HOUSE OK's "CROSSBOWS FOR EVERYONE" BILL!

[Riva]

House Bill 5741 was adopted by the House Tourism, Outdoor Recreation and Natural Resources Committee today with an overwhelming majority of the committee members in support of the bill. An H-2 version of the bill was adopted allowing crossbow use in any season and for any game in which a compound bow may be used. This version would give Michigan hunters the same rights as hunters in neighboring Ohio and Ontario. This is the first step of the process. Now we need your support as this bill comes before the full House for a vote. It is very important that you e-mail your own state representative immediately requesting his or her support for the bill "as it was approved by the committee". Stress that this version allows for full inclusion of crossbows. You can find your local state representative at: http://house.michigan.gov/find_a_rep.asp

Feel free to use the letter below after modifying it with your name and address and the name of your Representative. You may want to make other points in your e-mail, as well. Please contact them immediately!

Dear Representative ___________________________

Please consider the following ten positive criteria while considering HB 5741 H-2; a bill to allow for the full inclusion of the crossbow during Michigan’s archery season `as introduced by Representative Joel Sheltrown. These profound and long-term benefits to Michigan's citizens and the State of Michigan include:

1. Recruitment: Attracting more of young people into our outdoor hunting family

2. Retention: Keeping more of our existing hunters in the archery sports community

3. Recognition: Bringing back persons of age that years ago abandoned archery sports, yet are not disabled

4. Reciprocation: Inviting more persons from outside Michigan to participate in our archery season

5. Response: Stimulating more and/or new citizens of our State to participate in our archery season

6. Rights of the Disabled: Dismantling the arbitrary barriers that keep our disabled persons from participating as an equal

7. Recovery: Recalling the 80,000 Michigan archery hunters and, nearly 150,000 Michigan firearms hunters that have abandoned deer hunting since 1997

8. Resource: Helping in the scientific management of a the deer herd while maximizing hunter opportunity

9. Reality: Understanding that firearms are, and will always be, the #1 tool in resource management

10. Revenue: Capturing the incremental revenue that will come from license sales, sales tax, excise tax and, tourism,

I strongly encourage you to vote in favor of HB 5741 H-2, Representative Sheltrown's crossbow bill for "full inclusion".

Please say "yes" to expanded opportunity. Please say "yes" to free choice!

Thank you.

Respectfully yours,

Your Name
Street
City, Street, Zip

[sbooy42]

mmm:(

[slowpoke]

I'll do my part. I sent both of my Representatives an email.

[NonTypicalCPA]

Email sent. Cross your fingers.

[weatherby]

Ditto

Email sent. Cross your fingers.

[PsEbUcKmAsTeR17]

Sent it to my reps today.

-Psebuckmaster17-

[tjstebb]

emails sent.....does anyone think this could take effect for this year?i am not up to speed on how long things like this take....just curious

tjstebb

[dsconnell]

I have also submitted a name or two!:D

[hard luck]

E-MAILS SENT. SURE SOUNDS GOOD.:corkysm55

[travis25]

sent my e-mails

[beervo2]

emails sent.....does anyone think this could take effect for this year?i am not up to speed on how long things like this take....just curious

tjstebb


By the time it goes through the house, the senate then the Govenor , I would not look for it to take effect till 09

[Riva]

By the time it goes through the house, the senate then the Governor , I would not look for it to take effect till 09

You could be right, beervo.

Politics is a slow creature sometimes. However; it's still very important for you, and others, to voice your support of this landmark legislation to your local representative immediately. That is, for no other reason, so that we proclaim our liberating message of "inclusion" (for all).

Please send an email to your local representative right now and, let them know that you support Representative Sheltrown's crossbow bill for "full inclusion"!

Here's how to find your local rep:http://house.michigan.gov/find_a_rep.asp


Here's a letter that you can use:

Dear Representative ___________________________

Please consider the following ten positive criteria while considering HB 5741 H-2; a bill to allow for the full inclusion of the crossbow during Michigan’s archery season `as introduced by Representative Joel Sheltrown. These profound and long-term benefits to Michigan's citizens and the State of Michigan include:

1. Recruitment: Attracting more of young people into our outdoor hunting family

2. Retention: Keeping more of our existing hunters in the archery sports community

3. Recognition: Bringing back persons of age that years ago abandoned archery sports, yet are not disabled

4. Reciprocation: Inviting more persons from outside Michigan to participate in our archery season

5. Response: Stimulating more and/or new citizens of our State to participate in our archery season

6. Rights of the Disabled: Dismantling the arbitrary barriers that keep our disabled persons from participating as an equal

7. Recovery: Recalling the 80,000 Michigan archery hunters and, nearly 150,000 Michigan firearms hunters that have abandoned deer hunting since 1997

8. Resource: Helping in the scientific management of a the deer herd while maximizing hunter opportunity

9. Reality: Understanding that firearms are, and will always be, the #1 tool in resource management

10. Revenue: Capturing the incremental revenue that will come from license sales, sales tax, excise tax and, tourism,

I strongly encourage you to vote in favor of HB 5741 H-2, Representative Sheltrown's crossbow bill for "full inclusion".

Please say "yes" to expanded opportunity. Please say "yes" to free choice!

Thank you.

Respectfully yours,

Your Name
Street
City, Street, Zip

[sbooy42]

By the time it goes through the house, the senate then the Govenor , I would not look for it to take effect till 09
so the 08 archery season will most likely be the last bowhunting season in MI:(
so sad..
but atleast all of MI's problems will be solved in 09:dizzy:
:lol:

[NoWake]

Riva,

Thank you for offering a form letter for people to use. However, I encourage everyone who sends some form of letter to change it into their own words. Especially if your sending an email.

I have heard a congressman talk about receiving form letters and he stated they are next to worthless to him. His reasoning was, there is often a huge amount of spamming that goes on and when a bunch of letters all saying the same thing they become suspect. Some groups have even hired or taken volunteers to hand sign written form letters with names and addresses pulled out of a phone book. He said it was getting too hard to tell if they were coming from a real person.

[Riva]

Riva,

Thank you for offering a form letter for people to use. However, I encourage everyone who sends some form of letter to change it into their own words. Especially if your sending an email.

I have heard a congressman talk about receiving form letters and he stated they are next to worthless to him. His reasoning was, there is often a huge amount of spamming that goes on and when a bunch of letters all saying the same thing they become suspect. Some groups have even hired or taken volunteers to hand sign written form letters with names and addresses pulled out of a phone book. He said it was getting too hard to tell if they were coming from a real person.

No Wake,

Thanks for the input. Agree that form letters can be less impactful than unique messaging. No matter what method is used, your own words or a form letter, the important thing is to write your representitive.

Thanks,

Riva

[dx3]

What A joke. Just another reason to leave this sorry state.

[dx3]

I think you might get to hunt at night with a spot light also. They should just come in the box with the arrow nocked. Because we all know how difficult it is to pull a trigger. Just think no practice, no fine tuning & no swatting bugs in august shooting 3d. What a fine hunting state this has become. Everyone will get to harvest that 100lb spike of a lifetime.

[michigandeerslayer]

I think you might get to hunt at night with a spot light also. They should just come in the box with the arrow nocked. Because we all know how difficult it is to pull a trigger. Just think no practice, no fine tuning & no swatting bugs in august shooting 3d. What a fine hunting state this has become. Everyone will get to harvest that 100lb spike of a lifetime.how do you figure the crossbow shooters are not going to practice? I know I will, practice makes perfect, and spikes taste funny I would rather wait for a 10 pointer or a fat doe, but that is just me:coolgleam

[bigcountrysg]

I think you might get to hunt at night with a spot light also. They should just come in the box with the arrow nocked. Because we all know how difficult it is to pull a trigger. Just think no practice, no fine tuning & no swatting bugs in august shooting 3d. What a fine hunting state this has become. Everyone will get to harvest that 100lb spike of a lifetime.


Talk about being negative. So you don't like crossbows. But I think this is a great thing. Especailly for those that miss hunting archery season due to an injury that does not allow them to pull a bow back. Yeah go ahead and scream disability permit. But to get that you need your doctor on your side. This allows people that have doctors that will not give that permission slip the ability to hunt during archery season again.

I am still young and able to hunt with my bow. So I will do so, but a day will come when I can not hunt with my bow. It will be nice to have the option to use a crossbow to hunt with.

[Slice]

Wow such negativity. The crossbow is a choice of weapon. The same argument went on with inline muzzleloaders in southern Michigans shotgun only zones. They said a muzzleloader was no different then a rifle (put a scope on it and take a deer at 200 yards). Lighten up and let those who choose to hunt that way do it. Remember they are going to have to lug this 30 pound piece equipment through the woods and up into their stands and try and hold steady while shooting.

[michigandeerslayer]

I vote Bigcountry for Governor :lol::dizzy:

[Great White Hunter]

How could anyone support this bill? It's bad enough going on state land during firearm season. Can't wait to have some lazy hunter shoot at sound and hace a arrow fly past me or in me on Oct 1st. HMMM let's see we have youth shooting guns in Sept. an early doe with guns in Oct and now loaded arrow flingers all season. That's not going to bother the deer at all. I'm going to start a e-mail campaign to see if we can shoot from our trucks with the dogs chasing them. Then I'm going to get a great dane to go get my fawn for me that way my lazy butt can stay in my car and drink beer. Don't worry I would have a DD.:rant:

[bigcountrysg]

I vote Bigcountry for Governor :lol::dizzy:


Nah I don't want that job. :lol: At least not after this Governor is done destroying our economy.


I think this might actually boost our economy a bit. Might get more out of state hunters. From states that allow crossbow hunting. If that is the case then the hotels, camp grounds, cabin rentals will come back to life. Which will provide the owners with more money. That extra money brings more money revolving around our dying economy. Then you have more fuel taxes provided which means more money for our poor roads, Sales tax on everything these people buy, means more money to the state to help fund it. Over all I think after a couple years of this our state will start seeing a change.


Now if your worried about deer quality in Michigan dropping because of this. Well that is easy more hunters means lower quotas for the antlerless tags. Make the change to one buck only. Meaning if you buy a combo tag you get an antlerless tag and a buck tag. Not this big buck, small buck we have now.

[dx3]

I forgot about how nice it feels bowhunting public land in oct & the fear & nervousness hunting in nov. Now I get to whistle & sing all the way to my archery stand too.

[marty]

I think you might get to hunt at night with a spot light also. They should just come in the box with the arrow nocked. Because we all know how difficult it is to pull a trigger. Just think no practice, no fine tuning & no swatting bugs in august shooting 3d. What a fine hunting state this has become. Everyone will get to harvest that 100lb spike of a lifetime.

not even close on this one:lol:

hunt at night with a spot light??:confused: what does that have to do with crossbows??:confused:

Crossbows do not come pre nocked with the arrow:lol:

you still have to practice with your crossbow just like any weapon you plan to hunt with. Even fine tune them and sometimes it not all that easy.:yikes:

heck with them 100lb spike horns:evil:

Crossbows are only set up to shoot all the big bucks before the other archers get to them. :yikes:Didn't you know that:evil:

[dx3]

I do kinda miss salmon & walleye fishing in the fall, might as well enjoy that before a HB5500 passes & allows snagging.

[bigcountrysg]

I do kinda miss salmon & walleye fishing in the fall, might as well enjoy that before a HB5500 passes & allows snagging.


Why you so negative. If you don't like this then you can move.

[Great White Hunter]

not even close on this one:lol:

hunt at night with a spot light??:confused: what does that have to do with crossbows??:confused:

Crossbows do not come pre nocked with the arrow:lol:

you still have to practice with your crossbow just like any weapon you plan to hunt with. Even fine tune them and sometimes it not all that easy.:yikes:

heck with them 100lb spike horns:evil:

Crossbows are only set up to shoot all the big bucks before the other archers get to them. :yikes:Didn't you know that:evil:

I just watched a video of a girl shooting her first deer the first time she went out and she said "I just got my crossbow last week".

Hmmm must be hard to shoot one if it took a whole week to get good.

[bigcountrysg]

I just watched a video of a girl shooting her first deer the first time she went out and she said "I just got my crossbow last week".

Hmmm must be hard to shoot one if it took a whole week to get good.


Did it tell you how much she shot in that week. How many hours were spent at the range sighting in and getting comfortable shooting it.

[TheNatural]

no her dad probably did that for her too.

[Great White Hunter]

I don't care how long she took shooting it a week practice would not be enough if it had anything to do with skill. Crossbow =no skill.

[Firefighter]

I don't care how long she took shooting it a week practice would not be enough if it had anything to do with skill. Crossbow =no skill.


Your a hypocrite if you ever hunt with a gun again:rolleyes:

You've stated you opinion, now let it be.

[bigcountrysg]

I don't care how long she took shooting it a week practice would not be enough if it had anything to do with skill. Crossbow =no skill.

So how do you feel about using a firearm like a shotgun or rifle or muzzleloader. A firearm and crossbow are shot in similar fashion. So they must not take any skill either. But yet they have been legal to hunt with for years.

[dsconnell]

I don't care how long she took shooting it a week practice would not be enough if it had anything to do with skill. Crossbow =no skill.

You ever killed anything other than that coyote with a gun that I am sure it took some skill to accurately place that bullet where it needed to be to put an ethical kill on that coyote..

I dont understand what makes anyone that does not want this bill passed think that you a better hunter than those of us that want to get this bill passed?

[dsconnell]

Glads to see I am not the only one that feels that way!

I try not to get too involved with this but when something like that is thrown out there that is complete nonsense it just blows my mind..

[TheNatural]

not even close on this one:lol:

hunt at night with a spot light??:confused: what does that have to do with crossbows??:confused:

Crossbows do not come pre nocked with the arrow:lol:

you still have to practice with your crossbow just like any weapon you plan to hunt with. Even fine tune them and sometimes it not all that easy.:yikes:

heck with them 100lb spike horns:evil:

Crossbows are only set up to shoot all the big bucks before the other archers get to them. :yikes:Didn't you know that:evil:
1. thats how rediculous the dnr our setting our guidelines.
2. no but they will be set up for anyone to lazy to learn how to hunt and use a bow.
3. get the youth more involved, give me a break we already made their cake and spoon fed it to them, i always thaught there were 12 grades to pass before i graduated, now they hold a gun and can shoot, not hunt shoot but hell givem a license in sept. and shoot any deer they want and we'll make the ones less fortunate and been hunting for 20+ yrs. take care of the does, no wander we got a doe problem. but thats just another one of our dnr's good solutions.
4. might as well open the whole state back up to rifle and just have all seasons concurrent.

[TheNatural]

So how do you feel about using a firearm like a shotgun or rifle or muzzleloader. A firearm and crossbow are shot in similar fashion. So they must not take any skill either. But yet they have been legal to hunt with for years.
so you compare the crossbow to the gun, but but i thaught you said they were the same as bows. yeah pretty much i do feel the same about gun season thats why these two make a perfect match in season.

[dsconnell]

What A joke. Just another reason to leave this sorry state.

Need help packing? Ask Great White you guys have plenty in common!:evil:

Go ahead and add "The Natural" to that list too who coincidentally joined the same month as Great White and coincidentally is also from Grand Rapids and Coincidentally has darn near the same amount of posts..

Good news for them is if they arent the same person they can car pool to save some money in gas!

[Great White Hunter]

So how do you feel about using a firearm like a shotgun or rifle or muzzleloader. A firearm and crossbow are shot in similar fashion. So they must not take any skill either. But yet they have been legal to hunt with for years.

And I don't want a firearm in bow season. And you said it "a firearm and crossbow are shot in similar fashion" so no I don't want a cross bow in bow season.

And about me shooting a gun again. You can not compair shooting a rifle at 200+ yards to a crossbow at 40yrds. 40yrds with a bow takes skill, that is why there is a separate season for bow and rifle. If you have it your way then why have a separate season for anything? A crossbow in archery season would be just like ok'ing firearms in Oct. It is nothing to shoot a deer at 40yrds with a crossbow and a scope. It takes skill to do that with a bow.

Plus for me I would be ok with not picking up a gun for whitetail again. I love to bowhunt. I use a gun on other game and I can say that it is not even close to being the same as using a bow. I never practice with my gun, but can shoot game more times then not. Give me a crossbow out of the box and I would hit the sweet spot on a deer no problem. Crossbows have their place but that's for people with disablities. Leave archery season for archers.

[TheNatural]

Need help packing? Ask Great White you guys have plenty in common!:evil:
wait i thaught you wanted more good ol hunters,
cant wait to here the sound of those loud a&& arrow guns to be going off spooking every deer around, you thaught mi had pressured deer b4:lol::lol::lol::help:

[bigcountrysg]

so you compare the crossbow to the gun, but but i thaught you said they were the same as bows. yeah pretty much i do feel the same about gun season thats why these two make a perfect match in season.

When did I say that crossbows were the same as bows.

[Great White Hunter]

So how do you feel about using a firearm like a shotgun or rifle or muzzleloader. A firearm and crossbow are shot in similar fashion. So they must not take any skill either. But yet they have been legal to hunt with for years.

Here! "A firearm and crossbow are shot in a similar fashion" amd the rest of you statment you are compairing them to each other.

[bigcountrysg]

And I don't want a firearm in bow season. And you said it "a firearm and crossbow are shot in similar fashion" so no I don't want a cross bow in bow season.

And about me shooting a gun again. You can not compair shooting a rifle at 200+ yards to a crossbow at 40yrds. 40yrds with a bow takes skill, that is why there is a separate season for bow and rifle. If you have it your way then why have a separate season for anything? A crossbow in archery season would be just like ok'ing firearms in Oct. It is nothing to shoot a deer at 40yrds with a crossbow and a scope. It takes skill to do that with a bow.

Plus for me I would be ok with not picking up a gun for whitetail again. I love to bowhunt. I use a gun on other game and I can say that it is not even close to being the same as using a bow. I never practice with my gun, but can shoot game more times then not. Give me a crossbow out of the box and I would hit the sweet spot on a deer no problem. Crossbows have their place but that's for people with disablities. Leave archery season for archers.


Well during gun season when I use shotgun the longest range I shoot is about 30 yards maybe. Why because I am sitting along a tree line over looking a wide open field. I am sitting in the woods where I my shots are 30 yards or closer. So are you gonna say that I am unskilled now. because during bow season i refuse to shoot at anything over 30 yards away.

I like to see how close I can get the deer to me. I do not use Scent Lok, or anything similar to that. So my scent is running openly.

When I shot the deer in my avatar which is a 9 point buck. It was less then 5 yards from me.

[bigcountrysg]

Here! "A firearm and crossbow are shot in a similar fashion" amd the rest of you statment you are compairing them to each other.


I compared a firearm and crossbow. I never said that a bow and crossbow are the same. Although they are in the same category of Archery.

[TheNatural]

Well during gun season when I use shotgun the longest range I shoot is about 30 yards maybe. Why because I am sitting along a tree line over looking a wide open field. I am sitting in the woods where I my shots are 30 yards or closer. So are you gonna say that I am unskilled now. because during bow season i refuse to shoot at anything over 30 yards away.

I like to see how close I can get the deer to me. I do not use Scent Lok, or anything similar to that. So my scent is running openly.

When I shot the deer in my avatar which is a 9 point buck. It was less then 5 yards from me.
congrats on the buck and i know the feeling was awesome, what is going to happen now is during archery season with x bows, that deer is dead at 55 yds or hurt and lost
not measuring your skill or saying you cant hunt were talking about the downfalls and similarities to the gun of the xbow

[TheNatural]

I compared a firearm and crossbow. I never said that a bow and crossbow are the same. Although they are in the same category of Archery.
does the arrow make them in the same categorie?

[Great White Hunter]

You 9 point buck looks to be a 1 1/2 old. Wanna know why... Because it is bad enough having hunters shooting everything that moves in firearms, now we can add crossbows to that.

I'm not saying that if you don't take a buck at 40yrds then your no good. I'm saying it's a hard shot and takes a lot of practice at any distance. But when you use a crossbow that's out the window. You'll have guys shooting arrows a deer out of range to the bowhunter during their season.

You wan't open crossbow then take a week in Dec. Not all season. How would you like it if they opened firearm all season long. You would not like it at all. Why? Because guys would be shooting your deer before you even seen it.

[dsconnell]

congrats on the buck and i know the feeling was awesome, what is going to happen now is during archery season with x bowsthat deer is dead at 55 yds or hurt and lost
not measuring your skill or saying you cant hunt were talking about the downfalls and similarities to the gun of the xbow


55 yards.. Who in the He!! in their right mind would shoot that far with a crossbow?

Do you know anything about crossbows? Do you know that after 30 yards a crossbow loses more energy and speed and drops much faster than even the average compound bow today? That is quite possibly one of the most ignorant things I have heard besides getting shot in the morning on the way into your stand by a crossbow hunter..

If some frickin idiot would shoot you in the dark just from the sounds you make then that same idiot would shoot you with a compound.. Just because someone hunts with a crossbow does not mean they become careless.

[TheNatural]

know and seen guys shooting xbows that far and have already ran into some sapposedly handicapped yahoo shooting his loud a&& crossbow into the air unloading it while i was still trying to hunt. any kinda hunter can shoot another hunter happens more during gun season with leaves down and crops down now put all those back and add a gun. rut roe!

[Great White Hunter]

40 yards is very realistic, and I have seen signs at ranges saying "keep crossbow shoots to a max of 50" indicating that they have had people shooting farther. We have had a guy on the property we hunt shoot a buck at 50 (according to him, a fellow crossbow shooter) and blast through a shoulder out the other side. So it is not so crazy to think that people would try a shoot at 50.

[dsconnell]

You 9 point buck looks to be a 1 1/2 old. Wanna know why... .

#1 - How many bucks have you ever killed over 1 1/2 yrs old?

#2 - How could you possibly put an age to that deer in his avatar that you can barely see? You know nothing about the genetics in the area he shot it.. You cant see any of the facial features of that deer.. You cant see enough of the body to tell... There is no way you can make an assumption like that with ANY credibility..

I consider myself to be pretty good at aging a deer on the hoof and scoring a deer on the hoof as we have a 120" minimum or 3 yr old deer minimum on our property unless it is a management deer and there is no way I could tell you this is a 1 1/2 yr old..

[dsconnell]

40 yards is very realistic, and I have seen signs at ranges saying "keep crossbow shoots to a max of 50" indicating that they have had people shooting farther. We have had a guy on the property we hunt shoot a buck at 50 (according to him, a fellow crossbow shooter) and blast through a shoulder out the other side. So it is not so crazy to think that people would try a shoot at 50.

I could do the same thing at 50 with my compound if I really wanted to..

[TheNatural]

I could do the same thing at 50 with my compound if I really wanted to..
the key is if you wanted to and that it would take a little extra work.
its kinda like hunting fairchase and fences.

[dsconnell]

know and seen guys shooting xbows that far and have already ran into some sapposedly handicapped yahoo shooting his loud a&& crossbow into the air unloading it while i was still trying to hunt. any kinda hunter can shoot another hunter happens more during gun season with leaves down and crops down now put all those back and add a gun. rut roe!

This guy is one of those idiots that I was talking about then.. I would never shoot at a deer at 55 yards with a crossbow unless he was like 400lbs and had a large enough kill zone and at that distance I would feel more comfortable shooting my compund to be honest with you.. THat is a big Rut Roe if someone like that is in the woods...:hide::hide:

[dsconnell]

the key is if you wanted to and that it would take a little extra work.
its kinda like hunting fairchase and fences.

No.. I can do that right now. And like my last post I would feel more comfortable at that distance with my compound..

[TheNatural]

did it take any practice or did you just buy it

[GIDEON]

You 9 point buck looks to be a 1 1/2 old. Wanna know why... Because it is bad enough having hunters shooting everything that moves in firearms, now we can add crossbows to that.

I'm not saying that if you don't take a buck at 40yrds then your no good. I'm saying it's a hard shot and takes a lot of practice at any distance. But when you use a crossbow that's out the window. You'll have guys shooting arrows a deer out of range to the bowhunter during their season.

You wan't open crossbow then take a week in Dec. Not all season. How would you like it if they opened firearm all season long. You would not like it at all. Why? Because guys would be shooting your deer before you even seen it.


Wow dude, take a chill pill, ever hear of live and let live

[dsconnell]

It would take everybit as much practice with a crossbow as it would a compound and it would be easier with a compound because if you have ever tried to shoot a compound free handed it is not that easy especially out past 30 yards.

[TheNatural]

started with fingers and instinctive, cant be to hard to lay the xbow across something to hold still and look through the scope and pull the trigger.

[bigcountrysg]

You know the old saying history repeats itself. First came bows, then crossbows, then compound bows, now crossbows are coming back.

Bows and Crossbows have been historically placed in the same catergory of Archery.

I am still confused why do have a shotgun zone. With muzzle loaders capable of shooting 200 yards, shotguns shooting slugs 100 yards. But that is a different discussion.

Before you could not hunt from a tree stand. Then you could hunt from a treestand during archery season. Then you could hunt from a treestand in gun season, then you could hunt with a crossbow during gun season, now you can hunt with a crossbow in any season. It is just another tool that can be used to hunt with.

A crossbow is not anymore accurate then a compound bow. A crossbow will not kill a deer at 50+ yards, just like a compound bow will not kill a deer at 50+ yards.

I don't even own a crossbow, I am not gonna run out and buy one. Well I might but I highly doubt I would hunt with it. I love my compound bow. Heck during gun season when weather allows I use my compound over my shotgun.

I do not own any high powered rifle either. I see no need for one. There is nothing in this state I can not kill with my compound bow or my shotgun or the little .22lr I have.

I am not an advocate for crossbows. But I look at this as another win for hunters. As well as Americans because this is one less thing they are controlling ( at least for now). This is America last I checked which means I should be living freely, being able to choose what I want to hunt with. Even if that means I choose a crossbow to hunt with.

[bigcountrysg]

#1 - How many bucks have you ever killed over 1 1/2 yrs old?

#2 - How could you possibly put an age to that deer in his avatar that you can barely see? You know nothing about the genetics in the area he shot it.. You cant see any of the facial features of that deer.. You cant see enough of the body to tell... There is no way you can make an assumption like that with ANY credibility..

I consider myself to be pretty good at aging a deer on the hoof and scoring a deer on the hoof as we have a 120" minimum or 3 yr old deer minimum on our property unless it is a management deer and there is no way I could tell you this is a 1 1/2 yr old..


Here you go now age it.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p317/bigcountrysg/mebuck069point.jpg

by the way it was aged at 3.5years

It really doesn't matter, he tasted great. I do not see an influx of hunters in the bow season just because of this change. We did not see a big influx of crossbow hunters last year in gun season did we. Crossbow sales went up but not that much. I think what you will see is older people that could not hunt any more in archery season out there with a crossbow.

[TheNatural]

Here you go now age it.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p317/bigcountrysg/mebuck069point.jpg

by the way it was aged at 3.5years

It really doesn't matter, he tasted great. I do not see an influx of hunters in the bow season just because of this change. We did not see a big influx of crossbow hunters last year in gun season did we. Crossbow sales went up but not that much. I think what you will see is older people that could not hunt any more in archery season out there with a crossbow.
nice tine length, no why would you see the sale in crossbows go up during gun season, wait unless there where an extremely alarming rate of felons hunting.:coolgleam

[jlock]

I think there could be some positives ( more hunters, boost local economies , etc. ) but I have this feeling Old Papa Bear is turning in his grave right now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:sad::sad:

[bigcountrysg]

nice tine length, no why would you see the sale in crossbows go up during gun season, wait unless there where an extremely alarming rate of felons hunting.:coolgleam

We didn't see an influx of sales on crossbows last year because, Michiganders are conservitives. We do not like change several members on here prove this to be correct. We know our methods we currently use work and work well. There for we will not change.


If we are gonna debate this all night I am gonna have to grab more beer.:lol:

[bigcountrysg]

http://www.horizontalbowhunter.com/news/news.asp?ID=114

Fact and Myth on crossbows.

[2PawsRiver]

From the official magazine of the American Crossbow Federation............no slant there:lol::lol:

[TheNatural]

I think there could be some positives ( more hunters, boost local economies , etc. ) but I have this feeling Old Papa Bear is turning in his grave right now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:sad::sad:
do we need more hunters, hunting is not and shouldnt be for anyone who thinks its as easy as using a cross bow.
going to bed. drink one for me.........................

[TheNatural]

We didn't see an influx of sales on crossbows last year because, Michiganders are conservitives. We do not like change several members on here prove this to be correct. We know our methods we currently use work and work well. There for we will not change.


If we are gonna debate this all night I am gonna have to grab more beer.:lol:
so why change it and everything about the deer behavior withit night

[bigcountrysg]

From the official magazine of the American Crossbow Federation............no slant there:lol::lol:


I didn't even notice that until you pointed it out. Awe heck give me another beer.

[Liv4Huntin']

I never practice with my gun

Is this a statement you are PROUD OF??????
~ m ~

[Thunderhead]

This is better than watching the 3 Stooges. :)

bigcountry................Quote :A crossbow will not kill a deer at 50+ yards, just like a compound bow will not kill a deer at 50+ yards. : Quote.

What are you smok'in ?
Some of the stuff you come up with ...............:rolleyes:


Originally Posted by Great White Hunter

" I never practice with my gun "

Wow. Talk about a contradiction in terms. The arrogance coupled with total lack of respect for the animal is staggering..

BTW, if the deer in that pic is 3 1/2 years old, I'm Britney Spears.

I'd say it's time to close this one. Or, move it to the comedy section.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

do we need more hunters, hunting is not and shouldnt be for anyone who thinks its as easy as using a cross bow.
going to bed. drink one for me.........................

thats exactly why we lose 80,000 archery hunters in the past 10 years. they to thought deer hunting was way easy with all these whiz bang gadgets on super duper fast and silent compound bows. sure...they worked great when shooting at paper...but those deer aren't paper. a lot of those would be hunters found out after spending some big bucks on all that stuff before they even spent 1 nanosecond learning about hunting whitetail deer. actually that is a very said point of interest. i would much rather gain 1 person who nows how to hunt deer than 100 who can buy a weapon any weapon.

[NEMichsportsman]

For the most part I have tried to stay out of these "great debates" in regards to crossbows.

In general I support expanded hunting opportunities.

In general I have thought that the membership here is a step up from the majority of Michigan hunters.

After being able to read alot of recent threads....I am disappointed at many of the responses. It appears that ethics and good judgement are tossed out the window in many instances, and over estimation of personal abilities and that of various weapons abound.

The crossbow forum has certainly lived up to my expectatations.

Thats all good....... luck in the woods.

Thankfully I encounter very few hunters during any of the whitetail seasons.

[Swamp Ghost]

This is better than watching the 3 Stooges. :)

bigcountry................Quote :A crossbow will not kill a deer at 50+ yards, just like a compound bow will not kill a deer at 50+ yards. : Quote.

What are you smok'in ?
Some of the stuff you come up with ...............:rolleyes:


Originally Posted by Great White Hunter

" I never practice with my gun "

Wow. Talk about a contradiction in terms. The arrogance coupled with total lack of respect for the animal is staggering..

BTW, if the deer in that pic is 3 1/2 years old, I'm Britney Spears.

I'd say it's time to close this one. Or, move it to the comedy section.

LOL!

[TOW]

I just watched a video of a girl shooting her first deer the first time she went out and she said "I just got my crossbow last week".

Hmmm must be hard to shoot one if it took a whole week to get good.

I don't care how long she took shooting it a week practice would not be enough if it had anything to do with skill. Crossbow =no skill.

How about a half hour with a compound?

From ArcheryTalk...

first deer on first hunt

my cousin (seth) came home with me after school yesterday.he said he wanted to go hunt with me..he had never been bow hunting or shot a bow until about 3:30 yeasterday afternoon.he shot my bow(pse typhoon) for about 30 min.s and could group hit arrows in about a 4inch group at 20 yards so i told him if a spike came out he could shoot at it.well i have my ameristep blind in the edge of a 60 acre wheat field.every time i have been in that blind i see 15+ deer and 10+ within shooting distance.so we loaded up about 4 o clock and took the video camera and tripod and a extra seat(a five gallon bucket)for seth.we got to the blind about 5 and set up the camera and got everything ready.then 3 does came out and ate rite in front of us(i put corn out before we got in the blind at about 15 yards)then 3 more showed up.well they ate for at least 20mins and then started lookin in the brush like something was fixin to come out.then they just meander off down the tree line.i look up and at about 25 yrds a spike is just walkin rite to us. i gave seth the bow as soon as he got the camera and tripod set out of the way. the spike walks rite to us and stands broad side at about 12yrds. seth draws the bow aims and whack he hits the spike it takes off like a striped ass ape and runs about 15yrds stops takes two staggerin steps sideways and falls over DEAD and never gave a twich.well after about five mins he said our 30mins has to be up and then i explained the process of bleeding a deer out no matter how close he falls.(and i wanted to see the bigger buck that i had been trying to kill for about a week)well he shot the spike at about 6 20 less than 2 hours had he spend bow hunting and since it didnt get dark until about 7:15 or so we stayed in the stand about 30 mins after the spike the big buck comes into the field and passes at about 40 yards just a few yards out of range.we he runs does all over the field and then goes to the far side so we crawl out of the tent and film the find of the deer.he shot it with a 100 grain 3 blade muzzy BH and a 5575 gold-tip arrow and about 60# he didnt get a pass through but he hit the deer rite in the white spot under the left leg the arrow came out about half way down his ribs and stuck out about 4 inchs or so when the deer had turn to run he broke my arrow smooth off and almost in half when we got the deer home and guted it i took the heart out and he had cut the bottom of the heart with 2 of the 3 blades opening up both of the bigger chambers of the heart..it was one heck of a shot......one of the best shots i have ever seen(and im not tryin to start the whole double lung VS heart shot debate)it was a good shot and even better recovery.we could see the spot where he had laid down in the weeds about 20 yrds for the blind. it was the greatest hunt i have ever taken anyone on and by far the quickest time from the first time to ever shoot a bow to the time you kill your first buck
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120896&highlight=first+and+deer (http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120896&highlight=first+and+deer)

[TOW]

does the arrow make them in the same categorie?


An arrow being propelld by a fast moving string that was powered by a bent set of bow limbs qualifies....

[bigcountrysg]

I am not smoking nothing. But who in there right mind would shoot a deer at 50+ yards from them using some type of archery device. The possibility of injuring the deer rather then killing the deer is far greater. Can I shoot consistently at 50 yards, yes I can but why shoot that far when I can get them to come in to 10 yards.

If you don't think that deer is 3-3.5 years old then thats fine. Doesn't bother me because he still tasted good and is still hanging on my wall.

This is better than watching the 3 Stooges. :)

bigcountry................Quote :A crossbow will not kill a deer at 50+ yards, just like a compound bow will not kill a deer at 50+ yards. : Quote.

What are you smok'in ?
Some of the stuff you come up with ...............:rolleyes:


Originally Posted by Great White Hunter

" I never practice with my gun "

Wow. Talk about a contradiction in terms. The arrogance coupled with total lack of respect for the animal is staggering..

BTW, if the deer in that pic is 3 1/2 years old, I'm Britney Spears.

I'd say it's time to close this one. Or, move it to the comedy section.

[wolverines]

so you compare the crossbow to the gun, but but i thaught you said they were the same as bows. yeah pretty much i do feel the same about gun season thats why these two make a perfect match in season.



Nicely played:lol:

[Thunderhead]

Big, there are your words : Quote :A crossbow will not kill a deer at 50+ yards, just like a compound bow will not kill a deer at 50+ yards. : Quote.

That's crap.
I never said anything about it being ethical to attempt that shot, and it's not, but, a bow is damn well capable of killing out to 100 yds.+ .

If you had the slightest idea of what you are talking about, you'd know that.

You know the old saying history repeats itself. First came bows, then crossbows, then compound bows


BTW, the Atlatl predates the bow and I have one of those hanging on my wall.

[BigBirdVA]

Big, there are your words : Quote :A crossbow will not kill a deer at 50+ yards, just like a compound bow will not kill a deer at 50+ yards. : Quote.

That's crap.
I never said anything about it being ethical to attempt that shot, and it's not, but, a bow is damn well capable of killing out to 100 yds.+ .

If you had the shightest idea of what you are talking about, you'd know that.



BTW, the Atlatl predates the bow and I have one of those hanging on my wall.Capable and actually pulling it off are 2 different things. Guys have boasted on other archery sites of nailing a deer at 80+ yds with a compound. Sure it can be done but no ethical hunter or experienced hunter would take long shots on deer. Xbows are loud - period. Even the quietest one is louder than most compounds. 35 - 40 is tops on a deer because of string jump. After 50 it drops like a rock anyway. Too much can happen before the fastest arrow that's out there today hit's the mark. String jump limits an xbows range. It's much more of a limiting factor on one than a compound.

[TJD]

String jump limits an xbows range. It's much more of a limiting factor on one than a compound.

String jump would relate to the speed of the bolt, correct?

Maybe crossbow bolts lose more speed over long distances, but just a quick look at the crossbows on Cabelas website and the first three that I clicked on had advertised speeds of 345, 350, and 375fps. That is pretty fast! I'm sure a hunting setup might not achieve those speeds, but that is a higher advertised fps than almost any compounds that I am aware of. My compound bow is currently shooting 260fps.

[kozlov1]

Making crossbows legal would be awesome. I have a bad shoulder and my buddy suffers from his bones fusing. He tried to get approved for cross bow they turned him down... totally unbelievable... and a bad thing is we put in our 20plus years using bows already so we know how awesome it is to hunt deer during that time of year. But what the heck is the sense sitting up in a tree knowing you can't pull the bow.

Kozlov1

[BigBirdVA]

String jump would relate to the speed of the bolt, correct?

Maybe crossbow bolts lose more speed over long distances, but just a quick look at the crossbows on Cabelas website and the first three that I clicked on had advertised speeds of 345, 350, and 375fps. That is pretty fast! I'm sure a hunting setup might not achieve those speeds, but that is a higher advertised fps than almost any compounds that I am aware of. My compound bow is currently shooting 260fps.I'm shooting one at 350 fps. Pretty fast. But it's still not fast enough to eliminate string jump at more than 40 yds. I shot a video this spring of a turkey being shot. The bird moves a little before the arrow hits and he was at 30 yds. I've shot about a dozen xbow deer and 30 yds was the longest. Most were under 20 with the closest from a ground blind being 1-2 yard. I've had deer go by with the xbow on a rest and I still couldn't get the shot. This idea that an xbow is as easy as pie isn't accurate. It sounds like it would be like that and the anti bunch spouts it but in the woods up a tree or on the ground it doesn't happen like that. Lets add missed shots too. Yes xbows hunters miss too. :bloos: The misconception that you can use a rest isn't accurate either. Sure some times you could but we all know deer don't arrive or move as planned. Try a behind the tree shot on an xbow where you have to hold it for a few minutes and tell me it was an easy shot. You also have a bidder no shoot area due to the limbs hitting the tree. They weigh enough you have to hang them while waiting and the movement to get into a shooting position will get you busted too. What's said on the forums and what goes down in the woods are 2 different things.


I've shot a ton at different yardages and an xbow bolt drops like a rock past 45 or so. I can do zero to 25 1 pin but 30 you have to know and past that you have to know the range and allow for drop. It has advantages and it has disadvantages as well. When the season is up it's the same. I'm not doing any better than I did with my compound. At first I thought I would but it just doesn't happen. I'm going into year 4 and I'm just getting to know really well what I can do with it and what I can't.

[Thunderhead]

Capable and actually pulling it off are 2 different things. Guys have boasted on other archery sites of nailing a deer at 80+ yds with a compound. Sure it can be done but no ethical hunter or experienced hunter would take long shots on deer. Xbows are loud - period. Even the quietest one is louder than most compounds. 35 - 40 is tops on a deer because of string jump. After 50 it drops like a rock anyway. Too much can happen before the fastest arrow that's out there today hit's the mark. String jump limits an xbows range. It's much more of a limiting factor on one than a compound.

Nobody is talking about pulling anything off. The man stated that both pieces of equipment are NOT capable of killing at 50 yards.

I told him he was wrong. An arrow can travel 100 yards easily and if it hits , it can kill. If BC knew his history like he claims he does, he'd know that archers in ancient armys killed at 100 yards and beyond consistantly.

I've been bow hunting for 33 years, so your preaching to the choir here. ;)

[TJD]

I'm shooting one at 350 fps. Pretty fast. But it's still not fast enough to eliminate string jump at more than 40 yds. I shot a video this spring of a turkey being shot. The bird moves a little before the arrow hits and he was at 30 yds. I've shot about a dozen xbow deer and 30 yds was the longest. Most were under 20 with the closest from a ground blind being 1-2 yard.

So basically, under 40 yards, where the vast majority of archery deer shots are taken anyways, the crossbow and it's superior bolt speed may actually have an advantage on "string jump" in archery hunting situations.

[Thunderhead]

In order for a deer to jump the string at 20 yards, the arrow must be travelling at 780 fps.( or maybe it was 720 ??)

No bow can attain those speeds................yet.

[Buddwiser]

To all you compound bow users......why don't you give up your high
poundage,80% if not more let-off, sight pin with a peep-site in the string, enabling you to hit a deer at 50 yards, but don't let a cross bow do that, trigger released super fast string, no-scent clothes, tree stands, grunt calls and whatever else makes you such a great "bowhunter" and go back to the way it was done for hundreds of years.
Make your bow out of some tree limb, use sinue for string, a hand made arrowhead stuck on a hand made arrow. No sights, no releases, no let-off,
none of the stuff that makes your hunting so much easier but damn, don't let cross bows into the picture cause look how easy it is to use one. You want to be bow hunters, then be bow hunters not suragate rifle hunters which is what most of you are comparing cross bow hunters too but aren't looking at yourself in the mirror. You guys crack me up. In reality, you are nothing but hypocrites. And yes, I have a compound. You use equipment that you are condeming except your bow is vertical, not horizontal. You don't have any valid reasons for your objections to a cross bow, you just don't like them even though I'd wager most of you, have never shot one. Its your way or the highway. As for another good reason to leave Mighigan....
Don't let the screen door hit you in the a** on the way out.

[bigcountrysg]

Nobody is talking about pulling anything off. The man stated that both pieces of equipment are NOT capable of killing at 50 yards.

I told him he was wrong. An arrow can travel 100 yards easily and if it hits , it can kill. If BC knew his history like he claims he does, he'd know that archers in ancient armys killed at 100 yards and beyond consistantly.

I've been bow hunting for 33 years, so your preaching to the choir here. ;)


Those shots archers shot to kill at 100yds are not straight on shot. They would shoot the bow up in the air and the arch of the arrow allowed it to travel 100 yards. They also were not aimed shots. Those archers back in those days during those battles were just basically throwing arrows accross the battle field.

[awshucks]

So basically, under 40 yards, where the vast majority of archery deer shots are taken anyways, the crossbow and it's superior bolt speed may actually have an advantage on "string jump" in archery hunting situations.

I got string jumped [they ducked under] twice last season w/ an Excal Emax tuned down to around 335 fps. Once by a spike property owner wanted thinned at 32 yds and again by a big doe the next day at 30. I was holding on the bottom of her brisket behind front leg, 2" up from bare air. I'd gotten a turkey that am from same blind, the doe was sniffing the feathers from it. 35 yds is my limit on deer, and even that doesn't always work.

[swampbuck]

I think there could be some positives ( more hunters, boost local economies , etc. ) but I have this feeling Old Papa Bear is turning in his grave right now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:sad::sad:

I think papa bear would be pleased seeing how he made his first one before most of us were even born. he would be rolling in his grave over the elitist attitude of the mbh, because that is the type of person he was. And yes I knew him, he was a friend of my father.

[TOW]

I think papa bear would be pleased seeing how he made his first one before most of us were even born. he would be rolling in his grave over the elitist attitude of the mbh, because that is the type of person he was. And yes I knew him, he was a friend of my father.

Fred was a gun hunter before he took up the bow. Much like most of us.

Although I don't think he was not at the helm of Bear Archery at the time Bear Archery did, and maybe still does, make crossbows.

Fred also advocated the use of posion pods to bowhunt with.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

Fred also advocated the use of posion pods to bowhunt with.[/QUOTE]

that was in the early 60's and it fell flat on its face

[BigBirdVA]

So basically, under 40 yards, where the vast majority of archery deer shots are taken anyways, the crossbow and it's superior bolt speed may actually have an advantage on "string jump" in archery hunting situations.
300 fps @ 30 yds = 300 milliseconds.
350 fps @ 30 yds = 257 milliseconds.

Best guess is a deer's reaction time is 1/4 second or so. At 30 yds it has 50 milliseconds (?) to react. That's not a lot of time and it's still a guess and other factors could affect the outcome too.

[TheNatural]

Making crossbows legal would be awesome. I have a bad shoulder and my buddy suffers from his bones fusing. He tried to get approved for cross bow they turned him down... totally unbelievable... and a bad thing is we put in our 20plus years using bows already so we know how awesome it is to hunt deer during that time of year. But what the heck is the sense sitting up in a tree knowing you can't pull the bow.

Kozlov1
that sucks, and maybe that is one thing that i can agree with is lowering the handicaps and disabilities.

[TheNatural]

In order for a deer to jump the string at 20 yards, the arrow must be travelling at 780 fps.( or maybe it was 720 ??)

No bow can attain those speeds................yet.
is me or did you state this wrong........................

[TheNatural]

To all you compound bow users......why don't you give up your high
poundage,80% if not more let-off, sight pin with a peep-site in the string, enabling you to hit a deer at 50 yards, but don't let a cross bow do that, trigger released super fast string, no-scent clothes, tree stands, grunt calls and whatever else makes you such a great "bowhunter" and go back to the way it was done for hundreds of years.
Make your bow out of some tree limb, use sinue for string, a hand made arrowhead stuck on a hand made arrow. No sights, no releases, no let-off,
none of the stuff that makes your hunting so much easier but damn, don't let cross bows into the picture cause look how easy it is to use one. You want to be bow hunters, then be bow hunters not suragate rifle hunters which is what most of you are comparing cross bow hunters too but aren't looking at yourself in the mirror. You guys crack me up. In reality, you are nothing but hypocrites. And yes, I have a compound. You use equipment that you are condeming except your bow is vertical, not horizontal. You don't have any valid reasons for your objections to a cross bow, you just don't like them even though I'd wager most of you, have never shot one. Its your way or the highway. As for another good reason to leave Mighigan....
Don't let the screen door hit you in the a** on the way out.
i'm against xbows but i'm all for going back thats how i startedso go rant somewhere else

[butter21]

I so hope this doesnt get past. Why do you think the reason for only allowing the use of crossbows during gun season right now is? ITS BECAUSE IT FITS THE CATEGORY BEST, if it was closer to a compound bow we would already be able to use them for bow season. I have to practice with my bow months before season with my bow. I shot my gun 5 times before gun season to make sure its still sighted in good.

[TOW]

I so hope this doesnt get past. Why do you think the reason for only allowing the use of crossbows during gun season right now is? ITS BECAUSE IT FITS THE CATEGORY BEST, if it was closer to a compound bow we would already be able to use them for bow season.

No, that is where the old Ad Hoc Crossbow committee placed them so that crossbows would never get off the ground.

Not many deer hunters would lay down their firearms to pick up a crossbow OR a compound for that matter.

[butter21]

No, that is where the old Ad Hoc Crossbow committee placed them so that crossbows would never get off the ground.
Not many deer hunters would lay down their firearms to pick up a crossbow OR a compound for that matter.

Yea we have been conspiring against crossbows all this time.


Why would they lay down their firearm for a crossbow, that statement doesn't even make sense.

[swampbuck]

Yea we have been conspiring against crossbows all this time

I would suggest that you do some research on how the disability permits came to be and by what group those rules can be modified and /or changed.

In fact judging by your posts you should do some research on the whole issue.

[butter21]

I would suggest that you do some research on how the disability permits came to be and by what group those rules can be modified and /or changed.

In fact judging by your posts you should do some research on the whole issue.
Research all the stuff ive been talking about is all optional things so...

[Liv4Huntin']

Yea we have been conspiring against crossbows all this time.
Well, thanks for stating your position, identifying yourself, and telling us your history. At least now we know......;)
~ m ~

[butter21]

Well, thanks for stating your position, identifying yourself, and telling us your history. At least now we know......;)
~ m ~
Know problem least we can agree im right.

[Liv4Huntin']

Know problem least we can agree im right.

I am only agreeing that you MUST be right.......;)
~ m ~

[TOW]

Yea we have been conspiring against crossbows all this time.

oh Yeah...

Why would they lay down their firearm for a crossbow, that statement doesn't even make sense.

Sorry that it went over your head. Not sure how I can make it any plainer.

Very, very few deer hunters hunt with archery gear of any kind during fireram season, do they?

But that is where the old Ad Hoc Crossbow Committee put crossbows.

I hope that you understand now as I am not very good at drawing pictures....

[butter21]

oh Yeah...

.

Sorry that it went over your head. Not sure how I can make it any plainer.

Very, very few deer hunters hunt with archery gear of any kind during fireram season, do they?

But that is where the old Ad Hoc Crossbow Committee put crossbows.

I hope that you understand now as I am not very good at drawing pictures....
What im trying to say is, if i really wanted to shot a deer with a crossbow i would during gun season around thanks giving time. The reason that they put them there is because its similar to a gun but with the range of a compound bow.

[TOW]

What im trying to say is, if i really wanted to shot a deer with a crossbow i would during gun season around thanks giving time. The reason that they put them there is because its similar to a gun but with the range of a compound bow.

No, no, no... they put them there to get rid of them, period.

They HAD to put them somewhere and firearm season was chosen so that crossbow would NEVER get off the ground.

[butter21]

No, no, no... they put them there to get rid of them, period.

They HAD to put them somewhere and firearm season was chosen so that crossbow would NEVER get off the ground.
HAHHAHAHHAH no they put them there b/c they are closer to a gun then a bow. Im not saying they are gun but they aren't a bow either. Thats why im in favor of making a season for it. Just like black powder. I just laugh that you say they put them there to not get off the ground like they had something against crossbows!!! :lol:

[TOW]

HAHHAHAHHAH no they put them there b/c they are closer to a gun then a bow. Im not saying they are gun but they aren't a bow either. Thats why im in favor of making a season for it. Just like black powder. I just laugh that you say they put them there to not get off the ground like they had something against crossbows!!! :lol:

Were you there when it happened?

No, you weren't. You are just someone blowing off on the net about something that you know absolutely nothing about.

Laugh at that one.. :lol:

[butter21]

Were you there when it happened?

No, you weren't. You are just someone blowing off on the net about something that you know absolutely nothing about.

Laugh at that one.. :lol:
You were their i bet to ;)

[TOW]

You were their i bet to ;)

Now you are catching on.. :rolleyes:

[specificgravity]

Neither of you two were there. How do I know? Beeeeecause I was there and didn't see either of you. ;)

[butter21]

Now you are catching on.. :rolleyes:
Yea so your saying at the meeting, they all said how can me make the crossbow not get off the ground, I know lets put during firearm season!! :rolleyes::lol::lol:

[Whit1]

Guys let's keep the little digs out of these threads. The issue of crossbows creates enough emotion on its own without being added to with the tidbits of personal slams. Certainly they have been minor so far, but, as experience has shown in every topic that is controversial, the minor insults often escalate into regional warfare.

PMs have been sent to members who are posting on both sides of these issues urging caution and a rethinking of how one responds to another poster's comments. At times the very best response is none at all. If the need arises there is always the Ignore button that is available.

[Riva]

Guys let's keep the little digs out of these threads. The issue of crossbows creates enough emotion on its own without being added to with the tidbits of personal slams. Certainly they have been minor so far, but, as experience has shown in every topic that is controversial, the minor insults often escalate into regional warfare.

PMs have been sent to members who are posting on both sides of these issues urging caution and a rethinking of how one responds to another poster's comments. At times the very best response is none at all. If the need arises there is always the Ignore button that is available.

Great advice.

[Riva]

That HB 5741 H2 that will call for full inclusion of the crossbow during any season where archery equipment is permitted, won a vote by the full House of Representatives by a whopping 94-14 vote.

91% of the House Democrats and 78% of the House Republicans voted in support of this landmark bill.

No matter what party affiliation you keep, know that both sides of the aisle, Republican and Democrats alike, now say "yes" to hunter opportunity and, they say "yes" to choice!:)

[Groundsize]

How could anyone support this bill? It's bad enough going on state land during firearm season. Can't wait to have some lazy hunter shoot at sound and hace a arrow fly past me or in me on Oct 1st. HMMM let's see we have youth shooting guns in Sept. an early doe with guns in Oct and now loaded arrow flingers all season. That's not going to bother the deer at all. I'm going to start a e-mail campaign to see if we can shoot from our trucks with the dogs chasing them. Then I'm going to get a great dane to go get my fawn for me that way my lazy butt can stay in my car and drink beer. Don't worry I would have a DD.:rant:


Last time I recalled I could very well lob an arrow past a fellow hunter with my bow. Oh and I know my bow is almost or faster than a crossbow. I think you need to run for an elected position having all those bias answers. What is a loaded arrow anyway? And if I had kids I would for sure take them hunting durring those elected seasons. I bet when you were young enough to go deer hunting as a youth durring early season you would have bugged your dad like crazy to take you.

My 2 cents.

[TOW]

........... What is a loaded arrow anyway? .............

That is what Rambo shot in the movie.. ;)


http://www.humanproductivitylab.com/images/Cisco%20Rambo%20Bowshot.jpg

[Fred Bear]

we dont need any cross guns in the woods. all this will attract is the "if its brown it's down" crowd. Once they find out it's not as easy as they think it will be they will be back to there orange army, plopped on a bucket, or driving a corn field shooting at everthing brown that moves ways. I give it 2 years and cross guns wont be much of an issue.
Thank god those things cost a bunch. Not like the $139 shotgun.

[Buckeye Dan]

we dont need any cross guns in the woods. all this will attract is the "if its brown it's down" crowd. Once they find out it's not as easy as they think it will be they will be back to there orange army, plopped on a bucket, or driving a corn field shooting at everthing brown that moves ways. I give it 2 years and cross guns wont be much of an issue.
Thank god those things cost a bunch. Not like the $139 shotgun.

Our messiah! Fred Bear! Thank you for returning from the grave to bless us with your vertical bow hunter wisdom!!!
Mr Bear can I ask a favor of your living descendants to provide us with the photos of you taking game with crossbows in the 60's? Some of those photos where you are actually holding the crossbow? I have seen them but they predate the digital photos of today. Maybe they could be scanned? Please explain why your F series production line crossbow had a forced recall in the past few years. Since you were dead at the time these crossbows went into production what would you have done different?

[Riva]

Our messiah! Fred Bear! Thank you for returning from the grave to bless us with your vertical bow hunter wisdom!!!
Mr Bear can I ask a favor of your living descendants to provide us with the photos of you taking game with crossbows in the 60's? Some of those photos where you are actually holding the crossbow? I have seen them but they predate the digital photos of today. Maybe they could be scanned? Please explain why your F series production line crossbow had a forced recall in the past few years. Since you were dead at the time these crossbows went into production what would you have done different?


I wouldn't elevate the late Fred Bear into any messianic stature as perhaps some here are inclined to do. The mantra, " What would Fred Do?" seems to be the panacea for all the pro, as well as anti crossbow advocates to provide a final and total legitimacy to their arguements. That's just nuts!

Don't think that simply producing a picture of ol' Fred holding a crossbow does anything more (or less) than just that, a picture of ol' Fred holding a crossbow. Conversely, even if it turned out that O'l Fred was a staunch anti crossbow advocate, which he wasn't by virtue of his manufacturing presence for decades, I still wouldn't considered them to be "divinically inspired." i.e., just another person's opinion

The point is this, while Fred Bear obviously a noble human being in his own right, and did much to champion the cause for archery in all its forms, decisions surrounding the expansion of the crossbow are not, and will not be influenced by the legacy of one historical person. Rather, they will be made soley on the basis of science, hunter opportunity and financial impact-- as they should be!

[Michihunter]

Rather, they will be made soley on the basis of science, hunter opportunity and financial impact-- as they should be!
Just not necessarily in that order.:D:D:D

[Fred Bear]

you do realize I'm not the real Fred Bear, right? :corkysm55

[Riva]

you do realize I'm not the real Fred Bear, right? :corkysm55

Tell me it aint so!!:yikes:

:)

[Fred Bear]

LOL!!
I just dont like the idea of x-bows during the archery season. I have had no less than 3 people at my work tell me they are getting them (we will see). These are orange army hunters. Notice I did not say gun hunters.
When I say orange army hunters I mean the type that shoot everything that moves and come back into work asking - how many have you got, you cant eat the antlers anyway, the small ones taste better ect..
I dont believe these people are ethical nor do they understand the sport. It's some kind of bragging rights to them. These are the same kind that shoot deer on there grandmothers tag. (if they use a tag).
For the next couple of years we will have to deal with this type of .... ,do I dare say hunter... in our archery woods.
I guess Michigan does not care about our deer herd. But boy keep a 10" bass!!!!! You know what the difference is? Bass dont get hit by cars. The way MI manages our deer herd makes me sick. Raise our tags to $50 and make the rule 4 points on one side.
If FB promoted the use of x-bows I am sure it was in the true nature of the sport and probably more about his business than his believes.

[Jasperman]

So what if X Bow had it's OWN season?

X Bow Oct 1 - 15
Compound ONLY Oct 16 - 31
Longbow or Recurve ONLY Nov 1 -15

Now what is the argument again? Me first my way? We don't want anyone less 'deserving' to get OUR deer?

What if we went
Oct 1 -15 Longbow/Recurve ONLY
Oct 15 - 31 Previous + Compound (or maybe Compound only - need to have our OWN season)
Nov 1 - 15 Previous + X bow (or X bow ONLY)

I can almost feel the RAGE already as you read the blasphemous first two lines of this lighthearted post;)

[November Sunrise]

you do realize I'm not the real Fred Bear, right? :corkysm55

LOL!

One of the best one liners I've read on this forum in a long time. I love it.

[butter21]

Our messiah! Fred Bear! Thank you for returning from the grave to bless us with your vertical bow hunter wisdom!!!
Mr Bear can I ask a favor of your living descendants to provide us with the photos of you taking game with crossbows in the 60's? Some of those photos where you are actually holding the crossbow? I have seen them but they predate the digital photos of today. Maybe they could be scanned? Please explain why your F series production line crossbow had a forced recall in the past few years. Since you were dead at the time these crossbows went into production what would you have done different?
Everything you said my have been true, but I just read the last sentence and decided not to read the rest. Fred Bear has nothing to do with the xbows Bear Archery makes.

So what if X Bow had it's OWN season?

X Bow Oct 1 - 15
Compound ONLY Oct 16 - 31
Longbow or Recurve ONLY Nov 1 -15

Now what is the argument again? Me first my way? We don't want anyone less 'deserving' to get OUR deer?

What if we went
Oct 1 -15 Longbow/Recurve ONLY
Oct 15 - 31 Previous + Compound (or maybe Compound only - need to have our OWN season)
Nov 1 - 15 Previous + X bow (or X bow ONLY)

I can almost feel the RAGE already as you read the blasphemous first two lines of this lighthearted post;)
I'm on board. But the crossbow fan boys don't like the idea. ;)

[TOW]

Everything you said my have been true, but I just read the last sentence and decided not to read the rest. Fred Bear has nothing to do with the xbows Bear Archery makes.


I'm on board. But the crossbow fan boys don't like the idea. ;)


I'll buy in...only NEXT year we change places in line, right? We want to be "fair and balanced"..

2009 - 2010 season

Oct 1 -15 X bow ONLY
Oct 15 - 31 Previous + Longbow/Recurve
Nov 1 - 15 Previous + Compound

Then the NEXT year we change places in line again....

Or we could all just go hunting ALL of archery season. Which one makes the most sense?

[Michihunter]

Or we could all just go hunting ALL of archery season. Which one makes the most sense?The nice thing about this last option is that ANYONE could mandate their own personal restrictions according to the previous options you posted. Freedom of choice is a good thing.;):D:D

[TOW]

The nice thing about this last option is that ANYONE could mandate their own personal restrictions according to the previous options you posted. Freedom of choice is a good thing.;):D:D

Yes it is.

There will be no forcing of anyone to shoot this or that bow or you cant hunt....

[butter21]

I'll buy in...only NEXT year we change places in line, right? We want to be "fair and balanced"..

2009 - 2010 season

Oct 1 -15 X bow ONLY
Oct 15 - 31 Previous + Longbow/Recurve
Nov 1 - 15 Previous + Compound

Then the NEXT year we change places in line again....

Or we could all just go hunting ALL of archery season. Which one makes the most sense?
Why change it every year? O wait is that the fan boys shooting down the idea again b/c they want to use their toys?


I see you hunt private land? ;)

[TOW]

Why change it every year? O wait is that the fan boys shooting down the idea again b/c they want to use their toys?

Why not? Fair and balanced....Do you actually believe that one group of hunters deserves something that other hunters don't?

You might wnat to be very careful on thisi divying up of the seasons. The gun hunters might want a piece of that early seasons pie too.

I see you hunt private land? ;)

Both...

[FYRE926]

I am not the most elequent speaker but I've read so many posts for and against legalization of crossbows here in MI it baffles me how what I would hope are good common sense hunters and fishermen can cut their nose off to spite their faces on this topic.

That being said I am always stunned that the very people who are against legalizing crossbows on a limited or across the board basis are the first ones to scream foul when they are denied something hunting or fishing wise either by the DNR or public vote. Who are you to say what another person should be allowed to do as long as it does not harm you or society. If these weapons are legalized do you honestly believe that the flood gates will open and people will flow forth from every nook and cranny engulfing every bowhunters perfect spot? Unless they trespass no one is going into anothers hunting ground without permission. Would there be more hunters afield if crossbows are legalized for all? Personally I hope so! Many people I know do not hunt or fish and in fact they find it in some cases very distasteful but they do not lobby against others because they wish too. Freedom of choice cannot be only when it benefits you or because you agree with it. Let us not forget that at this very moment there are Men and Women far from home serving our Nation and Veterans who have sacrificed so much to protect the very freedoms we enjoy and those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice. Thank you to each of you and your families for your service and sacrifice.

[woodie slayer]

the ANTIS love it

seperate sasons for each type of bow is stupid ..all it does is seperate us into smaller groups.we must sick together..

or don't we remember what happened to the dove season

[bellasboss]

Just imagine that you could no longer hunt with a "regular bow". Can you imagine watching October 1st and the first 15 days of Nov. come and go and you were left on the sidelines.

Well, I've got news for alot of you...AGE HAPPENS!

So, think about that before you fight against crossbows. AGE is not an excuse and permits for disabilities are a costly pain in the **** and a little embarrassing to obtain.

A crossbow is not as effective a weapon as any of my compounds, period! I could shoot any of them more accurate at twice the range of a crossbow and with more effective KNE.

Yes, we'll be sharing the woods and our sadly shrinking hunting areas with more and possibly less "motivated people". BUT, we'll also be increasing our hunters ranks and numbers (Read voter/political power). This single reason alone should give you pause to stop and think about all this infighting and bickering.

Happy trails...

BB

[Terry Williams]

Really? So you could shoot a 100yds with your compund?

A crossbow is not as effective a weapon as any of my compounds, period! I could shoot any of them more accurate at twice the range of a crossbow and with more effective KNE.

http://talismancrossbows.com/component/option,com_seyret/Itemid,5/task,videodirectlink/id,14/

[BigBirdVA]

Really? So you could shoot a 100yds with your compund?

A crossbow is not as effective a weapon as any of my compounds, period! I could shoot any of them more accurate at twice the range of a crossbow and with more effective KNE.

http://talismancrossbows.com/component/option,com_seyret/Itemid,5/task,videodirectlink/id,14/Shooting 100 or 200 yds doesn't mean you can hit a deer at that range. Last time I checked targets don't jump the string or decide to move once the arrow is launched. :lol:

[gplant]

So where does the Bill stand now?? Do we get to use Crossbows?or is it still up for a vote?:confused:

[Riva]

So where does the Bill stand now?? Do we get to use Crossbows?or is it still up for a vote?:confused:

The bill, HB5741 H2, has been referred to the Michigan Senate. Once approved there, it will go to Govenor Grandholm for her signature.

As to your question, "Do we get to use crossbows?", the answer is this:

- If you meet Michigan's current criteria that allows a person with a disability to participate as an equal, the answer is "YES".

- If you want to use a crossbow during Michigan's firearm deer season, the answer is "YES!"

- If you want full inclusion for crossbows during any season where archery equipment is currently permitted, email your Senator today and tell him/her to vote "YES" on HB5741 H2.

[gplant]

The bill, HB5741 H2, has been referred to the Michigan Senate. Once approved there, it will go to Govenor Grandholm for her signature.

As to your question, "Do we get to use crossbows?", the answer is this:

- If you meet Michigan's current criteria that allows a person with a disability to participate as an equal, the answer is "YES".

- If you want to use a crossbow during Michigan's firearm deer season, the answer is "YES!"

- If you want full inclusion for crossbows during any season where archery equipment is currently permitted, email your Senator today and tell him/her to vote "YES" on HB5741 H2.
THANK YOU!!! Letter sent to REP.

[Munsterlndr]

Really? So you could shoot a 100yds with your compund?


So could you if you spent less time typing and more time practicing. :lol:

This guy is making 185 yards look like a piece of cake. Nice group!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03y2BarHcUs

This guy does not seem to be having much trouble at 100 yds. but he's cheating using those new fangled FOB arrows. There oughta be a law requiring the use of 5" turkey feathers, after all it's the tradition! :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F0-jKmvCCI&feature=related

[TOW]

So could you if you spent less time typing and more time practicing. :lol:

This guy is making 185 yards look like a piece of cake. Nice group!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03y2BarHcUs



Ahhhh, you beat me to it..

PSE X Force..355 fps....they don't get much beter than that...

Pete Shepley has one on there somewhere when he shoots a mule deer at 92 yards....

[Michihunter]

Don't forget the Whisker Biscuit shooter at 135 yards!!:D:D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVbm7y6S5OM

[gplant]

Ahhhh, you beat me to it..

PSE X Force..355 fps....they don't get much beter than that...

Pete Shepley has one on there somewhere when he shoots a mule deer at 92 yards....
The X-Force is the best bow I have every shot!! Its as smooth as it is fast.Rumor has it they(PSE) may come out with a crossbow using the same type cams.

[michigandeerslayer]

The X-Force is the best bow I have every shot!! Its as smooth as it is fast.Rumor has it they(PSE) may come out with a crossbow using the same type cams.:yikes::yikes::yikes: I can hear it now:rant::rant::rant:

[D-BEAVER]

Really? So you could shoot a 100yds with your compund?

A crossbow is not as effective a weapon as any of my compounds, period! I could shoot any of them more accurate at twice the range of a crossbow and with more effective KNE.

http://talismancrossbows.com/component/option,com_seyret/Itemid,5/task,videodirectlink/id,14/

This is the only thing that concerns me about the inclusion of crossbows... The common misconception that they are some mystical long range weapon, far superior to the compound bow... That since they are held like a gun, they'll shoot like one. This is simply not true.

Most crossbow users would be well advised to limit their shots to 30 yards. There will be a few dedicated individuals who familiarize themselves with their equipment and practice enough to extend this range quite a bit, but they will be few and far between.

My rule of thumb... If it's too far to shoot with a compound, it's too far to shoot with a crossbow. Period.

[gplant]

:yikes::yikes::yikes: I can hear it now:rant::rant::rant:
SORRY! Meaning what???

[Riva]

This is the only thing that concerns me about the inclusion of crossbows... The common misconception that they are some mystical long range weapon, far superior to the compound bow... That since they are held like a gun, they'll shoot like one. This is simply not true.

Most crossbow users would be well advised to limit their shots to 30 yards. There will be a few dedicated individuals who familiarize themselves with their equipment and practice enough to extend this range quite a bit, but they will be few and far between.

My rule of thumb... If it's too far to shoot with a compound, it's too far to shoot with a crossbow. Period.

The key to all of this is to establish maximum poundage limitatations and conversely, mininimum let-off percentages--for both. Think about it!

[oldbhtrnewequip]

The key to all of this is to establish maximum poundage limitatations and conversely, mininimum let-off percentages--for both. Think about it!

Is there an established limit for compounds?

[skulldugary]

Well,I would'nt go out and drop a grand on a new crossbow just yet.Theres too much time from when the House passed it until it goes before The Senate and then on to Jenny fo r the special intrest groups to do some back dooring and whispering in some ears.If you are'nt sending e-mails,writing letters and making the phone calls in favor of full inclusion then if it fails to pass you have no complaint....JMO

[TOW]

Well,I would'nt go out and drop a grand on a new crossbow just yet.Theres too much time from when the House passed it until it goes before The Senate and then on to Jenny fo r the special intrest groups to do some back dooring and whispering in some ears.If you are'nt sending e-mails,writing letters and making the phone calls in favor of full inclusion then if it fails to pass you have no complaint....JMO

Right... the fat lady has not sung yet..... but she is tuning up in the wings. ;)

[Joe Archer]

[FONT=Verdana]House Bill 5741 was adopted by the House Tourism, Outdoor Recreation and Natural Resources Committee today with an overwhelming majority of the committee members in support of the bill. An H-2 version of the bill was adopted allowing crossbow use in any season and for any game in which a compound bow may be used.

Dear Representative ___________________________
R
R
R
R
R
R
R
R
R
R

Great summary! RRRRRRRRRR....

Scuse me, I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.
I am not sure if it is because the future of Michigan will see crossbow hunters outnumber compound/traditional hunters, more deer will be harvested with the crossbow and the tradition of archery will suffer a staggering blow...
-OR- That so many crossbow AND compound hunters believe 40-50 yard shots are reasonable.
Congrats in advance on what seems to be an inevitable victory. I hope that future topics of this board deal with the limitations of the crossbow, respect for wildlife, and help define ethical shot selection as 30 yards or less.
If you help educate the new hunter on his/her limitations, the number of crippled animals do not sky rocket, the increased pressure of state land is nearly discernable, the season length is not effected, and hunting fees remain affordable; I will raise my glass and toast your success as the house bill passes into Michigan law.
<----<<<

[2PawsRiver]

Well,I would'nt go out and drop a grand on a new crossbow just yet.Theres too much time from when the House passed it until it goes before The Senate and then on to Jenny fo r the special intrest groups to do some back dooring and whispering in some ears.If you are'nt sending e-mails,writing letters and making the phone calls in favor of full inclusion then if it fails to pass you have no complaint....JMO

I do have an interest, though I wouldn't call it back dooring, but I am making calls, sending Faxes and E-mails:)

[oldbhtrnewequip]

Great summary! RRRRRRRRRR....

Scuse me, I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.
I am not sure if it is because the future of Michigan will see crossbow hunters outnumber compound/traditional hunters, ...
<----<<<

When do you expect that to happen?

[Joe Archer]

That is the current status of Ohio after 30 years.
All we know for sure is that year by year we will see incremental increases in the percentages and numbers of hunters using the crossbow. At least, every state that has adopted the crossbow have seen (and boasted about) these incremental changes. In Ohio, the majority of hunters use crossbows and harvest more deer with crossbows than compounds.
Goodbye old friend.
<----<<<

[Michihunter]

That is the current status of Ohio after 30 years.
All we know for sure is that year by year we will see incremental increases in the percentages and numbers of hunters using the crossbow. At least, every state that has adopted the crossbow have seen (and boasted about) these incremental changes. In Ohio, the majority of hunters use crossbows and harvest more deer with crossbows than compounds.
Goodbye old friend.
<----<<<I think it's kind of nice to see people embracing ancient forms of archery.;)

[10PtCrossbow]

Great summary! RRRRRRRRRR....

Scuse me, I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.
I am not sure if it is because the future of Michigan will see crossbow hunters outnumber compound/traditional hunters, more deer will be harvested with the crossbow and the tradition of archery will suffer a staggering blow...
<----<<<

Joe, this will not effect the tradition of archery. People will still be allowed to shoot with recurves, long bows, and compounds. That does not change. You will just gain archers through the crossbow as well.

While OH has more crossbow users, you have to keep in mind that took about 20 years to get to that point. You also gained a bunch or compound bow shooters in that 20 years as well. AR, GA and AL are not where near those high of percentages. You again imply season lengths might be an issue, and you are correct, they might be, but of all the states that have added crossbows, I don't believe any archery season in those states has been shortened and I think several (I know OH) have gotten longer SINCE the inclusion of crossbows.

[RobFromFlint]

Great summary! RRRRRRRRRR....

Scuse me, I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.
I am not sure if it is because the future of Michigan will see crossbow hunters outnumber compound/traditional hunters, more deer will be harvested with the crossbow and the tradition of archery will suffer a staggering blow...
-OR- That so many crossbow AND compound hunters believe 40-50 yard shots are reasonable.
Congrats in advance on what seems to be an inevitable victory. I hope that future topics of this board deal with the limitations of the crossbow, respect for wildlife, and help define ethical shot selection as 30 yards or less.
If you help educate the new hunter on his/her limitations, the number of crippled animals do not sky rocket, the increased pressure of state land is nearly discernable, the season length is not effected, and hunting fees remain affordable; I will raise my glass and toast your success as the house bill passes into Michigan law.
<----<<<


So 2600 years old isn't traditonal enough? http://www.mazirian.com/balistarius/moments/greatMomentsInCrossbowHistory.html

[Joe Archer]

So 2600 years old isn't traditonal enough? http://www.mazirian.com/balistarius/moments/greatMomentsInCrossbowHistory.html
For me? Nope. I and about 40% of other members who took part in a poll on these forums (30/79) said that we didn't consider crossbows archery. Other than that, there really is no tradition of crossbows in Michigan.
Anyway, relax and enjoy. It is not a shame to choose a less challenging weapon. You will very likely (as many examples have shows) have some very rewarding hunts. Heck, even a relative of mine who I taught hunting and archery (who just seemed to miss many times more animals than he harvested) said he couldn't wait to be able to hunt with a crossbow. He will definitely take more deer with this method. After all, a better chance at taking deer.... that is what it all boils down to anyway. Isn't it?
<----<<<

[TOW]

Joe,

ALL "traditions" have to start some time or another.

To say the only hunting tools that should be allowed are the time honored "tradition tools" is looking backwards....

Once upon a time there was no "archery hunting tradition" in Michigan, right?

[Joe Archer]

Joe,

ALL "traditions" have to start some time or another.

To say the only hunting tools that should be allowed are the time honored "tradition tools" is looking backwards....

Once upon a time there was no "archery hunting tradition" in Michigan, right?
Seriously, have fun! enjoy!
This is all I really came here to say...

Great summary! RRRRRRRRRR....

Scuse me, I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.
I am not sure if it is because the future of Michigan will see crossbow hunters outnumber compound/traditional hunters, more deer will be harvested with the crossbow and the tradition of archery will suffer a staggering blow...
-OR- That so many crossbow AND compound hunters believe 40-50 yard shots are reasonable.
Congrats in advance on what seems to be an inevitable victory. I hope that future topics of this board deal with the limitations of the crossbow, respect for wildlife, and help define ethical shot selection as 30 yards or less.
If you help educate the new hunter on his/her limitations, the number of crippled animals do not sky rocket, the increased pressure of state land is nearly discernable, the season length is not effected, and hunting fees remain affordable; I will raise my glass and toast your success as the house bill passes into Michigan law.
See ya!
<----<<<

[RobFromFlint]

For me? Nope. I and about 40% of other members who took part in a poll on these forums (30/79) said that we didn't consider crossbows archery. Other than that, there really is no tradition of crossbows in Michigan.
Anyway, relax and enjoy. It is not a shame to choose a less challenging weapon. You will very likely (as many examples have shows) have some very rewarding hunts. Heck, even a relative of mine who I taught hunting and archery (who just seemed to miss many times more animals than he harvested) said he couldn't wait to be able to hunt with a crossbow. He will definitely take more deer with this method. After all, a better chance at taking deer.... that is what it all boils down to anyway. Isn't it?
<----<<<


Really don't think I'll enjoy a crossbow, I only hunt with a longbow.

[ATB]

Right... the fat lady has not sung yet..... but she is tuning up in the wings. ;)

Your right if you oppose full inclusion folks call, send emails and faxes to your reps.

[Whit1]

Posts that take these threads off topic are being deleted. If the same members continue to interupt the flow of the discussion with unnecessary postings they will begin to fall under MS' policy for taking care of such activity and that will come down to more serious action than merely deleting posts.

If someposts something that is immflamotory I'd urge those who follow these threads NOT to respond. You may be caught up in the mischief making of someone else and take part in the measures that we use to curb such members.

[oldbhtrnewequip]

Most of the hunting regulations that I've looked at over the years in various states are very prescriptive in defining minimum (and in some cases maximum) requirements of a piece of hunting gear. The "minimum" generally ensures that the equipment in use is capable of putting down an animal. Sometimes the maximum does as well (3 shells in a shotgun so folks aren't flinging lead at birds too far away.) Either that or it limits the quantity of animals you can take. Depends on your point of view I guess.

Sometimes maximum is used to enforce safety (shotgun only counties).

Where do the characteristics of a crossbow get defined? Is it a part of the bill, (doesn't look like it) or is that definition left up the DNR

dubya_dubya_dubya.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_37141_37706-31578--,00.html

I assumed the DNR would spell it out in hunting regulations even if it was part of the bill. I spent 15-20 minutes looking for regulations that define minimum/maximum definitions for any type of archery gear. I was able to find reference to plugged guns but that was about it.

dubya_dubya_dubya.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_10856_10905---,00.html

Can anyone point me to the regulations that define minimum and maximum qualities associated with hunting equipment...and specifically archery gear?


Pete

[Whit1]

Even if what is posted has solid points to offer or a new twist, please stay on the topic of the thread. Post new stuff in a new thread.

[oldbhtrnewequip]

...Anyway, relax and enjoy. It is not a shame to choose a less challenging weapon. .... After all, a better chance at taking deer.... that is what it all boils down to anyway. Isn't it?
<----<<<


Joe,

Thanks for the reply.

I'm a big fan of self imposed limitations within a range of limitations enforced by the state. The state gets to define the ethical boundaries for all while individuals get to pick/choose how much of a challenge they want. Otherwise you'd have someone wanting to lay rightful claim to being the first hunter ever to takedown an 8 pointer with a tiddly wink, while someone else would want to use multiple heat seeking warheads on an intermediate range missile.

There would be those who would say that if someone can take a deer down with a tiddly wink then he/she ought to be able to do just that. I think the state would be concerned with how many bucks have had an eye put out of service by a poorly placed shot.

Do you agree that you can't legislate ethics but can only teach them?

This may be tough for you to believe but there are crossbow hunters who want to use medieval style bows and are very happy to limit their shots to <20 yards. The range of 'ideals' about what equipment to use relative to what was available when, or the aesthetic qualities of a piece of gear can apply as equally to crossbow hunters as it does vertical bow hunters.

Some of the finest pieces of work I have ever seen are handcrafted longbows. I've seen some crossbows that are right up there when it comes to craftsmanship. I also look upon some of our high tech compounds and crossbows with equal awe as I think about what it took to put this thing in front of me.

I think there's a lot more to it than just taking a deer. Its a mixed bag.

Here's to setting our ever higher goals and acheiving them this year.;)

Pete

[Riva]

My assumption is that the bill to allow for full inclusion of the crossbow
(HB 5741 H2) would carry over the same poundage requirements that are currently on the disabled person application, specifically:

Crossbow - a weapon consisting of a bow mounted transversely on a stock or frame and designed to fire an arrow bolt or quarrel by the release of a bow string controlled by a mechanical or electric trigger with a working safety and a draw weight of 100 pounds or greater.

I do not see any maximum poundage requirements but, they it could exist.

FWIW..I shoot a 15-year-old 150 pound crossbow that flings an arrow at a blistering 240 fps. I'm deadly out to an eye-popping 20 yards max! :)

[oldbhtrnewequip]

My assumption is that the bill to allow for full inclusion of the crossbow
(HB 5741 H2) would carry over the same poundage requirements that are currently on the disabled person application, specifically:


Crossbow
- a weapon consisting of a bow mounted transversely on a stock or frame and designed to fire an arrow bolt or quarrel by the release of a bow string controlled by a mechanical or electric trigger with a working safety and a draw weight of 100 pounds or greater.

I do not see any maximum poundage requirements but, they could exists.

FWIW..I shoot a 15-year-old 150 pound crossbow that flings an arrow at a blistering 240 fps. I'm deadly out to an eye-popping 20 yards max! :)


thanks Riva,

Can you point me to a link on the DNR web site that has this defined for disabled hunters?

Pete

[boehr]

thanks Riva,

Can you point me to a link on the DNR web site that has this defined for disabled hunters?

Pete

[/LEFT]
Here you go, page 2 of the application.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/PR9134E_149461_7.pdf

[Weekender#1]

In Ohio the law for crossbows only allows for up to 200 Lb draw, I am not sure why but that is the law.
Has the crossbow law passed yet in the state of Michigan?

[Whit1]

Has the crossbow law passed yet in the state of Michigan?

No, the bill is someplace between the state house and senate.

Now, back to the topic under discussion.

[oldbhtrnewequip]

Here you go, page 2 of the application.


Thanks Boehr :)

Pete

[doubleaught]

I started bow huunting 40yrs ago. First with a recurve then a compound. 7yrs ago I had to go to a crossbow because of a disablety. I have never shot at a deer beyond 30yards with any of them. It is no easier to take a deer with a crossbow than a compound. My problem is with the peaple who say I have to be restricted to a two week season. And cannot enjoy the three months that compound users get to enjoy. I have to renew my permit every 2yrs some of the physical therapist are charging upto $200 for the evaluation. If I had my way I would still use my compound if I could. good luck to all

________________________
double aught

[Riva]

I started bow hunting 40yrs ago. First with a recurve then, a compound. 7-years ago, I had to go to a crossbow because of a disability. I have never shot at a deer beyond 30 yards with any of them. It is no easier to take a deer with a crossbow than a compound. My problem is with the people who say I have to be restricted to a two week season. And cannot enjoy the three months that compound users get to enjoy. I have to renew my permit every 2yrs some of the physical therapist are charging up to $200 for the evaluation. If I had my way I would still use my compound if I could. Good luck to all

________________________
double aught

Great post.

Thank you.:)

[Michihunter]

I started bow huunting 40yrs ago. First with a recurve then a compound. 7yrs ago I had to go to a crossbow because of a disablety. I have never shot at a deer beyond 30yards with any of them. It is no easier to take a deer with a crossbow than a compound. My problem is with the peaple who say I have to be restricted to a two week season. And cannot enjoy the three months that compound users get to enjoy. I have to renew my permit every 2yrs some of the physical therapist are charging upto $200 for the evaluation. If I had my way I would still use my compound if I could. good luck to all

________________________
double aughtSorry to hear of your disability. Darn shame that you are being discriminated against because of it ($200 to obtain verification:(). I tend to believe that most hunters agree with you that If you could you'd remain shooting a compound. I believe the vast majority will even if this passes.

[CHASINEYES]

I started bow huunting 40yrs ago. First with a recurve then a compound. 7yrs ago I had to go to a crossbow because of a disablety. I have never shot at a deer beyond 30yards with any of them. It is no easier to take a deer with a crossbow than a compound. My problem is with the peaple who say I have to be restricted to a two week season. And cannot enjoy the three months that compound users get to enjoy. I have to renew my permit every 2yrs some of the physical therapist are charging upto $200 for the evaluation. If I had my way I would still use my compound if I could. good luck to all

________________________
double aught

That is just pathetic they make you renew every 2 yrs and then pay $200 each time!!! Sorry to hear that.

[tonyc662]

I for one hope this bill passes.My dad can barely pull a 50 pound bow back anymore & refuses to go threw the hassel to get a permit for a crossbow.This will let him be able to enjoy bow season again.I will continue to use my compound until i am unable to.It's just another tool for those to use if they wish.

[Riva]

I for one hope this bill passes.My dad can barely pull a 50 pound bow back anymore & refuses to go threw the hassle to get a permit for a crossbow.This will let him be able to enjoy bow season again.I will continue to use my compound until i am unable to.It's just another tool for those to use if they wish.

Again, tell your dad that there is a very good chance that the medical criteria that will allow a person to use a crossbow during any season where other archery equipment is allowed, is very likely to change THIS MONTH!

I have reviewed the proposed criteria and it is light years less restrictive than the crap that is currently on the books. No more "hassle" as you call it.

I can't say when HB5741 H2, a bill that will allow for full inclusion of the crossbow during any season where other archery equipment is permitted, will be enacted. This, of course, would negate any need for medical -related permits. However; it is not law just yet. So, give your old man a kick in the butt on September 1, and have him take the exam. Hell, he's got to take his annual physical anyway, just have the doctor conduct the test during that visit and it probably won't cost you any extra money!!

The is absolutely NO reason why your dad should not be out in the woods with you come October 1. But YOU have to help... get him to take the new exam and then, help all the others who likewise want to have a choice in which archery weapon to use and write your Michigan Senator and express your support for HB5741 H2.

Good luck to you and you dad.

[2PawsRiver]

Another sound argument for full inclusion. Will allow those that choose not to go throught the current process to hunt.:)

[Michihunter]

Another sound argument for full inclusion. Will allow those that choose not to go throught the current process to hunt.:)
The soft jab you offer does not take into account the cost of that process 2Paws, which in anyone's terms discriminates by making the cost of obtaining that license FAR greater for those that are disabled. The ones that can afford it the least are penalized the most.;)

[Riva]

The soft jab you offer does not take into account the cost of that process 2Paws, which in anyone's terms discriminates by making the cost of obtaining that license FAR greater for those that are disabled. The ones that can afford it the least are penalized the most.;)

It is precisely for that reason that I suggested to Tony that his father have the test conducted during some other visit to the doctor such as a annual physical, etc. I know that when I obtained my permit (1994?) I paid for the physical therapist test out of pocket because I had no valid reason to go there other than for the range-of-motion the test. However; I see my personal physician every 2 months and, during my next visit, I simply asked if he would review and validate the PT's test results, which he gladly did (for free.)

Believe me, there are those that are counting on the "roll of the dice factor" whereby a person with a medical disability would not even take the examination in the first place for fear that, if they did not meet the criteria, that it would be money down the drain. It's sad, but it's true. Fortunately, with the new criteria, there are fewer "sevens" in these new dice so, even if you spent the money, the chances of you making your point (obtaining a permit) are much, much better.

My point: don't let money be the reason that you don't take the examination under the (proposed) new criteria. Better yet, let's pass HB5741 H2 and we'll put all this baloney behind us!:)

[Michihunter]

It is precisely for that reason that I suggested to Tony that his father have the test conducted during some other visit to the doctor such as a annual physical, etc. I know that when I obtained my permit (1994?) I paid for the physical therapist test out of pocket because I had no valid reason to go there other than for the range-of-motion the test. However; I see my personal physician every 2 months and, during my next visit, I simply asked if he would review and validate the PT's test results, which he gladly did (for free.)

Believe me, there are those that are counting on the "roll of the dice factor" whereby a person with a medical disability would not even take the examination in the first place for fear that, if they did not meet the criteria, that it would be money down the drain. It's sad, but it's true. Fortunately, with the new criteria, there are fewer "sevens" in these new dice so, even if you spent the money, the chances of you making your point (obtaining a permit) are much, much better.

My point: don't let money be the reason that you don't take the examination under the (proposed) new criteria. Better yet, let's pass HB5741 H2 and we'll put all this baloney behind us!:)
You, of course, are assuming that these people have insurance worthy of being considered "free".;)

[ridgewalker]

I have read in the minutes that the NRC working committee will present a new form and requirements for information only in August. The earliest this could be voted on is Sept. If I understood the language being discussed correctly there would still be an exam of some type and hoops to jump through for the disabled or physically challenged and possibly repeatedly. May not be much of an improvement? The bill in the senate has no timetable for now and the DNR has made no statement on it. Yes, I have contacted the entire senate committee and others for a positive vote because it may be my only chance to archery hunt again.

[2PawsRiver]

Not really a jab, just a reality, and really kind of supports one of my positions in regards to why I don't support full inclusion.

Maybe I missed it in the post, but it made no reference to cost, etc..........merely chooses not to go through the process.

[Riva]

I have read in the minutes that the NRC working committee will present a new form and requirements for information only in August. The earliest this could be voted on is Sept. If I understood the language being discussed correctly there would still be an exam of some type and hoops to jump through for the disabled or physically challenged and possibly repeatedly. May not be much of an improvement? The bill in the senate has no timetable for now and the DNR has made no statement on it. Yes, I have contacted the entire senate committee and others for a positive vote because it may be my only chance to archery hunt again.

Yes, there will be an exam however; the "hoops" that you have to go through will be nowhere near the crap that you do now. Is it an "improvent"? Anything would be an improvement over the current criteria and processes but, to answer your question.."yes"... you will be very very happy. Still, full inclusion would be better. LOTS better!

[ridgewalker]

Thanks Riva, I am hoping the change in process will make me happy beyond belief. After trying to get through the process for 4 years I have given up on bowhunting again. My drs, including the specialists, just do not want to get involved with the present app process. I am not getting younger and my PD is progressing along. I am hoping the present leg work would give me a few hunts before my time is up.

[Riva]

Thanks Riva, I am hoping the change in process will make me happy beyond belief. After trying to get through the process for 4 years I have given up on bow hunting again. My drs, including the specialists, just do not want to get involved with the present app process. I am not getting younger and my PD is progressing along. I am hoping the present leg work would give me a few hunts before my time is up.

That's frick'n baloney!

If, what you say is accurate and your doctors(s) refuse to sign off on the form or, he/she simply won't participate in the process out of fear of some sort of liability issue then, my advice to you is to call other local physicians on the telephone and simply ask if he/she has any trouble performing the test. The last time I looked, I have yet to find a doctor that hangs a sign of the front door that reads "we hate money".

In this manner, you don't burn any bridges with the doctor(s) who are giving you specialized care and, if you meet the criteria, you'll get your permit!

BTW--This is not "doctor shopping" as a clamorous few will soon assert. Rather, it is "doctor finding" because obviously you are simply attempting to find a physician who will perform the examination in the first place versus, some surrogate effort on your part to find a physician who will sign the form, whether you meet the criteria or not. Big difference.

To me, it sounds like you are going to have to go this route (doctor finding) even (if) after the new criteria is enacted because you regular doc is a wuss. Just get on the phone; it won't take you 10 minutes to find a doctor to perform the test.

That said, if you are adamant about not spending the money for an exam, write your senator and voice your support of HB5741 H2, a bill that will allow for the full inclusion of the crossbow during any season where other archery equipment is permitted. And, even if you do obtain your permit under the current or proposed criteria, still write your senator supporting HB5741 H2 because there are lots of other sportspersons in this state who may not necessarily have a disability but still wish to have the opportunity to have a choice of which type of archery equipment to use.

Hope this helps and, more importantly, hope to see you in the woods, with your crossbow, on October 1, 2008! :):)

r

[skulldugary]

I heard the same thing about it being dead in the water also by someone thats suppose to have an inside info source.Wish there was some sort of Michigan based organization that we could ban together with and be heard as one voice for the full inclusion cause.

[2PawsRiver]

I have just heard from a strong source that the bill is dead in the senate and will not be reevaluated at the earliest until Sept. 2009.

Have heard that as well. Thanks to those who submitted letters and sent faxes in hopes of preserving a bit of hunting ethics.

I have just heard from a strong source that the bill is dead in the senate and will not be reevaluated at the earliest until Sept. 2009.

It could be like an Affirmative Action Organization for Crossbow Shooters, with a mission even the playing field.:lol::lol::lol:

[Michihunter]

I have it setup so that I receive notification of any action on that bill and I haven't received anything in regard to this rumor. We shall see.;)

[Munsterlndr]

in hopes of preserving a bit of hunting ethics.


:confused: Guess you missed the memo about peace breaking out and not insulting other forum members. The implication that someone who uses a crossbow is somehow unethical certainly seems like a slap in the face to those members who are interested in hunting with a crossbow, for whatever reason. :16suspect

[swampbuck]

Have heard that as well. Thanks to those who submitted letters and sent faxes in hopes of preserving a bit of hunting ethics.



It could be like an Affirmative Action Organization for Crossbow Shooters, with a mission even the playing field.:lol::lol::lol:

The info is correct it is stalled because..........THE SENATE IS STILL ON BREAK, And the bill hasnt been presented yet.:dizzy:

[michigandeerslayer]

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244739

[Michihunter]

Here's the real deal: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(wfc5zo455xdjv33yqu14j1qc))/mileg.aspx?page=CommitteeBillRecordSearch&session=2007-2008&CommitteeName=NATURAL%20RESOURCES%20AND%20ENVIRONM ENTAL%20AFFAIRS&chamber=senate

The Bill is currently in the Senate Committee on Natural Resource and Environmental Affairs and the Senate is adjourned until the 13th.;) If/when it's approved by committee it will move to the Senate for a vote.

[Riva]

[quote=2PawsRiver;2220713]Have heard that as well. Thanks to those who submitted letters and sent faxes in hopes of preserving a bit of hunting ethics.
/quote]

So, as long as we're on the subject of "ethics", I present to you, each and every caring, concerned and, most-importantly, "thinking" citizen of the State of Michigan, here's the absolute "crown jewel" of ethical and behavior policy to ever darken the doorway of The Great Lake State, specifically:

The Michigan Bow Hunters Association Position Statement regarding proposed crossbow regulation changes and laser sight usage
The Michigan Bow Hunters Association does not support using age as a condition for determining crossbow eligibility. Eligibility should be determined by need on a case by case basis.
MBH supports the current standard for determining crossbow permit eligibility for physically challenged hunters. However we are opposed to lowering the level of permanent disability from 80% to 60%. Our Association acknowledges that the current evaluation process for crossbow permit applicants is expensive and frequently abused.
We therefore support removal of the physician from the evaluation process as a means of addressing both issues. Also, we would be very supportive of a more vigorous scrutiny of crossbow permit applications by the DNR Law division to further address the abuse issue. In addition, there are other issues with the crossbow permit system not mentioned in the proposal. We look forward to working with the NRC to resolve these concerns.


Now, them there, are some bone fide "ethics".:sad::sad::sad:

[Terry Williams]

[quote=2PawsRiver;2220713]Have heard that as well. Thanks to those who submitted letters and sent faxes in hopes of preserving a bit of hunting ethics.
/quote]

So, as long as we're on the subject of "ethics", I present to you, each and every caring, concerned and, most-importantly, "thinking" citizen of the State of Michigan, here's the absolute "crown jewel" of ethical and behavior policy to ever darken the doorway of The Great Lake State, specifically:

The Michigan Bow Hunters Association Position Statement regarding proposed crossbow regulation changes and laser sight usage
The Michigan Bow Hunters Association does not support using age as a condition for determining crossbow eligibility. Eligibility should be determined by need on a case by case basis.
MBH supports the current standard for determining crossbow permit eligibility for physically challenged hunters. However we are opposed to lowering the level of permanent disability from 80% to 60%. Our Association acknowledges that the current evaluation process for crossbow permit applicants is expensive and frequently abused.
We therefore support removal of the physician from the evaluation process as a means of addressing both issues. Also, we would be very supportive of a more vigorous scrutiny of crossbow permit applications by the DNR Law division to further address the abuse issue. In addition, there are other issues with the crossbow permit system not mentioned in the proposal. We look forward to working with the NRC to resolve these concerns.


Now, them there, are some bone fide "ethics".:sad::sad::sad:









Why don't you just use that as your signature line as you post it about every other day.

[Riva]

[quote=Riva;2220864]


Why don't you just use that as your signature line as you post it about every other day.


Terry,

At then end of the day, finally, there are simply no trees for you guys to hind behind any longer. The "truth" is the "truth".

These words are "YOUR" words, not ours...The Michigan Bow Hunters Association Position Statement regarding proposed crossbow regulation changes and laser sight usage
The Michigan Bow Hunters Association does not support using age as a condition for determining crossbow eligibility. Eligibility should be determined by need on a case by case basis.
MBH supports the current standard for determining crossbow permit eligibility for physically challenged hunters. However we are opposed to lowering the level of permanent disability from 80% to 60%. Our Association acknowledges that the current evaluation process for crossbow permit applicants is expensive and frequently abused.
We therefore support removal of the physician from the evaluation process as a means of addressing both issues. Also, we would be very supportive of a more vigorous scrutiny of crossbow permit applications by the DNR Law division to further address the abuse issue. In addition, there are other issues with the crossbow permit system not mentioned in the proposal. We look forward to working with the NRC to resolve these concerns.

[Terry Williams]

We are well aware of "our" words as they appear on "our" website, please feel free to visit often.

[Riva]

We are well aware of "our" words as they appear on "our" website, please feel free to visit often.

"If" that is the case and, these are indeed you organization's words, I simply ask you, Mr. Williams, here and now, to (1) explain them and, (2) defend them.

Again, Mr. Williams, they are YOUR words, not ours. Please... elaborate and/or expand on this forum because, I have a deep feelings, that many Michigan-Sportsman members are patently not interested in your invitation to visit your Internet website because, they will end up traveling amongst the Philistines. ;);)

Riva

[Terry Williams]

I think I need not explain. You post them repeatedly, you insinuate their is some sinister meaning in them, There is not.

You maybe right as well as the "members" that choose not to visit our website have you as a liaison and interpretor.

I am not here to defend words, but bow hunting, and still stand against full intrusion.

[Munsterlndr]

I think I need not explain. You post them repeatedly, you insinuate their is some sinister meaning in them, There is not.

Whether the meaning is sinister is up to others to decide. it certainly contradicts the image that many of your members have repeatedly tried to project, however, implying that MBH is the disabled hunters best friend. An organization that would deny a hunter who has a 79% disability the right to hunt with a weapon that accomodates that disability, certainly is no friend of the vast majority of those with disabilitites. Facts are facts.

[Riva]

I think I need not explain. You post them repeatedly, you insinuate their is some sinister meaning in them, There is not.

You maybe right as well as the "members" that choose not to visit our website have you as a liaison and interpretor.

I am not here to defend words, but bow hunting, and still stand against full intrusion.

Terry,

I am sorry, however; these are the words of YOUR organization. YOUR organization has made a very public policy statement that states you are opposed to expanding the rights of the disabled. We could care less what your position is surrounding full inclusion (above).That is an entirely different matter.

Terry, once and for all, you guys simply have got to come clean and, state what you guys mean by the following. The Michigan Bow Hunters Association Position Statement regarding proposed crossbow regulation changes and laser sight usage
The Michigan Bow Hunters Association does not support using age as a condition for determining crossbow eligibility. Eligibility should be determined by need on a case by case basis.
MBH supports the current standard for determining crossbow permit eligibility for physically challenged hunters. However we are opposed to lowering the level of permanent disability from 80% to 60%. Our Association acknowledges that the current evaluation process for crossbow permit applicants is expensive and frequently abused.
We therefore support removal of the physician from the evaluation process as a means of addressing both issues. Also, we would be very supportive of a more vigorous scrutiny of crossbow permit applications by the DNR Law division to further address the abuse issue. In addition, there are other issues with the crossbow permit system not mentioned in the proposal. We look forward to working with the NRC to resolve these concerns.

Terry, you can't jump on the anti "full inclusion bandwagon" unless/until you
explain first, why you want disabled persons excluded as well.


I (we) will be happy to debate the "full inclusion" agenda with you in its entirety,but first, you have to explain the MBH position on disabled-person's rights. Unless and until that occurs, I am sorry, you are not a legitimate voice for anything.


And, by the way, it is full "inclusion" versus full "intrusion". A Freudian slip that incidentally, speaks volumes to the true colors of selfishness and exclusion that MBH raises its flag upon each and every day. Sorry, Terry, we aint saluting!:sad:

[Terry Williams]

Whether the meaning is sinister is up to others to decide. it certainly contradicts the image that many of your members have repeatedly tried to project, however, implying that MBH is the disabled hunters best friend. An organization that would deny a hunter who has a 79% disability the right to hunt with a weapon that accomodates that disability, certainly is no friend of the vast majority of those with disabilitites. Facts are facts.


You know that is a slippery slope. If if were 60%, you'd be posting about our denying a guy at 59%. Other than full intrusion what level would you set as acceptable?

[michigandeerslayer]

I think the point people are trying to make is there should be no restrictions there is no need for it and by having even 1% you are discriminating against someone. These day's that is not a good thing

So look at it how you will, but it is unfair to anyone that wants to use one in archery season

[Terry Williams]

Terry,

I am sorry, however; these are the words of YOUR organization. YOUR organization has made a very public policy statement that states you are opposed to expanding the rights of the disabled. We could care less what your position is surrounding full inclusion (above).That is an entirely different matter.

Terry, once and for all, you guys simply have got to come clean and, state what you guys mean by the following. The Michigan Bow Hunters Association Position Statement regarding proposed crossbow regulation changes and laser sight usage
The Michigan Bow Hunters Association does not support using age as a condition for determining crossbow eligibility. Eligibility should be determined by need on a case by case basis.
MBH supports the current standard for determining crossbow permit eligibility for physically challenged hunters. However we are opposed to lowering the level of permanent disability from 80% to 60%. Our Association acknowledges that the current evaluation process for crossbow permit applicants is expensive and frequently abused.
We therefore support removal of the physician from the evaluation process as a means of addressing both issues. Also, we would be very supportive of a more vigorous scrutiny of crossbow permit applications by the DNR Law division to further address the abuse issue. In addition, there are other issues with the crossbow permit system not mentioned in the proposal. We look forward to working with the NRC to resolve these concerns.

Terry, you can't jump on the anti "full inclusion bandwagon" unless/until you
explain first, why you want disabled persons excluded as well.


I (we) will be happy to debate the "full inclusion" agenda with you in its entirety,but first, you have to explain the MBH position on disabled-person's rights. Unless and until that occurs, I am sorry, you are not a legitimate voice for anything.


And, by the way, it is full "inclusion" versus full "intrusion". A Freudian slip that incidentally, speaks volumes to the true colors of selfishness and exclusion that MBH raises its flag upon each and every day. Sorry, Terry, we aint saluting!:sad:



No need to salute, just stand at attention:D. So what is not clear about our position. You of all people should fully understand it, I feel assured in reading your posts that you have a much clearer and keener ability to use the english language than myself and many others on this site.

I will not be drawn into your debate. This battle will not be settled here by you or me.

This standard is going to be changed by the NRC crossbow committee, but you knew that already didn't you?

[Terry Williams]

I think the point people are trying to make is there should be no restrictions there is no need for it and by having even 1% you are discriminating against someone. These day's that is not a good thing

So look at it how you will, but it is unfair to anyone that wants to use one in archery season

So its really not about 80% is it? Short of us supporting full intrusion, we're the bad guys.

[michigandeerslayer]

So its really not about 80% is it? Short of us supporting full intrusion, we're the bad guys.full intrusion??

That would only apply if I was trespassing on private property with a crossbow during archery season

Read it how you will but your group is bias and it is in black and white on your web site

[Terry Williams]

full intrusion??

That would only apply if I was trespassing on private property with a crossbow during archery season

Read it how you will but your group is bias and it is in black and white on your web site


Don't forget too include the State of Michigan

[michigandeerslayer]

Don't forget too include the State of Michigan

Well they have a chance to make it right and if they don't it will show they are bias just as much as your group

You should be happy that more people can enjoy the wood's

[2PawsRiver]

Guess you missed the memo about peace breaking out and not insulting other forum members. The implication that someone who uses a crossbow is somehow unethical certainly seems like a slap in the face to those members who are interested in hunting with a crossbow, for whatever reason.

I didn't insult anybody. I think maybe you're a little overly sensitive.......maybe deep down you feel a little guilty;)

[Terry Williams]

Well they have a chance to make it right and if they don't it will show they are bias just as much as your group

You should be happy that more people can enjoy the wood's


Maybe I can get a permit to park in the "handicap" spots at the mall, since I don't "feel" like walking so far.

[Riva]

You know that is a slippery slope. If if were 60%, you'd be posting about our denying a guy at 59%. Other than full intrusion what level would you set as acceptable?

The first telling words in your response,Terry, are the words "our denying". terry, get it in you head, once and for all, the days of you guys "denying" anything are long gone. You have had 60 years to deny, to deny, to deny. We'll, let me tell ya, the "our denying" days are soon coming to an end. Sorry, but MBH is an old cat, that pisses on the good furniture, gives the family no enjoyment or warmth and, needs to be puts to sleep.

I can tell you precisely what level of disability that we would accept as acceptable. ready....?

Here it is...

0% (as in zero, nullum, nada zero, zilch)

OK, two deep breaths...heres's what it means. There should be absolutely NO (0%) criteria other than for one to obtain and be able to produce (upon request) a letter from one's own personal physician that, in his/her professional opinion, you (the applicant) have a disability, either permanent or temporary, to the degree of severity that, it render you unable to pull and/or hold a long-, or compound bow. That is "it"!!!:)

See, no more 80%, no more 73.3%, no more 34.7%. And, best of all, no more of "our denying" from your sorry lot!:sad:

[michigandeerslayer]

Maybe I can get a permit to park in the "handicap" spots at the mall, since I don't "feel" like walking so far.and this is a comparison how?

They both are weapons used for the taking of game with a arrow and broad head

sure there different in some ways but all and all they are the same "kind" of weapon

[Terry Williams]

The first telling words in your response,Terry, are he word "our denying". Get it in you head, once and for all, the day of you guys "denying" anything are long gone. You have had 60 years to deny, to deny, to deny. We'll, let me tell ya, the "our denying" days are soon coming to an end. Sorry, but MBH is an old cat, that pisses on the good furniture, gives the family no enjoyment or warmth and, needs to be puts to sleep.

I can tell you precisely what level of disability that we would accept as acceptable. ready....?

Here it is...

0% (as in zero, nullum, nada zero, zilch)

OK, two deep breaths...heres's what it means. There should be absolutely NO (0%) criteria other than for one to obtain and be able to produce (upon request) a letter from one's own personal physician that, in his/her professional opinion, you (the applicant) have a disability, either permanent or temporary, to the degree of severity that, it render you unable to pull and/or hold a long-, or compound bow. That is "it"!!!:)

See, no more 80%, no more 73.3%, no more 34.7%. And, best of all, no more of "our denying" from you guys!:sad:

See thats were you get it wrong we don't deny anyone. We only helped write a standard. Their doctor denies or approves them.

Our defense of bow hunting will never cease.

I would also venture to say in reference to you calling us an old cat, we've gotten rid of alot of rats like you our in 62 year history.

[Riva]

Maybe I can get a permit to park in the "handicap" spots at the mall, since I don't "feel" like walking so far.

Terry, you just don't understand..It has nothing to do with "feeling" that I don't want to walk so far. Rather, it is because I "can't" walk so far.

Is there any part of that that sinks in?

Too bad. So sad!:sad:

[2PawsRiver]

Maybe I can get a permit to park in the "handicap" spots at the mall, since I don't "feel" like walking so far.

Excellent analagy.

Terry, you just don't understand..It has nothing to do with "feeling" that I don't want to walk so far. Rather, it is because I "can't" walk so far.

Is there any part of that that sinks in?

Too bad. So sad!

While there may be problems, full inclusion is not the answer.

I hear many references to hunters being denied. There have been many posts and I may have missed it, but is there anybody that is not able to hunt with a bow and has been denied the opportunity to hunt with a crossbow.

[Riva]

See thats were you get it wrong we don't deny anyone. We only helped write a standard. Their doctor denies or approves them.

Our defense of bow hunting will never cease.

I would also venture to say in reference to you calling us an old cat, we've gotten rid of alot of rats like you on in 62 year history.

OK, Terry, we are in violent agreement. I agree; you guys wrote the standards. Here they are...
The Michigan Bow Hunters Association Position Statement regarding propose crossbow regulation changes and laser sight usage
The Michigan Bow Hunters Association does not support using age as a condition for determining crossbow eligibility. Eligibility should be determined by need on a case by case basis.
MBH supports the current standard for determining crossbow permit eligibility for physically challenged hunters. However we are opposed to lowering the level of permanent disability from 80% to 60%. Our Association acknowledges that the current evaluation process for crossbow permit applicants is expensive and frequently abused.
We therefore support removal of the physician from the evaluation process as a means of addressing both issues. Also, we would be very supportive of a more vigorous scrutiny of crossbow permit applications by the DNR Law division to further address the abuse issue. In addition, there are other issues with the crossbow permit system not mentioned in the proposal. We look forward to working with the NRC to resolve these concerns.

If your defense will never cease, it will, nevertheless die of old age. Just a guess, on my part, OK:D

Finally, to your quote: "I would also venture to say in reference to you calling us an old cat, we've gotten rid of a lot of rats like you on in 62 year history."

I have absolutely no doubt that the above is a 100% true statement!:sad:

[olliek]

"See thats were you get it wrong we don't deny anyone. We only helped write a standard. Their doctor denies or approves them."

"We therefore support removal of the physician from the evaluation process as a means of addressing both issues."

Mr. Williams, the first quote is yours. The second quote is from the position statement of the MBH.
Which way do YOU want it??

My Dr. would gladly sign an evaluation that I am unable to pull and hold a long bow or a compound bow but I would not qualify for an 80% disablity that is confined to my shoulder-elbow-ect.

I`m 68 and on my last years, so all I would like is to hunt my 85 acres in the warm October sunshine while I still can.

I assure you and all my neighbors that I will disturb no one and will not take anyone elses buck.---Dave.

[Munsterlndr]

I didn't insult anybody. I think maybe you're a little overly sensitive.......maybe deep down you feel a little guilty;)

You imply that other hunters are unethical simply for their choice of weapons and in other posts you have stated that those who use a crossbow are lazy. Whether you intended them to be or not, both are insulting characterizations that you are making and whats somewhat baffling is that you are making these insulting remarks about hundreds of thousands of hunters who you have never met and without having any way of assessing their character. You can laugh it off but be aware that your gross generalizations are insulting to other sportsmen.

[Terry Williams]

"See thats were you get it wrong we don't deny anyone. We only helped write a standard. Their doctor denies or approves them."

"We therefore support removal of the physician from the evaluation process as a means of addressing both issues."

Mr. Williams, the first quote is yours. The second quote is from the position statement of the MBH.
Which way do YOU want it??

My Dr. would gladly sign an evaluation that I am unable to pull and hold a long bow or a compound bow but I would not qualify for an 80% disablity that is confined to my shoulder-elbow-ect.

I`m 68 and on my last years, so all I would like is to hunt my 85 acres in the warm October sunshine while I still can.

I assure you and all my neighbors that I will disturb no one and will not take anyone elses buck.---Dave.

Dave, the NRC crossbow committee has a new process in place which should make obtaining a permit easy for almost everyone that wants one.

[Michihunter]

Dave, the NRC crossbow committee has a new process in place which should make obtaining a permit easy for almost everyone that wants one.I keep hearing about this NRC committee and a "new" process. Care to share a link or something that can verify this? I searched alll over for something to support that statement and found nothing. The HB is in the Senate Committee on Natural Resources and Environmental Affairs so I'm assuming you're saying there's something else going on with the NRC in addition to that of the Senate Committe, correct?

[2PawsRiver]

Take a midol;)

[Terry Williams]

I keep hearing about this NRC committee and a "new" process. Care to share a link or something that can verify this? I searched alll over for something to support that statement and found nothing. The HB is in the Senate Committee on Natural Resources and Environmental Affairs so I'm assuming you're saying there's something else going on with the NRC in addition to that of the Senate Committe, correct?


I'm a little surprised that our liaison officer hasn't posted this yet.


Click here: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/14-08_Crossbow_INFO_6.5.08_237438_7.pdf

[Big K]

Excellent analagy.



While there may be problems, full inclusion is not the answer.

I hear many references to hunters being denied. There have been many posts and I may have missed it, but is there anybody that is not able to hunt with a bow and has been denied the opportunity to hunt with a crossbow.

I try to stay out of these types of threads because too many people take comments too personal and feelings get hurt. However, after reading this statement, I feel I should chime in.

My father is 64 years old. He has had 7 hip surgeries, heart surgery, and is a cancer survivor. Yet he still gets denied a cross-bow permit. You may think that hip surgeries have nothing to do with it, but I beg to differ. There are many times he can't go out during rifle season because it's just too cold and the cooler to freezing temps really bother his hips. It would be nice if he could go out during bow season to hunt. And no...he cannot pull a bow back.

So for my father's hope, I would like to see the bill pass.

[skulldugary]

Seems to a lot of straw grasping going on by the opposition and I'll bet that the MBH's organization would gladly take the crossbow hunters dues monies once the Bill is made law....or would they be excluded because of thier weapon of choise.?

[Terry Williams]

Click here: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/14-08_Crossbow_INFO_6.5.08_237438_7.pdf


This one should work.....:yikes:I also corrected the other link as well.

[Michihunter]

Click here: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/14-08_Crossbow_INFO_6.5.08_237438_7.pdf


This one should work.....:yikes:
So it appears all that we're waiting on is a signature huh? Aug 14th?

From what I can garner from that is that all it will take is a MD to say you can't never use a compound bow due to a disability and that will be sufficient to gain a permit. No percentage attached:). Agree?

Sounds like some people are starting to pull their heads out of their shorts. Imagine that?:lol::lol:

[Terry Williams]

Somebody somewhere won't like it, I'm sure. Once its accepted we will change our position statement, WWRD? What Will Riva Do?

[Michihunter]

Somebody somewhere won't like it, I'm sure. Once its accepted we will change our position statement, WWRD? What Will Riva Do?

Terry- With all due respect, that's EXTREMELY hypocritical. You change positions on an issue AFTER it is put into the regulations? I won't go to much on the offensive here but even you can see the problems with that approach. Right? :confused:

[2PawsRiver]

My father is 64 years old. He has had 7 hip surgeries, heart surgery, and is a cancer survivor. Yet he still gets denied a cross-bow permit. You may think that hip surgeries have nothing to do with it, but I beg to differ. There are many times he can't go out during rifle season because it's just too cold and the cooler to freezing temps really bother his hips. It would be nice if he could go out during bow season to hunt. And no...he cannot pull a bow back.

First and foremost, congratulations to your Dad for beating Cancer and dealing with a host of medical issues. I understand the effect of the cold on him as I used to hunt with an older gentleman who had hip surgery. My only question is why can't he pull a bow back. With todays bows 45 pounds is plenty and should be a weight that he should be able to handle.

Again congrats and I hope his health improves.

[Terry Williams]

Terry- With all due respect, that's EXTREMELY hypocritical. You change positions on an issue AFTER it is put into the regulations? I won't go to much on the offensive here but even you can see the problems with that approach. Right? :confused:


We have been working with the NRC crossbow committee on this current regulation long before the crossbow bill passed in the house. So no I don't see it as hypocritical.

We should actually have our position statement changed in the next couple of days I'm told.

[J Eberhart]

Check out how uninvlolved the crossbow companies are:

The letter at the bottom of this page is a draft from the Ten-Point newsletter.

I recieved it from one of the sporting goods stores I shop in. FYI, every single archery pro shop I have spoken with is scared sh--less over this bill in its current form allowing full inclusion, and I have spoken to over 15 shop owners. They are all in favor (and me) of altering the bill to allow 60 years old and older across the counter and altering the current law from 80% to 60% disability.

I am very aware that this blog (forum) is extremely pro crossbow and they have argued many bowhunters off the site (I know of many). With that being said, I have been doing some homework and found some very interesting information from several Ohio dealers. From a small business (archery only pro shop) perspective, many will go out of business within the next 3 years if full inclusion is allowed, it happened in Ohio.

Crossbows require absolutely no customer service as bows do (draw length, poundage, string loops, proper axle to axle for the height of the customer, proper rest, arrows cut, etc.). Many crossbows come with scopes and are sighted in when you take them out of the box, nothing else needed. Crossbows can and will be purchased wherever they are the least expensive, which is always at a mass merchant.

Every single store I spoke to in Ohio sold 60% crossbows to compounds and told me that it is more of a crossbow season than a bow season with well over 50% of the hunters in the field using crossbows. Is that what we really want is a crossbow season. Every Ohio store I spoke to sells guns and fishing equipment as well.

I spoke with a distributor that sold archery accessories to many archery pro shops in Ohio before crossbows were legal and now he sells about nothing.


Here is a letter from a large Michigan dealer to Ten-Point in reference to them continuing to try and sell him crossbows. Many small businesses will definitely go under if this bill is allowed to pass in its current form.


Randy-
As a crossbow dealer, I am not against seeing making it easier for disabled people or senior citizens hunt with crossbows during the archery season because of their reduced physical limitations. With the physical disabilities that many of these groups have, hunting with a crossbow is the only way they can hunt during the archery season.

In regards to healthy able bodied hunters using crossbows, I am against it. The crossbow is not the same weapon, and doesn't require the same skills to shoot. It doesn't require the hunter to draw within a moment's notice, to hold the weight of the string while an animal stops behind a tree to graze, or the form and technique required to shoot an arrow properly because of an odd position or stance. It is not the same sport! Nor do they require the same "Pro-Shop" set-up, tuning, and accessories. With archery equipment, I am continually selling customers "new" late great items to help them get better and better shooting their bows. It is similar to the golf industry--every one looking for that magic putter or magic driver to take their game up a notch. With crossbows, you sell them once, and they return occassionally to buy a new string, wax, or bolts--woohooo! That will keep me in business

We don't allow crossbow shooters to show up at an IBO shoot or an NFAA shoot and compete against archers. That is because it is as easy to shoot as a rifle is, especially when configured with a red dot scope or a 4X magnification, light gathering scope. It took me years to get to the caliber of shooter I am with a bow. However, with a sighted in crossbow, I can hit a pingpong ball nearly every time at 20 yards off-hand within a few miniutes of sighting in.

Please keep your business interests out of our political venues. It is no wonder you are trying to pass legislation in the two largest bowhunting states. Listen to the bowhunting groups, they have a voice for a reason.


A draft from Ten-Point newsletter

Below is a draft of a letter that you can use to voice your support, simply copy and paste it into your e-mail program and fill in the name of your representative and then add your name and contact information or if you prefer simply send them an E-mail voicing support for HB 5741 with your name and address attached so that they can verify that you are a constituent.

The anti-crossbow forces are already rallying opposition to this bill so if you are in support it’s vital that you engage in the process and voice your support to your Representative.




Dear Representative ______________________

I am writing to urge your support of a bill to amend the crossbow permit application process (HB 5741) Introduced by Representative Sheltrown. I would also strongly urge you to support a revised version of this bill which would eliminate the permitting process and allow the full and unrestricted use of crossbows during any of Michigan’s hunting seasons that currently allow the use of a bow as a legal weapon.

The current application process for obtaining a crossbow permit is extremely arbitrary and places an undue hardship on individuals who are simply seeking to increase their recreational opportunities and enjoy the pursuit of hunting during archery seasons. There is clear and compelling evidence, from a number of other states, that the expansion of the use of crossbows offers significant positive benefits for the State of Michigan, both from a fiscal standpoint and from a resource management standpoint.

For some time, Michigan has been steadily losing hunters and the related revenue that hunting creates. In the last decade, bow hunter numbers have dropped by 22% or over 80,000 hunters. The DNR depends on hunters to accomplish their management goals and declining numbers of hunters complicates this task. Fewer hunters also reduce the amount of revenue generated for the State and for the DNR. Allowing the unrestricted use of crossbows during archery seasons will help to reverse the trend of declining hunter numbers, with a number of ancillary benefits and without any negative impact on the resource.

As has been demonstrated in many other states, the expansion of crossbow use in archery season presents Michigan with the opportunity to increase hunter participation, increase opportunity and contribute to the responsible management of one of Michigan's most important public resources. I strongly urge you to support the amended version of House Bill 5471 and allow Michigan’s hunters a choice when choosing which type of bow to use during Michigan’s archery seasons.

Sincerely yours,

Your name
Address
City, State, Zip

----I hope everyone reading this biased letter that is against unrestricted crossbow use will alter this letter against healthy hunters using crossbows and send it to their representative.

I also went to Archerytalk.com and it is very apparent that all the moderators are on the crossbow band wagon.

[Michihunter]

We have been working with the NRC crossbow committee on this current regulation long before the crossbow bill passed in the house. So no I don't see it as hypocritical.

We should actually have our position statement changed in the next couple of days I'm told.
How do you explain the MBH position statement as it currently stands then? If in fact you were "working" with the NRC and you are implying that the change was in effect brought about with your help, can you say that this isn't a contradiction? You state one thing and then help to bring about another. Just what exactly do you guys stand for?:confused:

[Michihunter]

Check out how uninvlolved the crossbow companies are:

The letter at the bottom of this page is a draft from the Ten-Point newsletter.

I recieved it from one of the sporting goods stores I shop in. FYI, every single archery pro shop I have spoken with is scared sh--less over this bill in its current form allowing full inclusion, and I have spoken to over 15 shop owners. They are all in favor (and me) of altering the bill to allow 60 years old and older across the counter and altering the current law from 80% to 60% disability.

I am very aware that this blog (forum) is extremely pro crossbow and they have argued many bowhunters off the site (I know of many). With that being said, I have been doing some homework and found some very interesting information from several Ohio dealers. From a small business (archery only pro shop) perspective, many will go out of business within the next 3 years if full inclusion is allowed, it happened in Ohio.

Crossbows require absolutely no customer service as bows do (draw length, poundage, string loops, proper axle to axle for the height of the customer, proper rest, arrows cut, etc.). Many crossbows come with scopes and are sighted in when you take them out of the box, nothing else needed. Crossbows can and will be purchased wherever they are the least expensive, which is always at a mass merchant.

Every single store I spoke to in Ohio sold 60% crossbows to compounds and told me that it is more of a crossbow season than a bow season with well over 50% of the hunters in the field using crossbows. Is that what we really want is a crossbow season. Every Ohio store I spoke to sells guns and fishing equipment as well.

I spoke with a distributor that sold archery accessories to many archery pro shops in Ohio before crossbows were legal and now he sells about nothing.


Here is a letter from a large Michigan dealer to Ten-Point in reference to them continuing to try and sell him crossbows. Many small businesses will definitely go under if this bill is allowed to pass in its current form.


Randy-
As a crossbow dealer, I am not against seeing making it easier for disabled people or senior citizens hunt with crossbows during the archery season because of their reduced physical limitations. With the physical disabilities that many of these groups have, hunting with a crossbow is the only way they can hunt during the archery season.

In regards to healthy able bodied hunters using crossbows, I am against it. The crossbow is not the same weapon, and doesn't require the same skills to shoot. It doesn't require the hunter to draw within a moment's notice, to hold the weight of the string while an animal stops behind a tree to graze, or the form and technique required to shoot an arrow properly because of an odd position or stance. It is not the same sport! Nor do they require the same "Pro-Shop" set-up, tuning, and accessories. With archery equipment, I am continually selling customers "new" late great items to help them get better and better shooting their bows. It is similar to the golf industry--every one looking for that magic putter or magic driver to take their game up a notch. With crossbows, you sell them once, and they return occassionally to buy a new string, wax, or bolts--woohooo! That will keep me in business

We don't allow crossbow shooters to show up at an IBO shoot or an NFAA shoot and compete against archers. That is because it is as easy to shoot as a rifle is, especially when configured with a red dot scope or a 4X magnification, light gathering scope. It took me years to get to the caliber of shooter I am with a bow. However, with a sighted in crossbow, I can hit a pingpong ball nearly every time at 20 yards off-hand within a few miniutes of sighting in.

Please keep your business interests out of our political venues. It is no wonder you are trying to pass legislation in the two largest bowhunting states. Listen to the bowhunting groups, they have a voice for a reason.


A draft from Ten-Point newsletter

Below is a draft of a letter that you can use to voice your support, simply copy and paste it into your e-mail program and fill in the name of your representative and then add your name and contact information or if you prefer simply send them an E-mail voicing support for HB 5741 with your name and address attached so that they can verify that you are a constituent.

The anti-crossbow forces are already rallying opposition to this bill so if you are in support it’s vital that you engage in the process and voice your support to your Representative.




Dear Representative ______________________

I am writing to urge your support of a bill to amend the crossbow permit application process (HB 5741) Introduced by Representative Sheltrown. I would also strongly urge you to support a revised version of this bill which would eliminate the permitting process and allow the full and unrestricted use of crossbows during any of Michigan’s hunting seasons that currently allow the use of a bow as a legal weapon.

The current application process for obtaining a crossbow permit is extremely arbitrary and places an undue hardship on individuals who are simply seeking to increase their recreational opportunities and enjoy the pursuit of hunting during archery seasons. There is clear and compelling evidence, from a number of other states, that the expansion of the use of crossbows offers significant positive benefits for the State of Michigan, both from a fiscal standpoint and from a resource management standpoint.

For some time, Michigan has been steadily losing hunters and the related revenue that hunting creates. In the last decade, bow hunter numbers have dropped by 22% or over 80,000 hunters. The DNR depends on hunters to accomplish their management goals and declining numbers of hunters complicates this task. Fewer hunters also reduce the amount of revenue generated for the State and for the DNR. Allowing the unrestricted use of crossbows during archery seasons will help to reverse the trend of declining hunter numbers, with a number of ancillary benefits and without any negative impact on the resource.

As has been demonstrated in many other states, the expansion of crossbow use in archery season presents Michigan with the opportunity to increase hunter participation, increase opportunity and contribute to the responsible management of one of Michigan's most important public resources. I strongly urge you to support the amended version of House Bill 5471 and allow Michigan’s hunters a choice when choosing which type of bow to use during Michigan’s archery seasons.

Sincerely yours,

Your name
Address
City, State, Zip

----I hope everyone reading this biased letter that is against unrestricted crossbow use will alter this letter against healthy hunters using crossbows and send it to their representative.

I also went to Archerytalk.com and it is very apparent that all the moderators are on the crossbow band wagon.

John- You continually talk about "all the mfg's" and you produce one letter from one mfg which is, you claim, biased. As opposed to your op/ed piece in WnW?:lol:. Then you say "all the proshops (15 of them?)" and produce none for verification:rolleyes:. Same with members "run off" from this forum:rolleyes:. If you want to come off with at least a minimal amount of credibility, please offer us the ability to verify your contentions. After your statement regarding the mfg's at the NRC meeting, your credibility is certainly questionable.

[Terry Williams]

How do you explain the MBH position statement as it currently stands then? If in fact you were "working" with the NRC and you are implying that the change was in effect brought about with your help, can you say that this isn't a contradiction? You state one thing and then help to bring about another. Just what exactly do you guys stand for?:confused:

No it isn't a contradiction, its an evolution, we, MBH realized that the standard may have in fact excluded many people and we have been moving in this direction for some time. I'm sure we will have our naysayers.

[Michihunter]

No it isn't a contradiction, its an evolution, we, MBH realized that the standard may have in fact excluded many people and we have been moving in this direction for some time. I'm sure we will have our naysayers.
This "evolution" took place overnight huh?:lol::lol: Sorry Terry but I'm having a hard time swallowing that pill.;)

[Riva]

John- You continually talk about "all the mfg's" and you produce one letter from one mfg which is, you claim, biased. As opposed to your op/ed piece in WnW?:lol:. Then you say "all the proshops (15 of them?)" and produce none for verification:rolleyes:. Same with members "run off" from this forum:rolleyes:. If you want to come off with at least a minimal amount of credibility, please offer us the ability to verify your contentions. After your statement regarding the mfg's at the NRC meeting, your credibility is certainly questionable.

Frankly, John, after your last comments here about you being "absolutely certain" that three of the people who spoke to the House DNR committee in June as being employees of the crossbow industry, the thinking person has to question your credibility---even an author and the contents and exploits contained in your books.

John, I was in that room in June and, I know every person who spoke to the committee. One is from the crossbow industry. The other sells magazines and memberships for crossbow advocates. The rest are just plain old private citizens promoting a cause. There is not a morsel of truth in what you said, but you somehow don't feel that you need to retract it.

John, your words are full of generalizations, unsubstantiated facts and innuendo and now, patent untruths. Going forward, I would recommend to everybody when reading your voluminous commentary hereabouts, that they simply consider the source and base their opinions accordingly.

BTW...the wager still stands.:rolleyes:

[bradymsu]

Terry, I'm very pleased to see the ability of MBH to evolve. Embracing change will help the organization grow and continue its long proud legacy. I've heard reports that MBH has slipped below 1,000 (current dues paid)members out of the roughly 300,000 bowhunters in Michigan. That's unfortunate. If the organization evolves to embrace full inclusion of crossbows following in the wake of HB 5741, it could double your members with the addition of crossbow users and other bowhunters who have been turned off by this infighting among hunters. My intent isn't to rub salt in anyone's wounds. I'm aware of some people's fears and concerns that full inclusion could double the number of hunters in October. Regardless, full inclusion of crossbows will happen. Let's work together to evolve to that reality and rebuild MBH and the ranks of deer hunters in Michigan.

[Riva]

Somebody somewhere won't like it, I'm sure. Once its accepted we will change our position statement, WWRD? What Will Riva Do?

I for one will rejoice if just one disabled person is able to participate as an equal during the archery season. That's one thing Riva will do.

Another thing Riva will do is look back and remember that MBH originally had a public position statement that was crystal clear that they do nor support changing the disability criteria from 80% to any percentage less.

And, another thing Riva will do is look upon the same organization, when having been soundly rebuked by NRC crossbow sub-committee, now attempt to take credit for its implementation. That, Terry, is a metamorphosis of Biblical proportions.:rolleyes:

At the end of the day, it's not important what Riva does. What's important that people become aware of this new criteria and once enacted, get out there and participate in archery sports and enjoy Michigan’s great out-of doors when the temperatures are warm, the leaves are in their fullest color and our collective appreciation for our fabulous resource be affirmed with each and every Michigan sunrise and each and every Michigan sunset. That's what's important.:)

[J Eberhart]

Riva

I only read your first sentence in reply to me stating that three people from the crossbow industry were at at least one of the meetings. I stand corrected; now I know there were at least 4 because another rep said he was there.

Keep in mind if a crossbow rep is against the crossbow bill in its current state (which the last rep is) his job is in jeapordy by speaking out against it.

When I mentioned that 3 crossbow people spoke at one of the meetings I was wrong, Chuck did all the talking and the others did not speak. They fessed up to not speaking after I read your reply quite a while back. Sorry, but I will still not give any names. But it is very obvious that the moderators on every archery forum I have visited are pro crossbow, wonder why it is unanamous, any ideas. Don't give me a bunch of its the right thing, because I can guarantee that if I went in any archery shop and asked 10 bowhunters what their opinions were, most would be against full inclusion.

Remember, I am not an MBH member and MBH speaks for a very minute number of Michigan bowhunters. Most every bowhunter I have spoken with over the past month are for age limitations for across the counter and 60% handicap permits, whereas MBH was against any deviations whatsoever.

[Riva]

Riva

I only read your first sentence in reply to me stating that three people from the crossbow industry were at at least one of the meetings. I stand corrected; now I know there were at least 4 because another rep said he was there.

Keep in mind if a crossbow rep is against the crossbow bill in its current state (which the last rep is) his job is in jeapordy by speaking out against it.

When I mentioned that 3 crossbow people spoke at one of the meetings I was wrong, Chuck did all the talking and the others did not speak. They fessed up to not speaking after I read your reply quite a while back. Sorry, but I will still not give any names. But it is very obvious that the moderators on every archery forum I have visited are pro crossbow, wonder why it is unanamous, any ideas. Don't give me a bunch of its the right thing, because I can guarantee that if I went in any archery shop and asked 10 bowhunters what their opinions were, most would be against full inclusion.

Remember, I am not an MBH member and MBH speaks for a very minute number of Michigan bowhunters. Most every bowhunter I have spoken with over the past month are for age limitations for across the counter and 60% handicap permits, whereas MBH was against any deviations whatsoever.

John,

Please tell me that you're not trying to connect the dots on this thing because there were crossbow reps in the AUDIENCE! :dizzy:

[Michihunter]

Riva

I only read your first sentence in reply to me stating that three people from the crossbow industry were at at least one of the meetings. I stand corrected; now I know there were at least 4 because another rep said he was there.

Keep in mind if a crossbow rep is against the crossbow bill in its current state (which the last rep is) his job is in jeapordy by speaking out against it.

When I mentioned that 3 crossbow people spoke at one of the meetings I was wrong, Chuck did all the talking and the others did not speak. They fessed up to not speaking after I read your reply quite a while back. Sorry, but I will still not give any names. But it is very obvious that the moderators on every archery forum I have visited are pro crossbow, wonder why it is unanamous, any ideas. Don't give me a bunch of its the right thing, because I can guarantee that if I went in any archery shop and asked 10 bowhunters what their opinions were, most would be against full inclusion.

Remember, I am not an MBH member and MBH speaks for a very minute number of Michigan bowhunters. Most every bowhunter I have spoken with over the past month are for age limitations for across the counter and 60% handicap permits, whereas MBH was against any deviations whatsoever.

Sheesh John. You expect us to take you at your word on things and yet you're still trying to imply that the crossbow reps were the ones there in force fighting for full inclusion. Your credibility is suffering here my friend. Especially when you offer no verification for any of your contentions. Name the 15 shops you spoke of. Name ONE member that was run off of this site because he was against the inclusion of crossbows. All we are asking for is a chance to verify your contentions. Nothing more, nothing less. Afterall, it was you that put your credibility up for question when you made false statements (in fact insisted that it was true) regarding the people speaking at that meeting. Now you say "Oooops, I meant 'audience members'?" :confused:

[Munsterlndr]

Wow, restricting hunter opportunity and freedom of choice regarding weapons as a means of forcing hunters to use bows that need constant tuning, solely to keep small archery pro-shops in business? You are complaining about crossbow manufacturers promoting a bill that would be good for their business, how exactly does that differ from archery shops lobbying against a bill that they feel would hurt their business? Selling crossbows to 50,000 new hunters would generate roughly $2.75 million in Pittman-Robinson funds for the DNR, exactly how much does bow tuning contribute to funding the DNR? I suppose that your archery shop buddies are also opposed to hunters purchasing recurves or long bows, since they require virtually no "tweaking" by a pro-shop after purchase. Maybe we should ban them so that hunters are forced to use compounds, just so your buddies can continue to rack up fees for servicing the bow after the sale. :rolleyes:

[bradymsu]

The minutes for the testimony hearing on the bill are available at: http://house.michigan.gov/SessionDocs/2007-2008/Minutes/tour061008.pdf. As the minutes indicate, 7 people spoke on behalf of the bill and 10 against. I went back and checked the testimony cards to see if there was anyone there indicating support for the bill but who did not wish to speak. There was not. While it could have been possible for other crossbow industry representatives to be in the room, they did not make their presence known to the committee members.

[Michihunter]

I'm still scratching my head over the "Mods and Forums" issue:confused:. What on earth could that indicate John asks? Well I'm assuming he thinks it's something sinister, although I can't imagine what that could be. For what it's worth, AT has quite a few more active members than MBH does, so if there's any implication that can be derived from that forum, could it be that the majority of archers seem to support the inclusion of the crossbow while a small organization such as MBH seems to misrepresent that majority?

[Terry Williams]

This "evolution" took place overnight huh?:lol::lol: Sorry Terry but I'm having a hard time swallowing that pill.;)

I've been saying that the process was going to get easier. This has been in the works for months. People believe what they want.

[Michihunter]

I've been saying that the process was going to get easier. This has been in the works for months. People believe what they want.I only believe what I see on your website Terry. ;)

[bradymsu]

Out of all the arguments against crossbows, the concept that we should not allow their full inclusion because they are less expensive for hunters to maintain has got to be among the most bizarre. Also, the concept the small pro-shops are going to go out of business if this bill passes with full inclusion would have to be based on the belief that their current customers (vertical bow users) are going to switch over in large numbers to crossbows. Yet, we're told that most of these hunters oppose crossbows. How do you justify that contradiction?