Me? I don't care what you call them (B52 bombers if it makes them happy) or if there is a seperate license. Just allow people who hunt with archery equipment to hunt in the time period called archery season. Make it a different classification, but hold the season concurrent with each other.

Let each archery hunting tool produce it's own revenues and harvest numbers. Each one will stand or fall on it's own accord.

Are you serious? They defined them differently because they are indeed different.

Different enough to be included or excluded in a season? I guess each state will decide that for themselves.

[BigBirdVA]

Maybe they classified them differently to appease the anti crowd. Maybe it was to keep accurate records. VA did it to generate more funds. Regardless you can call it anything you want. Many have been calling todays compound a primitive weapon when it's far from that and getting farther every day.

All said and done it's a bow that shoots arrows, just like the rest.

[Swamp Ghost]

Maybe they classified them differently to appease the anti crowd. Maybe it was to keep accurate records. VA did it to generate more funds. Regardless you can call it anything you want. Many have been calling todays compound a primitive weapon when it's far from that and getting farther every day.

All said and done it's a bow that shoots arrows, just like the rest.

I give VA a lot of credit, it's the only accurate way to track use and it's effects.

Anyone that calls a compound a primitive weapon is an idiot. And I agree we are getting farther and farther down that slippery slope.

[Joe Archer]

So how do people using crossbows during archery season negatively affect you? What difference does it make to you if they use a bow or a crossbow?
Is this the question that you are trying to find answers for?
If so, all we can do at this point is hope that there will be minimal effects as proponents of crossbows legalization would lead us to believe.
If (and the key word is IF) more than anticipated numbers of rifle only hunters take to the woods with crossbows, you could see opening day of bow season look like opening day of gun season. That would be bad in my mind. In my area, the deer pretty much go nocturnal after the fist couple days of gun season and sightings are non-existent.
And If (IF) the number of new hunters is relatively low, you might end up in an area where they are disproportionately high, and the same scenario as above could occur.
And If (If) Hunting pressure is high enough to mandate changing the current archery season or (Else IF) the state decides to split archery season into vertical versus crossbow to generate revenue (as some have already suggested here) that could have a negative effect on my current hunting situation as well.
In any case, it is all conjecture at this point and HOPEFULLY non of the above will happen.
I have been hunting for too long to lose sleep over it anyway.
<----<<<

[awshucks]

I give VA a lot of credit, it's the only accurate way to track use and it's effects.

Nope, wrong again. Back to Arkansas. We have to report what we shot and how we shot it. That's how Ar knows last season the vert crowd took 10,164 deer, xbows 4,608, and guns the rest to make a total harvest all weapons of 165,663.

[Swamp Ghost]

If your reports are like Ohio's surveys, the over 50 crowd is the only demographic that readily reports using a crossbow.

VA's method is unquestionably far more accurate and very hard to dispute.

[Swamp Ghost]

Is this the question that you are trying to find answers for?
If so, all we can do at this point is hope that there will be minimal effects as proponents of crossbows legalization would lead us to believe.
If (and the key word is IF) more than anticipated numbers of rifle only hunters take to the woods with crossbows, you could see opening day of bow season look like opening day of gun season. That would be bad in my mind. In my area, the deer pretty much go nocturnal after the fist couple days of gun season and sightings are non-existent.
And If (IF) the number of new hunters is relatively low, you might end up in an area where they are disproportionately high, and the same scenario as above could occur.
And If (If) Hunting pressure is high enough to mandate changing the current archery season or (Else IF) the state decides to split archery season into vertical versus crossbow to generate revenue (as some have already suggested here) that could have a negative effect on my current hunting situation as well.
In any case, it is all conjecture at this point and HOPEFULLY non of the above will happen.
I have been hunting for too long to lose sleep over it anyway.
<----<<<

I have to say, nice summary.

[TOW]

42 states disagree with you.

It's amazing what can happen when you add a stock and forearm to a pistol.:lol:

Sorry, you will have to more specific in what the states dont agree with me on????

The subject is how one hunter using a particular piece of archery gear affects another hunter using a different piece of archery gear. You all are still dancing around that one.,

[TOW]

Are you serious? They defined them differently because they are indeed different.

Your proof of that is what?

Different enough to be included or excluded in a season? I guess each state will decide that for themselves.

Yes, they will. And more and more states are coming around to the fact that crossbws have a LOT more positives than negatives.

Michigan for one....

[BigBirdVA]

If your reports are like Ohio's surveys, the over 50 crowd is the only demographic that readily reports using a crossbow.

VA's method is unquestionably far more accurate and very hard to dispute.When I go to Bass Pro and look around it's mostly the older hunters even looking at one. We still have some form of apprehension among hunters that talk of switching to one through injury or inability to do as well with the compound. Guess it's left over peer pressure from all those years of condemning them. It still hasn't taken hold fully here. You don't hear comments or get looks any more but I think it will really take a few more years to be as ingrained as compounds are.

A few years from now it will be forgotten just like the compounds entrance isn't remembered by most.

[TOW]

IF a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his butt when he jumped.

To set your mind at ease - no state that has recently legalized or expanded their crossbow season has had the problems that you have stated. I know, they are not Michigan, but that is the same thing that the folks said in those other states too before the crossbws were legalized for archey season..

[Joe Archer]

IF a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his butt when he jumped.
..
How can you be so sure of this? :lol:
<----<<<

[TOW]

When I go to Bass Pro and look around it's mostly the older hunters even looking at one. We still have some form of apprehension among hunters that talk of switching to one through injury or inability to do as well with the compound. Guess it's left over peer pressure from all those years of condemning them. It still hasn't taken hold fully here. You don't hear comments or get looks any more but I think it will really take a few more years to be as ingrained as compounds are.

A few years from now it will be forgotten just like the compounds entrance isn't remembered by most.

There is definitely a stigma placed on using a crossbow because of physical problems. I know… I swallowed my pride, filled out the paper work and bought a crossbow. Most people are proud and do not want to admit that they have a problem so they just flat out quit bowhunting rather than go through the process of acquiring a handicapped permit. Not to overlook the expense of the doctor or jumping through state mandated hoops.

They know that if they are seen hunting with a crossbow (in a state that doesn’t allow crossbows for the general populace) that they are basically branded a "gimp". No one likes to be thought of as “different”

We even have a bunch of bowhunters that question every physically challenged crossbower as to their handicap. That really sets well with a physically challenged individual.

Then we have self righteous bowhunter groups that are so afraid of crossbows that they would deny any physically challenged individual the right to use a crossbow.

Take a look at the state of New York's requirements for using a crossbow. How utterly disgusting and backed 110% by the NYBA.

The way to get around all this jumping through hoops, the expense of processing claims, and enforcement issues is to just allow everyone that wants to the right to use a crossbow in the archery season. Problem solved…..

[TOW]

How can you be so sure of this? :lol:
<----<<<

OK....

IF a frog had wings and a set of landing gears he wouldn't bump his butt when he jumped.


How is that? ;)

[ridgewalker]

compounds send arrows just as far and in a more stable manner than crossbows. The only advantage is that the crossbow does not have to be drawn back at the time of the kill. With the new compounds having 90% let off, modern trigger devices, and precision sights that is the only advantage. I cannot use my left side so a crossbow would allow me to hunt during the archery season again. As I said on the MUCC thread drs will not help me because the present standards are too narrow or too vague. As someone else said we do not need to jump through more hoops. . . we have more than enough already.

[Splitshot]

Excellent response Joe and your concerns reflect the reasons why many people are against crossbows. It also begs the fundamental question about managing our wildlife, finding ways to financially support our sports and most importantly fairness to other would be outdoors people.

If the state of MI decides that the crossbow is a legitimate weapon then all the concerns you mentioned could come true. Sometimes it takes just one additional hunter to mess up the deer hunting in an area. That would be bad for any one individual, but perhaps a good thing for many others.

I started bow hunting in 1959 and had the entire woods to myself. Not just one area, but everywhere I hunted. Even during the seventies I had the woods to myself. I know there were other bow hunters out there, but we never crossed paths. When compound bows became the rage my bow hunting world changed and it was a radical change.

No matter where I went, there seemed to be hunters everywhere. If I had to guess, I’d say that is the reason the traditional bow hunters were against compound bows. These new comers were infringing on their deer woods and educating the deer. Besides that they were using a weapon that made it easier for the average person to kill a deer. Unethical in the view of many.

I understand how they felt because I was one of them. In trying to protect their turf, they opened some wounds with their emotional rhetoric that have not healed to this day. Should we have opened deer hunting with compound bows? When I look at it today, it is clear in my mind that it was the right thing to do. Yes it changed the reality for many bow hunters, but it opened up opportunities for many others. It brought more money in necessary to manage our wildlife and introduced more people to hunting also a good thing.

I have respect for the traditional guys. What you learned about deer in those days came secretly from close friends and you had to practice hard in order to make the shot when it presented itself.

Personally it took me 12 years before I took my first deer with a recurve. Now we have videos, books and more is published about deer in one month than was published in a decade when I first started.

One thing that has not changed is there are still many people who are more interested in protecting their “turf” than opening up more opportunities for future members of our outdoor community. That selfish attitude seems to be prevalent almost everywhere you look these days. Not only in the hunting and fishing community, but even in the hiking community. Hikers are rejecting bikes and horses for example. And the reason most often given is people just want to protect our fragile, pristine river, stream, hiking trail, lake (insert term)___________.

So while I understand your concern about the possibility messing up your hunting and I feel your pain, I think it would be better if we tried to be more inclusive and welcomed crossbow hunters into our hunting community. All I can say is that it made me a better hunter when I was forced to find ways and places to hunt deer when this army of compound bow hunters started entering the deer woods way back when.

[Joe Archer]

... I think it would be better if we tried to be more inclusive and welcomed crossbow hunters into our hunting community..
I obviously have been hunting for a long time myself and have witnessed both ends of the spectrum first hand. Besides extreme variation in hunting pressure I have lived through a group of poachers moving into a cabin down the road and for years successfully ridding my area of any decent buck. I watched sadly as excessive doe permits nearly obliterated the deer herd I hunt. Through all these years I have come to enjoy bow season in its entirety. I look forward to October 1st as much as I look forward to bow hunting the rut in November. The past few years I have also noted a recovery in the deer heard, the poachers have long since moved on, and hunting pressure has moderated..... Just as I am taking (what I believe) a long deserved and overdue sigh of relief; BAM! Here come the crossbows and that sigh turns into a bit of a gasp. So now I hold my breath for awhile again to see how it all plays out. The only line I clearly would defend is maintaining the length of our current season, and keeping cost at a level that allows me to afford to hunt with my three children. Can you blame me?
In any case, I have already expressed a personal welcome to anyone who will be hunting with crossbows in the early fall woods. All I asked of them is to understand their limitations, the limitations of the crossbow and to take high percentage shots.
<----<<<

[Splitshot]

No Joe, I don't blame you even a little. As far a knowing one's limitations, I second that for all hunters no matter what the weapon.

[November Sunrise]

The over 50 crowd is the only demographic that readily reports using a crossbow.

I haven't really looked at demographic breakdowns, but I do agree with your premise. I hunt in Ohio and have spoken to many of their archers regarding this. Every archer in Ohio that I've crossed paths with who uses a crossbow is either under the age of 14 or over 45.

Understanding the demographic breakdown of who will use a crossbow is a very significant component of understanding how MI hunter numbers will be impacted by crossbow inclusion. It's one reason amongst several of why no one has to worry about an influx of hundreds of thousands of hunters into MI's archery season once crossbows become available for use.

[TOW]

I've seen enough age graphs from other states to say that yes the older one gets the more likely they are to use a crossbow.

The graph from Georgia points out that the number of vetrical bowhunters start taking a nosedive at age 45. Just about that time the number of crossbowers picks up.

Just like the old song says and being an "oldster" myself I can tell you that - "Some days are diamonds and some days are stones" apply to us and shooting our bows. Before my shoulders finally gave out there were days I could shoot 50 or more arrows in the back yard and there were days I could hardly shoot 6..

Others that will find benefit of the crossbows is the people that are juggling maybe two jobs, ball practice with the kids, housekeeping, church, social activities and just have a tough time finding time to practice enough to be proficient with a vertical bow.

That crossbw will be nice when the temps hit single and below digits. ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/Winkies/Georgiacrossbowagegraphs.jpg

[Swamp Ghost]

Sorry, you will have to more specific in what the states dont agree with me on????

The subject is how one hunter using a particular piece of archery gear affects another hunter using a different piece of archery gear. You all are still dancing around that one.,

It's been throughly discussed. Would you like to go through the 1,000's of possible of how it could? Again, I'd rather not.

How does a small game hunter in the next 40 effect mine or your deer hunting?

One way or another it does.

How does another bowhunter using a bow in the next 40 effect mine or your deer hunting if that bowhunter decides to walk your property line an hour after sunrise?

One way or another it does.

[Munsterlndr]

It's been throughly discussed. Would you like to go through the 1,000's of possible of how it could? Again, I'd rather not.

How does a small game hunter in the next 40 effect mine or your deer hunting?

One way or another it does.

How does another bowhunter using a bow in the next 40 effect mine or your deer hunting if that bowhunter decides to walk your property line an hour after sunrise?

One way or another it does.

So we can assume that you are opposed to any new hunters joining the ranks, regardless of what weapon they may choose to employ, because they may walk along the property line on the neighboring property and thus disrupt or impact your hunt? :confused:

[November Sunrise]

I've seen enough age graphs from other states to say that yes the older one gets the more likely they are to use a crossbow.



Hey, don't ever underestimate the influence of testosterone, machismo, and the male ego as well. Most archery hunters are guys, and there isn't a guy in his existence who in his 20's doesn't fancy himself as being at least somewhat above average in terms of his overall qualifications for being a stud. A he man amongst he men as it were. All of us who have been around a little longer recognize that as time goes by the bluster tends to fade away some, and in some cases it just goes away fully. During that process a man will reach the point where he begins to genuinely not care a whole lot about what others think, including what type of bow he shoots.

Meanwhile, it is the dynamic of the male ego and worrying about what his buddies will think that will be the reason why crossbow use will never be a huge trend for the 15-45 year olds. It doesn't fit with their image of who most of them like to think of themselves as being.

[Swamp Ghost]

I haven't really looked at demographic breakdowns, but I do agree with your premise. I hunt in Ohio and have spoken to many of their archers regarding this. Every archer in Ohio that I've crossed paths with who uses a crossbow is either under the age of 14 or over 45.

Understanding the demographic breakdown of who will use a crossbow is a very significant component of understanding how MI hunter numbers will be impacted by crossbow inclusion. It's one reason amongst several of why no one has to worry about an influx of hundreds of thousands of hunters into MI's archery season once crossbows become available for use.

I don't think anyone believes that hundreds of thousands of hunters are going to take up the crossbow. But one look at Ohio and it makes you wonder. If MI has similar participation by it's firearm hunter's in archery season as Ohio does what could that do to MI's deer herd with MI's current reg.'s? Ohio's reg.'s cap the possible negative impacts of such participation.



Meanwhile, it is the dynamic of the male ego and worrying about what his buddies will think that will be the reason why crossbow use will never be a huge trend for the 15-45 year olds. It doesn't fit with their image of who most of them like to think of themselves as being.

ODNR stated the over 50 demographic was more willing to admit crossbow use. I think crossbow use is actually alot higher than the ODNR reports exactly for the reason above. Quite a few will use a crossbow to harvest a deer and tell their buddies and the ODNR they did it with a bow.

[Swamp Ghost]

So we can assume that you are opposed to any new hunters joining the ranks, regardless of what weapon they may choose to employ, because they may walk along the property line on the neighboring property and thus disrupt or impact your hunt? :confused:

Another assumption, surprise surprise.

[November Sunrise]

I don't think anyone believes that hundreds of thousands of hunters are going to take up the crossbow. But one look at Ohio and it makes you wonder. If MI has similar participation by it's firearm hunter's in archery season as Ohio does what could that do to MI's deer herd with MI's current reg.'s? Ohio's reg.'s cap the possible negative impacts of such participation.

Does anyone actually know what Ohio's hunter numbers are? My understanding is that Ohio has 500,000 deer hunters, 200,000 of which are archers, but I don't know if I have those numbers right.

I don't have any idea what everyone actually believes in terms of how many new archers crossbows will bring into the ranks. I do know that on another site someone posted an email from MBH that read "MI currently has more than 400,000 firearm deer hunters who have never taken up the challenge of bowhunting and who would flock to the bow season if they could shoot arrows with guns in October. The resulting social and biological impact will, in all probability, force the DNR to dramatically reduce the length of the archery season". Now, that statement captures the fear mongering that is being done - whether or not the majority of the people who read that are falling for the message is unclear.

[Joe Archer]

Meanwhile, it is the dynamic of the male ego and worrying about what his buddies will think that will be the reason why crossbow use will never be a huge trend for the 15-45 year olds. It doesn't fit with their image of who most of them like to think of themselves as being.

If you look at the graphs provided a few posts earlier you will see fairly consistent trends for crossbows and vertical bows through age 49. If what you say were true, than we should have just made crossbows legal for us 50 and older hunters.
<----<<<

[Munsterlndr]

Another assumption, surprise surprise.

Simply applying logic (a novel concept) to your statement. You voiced concerns about the potential impact of a small game hunter or a crossbow hunter walking along your property line and influencing your hunt, Ergo other new hunters should raise a similar concern. You have voiced opposition to crossbows based on the impact they might have on your bow season, the logical conclusion would be that you are opposed to the addition of new hunters using any type of weapon.

But maybe logic does not apply in your world. ;)

[Swamp Ghost]

Does anyone actually know what Ohio's hunter numbers are? My understanding is that Ohio has 500,000 deer hunters, 200,000 of which are archers, but I don't know if I have those numbers right.



They are around here somewhere. :lol:

An estimated 255,000/78.5% of Ohio hunters participate in Ohio's archery season. If MI had similar participation (possibly 530,000 hunters) with our current reg.'s and continued the 25 year trend of harvesting far more antlered deer to antlerless in bowseason, the results would be disastrous to the 1.5 year old buck population.

[Munsterlndr]

If If what you say were true, than we should have just made crossbows legal for us 50 and older hunters.
<----<<<

:lol: Good luck! MBH/MTB vocally opposed the change to current law that would have provided for the automatic granting of a crossbow permit to anyone age 69 or older!

They had visions of hordes of crossbow wielding septuagenarians rampaging through the woods and wreaking havoc on the cherished traditions of bow season! :lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

Simply applying logic (a novel concept) to your statement. You voiced concerns about the potential impact of a small game hunter or a crossbow hunter walking along your property line and influencing your hunt, Ergo other new hunters should raise a similar concern. You have voiced opposition to crossbows based on the impact they might have on your bow season, the logical conclusion would be that you are opposed to the addition of new hunters using any type of weapon.

But maybe logic does not apply in your world. ;)

Not a crossbow hunter, a bowhunter. Anyways, as I have stated before I would welcome every MI firearm hunter into MI's bowseason, if they were using a bow.

But stating that what another hunter is or isn't using will have not have any effect on another hunter is Utopian thinking.

[November Sunrise]

If you look at the graphs provided a few posts earlier you will see fairly consistent trends for crossbows and vertical bows through age 49. If what you say were true, than we should have just made crossbows legal for us 50 and older hunters.
<----<<<

Keep in mind Joe that nothing's been made legal yet.

My experience with crossbows is on the other end of the spectrum. It's with my second oldest son tagging his first buck in Ohio when he was 9 and his second buck last fall right after he turned 11. He's still at least one full year, and possibly several, from being able to draw sufficient poundage for me to permit him to archery hunt in Michigan. He's very accurate with a crossbow out to 20- 25 yards, beyond that I won't let him shoot. As it stands now I could take him afield in MI and let him fling arrows out of a 20 lb draw weight bow, but I can't let him go afield with our crossbow and make a high percentage kill shot with that.

Anyway, you and I know that all of this has been bandied about for some time, I'm not saying anything new with that point above. I guess the key point at this time is that after hearing both sides of the issue the committee members in the house voted overwhelmingly in favor of full inclusion and the full house fell in line with that vote. If that happens in the senate crossbows will become legal for all, if not they won't. Time will tell.

[Munsterlndr]

Not a crossbow hunter, a bowhunter. Anyways, as I have stated before I would welcome every MI firearm hunter into MI's bowseason, if they were using a bow.

But not if they were using a crossbow. So you would welcome an additional 320,000 vertical bow users into the existing bow season but if say,...25 new crossbow hunters show up, it's the end of the world? I forgot, logic seems not to be a part of your world.

So now 5 pages later in this thread we are back to Boehr's question which none of you anti's seem to want to give a straight answer to. ;)


If person 'A' wants to hunt with a recurve or compound what effect does person 'B' that is hunting with a crossbow have on person 'A'?

I am talking about effects that would be different if person 'B' was also using a compound, not a crossbow.

Differences?

[Swamp Ghost]

But not if they were using a crossbow. So you would welcome an additional 320,000 vertical bow users into the existing bow season but if say,...25 new crossbow hunters show up, it's the end of the world? I forgot, logic seems not to be a part of your world.


Logic? I guess I'll take being called illogical over being greedy.

I would much rather take on able-bodied hunters that are willing to participate in a season with the rules in place than able-bodied hunters that will participate only if the rules are changed.

[NoWake]

So now 5 pages later in this thread we are back to Boehr's question which none of you anti's seem to want to give a straight answer to. ;)

Sounds to me like the House of Representatives were kind of sticklers about straight answers. Maybe the Senate won't be so picky with such petty things. :lol:

[Freestone]

I'm 42 yrs. old with two young boys 4 & 7 yrs. old. I have very little free time between baseball, soccer, cub scouts etc. I've bowhunted for about 13 years but have only gone out maybe 15 times in the last five years. I don't have time to practice as much as is required with a bow to maintain a high level of accuracy. I've always felt guilty the times I did go because I didn't feel well prepared. Since a crossbow from what I've heard is easier to master I think I'll be able to go into the woods with confidence that I'm prepared as long as I take the time to practice. Hopefully it won't require as much time as my compound bow does. I'm not lazy, just looking forward to spending a little more time in the woods during archery season.

[November Sunrise]

Sounds to me like the House of Representatives were kind of sticklers about straight answers. Maybe the Senate won't be so picky with such petty things. :lol:

Hey!! Enough of this house/senate talk. We want more math questions from you:D.

[butter21]

Keep in mind Joe that nothing's been made legal yet.

My experience with crossbows is on the other end of the spectrum. It's with my second oldest son tagging his first buck in Ohio when he was 9 and his second buck last fall right after he turned 11. He's still at least one full year, and possibly several, from being able to draw sufficient poundage for me to permit him to archery hunt in Michigan. He's very accurate with a crossbow out to 20- 25 yards, beyond that I won't let him shoot. As it stands now I could take him afield in MI and let him fling arrows out of a 20 lb draw weight bow, but I can't let him go afield with our crossbow and make a high percentage kill shot with that.

Anyway, you and I know that all of this has been bandied about for some time, I'm not saying anything new with that point above. I guess the key point at this time is that after hearing both sides of the issue the committee members in the house voted overwhelmingly in favor of full inclusion and the full house fell in line with that vote. If that happens in the senate crossbows will become legal for all, if not they won't. Time will tell.
I started hunting with a bow when i was 12 the first year i could. I think i was pulling a little under 35 pounds. When i started practicing i could barley pull back 30 pounds, but the more you practice the strong you get with those muscles. Kinda the problem we get when we lowered the age of bow hunters, now everyone is complaining that there sons and daughters cant pull back a bow. Id be more in favor of anyone younger the age of 15 be able to use a crossbow, and over 65.
But not if they were using a crossbow. So you would welcome an additional 320,000 vertical bow users into the existing bow season but if say,...25 new crossbow hunters show up, it's the end of the world? I forgot, logic seems not to be a part of your world.

So now 5 pages later in this thread we are back to Boehr's question which none of you anti's seem to want to give a straight answer to. ;)
I though crossbows were going to bring many more hunters to the sport? Unless by many more you meant 25.

[NoWake]

Hey!! Enough of this house/senate talk. We want more math questions from you:D.


After you pointed out how utterly simple and obvious the solution to my last one was, I am too ashamed to ask for any more assistance in the math department. :o

[Swamp Ghost]

On to logical, What is the logic in taking perceived effects in one segment or demographic and then basing legislation for all segments and demographics on that perception?

Could an individual's over-riding desire to use a crossbow in MI's bowseason lead to such a thing?

Only an assumption.......:evilsmile

[Munsterlndr]

On to logical, What is the logic in taking perceived effects in one segment or demographic and then basing legislation for all segments and demographics on that perception?

Could an individual's over-riding desire to use a crossbow in MI's bowseason lead to such a thing?

Only an assumption.......:evilsmile

However, it is an unwarranted assumption because it is based on the faulty logic that the effect demonstrated by one demographic is the only basis for supporting legislation that covers all of the various demographics. ;)

[bigcountrysg]

Wow I never expected this thread to go for so long. I have not kept track with it because I have voiced my opinions already.

It seems as if there are a few people that are very conservitive and refuse change. Then there are a few people that are liberal and want change.
The thing is Michigan never had a Bow season it was always Archery Season. Wether you like it or not. Crossbows are Archery Equipment and should have the same restrictions as the bows have.

[November Sunrise]

After you pointed out how utterly simple and obvious the solution to my last one was, I am too ashamed to ask for any more assistance in the math department. :o

I'll take it easier on you next time;).

[TOW]

It's been throughly discussed. Would you like to go through the 1,000's of possible of how it could? Again, I'd rather not.

How does a small game hunter in the next 40 effect mine or your deer hunting?

One way or another it does.

How does another bowhunter using a bow in the next 40 effect mine or your deer hunting if that bowhunter decides to walk your property line an hour after sunrise?

One way or another it does.

You're dancing around the question. Certainly any of what you have said can affect a person's hunt. We've all had hunts screwed up by others or dogs or whatever. But, that was not the question - What difference does it make if that hunter (small game or walking the line or just hunting) if he has a crossbow in his hands instead of a compound bow?

That is the question..

There is no difference in how it affects your hunt is there?

[BigBirdVA]

You're dancing around the question. Certainly any of what you have said can affect a person's hunt. We've all had hunts screwed up by others or dogs or whatever. But, that was not the question - What difference does it make if that hunter (small game or walking the line or just hunting) if he has a crossbow in his hands instead of a compound bow?

That is the question..

There is no difference in how it affects your hunt is there?Simple, they honestly think that no one using a xbow is a capable hunter. It's anti-xbow reason # 6 - All xbow hunters are slobs, lazy or gun hunters without a cue looking to bag an easy deer. It's a scare tactic to make you feel if you're ever going to have a problem in the woods during bow season it's going to be an xbow guy causing it. 2 of the worst hunters I've ever seen on a public land hunt were using recurves and the other a compound. It's the hunter not the weapon. One of the .pdf files floating around here on xbows gives stats and it's about equal for violations with compounds 1 ahead. Just another scare tactic to justify exemption.

[Swamp Ghost]

You'll never know until it does.

I really don't see anyone "dancing" around the issue. I have proposed similar scenarios with various types on weaponry. I've gotten responses to the effect of "Well with a 30-06 you can reach out and touch them" or "They go boom".

It's obvious that most hunters can see the advantage of certain weapons in a variety of situations. Some hunters can see the rationale of keeping certain weapons out of certain seasons. They draw the line when it uses combustion or some other form of propulsion, because they feel they don't belong or could have an "effect" on other hunters or game.

If it is "OK" or reasonable for crossbow guys to draw a line on what is allowable and what isn't or have an opinion about the "effects" of a weapon based on range or propulsion. Why does the same rationale not apply to a bowhunter's opinions about the effects of another hunter not having to come to full draw in the presence of game? Why is it "unacceptable" for some that most bowhunters draw their line when it comes to drawing on game.

[Swamp Ghost]

Simple, they honestly think that no one using a xbow is a capable hunter. It's anti-xbow reason # 6 - All xbow hunters are slobs, lazy or gun hunters without a cue looking to bag an easy deer. It's a scare tactic to make you feel if you're ever going to have a problem in the woods during bow season it's going to be an xbow guy causing it. 2 of the worst hunters I've ever seen on a public land hunt were using recurves and the other a compound. It's the hunter not the weapon. One of the .pdf files floating around here on xbows gives stats and it's about equal for violations with compounds 1 ahead. Just another scare tactic to justify exemption.

Quite the opposite, I know more than few capable firearm hunters that have no desire to pick up a bow and bowhunt beacuse of their lack of "archery" skills. These same guys would make a very easy transition to being very capable crossbow hunters.

[BigBirdVA]

...........Why does the same rationale not apply to a bowhunter's opinions about the effects of another hunter not having to come to full draw in the presence of game? Why is it "unacceptable" for some that most bowhunters draw their line when it comes to drawing on game.So you're against ground blinds where game can't see you come to draw? Ground blinds totally negate the drawing aspect of archery. Drawing on game is the one and only difference in xbow use so that's the big arguing point. Watch the TV shows drawing is rarely an issue on a hunt. It was rarely and issue for me when I shot a compound but if it's all you have for an argument it's a big deal.

[olliek]

Almost 200 replies later it still boils down to long bow and compound bow users being greedy and eletist in thier attitude toward crossbows. Plain and simple, they do not want to share `thier`season with anyone. If they could, they would, eliminate small game and bird hunters during `thier` season so the guy on the next 40 would not disturb `thier` hunt. Elete, greed, I do not know how else to discribe thier attitude. Dave.

[Munsterlndr]

If it is "OK" or reasonable for crossbow guys to draw a line on what is allowable and what isn't or have an opinion about the "effects" of a weapon based on range or propulsion. Why does the same rationale not apply to a bowhunter's opinions about the effects of another hunter not having to come to full draw in the presence of game? Why is it "unacceptable" for some that most bowhunters draw their line when it comes to drawing on game.

Because the difference between using a firearm vs. a bow is a quantifiable difference with a different outcome. The fact that a firearm "goes boom" has an identifiable and substantive impact on other hunters hunting in a silent season.

The same distinction cannot be made when comparing and contrasting crossbows and vertical bows. If a hunter on the next 40 uses a crossbow compared to a vertical bow, it has no impact on hunters on adjacent properties. The sounds made by both weapons are both essentially silent unless you are very, very close by.

Firearms have a substantially greater range and effective killing power than either vertical bows or crossbows. They employ a different method of causing death. Firearms hunters enjoy a higher success rate. Again, these are quantifiable and verifiable differences between the two types of weapons.

Vertical bows and crossbows have essentially the same effective range and killing power. Both employ the same method of causing death hemorrhage caused by the cutting of a bladed projectile, powered by the energy stores in limbs and transferred through a string to the arrow. Both are silent weapons and both have very similar success rates in every state were they are employed during the same season.

Our lines are drawn based on logic and rational thinking. Your lines are drawn on arbitrary, emotional minutiae. It's pretty clear the Legislature recognized the merits of both arguments and acted accordingly. ;)

[Swamp Ghost]

Because the difference between using a firearm vs. a bow is a quantifiable difference with a different outcome. The fact that a firearm "goes boom" has an identifiable and substantive impact on other hunters hunting in a silent season.

The same distinction cannot be made when comparing and contrasting crossbows and vertical bows. If a hunter on the next 40 uses a crossbow compared to a vertical bow, it has no impact on hunters on adjacent properties. The sounds made by both weapons are both essentially silent unless you are very, very close by.

Firearms have a substantially greater range and effective killing power than either vertical bows or crossbows. They employ a different method of causing death. Firearms hunters enjoy a higher success rate. Again, these are quantifiable and verifiable differences between the two types of weapons.

Vertical bows and crossbows have essentially the same effective range and killing power. Both employ the same method of causing death hemorrhage caused by the cutting of a bladed projectile, powered by the energy stores in limbs and transferred through a string to the arrow. Both are silent weapons and both have very similar success rates in every state were they are employed during the same season.

Our lines are drawn based on logic and rational thinking. Your lines are drawn on arbitrary, emotional minutiae. It's pretty clear the Legislature recognized the merits of both arguments and acted accordingly. ;)

If you are willing to draw a line somewhere, be it the loud weapons vs. quiet weapons. You have drawn a line, found a reason for exclusion, you clearly see a limit. You are willing to limit choices, as long as it fits your agenda.

[Swamp Ghost]

So you're against ground blinds where game can't see you come to draw? Ground blinds totally negate the drawing aspect of archery. Drawing on game is the one and only difference in xbow use so that's the big arguing point. Watch the TV shows drawing is rarely an issue on a hunt. It was rarely and issue for me when I shot a compound but if it's all you have for an argument it's a big deal.

Let's see here, a crossbowhunter like yourself really shouldn't be whining about SOME bowhunters using a ground blind. At least ALL bowhunters have to draw their weapon while in a blind.

[Munsterlndr]

If you are willing to draw a line somewhere, be it the loud weapons vs. quiet weapons. You have drawn a line, found a reason for exclusion, you clearly see a limit. You are willing to limit choices, as long as it fits your agenda.

Of course lines are drawn, the question being are the decisions that are made for establishing criteria for different weapons and seasons based on a substantive and rational basis or are they based on emotional, superficial reasons. The basis used by most anti's regarding the inclusion of crossbows is an arbitrary and emotional one. It is akin to the anti gun forces including an AR-15 in a list of guns to be banned, because it "looks" like a military weapon, while allowing a Remington woodsmaster because it "looks" like a traditional rifle. Completely arbitrary and superficial criteria that don't stand up to a rational analysis. It has nothing to do with an agenda it has to do with logic versus emotion.

[Joe Archer]

You're dancing around the question. Certainly any of what you have said can affect a person's hunt. We've all had hunts screwed up by others or dogs or whatever. But, that was not the question - What difference does it make if that hunter (small game or walking the line or just hunting) if he has a crossbow in his hands instead of a compound bow?

That is the question..

There is no difference in how it affects your hunt is there?

I think I answered the original question posed in this thread at least once.
Is this the question that you are trying to find answers for?
If so, all we can do at this point is hope that there will be minimal effects as proponents of crossbows legalization would lead us to believe.
If (and the key word is IF) more than anticipated numbers of rifle only hunters take to the woods with crossbows, you could see opening day of bow season look like opening day of gun season. That would be bad in my mind. In my area, the deer pretty much go nocturnal after the fist couple days of gun season and sightings are non-existent.
And If (IF) the number of new hunters is relatively low, you might end up in an area where they are disproportionately high, and the same scenario as above could occur.
And If (If) Hunting pressure is high enough to mandate changing the current archery season or (Else IF) the state decides to split archery season into vertical versus crossbow to generate revenue (as some have already suggested here) that could have a negative effect on my current hunting situation as well.
In any case, it is all conjecture at this point and HOPEFULLY non of the above will happen.
I have been hunting for too long to lose sleep over it anyway.

Let me expand a little more for those of you who like to use crossbow states to predict our future.
Swamp Ghost posted a reply that pointed out that 78.5 percent of Ohio's hunters participate in the archery season since the inclusion of cross bows. Last year Michigan sold a total of 724,239 deer hunting licenses and had 300,000 bow hunters. Here is the math (724,239 x .785) - 300,000 = 258,527. That means if we see the same rate in Michigan we can expect 258,527 additional archery hunters. That is nearly DOUBLE the numbers that we had last year and more than three times the 80,000 loss we have witnessed in the last decade.
My fear is if that happens it could have a negative effect on the length of the current archery season.
<----<<<

[Munsterlndr]

I think I answered the original question posed in this thread at least once.


Let me expand a little more for those of you who like to use crossbow states to predict our future.
Swamp Ghost posted a reply that pointed out that 78.5 percent of Ohio's hunters participate in the archery season since the inclusion of cross bows. Last year Michigan sold a total of 724,239 deer hunting licenses and had 300,000 bow hunters. Here is the math (724,239 x .785) - 300,000 = 258,527. That means if we see the same rate in Michigan we can expect 258,527 additional archery hunters. That is nearly DOUBLE the numbers that we had last year and more than three times the 80,000 loss we have witnessed in the last decade.
My fear is if that happens it could have a negative effect on the length of the current archery season.
<----<<<

Joe -

Your first problem is believing Swamp ghosts numbers. ;)

Ohio has 500,000 deer hunters, 200,000 of which bow hunt. That is a 40% archery participation rate.

Michigan had 683,000 deer hunters in 2007. 300,324 of those hunters hunted during bow season. That is a 44% archery participation rate.

The two states are pretty similar. Adding crossbows to Michigan is not going to cause a tremendous change in the bow hunting participation rate. Based on increased participation from other states when the rules change, you are realistically looking at about a 10-15% increase in the number of hunters participating in archery season. That's 30-45,000 additional hunters, well short of the 80,000 additional bow hunters that we had a decade ago. The sky is not falling! ;)

[Joe Archer]

Joe -

Your first problem is believing Swamp ghosts numbers. ;)

Ohio has 500,000 deer hunters, 200,000 of which bow hunt. That is a 40% archery participation rate.

Michigan had 683,000 deer hunters in 2007. 300,324 of those hunters hunted during bow season. That is a 44% archery participation rate.

The two states are pretty similar. Adding crossbows to Michigan is not going to cause a tremendous change in the bow hunting participation rate. Based on increased participation from other states when the rules change, you are realistically looking at about a 10-15% increase in the number of hunters participating in archery season. That's 30-45,000 additional hunters, well short of the 80,000 additional bow hunters that we had a decade ago.

The only number that I used that I did not look up myself was the Ohio arhery hunting rate from Swamp (78.5%) . Please SWAMP GHOST if this is accurate let us know the source.
The other numbers I used came from the published Michigan Deer Hunting report.
<----<<<

[Munsterlndr]

The only number that I used that I did not look up myself was the Ohio arhery hunting rate from Swamp (78.5%) . Please SWAMP GHOST if this is accurate let us know the source.
The other numbers I used came from the published Michigan Deer Hunting report.
<----<<<

I think you mis-interpreted SG's post. I believe he was referring to the percentage of archers who use crossbows within the Ohio archery season, although I may be wrong and if that is the case that number seems substantially high since I think the actual number is around 56% of Ohio archers use crossbows.

The total number of Michigan deer hunters in 2007 was approx. 683,000. That comes from from the 2007 Michigan annual deer hunting survey report, which is available online.

Look at the bottom of the column for 2007 on Pg. 24 and you will see the total number of deer hunters participating in all deer seasons was 682,962.

[November Sunrise]

I think I answered the original question posed in this thread at least once.


Let me expand a little more for those of you who like to use crossbow states to predict our future.
Swamp Ghost posted a reply that pointed out that 78.5 percent of Ohio's hunters participate in the archery season since the inclusion of cross bows. Last year Michigan sold a total of 724,239 deer hunting licenses and had 300,000 bow hunters. Here is the math (724,239 x .785) - 300,000 = 258,527. That means if we see the same rate in Michigan we can expect 258,527 additional archery hunters. That is nearly DOUBLE the numbers that we had last year and more than three times the 80,000 loss we have witnessed in the last decade.
My fear is if that happens it could have a negative effect on the length of the current archery season.
<----<<<

Most recent year I could find info for is '04.

Number of licensed deer hunters in Ohio was 350,000. Landowners in Ohio do not have to purchase a license to deer hunt and the estimated number of deer hunting landowners was 125,000, leading to total deer hunter numbers of 475,000. The number of bowhunters was 250,000. A little over half of Ohio deer hunters archery hunt.

[Swamp Ghost]

Of course lines are drawn, the question being are the decisions that are made for establishing criteria for different weapons and seasons based on a substantive and rational basis or are they based on emotional, superficial reasons. The basis used by most anti's regarding the inclusion of crossbows is an arbitrary and emotional one. It is akin to the anti gun forces including an AR-15 in a list of guns to be banned, because it "looks" like a military weapon, while allowing a Remington woodsmaster because it "looks" like a traditional rifle. Completely arbitrary and superficial criteria that don't stand up to a rational analysis. It has nothing to do with an agenda it has to do with logic versus emotion.

Arbitrary? Superficial? These weapons are fundamentally different, they are not allowed in archery season in 42 states because of these fundamental differences. They are also defined differently in the states that allow them.

I feel that a compound bow is advantaged to a unscoped .357, with their effective range being roughly the same, using your rationale there is no logical reason to keep them out of archery season, they are virtually the same. But we do because they are not bows, they are different, we have drawn a line.

Sometime in the very near future some one may just decide to take "scientific data" to a politician that proves pistols, flintlocks or sidelock muzzleloader will have no negative effect on the herd, uses the same hunting skills, adds hunters into archery season, retains hunters, have lower success rates than crossbows, increase revenue, etc.

The same could be said for legalizing rifles in Zone 3, I mean we already have 200-250 yard in-lines, and 200 yard saboted slug guns, the same rationale applies.

Choice Gone Wild! 2010! :evilsmile

[Joe Archer]

Most recent year I could find info for is '04.

Number of licensed deer hunters in Ohio was 350,000. Landowners in Ohio do not have to purchase a license to deer hunt and the estimated number of deer hunting landowners was 125,000, leading to total deer hunter numbers of 475,000. The number of bowhunters was 250,000. A little over half of Ohio deer hunters archery hunt.
Who knows what the non-licensed hunters used, but their choice most likely would parrallel licensed hunters. In your account 250/350 = 71.4%. It looks like Swamp Ghost's numbers may be accurate after all.
<----<<<

[Munsterlndr]

Most recent year I could find info for is '04.

Number of licensed deer hunters in Ohio was 350,000. Landowners in Ohio do not have to purchase a license to deer hunt and the estimated number of deer hunting landowners was 125,000, leading to total deer hunter numbers of 475,000. The number of bowhunters was 250,000. A little over half of Ohio deer hunters archery hunt.

Excerpt from a 2005 Ohio DNR publication: "Managing Ohio's Deer Herd"
"Estimated deer hunter numbers have increased from 19,000 in 1965 to an estimated 500,000 in 2005."

PDF of this report available at:
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/portals/0/education/wilddeerherd/pdf/managingohiosherd.pdf

If your number of bowhunters is accurate, then there would be an archery participation rate of 50%. As mentioned above Michigan is currently at 44%. The best estimates that I have seen would put the potential increase resulting from crossbow inclusion between 10-15%, meaning we would be at 54-59% percent participation, still not much different than Ohio is currently if your figures are correct.

[Swamp Ghost]

Most recent year I could find info for is '04.

Number of licensed deer hunters in Ohio was 350,000. Landowners in Ohio do not have to purchase a license to deer hunt and the estimated number of deer hunting landowners was 125,000, leading to total deer hunter numbers of 475,000. The number of bowhunters was 250,000. A little over half of Ohio deer hunters archery hunt.

Ohio 2006 Hunter Survey

Total Archers 255,000

78.4% of Ohio Hunters hunted with Archery in Fall 2006; 255,000 of
325,000 paid hunters.

http://www.crossbow.com/uploads/CrossbowDyn41808-1226.pdf

Pg. 38

[November Sunrise]

Who knows what the non-licensed hunters used, but their choice most likely would parrallel licensed hunters. In your account 250/350 = 71.4%. It looks like Swamp Ghost's numbers may be accurate after all.
<----<<<

No, that's not what I was saying, and that's not what the numbers reflect. The Ohio DNR's numbers that they were reporting in '04 was roughly 250,000 archers out of roughly 475,000 total hunters. The reason I threw in the information on landowners is to explain why their numbers aren't right down to the exact quantity in the way that we have them in MI.

At some point soon I'll have the most up to date numbers from Ohio. When I get them I'll post them on here.

[Munsterlndr]

Who knows what the non-licensed hunters used, but their choice most likely would parrallel licensed hunters. In your account 250/350 = 71.4%. It looks like Swamp Ghost's numbers may be accurate after all.
<----<<<

Joe -
Landowners still make up part of the total deer hunter number regardless of what weapon they use. You can't just ignore them from the total. NS numbers are 475,000 for 2004. My post above says 500,000 total Ohio deer hunters for 2005 and that is from an Ohio DNR publication. Swamp Ghosts numbers are not even close to reality no matter how badly you crunch them. :rolleyes:

[Munsterlndr]

Ohio 2006 Hunter Survey

Total Archers 255,000

78.4% of Ohio Hunters hunted with Archery in Fall 2006; 255,000 of
325,000 paid hunters.

http://www.crossbow.com/uploads/CrossbowDyn41808-1226.pdf

Pg. 38

The figure you quote excludes 100,000 landowner hunters who did not purchase a license yet still hunted and 40,000 hunters who purchased a senior license. If you look at the hunter total in that chart it says there were 475,000 total deer hunters. I'd also note that the source of these figures was not the Ohio DNR but a private survey conducted by Ohio State.

[Munsterlndr]

Arbitrary? Superficial? These weapons are fundamentally different, they are not allowed in archery season in 42 states because of these fundamental differences. They are also defined differently in the states that allow them.

I feel that a compound bow is advantaged to a unscoped .357, with their effective range being roughly the same, using your rationale there is no logical reason to keep them out of archery season, they are virtually the same. But we do because they are not bows, they are different, we have drawn a line.

Sometime in the very near future some one may just decide to take "scientific data" to a politician that proves pistols, flintlocks or sidelock muzzleloader will have no negative effect on the herd, uses the same hunting skills, adds hunters into archery season, retains hunters, have lower success rates than crossbows, increase revenue, etc.

The same could be said for legalizing rifles in Zone 3, I mean we already have 200-250 yard in-lines, and 200 yard saboted slug guns, the same rationale applies.

Choice Gone Wild! 2010! :evilsmile

As has been pointed out several times before your analogy is flawed because a .357 Magnum go's boom. :rolleyes:

[November Sunrise]

Ohio 2006 Hunter Survey

Total Archers 255,000

78.4% of Ohio Hunters hunted with Archery in Fall 2006; 255,000 of
325,000 paid hunters.

http://www.crossbow.com/uploads/CrossbowDyn41808-1226.pdf

Pg. 38

The percentage of paid hunters is not relevant - whoever made that a point of emphasis on the chart is emphasizing an irrelevant point. The chart shows 300,000 archers out of 475,000 total deer hunters. That's a 63% archery participation rate, which is significantly different than what the department was reporting for '04. Which is why I've went directly to my contact person in Ohio and am waiting to get the actual numbers. If we're going to dally in debating Ohio numbers it would at least be nice to know what the actual numbers are :).

In addition, the success rates of Ohio archery hunters in recent years are radically higher than is being reported on one of the early pages in that report.

[November Sunrise]

The figure you quote excludes 100,000 landowner hunters who did not purchase a license yet still hunted and 40,000 hunters who purchased a senior license. If you look at the hunter total in that chart it says there were 475,000 total deer hunters. I'd also note that the source of these figures was not the Ohio DNR but a private survey conducted by Ohio State.

I'll wait until I hear back from my contact in Ohio until I speculate further, but I'm guessing that those are very solid numbers, as they jive well with the harvest reports and expected success rates.

[TOW]

Arbitrary? Superficial? These weapons are fundamentally different, they are not allowed in archery season in 42 states because of these fundamental differences. They are also defined differently in the states that allow them.



You keep throwing that “they (crossbows) are not allowed in archery season in 42 states” around…

Let’s set the record straight, OK?.

State Regulations on Crossbow Usage


(14 states) Allow crossbows use in archery season by everyone (including non-physically challenged individuals) in one form or another.

The following is the breakdown of that crossbow usage in archery season:

(9 states) Wyoming, Arkansas, Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, Virginia, Ohio and South Carolina allow crossbows for everyone the entire archery season.

(4 States) Indiana, Florida, Kentucky and Maryland allow crossbows to be used by everyone during a portion of the archery season.

(1 state) Pennsylvania allows crossbows to be used by everyone in archery season in urban areas.

(17 states) Washington, Idaho, Utah, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Kansas, Iowa, North Dakota, South Dakota, North Carolina, West Virginia, New Jersey, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Hawaii and Vermont allow physically challenged hunters to use a crossbow in archery season. These states do not allow any of the physically challenged hunters to use any other type of hunting tool during the archery season.

(13 states) California, Alaska, Arizona, Texas, Colorado, Montana, Nebraska, Missouri, Minnesota, Michigan, Delaware, New Hampshire and Maine allow crossbow use in the firearms season.

(3 states) Illinois (62), Mississippi (65) and Wisconsin (65) and allow non-physically challenged hunters to use a crossbow at a certain age.

(2 states) Nevada and Oregon do not allow the use of crossbows for any reason.

(1 state) New York - the crossbow is illegal except for those that can not wiggle one finger and have to use a breath tube trigger

June 28, 2008

[Joe Archer]

Joe -
Landowners still make up part of the total deer hunter number regardless of what weapon they use. You can't just ignore them from the total.
Do you know what methods these landowners used to hunt deer? Were they subject to the same regulations as licensed hunters?
As others have suggested on these threads lets compare apples to apples; licensed Michigan Hunters to Licensed Ohio hunters. Swamp Ghosts numbers are directly quoted and most likey more valid than numbers produced from conjecture. If so, my estimation of 268,527 new (licensed) archery hunters could be valid as well.
<----<<<

[TOW]

Ohio 2006 Hunter Survey

Total Archers 255,000

78.4% of Ohio Hunters hunted with Archery in Fall 2006; 255,000 of
325,000 paid hunters.

http://www.crossbow.com/uploads/CrossbowDyn41808-1226.pdf

Pg. 38


Key word is PAID....

[November Sunrise]

As has been pointed out several times before your analogy is flawed because a .357 Magnum go's boom. :rolleyes:

Well, keep in mind that the standard for why a crossbow isn't a bow is because you place the stock against your shoulder as you do with a gun. That's why some of the deep thinkers on the other side of the aisle call it a "crossgun", because "you place it against your shoulder just as you do with a gun". Running with that line of thought, a pistol then isn't really a gun because everyone knows that a gun has a stock and must be placed against the shoulder before firing. Ya know, like you do with a crossgun.
Are you with me so far? If a crossgun is a gun and a firearm pistol isn't a gun, wouldn't it stand to reason that the firearm pistol non gun would be incompatible with a crossgun and thus shouldn't pistol use be banned from the firearm deer season? I mean I understand if you want to use a crossgun during gun season that's one thing but let's not kid ourselves that a gun without a stock really isn't a gun and we're tampering with the tradition and heritage of real guns by permitting the pistol guns that aren't real guns because they don't have a stock. I blame all of this on the secular humanist birkenstock wearing liberals that have infiltrated our culture and our jamming their immoral morals down out throats!! Fred Bear must be rolling in his grave!!! Vote 3rd party in '08 and restore American values so that the crossgun users during firearm season no longer have to share the woods with pistol hunters who refuse to hunt like a man by shouldering their weapons:rant:!!!!

[Swamp Ghost]

As has been pointed out several times before your analogy is flawed because a .357 Magnum go's boom. :rolleyes:

If you feel it's fair to limit or exclude a weapon because it goes boom, I feel it's fair to limit or exclude because it doesn't have to be drawn.

[Munsterlndr]

Do you know what methods these landowners used to hunt deer? Were they subject to the same regulations as licensed hunters?
As others have suggested on these threads lets compare apples to apples; licensed Michigan Hunters to Licensed Ohio hunters. Swamp Ghosts numbers are directly quoted and most likey more valid than numbers produced from conjecture.
<----<<<
It does not matter what weapon they used for them to be included in the total number of hunters and yes they are subject to the same seasons and rules. Ohio has mandatory check-in and landowners have to comply with that just like all of the other hunters. If you exclude landowner hunters from the hunting statistics, the result would be numbers that are meaningless. It would be like Michigan saying that we are not going to include deer harvested on Tuesdays in our statistics.

[TOW]

Do you know what methods these landowners used to hunt deer? Were they subject to the same regulations as licensed hunters?
As others have suggested on these threads lets compare apples to apples; licensed Michigan Hunters to Licensed Ohio hunters. Swamp Ghosts numbers are directly quoted and most likey more valid than numbers produced from conjecture. If so, my estimation of 268,527 new (licensed) archery hunters could be valid as well.
<----<<<

Joe,

Since Ohio does not have seperate licenses (they are all bowhunters there) any number in any hunting tool category is estimated from surveys.

[Swamp Ghost]

Key word is PAID....


Keyword is accuracy. Keyword is trackable.

Now the chart/graph is irrelevant? You guys crack me up.

Crossbow guys in a crossbow publication want to emphasize the 78.5% participation for a reason. Now that same 78.5% participation may have negative implications it's irrelevant.

Of to catch some bluegills, see ya in a few days.

[TOW]

If you feel it's fair to limit or exclude a weapon because it goes boom, I feel it's fair to limit of exclude because it doesn't have to be drawn.

You're starting to sound like butter21 now. ;)

We are talking archery versus firearms here.

BTW - if you want to keep archery season as archery seaosn then I think it would be wise to have as many archers hunting as possible. Most times the govenment people listens to the squeakiest wheel and the the 900 pound gorilla called "firearm hunters" might just want a piece of that early season pie. It is happening in a lot of states.. Strength in numbers..

[November Sunrise]

Do you know what methods these landowners used to hunt deer? Were they subject to the same regulations as licensed hunters?
As others have suggested on these threads lets compare apples to apples; licensed Michigan Hunters to Licensed Ohio hunters. Swamp Ghosts numbers are directly quoted and most likey more valid than numbers produced from conjecture. If so, my estimation of 268,527 new (licensed) archery hunters could be valid as well.
<----<<<

Cmon man - I've been reading your posts for years, and I know that you don't try to twist numbers. Don't try do that here - you're better than that. Apples to apples means to compare the percentage of archery hunters out of the total deer hunters. The only way to do that is to go from the total number of hunters. Ohio landowners don't have to buy a license, but all of their results are included in the harvest statistics. They're of course subject to the same regulations. If we pretend that they don't exist in the hunter numbers then it means that every other comparison is also invalid.

[butter21]

It does not matter what weapon they used for them to be included in the total number of hunters and yes they are subject to the same seasons and rules. Ohio has mandatory check-in and landowners have to comply with that just like all of the other hunters. If you exclude landowner hunters from the hunting statistics, the result would be numbers that are meaningless. It would be like Michigan saying that we are not going to include deer harvested on Tuesdays in our statistics.
How many of those 100,000 landowners used crossbows?

[Joe Archer]

Joe,

Since Ohio does not have seperate licenses (they are all bowhunters there) any number in any hunting tool category is estimated from surveys.
Well there you have it! Swamp Ghost post is from a HUNTER survey estimation. It is very likely that land owners who registered deer were included in the survey. If I have the link, I'll check the methods section in the publication to answer this question for sure.
<----<<<

[Swamp Ghost]

Well, keep in mind that the standard for why a crossbow isn't a bow is because you place the stock against your shoulder as you do with a gun. That's why some of the deep thinkers on the other side of the aisle call it a "crossgun", because "you place it against your shoulder just as you do with a gun". Running with that line of thought, a pistol then isn't really a gun because everyone knows that a gun has a stock and must be placed against the shoulder before firing. Ya know, like you do with a crossgun.
Are you with me so far? If a crossgun is a gun and a firearm pistol isn't a gun, wouldn't it stand to reason that the firearm pistol non gun would be incompatible with a crossgun and thus shouldn't pistol use be banned from the firearm deer season? I mean I understand if you want to use a crossgun during gun season that's one thing but let's not kid ourselves that a gun without a stock really isn't a gun and we're tampering with the tradition and heritage of real guns by permitting the pistol guns that aren't real guns because they don't have a stock. I blame all of this on the secular humanist birkenstock wearing liberals that have infiltrated our culture and our jamming their immoral morals down out throats!! Fred Bear must be rolling in his grave!!! Vote 3rd party in '08 and restore American values so that the crossgun users during firearm season no longer have to share the woods with pistol hunters who refuse to hunt like a man by shouldering their weapons:rant:!!!!

A great reason pistol enthusiasts and crossbow enthusiasts could pursue a seperate season. :D

[NoWake]

Well, keep in mind that the standard for why a crossbow isn't a bow is because you place the stock against your shoulder as you do with a gun. That's why some of the deep thinkers on the other side of the aisle call it a "crossgun", because "you place it against your shoulder just as you do with a gun". Running with that line of thought, a pistol then isn't really a gun because everyone knows that a gun has a stock and must be placed against the shoulder before firing. Ya know, like you do with a crossgun.
Are you with me so far? If a crossgun is a gun and a firearm pistol isn't a gun, wouldn't it stand to reason that the firearm pistol non gun would be incompatible with a crossgun and thus shouldn't pistol use be banned from the firearm deer season? I mean I understand if you want to use a crossgun during gun season that's one thing but let's not kid ourselves that a gun without a stock really isn't a gun and we're tampering with the tradition and heritage of real guns by permitting the pistol guns that aren't real guns because they don't have a stock. I blame all of this on the secular humanist birkenstock wearing liberals that have infiltrated our culture and our jamming their immoral morals down out throats!! Fred Bear must be rolling in his grave!!! Vote 3rd party in '08 and restore American values so that the crossgun users during firearm season no longer have to share the woods with pistol hunters who refuse to hunt like a man by shouldering their weapons:rant:!!!!

But what happens if you put a scope on that .357?

[Joe Archer]

We may be on to something here. Do you want to draft a letter that concerned bow hunters on this site, or MBH members can send to their representatives. The information I posted shows that Michigan sold 724,239 deer licenses last season. It also shows that we had about 300,000 bow hunters. Here is the link http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/3485_236922_7.pdf
Combine that with your link and the survey that showed 78.5% of Ohio bow hunters hunted in the archery season and I think the question of the effect of 268,527 new bow hunters becomes valid enough to at least be considered.
If you draft a letter, I would suggest posting it in the traditional forums here, in the archery forums here, and sending it to MBH as well so any one who wishes has a template to contact their representative and express their concern before the final vote.
Good luck in your efforts.
<----<<<

[November Sunrise]

Now the chart/graph is irrelevant? You guys crack me up.

Crossbow guys in a crossbow publication want to emphasize the 78.5% participation for a reason. Now that same 78.5% participation may have negative implications it's irrelevant.

Of to catch some bluegills, see ya in a few days.

I'm not beholden to any entities ability or inability to accurately analyze data. My interest is in an accurate portrayal information not implications of the information. Whoever assembled the chart should have made the emphasis on the percentage of archers out of the total because that's the only pertinent point. They failed to do that so I'm pointing out their failure.

Happy fishing:)!

[10PtCrossbow]

Here are the accurate numbers for OH.

http://www.dnr.ohio.gov/wildlife/dow/regulations/historical.aspx

I got 439,562 hunting lic sold for 2007. 627,827 deer tags sold. Feel free to check my numbers.

As for the percent of crossbow hunters, you need to keep in mind that it took 30 years to get there. Also, the archery harvest is about 25-30% of the total harvest, which means it is actually a tool that the OH DNR can count on so they don't have to add gun seasons in the middle of archery seasons.

[Munsterlndr]

We may be on to something here. Do you want to draft a letter that concerned bow hunters on this site, or MBH members can send to their representatives. The information I posted shows that Michigan sold 724,239 deer licenses last season. It also shows that we had about 300,000 bow hunters. Here is the link http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/3485_236922_7.pdf
Combine that with your link and the survey that showed 78.5% of Ohio bow hunters hunted in the archery season and I think the question of the effect of 268,527 new bow hunters becomes valid enough to at least be considered.
If you draft a letter, I would suggest posting it in the traditional forums here, in the archery forums here, and sending it to MBH as well so any one who wishes has a template to contact their representative and express their concern before the final vote.
Good luck in your efforts.
<----<<<

Please do so! If you guys go forth with such a ridiculously jumbled set of numbers in an attempt to support your argument, shooting it down in front of the senate will be like shooting fish in a barrel. :lol:

Your figures for the number of Michigan hunters is inaccurate. Every year there is a certain percentage of people who buy hunting licenses yet don't actually hunt. All of the statistical analysis such as how many hunters hunted in each season, success rates, harvest per weapon, mean days of hunting per weapon, percentage increase/decrease of hunter participation are based on the total number of people who hunt deer in Michigan, not those who buy licenses. For 2007, that number was 682,962. You can call Brian Frawley at the DNR and verify that number. Using any other number to represent the total number of deer hunters in Michigan in 2007 is just going to make you look like an idiot.

The chart that Swamp Ghost quoted clearly showed 475,000 total deer hunters in Ohio in 2006. Misrepresenting that figure by using the number of deer hunters who paid for licenses and alleging that it represents the total number of deer hunters in Ohio is just going to make you look like an Idiot.

But feel free to publish that sort of a letter. I would relish the opportunity to dispute your figures with our Senators. :lol:

[November Sunrise]

Here are the accurate numbers for OH.

http://www.dnr.ohio.gov/wildlife/dow/regulations/historical.aspx

I got 439,562 hunting lic sold for 2007. 627,827 deer tags sold. Feel free to check my numbers.

As for the percent of crossbow hunters, you need to keep in mind that it took 30 years to get there. Also, the archery harvest is about 25-30% of the total harvest, which means it is actually a tool that the OH DNR can count on so they don't have to add gun seasons in the middle of archery seasons.

Number of hunting licenses and deer permits sold still doesn't reflect the total number of deer hunters or the number of archery hunters.

34% of the total harvest last year was from archery hunters.

[ridgewalker]

I agree with everything that you said, Joe. I don't believe the new bill if passed will have a great impact on the deer herd. Unfortunately there are alway some that are greedy or want to take short cuts. In my book they are not hunters, but killers. There have been too many poachers and slob hunters around our camp but we just have to adapt. Last year for the gun season I was sitting in a pop up blind that had been custom fitted so that I could hunt with my disabilities. Another man on state land was about 150 yards away. He became so outraged that I was on our property that he did his best to destroy my blind on the third when I had to rest in the morning for an afternoon hunt. He knew I was disabled so I guess he thought I was an easy mark. There are always a few not matter what season or method they use that do their best to give hunters a bad name. If the bill passes I sure will enjoy being able to hunt during the nice weather despite what others do. I may be disabled but I will keep trying as long as I can move. Even with a rifle I have taken only close shots except for twice when I hunted cornfields and I dropped both deer. I have hunted with 2 recurves and 2 compounds and I would jump for joy if I could still hunt with my last bow. It is now in reserve for my grandson and I hope for the day that I can use a crossbow to hunt with him!:)

[Joe Archer]

Your figures for the number of Michigan hunters is inaccurate. Every year there is a certain percentage of people who buy hunting licenses yet don't actually hunt. For 2007, that number was 682,962.

The chart that Swamp Ghost quoted clearly showed 475,000 total deer hunters in Ohio in 2006. Misrepresenting that figure by using the number of deer hunters who paid for licenses and alleging that it represents the total number of deer hunters in Ohio is just going to make you look like an Idiot.


Even if you prefer to estimate potential by looking at those who hunted (682,962) instead of those who purchased licenses to do so (724,239) you STILL come up with an estimated potential of 241,620 new archers in Michigan. If added that would still nearly double the number of bow hunters from last year (300,000).
Swamp Ghost's post is a direct QUOTE from a pro-crossbow site claiming to report results from an Ohio survey. They (and I will quote again for anyone who might be an idiot to read) state specifically that "78.4% of all paid hunters hunted with archery in the Fall of 2006".
Now if you want to accuse pro crossbow sites of spreading propaganda; have at it. THAT probably would hold more water than accusing me of manipulating numbers.
<----<<<

[November Sunrise]

"78.5% of all paid hunters hunted with a crossbow".
Now if you want to accuse pro crossbow sites of spreading propaganda; have at it. THAT probably would hold more water than accusing me of manipulating numbers.
<----<<<

Firstly, the report does not say that 78.5% of all paid hunters hunted with a crossbow.

Secondly, the emphasis on 78% of a certain segment of deer hunters being archery hunters is irrelevant. I don't know what their intent was by choosing to emphasize the info in the way that they did, but at a very minimum they've created confusion with what they're emphasizing, because it then requires the reader to spend a few extra seconds reading before they notice that the archery hunter numbers are 300,000 out of 475,000, which equates to 63% participation.

As I said earlier, at some point soon I should have the definitive numbers back from my contact in Ohio, and will post them when I get them. I'm guessing that they'll be very close to the '06 numbers from this study.

[Munsterlndr]

Even if you prefer to estimate potential by looking at those who hunted (682,962) instead of those who purchased licenses to do so (724,239) you STILL come up with an estimated potential of 241,620 new archers in Michigan. If added that would still nearly double the number of bow hunters from last year (300,000).
Swamp Ghost's post is a direct QUOTE from a pro-crossbow site claiming to report results from an Ohio survey. They (and I will quote again for anyone who might be an idiot to read) state specifically that "78.5% of all paid hunters hunted with a crossbow".
Now if you want to accuse pro crossbow sites of spreading propaganda; have at it. THAT probably would hold more water than accusing me of manipulating numbers.
<----<<<
Come on Joe, I know you are not that dense. PAID hunters does not equate to total number of deer hunters and the chart quoted makes that very clear. You can't take a percentage based on a part of the total number of hunters in Ohio and then try and use it with the total number of hunters in Michigan to project the potential number of new crossbow hunters. It simply is bad math if you try and do so and any independent review of those methods will get you laughed out of the room at the committee hearings.

[Joe Archer]

Firstly, the report does not say that 78.5% of all paid hunters hunted with a crossbow.

Secondly, the emphasis on 78% of a certain segment of deer hunters being archery hunters is irrelevant. I don't know what their intent was by choosing to emphasize the info in the way that they did, but at a very minimum they've created confusion with what they're emphasizing, because it then requires the reader to spend a few extra seconds reading before they notice that the archery hunter numbers are 300,000 out of 475,000, which equates to 63% participation.

As I said earlier, at some point soon I should have the definitive numbers back from my contact in Ohio, and will post them when I get them. I'm guessing that they'll be very close to the '06 numbers from this study.
I believe the "paid hunter" comparison is relevant here because we sold over 700,000 licenses. I agree that all were not utilized and we had just under 700,000 hunters.
The question that needs to be answered to see the total picture would be what percentage of private land hunters used a cross bow? Why would you expect it to be lower than that of paid hunters? It might very well be higher and inflate the user's percentage even more.
Due to the fact that it is an unknown (at this point) excluding them from the computation, or setting them equal to the paid hunters would be sound scientific data management. In any event far superior data managment than assuming that 0% of the private land owners used a crossbow. Wouldn't you agree?
<----<<<

[butter21]

I believe the "paid hunter" comparison is relevant here because we sold over 700,000 licenses. I agree that all were not utilized and we had just under 700,000 hunters.
The question that needs to be answered to see the total picture would be what percentage of private land hunters used a cross bow? Why would you expect it to be lower than that of paid hunters? It might very well be higher and inflate the user's percentage even more.
Due to the fact that it is an unknown (at this point) excluding them from the computation, or setting them equal to the paid hunters would be sound scientific data management. In any event far superior data managment than assuming that 0% of the private land owners used a crossbow. Wouldn't you agree?
<----<<<
Sounds about right to me. You cant tell me no private land owners used crossbows. With out a way of actually figuring out what that number was. You have to either exclude them from the numbers, or figure they are about the same as the other hunters.

[Munsterlndr]

I believe the "paid hunter" comparison is relevant here because we sold over 700,000 licenses. I agree that all were not utilized and we had just under 700,000 hunters.
The question that needs to be answered to see the total picture would be what percentage of private land hunters used a cross bow? Why would you expect it to be lower than that of paid hunters? It might very well be higher and inflate the user's percentage even more.
Due to the fact that it is an unknown (at this point) excluding them from the computation, or setting them equal to the paid hunters would be sound scientific data management. In any event far superior data managment than assuming that 0% of the private land owners used a crossbow. Wouldn't you agree?
<----<<<

Joe, you just do not get it. The total hunter number includes all hunters, the ones who buy licenses in Ohio and the landowners who don't. That is the only figure that you can reasonably compare to the total number of deer hunters in Michigan. According to the chart SG linked to, that figure was 475,000. The Ohio DNr says it was approx. 500,000. Whichever you use will at least be in the ball park.

You are insisting on using 325,000 as the total number of hunters in Ohio and that is not even close to being correct. Until you correct that flaw in your equation, your results are going to be equally flawed.

[Munsterlndr]

Sounds about right to me.

Somehow that does not particularly surprise me. :lol:

[butter21]

Somehow that does not particularly surprise me. :lol:
I did get a good laugh thats for sure. ;)

[November Sunrise]

I believe the "paid hunter" comparison is relevant here because we sold over 700,000 licenses. I agree that all were not utilized and we had just under 700,000 hunters.
The question that needs to be answered to see the total picture would be what percentage of private land hunters used a cross bow? Why would you expect it to be lower than that of paid hunters? It might very well be higher and inflate the user's percentage even more.
Due to the fact that it is an unknown (at this point) excluding them from the computation, or setting them equal to the paid hunters would be sound scientific data management. In any event far superior data managment than assuming that 0% of the private land owners used a crossbow. Wouldn't you agree?
<----<<<

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and try one more time, but it seems as if this is just game playing. I know that a couple of the guys on both sides of this issue seem to enjoy playing games with analysis, but I'm not one of them.

Maybe we're not even looking at the same report? The chart I'm looking at shows the number of hunters in Ohio who had to purchase a deer permit, the number of hunters who had to purchase a senior deer permit, and the number of landowners deer hunters who are exempt from purchasing a permit, and then a column which includes ALL deer hunters.

Within each category it includes the number of longbow hunters, crossbow hunters, shotgun hunters, and muzzleloader hunters. It's right there in plain sight the number of vertical and crossbow users within every category, including landowners.

If you go to the ALL column it states that Ohio has 475,000 deer hunters, and it says that 300,000 of which hunt during archery season. What they are saying is that 63% of Ohio deer hunters hunt during archery season. The survey doesn't say how many would archery hunt if crossbows hadn't been legal there for the past 30 years, it simply reports what is.

Now, there isn't any other legitimate way to analyze the percentage of archers in OH than by taking into account ALL hunters. Any attempt to just choose one of the three isolated categories to try to make a point is simply disingenuous. I don't care that the author of the presentation chose to emphasize percentages within a sub group - maybe his emphasis on percentages within a sub group is a reflection of his lack of competence or integrity. Regardless, the author's issues are not my problem.

By comparison, the most recent MI harvest report states that we have roughly 680,000 deer hunters and 300,000 archers in MI. 44% of MI deer hunters participate in archery season.

We can all speculate until we're blue in the face regarding how many more archery hunters we'll have in MI if crossbows are legalized, but it would seem to me that at a minimum that we can all assume that the numbers will go up for at least a while until they eventually plateua. I would suspect that it would be reasonable to assume that eventually our archery participation level will fall somewhere between where we are now, 44%, and where Ohio is now, 63%. Where it would fall exactly on that spectrum is anybody's guess, and I'm comfortable with any of the numbers within that range.

Now, as I've said twice before, I'm in the process of getting the definitive information from my contact person in Ohio. Once I get it that information I'll post it on here so that it's front and center and we can all know for certain what the numbers are.

And with that, I'm not wasting any more time on summaries, comments, or thoughts regarding easily interpreted charts such as we've been discussing. You're on your own.

[TOW]

Where the rubber meets the road..

Ohio Deer Harvest


A total of 232,854 deer was harvested this year, a 2% decrease from last season (Table 1).

Hunters harvested 103,134 deer during the traditional statewide gun season, 8.1% less than last year. Weather undoubtedly influenced this year’s gun harvest. Heavy rains led to a record 51% drop in the opening day harvest. The 2-day bonus gun season in mid-December may have contributed some to the decline as well by shifting hunting pressure. Coshocton, Tuscarawas, Guernsey, Muskingum, and Knox counties led the state in total gun harvest.

Archers reported harvesting 78,639 deer this year, 15.8% more than last season (Table 1). This year’s vertical bow harvest of 36,347 deer represents a 24% increase over last season. For the 8th consecutive year vertical bow hunters have set harvest records and the annual increases have been enough to push the total archery harvest to record-status each year as well.


Sure doesn't sound like the crossbowers are negatively impacting the vetrical bowhunters does it?

[butter21]

Where the rubber meets the road..

Ohio Deer Harvest


A total of 232,854 deer was harvested this year, a 2% decrease from last season (Table 1).

Hunters harvested 103,134 deer during the traditional statewide gun season, 8.1% less than last year. Weather undoubtedly influenced this year’s gun harvest. Heavy rains led to a record 51% drop in the opening day harvest. The 2-day bonus gun season in mid-December may have contributed some to the decline as well by shifting hunting pressure. Coshocton, Tuscarawas, Guernsey, Muskingum, and Knox counties led the state in total gun harvest.

Archers reported harvesting 78,639 deer this year, 15.8% more than last season (Table 1). This year’s vertical bow harvest of 36,347 deer represents a 24% increase over last season. For the 8th consecutive year vertical bow hunters have set harvest records and the annual increases have been enough to push the total archery harvest to record-status each year as well.


Sure doesn't sound like the crossbowers are negatively impacting the vetrical bowhunters does it?
You don't know if it is or isn't, just like I don't know if it is or isn't. Someone that hunts in Ohio might not think so, and you can talk to another person that does. Maybe a crossbow hunter there thinks that vertical bow hunters are having a negative impact. :rolleyes:

[TOW]

You don't know if it is or isn't, just like I don't know if it is or isn't. Someone that hunts in Ohio might not think so, and you can talk to another person that does. Maybe a crossbow hunter there thinks that vertical bow hunters are having a negative impact. :rolleyes:

This year’s vertical bow harvest of 36,347 deer represents a 24% increase over last season. For the 8th consecutive year vertical bow hunters have set harvest records and the annual increases have been enough to push the total archery harvest to record-status each year as well.


Yeah, it's all gloom and doom killing more and more deer EVERY season.

I'm sure glad we have you around here for comedy relief.. Sure would be a dull board without you. :lol:

[butter21]

This year’s vertical bow harvest of 36,347 deer represents a 24% increase over last season. For the 8th consecutive year vertical bow hunters have set harvest records and the annual increases have been enough to push the total archery harvest to record-status each year as well.


Yeah, it's all gloom and doom killing more and more deer EVERY season.

I'm sure glad we have you around here for comedy relief.. Sure would be a dull board without you. :lol:
So just b/c vertical bows killed more deer last year then ever before, the crossbow has no negative effects in Ohio? :dizzy:

[TOW]

So just b/c vertical bows killed more deer last year then ever before, the crossbow has no negative effects in Ohio? :dizzy:


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/images/smilies/fresh/laugh.gif http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/images/smilies/fresh/laugh.gif http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/images/smilies/fresh/laugh.gif

I said - "Sure doesn't sound like the crossbowers are negatively impacting the vertical bowhunters does it?"

You guys seem to think that the crossbower has it too "easy" and will kill all the deer and the vertical boys in Ohio are POSITIVELY setting records EVERY year for the last 8 years..... Nothing NEGATIVE about that.

They just go hunting and let the other guy worry about what he is hunting with.

[awshucks]

So just b/c vertical bows killed more deer last year then ever before, the crossbow has no negative effects in Ohio? :dizzy:

Lol, If you had been born 40 years earlier, there would have been 4 Stooges instead of 3. Thanks for the entertainment, lol.:lol::lol: