MUCC to target water bottles

[MOODMagazine]

For Immediate Release
Contact: Dennis Muchmore, MUCC Executive Director (517) 346-6455
Donna Stine, MUCC Deputy Director for Policy (517) 346-6487
Dave Nyberg, MUCC Resource Policy Specialist (517) 346-6462
MUCC LAUNCHES INITIATIVE TO EXPAND STATE'S BOTTLE BILL
Recycling empty water bottles is good for conservation and the economy
LANSING—The Michigan United Conservation Clubs (MUCC) today announced a major initiative to expand the state's 32-year-old Bottle Bill to include water and other non-carbonated beverage containers.
The 50,000-member, non-profit MUCC seeks to duplicate the 1976 grassroots campaign that made Michigan the national poster child for recycling beer and soda pop containers. Eleven other states have current or pending legislation for container-deposit recycling, and a growing number include bottled water. Last week, for example, New York's General Assembly voted to add non-carbonated containers to its required deposit list.
"It's time for Michigan to step back to the plate," said Dennis Muchmore, MUCC Executive Director. "Although our citizens now return 97 percent of the 5 and a half- billion bottles and cans for which they pay a deposit, they recycle only 20 percent of the bottled water containers because no deposit is required. Eighty percent of those empty containers end up in landfills or critical wildlife habitats. It's a terrible waste."
According to the Container Recycling Institute (CRI), in 2005 each Michigan resident bought an average of 338 bottles and cans of soda pop and 138 containers of water and other non-carbonated beverages. More than 1.1 billion of the latter were thrown away instead of being recycled.
National trend data from the CRI shows that within a few years, sales of non-carbonated drinks will exceed pop sales.
"We can, and must, do better," Muchmore added. "Adding a ten-cent deposit to bottled water creates a win-win situation for everyone."
How so? Recycling the containers reduces litter and saves money and energy while increasing the number of Michigan jobs. The annual energy savings alone for bottles and cans of pop and beer is equivalent to 450,000 barrels of oil, enough to fuel 150,000 cars for a month. There are economic advantages as well. According to the Michigan Recycling Coalition, annual sales of recycled commodities are nearly $2 billion. The industry employs more than 5,000 people who earn $137 million each year.
MUCC believes Michigan citizens are proud of their Bottle Bill and are ready to expand it. A 2003 survey revealed that 64 percent supported a deposit on water and other non-carbonated containers. Only 16 percent opposed expansion, and 19 percent were not sure.
"Voters" are even more supportive with 76 percent favoring the concept. Given such positive feedback, from Republicans, Democrats and Independents alike, why isn't Michigan's Bottle Bill all-inclusive now?
Muchmore says more than political will is involved. "Timing is everything," he said, "and because legislation to change the current law is suddenly pending, it makes sense to include bottled water in any new bill heading to the Governor's desk for signature."
Bills introduced in both the state house and senate seek to reduce the amount of fraudulent returns to merchants. MUCC supports the proposed changes, which were initiated by a coalition of the Michigan Beer & Wine Association, the Michigan Licensed Beverage Association, and the Michigan Grocers Association. But the state's largest conservation organization of hunters and anglers wants to take a bigger step forward.
"We simply want to amend the pending legislation to include bottled water and other non-carbonated containers," Muchmore explained. "Right now Michigan can reduce fraudulent deposit returns, increase recycling, supplement the economy with new jobs, and reduce litter in our lakes, streams and other critical wildlife habitats."
Reducing the amount of litter has long been an important issue for Michigan taxpayers, who pay $5.5 million per year to clean up water bottles and other trash from the state's roadways. The current Bottle Bill has shown that when containers carry a deposit, people pick them up for free.
"That's why we're asking Michigan citizens to contact their state senator and representative to make these changes now," Muchmore said. "We only have two weeks."
The legislation comes to a vote in late June. Changing the existing Bottle Bill requires a 75 percent super-majority in each chamber (29 of 38 senate votes, 83 of 110 house votes).
Muchmore said bottled water, sport drinks and other popular beverages weren't around in 1976. "They're here now and more are being consumed every year," he said. "Michigan citizens have an opportunity to do what's right, and time is of the essence."
###
Media Note: For Background Information and more details, go to www.mucc.org (http://www.mucc.org/).

[GIDEON]

It's about time

[loweboats]

No kidding...just think, now we will have bums wandering the edges of streams picking up floaters stuck in log jams. This can only be a good thing!

[USST164]

Remember the old election campaign slogan " It's the economy stupid "

What happened to the hunting , fishing . shooting sports organization known as MUCC . If the organization wants to be the environmental group do a spinoff and see how many flocked to an environmental organization.

It's NOT about highway billboards that MUCC smeared by calling them litter on a stick. Now another environmental crusade.


After Tom Washington passed away membership has truly tanked. From 140,000 members , to 42,000 in 13 years.

In the hunting fishing shooting sports world in this state in the last dozen years a lot more things have gone south , then improved .

Of the 100's of thousands of new participants in hunting, fishing and shooting sports in the last 10 years , why hasn't the membership grown. It's going the other way.

Without the membership numbers , they just become a shadow of they're former self.

Read the first line again , then read the last one.

It's Hunting , Fishing & Shooting Sports... S*****

[Ninja]

Of the 100's of thousands of new participants in hunting, fishing and shooting sports in the last 10 years , why hasn't the membership grown. It's going the other way.






Can you provide data showing the "100's of thousands of new participants...."???

[USST164]

Can you provide data showing the "100's of thousands of new participants...."???

Simple math , how many people have come to live in this state after Tom Washington passing ( those numbers are now going the other way ) , how may kids do some outdoor actives . In the last 15 years. MUCC has run several camp for kids , how many joined from that experience. ??

The influx of individuals during the 90s , combined with kids in the age bracket to participate in the outdoors will get you into the several hundred thousand . Now why aren't the numbers up. Not just MUCC's mumbers , but the consumptive side of the outdoors.

If you only took a small amount of the 2.5 million PLUS ( unique individuals ) in 15 years as potential members/ outdoor customers , you still a ZERO gain for MUCC.

[USST164]

Ninja , had I used the words " Several hundred thousand " you would have picked up on it.

The hand writing was on the wall for the non-believers that things were ( and are ) going wrong in the outdoors and for MUCC when they changed the time frame of the outdoorrama from 2 weeks to a 4/5 day event , then bailed all together and sold it to another outfit.

[Ninja]

Ninja , had I used the words " Several hundred thousand " you would have picked up on it.

The hand writing was on the wall for the non-believers that things were ( and are ) going wrong in the outdoors and for MUCC when they changed the time frame of the outdoorrama from 2 weeks to a 4/5 day event , then bailed all together and sold it to another outfit.

I did pick up on it....."several hundred thousand" and "100's of thousands" is pretty self-explanatory, and quite obviously very similar. :dizzy:

However, most published data shows a decline in numbers.
I was just curious if you were stating fact, opinion, or convaluted logic.

[Hamilton Reef]

Dime deposit sought on water, juice bottles

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080617/METRO/806170422/1409/METRO

06/17/08

LANSING -- A group is reviving efforts to expand Michigan's 10-cent deposit law to include bottled water and juice containers.

The Michigan United Conservation Clubs said Tuesday that within a few years, sales of non-carbonated drinks will exceed soft drink sales.

Michigan's bottle deposit law, passed by voters in 1976, imposes a dime deposit on soft drink, beer, malt beverage and wine cooler containers.

People return 97 percent of containers for which they pay a deposit. But they recycle only 20 percent of bottled water containers because no deposit is required.

Advocates want the Legislature to vote by the end of the month.

Grocery stores have successfully lobbied against expanding the bottle law, so prospects for the legislation are uncertain.

[MOODMagazine]

So USST ,Tom Washington was wrong when he pushed for the first bottle bill?

Personally, I think hunters and anglers have simply become much more complacent and don't become members. The trend in the decline of hunters and anglers has been felt by all organizations not just MUCC. The good news? MUCC is taking the right steps to adjust with today's changing outdoor world and continues to be one of the strongest state groups in the nation thanks to the members and partners that we have. The outdoors is Michigan, like MUCC, is alive and well and we're all going to keep working to make sure that it is. Attacking and bashing each other really doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[multibeard]

MOOD Mag,

I go along ways back with MUCC. I was a member for many years. I spent many hours in MUCC's plush board room chairs in Lansing during SMTA board meetings when I was on the board of directors of the SMTA

In my opinion MUCC started a long down hill slide with the passing of Tom Washington. It has become a YES mouth piece for the DNR, not questioning any of its decisions.

That is one of the main reasons for the loss of membership numbers.

My biggest question is "Where was MUCC when we lost the battle over dove hunting?" I do not remember seeing any great support from MUCC.

Hopefully with the new leadership it has now it can become a good representative of the sportsmen and women of Michigan like it once was.

[Hamilton Reef]

MUCC probably would have introduced the bottle bill upgrade earlier had they not had to waste so much time and money fighting the anit-dove organizations. However, there may be other reasons for introducing the bill at this time than just recycling.

[Hamilton Reef]

Why only a dime deposit on the water bottles. Isn't a 1976 dime closer to 34--cents today? What about those big 5.7Gal water container loophole used to divert Great Lakes water to the other states? They should start at $4.50 per container.

[alex-v]

What happened to the hunting , fishing . shooting sports organization known as MUCC . If the organization wants to be the environmental group do a spinoff and see how many flocked to an environmental organization.
As you already very well know it was the same hunters, fishermen, trappers and outdoor people who were members of the MUCC over 30 years ago who pushed the petitions and got the issue of the deposit passed.

Also, you already know that the modern day hunter and fisherman and trapper seems to have little interest in being involved and in pushing to protect what they have. If they really had this great interest in their outdoor activity they would jump at an opportunity to join the MUCC and push to make the very same changes that you are crying out for.

Naturally, you are already very involved in protecting our hunting and fishing and trapping, right?? You are a member of the NRA, the MUCC, and the other organizations that are fighting to save what we have, right???

[Linda G.]

As I recall, it was Rick Jameson, executive director for just a few years before his very untimely passing, who initially wanted to complete the bottle bill with water and ice tea, etc., bottles. Not Tom Washington.

That was dropped, Tom Hamilton, LONG before the dove issue came to a head in this state...but yes, MUCC dropped the ball on that one, too, in a BIG way, by refusing to take a stance on the issue as they did in 96 with the bear issue. I was actually told that they couldn't due to some ridiculous rule.

[CL-Lewiston]

I would like to see those containers included in the 10 cent deposit.

I would REALLY like to see ALL stores refund ALL deposits-weather or not they sell the product. If you collect deposits you pay refunds. The state will not push that cause they get to keep quite a large percentage (50%) of all uncollected refunds.

[USST164]

So USST ,Tom Washington was wrong when he pushed for the first bottle bill?

Personally, I think hunters and anglers have simply become much more complacent and don't become members. The trend in the decline of hunters and anglers has been felt by all organizations not just MUCC. The good news? MUCC is taking the right steps to adjust with today's changing outdoor world and continues to be one of the strongest state groups in the nation thanks to the members and partners that we have. The outdoors is Michigan, like MUCC, is alive and well and we're all going to keep working to make sure that it is. Attacking and bashing each other really doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I don't see on my post any mentioned of the original bottle bill . I can speak for myself.

What happen to Tom Washington successors , the hand chosen one died soon after taking office , followed by Mr. Goodhart , and the doors weren't wide enough for the masses to leave because an environmentalist was in charge of the organization.

Tom's brother Sam , what was the embarrassment for Sam , his outspoken support for Genny ???? , or was it the lottery / raffle goof up. I'll go with the on-going bleeding of members. The new head hasn't the credentials to lead a hunting , fishing , shooting sports organization. The recommendation of Bob Gardner isn't a plus to the average person in the know.

You could go back to when James Ford did a spot on the " New Mucc " , almost all environment was the focus , with that they headed to the doors in numbers.

Go to each job description of the last 15 years in that organization , and see if the description was hunting, fishing or the shooting sports and I'll guarantee you they weren't .

Save the Bashing comment , it's old and over use by the whiners who can't handle the truth.

55 years to 142,000 , 15 years to lose 100,000... it ain't the " outdoors enthusiasts " aren't joiners.
It's the focus , or in this case the lack of focus on Hunting Fishing & Shooting sports... while the focus today by your employer is on something else.

What organization was against the splitting of the DEQ from the DNR . Even when there was evidence of shady charges to the Fish and Game Fund. Raise your hand .

I take it your Tony , so Tony hows that wood stove program doing.. Hunting Fishing & Shooting sports Tony... simple concept.

http://www.mucc.org/

Some individuals have a problem with your organizations lack of honesty .

Lets Google MUCC , shall we.

http://www.google.com/search?q=MUCC&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Oh look , Tony it's amazing , MUCC gain almost 80,000 in the last few days to get to your 120,000 members on Google. Fix that Tony , or are you going to tell that lie to current and future sponsors. Tip Tony , don't answer that.

When the long standing voices obfuscates their job , the hunting , fishing, shooting sports community takes it in a neck. Your voice is fading with the drop in membership.

[USST164]

I wish the residents of this state would put this well water removal number in perspective. What is the Nestlé operation allowed 300,000 gallons a day. ???

How about 150,000 gallons a second.

http://www.niagarafallslive.com/Facts_about_Niagara_Falls.htm

In a day if my math is right it's over 12 billion gallons a day. That number doesn't count the water sent through the hydro power plants on the Niagara River.

150,000 a second , time 60 seconds in a minute , times 60 minutes in a hour , times 24 hours.

What the state should do is have some small fee levied on each gallon and the money goes to monitor the state resources. They put a royalty on oil and gas that goes to a state government entity.

[Hamilton Reef]

Deposits on bottled water?
Group pushes to spread law to other nonrefundable containers littering state

The Michigan United Conservation Clubs threw its considerable political weight Tuesday behind a plan to extend Michigan's first-in-the-nation bottle deposit law to containers for water, juice and tea bottles.

In 2005, each Michigan resident bought an average of 338 bottles and cans of pop and 138 containers of water and other non-carbonated beverages, according to the Container Recycling Institute. More than 1.1 billion plastic bottles were thrown out in Michigan.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080618/NEWS05/806180317

[Hamilton Reef]

Bottle deposit law

History: Michigan voters passed the state's 10-cent bottle deposit law, the highest in the nation, in 1976. It took effect December 1978.

What it includes: Containers for beer, soft drinks, wine coolers, canned cocktails and carbonated or mineral water.

National perspective: 10 other states have bottle deposit laws; most are for 5 cents. Ten more are considering deposits on bottles and cans.

Water bottle deposits: California, Hawaii and Maine have deposits on water bottles. One chamber of New York's legislature passed a measure adding water bottles to its deposit law last week. Chicago adopted a 5-cent tax on water bottles in January.

Still No. 1: Michigan's bottle deposit still is the highest. California requires a 10-cent deposit on containers more than 24 ounces.

Sources: www.bottlebill.com and the Container Recycling Institute

[Hamilton Reef]

Why only a dime deposit on the water bottles. Isn't a 1976 dime closer to 34--cents today?
Nope, 38cents. Inflation Calculator http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

[Michigander1]

This is great news.Now i can hope for the day not to see crap floating down the Huron river ect....A few log jams are just filled with crap.Im all for this,Mich

[Lucky7]

Although I am a frequent visitor to this Board, I have seldom found it necessary to post. For those who seem take such great delight in highlighting the erosion of MUCC’s membership and political influence since the mid -1990's I would like to extend an invitation to become active in the organization. It takes much more effort and ability to become part of a solution than to merely revel in their problems.

In previous posts I’ve seen MUCC leadership referred to as morons as well as a variety of other disparaging descriptions. While I would be the first to acknowledge that the organization needs significant reform especially during a time of shrinking demographics, speak as an avid sportsman and conservationist it is my opinion that no benefit can come from this continued desire to “eat our own.” The deepening division between the multitude of emerging sportsman’s groups and those in the environmental community has done more to weaken the traditional federation model which led to the creation of groups such as MUCC during the mid-1930's than has anything else.

In spite of its erosion in size and capacity, MUCC remains one of the largest state-based conservation groups in the U.S.. In addition to children’s and educational programs such as Tracks magazine and Wildlife Encounters, it continues to conduct its summer youth outdoor Camp for Kids.

As far as the discrepancies in membership numbers I would offer this. While MUCC’s individual membership my now “only” stand between 40,000 and 50,000, when the total membership of its 400+ affiliated clubs are counted this number is probably closer to 200,000. Although many other the state and national federations frequently choose to use the gross affiliated number, MUCC has historically avoided doing so.

Again, I would welcome and encourage each of you to become active in MUCC and not just shoot at its deflating tires.

[MOODMagazine]

Lucky, Alex, Tom: Thanks for the support and responses. MUCC certainly has a long history and anything that lasts has both its ups and downs.

I'm completely content with my position as a hunter and an angler. I have absolutely no reservations about standing in front of anyone and sharing my passion for the outdoors and telling them straight-up that MUCC is an organization for hunters and anglers by hunters and anglers. We also happen to think that quality resources and habitats are the most important aspect of the outdoors -- without them we won't have places to enjoy the sports we love.

There will always be people like TSS that claim to know things that they don't, that claim to have some valuable insight into things. Tossing out comments that lack sense is the usual game they play. But what they don't have is the courage or the vision to be part of a solution. They're content to simply snipe from afar and do nothing whatsoever to help. We have lots of those and certainly their ranks have increased as our population becomes increasingly complacent, greedy and self-focused. But, as Alex perfectly put, there are more than 40,000 people in this state alone that care about the outdoors enough to be a member and try to be part of a solution. And that number is growing. I always find it interesting that people will focus so much on a past that they claim was wrong but will do nothing to make a future that's right.

I, for one, am tired of hauling water and Gatorade bottles out of the river. We, as sportsmen, have the clout to push this bottle bill amendment through -- just as we did in 1976. Personally, I think it's incredibly selfish and small-minded to insist that any group that wants to make our outdoors a cleaner, better place isn't a true "sportsman's" group and must come from the type of "sportsman" we'd be better off not having.

[CL-Lewiston]

Good post Lucky 7:

Go to most any gun/shooting website and the same comments are made about not belonging to the NRA.

All kinda of reasons for not supporting-supports wrong candidates, too much fundraising mail, to expensive, blah blah.

[USST164]

Although I am a frequent visitor to this Board, I have seldom found it necessary to post. For those who seem take such great delight in highlighting the erosion of MUCC’s membership and political influence since the mid -1990's I would like to extend an invitation to become active in the organization. It takes much more effort and ability to become part of a solution than to merely revel in their problems.

In previous posts I’ve seen MUCC leadership referred to as morons as well as a variety of other disparaging descriptions. While I would be the first to acknowledge that the organization needs significant reform especially during a time of shrinking demographics, speak as an avid sportsman and conservationist it is my opinion that no benefit can come from this continued desire to “eat our own.” The deepening division between the multitude of emerging sportsman’s groups and those in the environmental community has done more to weaken the traditional federation model which led to the creation of groups such as MUCC during the mid-1930's than has anything else.

In spite of its erosion in size and capacity, MUCC remains one of the largest state-based conservation groups in the U.S.. In addition to children’s and educational programs such as Tracks magazine and Wildlife Encounters, it continues to conduct its summer youth outdoor Camp for Kids.

As far as the discrepancies in membership numbers I would offer this. While MUCC’s individual membership my now “only” stand between 40,000 and 50,000, when the total membership of its 400+ affiliated clubs are counted this number is probably closer to 200,000. Although many other the state and national federations frequently choose to use the gross affiliated number, MUCC has historically avoided doing so.

Again, I would welcome and encourage each of you to become active in MUCC and not just shoot at its deflating tires.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ....

If it acts like an environmental group , talks like an environmental group... the 100,000 former members figured it out.

The quoted 120,000 members on that Google was way above the real numbers and so is the alleged 400 plus affiliated groups. You can thank Sam Wasington for the latest wave of exodus.

Sorry , your " new " math still comes out to 42,100 members. With the rate of loss in the last year , your could have kissed the 40,000 plus number goodbye by now and hello to the upper 30 thousand--something.

There isn't a separate column for individuals who are members of several affiliate clubs , you don't count an individual several times to get the 200,000.

It's still 42,100 no matter how you slice it or dice it.

One of the key mistakes MUCC made was with their TV show , the slow sneaking in non-hunting , fishing or shooting sports segments. That action open the eyes of the uninformed. But the ones calling the shots wanted it that way. I'll let others debate whether it was a planned orchestrated exercise to diminish the influence of that organization from within.

[Lucky7]

If one determines the merit of an organization solely on the basis of membership trends, then based on that logic I suppose that nearly every State and National organization should be done away with. In a 2000 book entitled “Bowling Alone” author Robert Putnam discusses his research which has concluded that American’s do not join or participate collectively as they did in the mid and later 20th century. This phenomenon applies to both social as well a professional organizations. Given the shrinking number of participants in the outdoor sports, Michigan’s failing economy, and a reluctance to join anything as an active member, the drop in MUCC’s membership is not surprising.

This is not to say that there have not been mistakes made, but to suggest that a decline in membership is solely the result of a perceived lack of commitment to Michigan’s hunters and anglers is very short-sighted and frankly inaccurate. MUCC receives as much criticism (if not more) for being too hunting and fishing oriented and not taking on environmental issues which actually led to its formation in 1937.

Lastly, if sportsmen in Michigan and around the country think that they are going to win the battles that lie ahead by further isolating themselves from other groups and users who love the outdoors and its heritage, they are sadly mistaken. Seeking to paint oneself in a continually smaller corner is a strategy that has nowhere to go but fail.

[Hamilton Reef]

The feedback I'm receiving is good that MUCC has reintroduced the movement to expand the bottle bill, but it may still take a peoples petition drive to get the stronger bottle bilsl before the public.

[USST164]

If one determines the merit of an organization solely on the basis of membership trends, then based on that logic I suppose that nearly every State and National organization should be done away with. In a 2000 book entitled “Bowling Alone” author Robert Putnam discusses his research which has concluded that American’s do not join or participate collectively as they did in the mid and later 20th century. This phenomenon applies to both social as well a professional organizations. Given the shrinking number of participants in the outdoor sports, Michigan’s failing economy, and a reluctance to join anything as an active member, the drop in MUCC’s membership is not surprising.

This is not to say that there have not been mistakes made, but to suggest that a decline in membership is solely the result of a perceived lack of commitment to Michigan’s hunters and anglers is very short-sighted and frankly inaccurate. MUCC receives as much criticism (if not more) for being too hunting and fishing oriented and not taking on environmental issues which actually led to its formation in 1937.

Lastly, if sportsmen in Michigan and around the country think that they are going to win the battles that lie ahead by further isolating themselves from other groups and users who love the outdoors and its heritage, they are sadly mistaken. Seeking to paint oneself in a continually smaller corner is a strategy that has nowhere to go but fail.

I believe my posts had a lot more to do with then just membership trends.. Try taking the eye off the prize. Like what was said in one of my earlier post , you can't have two masters. You got to 140,000 plus members on Hunting , Fishing & the shooting sports.

Kids coming out of high school after getting brainwashed with propaganda that guns are bad and hunting is for knuckle draggers ( in most urban and suburban schools ) , they see a MUCC magazine and are shocked to see that Conservation can have Hooks & Bullets.
One of the things most people don't understand is the word conservation has been hijacked by the preservationist and anti-gun crowd.
Conservation to them is NO guns , No hunting , No taking of game or fish.
While the ones that come to this site know conservation is the wise , shared use of our renewable natural resources.

Going to the schools is great , but MUCC shows up with non-game animals - Owls , Hawks or some other birds of prey. Now talk about hunting , most schools won't give you the time of day if hunting or fishing is on the agenda ( in most in suburban and urban school districts )

Ted Nugget has it right , it's more then preaching to the choir , or patting each other on the back at some fishing game banquet.

The economy excuse is misleading, their numbers went south starting in the mid 90s when Michigan was running on all cylinders , very low unemployment and lower taxes.

Isolating oneself on some subject matters is also bogus , I don't see the tree-huggers promoting hunting or fishing. I don't see any recreational freeloading group promoting hunting or fishing. None of these non-consumptive group are speaking up in support of hunting and fishing .Thats where MUCC has taken the eyes off the prize. No one in these other groups will fight for what we want to do in the out-doors , that leaves it to MUCC to do their job . They got to 142,000 on hunting fishing and shooting sports .

No one said to isolate MUCC. To work with other groups is fine if they have similar goals on hunting fishing & the shooting sports. This thread started on MUCC taking THE LEAD on an environmental issue.

It doesn't matter to me how many MUCC apologist they dragged out , my observations are valid. You leave the dance with the date that got you there. In this case Hunting , Fishing , shooting sports.

Tom Washington said in 1992 about the good old days , He said the good old days as he saw it , it was there when he said it, 1992 . Today he would be embarrassed at the current state of affairs.

[MOODMagazine]

So, you are saying that if MUCC led the bottle bill in 1976 that showed that they weren't a "real" hunting and fishing group right? Seems to me that Tom Washington was around then.

Bottom line is you've got a personal issue with an organization and are willing to say anything and everything to warrant it. The facts aren't on your side and neither is this issue.

Taking care of our water is EXACTLY what the hunting and angling community must do. Because no one else will.

Now who was it that said we must speak for the wildlife because they can't speak for themselves? Oh yeah, a guy named Teddy Roosevelt. Guess he wasn't really into hunting either right?

Lucky, I don't know who you are but you're right on the money. We can't stand alone and bicker like children. We either stand together or we don't. And if we don't, well, we won't have much to argue about soon enough.

It's just amazing how much talk there always is of the "good, old days" yet those that say those types of things never seem too interested in creating some good old days for people like myself that are young enough to have the rest of their lives ahead of them. But that's okay because we'll get the work done anyway.

[Lucky7]

When Mr. Whack ‘em and Stack ‘em Nugent is seen as a conservation hero, I know we’re in deep trouble. I also know we’re in trouble when taking non-game species to schools and talking about wildlife and the importance of habitat is seen as an anti-hunting conspiracy.

The reality is this; in the future our opportunity (which is not a Constitutional Right) to hunt and fish will be decided not by hunters, not by anti-hunters, but by non-hunters which represent some 90% of the U.S. population. For this reason we better figure out a way to engage them, educate them and partner with them. Name calling and advancing stereotypes in my view is bad strategy. Although many organizations continue to try and promote membership and advance fund-raising by finding an anti-hunter under every bush, we as sportsmen would be better served by taking the high road. That is not running scared, that is running with a plan.

One final note; I frequently have the opportunity to visit with other sportsmen throughout the country and when they hear that we in Michigan have a State-based conservation organization which has some 400 affiliated clubs, 40,000 individual members with a monthly magazine, a weekly TV show, a youth camp, children’s publications and school programs, and full-time policy staff, their jaws drop. I guess the point is, it depends on wether or not your glass is half-full or half-empty.

Good luck with the opposite point of view and thanks for the exchange.

[Ranger Ray]

I can not believe anyone would not look at this, as being a good thing. I do not always agree with MUCC but they are correct on this issue.

The reality is this; in the future our opportunity (which is not a Constitutional Right) to hunt and fish will be decided not by hunters, not by anti-hunters, but by non-hunters which represent some 90% of the U.S. population.
I have had more of my "opportunities to hunt and fish" taken away in my lifetime by the NRC, DNR and fellow sportsman then the anti groups. Sporting groups with personal agendas are the biggest threat facing us.

[USST164]

So, you are saying that if MUCC led the bottle bill in 1976 that showed that they weren't a "real" hunting and fishing group right? Seems to me that Tom Washington was around then.

Bottom line is you've got a personal issue with an organization and are willing to say anything and everything to warrant it. The facts aren't on your side and neither is this issue.

Taking care of our water is EXACTLY what the hunting and angling community must do. Because no one else will.

Now who was it that said we must speak for the wildlife because they can't speak for themselves? Oh yeah, a guy named Teddy Roosevelt. Guess he wasn't really into hunting either right?

Lucky, I don't know who you are but you're right on the money. We can't stand alone and bicker like children. We either stand together or we don't. And if we don't, well, we won't have much to argue about soon enough.

It's just amazing how much talk there always is of the "good, old days" yet those that say those types of things never seem too interested in creating some good old days for people like myself that are young enough to have the rest of their lives ahead of them. But that's okay because we'll get the work done anyway.

Tom Washington got punch drunk of the victory on bottle bill. Ask the 100,000 members that headed for the hills if they felt moving onto the " littler on a stick " campaign against billboards , or his assaults on ATVs and his attempt to ban ATVs on public land state wide , was a hunting and fishing issue.... they weren't.

I remember Tom being on Kelley and Company during the first attack on the phony assault weapons ban. He faced David Wills who was against guns period. Wills gave all sorts of isolated incidents in which individuals misuse firearms killing human beings. Tom's pointed out that gun rights shouldn't be restricted because of a few rotten apples.
What did Tom do a few years latter to ban ATV's . He said some . Isolated incidents of some private property getting destroy and some physical altercation with private property owners by some irresponsible ATV users , so ATV's needed to be banned state wide... What happen about not making a decision based on a few rotten apples... Tom did a flip flop and stabbed the ATV users in the back.

I don't have to make things up , the facts are on my side.

The idea that MUCC has to do the environmental work is hogwash... ask Lana Pollack about that. You have the Tree-huggers doing water quality as we speak. There's several environmental groups out there and land preservationist groups also.

Who was against the splitting of the DEQ & the DNR... MUCC , even in the face of several incidences of money being misappropriated for environmental agenda stuff from the Fish and Game Fund.

The idea the hunters and anglers should pay for the line share of the cost of a cleaner in environment is an absolute travesty .

Here's the way it should be.
If everyone benefits from clean water & everyone benefits from clean air , care to guess who should be paying for it... The answer EVERYONE.

Tony , all that talk of the good old days... is a black eye on MUCC for missing what was important to the members & more importantly, the former members.
You don't get it Tony , you also don't get it that you don't get it.

[USST164]

I

I have had more of my "opportunities to hunt and fish" taken away in my lifetime by the NRC, DNR and fellow sportsman then the anti groups. Sporting groups with personal agendas are the biggest threat facing us.

Who was the umbrella group to oversee the Department of Natural Resources and the Natural Resources Commission to see that opportunities did not get taken away.. MUCC

You can go on Ebay and see the old magazines for sale . Compare the old magazines from more than 20 years ago, to today's magazine. All kinds of things in the magazine today that have nothing to do with hunting , fishing or the shooting sports.

You could say the proof is in the pudding , when it comes to the MUCC magazine , the proof is in the printing.

[USST164]

When Mr. Whack ‘em and Stack ‘em Nugent is seen as a conservation hero, I know we’re in deep trouble. I also know we’re in trouble when taking non-game species to schools and talking about wildlife and the importance of habitat is seen as an anti-hunting conspiracy.

The reality is this; in the future our opportunity (which is not a Constitutional Right) to hunt and fish will be decided not by hunters, not by anti-hunters, but by non-hunters which represent some 90% of the U.S. population. For this reason we better figure out a way to engage them, educate them and partner with them. Name calling and advancing stereotypes in my view is bad strategy. Although many organizations continue to try and promote membership and advance fund-raising by finding an anti-hunter under every bush, we as sportsmen would be better served by taking the high road. That is not running scared, that is running with a plan.

One final note; I frequently have the opportunity to visit with other sportsmen throughout the country and when they hear that we in Michigan have a State-based conservation organization which has some 400 affiliated clubs, 40,000 individual members with a monthly magazine, a weekly TV show, a youth camp, children’s publications and school programs, and full-time policy staff, their jaws drop. I guess the point is, it depends on wether or not your glass is half-full or half-empty.

Good luck with the opposite point of view and thanks for the exchange.

Anti- hunting conspiracy , those are your words.

On Ted , no one said to embrace everything that Uncle Ted says about the outdoors. His comments that there is a big failure in bringing in young people by doing it the old ways is true.

We saw at Kensington Park " the don't shoot them ' philosophy can only go so far. The days of the media main stream smearing hunting in mass are over. Now it's will be isolated jabs.

When talking to organizations outside the state of Michigan, did you happen to tell them what MUCC used to be , now 1/3 the size what they use to be. A environmental organization wanna be , probably didn't come into your vocabulary with your friends from out of state. Half of anything is better then the current 1/3's of the old days when they actually cared about hunting , fishing and the shooting sports.

[USST164]

Lucky , did you happen to tell your out of state friends that they had a now discontinued radio show hosted by Sam Washington on a 50,000 watt radio station that at night covered 15 states... but the membership stilled dropped.

Did you mention that they HAD a 2 plus week outdoor show in or around the city of Detroit for two decades , now it's 4 days and run buy someone else , while the membership numbers still went lower.

Did you also mention that their T V show was the start of the membership exodus. The question is was it the subject matter occasionally on the show ( environmental ) , or the actors they hired.

I'm trying to think what was the environmental magazine they stopped publishing in the early side of the 90s.

So did you say that to your friends... Nah , probably not.

[cadillacjethro]

I personally am glad someone is pursuing this matter. I think it is unfortunate that MUCC has to spend the time, energy, and money to do it. Will someone explain to this stupid Irish boy the difference between a plastic pop bottle and a plastic water bottle? Thanks in advance.

[MOODMagazine]

USST, I'm a big believer in facts. Have you read the Michigan Out-of-Doors in the last two years? Again, if you've got criticism or comments, let's try and have some fathom of reality involved.

If you'd like to compare those magazine of 20 years ago, I'd love to. I have every one of them. Let's just grab one, shall we:

How about the lineup for Feb. 1989 -- the first one I just happened to grab:
Following winter trails on skis
Wildflowers
MUCC launching campaign for unpaid deposits -- interesting . . .
Reforestation for wildlife
There are three features on hunting or fishing . . . lots of notes on other conservation issues.

Here's a sample edit calendar of last 4 months:
June 08:
Swimbaits for bass
Redear sunfish
River Pike
Catfish tactics
Whitetail biolog
Bowfishing
Bass column
3-D archery
Beanfield guns

MAY 08
Muddy water walleyes
Trout and morels
Bugs and panfish
Wolves and deer
Food plots for deer
Giant bass on big water
May Great Lakes fishing
Gun season in October

APRIL 08
Fooling gobblers
Turkey gear
Grand River Steelhead
Fishing Gear
Bluegill Bob
Fair-chase ethics
Patterning turkey guns
April on the Great Lakes fishing
Spring bass tactics
Whitetail vocalizations
Loads for turkeys

MARCH 08
Boat buyers' guide
Ice-out crappies
Rogue River steelhead
Steelhead on balsa baits
Learning new archery skills
Deeryard conditions
Calling turkeys
Shotguns for gobblers
Pier fishing
Whitetail column

[USST164]

You left out the other parts of the magazine , go to the front and read their plans and projects.... environmentalism in spades.

1989 cross-country skiing , wildflowers , that doesn't sound like hunting , fishing or the shooting sports. Those " other conservation issues " , that would be environmentalism.

It didn't just start in 1989 .

It was the TV show that started that mass exodus , not the first week. It took several Non-hunting , non-fishing , non - shooting sports segments to wake up the members. The old saying pictures are worth a thousand words... this was moving pictures.

I really loved Bill Rustem and the DNR alleged audit on show # 7 ( around # 7 )... LOL , of course they never said his brother was on the ladder to higher positions in the Department of Natural Resources. Rat on your brothers employer .. LOL Who ran the Non-game part of the DNR... for years ... Ray Rustem , the heritage program.

On those wildflowers , would the author have been Tom Huggler , I know he did several. We all know thats NOT Toms best work. Just like the story where he couldn't fine an old time coffee shop where all the farmers hanged out , like the old days.

You can beg the MUCC apologist to come out of the woodwork and post here. But the truth and facts are on my side. Your buddies can say things are wonderful , and stay with the status quo. But they said that at 100,000 members , 75,000 members & 50,000 members and falling.

The votes are in , the members for years have voted ... with their feet.

[MOODMagazine]

Okay, I can see you don't like facts and reality. I've pretty much written every word in that magazine for the last two years so I tend to know what's been in it. Are you referring to the battle against invasive species? Clearly, invasive species is something hunters and anglers shouldn't care about right? It's not like they'll have any impact on our fisheries. Nope, shouldn't waste any time dealing with that flowery stuff.

There seems to be same, tired and inaccurate slant to your rant. And all I can say is that while some will choose to sit on their duffs and do ZERO to make Michigan's outdoors a better place and base their "facts" on rumors and simple made-up rubbish, MUCC and alot of other partners will continue to do the work so that you can continue enjoy the fruits of our labors. That's really the difference between an involved, engaged citizen and, well, the rest.


By the way, thanks to everyone who has contacted MUCC and showed tremendous support for the bottle bill amendment. The response has been overwhelming and we'll continue to post updates and tools for playing a part on our website. Continue to monitor this site as well -- it's a great tool for keeping everyone connected and I appreciate the mods and Steve for being a great partner.

[USST164]

Tony , Let me put this way...environmental agenda , sugarcoated with some hunting fishing and shooting sports article does not take away the fact that it's got an environmental agenda.

Jan 2008 page # 10... Reycling.

April 2008, Tom Huggler... need i say more. Alter the State constitution .. ???

Tony it's NOT just the magazine.

The MUCC web page with the different policy report's are " littered " with environmentalism.


Below is a list of interest by a hunting , fishing , shooting sports organization.

Energy , hazardous and toxic waste , clean water , clean air , transportation , incinerator operation , recycling and litter , farmland and agriculture ,landscaping , highways and roadways , mining

http://www.mucc.org/policy/policybook.pdf


As far as this site goes , when you look at the list of forums and sub-forums... environmentalism... nonexistence.

[MOODMagazine]

USST,

You're right, pushing legislation that makes it tougher for groups like HSUS to put things on the ballot and buy elections is very much against what hunters and anglers want . . .

And, yeah, there's no "environementalism" on this site. Just a bunch of dedicated hunters and anglers interested in those topics that can impact their resources and rights, like invasives, bad legislation, water legislation, etc.

[USST164]

USST,

You're right, pushing legislation that makes it tougher for groups like HSUS to put things on the ballot and buy elections is very much against what hunters and anglers want . . .

And, yeah, there's no "environementalism" on this site. Just a bunch of dedicated hunters and anglers interested in those topics that can impact their resources and rights, like invasives, bad legislation, water legislation, etc.

What was in front of that line about environmentalism on this site... Forums , sub-forums. You conveniently left that part off.

Changing the Constitution as a double-edged sword , remember proposal G.

Remember this Tony , all judges of the state judicial system are elected ( except for appointments because of vacancy ).

I see you left off the 15 things I pointed out.... Just an over sight on your part , right Tony.

Tony , Have MUCC do a spin-off into an environmental group / and the old MUCC , just like the DNR / DEQ. Lets see where the membership numbers would be.

Tony there is just so much time in the day , and a limited set amount of monetary resources , MUCC has lost their way. 15 items I pointed out , you shipped past... just like whistling past the graveyard.

[Hamilton Reef]

MUCC is absolutely correct to support clean environments. Hunting and fishing are 'not' the only outdoor activities in Michigan. MUCC has great diversity of organizations (including hunters, fishers, and horse riders) all of which operate much better with clean environments. MUCC members prefer to enjoy the fresh air, cleanwater, and healthy environments while hunting, fishing, and riding their horses. USST164 can retain the right to fish in a Delta County poo poo drain and hunt at a township dump, but most MUCC members believe the out-of-doors is more fun with clean healthy environments.

Conservation Pledge
I give my pledge as an American to save and faithfully to defend from waste the natural resources of my country - its air, soil and minerals, its forests, waters and wildlife.

The bottle bill is not perfect yet, but we're working on it.

[USST164]

MUCC is absolutely correct to support clean environments. Hunting and fishing are 'not' the only outdoor activities in Michigan. MUCC has great diversity of organizations (including hunters, fishers, and horse riders) all of which operate much better with clean environments. MUCC members prefer to enjoy the fresh air, cleanwater, and healthy environments while hunting, fishing, and riding their horses. USST164 can retain the right to fish in a Delta County poo poo drain and hunt at a township dump, but most MUCC members believe the out-of-doors is more fun with clean healthy environments.

Conservation Pledge
I give my pledge as an American to save and faithfully to defend from waste the natural resources of my country - its air, soil and minerals, its forests, waters and wildlife.

The bottle bill is not perfect yet, but we're working on it.

I'm glad you brought up the Dump , I left off three other things in the MUCC Master Policy statement . Landfills , Solid waste and Composting.

Mr. Reef knows for a fact that there are several other organization that cover environmental issues. But only ONE umbrella group based on hunting , fishing and the shooting sports, going back to 1937... MUCC

[MOODMagazine]

USST,

You're right, there's only so much time so I'll just end the discussion -- no one skipped over anything. There's nothing to skip over. MUCC -- just like DU, NWTF, RMEF, PF, QDMA and all the other groups that speak for hunters, our mission encompasses the whole outdoors. Overlooking habitat issues, conservation concerns, etc. is just plain wrong and I, as a lifelong hunter and angler, am glad that few people share your views.

You are completely correct about one statement, however: MUCC is the only umbrella group in Michigan for hunters and anglers since 1937. And we're not going anywhere. In fact, given the progress I've seen in the last two years, I'm very excited about the future and that MUCC is back on the right track.

[USST164]

USST,

You're right, there's only so much time so I'll just end the discussion -- no one skipped over anything. There's nothing to skip over. MUCC -- just like DU, NWTF, RMEF, PF, QDMA and all the other groups that speak for hunters, our mission encompasses the whole outdoors. Overlooking habitat issues, conservation concerns, etc. is just plain wrong and I, as a lifelong hunter and angler, am glad that few people share your views.

You are completely correct about one statement, however: MUCC is the only umbrella group in Michigan for hunters and anglers since 1937. And we're not going anywhere. In fact, given the progress I've seen in the last two years, I'm very excited about the future and that MUCC is back on the right track.

Back for more of an education about MUCC environmental agenda , great. You're the one that brought up the old magazines, and having access to those old magazines. Tony , go back after the original bottle bill outcome. See where Tom Washington wanted to build a monument to himself in the form of an large office building in the shadow of capital. They wanted to be an environmental group, in conjunction with their past interests. They were asking it's membership to cough up $250-$500 to have their name put on a plaque or bricks under the guise that they could work ( lobby ) with government better if they were next door.
That was in an era when there was no Internet , no e-mails , no message boards, not even bulletin boards. MUCC said they couldn't secure financing for the project. But no doubt Mr. Washington got letters from outraged members that they didn't want MUCC to become an environmental group.

So it's back to Wood street. You know , where your at with the showcase landscape garden. Landscape garden for a hunting , fishing shooting sports group ???.... So much for focus on hunting , fishing and the shooting sports.

But MUCC can work it in , just have the T V crew stand in the bushes at the start and end of the show. Go look at the when James Ford was with the show , they didn't even work hard to camouflage the fact they were standing next to the parking lot.

Tony you stated I didn't have the facts , then I posted numerous links to prove your wrong. You said I wasn't telling the truth , then I posted a link to the Master Policy Statement of MUCC , that document had almost 20 things to do with the environment , a lot more things then Hunting , Fishing & the Shooting Sports.

A tip Tony , if you ever see my postings again where MUCC comes up in the thread , go out and buy a bigger desk , you'll have more room to take cover, Just a tip. I tell it the way it is , NOT the way you fantasize the way things are.

[truk]

i know i would vote "yes" on an amended bill to include all throw away containers...ie juice, water,sports drinks etc.

[USST164]

It's absolutely amazing , before I used to have to go through notes and files to find the truth. Now I turn on the TV, and it's right there.

MUCC's TV show had a special guest this week , their first appearance on a policy issue , if I remember right. What was the important" Natural Resource News " issue , recycling... my , my , my ... How convenient , thank you oh great one , Mr. Muchmore. What was the end of that segment , a camera shot of empty water bottles in a blue recycling bin.

This is just to easy to prove my point.