Crossbows Are Great, But They’re Not Bows

[Swamp Ghost]

Crossbows Are Great, But They’re Not Bows
By Field and Stream Deputy Editor Anthony Licata


I think it’s ridiculous that in 22 states crossbows are either completely illegal for hunting or an option for handicapped hunters only. There is no logical reason for this third-rate status. But there is a time and place for everything, and while crossbows are a fine choice for any general hunting season, they do not belong in archery-only seasons.


First, some simple facts. Crossbows and modern compound bows are so similar in ballistic performance that they are both 40-yard weapons. A Crossbow is easier to fire accurately because of its sights, stock, and ability to be braced during the shot. But to be fair, with advances in design, components, and mechanical releases, modern compounds are getting easier to master as well.


There is one essential difference between the two. Because you can cock and load a crossbow, you eliminate what any bowhunter will tell you is the sport’s biggest challenge: drawing an arrow undetected on an animal standing within 40 yards.


Some say, so what? Isn’t it better to do anything that gets more hunters in the field? They claim that by banning crossbows from bow seasons, we’re dividing our hunting fraternity and playing right into the hands of antihunters.


Forgive me for not following the party line, but the idea that setting separate seasons for different types of weapons somehow makes us vulnerable to antihunters is foolish and paranoid. In fact, I think that primitive weapons’ seasons actually help hunting.


To me, the whole point of primitive seasons is to acknowledge and reward the idea that hunting should be hard. In our daily lives we welcome every technological advancement that helps us do things easier and faster. But don’t we hunt to get away from all that? Hunting is about using ancient, primal skills in a way that respects nature and the animals we pursue. Once we accept technology over competence and instant gratification before sacrifice, we forfeit what makes hunting so much more than a pastime or hobby. The biggest threat to hunting isn’t division within our own ranks--it’s the ethic that considers more hunters killing more deer as the ultimate end, no matter the means.


Certainly the advances in modern compounds and in-line muzzleloaders have eroded some of the meaning of primitive seasons. But let’s try to preserve what is left of their spirit. If you’re a junior hunter or an injury prevents you from pulling back a compound, then I think a crossbow is fine during bow season. Otherwise, work on your skills, and let’s keep our archery seasons for bows that you actually have to draw before you shoot.

[madmike22]

I completely agree. If you are going to hunt with a crossbow during archery season you might as well allow the use of pistols also. Pretty soon it wont be an archery season anymore. I have no problem with the physically handicapped being able to use a crossbow during archery season. But i think the requirments need to be stricter being able to do so. I know many people that have had there doctors write letters saying they are unable to use there regular bows and have the limitations but they throw cement blocks for a living. Still work 40-50 hours a week. I do not want to see everyone running around in the woods with a crossbow during archery season. A cross bow is not a bow. Its a gun that shoots an arrow.

[wildcoy73]

the artical keeps talking about primitive season. I see nothing primitive in my compound bow. 75% let off, drop away rest, red dot scope, release, carbon arrows, mechanicle broadheads. so what is primitive about the modern bow?
As I see this and look at my bow, and think of what all I take in to the woods to go hunting every season. and than the use of this computer to look at maps to find an area I would like to do more scouting in and put up the cameras. I realize one thing maybe the crossbow hunters will bring back some tradition to the sport. and I also realize that the crossbow is one of the oldest weapon in the world, and this author talks about primitive weapon.:lol::lol::lol::dizzy::dizzy: It is a complete joke.

[wildcoy73]

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crossbow&action=edit&section=6)] First evidence

It is not clear exactly where and when the crossbow originated, but there is evidence that it was used for military (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military) purposes from the second half of the 4th century BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_century_BC) onwards.
Linguistic evidence makes it the more probable hypothesis that the crossbow may have originated among the cultures neighboring ancient China. It was used as weapon and toy, but mainly in the form of unattended traps.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbows#cite_note-2)
The earliest Chinese document mentioning a crossbow is in scripts from the 4th–3rd century BC attributed to the followers of Mozi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohist). This source refers the use of a giant crossbow catapult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catapult) to the 6th to 5th century BC, corresponding to the late Spring and Autumn Period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_and_Autumn_Period). Sun Tzu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu)'s influential book The Art of War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_War) (first appearance dated in between 500 BC to 300 BC[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbows#cite_note-3)) refers in chapter V to the traits and in XII to the use of crossbows.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbows#cite_note-4) One of the earliest reliable records of this weapon in warfare is from an ambush, the Battle of Ma-Ling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Maling) in 341 BC. By the 200s BC, the crossbow (nǔ, 弩) was well developed and quite widely used in China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China). Several remains of them have been found among the soldiers of the Terracotta Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terracotta_Army) in the tomb of Emperor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_of_China) Qin Shi Huang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_Shi_Huang) (260-210 BC).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbows#cite_note-5)
The earliest date for the crossbow is from the 5th century BC,[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbows#cite_note-6) from the Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece) world. This was called the gastraphetes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastraphetes), which could store more energy than the Greek bows, and was used in the Siege of Motya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Wars#The_Second_Sicilian_War_.28410_BC-340_BC.29) in 397 BC. This was a key Carthaginian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthaginian) stronghold in Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily), as described in the 1st century AD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_century_AD) by Hero of Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria) in his book Belopoeica.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbows#cite_note-7) Same as with the Chinese sources a non-contemporary attribution of technical means can be doubted. Furthermore, there is a lack of other Greek sources stating the same. At least Alexander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great)'s siege of Tyre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Tyre) in 332 BC provides reliable sources for the use of these weapons by the Greek besiegers.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbows#cite_note-8)

Looking at this, I find the crossbow is a primitive weapon,, and dates back to before our lord. No compound can say that.

[2PawsRiver]

The use of Crossbows is just another symtem of todays "I want everthing easy" society.

[Swamp Ghost]

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crossbow&action=edit&section=6)] First evidence

It is not clear exactly where and when the crossbow originated, but there is evidence that it was used for military (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military) purposes from the second half of the 4th century BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_century_BC) onwards.
Linguistic evidence makes it the more probable hypothesis that the crossbow may have originated among the cultures neighboring ancient China. It was used as weapon and toy, but mainly in the form of unattended traps.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbows#cite_note-2)
The earliest Chinese document mentioning a crossbow is in scripts from the 4th–3rd century BC attributed to the followers of Mozi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohist). This source refers the use of a giant crossbow catapult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catapult) to the 6th to 5th century BC, corresponding to the late Spring and Autumn Period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_and_Autumn_Period). Sun Tzu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu)'s influential book The Art of War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_War) (first appearance dated in between 500 BC to 300 BC[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbows#cite_note-3)) refers in chapter V to the traits and in XII to the use of crossbows.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbows#cite_note-4) One of the earliest reliable records of this weapon in warfare is from an ambush, the Battle of Ma-Ling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Maling) in 341 BC. By the 200s BC, the crossbow (nǔ, 弩) was well developed and quite widely used in China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China). Several remains of them have been found among the soldiers of the Terracotta Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terracotta_Army) in the tomb of Emperor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_of_China) Qin Shi Huang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_Shi_Huang) (260-210 BC).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbows#cite_note-5)
The earliest date for the crossbow is from the 5th century BC,[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbows#cite_note-6) from the Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece) world. This was called the gastraphetes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastraphetes), which could store more energy than the Greek bows, and was used in the Siege of Motya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Wars#The_Second_Sicilian_War_.28410_BC-340_BC.29) in 397 BC. This was a key Carthaginian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthaginian) stronghold in Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily), as described in the 1st century AD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_century_AD) by Hero of Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria) in his book Belopoeica.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbows#cite_note-7) Same as with the Chinese sources a non-contemporary attribution of technical means can be doubted. Furthermore, there is a lack of other Greek sources stating the same. At least Alexander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great)'s siege of Tyre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Tyre) in 332 BC provides reliable sources for the use of these weapons by the Greek besiegers.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbows#cite_note-8)

Looking at this, I find the crossbow is a primitive weapon,, and dates back to before our lord. No compound can say that.

You can't be serious....:yikes:

Hey look, they still called it a crossbow back then, even 3,000 years ago it was different than a bow.

[Liv4Huntin']

Crossbows Are Great, But They’re Not Bows
By Field and Stream Deputy Editor Anthony Licata





Hunting is about using ancient, primal skills in a way that respects nature and the animals we pursue. .

Certainly the advances in modern compounds and in-line muzzleloaders have eroded some of the meaning of primitive seasons.

If you look at the first sentence, he is correct...... THE SKILL is in getting close to your game. The SKILL is in getting a humane shot. The SKILL is what levels the playing field. After all, you can 'camouflage' your draw with a compound bow ... there's even a 'portable BOW blind that attaches to the front of your COMPOUND bow that totally HIDES the hunter. It is part of the bow when attached and is available for anyone to use. A hunter can even stalk his intended prey animal using this device. It is a HUNTER'S CHOICE.

His 'arguments' seem to come from a side that ignores facts opposite his opinion. Such is the power of freedom of press.

It's a wonderful country we live in for sure.
~ m ~

[Swamp Ghost]

If you look at the first sentence, he is correct...... THE SKILL is in getting close to your game. The SKILL is in getting a humane shot. The SKILL is what levels the playing field. After all, you can 'camouflage' your draw with a compound bow ... there's even 'portable BOW blinds that attaches to the front of your COMPOUND bow that totally HIDE the hunter. It is part of the bow when attached and is available for anyone to use.

His 'arguments' seem to come from a side that ignores facts opposite his opinion. Such is the power of freedom of press.

It's a wonderful country we live in for sure.
~ m ~

So a hunter with a rifle and one with a bow are on a level playing field? If you say so.......

Accessories are a different topic.

[Bmac]

A cross bow is not a bow. Its a gun that shoots an arrow.


A firearm/gun shoots a projectile (bullet/shot/slug) down a barrel using compressed gas as a means of propulsion. Archery equipment (bows) use a drawn string to "bow" limbs as a means of storing energy. When released, it sends a shaft (arrow/bolt) toward the intended target.

[love2fish93]

I will definatly stand behind putting crossbows in firearm season.

[Swamp Ghost]

the artical keeps talking about primitive season. I see nothing primitive in my compound bow. 75% let off, drop away rest, red dot scope, release, carbon arrows, mechanicle broadheads. so what is primitive about the modern bow?
As I see this and look at my bow, and think of what all I take in to the woods to go hunting every season. and than the use of this computer to look at maps to find an area I would like to do more scouting in and put up the cameras. I realize one thing maybe the crossbow hunters will bring back some tradition to the sport. and I also realize that the crossbow is one of the oldest weapon in the world, and this author talks about primitive weapon.:lol::lol::lol::dizzy::dizzy: It is a complete joke.

Why is it a joke? Primitive/lessor weapon seasons what every you want to call them. They keep different primitive weapons in different seasons. ML's with ML season, Bows with bowseason and crossbows also with a season of their own.

Hunters can start a whole new tradition by using this ancient weapon in it's own season. Just like ML-hunters and bowhunters did.

[marty]

we use tree stands ,camo,scents,calls,decoys and ever other toy under the sun to get an edge on deer If it really about drawing down on a deer let give up the toys big guys and hunt with flashing light and bells around our necks

[Swamp Ghost]

we use tree stands ,camo,scents,calls,decoys and ever other toy under the sun to get an edge on deer If it really about drawing down on a deer let give up the toys big guys and hunt with flashing light and bells around our necks

Accessories are a different topic.

[Liv4Huntin']

So a hunter with a rifle and one with a bow are on a level playing field? If you say so.......

Accessories are a different topic.
The 'primitive hunting skill' is in getting close to your game. You don't NEED to with a rifle, Swamp.
~ m ~

[Swamp Ghost]

The 'primitive hunting skill' is in getting close to your game. You don't NEED to with a rifle, Swamp.
~ m ~

With that logic I can start hunting with my slug-gun as most of my shots are under 30 yards because of heavy surrounding cover. So I HAVE to be close.

[marty]

Accessories are a different topic.

can you say that a hunter gets no advantage at all with these?? I would bet most hunters would disagree?? How about asking them to give it up??

Spin it anyway you want. crossbow is a bow and kills the same way your bow does :D

[Munsterlndr]

Swamp -
How about posting an article written by somebody who has actually harvested a deer with both a crossbow and a vertical bow and who then still maintains that crossbows should not be in archery season. You know, someone who has actual first hand experience so they know what they are talking about? What were you saying about op-ed pieces? When this guy decides to actually hunt with one instead of parroting a bunch of stale rhetoric, then maybe someone might take him seriously. :rolleyes:

[Swamp Ghost]

can you say that a hunter gets no advantage at all with these?? I would bet most hunters would disagree?? How about asking them to give it up??
Are accessories essential to killing game?

Weapons are.



Spin it anyway you want. crossbow is a bow and kills the same way your bow does :D

OH doesn't even recognize crossbows as a bow.

Death is the result of shock. Doesn't matter if it was from a bullet, broadhead, or a car.

[Swamp Ghost]

Swamp -
How about posting an article written by somebody who has actually harvested a deer with both a crossbow and a vertical bow and who then still maintains that crossbows should not be in archery season. You know, someone who has actual first hand experience so they know what they are talking about? What were you saying about op-ed pieces? When this guy decides to actually hunt with one instead of parroting a bunch of stale rhetoric, then maybe someone might take him seriously. :rolleyes:

Oh, you mean a non-biased opinion? LOL! :lol:

I didn't read that WildEd actually has hunted with a crossbow.

I went through radical surgery on my right shoulder and have not regained enough use to even throw a ball to my grandchildren. The Doc said my bowhunting days were over and wrote me a letter so I could hunt with a crossbow. I now own a 175 pound Horton Hunter HD and am starting the next phase of my bowhunting.

Disabled hunter, separate argument.

And Steve Galea has hunted with a crossbow for how long? Harvested how many deer with it? Did he even hunt with it? :lol:

But late last fall, I added a crossbow to the mix
Posted on: 01/22/08


Get real.

[Radar420]

They keep different primitive weapons in different seasons. ML's with ML season, Bows with bowseason and crossbows also with a season of their own.

Hunters can start a whole new tradition by using this ancient weapon in it's own season. Just like ML-hunters and bowhunters did.

But you can hunt with ML's in gun season as it's still a gun. A crossbow is still archery equipment and in Michigan we have archery season - not bow season (regardless if you and 1000s of hunters call it otherwise).

The logical thing would be to allow crossbows during archery season and then you can petition the state for your own separate bow/crossbow season.:evilsmile

[Liv4Huntin']

With that logic I can start hunting with my slug-gun as most of my shots are under 30 yards because of heavy surrounding cover. So I HAVE to be close.

You have the right to choose to hunt with a slug gun in Michigan. If you're in southern lower, that's all you can use during the 'gun' season (as opposed to 'rifle' ... which is what I believe YOU were talking about..) OR a handgun. Those are facts.
~ m ~

[Swamp Ghost]

You have the right to choose to hunt with a slug gun in Michigan. If you're in souther lower, that's all you can use during the 'gun' season (as opposed to 'rifle' .. which is what I believe YOU were talking about.) OR a handgun. Those are facts.
~ m ~

You have your choice of bows to use in MI's bowseason. The only requirement is that you actually have to draw it back. Just pick one up, practice and join us in the woods. Crossbow use is restricted. Hey, that's a fact........

[Swamp Ghost]

But you can hunt with ML's in gun season as it's still a gun. A crossbow is still archery equipment and in Michigan we have archery season - not bow season (regardless if you and 1000s of hunters call it otherwise).

The logical thing would be to allow crossbows during archery season and then you can petition the state for your own separate bow/crossbow season.:evilsmile

Luckily MI logically legalized crossbow use in firearm season for the same reason they allow bows and ML use in firearm season.

Half your work is done, all you have to do is petition for a season of your own. Just like ML's and bows have.

[spice64]

Keep the x-bows in rifle season.

[marty]

Come on what hunter doesn't have those accessories you talk about?? I'll bet most kills have someting to do with those additions:D

rifle kills by shock. bows kill by blood loss . cars are too much money for me to hunt with:D

I would like to still know what is so fired up important about drawing in front of a deer?? if so why use a tree stand or camo??

[Swamp Ghost]

Come on what hunter doesn't have those accessories you talk about?? I'll bet most kills have someting to do with those additions:D

rifle kills by shock. bows kill by blood loss . cars are too much money for me to hunt with:D

I would like to still know what is so fired up important about drawing in front of a deer?? if so why use a tree stand or camo??

I suggest you do some research about causes of death.

This about weapons not accessories.

[Radar420]

Luckily MI logically legalized crossbow use in firearm season for the same reason they allow bows and ML use in firearm season.

How is it logical that archery equipment isn't allowed within archery season?

[Liv4Huntin']

You have your choice of bows to use in MI's bowseason. The only requirement is that you actually have to draw it back. Just pick one up, practice and join us in the woods. Crossbow use is restricted. Hey, that's a fact........

NO, swamp, all do NOT have the choice of bows to use.... that's what this is all about. If so, there would be those that had the CHOICE to use a crossbow in Michigan's Archery Season. It's very sad that there are those that would seek to restrict the access to Michigan's outdoor resourses and try so hard to do it.
~ m ~

[Swamp Ghost]

How is it logical that archery equipment isn't allowed within archery season?

The DNR doesn't see it that way. That's why they are legal in gun season.

[Swamp Ghost]

NO, swamp, all do NOT have the choice of bows to use.... that's what this is all about. If so, there would be those that had the CHOICE to use a crossbow in Michigan's Archery Season. It's very sad that there are those that would seek to restrict the access to Michigan's outdoor resourses and try so hard to do it.
~ m ~

You have the coice to use a longbow, recurve or compund bow legally in MI and 49 other states. You can use a crossbow in MI's gun season if you want to use one.

MI hunters have an almost over-abundance of access and opportunity, it's very sad that some CHOOSE not to.

[wildcoy73]

The DNR doesn't see it that way. That's why they are legal in gun season.
Swamp Ghost, please do your research before posting. If the rules on crossbows where up to the dnr than this would be a non issue and we would have crossbows in the bow season. But the use of crossbows During the archery season is up to the state and that is why we talk to our reps and not the dnr or nrc about this issue. I have watched you post alot of things about the crossbow and everyone of them holds no water. Just like a compound is not primitive in any way. guess the compound should be takin out of the archery season and made to have a season to its own, for it is way to easy for me to kill a deer with it. have over 30 deer with my bow compared to 4 with a gun. looks to me that the compound is easier to hunt with.

[Swamp Ghost]

Swamp Ghost, please do your research before posting. If the rules on crossbows where up to the dnr than this would be a non issue and we would have crossbows in the bow season. But the use of crossbows During the archery season is up to the state and that is why we talk to our reps and not the dnr or nrc about this issue. I have watched you post alot of things about the crossbow and everyone of them holds no water. Just like a compound is not primitive in any way. guess the compound should be takin out of the archery season and made to have a season to its own, for it is way to easy for me to kill a deer with it. have over 30 deer with my bow compared to 4 with a gun. looks to me that the compound is easier to hunt with.

If you say so....

So I guess the will of MI residents and hunters (aka, voters) keep it restricted. So I guess our opinions do hold water. Still restricted in MI, no matter which way you want to slice it.

A modern compound compares to a traditional bow the same way a modern crossbow compares to a traditional crossbow.

Traditional seasons and weapons are another topic.

[marty]

I suggest you do some research about causes of death.

This about weapons not accessories.

is the cause if death is not important why is the weapon??

I ask again" what is so fired up about drawing in front of game??

If so why do we use camo and tree stands

what does it matter if I use a crossbow or a long bow as long as I make a good clean shot??

Personally I don't want game to see me draw. I rather have a calm animal in my sights. Makes for a better shot. That why i use a pop -up:D

[TOW]

By Field and Stream Deputy Editor Anthony Licata

There is one essential difference between the two. Because you can cock and load a crossbow, you eliminate what any bowhunter will tell you is the sport’s biggest challenge: drawing an arrow undetected on an animal standing within 40 yards.


Bull....

The "biggest challenge" to a bowhunter is getting within striking distance (40 yards is getting a good piece out there for most bowhunters) of the game we are pursuing. That is true no matter what piece of archery gear we have in our hands.

The drawing in the presence of game is a pretty flimsy spot to take a stand on.

Drawing/Shooting in the Presence of Game


The crossbow does have a slight advantage in this area. The string is back in a firing position before game is approaching. How much of an advantage is debatable as several things come into play.

1) Being 20 to 25 foot up a tree when attempting to draw a compound bow will lessen a deer’s ability to see you.

2) Bows are usually 75 to 90 percent let off so one can draw on a deer much sooner and hold longer to make a killing shot with less worry about the deer seeing you. Mike Beatty drew and held on the new world record non-typical buck for a full 3 minute before making the shot. That bow was a 85% let off. There is a bow on the market that is 99% let off where one can draw the bow as soon as game is spotted and they can wait for however long it takes for that animal to approach the shooting area.

3) A number of hunters that use ground blinds are using a blind called Double Bull, “Doghouse”, etc that allows one to draw and shoot through a curtain and never be seen by the animal.

4) Most bowhunters learn when and when not to draw on a deer. IE – when it’s head is behind a bush or tree or allowing the deer to walk past them and shoot them quartering away.

Both pieces of equipment have to be raised into a shooting position. Only the compound has to be drawn. That draw should be straight back and covered somewhat by the bow and bow quiver (if one is on the bow). That is unless the person drawing the bow seriously over-bowed and has to horse it back with great exaggerated movements..

Regardless of the perceived advantage of “not having to draw back a crossbow” the kill percentages are identical for compounds and crossbows. THAT is where the rubber meets the road.

There are advantages and disadvantages to all pieces of archery equipment. None of the so called advantages is enough to say that one piece of archery equipment belongs in archery season and another doesn't.

[TOW]

Why is it a joke? Primitive/lessor weapon seasons what every you want to call them. They keep different primitive weapons in different seasons. ML's with ML season, Bows with bowseason and crossbows also with a season of their own.

Hunters can start a whole new tradition by using this ancient weapon in it's own season. Just like ML-hunters and bowhunters did.

Fine... no problem... Just make it concurrent with the archery season..

You buy into that?

[TOW]

Death is the result of shock. Doesn't matter if it was from a bullet, broadhead, or a car.

That is incorrect.

Deer shot with an arrow dies from blood loss and/or lung collapse..

[wildcoy73]

[quote=Swamp Ghost;2159699]If you say so....

So I guess the will of MI residents and hunters (aka, voters) keep it restricted. So I guess our opinions do hold water. Still restricted in MI, no matter which way you want to slice it.
Swamp ghost: that pretty much is it It is up to us to allow crossbows during the archery season. But I will give in to you. Just as muzzle loader has its own season( that runs along with archery) So i will ask for the crossbow to have its own season. Dates I have asked for will be October 1st threw November 14th and than December 1st threw January 1st. Just like the muzzle loader season archery season will run with it. Now that I have fit it into what you wanted a seprate season i should be able to get Your signature on the petition for this new season.
Please let me know where i can see ya at to get your signature, I am saving the first line just for you.:D

[Swamp Ghost]

That is incorrect.

Deer shot with an arrow dies from blood loss and/or lung collapse..


And a deer shot with a bullet doesn't?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_(medical)

[Swamp Ghost]

Swamp ghost: that pretty much is it It is up to us to allow crossbows during the archery season. But I will give in to you. Just as muzzle loader has its own season( that runs along with archery) So i will ask for the crossbow to have its own season. Dates I have asked for will be October 1st threw November 14th and than December 1st threw January 1st. Just like the muzzle loader season archery season will run with it. Now that I have fit it into what you wanted a seprate season i should be able to get Your signature on the petition for this new season.
Please let me know where i can see ya at to get your signature, I am saving the first line just for you.:D

separate


Main Entry:1sep·a·rate http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?separa03.wav=separate'))Pronunciation: \ˈse-p(ə-)ˌrāt\ Function:verb Inflected Form(s):sep·a·rat·ed; sep·a·rat·ingEtymology:Middle English, from Latin separatus, past participle of separare, from se- apart + parare to prepare, procure — more at secede (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/secede), pare (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pare)Date:15th century transitive verb1 a: to set or keep apart : disconnect (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disconnect), sever (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sever) b: to make a distinction between : discriminate (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discriminate), distinguish (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/distinguish) <separate religion from magic> c: sort (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sort) <separate mail> d: to disperse in space or time : scatter (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scatter) <widely separated homesteads>2archaic : to set aside for a special purpose : choose (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/choose), dedicate (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dedicate)3: to part by a legal separation: a: to sever conjugal ties with b: to sever contractual relations with : discharge (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discharge) <was separated from the army> 4: to block off : segregate (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/segregate)5 a: to isolate from a mixture : extract (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/extract) <separate cream from milk> b: to divide into constituent parts6: to dislocate (as a shoulder) especially in sportsintransitive verb1: to become divided or detached2 a: to sever an association : withdraw (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/withdraw) b: to cease to live together as a married couple3: to go in different directions4: to become isolated from a mixture <the crystals separated out>

[Tom (mich)]

Deer shot with an arrow dies from blood loss and/or lung collapse..
Both of which result in shock - in each case hemorrhagic shock. Semantical argument...

[Swamp Ghost]

Bull....

The "biggest challenge" to a bowhunter is getting within striking distance (40 yards is getting a good piece out there for most bowhunters) of the game we are pursuing. That is true no matter what piece of archery gear we have in our hands.

The drawing in the presence of game is a pretty flimsy spot to take a stand on.

Drawing/Shooting in the Presence of Game


The crossbow does have a slight advantage in this area. The string is back in a firing position before game is approaching. How much of an advantage is debatable as several things come into play.

1) Being 20 to 25 foot up a tree when attempting to draw a compound bow will lessen a deer’s ability to see you.

2) Bows are usually 75 to 90 percent let off so one can draw on a deer much sooner and hold longer to make a killing shot with less worry about the deer seeing you. Mike Beatty drew and held on the new world record non-typical buck for a full 3 minute before making the shot. That bow was a 85% let off. There is a bow on the market that is 99% let off where one can draw the bow as soon as game is spotted and they can wait for however long it takes for that animal to approach the shooting area.

3) A number of hunters that use ground blinds are using a blind called Double Bull, “Doghouse”, etc that allows one to draw and shoot through a curtain and never be seen by the animal.

4) Most bowhunters learn when and when not to draw on a deer. IE – when it’s head is behind a bush or tree or allowing the deer to walk past them and shoot them quartering away.

Both pieces of equipment have to be raised into a shooting position. Only the compound has to be drawn. That draw should be straight back and covered somewhat by the bow and bow quiver (if one is on the bow). That is unless the person drawing the bow seriously over-bowed and has to horse it back with great exaggerated movements..

Regardless of the perceived advantage of “not having to draw back a crossbow” the kill percentages are identical for compounds and crossbows. THAT is where the rubber meets the road.

There are advantages and disadvantages to all pieces of archery equipment. None of the so called advantages is enough to say that one piece of archery equipment belongs in archery season and another doesn't.

Treestands and pop-up blinds are accessories, different topic.

Most bows 75-90% let-off -False
Crossbows are 100% let-off -True

Back to kill percentages, again. Muzzleloaders and pistols have lower success rates than a bow or crossbow, so with your logic those should be allowed in bowseason as well. OR I could post VA's success rates for crossbows which is higher than vertical bow's. You know, the only state that can track actual crossbow use and success rates due to their sale of a "crossbow" license.

NO scenario you can come up with will negate the advantage of not having to draw back and hold a bow at full draw in the presence of game.

Bow is a bow, crossbow is a crossbow. Different weapon, different season.

[BigBirdVA]

For all those that harp drawing in front of game how about shooting from a blind? Do you feel blinds should be illegal as well? Thought so.:confused:

I was a BIG anti-xbow person when VA. proposed them several years ago. I like most every anti-xbow basher had zero experience with one. All I ever heard or knew was the same crap you read over and over on the forums. So after they became legal I went and bought a cheap one to prove to all they were like I had read. Not everything you read on the internet is true. Xbows are one of those things. I was shocked to find it still took skill and practice to hit a deer at 20-30 yds. No way was I going to take a deer at 40 let alone longer yardages like the BS you read. So I bought a better xbow and hunted with it the whole first year. End of the season I had done no better than I did with my compound. After the stats came out from the first years use in VA I was not alone. They success rate was the same as compounds. We're now in year 3 of unlimited use in archery season and guess what? Nothing has changed. The deer kill is still the same for the state. Kids and older hunters can now hunt in archery season. Of course if you're a selfish hunter then all of this is very bad news. If you're worried someone might get "your deer" then again it's bad news. But if you're a true sportsman and want other to participate then it's good news.

All the xbow debates I've been in I've yet to have an anti tell me how a guy in the next wood lot using an xbow can negatively affect their hunt.

After xbows become legal, and they will so get used to it, you'll look back and see that it really doesn't make any difference at all.

[marty]

And a deer shot with a bullet doesn't?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_(medical)


Get two jugs of water. Shoot one with a bow/arrow and the next with a 30.06 rifle:yikes: That's all you need to know:evil:

[Swamp Ghost]

For all those that harp drawing in front of game how about shooting from a blind? Do you feel blinds should be illegal as well? Thought so.:confused:

I was a BIG anti-xbow person when VA. proposed them several years ago. I like most every anti-xbow basher had zero experience with one. All I ever heard or knew was the same crap you read over and over on the forums. So after they became legal I went and bought a cheap one to prove to all they were like I had read. Not everything you read on the internet is true. Xbows are one of those things. I was shocked to find it still took skill and practice to hit a deer at 20-30 yds. No way was I going to take a deer at 40 let alone longer yardages like the BS you read. So I bought a better xbow and hunted with it the whole first year. End of the season I had done no better than I did with my compound. After the stats came out from the first years use in VA I was not alone. They success rate was the same as compounds. We're now in year 3 of unlimited use in archery season and guess what? Nothing has changed. The deer kill is still the same for the state. Kids and older hunters can now hunt in archery season. Of course if you're a selfish hunter then all of this is very bad news. If you're worried someone might get "your deer" then again it's bad news. But if you're a true sportsman and want other to participate then it's good news.

All the xbow debates I've been in I've yet to have an anti tell me how a guy in the next wood lot using an xbow can negatively affect their hunt.

After xbows become legal, and they will so get used to it, you'll look back and see that it really doesn't make any difference at all.

Thanks for your opinion, from VA.

Accessories are a different topic.

VA crossbow success rates are higher, not that I care at all, because it means nothing.

Kids and older hunters are also a seperate topic.

Different weapon, different season.

A true sportsman? A true sportsman gets out and hunts, a true sportsman doesn't sit around waiting for the rules to change.

[Swamp Ghost]

Get two jugs of water. Shoot one with a bow/arrow and the next with a 30.06 rifle:yikes: That's all you need to know:evil:

Deer aren't jugs of water.

[Munsterlndr]

Accessories are a different topic.

Kids and older hunters are also a seperate topic.

Different weapon, different season.

A true sportsman? A true sportsman gets out and hunts, a true sportsman doesn't sit around waiting for the rules to change.

Accessories contribute to the success or failure and as such are certainly germane to this discussion. Interesting how you try and frame the debate whenever something contradicts your point of view. ;)

Kids & disabled are merely sub-sets of the hunting population. Again, your framing technique is pretty obvious. Ignore anything you can't contradict and insist it's another topic.

There is as much technical and practical difference between long bows and compounds as there is between crossbows and vertical bows. It's simply a matter of degree. They are all varieties of bows.

No need for a separate season because a crossbow is simply a variety of bow and it's functionality (relatively quiet, using a bladed arrow) approximates the existing weapon in archery season.

Did "True Sportsmen" get out and hunt with vertical bows prior to 1938? Less than 200 hundred of them. Archery season is the perfect example o the "build it and they will come" theory. If vertical bow hunting was limited to a season that was concurrent with the two week firearms season just how many "True Sportsmen" would continue to hunt with their bow instead of a firearm? Not too many, I'm guessing. ;)

[langkg]

Ah-yes, the murky crossbow debate. I think the original post was articulated very well and there are certainly two schools of thought with hunters these days. Fortunatly or unfortunatly this debate will not be resolved here. There was another thread where the poster sent out a convienent link to state reps. I'd encourage everyone that has an opinion (either way) to contact his/her rep. I've written and have let them know that I believe the laws are correct as currently written. I'm not opposed to hunters using crossbows - it should be a seperate season (currently firearms season which is fine). I suppose I'll now be called all sorts of nasty names, etc but I'm only one person that will shape the future of the regs. Contact your reps.

[wildcoy73]

How did I know Swamp Ghost would not go for the season I asked for. Your oks with the muzzle loader season and say it is a seprate season, but when we talk about doing the same set-up for crossbow you go pull a definition out of a book. Oka I am game. we hunt from the last week of september to the first day of january as stated for 2008. That is 99 days we can hunt deer. Weapons we want Compound bow, recurve bow, long bow,crossbow, muzzle loader(flint), muzzle loader in-line, rifles, shotguns, handguns. I believe I listed all the weapons we are hunting with in Michigan, that makes 9 diffrent season, need to be fair to all on the new seprate season. 9/99=11. oka so each weapon will get an 11 day season.
Now does that make you happy? Bet not! You will come up with some bull to say this is off topic and not a fair system to go with, but it is the fairest of all it give everyone a seprate and a season to themselves.

[TOW]

Treestands and pop-up blinds are accessories, different topic..

Wow... you're starting to sounds a lot like Obama as to what we can and can not discuss.

The subject is drawing in the presence of deer. These so called by you "accessories" negate that drawing of a bow in the presence of deer. So if you are beating the "draw" drum, against crossbows then you must also beat that same drum against anything that hides that draw..


Most bows 75-90% let-off -False

Are you a bowhunter? Take a look at all the 85% let off bows out there. Why do you think that Pope and Yopung dropped their 65% let off rule?

Crossbows are 100% let-off -True

Not really. Each crossbow may be held by a triggering device but none of them break over 100%.

Back to kill percentages, again. Muzzleloaders and pistols have lower success rates than a bow or crossbow, so with your logic those should be allowed in bowseason as well.

LOL.... BZZTTT! show me where a muzzleloader or a pistol launches an arrow with the power of bent limbs and I'll agree with that. Archery is archery and neither a muzzleloader or a pistol qualifies..

OR I could post VA's success rates for crossbows which is higher than vertical bow's. You know, the only state that can track actual crossbow use and success rates due to their sale of a "crossbow" license.

Post it. Last I saw it was 1% difference that can flucuate year to year.. That difference is in comparison to compounds AND traditional bows success. I think if it was just compared to compounds that gap would close significantly.

I think that you will find that most crossbow proponents say that if the archery season was still stick and string ONLY that we would not have a leg to stand on. However, with the technological advances of compounds there is no reason in the world to not consider crossbows for archery season.

As I stated earlier I have hunted and killed animalswith all three kinds of archery equipment and the differences in the compound bowhunting and crossbow bowhunting is minimal. There is a HUGE difference in crossbow and compund versus stick bows. There isn't a dimes worth of difference between a crossbow and a tricked out high tech, high let off compound.

NO scenario you can come up with will negate the advantage of not having to draw back and hold a bow at full draw in the presence of game.

Have you ever hunted deer with a crossbow? There are advantages and disadvantages to each piece of archery equipment. None of the so called advantages is enough to keep that piece of equipment out of the archery season.

It has become readily apparent that most anti-crossbowers want to draw the line of what is acceptabe exactly where they are in equipment use. IOW - "I'm in and your out because of what we shoot".

But, we do have to ask ourselves - is any of the so called advantages actually taking advantage of the game we are pursuing? Of course the answer to that is a resounding NO.

It appears what you are afraid of is a crossbower might just have an advantage on YOU and just might take YOUR deer. That crossbower has to hunt that deer EXACTLY like you do. A crossbow is not a magical piece of equipment that will make deer go deaf, dumb and blind and easy to kill.

Bow is a bow, crossbow is a crossbow. Different weapon, different season

The very same thing was said when compounds hit the scene. There are still a fair number of traditional archers that say a compound is a machine and doesn't qualify as a bow in their eyes.

Fortunately YOU do not get to decide what is a legal "bow" to hunt with.

[Munsterlndr]

The very same thing was said when compounds hit the scene. There are still a fair number of traditional archers that say a compound is a machine and doesn't qualify as a bow in their eyes.

Excellent point. I had to laugh at some of the comments that were posted in a thread over on Leatherwall the other day, which make your point exactly. An awful lot of Trad bow guys hold compound shooters in almost the same degree of contempt that they do crossbows. The Elitist attitude of "mine is the only legitimate method" is still alive and well in the bow hunting fraternity. Hardly surprising that Trad Bow hunters are the most vocal in opposition to crossbows. Here are a couple of quotes from that thread that crack me up.

"compounds aint bows. ther contraptions"

"I gots no problem with compound bows, just the guys that use them"

and this picture which just made me laugh.


http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc112/Munsterlndr/sac.jpg

[Liv4Huntin']

GOOD ONE !!!! :lol:
~ m ~

[BigBirdVA]

Thanks for your opinion, from VA.

Accessories are a different topic.

VA crossbow success rates are higher, not that I care at all, because it means nothing.

Kids and older hunters are also a seperate topic.

Different weapon, different season.

A true sportsman? A true sportsman gets out and hunts, a true sportsman doesn't sit around waiting for the rules to change.Hey how about proving that one? I've followed it and it's less than 1% difference. Next.

More and more states are seeing through the anti-xbow argument and are allowing their use. It's coming, get used to it.

[2PawsRiver]

An awful lot of Trad bow guys hold compound shooters in almost the same degree of contempt that they do crossbows.

I don't know if contempt is the right word, though maybe it is, but they stand on pretty solid ground.

It takes more skill to be a successful traditional hunter, then it does to be a successful compound hunter, and again less skill to be a sucessful Compoundbow Hunter...................I guess it all depends on where you draw the line between a man that truly hunts and somebody that just kills deer.

I am against Crossbows, have wrote those that will make the decision, and when they come I will lose no sleep over it.

I agree they are coming. Hunting has evolved into a sport that is populated mostly by people who hunt, not true hunters.

[Swamp Ghost]

Hey how about proving that one? I've followed it and it's less than 1% difference. Next.

More and more states are seeing through the anti-xbow argument and are allowing their use. It's coming, get used to it.

1% is in fact different, is it not? No biggy, as I said before it doesn't matter.

How is your hunter numbers doing?

[skipper34]

I don't know if contempt is the right word, though maybe it is, but they stand on pretty solid ground.

It takes more skill to be a successful traditional hunter, then it does to be a successful compound hunter, and again less skill to be a sucessful Compoundbow Hunter...................I guess it all depends on where you draw the line between a man that truly hunts and somebody that just kills deer.

I am against Crossbows, have wrote those that will make the decision, and when they come I will lose no sleep over it.

I agree they are coming. Hunting has evolved into a sport that is populated mostly by people who hunt, not true hunters.

Mark, please give us your definition of a "true hunter".

[2PawsRiver]

Mark, please give us your definition of a "true hunter".

No way, would take up way too much time, insult way too many people and quite frankly is not something that is defined. I will add though that being a True Hunter is a symtem of being truely an Outdoorsman. Won't define that for the same reasons, but they are getting real scarce, of course that is just my opinion.

[BigBirdVA]

1% is in fact different, is it not? No biggy, as I said before it doesn't matter.

How is your hunter numbers doing?Actually it was less than 1%. Also stick bows are in with compounds in license sales which is how they track the numbers. I would venture to say stick bows are not as successful as compound hunters so the actual numbers would probably show compound hunters to be slightly more successful. The big picture is that 1% , for you, is too much more if in fact it is even more. That in itself is another issue. I don't think any amount of posting is going to fix that. You've reached a whole new level in hunter greed if less than 1% is too much for you. :yikes:


We've picked up a few more bowhunters but with millions of acres in VA the numbers are a like drop of water in the ocean. No one I've talked to or even posts on other VA forums have come up with any negative responses. I've yet to have anyone state that someone hunting with an xbow has negatively affected their hunting.

The crux is guys like you just don't get it. Never will. That's why more states are allowing xbow use every day. They see right through your emotionally based argument.

[Swamp Ghost]

Actually it was less than 1%. Also stick bows are in with compounds in license sales which is how they track the numbers. I would venture to say stick bows are not as successful as compound hunters so the actual numbers would probably show compound hunters to be slightly more successful. The big picture is that 1% , for you, is too much more if in fact it is even more. That in itself is another issue. I don't think any amount of posting is going to fix that. You've reached a whole new level in hunter greed if less than 1% is too much for you. :yikes:


We've picked up a few more bowhunters but with millions of acres in VA the numbers are a like drop of water in the ocean. No one I've talked to or even posts on other VA forums have come up with any negative responses. I've yet to have anyone state that someone hunting with an xbow has negatively affected their hunting.

The crux is guys like you just don't get it. Never will. That's why more states are allowing xbow use every day. They see right through your emotionally based argument.

Like I said the even if it was 1%,5% OR 50% IT WOULDN'T MATTER.

I seem to recall the VA has lost 17,000 hunters since the crossbow became legal, true? Yes or no?

I'll take an emotional based argument over one based on misrepresented estimates, surveys, "logical conclusions" who's aim is to enable the most unmotivated segment of license holders. At an least the emotion based opinion retains a degree of integrity.

[wildcoy73]

So we are lossing hunters, you have made that a big point swamp. But what does this have to do with crossbows for all? Not a thing. Michigan keep losing hunter due to poor areas to hunt, high lease price, high gas price, low wages, very restrictive accomodations for weaker hunters, job loss, and people moving.
If this new rule keeps just 1 hunter in the woods than it will be worth the fight. that one hunter is a diffrent.
Times will never be like the past, and as a nation people are enjoying other activities. If you take a good look you will also note that video games came out about the same time hunter numbers fell. also youth and young age crime also increase in those same years. So again if allowing the crossbow takes one kid off the streets or the couch it is a well worth it fight.
Now we can all agree that it will bring in more youths than one and it will also keep the babby boomers ( largest section of our hunters) in the woods longer. Our numbers will be dropping for another 10 to 30 years before they will start to rise again. We can not ever replace the babby boomers They were to big of a group for new hunters to replace.

[Swamp Ghost]

So we are lossing hunters, you have made that a big point swamp. But what does this have to do with crossbows for all? Not a thing. Michigan keep losing hunter due to poor areas to hunt, high lease price, high gas price, low wages, very restrictive accomodations for weaker hunters, job loss, and people moving.
If this new rule keeps just 1 hunter in the woods than it will be worth the fight. that one hunter is a diffrent.
Times will never be like the past, and as a nation people are enjoying other activities. If you take a good look you will also note that video games came out about the same time hunter numbers fell. also youth and young age crime also increase in those same years. So again if allowing the crossbow takes one kid off the streets or the couch it is a well worth it fight.
Now we can all agree that it will bring in more youths than one and it will also keep the babby boomers ( largest section of our hunters) in the woods longer. Our numbers will be dropping for another 10 to 30 years before they will start to rise again. We can not ever replace the babby boomers They were to big of a group for new hunters to replace.

None of the above will be helped with unrestricted crossbow use and can be accomplished with what is currently available to MI hunters.

[10PtCrossbow]

Ghost,
You are correct in your numbers out of VA, they have lost about 17,000 over the last 3 years, this, sadly, goes along with the common nationwide trend. Bow hunters have dropped about 10,000 and crossbows have added 20,000. So at a glance, it looks like 10,000 of the archers switched over to a crossbow. And it also seems that if there is n grass roots demand for crossbows, there would not be 20,000 people using them.

[Swamp Ghost]

Ghost,
You are correct in your numbers out of VA, they have lost about 17,000 over the last 3 years, this, sadly, goes along with the common nationwide trend. Bow hunters have dropped about 10,000 and crossbows have added 20,000. So at a glance, it looks like 10,000 of the archers switched over to a crossbow. And it also seems that if there is n grass roots demand for crossbows, there would not be 20,000 people using them.

Sadly, the crossbow didn't help with that 17,000. Nor will it help here.

In some parts there is a grass roots demand for ML's in bowseason. I wonder how crossbow guys in VA or OH would feel about that?

[10PtCrossbow]

Ghost,
The Vertical bow harvest in OH from 2002-2006 has increased by 6,000 as well. That is not crossbow harvest, that is vertical bow harvest. I guess the crossbow users are not killing all the deer either. In that same time span, crossbow harvest has gone up only 5,000. How could that be???? With having the crossbow in the seasons for 30 years there should be no vertical bowhunters left and certainly no deer, at least not any bucks!!!:confused::confused::dizzy: :lol:

[wildcoy73]

None of the above will be helped with unrestricted crossbow use and can be accomplished with what is currently available to MI hunters.
If that was true My grandfather would not of had to hang up his bow years before he past away. My own father would not of had to miss out on sevral years of the archery season for being a disable vet, while jumping threw all the red tape to get a permit. If it was true my ten year old daughter would beable to hunt with a crossbow, and enjoy her first year of deer hunting.
But what you state is false. People can not just go out and enjoy the woods.
Not everyone can hunt with a bow. It does take a strenght to pull them back. My wifes doctor will not let her pull her bow back at 45 lbs for it has torn her muscle sevral times, but can she get a crossbow permit? NO. So where is the current rules allowing us all to enjoy deer hunting in October?

[10PtCrossbow]

Ghost,
They would feel like a firearm belongs in firearms season and archery belongs in archery season. Things that shoot arrows are archery, things that require combustion and use "fire" should go in firearms seaons. Things that go bang and are loaded from the muzzle go in the muzzleloader season. Common sense.:eek:

[Joe Archer]

I hunt from the same tree stand with a rifle that I do with my bow. Even though most of my gun kills are within 30 yards, taking a deer with a rifle isn't nearly as rewarding to me as taking one with my bow.
The argument that cross-bows are difficult because "they have to be lifted and held in the presence of the deer" doesn't really hold water either. All you have to do is rest one on a branch (or small window opening of a blind) overlooking a pile of carrots at 20 yards. Heck, you could just have it sitting there with the safety off ready to rock and roll. Sure, you can do the same thing with a rifle or shotgun, but a bow needs to be lifted and drawn when you are ready to shoot.
Even with the vast requirement differences in hunting technique, what really tugs at the heart strings for me is what will be lost. I love archery, plain and simple. It saddens me to envision the new generation of "bow hunters" that might really be clueless to what archery is really all about. Sure this is guided predominantly by passion and emotion, but who here isn't passionate about hunting?
For example, if we were talking about allowing night hunting with spotlights for deer to better control the population, or bringing in snipers to take out a local deer population; who among us wouldn't passionately object?
<----<<<

[Swamp Ghost]

Ghost,
The Vertical bow harvest in OH from 2002-2006 has increased by 6,000 as well. That is not crossbow harvest, that is vertical bow harvest. I guess the crossbow users are not killing all the deer either. In that same time span, crossbow harvest has gone up only 5,000. How could that be???? With having the crossbow in the seasons for 30 years there should be no vertical bowhunters left and certainly no deer, at least not any bucks!!!:confused::confused::dizzy: :lol:

Now is that increase from the segment of hunters that hunted with a vertical bow "at least 1 time"? That's right! Hunt with a vertical bow once a season and then hunt the rest of the season with a crossbow and OH considers you a vertical bowhunter. :confused:

By the OHDNR's own admission, hunters over the age of 50 are the only segment of hunters that readily admit to hunting with a crossbow, the rest want to pass themselves off as bowhunters, even though quite the opposite is true.

Crossbowhunter growth far exceeds bowhunter growth in OH.

[SpawnSac27]

If that was true My grandfather would not of had to hang up his bow years before he past away. My own father would not of had to miss out on sevral years of the archery season for being a disable vet, while jumping threw all the red tape to get a permit. If it was true my ten year old daughter would beable to hunt with a crossbow, and enjoy her first year of deer hunting.
But what you state is false. People can not just go out and enjoy the woods.
Not everyone can hunt with a bow. It does take a strenght to pull them back. My wifes doctor will not let her pull her bow back at 45 lbs for it has torn her muscle sevral times, but can she get a crossbow permit? NO. So where is the current rules allowing us all to enjoy deer hunting in October?


:yeahthat: All great points. Bring on the crossbows!!!

[HunterHawk]

very well put Joe

[Swamp Ghost]

If that was true My grandfather would not of had to hang up his bow years before he past away. My own father would not of had to miss out on sevral years of the archery season for being a disable vet, while jumping threw all the red tape to get a permit. If it was true my ten year old daughter would beable to hunt with a crossbow, and enjoy her first year of deer hunting.
But what you state is false. People can not just go out and enjoy the woods.
Not everyone can hunt with a bow. It does take a strenght to pull them back. My wifes doctor will not let her pull her bow back at 45 lbs for it has torn her muscle sevral times, but can she get a crossbow permit? NO. So where is the current rules allowing us all to enjoy deer hunting in October?

Separate topic, disabled/elderly use.

[wildcoy73]

Joe you bring out a good point with night hunting. Sign me up for that hunt. You more than likly work days and enjoy your sport on your shift. I work 3rds so I am up at night, so i should be given the same consideration you are given to enjoy my hobby durring my waking hours. Of this I will need to prove I work third shift and get a permit to enjoy this hunt. To every thing that goes on some will go with it others will not. But with crossbow we are not talking about a few we are talking about a bow. This is not a new way of hunting. It is already allowed in the archery season for some. so we need to allow it to all.

[Swamp Ghost]

Ghost,
They would feel like a firearm belongs in firearms season and archery belongs in archery season. Things that shoot arrows are archery, things that require combustion and use "fire" should go in firearms seaons. Things that go bang and are loaded from the muzzle go in the muzzleloader season. Common sense.:eek:

Now we are separating based on the noise they make? Isn't there a gun that uses .22 caliber rounds and/or compressed air and shoots arrows?

How about we separate all the weapons that have to be cocked and/or require a safety in their own seasons and the ones that have to be drawn in their own? Oh that's right, MI already does. Talk about common sense....geesshhh, not so common anymore ;)

[wildcoy73]

Now we are separating based on the noise they make? Isn't there a gun that uses .22 caliber rounds and/or compressed air and shoots arrows?

How about we separate all the weapons that have to be cocked and/or require a safety in their own seasons and the ones that have to be drawn in their own? Oh that's right, MI already does.
Thats what we are after crossbows are drawn to a full draw. Thanks for seeing it this way. Looks to me your foot is in your mouth once again. Crossbows are drawn not loaded:lol:

[10PtCrossbow]

Joe,
Well put, I agree.
I worked in a retail archery shop for almost a decade. On more then one occasion, I had a guy come in about 3 days before archery season and want a compound bow because he was going to hunt with his buddies. He wanted it "bore" sighted. I also had guys come in and request the same but with a crossbow. I was much more comfortable with the guy getting the crossbow because he had a better chance of getting a clean harvest as opposed to wounding a deer with a compound. If he got a kill, he was more apt to stick with the sport. What I also saw is guys that would buy a crossbow one year and love it. I would see them several times during the course of that season. Then, the next year, or the year after, that guy comes back and buys a compound bow because he wants a little more challenge. Guess what, the vertical bow guys just expanded there ranks DUE TO THE CROSSBOW. Ghost says that crossbow growth expanded way faster then vertical bows. He is correct, but what he leaves out is compound bow numbers expanded as well.
Every fall I get a lot of pictures of young kids that got their first archery kill with a crossbow. They would not have been able to do it with a compound. They have a huge smile on their faces and they are hooked for life! In the end, does it really matter if they shot it with a compound or a crossbow? No. What matters is they are out there hunting! They will grow up hunting and hopefully pass it on to their kids!

[Swamp Ghost]

Thats what we are after crossbows are drawn to a full draw. Thanks for seeing it this way. Looks to me your foot is in your mouth once again. Crossbows are drawn not loaded:lol:

I can't wait to see you manually draw that 150-250# crossbow and then hold it at full draw without the assistance of it's "trigger mechanism".

Anyone got a video camera?

[wildcoy73]

Separate topic, disabled/elderly use.
No this is not a seprate issue. if one person is missed by any rule set forth by an elderly or disable permit that is to many. By taking that away no one will be left behind. It has been proven that the permit system is a joke and we need to get rid of it. Only way to do this is to allow every one to choose what bow they use.

[10PtCrossbow]

How about we separate all the weapons that have to be cocked and/or require a safety in their own seasons and the ones that have to be drawn in their own? Oh that's right, MI already does. Talk about common sense....geesshhh, not so common anymore ;)

Swamp,
Nobody is buying your airgun bit. It does not propel the arrow from bent limbs and string like regular archery equipment. Sorry if I left that out of my previous post. You are really grasping at straws because that is all you have.

I understand that a crossbow is not drawn in the presnece of game. Nobody is going to argue that. The crossbow is easier to master if you have shot guns before, but that is not the hard part of the hunt. The woodsmanship and skill of getting close to the animal is the difficult part.

You are really trying to make this a much bigger issue then it is. Your season will not be altered if crossbows are added to the archery season.

[Swamp Ghost]

No this is not a seprate issue. if one person is missed by any rule set forth by an elderly or disable permit that is to many. By taking that away no one will be left behind. It has been proven that the permit system is a joke and we need to get rid of it. Only way to do this is to allow every one to choose what bow they use.

It is a separate issue, existing legislation can be modified for different segments of the hunting populace.

No need for new legislation, but some just can't help themselves and have to get a piece of that pie.

[wildcoy73]

I can't wait to see you manually draw that 150-250# crossbow and then hold it at full draw without the assistance of it's "trigger mechanism".

Anyone got a video camera?
So what is the diffrent between that and the trigger I use on my compound?
You can ask a few on this site what I was using back in 1988. Most men could not pull my bow back at that time. And one of them was a boddy builder. give me the new let off we have today and yes i can do it. 150lbs with 99% let off hmmm i am holding back what 1lb. not to hard to do. Bring on the bow. you put out the challenge, so you must buy this bow for me.
I am right handed 29inch draw. I also will be needing a few thing for i will be making my own release for i do not care for the one's on the market today. I'll even bring the news out to wath you eat your words.

[Swamp Ghost]

Swamp,
Nobody is buying your airgun bit. It does not propel the arrow from bent limbs and string like regular archery equipment. Sorry if I left that out of my previous post. You are really grasping at straws because that is all you have.



But is shouldered, aimed, rested like a crossbow, it also has the same effective range and I would imagine similar success rates as a bow.

Legalize that thing! :lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

So what is the diffrent between that and the trigger I use on my compound?
You can ask a few on this site what I was using back in 1988. Most men could not pull my bow back at that time. And one of them was a boddy builder. give me the new let off we have today and yes i can do it. 150lbs with 99% let off hmmm i am holding back what 1lb. not to hard to do. Bring on the bow. you put out the challenge, so you must buy this bow for me.
I am right handed 29inch draw. I also will be needing a few thing for i will be making my own release for i do not care for the one's on the market today. I'll even bring the news out to wath you eat your words.

I just walk next door and get my neighbors 175# recurve limbed Horton and you can use your "release" with it. We'll see what the difference is.

[2PawsRiver]

Just as an update.............spoke my mind, but agreeably I am in the minority.

Dear Mark:

House Bill 5741 was adopted by the House Tourism, Outdoor Recreation and Natural Resources Committee today with an overwhelming majority of the committee members in support of the bill. An H-2 version of the bill was adopted allowing crossbow use in any season and for any game in which a compound bow may be used. This version would give Michigan hunters the same rights as hunters in neighboring Ohio and Ontario. I recognize your opposition to this bill. Over the many months in which I have reviewed this issue, my opinion on crossbows has changed. I can find no compelling reason to restrict crossbow use in the archery season only to people who are permanently disabled or even those above a certain age. We may have to simply agree to disagree on this issue. My vote on this issue is what I feel is in the best long-term interest of Michigan hunting.

Michigan hunting is in a crisis. Over the past decade, the number of archery deer hunters in our state has declined from 380,000 to 300,000. Michigan continues to lose hunters at a rate higher than the national average. All the states surrounding Michigan have crossbow laws that are more permissive than Michigan's. The national trend is toward full inclusion rather than age or disability restrictions. Louisiana and South Carolina just adopted full inclusion and Delaware is about to. As I said above, our neighbors in Ohio and Ontario already benefit from full inclusion.

Data from states allowing full inclusion show a greater rate of hunter retention during their archery seasons but no state has experienced an explosion of crossbow hunters. No state allowing full inclusion has found it necessary to restrict season length to address a negative management impact. In addition, hunter accident rates between crossbow users and vertical bow users are nearly identical.

The mechanics and ballistics of a crossbow are very similar to a compound bow. Both use the energy store in the drawn limbs of the bow to create a rapid motion when the string is released to propel an arrow toward a target. The performance of crossbows and compound bows are very different than the performance of firearms.

I recognize the arguments about tradition and that many people feel crossbows are not challenging enough. But allowing some hunters to use crossbows is not going to take away the personal traditions of other hunters. Similar arguments were made when the compound bow was legalized several decades ago. Yet, many bow hunters still enjoy using long bows and recurve bows rather than compound bows. Rather than arguing about what is a bow and what isn't a bow and what bows should be allowed in archery season, all bow hunters should step back and realize the threat hunting faces in our state due to the steady decline in the number of hunters in the field in October and November.

Sincerely,

Joel Sheltrown
State Representative
103rd House District

[wildcoy73]

I just walk next door and get my neighbors 175# recurve limbed Horton and you can use your "release" with it. We'll see what the difference is.
:lol::lol:your full of it. you just proven that it can be done by your neighbor, first I am unaware of anyone offer a bow of that draw weight. and second the issue is compounds and crossbows. you supply me the bow with what i said and i will take your challenge. If you can not produce than do not offer such a challenge. Many of us I have seen your full of it and with every argument you want to change the subject.
I am 99% sure that you do not make your own bow and arrows or for that your own broadhead. so you realy have no legs to stand on with this fight. those that do go to the extrem to make thier own stuff for hunting do have an argument, but any compound, sight, release, or metal broadhead user have no right to fight this bill. You are using things that are not in the tradition of archery hunting.

[Swamp Ghost]

:lol::lol:your full of it. you just proven that it can be done by your neighbor, first I am unaware of anyone offer a bow of that draw weight. and second the issue is compounds and crossbows. you supply me the bow with what i said and i will take your challenge. If you can not produce than do not offer such a challenge. Many of us I have seen your full of it and with every argument you want to change the subject.
I am 99% sure that you do not make your own bow and arrows or for that your own broadhead. so you realy have no legs to stand on with this fight. those that do go to the extrem to make thier own stuff for hunting do have an argument, but any compound, sight, release, or metal broadhead user have no right to fight this bill. You are using things that are not in the tradition of archery hunting.


I suggest you go back, re-read what I wrote and let it sink in.

[marty]

I just walk next door and get my neighbors 175# recurve limbed Horton and you can use your "release" with it. We'll see what the difference is.

no release needed. If one is in shape he'd should be good to pull this back providing you're talking a xbow .

BTW don't try to pull a crossbow with a bow type release. Someone could get hurt:rant: and that's no BS:rant:

[Swamp Monster]

Um, hey Wild.....Ghost is talking about his neighbors 175# HORTON crossbow, not a vertical recurve real bow. Horton, makers of crossbows and new this year compund bows (well not new...old CSS bows rebadged) makes a 175# recurve crossbow. I thought you crossbow guys at least had knowledge of crossbow makes and models.

[Swamp Monster]

BTW don't try to pull a crossbow with a bow type release. Someone could get hurt:rant: and that's no BS:rant:

Very true. Bow releases are not rated for the kind of draw weight offered by crossbows and a dry fire is a likely result.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

Um, hey Wild.....Ghost is talking about his neighbors 175# HORTON crossbow, not a vertical recurve real bow. Horton, makers of crossbows and new this year compund bows (well not new...old CSS bows rebadged) makes a 175# recurve crossbow. I thought you crossbow guys at least had knowledge of crossbow makes and models.

NOPE, no knowledge of them. just kill deer with them horton legend 175 lb arrow throwing crossbows:evilsmile

[Swamp Monster]

NOPE, no knowledge of them. just kill deer with them horton legend 175 lb arrow throwing crossbows:evilsmile

Heck, if your going to use a crossbow, you may as well use the M16/AR15 of the crossbow world....complete with picatinny tactical rail!!! (makes mounting that 180 lumen tactical light that much easier!) Heck, with that 4x scope, a 150# deer at 30 yards ought to look like a freakin' Water Buffalo!!

No, it's not a toy, it's real. And at $1500, only the serious tactical crossbow shooter need apply!
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SceneSevenDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=25502&scene7Path=BassPro%2f1498752_i-591071%3flayer%3dcomp%26wid%3d500%26hei%3d500%26fm t%3djpeg%26qlt%3d100%2c0%26op_sharpen%3d0%26resMod e%3dtrilin%26op_usm%3d0.0%2c1.0%2c0.0%2c0%26iccEmb ed%3d0&sourceName=images2%2fLago%2f1498752_i-591071.jpg&type=0&linkEnabled=false

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

no thanks. that is my fathers crossbow who just so happens to have been a masterbowman and one of the original mbh members who passed away on june 5th of this year. i will never buy a crossbow as long as i have his, it works just fine, thank you. this way he will forever be with me in the wilds and guide my every shot and its path to the target.

[marty]

Heck, if your going to use a crossbow, you may as well use the M16/AR15 of the crossbow world....complete with picatinny tactical rail!!! (makes mounting that 180 lumen tactical light that much easier!) Heck, with that 4x scope, a 150# deer at 30 yards ought to look like a freakin' Water Buffalo!!

No, it's not a toy, it's real. And at $1500, only the serious tactical crossbow shooter need apply!
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SceneSevenDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=25502&scene7Path=BassPro%2f1498752_i-591071%3flayer%3dcomp%26wid%3d500%26hei%3d500%26fm t%3djpeg%26qlt%3d100%2c0%26op_sharpen%3d0%26resMod e%3dtrilin%26op_usm%3d0.0%2c1.0%2c0.0%2c0%26iccEmb ed%3d0&sourceName=images2%2fLago%2f1498752_i-591071.jpg&type=0&linkEnabled=false


man that's really cool now if i had money to toss:evil: but it still kills the same as any other bow:D

[TOW]

Heck, if your going to use a crossbow, you may as well use the M16/AR15 of the crossbow world....complete with picatinny tactical rail!!! (makes mounting that 180 lumen tactical light that much easier!) Heck, with that 4x scope, a 150# deer at 30 yards ought to look like a freakin' Water Buffalo!!

No, it's not a toy, it's real. And at $1500, only the serious tactical crossbow shooter need apply!
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SceneSevenDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=25502&scene7Path=BassPro%2f1498752_i-591071%3flayer%3dcomp%26wid%3d500%26hei%3d500%26fm t%3djpeg%26qlt%3d100%2c0%26op_sharpen%3d0%26resMod e%3dtrilin%26op_usm%3d0.0%2c1.0%2c0.0%2c0%26iccEmb ed%3d0&sourceName=images2%2fLago%2f1498752_i-591071.jpg&type=0&linkEnabled=false

LOL....That's just chump change.

BYOB... Build Your Own Bow..

http://www.tenpointcrossbows.com/BYOB.asp

[wildcoy73]

swamp ghost you did say a a old fashion compound bow in this challenge. and than you go get a crossbow:confused:. Stick to the challenge that you offered up in the first place. Man you keep chasing your own tail. And as I stated if you can find a 150lb compound for me to take up your challenge I will be making my own custom release/ trigger.

[BigBirdVA]

Like I said the even if it was 1%,5% OR 50% IT WOULDN'T MATTER.

I seem to recall the VA has lost 17,000 hunters since the crossbow became legal, true? Yes or no?

I'll take an emotional based argument over one based on misrepresented estimates, surveys, "logical conclusions" who's aim is to enable the most unmotivated segment of license holders. At an least the emotion based opinion retains a degree of integrity.In case you just swam ashore all states are losing hunters. We lost them before the xbow and we'll keep losing them after. Nice try on the xbow made people quit hunting line of dookey. :dizzy:
That's a classic.

[Swamp Monster]

no thanks. that is my fathers crossbow who just so happens to have been a masterbowman and one of the original mbh members who passed away on june 5th of this year. i will never buy a crossbow as long as i have his, it works just fine, thank you. this way he will forever be with me in the wilds and guide my every shot and its path to the target.


Sorry about the loss of your father.....thats a tough deal.

[Swamp Ghost]

swamp ghost you did say a a old fashion compound bow in this challenge. and than you go get a crossbow:confused:. Stick to the challenge that you offered up in the first place. Man you keep chasing your own tail. And as I stated if you can find a 150lb compound for me to take up your challenge I will be making my own custom release/ trigger.


How about we separate all the weapons that have to be cocked and/or require a safety in their own seasons and the ones that have to be drawn in their own?

Is a crossbow cocked and locked with the help of a trigger mechanism? Does the crossbow require a safety?

Thats what we are after crossbows are drawn to a full draw.

I can't wait to see you manually draw that 150-250# crossbow and then hold it at full draw without the assistance of it's "trigger mechanism".

Anyone got a video camera?

So what is the diffrent between that and the trigger I use on my compound?



I just walk next door and get my neighbors 175# recurve limbed Horton and you can use your "release" with it. We'll see what the difference is.

[Swamp Monster]

LOL....That's just chump change.

BYOB... Build Your Own Bow..

http://www.tenpointcrossbows.com/BYOB.asp


Yeah, I have seen that. It's nothing to drop $2000 on a set up....which in my opinion is ridiculous for what you get. But, 20 years ago, I would have said spending $1000 on a fully rigged bow would be ridiculous as well.

My point was that if there were ever a crossbow that would be used to push the anti crossbow agenda, that M16 wannabe Horton would be the poster child! God willing I'll likely never use a crossbow unless necessary but if I were to, I'd probably go with the new Stryker line up from Bowtech.

[Swamp Ghost]

In case you just swam ashore all states are losing hunters. We lost them before the xbow and we'll keep losing them after. Nice try on the xbow made people quit hunting line of dookey. :dizzy:
That's a classic.


Nice misinterpretation.

I was inferring that the crossbow has not helped any state recruit or retain hunters.

Saying that they have is in fact a "line of dookey".

[BigBirdVA]

Is a crossbow cocked and locked with the help of a trigger mechanism? Does the crossbow require a safety?Is a compound holding the weight like a stick bow? The it's locked at full draw argument is followed by or associated with the "you don't have to draw on game" line. What about blinds where game can't see you no matter what you shoot? Are the anti xbow people also anti blind? Maybe they're just blind period?


Here's one. I have a friend that has vision issues. Can't see close without glasses. So he can't see pins and the deer at the same time. We've tried all kinds of pins and setups and I helped him trail more than 1 wounded deer we couldn't find. He would not meet the silly physical handicapped rules in any state. But he can't effectively shoot a compound. This spring, from a blind, he took his first spring gobbler. But I guess you and others would be happier if people like that stayed home? One day when the anti-hunters do their thing the anti-xbow people will look back and say "gee I wish we hadn't run off so many hunters with our selfish rules and actions. We could use support from ANY hunter right now".


Still the bottom line so many can't or won't see is it won't make any difference to you if they're legal. Different I mean that it won't affect your hunt, your seasons or your bag limit. Much ado over nothing.

[BigBirdVA]

Nice misinterpretation.

I was inferring that the crossbow has not helped any state recruit or retain hunters.

Saying that they have is in fact a "line of dookey".Pure BS. Read the vision issue guy. He gave up archery. Xbows gave it back. I've got 2 daughters that went xbow hunting with me. The one couldn't shoot a compound. Guess kids and winning them over to our side early doesn't count huh? The anti-hunter guys bombard kids. They know how important getting all kids, not just males, counts. Got a few more friends (3 right now to be specific) that are staying in archery because they can now just go buy a xbow, get their license and keep hunting. No "Doc can I please hunt" BS or hoops to jump through.

Xbows aren't bringing in mass numbers. It's adding a few. But to the few it is adding it's important to them. Guess a guy sitting in a tree that can't hit or won't take the shot is what some might prefer. They add to the hunter numbers but they're not out shooting "your deer" right? Add another to the list. A guy I know who hadn't taken a deer in many years with a compound. Took a nice 18" buck last year. But I guess I should be follow your lead and be upset in the manner he used his buck tags right? Speaking of tags you have unlimited or a finite amount of tags there? So explain how in detail it matters or affects your hunt how others utilize their deer tags?


The other side of your flawed argument is if xbows don't add numbers then what about the "it will add 100's of hunters in public land" line? Oops !!!!!! !:tdo12: Can't have it both ways. Make up your mind please.

[Swamp Ghost]

Is a compound holding the weight like a stick bow? The it's locked at full draw argument is followed by or associated with the "you don't have to draw on game" line. What about blinds where game can't see you no matter what you shoot? Are the anti xbow people also anti blind? Maybe they're just blind period?


Here's one. I have a friend that has vision issues. Can't see close without glasses. So he can't see pins and the deer at the same time. We've tried all kinds of pins and setups and I helped him trail more than 1 wounded deer we couldn't find. He would not meet the silly physical handicapped rules in any state. But he can't effectively shoot a compound. This spring, from a blind, he took his first spring gobbler. But I guess you and others would be happier if people like that stayed home? One day when the anti-hunters do their thing the anti-xbow people will look back and say "gee I wish we hadn't run off so many hunters with our selfish rules and actions. We could use support from ANY hunter right now".


Still the bottom line so many can't or won't see is it won't make any difference to you if they're legal. Different I mean that it won't affect your hunt, your seasons or your bag limit. Much ado over nothing.

Man you guys can't help but bring up a myriad of scenarios/excuses concerning disabled, elderly, youth and accessory issues.

It appears that crossbow advocates are anti-accessory:

this is directed at to the people that insist on bashing those of us who think that crossbows should be able to be used in bow season. would you give up your sights - releases - overdraws - stablizers - and compound bows to keep crossbows out of bow season. i doubt it very much. i also doubt that the ones gripeing the loudest have ever shot , much less hunted with , a bare recurve or long bow. i would also bet that most of you snap up every new little gadget that comes along to give you a better edge. it has been my experince that most of the gadgets are to make up for lack of experince or skill.

[Swamp Monster]

Here's one. I have a friend that has vision issues. Can't see close without glasses. So he can't see pins and the deer at the same time. We've tried all kinds of pins and setups and I helped him trail more than 1 wounded deer we couldn't find. He would not meet the silly physical handicapped rules in any state. But he can't effectively shoot a compound. This spring, from a blind, he took his first spring gobbler. But I guess you and others would be happier if people like that stayed home? One day when the anti-hunters do their thing the anti-xbow people will look back and say "gee I wish we hadn't run off so many hunters with our selfish rules and actions. We could use support from ANY hunter right now".


.

A simple red dot scope like a Pollington etc would have made is bow work just fine for him. With the proper information and set up, he would not have needed to drop out of bowhunting.

[TOW]

...........

It appears that crossbow advocates are anti-accessory:

Originally Posted by dburroak http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2161398#post2161398)
this is directed at to the people that insist on bashing those of us who think that crossbows should be able to be used in bow season. would you give up your sights - releases - overdraws - stablizers - and compound bows to keep crossbows out of bow season. i doubt it very much. i also doubt that the ones gripeing the loudest have ever shot , much less hunted with , a bare recurve or long bow. i would also bet that most of you snap up every new little gadget that comes along to give you a better edge. it has been my experince that most of the gadgets are to make up for lack of experince or skill
.

Nah, what we are saying is that is in answer to the antis who say we don't NEED a crossbow. Why do you all NEED all these accesories to hunt deer with? Why not just a stick and a string?

Why should the archery hunting limits be set at what you presently shoot and hunt with?

[Swamp Ghost]

Got a few more friends (3 right now to be specific) that are staying in archery because they can now just go buy a xbow, get their license and keep hunting.

Not only the folks that need one but the ones that don't. Now they can just pick up their x-bow and go hunting, very similar to what I do when I take my shotgun out of the cabinet and go rabbit hunting.


The other side of your flawed argument is if xbows don't add numbers then what about the "it will add 100's of hunters in public land" line? Oops !!!!!! !:tdo12: Can't have it both ways. Make up your mind please.

I mean is the crossbow goin to add hunters or not? You guys are making the claims. I guess that argument cuts both ways, now doesn't it.

[TOW]

A simple red dot scope like a Pollington etc would have made is bow work just fine for him. With the proper information and set up, he would not have needed to drop out of bowhunting.

He didn't drop out of bowhunting . He just changed archery gear.

[Swamp Ghost]

.

Nah, what we are saying is that is in answer to the antis who say we don't NEED a crossbow. Why do you all NEED all these accesories to hunt deer with? Why not just a stick and a string?

Why should the archery hunting limits be set at what you presently shoot and hunt with?

For that matter you don't need a bow, either.

Why should limits be set? The line has to be drawn somewhere.

Crossbowhunters need to draw lines of their own, in their own season and stop trying to blur/break the one in place.

[TOW]

...........
I mean is the crossbow goin to add hunters or not? You guys are making the claims. I guess that argument cuts both ways, now doesn't it.


Statement from Michael J. Budzik,Chief of the Ohio Department of Natural Resources' Division of Wildlife



"The Ohio Division of Wildlife supports the safe and responsible use of crossbows as a legitimate hunting device. Crossbows appear to be an important recruitment and retention tool for hunters in Ohio. We believe the crossbow has allowed for recruitment of new hunters in several categories - young hunters, women hunters, hunters with disabilities, and older hunters. Although crossbows are often criticized for being unsafe or ineffective,our records do not indicate there is any significant difference between crossbows and longbows in most respects. Crossbow seasons also create opportunities for people with disabilities, and those that cannot use a longbow or compound bow. In general, any new hunting device will be attractive to certain people. If we want more people to participate in hunting, we need to create more opportunities."

[November Sunrise]

the bottom line so many can't or won't see is it won't make any difference to you if they're legal. Different I mean that it won't affect your hunt, your seasons or your bag limit. Much ado over nothing.

Correct. The fears of those who are opposed to crossbow legalization will over time prove to be "much ado about nothing".

Incidentally, welcome to the site. Good to have you here.

[TOW]

For that matter you don't need a bow, either. Why should limits be set? The line has to be drawn somewhere.

"Need" is subjective isn't it? I believe that arcehry seasons NEEDS to stay archery season.

Crossbowhunters need to draw lines of their own, in their own season and stop trying to blur/break the one in place.

It has been proven time and time again in a good number of states that archery season is neither "blurred nor broke" by the inclusion of crossbows.

Fine on our "own season" as long as it is concurrent with the "archery season".

[November Sunrise]

Statement from Michael J. Budzik,Chief of the Ohio Department of Natural Resources' Division of Wildlife



"The Ohio Division of Wildlife supports the safe and responsible use of crossbows as a legitimate hunting device. Crossbows appear to be an important recruitment and retention tool for hunters in Ohio. We believe the crossbow has allowed for recruitment of new hunters in several categories - young hunters, women hunters, hunters with disabilities, and older hunters. Although crossbows are often criticized for being unsafe or ineffective,our records do not indicate there is any significant difference between crossbows and longbows in most respects. Crossbow seasons also create opportunities for people with disabilities, and those that cannot use a longbow or compound bow. In general, any new hunting device will be attractive to certain people. If we want more people to participate in hunting, we need to create more opportunities."




That's from Michael Tonkovich :).

[Swamp Ghost]

Statement from Michael J. Budzik,Chief of the Ohio Department of Natural Resources' Division of Wildlife



"We believe the crossbow has allowed for recruitment of new hunters in several categories - young hunters, women hunters, hunters with disabilities, and older hunters. Although crossbows are often criticized for being unsafe or ineffective,our records do not indicate there is any significant difference between crossbows and longbows in most respects. Crossbow seasons also create opportunities for people with disabilities, and those that cannot use a longbow or compound bow. In general, any new hunting device will be attractive to certain people. If we want more people to participate in hunting, we need to create more opportunities."


They "believe"? LOL! I'll take that as a "We don't know".:lol:

There is the disability card, AGAIN!

Ohio had to create more opportunity one way or the other due to their OBR and very short, shotgun only firearm season. MI already has more recreational deer hunting opportunities than Ohio.

[Swamp Ghost]

Xbows aren't bringing in mass numbers. It's adding a few. But to the few it is adding it's important to them. Guess a guy sitting in a tree that can't hit or won't take the shot is what some might prefer. They add to the hunter numbers but they're not out shooting "your deer" right? Add another to the list. A guy I know who hadn't taken a deer in many years with a compound. Took a nice 18" buck last year. But I guess I should be follow your lead and be upset in the manner he used his buck tags right? Speaking of tags you have unlimited or a finite amount of tags there? So explain how in detail it matters or affects your hunt how others utilize their deer tags?



Crossbows are legal in OH. So why would I care what an Ohio hunter uses?

Like I have said 100's of times, I WANT hunters to shoot MORE of MY deer, 90% of my harvests are DOE'S.

One second crossbows are going to stem the tide of declining numbers in MI and the next second bowhunters shouldn't worry because the increase will be a mere "blip"

What about the majority of bowhunters that are actively participating, I guess what's important to them is unimportant.

Lets make broad changes to the essence/dynamic of an established season to satisfy the desires of a few....... sounds fair:rolleyes:

[BigBirdVA]

For that matter you don't need a bow, either.

Why should limits be set? The line has to be drawn somewhere.

Crossbowhunters need to draw lines of their own, in their own season and stop trying to blur/break the one in place.Limits are and were set. Shoots an arrow tipped with a blade that is propelled by a string from a bent limb. Xbows are a 40 yd and under weapon. Just like my compound is. There is zero data or proof that it affects or has ever effected in a negative manner any game season or bag limit of any animal. The states are finally looking past the "my season, my deer" selfish whiners and passing xbows. Look at the numbers of states in the lat year that have figured it out. Dude I believed all the crap you spew a few years ago. I found out it isn't so. Much ado over nothing.

[BigBirdVA]

Crossbows are legal in OH. So why would I care what an Ohio hunter uses?

Like I have said 100's of times, I WANT hunters to shoot MORE of MY deer, 90% of my harvests are DOE'S.

One second crossbows are going to stem the tide of declining numbers in MI and the next second bowhunters shouldn't worry because the increase will be a mere "blip"

What about the majority of bowhunters that are actively participating, I guess what's important to them is unimportant.

Lets make broad changes to the essence/dynamic of an established season to satisfy the desires of a few....... sounds fair:rolleyes:

Hows this slant on it sound?
Lets restrict others to satisfy the desires of a few....... sounds fair:rolleyes:

Lets ask the majority of say, pot smokers how they feel? Nothing wrong right? Lets ask ALL the hunters how they feel. Let's ask all the residents how they feel. Truth be told the small % of members in the anti xbow groups do not represent the majority. Their numbers don't equal a majority and it's a group set up for whiners and selfish ones to promote their view and their's alone. PBS and the rest of the vocal anti-xbow groups do not equal a majority. Check the numbers of hunters vs anti-xbow numbers. It's like 10% maybe. This argument has come up long ago in the xbow debate. Sorry but I've heard your song long ago and know the tune well. It's not fact and data doesn't support it. Feelings however do. States work and make decisions off of data.

[BigBirdVA]

............ Lets make broad changes to the essence/dynamic of an established season to satisfy the desires of a few....... sounds fair:rolleyes: That's what was said when they made compounds legal years ago. Now tell me how badly that move went? Same scenario for xbows is happening today.

You'll get over it when you see first hand nothing happened when xbows become legal. Here today no one gives a hoot or says a word about it. It's actually very quiet when the word xbow is mentioned. No one likes to be reminded they were wrong.

[Swamp Ghost]

That's what was said when they made compounds legal years ago. Now tell me how badly that move went? Same scenario for xbows is happening today.

You'll get over it when you see first hand nothing happened when xbows become legal. Here today no one gives a hoot or says a word about it. It's actually very quiet when the word xbow is mentioned. No one likes to be reminded they were wrong.

It is an entirely different issue.

You are talking about concerns that were involved with the evolution of the bow.

I am talking about the addition of a much different weapon.

[Swamp Ghost]

Lets ask the majority of say, pot smokers how they feel? Nothing wrong right? Lets ask ALL the hunters how they feel. Let's ask all the residents how they feel. Truth be told the small % of members in the anti xbow groups do not represent the majority. Their numbers don't equal a majority and it's a group set up for whiners and selfish ones to promote their view and their's alone. PBS and the rest of the vocal anti-xbow groups do not equal a majority. Check the numbers of hunters vs anti-xbow numbers. It's like 10% maybe. This argument has come up long ago in the xbow debate. Sorry but I've heard your song long ago and know the tune well. It's not fact and data doesn't support it. Feelings however do. States work and make decisions off of data.

We aren't talking about pot.

Please provide your numbers. There is a big difference between people that favor allowing crossbow use for hunting and those same hunter's feelings when it comes to allowing crossbows in bowseason.

[Swamp Ghost]

Limits are and were set. Shoots an arrow tipped with a blade that is propelled by a string from a bent limb. Xbows are a 40 yd and under weapon. Just like my compound is. There is zero data or proof that it affects or has ever effected in a negative manner any game season or bag limit of any animal. The states are finally looking past the "my season, my deer" selfish whiners and passing xbows. Look at the numbers of states in the lat year that have figured it out. Dude I believed all the crap you spew a few years ago. I found out it isn't so. Much ado over nothing.

I certainly haven't said it would effect seasons or bag limits.

We have a combo-tag system in MI. So it wouldn't matter if we had a 10 month long gun season. Regulations determine bag limits, not weapons.

[Swamp Monster]

He didn't drop out of bowhunting . He just changed archery gear.

It's all semantics but I admit I have hard time considering it bowhunting. It's still hunting though and thats fine but it's not bowhunting.


Do some of you feel that crossbows should be allowed in the Olympic field archery games?

[TJO]

I have to admit that I have a hard time calling it bowhunting to with the use of the modern day compound. To me they are as much of a bow as the crossbow is. Real bowhunters use real bows like recurve or longbows and put in long hours honeing there skills, they for the most part only shoot at distances of 15 yrds or less. So to me these guys are the true bowhunters they know how to get close to the game they hunt.
Todays archer with his modern equipment dose not need to hone the skills like the above mentioned most people can pick up and shoot with accuracy a new compound machine within a couple of hours and once sighted in can put it away until the following yr and within a couple of shots be right back on target.
So there is very little difference between the x-bow and the compound. The thing you here most from the anti's is well you don't have to draw the x-bow to that I say who care's most if not all archers that hunt deer are either in a tree 20-25 ft up or in some type of blind so movement is conceled so that argument don't wash.
So based on all the posts here on these threads I can only come to one conclusion why we have the anti's and to me it's about my way, my deer, to many hunters, to many of you gun hunters in my archery woods. It's not about tradition it can't be cause I haven't heard one of these anti's talk about the use of thier tradional equipment and how if x-bows where allowed what an unfair advantage that would create to them. I would also say that if the anti's want to continue to push for a seperate season or to limit them to firearms season then I think supporters of the x-bow should then push even harder to seperate the compound out and let the true bow hunters that just use the stick and string a true bow season and then everybody will in fact be on a true level playing field.

[Swamp Ghost]

I have to admit that I have a hard time calling it bowhunting to with the use of the modern day compound. To me they are as much of a bow as the crossbow is. Real bowhunters use real bows like recurve or longbows and put in long hours honeing there skills, they for the most part only shoot at distances of 15 yrds or less. So to me these guys are the true bowhunters they know how to get close to the game they hunt.
Todays archer with his modern equipment dose not need to hone the skills like the above mentioned most people can pick up and shoot with accuracy a new compound machine within a couple of hours and once sighted in can put it away until the following yr and within a couple of shots be right back on target.
So there is very little difference between the x-bow and the compound. The thing you here most from the anti's is well you don't have to draw the x-bow to that I say who care's most if not all archers that hunt deer are either in a tree 20-25 ft up or in some type of blind so movement is conceled so that argument don't wash.
So based on all the posts here on these threads I can only come to one conclusion why we have the anti's and to me it's about my way, my deer, to many hunters, to many of you gun hunters in my archery woods. It's not about tradition it can't be cause I haven't heard one of these anti's talk about the use of thier tradional equipment and how if x-bows where allowed what an unfair advantage that would create to them. I would also say that if the anti's want to continue to push for a seperate season or to limit them to firearms season then I think supporters of the x-bow should then push even harder to seperate the compound out and let the true bow hunters that just use the stick and string a true bow season and then everybody will in fact be on a true level playing field.

A traditional season? Go for it, it will be great.

As for the rest of it, not all bowhunters hunt out of treestands.

Your eloquent shredding of the compound and it's users really does a great job of making the case that there is no need for crossbows in bowseason.

[TJO]

Aw yes your right not all bowhunters hunt outa trees but I would bet that all bowhunters hunt from some type of blind as they do not just stand in the wide open.

And the reference to compounds was to show when you look at it with an open mind you see there is not much difference other than the draw. So refering back to the first point draw is of little or no concern to most bowhunters today.

As for the traditional season I for one wouldn't mind it one bit I'm pretty darn good with my recurve. But in no way does todays compound resemble a bow.

[Swamp Monster]

So based on all the posts here on these threads I can only come to one conclusion why we have the anti's and to me it's about my way, my deer, to many hunters, to many of you gun hunters in my archery woods. .

Actually, it won't really affect me all that much. On the property I own, there won't be any crossbows in use unless I get my stepfather to try it....but he'll balk at the cost sonsidering all the money he has wrapped up in is bow. On my leases, it's the same thing except for one person in our group that already uses a crossbow because of a disability. It may be felt however on state land. I suspect those gun owners that choose to take up a new season due to the ease of crossbow use, will not be the folks that lease land or own land and will be hunting on primarily state land. They aren't my deer regardless how many legendary buck beds I build they belong to everyone. Oh, and currently they are available to anyone that wants to take up bowhunting.

[Swamp Ghost]

Aw yes your right not all bowhunters hunt outa trees but I would bet that all bowhunters hunt from some type of blind as they do not just stand in the wide open.

And the reference to compounds was to show when you look at it with an open mind you see there is not much difference other than the draw. So refering back to the first point draw is of little or no concern to most bowhunters today.

As for the traditional season I for one wouldn't mind it one bit I'm pretty darn good with my recurve. But in no way does todays compound resemble a bow.

As much as I hate accessory and hunting method sidetracks, here it goes.

Have you hunted on the ground with a bow, even in a blind? I have spent a considerable amount of time hunting on the ground.

Can you not see (should say admit) the advantage of merely shouldering a weapon over having to come to full draw and then holding that draw for any amount of time?

Movement is not the only thing concealed with a crossbow when you are in close quarters with a deer.

Ever draw a bow in an enclosed blind? The sound associated with drawing a bow is greatly amplified. On more than one occasion I have had deer react to the sounds associated with coming to full draw even in a treestand and my bows are what I consider extremely quiet. Deer don't need to see the movement, they can hear it.

As much as it pains some to admit it, the compound is, in every way, a bow. A crossbow is, in every way, a crossbow. They are fundamentally different weapons.

[TJO]

Yep same here I have no x-bow and don't plan on buying one anytime soon but to exclude them simply because some otherwise stay at home gun hunters are going to get one and hunt during the archery season well I guess that's ones right to an opinion. I think it's a silly argument being that any advantage they have is so small I just don't understand why not have the right to choose. I really can't see most if any privite land owners carring one way or another but the public land hunter maybe something there I don't know.

[Swamp Monster]

I really can't see most if any privite land owners carring one way or another but the public land hunter maybe something there I don't know.

I don't really care. I've sacrificed other things so as to not have to hunt state land. I would like to see habitat improvement on our statelands for the benefit of deer hunting etc but thats a different thread. I just mentioned that I think those folks will be potentially affected far more than me. And course, I'm not certain of just what that affect will be yet....neither is anyone else.

[TJO]

Yep been on the ground yep done that have had deer spook so I know of what you speak.
Yep you do have to shoulder the crossbow but let me tell you last nite my neighbor you hunts with an x-bow brought it out and I handeled it I will say that one it was heavy and very hard to hold on target compaired to my compound. Now being a hunter I could admit that given a long shot say 30 yrds with a rest cause you anit gonna hold it, it would IMO have better accuracy don't know for sure cause didn't shoot it.

And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the compound being a bow cause your version and my version are different. My bow does not have sights, peep, release, and all the other goodies however, my compound has them all:D

[Swamp Ghost]

I don't really care. I've sacrificed other things so as to not have to hunt state land. I would like to see habitat improvement on our statelands for the benefit of deer hunting etc but thats a different thread. I just mentioned that I think those folks will be potentially affected far more than me. And course, I'm not certain of just what that affect will be yet....neither is anyone else.


I agree we need long term solutions to attract hunters back to deer hunting.

Can you imagine all of the MI SGA's under a Shiawassee style deer management system? :idea:

Talk about a long term revenue generator!

[TJO]

Yep me to that's why I pay those monthly notes to have my own land.

[Swamp Monster]

I agree we need long term solutions to attract hunters back to deer hunting.

Can you imagine all of the MI SGA's under a Shiawassee style deer management system? :idea:

Talk about a long term revenue generator!

It would certainly help! The hunters I know that have given up completely or even just mostly, are those that are forced to hunt on subquality crowded state land. That may not be a problem in some of the states many want to compare us to, but it's a problem here! Untill quality access is easier to obtain, numbers will continue to drop and the crossbow won't bring em' back. I'm fortunate to own, and fortunate to lease for now but leasing may be out of the question within a few years.

[TJO]

It would certainly help! The hunters I know that have given up completely or even just mostly, are those that are forced to hunt on subquality crowded state land. That may not be a problem in some of the states many want to compare us to, but it's a problem here! Untill quality access is easier to obtain, numbers will continue to drop and the crossbow won't bring em' back. I'm fortunate to own, and fortunate to lease for now but leasing may be out of the question within a few years.

Now that's something I agree with Mi SGA's are overcrowded now and I don't thing x-bows will bring more people to those overcrowded areas.

[TOW]

That's from Michael Tonkovich :).


Nope.. Tonkovich is there now. This was issued by Michael J. Budzik. I believe that he is retired now.

[TOW]

They "believe"? LOL! I'll take that as a "We don't know".:lol:

Take it any which way that you want to. I would expect nothng different form you. That does not change the fact that is what is happening.

There is the disability card, AGAIN!

Disability and inability to pull a hunting weight bow back is part of it, like it or not.

Do you realize that Hollis Allen had arthritic shoulders and invented the compond bow so that he would be able to continue to bowhunt? So, today you are using a bow that was invented for a "disability". If you are using a compound are YOU playing the "disability card" too?

If you are a healthy man with no upper exteremity problems why aren't you using a recurve or long bow instead of a bow that was invented for a person with a "disability"?

[Munsterlndr]

It would certainly help! The hunters I know that have given up completely or even just mostly, are those that are forced to hunt on subquality crowded state land. That may not be a problem in some of the states many want to compare us to, but it's a problem here! Untill quality access is easier to obtain, numbers will continue to drop and the crossbow won't bring em' back. I'm fortunate to own, and fortunate to lease for now but leasing may be out of the question within a few years.

The public land hunting issue has little to do with the crossbow issue. Only 15% of Michigan hunters hunt on public land. According to the DNR the vast majority of deer are located on private land in Michigan. Let's call a spade a spade, here. There are millions of acres of quality public access available in Michigan, just not where it's convenient for most hunters to drive to in an hour or so. If the public land hunter wants to, within a 3-4 hour drive they can find lots of public land to hunt on with few hunters.

Yes, even with crossbows, hunter numbers will probably continue to fall but crossbows will at least increase hunter retention and we will be able to hold on to older hunters longer and stem the flow. The longer a hunter stays in the woods, the more money they spend and the more likely it is that they will pass on their passion for the sport to someone else. It's why a lot of states have passed legislation allowing unrestricted use of crossbows by seniors, in order to retain more of that demographic. Michigan hunters had the opportunity to go that route but the MBH and the Trad guys violently opposed crossbows for seniors and managed to shoot any chance of that down. They don't want to accommodate anyone with a disability less than 80% (an absurdly high level), those with temporary disabilities, seniors, youth, woman or anybody else that could benefit from reasonable accommodation. When you take the all or nothing approach in your opposition, I guess you should not be surprised when you get faced with "all", which is what is occurring with this bill. Had MBH been supportive of reducing the level of disability to 60% and allowing crossbows for those 69 or older, this matter would still be in the hands of the NRC and the legislature would never would have gotten involved. But they drew a line in the sand that they would consider no changes to the status quo. Time will tell whether that proved to be a smart decision.

[November Sunrise]

Nope.. Tonkovich is there now. This was issued by Michael J. Budzik. I believe that he is retired now.

You're right. Sorry for the confusion:).

[BigBirdVA]

We aren't talking about pot.

Please provide your numbers. There is a big difference between people that favor allowing crossbow use for hunting and those same hunter's feelings when it comes to allowing crossbows in bowseason.You asked for it. BTW every real survey done in an approved manner with a random pick of participants has come up pro-xbow.

archerysite.net/vb/showthread.php?p=38886


state.nj.us/dep/fgw/pdf/2008/xbowsurvey07.pdf


myfwc.com/commission/2005/feb/Crossbow_Background_Report.pdf

You'll have to add the h t t p part because of the 15 post link limit this site has to post links. If you google it you'll find all you need to read to get an idea of how the public really feels.

We had 100s of pro and less than 20 anti here in VA when the comment period was given before they passed them. Truth is there are very few opposed (thank god) but they are very vocal. These few have been successful, until recently, on keeping the truth from being told. All that is changing.

[BigBirdVA]

It is an entirely different issue.

You are talking about concerns that were involved with the evolution of the bow.

I am talking about the addition of a much different weapon.Only to you and a few others with a different agenda is it different. Success rates prove otherwise. Unless you're a hair splitter that looses sleep over less than 1% difference. It may be different but it's not an advantage when all is said and done. And it doesn't take away from your recreational use. Again no bag limits have ever been changed because of xbow use. Todays compound with 80% let-off, releases, fiber optic sights, carbon arrows, mechanical heads, one cam no tune use and the list gets bigger daily is a joke.


Xbow use doesn't take a thing from you. Like I've asked a dozen times how does it's use affect your hunt? Proof other than "I don't like it so that makes it so'.

[swampbuck]

bigbirdva,

A BIG WELCOME TO THE SITE.

[2PawsRiver]

Only to you and a few others with a different agenda is it different.

I have no agenda. Outside of a disability, to me a Crossbow represents laziness. All this talk about adding hunters. Adding hunter is fine, but lazy ones, eh.

I read in one post about a guy that wanted Crossbows because his friend kept wounding deer with a bow, kept wounding deer with a bow, I had to read it a few times............the answer, give him a crossbow:dizzy:. Now theres an answer, wouldn't of been my answer, but hey what ever is easiest.

I knew Crossbows are would be coming, they represent a growing percentage of the hunting populace. It's not a big deal as I won't have to deal with them as I hunt my own, and private property.......so why bother, because I have 38 years invested into a aspect of life that shapes young men and women, that teaches many life lessons, that represents an important part of our American Heritage, that is worth trying to preserve...........tried, lost, life goes on.:)

[Munsterlndr]

I have no agenda. Outside of a disability, to me a Crossbow represents laziness. All this talk about adding hunters. Adding hunter is fine, but lazy ones, eh.


Pretty judgmental unless you are out there in a loin cloth using a handmade wooden bow, and wooden arrows with flint heads. The amount of technology that is employed by modern hunters is pretty staggering. It all has a common purpose, to make hunting easier, whether it is by making the hunter more comfortable, the weapon more accurate or preventing the animal from sensing you, it is designed to make hunting easier.

So the guy that uses his 4 wheel drive, towing his ATV, wearing his goretex and scent-lok, using his high-let off compound, with stabilizer, red dot sight, whisker bisquit, shooting carbon arrows with expandable broadheads, with a trigger release from his climbing tree lounger and wearing the latest camo from head to foot including his underwear, is somehow the epitome of a true "woodsman" soaked in ethics and lore of the woods but if a guy picks up crossbow he is automatically a lazy, unethical no-good that poses a threat to hunting as we know it.

Give me a break, Mark. Many of the guys that would use a crossbow are already in the woods with a compound or hunt with a firearm or muzzleloader. The idea that their character or ethics is somehow transformed the minute they pick up a different weapon is a load of BS. How about you quit being so judgemental of hunters that you don't even know and instead leave the stereotyping to the uninformed.

[BigBirdVA]

I have no agenda. Outside of a disability, to me a Crossbow represents laziness. All this talk about adding hunters. Adding hunter is fine, but lazy ones, eh.

I read in one post about a guy that wanted Crossbows because his friend kept wounding deer with a bow, kept wounding deer with a bow, I had to read it a few times............the answer, give him a crossbow:dizzy:. Now theres an answer, wouldn't of been my answer, but hey what ever is easiest.

I knew Crossbows are would be coming, they represent a growing percentage of the hunting populace. It's not a big deal as I won't have to deal with them as I hunt my own, and private property.......so why bother, because I have 38 years invested into a aspect of life that shapes young men and women, that teaches many life lessons, that represents an important part of our American Heritage, that is worth trying to preserve...........tried, lost, life goes on.:)I keep hearing this term lazy or slob hunter and xbows will somehow bring them all in. Hows that? Is it because it shoots 100 yds and you can also poach one on the way home if you somehow didn't get within 100 yds of a deer on that days hunt? We all know and have heard many, many times it's a poacher's tool and they have the same range as a rifle - that's why they have a stock on 'em you know.
As a note I've never seen a slob or lazy compound hunter. None I've seen opt for the higher let off bows or even the faster ones. None ever buy expandable heads. They won't dare miss out on the great art of tuning broadheads. They also don't use, releases, fiber optic sights or even a one cam bow. Why would anyone miss out on another mandatory compound hunter art? The art of timing cams and tiller tuning a bow. Nope they all take the hard road and shoot 50% let-off max and spend untold days and weeks just getting ready for opening day. Never seen a compound hunter show up in the pro show a few days before opener with a broken compound in a box and a hodge podge quiver full of an assortment of arrows and want it tuned, sighted in, and ready to take that Pope & Young this Saturday. Of course every compound bow hunter out there took all the necessary time and practice before ever taking that first shot. Wounds? Not in a compound hunters dictionary. Reminds me of "no Grasshopper you're not ready". Yes all compound hunters are master of the art. Simple possession and use of one proves that to all who would question such a thing. :yikes:

What a nice tale you have going there. Sorry but a lot of us aren't buying into it. Truth is there are lazy or slob types in all aspects of life including the sacred compound some hold so high. There is no, and never will be a way to thin these types out. But it's real easy to just point to the xbow and claim it's the instrument of all misuse and great attractor of lazy and slob hunters.

Anti-xbow myth # 17 - only slobs and lazy hunters use xbows. Pass the kool-aid will you, some haven't had a sip yet. :confused: :dizzy:

[multibeard]

[QUOTE=2PawsRiver;2164038]I have no agenda. Outside of a disability, to me a Crossbow represents laziness. All this talk about adding hunters. Adding hunter is fine, but lazy ones, eh.QUOTE]


Thanks buddy!!

Now because of my health problems and wanting to get back into hunting deer in the archery season with a cross bow I am LAZY.

Do I fit into the present disabilty criteria. NO

Would I fit into the proposed diability criteria changes. NO

So I guess I am just too lazy to hunt in YOUR ARCHERY SEASON.

[2PawsRiver]

I'm not judging anybody. It's an observation and an opinion. I don't support many things that happen in hunting today for the same reasons I don't support Crossbows.

As for all the techno stuff I said it in another post. I believe a successful traditional archer is a better hunter then a compound archer, outside of just having a lucky season:)

I think ultimately any Archer would take more pride in a deer he killed (I hate the term harvested:D) if he took it with a stick bow and arrows he made himself. Fact is most don't have the time or talent. Every hunter has to judge for himself where he draws that line between killing deer and hunting them.......and I know, to many these days there is no difference.

I have the same debate with myself routinely. I used to hunt with a stick bow, but civilized life got in the way. I didn't have the time needed to practice to the point I should hunt, so I went with a compound. It's a basic set up but I don't have to pick it up till opening morning to kill a deer (but I still do). Hunting with a compound bow does not require near the skill as a stick bow, and being successful shouldn't be nearly as rewarding.

somehow the epitome of a true "woodsman" soaked in ethics and lore of the woods

I may be taking this wrong, but it appears almost typed sarcasticly, but quite frankly ethics and lore, a true woodsman, at one time was much more important then killing a deer. I think the "ethics and lore" are slowly being lost, as hunting takes on a generation that somehow lost touch with how important they are.

Picking up a Crossbow, can you really think of an easier way to Archery Hunt. For me the Crossbow is not the problem, it's a symtem of the problem.

I don't mean to offend anybody, but I will say that if anybody is offended, I, glad, because to me it means deep down they know what I'm talking about, they know I'm right, and theres a chance, they may also come full circle back to the basics of hunting.

[2PawsRiver]

Thanks buddy!!

Here I will highlight it for you

Outside of a disability, to me a Crossbow represents laziness.

When I wrote those making decisions I addressed support for disabled hunters, making the acknowledgement of disabilities more reasonable, and less costly.

Slow down read and before you get offended.;)

[Swamp Ghost]

You asked for it. BTW every real survey done in an approved manner with a random pick of participants has come up pro-xbow.

archerysite.net/vb/showthread.php?p=38886


state.nj.us/dep/fgw/pdf/2008/xbowsurvey07.pdf


myfwc.com/commission/2005/feb/Crossbow_Background_Report.pdf



The NJ surveys creditability has been thoroughly shredded.

The rest I can't open.


Illinois sure doesn't want unrestricted crossbows even in gun season
A random sample of 3,000 potential deer hunters was selected from 2003 Illinois Habitat Stamp stubs.
An 8-page questionnaire was mailed to the selected sample, 222 of which were undeliverable. We received
2,006 returned questionnaires (72%), which included 1,990 useable responses.


Archery deer hunters generally supported the use of crossbows by handicapped hunters or hunters ≥65
years of age, but did not support legalizing crossbows for youth archery hunters under 18. Neither archery or
firearm hunters supported allowing crossbow use during the firearm deer season.

http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/programs/hd/Special%20Reports/Deer%20Hunter/deer04-05%20Report%20final.pdf

Wisconsin archers certainly don't want them

Survey participant’s names were randomly drawn from 2005-06 non-resident and resident archery, and conservation patron license holders in proportion to license sales in each county. Ten thousand questionnaires were mailed to participants at the close of the archery season. A second mailing was made to 5,000 non-respondents.

Question 11. Do you support the legalization that would make the crossbow a legal archery weapon for any Wisconsin archery hunter?

Yes
1,632
38.3%

No
2,632
61.7%

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/harvest/reports/05bowdeer.pdf

[2PawsRiver]

so why bother, because I have 38 years invested into a aspect of life that shapes young men and women, that teaches many life lessons, that represents an important part of our American Heritage, that is worth trying to preserve

Read the post, consider the content, then if you feel the need respond.

PS........fill out your profile so I have some idea of who you are, makes for better communication.;)

[TOW]

The NJ surveys creditability has been thoroughly shredded.

The rest I can't open.


Illinois sure doesn't want unrestricted crossbows even in gun season


http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/programs/hd/Special%20Reports/Deer%20Hunter/deer04-05%20Report%20final.pdf

Wisconsin archers certainly don't want them


http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/harvest/reports/05bowdeer.pdf


How about posting what all the hunters surveyed said. Not just archers.

[NoWake]

Mark, Do you carry these strong moral and ethical beliefs in all aspects of your life, or do you pick and choose where they should apply?

[2PawsRiver]

[QUOTE][Mark, Do you carry these strong moral and ethical beliefs in all aspects of your life, or do you pick and choose where they should apply?/QUOTE]

I don't know that I carry them in any aspect of my life.........I only try to. I fail many times, have done many things that I am not proud of, have made many bad decisions...........but I pick myself up, dust myself off and try to do better.

On a positive note I have done many good things, many things to be proud off and have made alot of good decisions.:)

[Munsterlndr]

Sorry Mark but I think you are way off the mark on this one. The type of weapon that someone chooses to hunt with has zero impact on their character, their ethics or the manner that they conduct themselves in the woods. You accuse crossbow hunters of being physically lazy, well your attitude smacks of mental laziness. Fred Bear was a gun hunter before he was a bow hunter. Did he magically become more ethical and a better hunter simply because he picked up a bow? Character and ethics are internal qualities. You are judging other hunters based on external, superficial appearances. Because some guy buys a wooden long bow, dresses in buckskins and wears a coonskin cap does not make him any more or any less of a hunter than somebody using modern equipment. Hunting is not designed to be a competition and as long as their conduct is legal and ethical, then it really should not matter to you or anyone else how another hunter practices their sport. Hunting a deer with an unscoped handgun is a lot tougher than with a scoped .300 winchester magnum from 300 yards. But there is no inherent virtue in a hunter choosing one method over another. The choice should be made for personal reasons not for public exhibition or to prove that you are somehow a superior hunter to others. I take personal satisfaction in every deer that I harvest, whether it's a buck or doe or a spike or a ten point. The weapon that I use makes little difference to me, it's the totality of the experience that gives me the reason to hunt. Whether it's harvested with a round ball from my Hawken or a bullet from my .250 Savage or an arrow from one of my bows, the essence of the hunt is not determined or diminished by the equipment that I employ. If you are so wrapped up in ranking and qualifying other hunters based on superficial qualities like what weapon they choose to use, then you may be missing out on the opportunity to meet and recreate with some pretty great guys who might even be able to teach you a thing or two.

[BigBirdVA]

The NJ surveys creditability has been thoroughly shredded.

The rest I can't open.


Illinois sure doesn't want unrestricted crossbows even in gun season


http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/programs/hd/Special%20Reports/Deer%20Hunter/deer04-05%20Report%20final.pdf

Wisconsin archers certainly don't want them


http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/harvest/reports/05bowdeer.pdfThings are always harder to do when you don't want too. Search google there are several other studies done correctly. You ask everyone in a survey for a true answer, not a select group.

FL, KY, GA and VA either did studies or had public comment periods. The MAJORITY said yes to xbows use in archery season.

[Swamp Ghost]

Things are always harder to do when you don't want too. Search google there are several other studies done correctly. You ask everyone in a survey for a true answer, not a select group.

FL, KY, GA and VA either did studies or had public comment periods. The MAJORITY said yes to xbows use in archery season.

And they got them.

2 separate Cornell surveys show that all NY hunters overwhelmingly reject the crossbow in bowseason. I've yet to see a random sample survey of MI hunters concerning crossbows.

But like I've said before, the politicians have it before them, little can be done now other than to see how it all shakes out.

The NJ survey wasn't targeting a select group? LOL!

The KY survey included LO/landowners that didn't hunt.

Caution is warranted when considering information from other states,
because circumstances in Florida are different with regard to deer habitats, deer
populations, hunting season structure, and hunting season bag limits. Under these
different circumstances, hunter success and deer harvest rates may differ from
other states and may even be higher.

[TOW]

Sorry Mark but I think you are way off the mark on this one. The type of weapon that someone chooses to hunt with has zero impact on their character, their ethics or the manner that they conduct themselves in the woods. You accuse crossbow hunters of being physically lazy, well your attitude smacks of mental laziness. Fred Bear was a gun hunter before he was a bow hunter. Did he magically become more ethical and a better hunter simply because he picked up a bow? Character and ethics are internal qualities. You are judging other hunters based on external, superficial appearances. Because some guy buys a wooden long bow, dresses in buckskins and wears a coonskin cap does not make him any more or any less of a hunter than somebody using modern equipment. Hunting is not designed to be a competition and as long as their conduct is legal and ethical, then it really should not matter to you or anyone else how another hunter practices their sport. Hunting a deer with an unscoped handgun is a lot tougher than with a scoped .300 winchester magnum from 300 yards. But there is no inherent virtue in a hunter choosing one method over another. The choice should be made for personal reasons not for public exhibition or to prove that you are somehow a superior hunter to others. I take personal satisfaction in every deer that I harvest, whether it's a buck or doe or a spike or a ten point. The weapon that I use makes little difference to me, it's the totality of the experience that gives me the reason to hunt. Whether it's harvested with a round ball from my Hawken or a bullet from my .250 Savage or an arrow from one of my bows, the essence of the hunt is not determined or diminished by the equipment that I employ. If you are so wrapped up in ranking and qualifying other hunters based on superficial qualities like what weapon they choose to use, then you may be missing out on the opportunity to meet and recreate with some pretty great guys who might even be able to teach you a thing or two.


Spot on...

Wheher we choose a .300 Weatherby or a self bow to hunt with is OUR own persoanl choice. No hunter should EVER put down another hunter for their choice of what hunting tool that they want to use.

The only person that we have to please when we go hunting is ourselves.

[bradymsu]

Yesterday in House Committee, I watched the MBH members present enthusiastic support of modified bows. One of them even discussed a modified bow that could be drawn back and released via a pin (trigger) from the same hand that was holding the bow. The one member of the committee who had voted against full inclusion for crossbows asked one of the MBH guys how they reconciled their enthusiastic support for these type of modified bows with their very angry opposition to crossbows since modified bows don't require the bow to be drawn before game which previously seemed to be their big hang up. After stammering for a while, the answer given was that modified bows cost less and unlike crossbows, the tension can be released without dry-firing. Umm, really?

It has become apparent to anyone who has witnessed this debate between the pro-crossbow and anti-crossbow people that logic very clearly favors full inclusion. At the very best, the anti-crossbow argument is an emotional one about "tradition" which doesn't fly very well given what's happening to Michigan hunting. At its worst, it appears many of the anti-crossbow people are afraid of other hunters, particularly older and weaker hunters, taking "their" deer in "their" special season. After all, bowhunting shouldn't be for the weak, right?! And older hunters should just hang it up?! How will their arguments play out before the public's elected representatives? We'll see soon enough.

I'm a gun collector, passionate advocate of firearms rights, a CPL holder and a proud member of the NRA and MCRGO. I know guns. I love guns. And let me tell you, crossbows are not guns. They are very clearly a type of archery equipment as any kindergartner or adult with a bit of common sense (and without a political agenda) recognize. Bow-string-arrow vs. primer-powder-bullet. A stock and a release doesn't make a bow a firearm given the huge difference in ballistics between a round and an arrow.

[Swamp Ghost]

Isn't a disabled hunters inability to draw a bow why a disabled hunter needs a crossbow or draw-loc? What does drawing in the presence of game have to do with a disabled hunter issue?

Was the MBH touting this modified bow for unrestricted use?

Logic appears thrown out the window by both sides.

Get the people that need a crossbow (the disabled and elderly) to participate in bowseason a crossbow. Seems like a reasonable compromise to the all or nothing arguments provided by both camps. (No crossbows for anyone vs. full inclusion)

We all know what happens when the MI legislature gets involved with anything. Blown away yet? :lol:

Who said crossbows were guns? They are a hybrid.

[2PawsRiver]

I could be way of mark Munsterlndr, but it's what I think, it's how I view it. I don't mind that your view is different then mine, you're entitled to it, no different then I am entitled to mine.

Just for the record though, I don't judge anybody, never called anybody anything, and I don't rank anybody based on the weapon they choose to hunt with, nor do I assign qualities to anybody.

I do however think that the Crossbow is a lazy way to Deer Hunt. I do think that effort and commitment do have some bearing on the satisfaction associated with a successful hunt, to think differently would mean you are just as proud of a buck you shot as you would be of the buck that was accidently hit on the way to the field, or found already dead when you got there.

I do think that todays generation does want quicker gratification while spending less energy to attain it.

Your beliefs are different then mine, I don't have a problem with that and would gladly argue about it while we're headed to field and then help you drag your deer out if you're successful. If a man can't accept that my beliefs are different then his, accepts a label that he believes I have given him and lets it effect him to the point that I miss the opportunity to learn from him.................good riddance.:)

[bradymsu]

Swamp Ghost, it sounds like you're coming around to the logical solution. A bit more and you'll be at full inclusion. :chillin: Thanks for helping us with the Fifth Step in the process. :lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

Swamp Ghost, it sounds like you're coming around to the logical solution. A bit more and you'll be at full inclusion. :chillin: Thanks for helping us with the Fifth Step in the process. :lol:

I'd rather take my chances with the NRC and that ain't sayin much.......

Doesn't the NRC have the final say in what weapons will be used and where?

Doesn't prop. G allow for modifications of this type of legislation?

Could get interesting.......

[November Sunrise]

Isn't a disabled hunters inability to draw a bow why a disabled hunter needs a crossbow or draw-loc?

Logic appears thrown out the window by both sides.

Get the people that need a crossbow to participate in bowseason a crossbow. Seems like a reasonable compromise to the all or nothing arguments provided by both camps. (No crossbows for anyone vs. full inclusion)

Listen, I understand the game of trying to discredit all surveys, data, points of debate, etc. I've read your posts for enough for years to know that you're too intelligent to believe some of the blather that you're throwing out, but I understand the role you're trying to play on here. That's fine. However, if you really don't understand the dynamic of how proposed legislation for full inclusion passes almost unanimously out of committee, just go back a post or two and look at what "bradymsu" wrote. He's clearly spelling out for you the way that this issue is perceived by politicians who begin with an unfamiliarity of the topic and who are then exposed to the arguments from both sides. To them, it's clearly evident that this is an emotion vs. logic issue.

Now, you can say stick with the tried and true rebuttals that all politicians are idiots, or the politicians on the committee are all whores who are secretly on the crossbow company payrolls, etc. Whatever. Maybe that's a good idea to play it that way, as some of the most simple minded on your side of the issue even belief that stuff, so maybe there's a benefit to you feeding those guys what they want to hear. Regardless, if you look at the post I'm referring to as well as the email from Rep. Sheltrown that I posted a day or two ago, it's all spelled out in black and white for you that the smoke and mirrors anti-crossbow arguments simply aren't registering with politicians who aren't personally invested in the issue and who take the time to consider both sides of the argument. That is the answer to your question of why full inclusion is now being considered rather than just making it a matter of access for the disabled.

In addition, if you want candid feedback, you should understand that the performance of the MBH guys in the NRC workgroup and the stance that the group has taken over the years have caused many who've came in contact with your group to question the sincerity of MBH's interest in expanding crossbow access for the disabled. Now, here again, you can play the game of rebutting me and try to discredit me and everyone else who has pointed that out. That's fine - if we want to pretend that the whole world outside of the MBH's 900 members is simply unenlightened and ignorant have at it. I'm simply trying to help you understand why those who have no inherent interest in this subject one way or another aren't leaning in your direction once they're exposed to arguments from both sides.

[Swamp Ghost]

Listen, I understand the game of trying to discredit all surveys, data, points of debate, etc. I've read your posts for enough for years to know that you're too intelligent to believe some of the blather that you're throwing out, but I understand the role you're trying to play on here. That's fine. However, if you really don't understand the dynamic of how proposed legislation for full inclusion passes almost unanimously out of committee, just go back a post or two and look at what "bradymsu" wrote. He's clearly spelling out for you the way that this issue is perceived by politicians who begin with an unfamiliarity of the topic and who are then exposed to the arguments from both sides. To them, it's clearly evident that this is an emotion vs. logic issue.

Now, you can say stick with the tried and true rebuttals that all politicians are idiots, or the politicians on the committee are all whores who are secretly on the crossbow company payrolls, etc. Whatever. Maybe that's a good idea to play it that way, as some of the most simple minded on your side of the issue even belief that stuff, so maybe there's a benefit to you feeding those guys what they want to hear. Regardless, if you look at the post I'm referring to as well as the email from Rep. Sheltrown that I posted a day or two ago, it's all spelled out in black and white for you that the smoke and mirrors anti-crossbow arguments simply aren't registering with politicians who aren't personally invested in the issue and who take the time to consider both sides of the argument. That is the answer to your question of why full inclusion is now being considered rather than just making it a matter of access for the disabled.

In addition, if you want candid feedback, you should understand that the performance of the MBH guys in the NRC workgroup and the stance that the group has taken over the years have caused many who've came in contact with your group to question the sincerity of MBH's interest in expanding crossbow access for the disabled. Now, here again, you can play the game of rebutting me and try to discredit me and everyone else who has pointed that out. That's fine - if we want to pretend that the whole world outside of the MBH's 900 members is simply unenlightened and ignorant have at it. I'm simply trying to help you understand why those who have no inherent interest in this subject one way or another aren't leaning in your direction once they're exposed to arguments from both sides.

Discredit? I don't have to discredit them, they have been misrepresented.

Have I said all politicians are idiots? No.

Have I said they are whores to the crossbow companies? No.

I resent the inference that I have.

Believe me I know how proposed legislation makes it out of committee.

I've seen the letter and other letters sent to Rep. Sheltrowns constituents that support and don't support the bill. Sorry to say the reasons laid out for full inclusion are just as faulty as are most of the reasons to keep them out from the MBH.

We'll let some other facts counter the "facts" espoused by Rep. Sheltrown's reasons for inclusion play out with the rest of this state's representatives that have no inherent interest in the subject.

[BigBirdVA]

And they got them.

2 separate Cornell surveys show that all NY hunters overwhelmingly reject the crossbow in bowseason. I've yet to see a random sample survey of MI hunters concerning crossbows.

But like I've said before, the politicians have it before them, little can be done now other than to see how it all shakes out.

The NJ survey wasn't targeting a select group? LOL!

The KY survey included LO/landowners that didn't hunt.Still don't get it do you? Laws are created based on public opinion or the effect they have or specific needs that have to be filled. The public is not one select sect, it's everyone. It's your opinion some of the surveys were flawed. How about some proof on those you claim were incorrectly done?

Game animals are owned by all in the state. Public land is owned by all in the state, not just archers. More specifically greedy archers. A survey is valid when it asks for answers from all residents.

Data from states that have allowed xbow use show zero impact. I guess you have results to counter that as well? Surveys give some input but results from states where it was done say it all. The woods didn't fill with too many hunters, the game bag limits haven't changed, seasons haven't been decreased, and not one single compound hunter has ever been excluded due to xbows being allowed in archery season. The facts speak the truth. Facts are why it's in the legal process - not feelings or beliefs from a vocal few.

[November Sunrise]

Discredit? I don't have to discredit them, they have been misrepresented.

Have I said all politicians are idiots? No.

Have I said they are whores to the crossbow companies? No.

I resent the inference that I have.

Believe me I know how proposed legislation makes it out of committee.

I've seen the letter and other letters sent to Rep. Sheltrowns constituents that support and don't support the bill. Sorry to say the reasons laid out for full inclusion are just as faulty as are most of the reasons to keep them out from the MBH.

We'll let some other facts counter the "facts" espoused by Rep. Sheltrown's reasons for inclusion play out with the rest of this state's representatives that have no inherent interest in the subject.

Like I said, I understand the don't give an inch tact that you're taking by objecting to every single point and suggesting that everything's debatable, nothing's conclusive, etc. And I'm genuinely fine with that- how and what you post on here is your business. My point in the previous post is that, since you asked why this had moved past being a disability issue, I simply pointed out to you that the arguments that your brethren fed to the committee a few weeks ago, which are the same ones that you're throwing out on here, aren't flying with the politicians that don't have an inherent interest in the subject. Since I'm completely on the opposite side of this issue, I won't help you guys by pointing that out again. As a matter of fact, I'd encourage you guys to stay the course and stick with the exact same dogma and talking points that worked 10 years ago:). As a matter of fact, let's now return this thread back to the old "crossbows aren't really bows" theme - that's working well for you guys and I'd encourage you to keep your focus there.

[bradymsu]

I'd rather take my chances with the NRC and that ain't sayin much.......

Doesn't the NRC have the final say in what weapons will be used and where?

Doesn't prop. G allow for modifications of this type of legislation?

Could get interesting.......

No, Proposal G does not allow the NRC to alter statutory law. Proposal G only gives the NRC the sole authority to issue game orders (administrative rules). In terms of legal weight, theses rank below statutory law. They may not contradict statutory law.

Legislative authority in our system of government begins and ends with the electorate and its ELECTED representatives in the LEGISLATIVE branch who are DIRECTLY ACCOUNTABLE TO THE ELECTORATE. Other than through a ballot referendum by the electorate, legislation can only be introduced by an elected legislator. And the Legislature has the final word through its ability to override a gubanatorial veto.

Proposal G was adopted as a change to statutory law. It is not Constitutional law. If it had been adopted as a Constitutional change, it would not survived a challenge in federal court.

One of the false things stated by the anti-crossbow crowd in this debate is that by moving the crossbow bill, the Legislature is somehow intruding on the authority of the NRC. This is not the case. In terms of crossbows, the NRC only has the authority to issue permits for permanently disabled individuals. Anything beyond this needs legislative action. Regardless, the Legislature has oversight authority over the NRC and DNR anyway.

[Swamp Ghost]

No, Proposal G does not allow the NRC to alter statutory law. Proposal G only gives the NRC the sole authority to issue game orders (administrative rules). In terms of legal weight, theses rank below statutory law. They may not contradict statutory law.

Legislative authority in our system of government begins and ends with the electorate and its ELECTED representatives in the LEGISLATIVE branch who are DIRECTLY ACCOUNTABLE TO THE ELECTORATE. Other than through a ballot referendum by the electorate, legislation can only be introduced by an elected legislator. And the Legislature has the final word through its ability to override a gubanatorial veto.

Proposal G was adopted as a change to statutory law. It is not Constitutional law. If it had been adopted as a Constitutional change, it would not survived a challenge in federal court.

One of the false things stated by the anti-crossbow crowd in this debate is that by moving the crossbow bill, the Legislature is somehow intruding on the authority of the NRC. This is not the case. In terms of crossbows, the NRC only has the authority to issue permits for permanently disabled individuals. Anything beyond this needs legislative action. Regardless, the Legislature has oversight authority over the NRC and DNR anyway.

Thanks for the insight.

[Swamp Ghost]

Still don't get it do you? Laws are created based on public opinion or the effect they have or specific needs that have to be filled. The public is not one select sect, it's everyone. It's your opinion some of the surveys were flawed. How about some proof on those you claim were incorrectly done?

Game animals are owned by all in the state. Public land is owned by all in the state, not just archers. More specifically greedy archers. A survey is valid when it asks for answers from all residents.

Data from states that have allowed xbow use show zero impact. I guess you have results to counter that as well? Surveys give some input but results from states where it was done say it all. The woods didn't fill with too many hunters, the game bag limits haven't changed, seasons haven't been decreased, and not one single compound hunter has ever been excluded due to xbows being allowed in archery season. The facts speak the truth. Facts are why it's in the legal process - not feelings or beliefs from a vocal few.

I don't need to discredit then. Like I have said the majority of "facts" are misrepresented spin.

Greedy archers? If you say so. I fail to see how I can be seen as greedy when I would gladly except every hunter into MI's bowseason as long as they were using a bow.

I could easily paint people who aren't motivated enough to use a bow but demand all of bowseason as greedy, but that's not the issue at hand is it? How can demanding the rules be changed to allow those unwilling to play by the rules a different way in, not be seen anything other than selfish and greedy?

But the ones playing by the rules are the greedy, selfish, elitists? Get real.

The fundamental difference of the crossbow and what it will and will not do are the issues.

We'll see how it plays out with the politicians....

Prepare to be blown away :rolleyes:

Not that it matters, seeing how you are from VA. How's the sunday hunting coming?:lol:

[BigBirdVA]

I don't need to discredit then. Like I have said the majority of "facts" are misrepresented spin.

Greedy archers? If you say so. I fail to see how I can be seen as greedy when I would gladly except every hunter into MI's bowseason as long as they were using a bow.

I could easily paint people who aren't motivated enough to use a bow but demand all of bowseason as greedy, but that's not the issue at hand is it? How can demanding the rules be changed to allow those unwilling to play by the rules a different way in, not be seen anything other than selfish and greedy?

But the ones playing by the rules are the greedy, selfish, elitists? Get real.

The fundamental differences between these two weapons is the issue.

We'll see how it plays out with the politicians....

Prepare to be blown away :rolleyes:

Not that it matters, seeing how you are from VA. How's the sunday hunting coming?:lol:We're working on it. It's a few hunters and others that feel they should control what a person can do on their own land. You should be able to relate to that one. :o


How did compound hunters demand and get the rules changed for them many years ago? Still it's all based on some misguided belief that xbow use causes harm. Still waiting to hear how a guy with an xbow hunting in the next woodlot affects your hunt. Mind answering that one?

Rules change. They have before and they will again.


While you have that paint set out, paint me a reason why able bodied people aren't motivated to shoot a stick bow? All this change and crying foul has been done in the past. Rules changed then didn't they? All that's said about xbows was said about compounds.

[awshucks]

And they got them.

2 separate Cornell surveys show that all NY hunters overwhelmingly reject the crossbow in bowseason. I've yet to see a random sample survey of MI hunters concerning crossbows.

But like I've said before, the politicians have it before them, little can be done now other than to see how it all shakes out.

The NJ survey wasn't targeting a select group? LOL!

The KY survey included LO/landowners that didn't hunt.

How do you spin the "random" part of the NJ survey?

The Fish and Game Council acknowledged this growing interest in crossbows, as well as an objection to crossbows among some hunters. Therefore, in order to supply the Fish and Game Council with sound data on which to base it’s decision, the Division of Fish and Wildlife conducted a scientifically sound survey. This was done to determine the opinion of a random selection of hunters who represented all New Jersey hunters, rather than just those who took the time to directly contact the Division.

The survey was conducted in December 2007 to determine the opinion of resident hunters on the expansion of crossbow use for deer hunting in New Jersey. Currently, only people with disabilities are permitted to hunt with crossbows. A survey was mailed to 2,030 resident hunters who purchased licenses using the Division’s automated licensing system. One thousand, forty-seven surveys were returned (51.6 %) indicating a very strong interest in this subject. A summary of results follows:

PARTICIPATION IN DEER HUNTING IN NEW JERSEY
* Resident license buyers were asked which deer seasons they participate in. Only three percent of respondents were not deer hunters. User groups were defined by the seasons hunted, breaking down deer hunters into bow and gun hunters, gun-only hunters, and bow-only hunters. It was determined that 72% of participating deer hunters use both bow and guns; 23% hunt with guns only; and 5% hunt with bows only.

[lang49]

It has become apparent to anyone who has witnessed this debate between the pro-crossbow and anti-crossbow people that logic very clearly favors full inclusion.

Seeing that crossbows for the masses will have no significant impact on the deer heard (the hallmark argument of the pro-crossbow advocates), why shouldn't popular opinion and tradition be considered?

The "freedom of choice" argument is based on as much emotion as the argument for tradition- why is that so difficult for people to understand??

[Swamp Ghost]

We're working on it. It's a few hunters and others that feel they should control what a person can do on their own land. You should be able to relate to that one. :o


How did compound hunters demand and get the rules changed for them many years ago? Still it's all based on some misguided belief that xbow use causes harm. Still waiting to hear how a guy with an xbow hunting in the next woodlot affects your hunt. Mind answering that one?

Rules change. They have before and they will again.


While you have that paint set out, paint me a reason why able bodied people aren't motivated to shoot a stick bow? All this change and crying foul has been done in the past. Rules changed then didn't they? All that's said about xbows was said about compounds.

It's about a crossbow being a fundamentally different weapon.

I have no idea why a small group of able-bodied hunters is not motivated enough to participate in an opportunity enjoyed by many MI hunters but's it's clear that same small group of MI hunters is motivated enough to lobby for another weapon to use.

[lang49]

It's a few hunters and others that feel they should control what a person can do on their own land. You should be able to relate to that one. :o



Than why aren't you advocating a crossbow season on private land? I really don't care what a hunter uses to kill deer on private land. On public land (where I'm stuck hunting), I see no evidence that crossbows will have any positive impact on an already dismal resource.

Riva's letter which suggests crossbows are somehow going to improve my hunting experience,

"8. Resource: Helping in the scientific management of a the deer herd while maximizing hunter opportunity" is pure BS. What good can come from making it easier for more people to kill button bucks and yearling bucks on state land??

[Swamp Ghost]

How do you spin the "random" part of the NJ survey?

The Fish and Game Council acknowledged this growing interest in crossbows, as well as an objection to crossbows among some hunters. Therefore, in order to supply the Fish and Game Council with sound data on which to base it’s decision, the Division of Fish and Wildlife conducted a scientifically sound survey. This was done to determine the opinion of a random selection of hunters who represented all New Jersey hunters, rather than just those who took the time to directly contact the Division.

The survey was conducted in December 2007 to determine the opinion of resident hunters on the expansion of crossbow use for deer hunting in New Jersey. Currently, only people with disabilities are permitted to hunt with crossbows. A survey was mailed to 2,030 resident hunters who purchased licenses using the Division’s automated licensing system. One thousand, forty-seven surveys were returned (51.6 %) indicating a very strong interest in this subject. A summary of results follows:

PARTICIPATION IN DEER HUNTING IN NEW JERSEY
* Resident license buyers were asked which deer seasons they participate in. Only three percent of respondents were not deer hunters. User groups were defined by the seasons hunted, breaking down deer hunters into bow and gun hunters, gun-only hunters, and bow-only hunters. It was determined that 72% of participating deer hunters use both bow and guns; 23% hunt with guns only; and 5% hunt with bows only.

The results were based on supporters of crossbows, AKA, a select group.

Supporters of Crossbows were asked in which deer season(s) should Crossbow use be allowed. The selection “all bow seasons” was preferred (54%) by all respondents. The second most popular choice of all respondents was “all deer seasons” (24%).

[bradymsu]

Lang, it depends on how you approach the role of government and the rights of its citizens. For supporters of limited government, the fundemental questions isn't "why should we legalize X", it's "what compelling reason is there to make/keep X illegal". In terms of safety and managment impact, there isn't any reason to prohibit crossbows in the archery season and even most reasonable anti-crossbow people will admit this. As far a tradition goes, allowing hunters to use crossbows doesn't take away the longbow/recurve bow/compound bow tradition of other hunters. As for public opinion, that's why we have a Legislature directly elected by the public to make these decisions.

[Munsterlndr]

2 separate Cornell surveys show that all NY hunters overwhelmingly reject the crossbow in bowseason.
The KY survey included LO/landowners that didn't hunt.

Tell me your joking! You mean the two Cornell studies that took place in the last century? :lol:

How about the Cornell study that took place in 2005, which might be a little more reflective of contemporary attitudes than a survey taken over 13 years ago. You know the Kentucky one where they surveyed both landowners and hunters separately (like they do in the Michigan MAR's surveys?, are those discredited because some of the landowners don't hunt?)

The results from the Cornell Kentucky survey;

Landowners 59% approval for crossbows in archery season with only 23% opposed.

Hunters 63% approval with only 25% opposed.

You have been posting all over the internet accusing pro-crossbow folks of selectively using data, Mr. Pot meet Mr. Kettle. :lol:

[November Sunrise]

Seeing that crossbows for the masses will have no significant impact on the deer heard (the hallmark argument of the pro-crossbow advocates), why shouldn't popular opinion and tradition be considered?

The "freedom of choice" argument is based on as much emotion as the argument for tradition- why is that so difficult for people to understand??

The tradition argument rings hollow due to the choice that the vast majority of bowhunters make to use compound bows, sights, carbon arrows, mechanical release, etc. The vast majority of hunters choose ease and efficiency over tradition. That's not a criticism of them, it's just an observation of how it is.

Now, if a hunter is using a long bow, shooting wooden shafts that he made himself, etc - well, that guy has something to say about tradition. In other words, he would bring tremendous credibility to the tradition argument. Almost a man against boys scenario when it comes to defending tradition. However, does a compound bow shooter bring credibility to the tradition argument? No, not even a trace. A compound shooter who thinks that he has "tradition" on his side is exhibiting no objectivity at all.

Popular opinion undoubtedly was considered by the politicians.

[BigBirdVA]

Than why aren't you advocating a crossbow season on private land? I really don't care what a hunter uses to kill deer on private land. On public land (where I'm stuck hunting), I see no evidence that crossbows will have any positive impact on an already dismal resource.

Riva's letter which suggests crossbows are somehow going to improve my hunting experience,

"8. Resource: Helping in the scientific management of a the deer herd while maximizing hunter opportunity" is pure BS. What good can come from making it easier for more people to kill button bucks and yearling bucks on state land??Did compounds advocate private land when they asked to be let in? The state has no right to dictate how you use your land as long as it doesn't affect others or the total game management plan in effect. Truth is xbow use has no effect for the public in general. They do however have a great effect for the few that want them and are not allowed to use them. How about a permit for those to use a compound? Lets make all who can shoot a recurve use that? Sounds a little absurd huh? So does limiting xbow use to those of us that see them every day and know first hand it doesn't affect a thing.

[Swamp Ghost]

Tell me your joking! You mean the two Cornell studies that took place in the last century? :lol:

How about the Cornell study that took place in 2005, which might be a little more reflective of contemporary attitudes than a survey taken over 13 years ago. You know the Kentucky one where they surveyed both landowners and hunters separately (like they do in the Michigan MAR's surveys?, are those discredited because some of the landowners don't hunt?)

The results from the Cornell Kentucky survey;

Landowners 59% approval for crossbows in archery season with only 23% opposed.

Hunters 63% approval with only 25% opposed.

You have been posting all over the internet accusing pro-crossbow folks of selectively using data, Mr. Pot meet Mr. Kettle. :lol:

I haven't selectively used data. I have provided alternate data.

Sorry, I don't think non-hunting landowners should have any say in hunting regulations. That's just me.

The most recent Cornell survey was in 2000 for the state of NY. I would really like to see Cornell survey for MI concerning crossbows.

But like BBV said, "Laws are created based on public opinion or the effect they have or specific needs that have to be filled."

We don't have public opinion on the crossbow issue. So we are left with the following:

What will their effect be? We have no idea. Other than the grossly inflated benefits and negatives presented by both sides.

Why are crossbows NEEDED again? They aren't. We can accomplish everything the crossbow advocates say it will with what is readily available to MI hunters.

[Munsterlndr]

Than why aren't you advocating a crossbow season on private land? I really don't care what a hunter uses to kill deer on private land. On public land (where I'm stuck hunting), I see no evidence that crossbows will have any positive impact on an already dismal resource.

Riva's letter which suggests crossbows are somehow going to improve my hunting experience,

"8. Resource: Helping in the scientific management of a the deer herd while maximizing hunter opportunity" is pure BS. What good can come from making it easier for more people to kill button bucks and yearling bucks on state land??

lang -
Approx. 15% of the hunting in Michigan takes place on public land. If you live in Mesick and cannot find public land to hunt on your not looking very hard. Within an hours drive there is hundreds of thousands of acres of public land available for you to hunt on. Get more than 100 yards off the road and you won't see very many other hunters, regardless of whether crossbows are included in archery season.

As far a hunters targeting yearling bucks, think about it. You crossbow opponents claim that the majority of crossbow users are coming from the ranks of firearms hunters, so most of those hunters already have the opportunity to harvest yearling bucks thanks to our wonderful combo license (you know, the one that MBH fights tooth and nail to keep in place?) Prior to crossbows being included in archery season, what many of these hunters did not have the option of doing was to harvest a doe instead of a spike buck. There exists the potential that some of the new crossbow hunters will harvest a doe, earlier in the season, and may pass on younger bucks later in the year because they already have some venison in the freezer. The vast majority of successful Michigan hunters only harvest 1 deer a year. This would be good for the public land hunter from a herd management standpoint.

[10PtCrossbow]

I have no idea why a small group of able-bodied hunters is not motivated enough to participate in an opportunity enjoyed by many MI hunters but's it's clear that same small group of MI hunters is motivated enough to lobby for another weapon to use.


Swamp,
The thing is, it is not a small group. In just 3 weekends, the American Crossbow Federation got 3,000 signatures from MI residents to expand the use of crossbow. 3 people got 3,000 signatures in 6 days of MI Outdoor shows. If you ask me, to get 3,000 signatures in 3 weekends shows there is very strong support for crossbows in MI

[BigBirdVA]

The results were based on supporters of crossbows, AKA, a select group.

You quoted as proof...........Supporters of Crossbows were asked in which deer season(s) should Crossbow use be allowed. The selection “all bow seasons” was preferred (54%) by all respondents. The second most popular choice of all respondents was “all deer seasons” (24%).

How about the crux of the survey not select limited parts?

"A survey was mailed to 2,030 resident hunters who purchased licenses using the Division’s automated licensing system. One thousand, forty-seven surveys were returned (51.6 %) indicating a very strong interest in this subject. A summary of results follows:
PARTICIPATION IN DEER HUNTING IN NEW JERSEY
► Resident license buyers were asked which deer seasons they participate in. Only three percent of respondents were not deer hunters. User groups were defined by the seasons hunted, breaking down deer hunters into bow and gun hunters, gun-only hunters, and bow-only hunters. It was determined that 72% of participating deer hunters use both bow and guns; 23% hunt with guns only; and 5% hunt with bows only.

SUPPORT FOR CROSSBOWS FOR DEER HUNTING
► Total support (strong support and moderate support) for the expansion of the use of crossbows for deer hunting was overwhelmingly in favor (73%) among all respondents.


The above is just another classic example of selective reasoning in action by the typical anti-xbow mouthpiece. :gaga:

Yes anyone can see the survey is seriously flawed. It said the majority of participants are in favor of it's use.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

Swamp,
The thing is, it is not a small group. In just 3 weekends, the American Crossbow Federation got 3,000 signatures from MI residents to expand the use of crossbow. 3 people got 3,000 signatures in 6 days of MI Outdoor shows. If you ask me, to get 3,000 signatures in 3 weekends shows there is very strong support for crossbows in MI

If you say so. IF there was strong enough support this would have been a ballot issue long ago.

I can see why crossbow advocates were hesitant to take their fight to the polls.

[Swamp Ghost]

You quoted as proof...........

How about the crux of the survey not select limited parts?

"A survey was mailed to 2,030 resident hunters who purchased licenses using the Division’s automated licensing system. One thousand, forty-seven surveys were returned (51.6 %) indicating a very strong interest in this subject. A summary of results follows:
PARTICIPATION IN DEER HUNTING IN NEW JERSEY
► Resident license buyers were asked which deer seasons they participate in. Only three percent of respondents were not deer hunters. User groups were defined by the seasons hunted, breaking down deer hunters into bow and gun hunters, gun-only hunters, and bow-only hunters. It was determined that 72% of participating deer hunters use both bow and guns; 23% hunt with guns only; and 5% hunt with bows only.




The above is just another classic example of selective reasoning in action by the typical anti-xbow mouthpiece. :gaga:

Yes anyone can see the survey is seriously flawed. It said the majority of participants are in favor of it's use.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

72% of participating deer hunters use both bow and guns
And your point is? An example of selective reasoning in action?

The majority of hunters DO support the use of a crossbow for hunting, so do I.

It's use in bowseason is where the majority of people do not want it.

So 54% of the 70% of respondents who are Supporters of Crossbows would like to see crossbows used in archery season.

So in fact 38% of NJ crossbow supporters would like to see crossbows in the archery season. The other 62% of NJ supporters and non-supporters of crossbows wouldn't.

I wonder if that's the reason you agree it's flawed?

[TJO]

A crossbow is no more than a modern compound bow with a horizontal riser.

Swamp if I wasn't a supporter of x-bows for all, after reading all your posts on this subject based on your closed mind attitude you would have turned me to a supporter.

[10PtCrossbow]

Good try Ghost.

54% of the supporters want it in all archery seasons and 24% want it in all deer seasons. Here is the text from the survey in case you are unclear.

PLACEMENT OF CROSSBOWS
► Supporters of crossbows were asked in which deer season(s) should crossbow use be allowed. The selection “all bow seasons” was preferred (54%) by all respondents. The second most popular choice of all respondents was “all deer seasons” (24%).

Good attempt at spin though:D

[Swamp Ghost]

Good try Ghost.

54% of the supporters want it in all archery seasons and 24% want it in all deer seasons. Here is the text from the survey in case you are unclear.

PLACEMENT OF CROSSBOWS
► Supporters of crossbows were asked in which deer season(s) should crossbow use be allowed. The selection “all bow seasons” was preferred (54%) by all respondents. The second most popular choice of all respondents was “all deer seasons” (24%).

Good attempt at spin though:D

Spin? 54% of crossbow supporters wanted it in archery season. Those same supporters second choice was all deer seasons.

Nothing to spin.

http://forums.bowsite.com/tf/pics/00small11761115.JPG
It appears question 3 was "Check All That Apply" And only included supporters of crossbows.

[Swamp Ghost]

A crossbow is no more than a modern compound bow with a horizontal riser.

Swamp if I wasn't a supporter of x-bows for all, after reading all your posts on this subject based on your closed mind attitude you would have turned me to a supporter.

That's all fine and good, but I am far from close minded. If I felt anything would have a long term positive effect on MI's deer herd or it's hunters I would throw my support behind it 100%.

The fact is the crossbow is a change for the sake of change. I feel this change will effect few and will not provide a long term solution to any of the things people claim it will.

I feel that in 3-5 years when this thing washes out we will be right back here discussing ML's in Oct., another "any weapon" antlerless season in Oct., moving the date of the firearm opener or changing management strategies, etc.

Right down that slippery slope people don't like to talk about.

[November Sunrise]

If you say so. IF there was strong enough support this would have been a ballot issue long ago.

I can see why crossbow advocates were hesitant to take their fight to the polls.

:lol: - how do you come up with this stuff?

How many ballot initiatives are there as compared to proposed legislation - is the ratio even 1 to 500? Who in there right mind would pursue the headaches of a ballot initiative if there were any way possible to utilize the legislative process?

We've officially reached the point of utter silliness on this thread. Swamp Ghost, I'll pray for you misery to cease. Meanwhile, I'm going to take this opportunity to depart from the "mental stimulation" of crossbow threads.

Carry on fellas.

[Joe Archer]

The majority of hunters DO support the use of a crossbow for hunting, so do I.
One thing should be obvious; bow hunters have always been a minority. According to the most recent MI DNR report http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/3485_236922_7.pdf
in Michigan last year there were about 300,000 archery hunters and 600,000 firearms hunters. Of the 724,239 licenses sold, 620,192 were for firearms.
If you look at the numbers it should be obvious that the majority of hunters surveyed will be in favor of the cross bow.
I think questions yet to be answered are 1) what percentage of the 300,000 or so gun hunters will take up the cross bow? 2) What is the threshold for increased pressure that will lead to shortening the archery season or reducing bag limits? 3) What new rules will have to be instated to accommodate cross bow hunters? For example, will we have to start wearing orange hats in the future if October 1st hunting pressure parallels pressure seen on November 15th? 4) Will increased pressure in archery season trigger an earlier than normal nocturnal response by deer, thus reducing the overall harvest efficiency of hunters?
Sure, you have data from other states, but none of these states are Michigan. Only time will tell but one thing seems certain; archery hunters are a minority in this state. Until proven otherwise the rewards of belonging to this minority group are in jeopardy. Soon, opening day of bow season may be more like opening day of gun season. Unless you have witnessed and appreciated the difference first hand, you really can not understand what I am talking about.
<----<<<

[10PtCrossbow]

All right Ghost, let's look at it from the other side. Of all the supporters on the NJ survey, only 2% picked that it should be put in Gun season.

54% picked all bow seasons
24% picked all deer seasons
5% picked winter bow
2% picked permit and winter bo
2% picked permit bow
2% picked fall and winter bow
2% picked fall bow.

That comes to 91% for crossbows in some or all of the archery season.
Only 2% picked gun season. Dice the numbers how you want, it is for crossbows in archery season.

[Swamp Ghost]

:lol: - how do you come up with this stuff?

How many ballot initiatives are there as compared to proposed legislation - is the ratio even 1 to 500? Who in there right mind would pursue the headaches of a ballot initiative if there were any way possible to utilize the legislative process?

We've officially reached the point of utter silliness on this thread. Swamp Ghost, I'll pray for you misery to cease. Meanwhile, I'm going to take this opportunity to depart from the "mental stimulation" of crossbow threads.

Carry on fellas.

It worked for the dove bill didn't it?

I am not the one claiming "there is very strong support for crossbows in MI" by a number of signatures being collected.

If it was that strong they would have eagerly put it on the ballot, just like the dove folks.

Pretty silly......

[Swamp Ghost]

All right Ghost, let's look at it from the other side. Of all the supporters on the NJ survey, only 2% picked that it should be put in Gun season.

54% picked all bow seasons
24% picked all deer seasons
5% picked winter bow
2% picked permit and winter bo
2% picked permit bow
2% picked fall and winter bow
2% picked fall bow.

That comes to 91% for crossbows in some or all of the archery season.
Only 2% picked gun season. Dice the numbers how you want, it is for crossbows in archery season.

Sorry, but those were all the same supporters rating season preference and allowance, aka; check all that apply, aka; multiple choice, aka; circle all that apply.

[kmtpr]

I am from New Jersey. F&G survey was done fairly. Was a random survey. Majority of bow hunters did overwhelmingly approve crossbows in bow season. Those that spew the rhetoric that it was geared toward getting specific answers is ridiculous. As you can see the answers were multiple choice and one could answer more than once regarding some questions. There are several choices to "oppose" what was asked. Any question that did not indicate the option to oppose would be left blank and counted as such, IMO. Also, at the end one could list comments to explain further. :rolleyes:

[kmtpr]

Below is the link that clearly shows the NJ F&G survey results complete with easy-to-read graphs. :D Am sure this will give ya'll a better understanding regarding this survey.
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/pdf/2008/xbowsurvey07.pdf

[10PtCrossbow]

Sorry, but those were all the same supporters rating season preference and allowance, aka; check all that apply, aka; multiple choice, aka; circle all that apply.

When you say same supporters, you mean the 73% of people that were FOR Crossbow EXPANSION. Yeah, ok it was those same 73% of people.

[Munsterlndr]

One thing should be obvious; bow hunters have always been a minority. According to the most recent MI DNR report http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/3485_236922_7.pdf
in Michigan last year there were about 300,000 archery hunters and 600,000 firearms hunters. Of the 724,239 licenses sold, 620,192 were for firearms.
If you look at the numbers it should be obvious that the majority of hunters surveyed will be in favor of the cross bow.
I think questions yet to be answered are 1) what percentage of the 300,000 or so gun hunters will take up the cross bow? 2) What is the threshold for increased pressure that will lead to shortening the archery season or reducing bag limits? 3) What new rules will have to be instated to accommodate cross bow hunters? For example, will we have to start wearing orange hats in the future if October 1st hunting pressure parallels pressure seen on November 15th? 4) Will increased pressure in archery season trigger an earlier than normal nocturnal response by deer, thus reducing the overall harvest efficiency of hunters?
Sure, you have data from other states, but none of these states are Michigan. Only time will tell but one thing seems certain; archery hunters are a minority in this state. Until proven otherwise the rewards of belonging to this minority group are in jeopardy. Soon, opening day of bow season may be more like opening day of gun season. Unless you have witnessed and appreciated the difference first hand, you really can not understand what I am talking about.
<----<<<

Joe,

Let's say the crossbow proved wildly popular, beyond all expectations and a third of firearms hunters decided to buy one and take part in archery season. So that makes 100,000 new hunters in archery season. That would exceed slightly the 380,000+ archers that we had in 1998. Where archers required to wear orange then? Nope, I bow hunted in 1998, no orange required. Where the seasons cut back because of all of those hunters? Nope.

Keep in mind that only 15% of hunters in Michigan hunt public land, so you are talking about adding approx. 15,000 hunters to the public land ranks. Not even close to the 45,000 extra public land hunters that enter the woods on opening day of firearms season.

The impact on the herd would be negligible. The antlered harvest would increase at the most by around 7% but more likely it would be around 3-4%. The antlereless harvest would increase by 5% or so and every extra doe harvested is a plus in our state with it's overloaded deer population.

As far as increased archery pressure, it's spread out over a three month time frame. You want to see increased pressure, then maintain the status quo and see the introduction of more firearms seasons during archery seasons due to the fact that archers are not harvesting enough does. How do you think a 5 day firearms or muzzleloading season in October would impact the quality of your bow hunting experience?

One other thing about those 100,000 new archery hunters in our hypothetical. Figure they are going to spend at least $1,000 apiece once you factor in a crossbow, arrows, broadheads, etc. There is an 11% federal excise tax on archery equipment. That money gets sent back to Michigan specifically to the DNR to provide funding for projects that will benefit sportsmen in Michigan. That's $11 million dollars in additional funding that Michigan sportsman could benefit from. Something to keep in mind when looking at the impact of crossbows.

[Joe Archer]

Joe,

Let's say the crossbow proved wildly popular ...
Anyone can throw out numbers .... lets say it proved wildly popular and 95% opted for the crossbow...?

You want to see increased pressure, then maintain the status quo and see the introduction of more firearms seasons during archery seasons due to the fact that archers are not harvesting enough does.

From the DNR report doe made up about 40% of the archery harvest last year and only about 36.5% of the firearms harvest? WHO IS NOT HARVESTING ENOUGH DOE, and why would you expect them to do a better job with a cross bow?
Also, if you look at the DNR report you will see a decline about 200,000 FIREARMS hunters in the last decade. Archery hunters have always been a subset of firearms hunters. Stating that allowing crossbows will curb the decline in our current hunting population is just blowin smoke.
<----<<<

[Swamp Ghost]

When you say same supporters, you mean the 73% of people that were FOR Crossbow EXPANSION. Yeah, ok it was those same 73% of people.

Exactly 54% of the 73% that favor expansion want the crossbow in NJ's archery season. You do the math.

I wonder what happens when you add in the non-supporters of crossbow expansion? Hmmmmmm........

[BigBirdVA]

Exactly 54% of the 73% that favor expansion want the crossbow in NJ's archery season. You do the math.

I wonder what happens when you add in the non-supporters of crossbow expansion? Hmmmmmm........I did, NJ did and it looks like your state did. 94-14-2 was the correct answer.

You're cracking me up!!!! 73% of the hunters that responded approved it's use. You can slant, twist or spin it any way you like. It's well past a majority that approve xbows. So reviewing it looks like your statement that the NJ survey was done incorrectly doesn't hold much water. Hmmmm........... kind of like the rest of the anti-xbow argument.

[Swamp Ghost]

I did, NJ did and it looks like your state did. 94-14-2 was the correct answer.

You're cracking me up!!!! 73% of the hunters that responded approved it's use. You can slant, twist or spin it any way you like. It's well past a majority that approve xbows. So reviewing it looks like your statement that the NJ survey was done incorrectly doesn't hold much water. Hmmmm........... kind of like the rest of the anti-xbow argument.

73% of NJ hunters approve the use of a crossbow for hunting. 54% of those supporters approve of it in bowseason. Their slanted survey, not mine.

94-12-2 at the House level, still got the Senate and until sometime next year to gather lots of information to present. Gotta love our political process.......

Good luck hunting on Sundays.

[BigBirdVA]

73% of NJ hunters approve the use of a crossbow for hunting. 54% of those supporters approve of it in bowseason. Their slanted survey, not mine.

94-12-2 at the House level, still got the Senate and until sometime next year to gather lots of information to present. Gotta love our political process.......

Good luck hunting on Sundays.Thanks for the Sunday support. Then again being from VA we're used to doing in 6 days what it takes some 7 days to do. :D

[Swamp Ghost]

Thanks for the Sunday support. Then again being from VA we're used to doing in 6 days what it takes some 7 days to do. :D

No doubt! With the crossbow anything is possible.

LOL! :lol:

[BigBirdVA]

No doubt! With the crossbow anything is possible.

LOL! :lol:You're so right. And maybe soon you'll get to see that first hand.

[Munsterlndr]

Anyone can throw out numbers .... lets say it proved wildly popular and 95% opted for the crossbow...?


From the DNR report doe made up about 40% of the archery harvest last year and only about 36.5% of the firearms harvest? WHO IS NOT HARVESTING ENOUGH DOE, and why would you expect them to do a better job with a cross bow?
Also, if you look at the DNR report you will see a decline about 200,000 FIREARMS hunters in the last decade. Archery hunters have always been a subset of firearms hunters. Stating that allowing crossbows will curb the decline in our current hunting population is just blowin smoke.
<----<<<

Do you really believe that 95% of firearms hunters would spend the money and buy a crossbow? Come on Joe, let's a least be a little serious here. Ohio has around 500,000 hunters, not too many less than Michigan does. 200,000 of them hunt during archery season, about 56% of which have decided to use a crossbow. Ohio has a shorter firearms season so there should be a more compelling argument that more firearms hunters would want to extend their season,. yet 300,000 of them don't pick up a crossbow even though it's been legal for over 25 years.

Even if all 300,000 firearms hunters picked up a crossbow it would not be the end of the world. The average archery hunter hunts for 14 days out of the 84 day season, so those 300,000 would be spread out over the entire season. 85% hunt on private land. Most hunters are not going to shoot more than one deer a year. If the new crossbow guys harvested a deer during archery season then it's likely that they would harvest fewer during firearms or muzzleloading. It's not like we have too few deer in Michigan. The population has been rising for the last five years and is getting pretty close to that 2,000,000 deer tipping point. That many additional hunters may finally give the DNR the leverage to get the population under control. And $30 million + additional revenue for the DNR would be nothing to sneeze at, either. Think of the habitat improvement and land acquisition that could be funded with that income.

All hunters should be harvesting more does but the reason that archers are not doing their share is because every archer who chooses to has the opportunity to harvest two does a year with the combo license. The same cannot be said for firearms hunters who are limited to bucks only unless they can get an antlerless permit. That is why archers should be harvesting a higher percentage of does than firearms hunters. They have 84 days and two tags yet they only harvest a couple percentage points higher number of does. Crossbow hunters who will be hunting during archery and have the same hunters choice option that has been available to bow hunters for years will likely up the antlerless harvest substantially.

Yes we are losing both archery and firearms hunters. Anything we can do to hang on to some of them is worth while. Other states have increased the over 65 hunting demographic by crossbow inclusion. So what are YOU proposing to do to stop hunter loss? Or are you just interested in shooting down possible solutions without offering any solution to the problem yourself? ;)

[specificgravity]

Yes we are losing both archery and firearms hunters. Anything we can do to hang on to some of them is worth while. Other states have increased the over 65 hunting demographic by crossbow inclusion. So what are YOU proposing to do to stop hunter loss? Or are you just interested in shooting down possible solutions without offering any solution to the problem yourself? ;)

Geriatric parking spots on state land! And we'll bait them in with hard candies. ;)

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

Geriatric parking spots on state land! And we'll bait them in with hard candies. ;)

i like the round spearmint balls:lol: scent block you know:D

[Munsterlndr]

Geriatric parking spots on state land!

Yeah, but you only get one if you are 80% permanently disabled. ;)

[dx3]

Because you know if they're to lazy to practice with a regular bow you know they wont sit very long in the cold in december. Maybe the DNR just needs more poaching to chase.

[Liv4Huntin']

It worked for the dove bill didn't it?

I am not the one claiming "there is very strong support for crossbows in MI" by a number of signatures being collected.

If it was that strong they would have eagerly put it on the ballot, just like the dove folks.

Pretty silly......

Gee, swamp......... you keep bringing up the dove bill. Were you, by any chance, on the side of the HSUS and PETA in 'fighting' to keep dove hunting out of Michigan???????
~ m ~

[Swamp Ghost]

Gee, swamp......... you keep bringing up the dove bill. Were you, by any chance, on the side of the HSUS and PETA in 'fighting' to keep dove hunting out of Michigan???????
~ m ~

I have to go Indiana or Ohio to get some for the freezer. But is was fun while it lasted in MI.

Doesn't take away from the fact that they were effective with their ballot initiative.

[Joe Archer]

... So what are YOU proposing to do to stop hunter loss? Or are you just interested in shooting down possible solutions without offering any solution to the problem yourself? ;)
First off, even though I was opposed to allowing crossbows during the regular archery season, I want to extend a warm welcome to anyone who will be hunting the early fall for the first time! I would also ask them to please be aware of the limitations of the crossbow, sight it in and test it with the broadheads you will hunt with. To be effective with a crossbow you will need to take shots at animals under 30 yards that are broadside or slightly quartering. Unlike rifles; neck shots, shoulder shots, and sternum shots will just cripple the majority of animals.
To answer your question Munster, I think we need to find out "WHY" less people are hunting these days. Unless I know that answer, I can't really come up with a solution. Looking at the trends though, it really is obvious that bow hunters are just a subset of firearms hunters and we have lost 200,000 firearms hunters in the last decade. Crossbows haven't curtailed hunting decline in other states and I doubt that it will have much effect in Michigan.
My guess is that much of this decline is transient fluctuation, and we will see another spike when today's youth hunters mature. My own family is a great example of what I am talking about. I have three children, all have taken deer, and two of them in youth seasons. Due to time constraints of college, high school, and team commitments; NONE of them were able to hunt with me last year! This year my daughter is already looking forward to the youth season. My oldest son had already been shooting his bow with me and will definitely spend some time bow hunting this October. My 18 year old son just graduated high school, and he can't wait to spend his first week ever bow hunting the rut! So my family alone will be responsible for a .001% increase in hunting numbers for the 2008 season. :D
In any case, I have good friends that have only rifle hunted in the past and I have good friends that bow hunt. I am sure that I will have some great friends that take up the crossbow and I will graciously share the woods and help them in any manner I can.
These really are the ties that bind!
<----<<<

[marty]

First off, even though I was opposed to allowing crossbows during the regular archery season, I want to extend a warm welcome to anyone who will be hunting the early fall for the first time! I would also ask them to please be aware of the limitations of the crossbow, sight it in and test it with the broadheads you will hunt with. To be effective with a crossbow you will need to take shots at animals under 30 yards that are broadside or slightly quartering. Unlike rifles; neck shots, shoulder shots, and sternum shots will just cripple the majority of animals.
<----<<<

Joe are you kidding??:lol: crossbows are just like rifles. You can shoot them right out of the box No practice needed They're a point and shoot weapon anyone can buy one and become an instant deer hunter:lol:

Now for the real story. Not real:yikes: and you are right as rain. A hunter has to practice with a crossbow as much as any weapon he plans to hunt with. I shoot my weapons year round. I shot my crossbow the other day. Some days I pull out my deer rifle and squeeze off a few rounds:D

We owe it to our quarry to make the best shot possible to make a good clean kill. Nobody here at least I would hope wants to see an animal suffer. If crossbows are more accurate than compounds I'm for it. I know we all heard the story of the wounded buck the guy never recovers every year cause of a poor hit.:(

A lot happens cause you know guys practice a bit before the season and never take another shot till nov when the bucks are moving and here comes Mr Big:dizzy:. Well you know what the rest of the story is:yikes:

I hope full use of crossbows soon. That way I won't have to travel far for my acessories:lol:

[TOW]

Joe,

You are spot on.

There will be a learning curve for new hunters taking up a crossbow. It is encumbant on us as fellow archery hunters to make that learning curve as short as possible. We owe that to the sport we love and the animals that we pursue.

[sbooy42]

Joe,

You are spot on.

There will be a learning curve for new hunters taking up a crossbow. It is encumbant on us as fellow archery hunters to make that learning curve as short as possible. We owe that to the sport we love and the animals that we pursue.

Yep make it as short and easy as possible...
god forbid any hard work goes into acheiving something:rolleyes:

[TJD]

In my opinion, the crossbow is a hybrid between a gun and a bow. You can rest a crossbow on something for a steady shot. You don't have to draw and hold back to aim and shoot. It's cocked and ready to fire with a flip of the safety. You shoulder it, put your cheek against the stock, and look through a scope to fire. You can walk along through the woods with a crossbow shouldered and ready to fire. You can shoot a crossbow from a prone position(lying on the ground). For an example on ease of use(similar to a gun), my brother shot a disabled friend's crossbow recently and shot bullseyes on his first three shots ever with a crossbow.

These are just some of the reasons that I think it is a mistake to allow full inclusion of the crossbow into bowseason.

In the 15 years that I've bowhunted in Michigan, I've become fond of the fact that drawing and then holding back on a deer and taking aim and the movement associated with it, is one of the greatest challenges facing a bowhunter. Crossbows take away that challenge and they have too many other advantages that are similar to a firearm and that is why they belong in a different season. I don't think crossbow hunters will ruin my hunting when/if HB5741 is passed. I just don't believe that it's a weapon that deserves full inclusion into Michigan's bowseason.

[Liv4Huntin']

I have to go Indiana or Ohio to get some for the freezer. But is was fun while it lasted in MI.

Doesn't take away from the fact that they were effective with their ballot initiative.

As I see it, 'they' succeeded because of two issues:

#1) HSUS and cohorts poured 1.3 -2 MILLION dollars into the campaign to
stop dove hunting in Michigan (TV 'spots' influenced many 'fence sitters' .... and
#2) We hunters were DIVIDED on the issue and did NOT put up a united
front and make 'our voice' heard. There is a lesson there to be learned with regards to the crossbow issue, as well as other hunting/shooting issues that come up in the future.
~ m ~

[2PawsRiver]

I wish somebody would bury the "We have to support all forms of hunting by all forms of Hunters" next to the "N" Word.

Just because somebody wants to call something hunting, doesn't mean I should fall in line behind them and support it. There are guys that hunt Bears with Spears, a group that wanted to hunt via computers, I don't support it, and the fact they want to refer to it as "Hunting" doesn't mean I will support it.

#1) HSUS and cohorts poured 1.3 -2 MILLION dollars into the campaign to stop dove hunting in Michigan (TV 'spots' influenced many 'fence sitters'

Translates into the Anti's are more committed and put their money where their mouth is. Try to pry a few dollars out of the vast majority of todays sportsman to even support the outdoors.

Try to get a commitment of time from the Vast Majority of outdoorsmen towards pretty much anything and you will mostly get fair to good excuses.:lol:

Brings us back to my original thoughts on Crossbows and todays Outdoorsman. Did I see Crossbow coming......absolutely:)

[swampbuck]

Its been posted several times but lets try again,

There is not and has never been a "bow" season. It is archery season and a crossbow is archery equipment.

[Swamp Ghost]

Translates into the Anti's are more committed and put their money where their mouth is. Try to pry a few dollars out of the vast majority of todays sportsman to even support the outdoors.


Kind of brings us back to this whole revenue issue. The same guys claiming the crossbow will increase revenue are the same ones bellyaching over a license fee increase. Instead of guaranteeing revenue increases they throw their support behind a "logical conclusion".

Rob Peter to pay Paul, the MI way......

[butter21]

I really want to know why all you people on here that want crossbows want them. Unless physically cant pull back a bow of course. You guys keep talking about all these accessories that you can put on a compound bow and how its just like a crossbow. Then why dont you buy all those accessories and use a bow, O I THINK I KNOW WHY ITS B/C YOUR LAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wildcoy73]

I really want to know why all you people on here that want crossbows want them. Unless physically cant pull back a bow of course. You guys keep talking about all these accessories that you can put on a compound bow and how its just like a crossbow. Then why dont you buy all those accessories and use a bow, O I THINK I KNOW WHY ITS B/C YOUR LAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just so everyone knows I am lazy because I support crossbows.
someone is full of it. been shooting bows for 25 years. At this present time I own 6 diffrent compound oldest one being built back in 1973. I shoot my bows sevral times a week, I go out all year long and scout the area i am to be hunting. I carry my stand a mile back into the woods, but I am lazy. I work for a living and support my family. I am active with the scouts and sponsor an ice fishing outing for them every year, when i asked for help on this site I had one person show up. I take trouble youth out during the youth hunt, but I am the lazy one for all of this becuz I support crossbows.
That is bullsh8t. the way I look at it someone need to look at the reflection they see every morning and ask them self what have they done for Michigan and the outdoors. While your looking at this and your reflection I will be out on state land with my family and trash bags picking up trash that has been left.
I am proud of what I have done so you can have places to hunt and fish. So yes I AM PROUD TO BE LAZY.

[butter21]

Just so everyone knows I am lazy because I support crossbows.
someone is full of it. been shooting bows for 25 years. At this present time I own 6 diffrent compound oldest one being built back in 1973. I shoot my bows sevral times a week, I go out all year long and scout the area i am to be hunting. I carry my stand a mile back into the woods, but I am lazy. I work for a living and support my family. I am active with the scouts and sponsor an ice fishing outing for them every year, when i asked for help on this site I had one person show up. I take trouble youth out during the youth hunt, but I am the lazy one for all of this becuz I support crossbows.
That is bullsh8t. the way I look at it someone need to look at the reflection they see every morning and ask them self what have they done for Michigan and the outdoors. While your looking at this and your reflection I will be out on state land with my family and trash bags picking up trash that has been left.
I am proud of what I have done so you can have places to hunt and fish. So yes I AM PROUD TO BE LAZY.
I think its great that you do all of that. But my post was more saying/asking what all the reasons were for supporting crossbows. I see none besides laziness.

[wildcoy73]

I think its great that you do all of that. But my post was more saying/asking what all the reasons were for supporting crossbows. I see none besides laziness.
Lets take a run down to the city, many of problem youth and young adults running the streets. Not many of us would want to be in the woods with them and a rifle correct? well with the new rules I will be able to touch more people and show them what the lord has given to all of us. I feel safer with a crossbow than a rifle. This issue has came up over the last few days while i spent some time in downt town Grand rapids. And it is my way to help.
the biggest reason I support crossbow is for my children and wife. My girls can not pull 45 pounds back. and I am not going to make them work out to do it and take the starting joy of hunting away from them, the easiest way I can get them into the woods is with a crossbow, more enjoyable for them to learn to shot, less painfull, and they will still be learning the way of the woods and seeing the reason why I bow hunt. they will be shooting everyday with it so I do not see them as being lazy.
They can shot a bow at this time and hit the target at 20 yards so the problem is that they have not put in the time, for they have.
Will i use the crossbow? bet your a@@ I will, it's another toy i can use in the woods. My main weapon will still be my compound, but come late October I think it will be nice to sit in my pop-up with the crossbow on my lap. Just like the many guns I own Do I use every one of them each year? no i don't but i do have that option. right now I own 6 bows just for me and everyone of them is ready for the field, but I don't use them all during a season. I have the option to if i want to, and that what the crossbow is for me. stores energy thre bent limbs, propells a carbon shaft tiped with razor blades at an intended target. energy is transfered from the limbs to a string. and the range is still within 40 yards. Sound like something we have in the woods every October 1st right now.

[2PawsRiver]

While your looking at this and your reflection I will be out on state land with my family and trash bags picking up trash that has been left.


Need any help with putting that arm back in place.:lol:

[TheNatural]

Its been posted several times but lets try again,

There is not and has never been a "bow" season. It is archery season and a crossbow is archery equipment.
thats your opinion

[wildcoy73]

Need any help with putting that arm back in place.:lol:
Have you been out with me? No! do you know what it is like to not have land to hunt? Bet not. I have been without the chance to hunt for sevral years, so when i came back to Michigan to made a promise with myself to keep our woods clean and the waterways. I have been placing that into my children, and you should see the trash they bring home with them from walking to school. If you care to join me give me a pm and I will let ya join us. public land can only be if we take care of it.

[bigcountrysg]

thats your opinion


No it is not his Opinion. Here is the License list from the DNR website.
I do not see Bow License on that list. I see Archery on that list.

http://www.mdnr-elicense.com/common/popups/popframe.asp?url=licenses.asp


You know in every posting about crossbows there is you and a handful of others all negative. Nothing positive, forget change forget the possibility that this can help our dying economy. Forget the fact that we should be able to hunt deer with any weapon that is legal to own in the USA.

So you don't like crossbows. I think you made your position on this very clear to everyone on this site.

You do have your right to voice your opinion. I know that heck I defended that right for you for 7 years.

But it seems like you forgot to voice that opinion to your state rep, congressman, or anyone else that was there the day this was voted on.

[2PawsRiver]

You should see some of the trash I brought home when I was single......relax, just ribbing you.:D

[butter21]

Lets take a run down to the city, many of problem youth and young adults running the streets. Not many of us would want to be in the woods with them and a rifle correct? well with the new rules I will be able to touch more people and show them what the lord has given to all of us. I feel safer with a crossbow than a rifle. This issue has came up over the last few days while i spent some time in downt town Grand rapids. And it is my way to help.
the biggest reason I support crossbow is for my children and wife. My girls can not pull 45 pounds back. and I am not going to make them work out to do it and take the starting joy of hunting away from them, the easiest way I can get them into the woods is with a crossbow, more enjoyable for them to learn to shot, less painfull, and they will still be learning the way of the woods and seeing the reason why I bow hunt. they will be shooting everyday with it so I do not see them as being lazy.
They can shot a bow at this time and hit the target at 20 yards so the problem is that they have not put in the time, for they have.
Will i use the crossbow? bet your a@@ I will, it's another toy i can use in the woods. My main weapon will still be my compound, but come late October I think it will be nice to sit in my pop-up with the crossbow on my lap. Just like the many guns I own Do I use every one of them each year? no i don't but i do have that option. right now I own 6 bows just for me and everyone of them is ready for the field, but I don't use them all during a season. I have the option to if i want to, and that what the crossbow is for me. stores energy thre bent limbs, propells a carbon shaft tiped with razor blades at an intended target. energy is transfered from the limbs to a string. and the range is still within 40 yards. Sound like something we have in the woods every October 1st right now.

If you dont want the kids you work with in the woods with a rifle take them with a crossbow, during rifle season.

As for as your kids and wife. I started hunting with like a 35 pound bow and could still ethically kill an deer. If they cant pull 35 pounds or so back, then start them even lower and work their way up so that the time bow season starts they will be able to. Or you could still take your girls out with a crossbow in gun season or even go gun hunting, and still be teaching them the way of the woods.


Also compound bows dont hold the string back for you do they?

[marty]

If you dont want the kids you work with in the woods with a rifle take them with a crossbow, during rifle season.

As for as your kids and wife. I started hunting with like a 35 pound bow and could still ethically kill an deer. If they cant pull 35 pounds or so back, then start them even lower and work their way up so that the time bow season starts they will be able to. Or you could still take your girls out with a crossbow in gun season or even go gun hunting, and still be teaching them the way of the woods.


Also compound bows dont hold the string back for you do they?

Why take them in rifle when they have a youth hunt??

35pounds worked them up to it:yikes: why when she can use a crosbow:evil:

good idea of the kids hey let's get those kids out on the PT field at 0530 am sharp for training :lol: you guys are so full of it:lol::lol:

[wildcoy73]

Would be nice but a ten year old can not use a crossbow in the state of michigan. And yes all kids are diffrent some can pull back weights that alot of adults couod only wish for whioe others a kids with good heads on thier shoulder.
So I see you probably fought the youth hunt and lowering of the age. Man that sound like a lame reason. I still believe to this date that we as parants should beable to say when our child can hunt. Why should the goverment tell me how to raise my child, that do go out with me in the woods, and have been shooting since they have been 4 years old.
They received a 22 when they turn 5 years old. So my kids have more time spent shooting than alot of the gun hunter we have in the woods at this time.
The goal in this bill is to let them and all hunt.

[marty]

yea got a little ahead of myself:D anyway if they allow it I'd think it be great:). How may ten years can pull 35lbs anyway?? with this day and age kids don't have the time. If I can devote any quality time with kids with anything it's worth it for me.

A crossbow would give her better odds that my neighbor with his 80lb compund with all the fancys the next week anyway;) why make her hunt with 20-25 lbs where she has to limited her shots. A xbow doesn't promise her a deer that we all know but at least she get's a even chance

[TOW]

Yep make it as short and easy as possible...
god forbid any hard work goes into acheiving something:rolleyes:

That is not what I said.

Do you not believe that as hunters we have an obligation to newbies using any type of hunting equipment to bring them up to speed as quickly as possible?

[butter21]

yea got a little ahead of myself:D anyway if they allow it I'd think it be great:). How may ten years can pull 35lbs anyway?? with this day and age kids don't have the time. If I can devote any quality time with kids with anything it's worth it for me.

A crossbow would give her better odds that my neighbor with his 80lb compund with all the fancys the next week anyway;) why make her hunt with 20-25 lbs where she has to limited her shots. A xbow doesn't promise her a deer that we all know but at least she get's a even chance
Yea b/c know one has ever had to limit their shots b/c they werent pulling as much.

[butter21]

Would be nice but a ten year old can not use a crossbow in the state of michigan. And yes all kids are diffrent some can pull back weights that alot of adults couod only wish for whioe others a kids with good heads on thier shoulder.
So I see you probably fought the youth hunt and lowering of the age. Man that sound like a lame reason. I still believe to this date that we as parants should beable to say when our child can hunt. Why should the goverment tell me how to raise my child, that do go out with me in the woods, and have been shooting since they have been 4 years old.
They received a 22 when they turn 5 years old. So my kids have more time spent shooting than alot of the gun hunter we have in the woods at this time.
The goal in this bill is to let them and all hunt.
So if we made the law that only kids say 16 and under could use a crossbow then you would be happy. Without speaking for you im pretty sure you wouldnt. Why b/c you want to use one for yourself.

[wildcoy73]

If the rules would allow all youth and disable hunters to use crossbows than I would go for that. I do not need to use one myself, but as I stated if i own one and it was legal I would take it out once in a while. But i see problems with our current rules for the disable and unless this is changed in a major way we will have problems with it in the future.

[butter21]

If the rules would allow all youth and disable hunters to use crossbows than I would go for that. I do not need to use one myself, but as I stated if i own one and it was legal I would take it out once in a while. But i see problems with our current rules for the disable and unless this is changed in a major way we will have problems with it in the future.
Then why does it say in your signature "make crossbows legal for everyone." Why dont you push for better rules for older or disabled hunters instead of crossbows being legal for all.

[Riva]

Then why does it say in your signature "make crossbows legal for everyone." Why don't you push for better rules for older or disabled hunters instead of crossbows being legal for all.

Perhaps you are new to this discussion, perhaps not. However; let me fill you in on what the most predominant voice of archery hunting in this state said about "pushing for better rules for older or disabled hunters;

MBH supports the current standard for determining crossbow permit eligibility for physically challenged hunters. However we are opposed to lowering the level of permanent disability from 80% to 60%. Our Association acknowledges that the current evaluation process for crossbow permit applicants is expensive and frequently abused. We therefore support removal of the physician from the evaluation process as a means of addressing both issues. Also, we would be very supportive of a more vigorous scrutiny of crossbow permit applications by the DNR Law division to further address the abuse issue.

Is it starting to sink in yet? No wonder people now advocate full inclusion when you consider the thought process and organization that went into crafting a position statement like this. These are HUMAN BEINGS we are talking about and these guys come out with a statement that in essence says: We like the rules as they are and, if fact, we want to make if even more difficult for you people."

I have asked the MBH on numerous occasions through these forums what exactly do they mean by the term "vigorous scrutiny". To date, not one person from MBH has responded a syllable in response.:rolleyes:

I'm told that many MBH members have recently been spotted at Office Depot and Staples throughout Michigan purchasing up every little jar of "white out" on the shelves as they are soon to embark on a massive campaign to "white out" every single printed version on the planet containing their position statement that references "vigorous scrutiny". Some experts project that it take over 62,000 gallons of white out and take, over 18 years to complete the task. :)

[wildcoy73]

Reason for crossbows for all is just as it states. Any rules you make for the youth and disable will allway leave one disable person out on the side line. This should never happen, so the only way I know to keep it from happening is to allow crossbows during the season. At what point do we say that 60% is going to be allowed and the guy at 59% can not use the crossbow. than we change the rule again and again for someone will allways fight it. By allowing all the right to use the crossbow no one will be missed.

[butter21]

Reason for crossbows for all is just as it states. Any rules you make for the youth and disable will allway leave one disable person out on the side line. This should never happen, so the only way I know to keep it from happening is to allow crossbows during the season. At what point do we say that 60% is going to be allowed and the guy at 59% can not use the crossbow. than we change the rule again and again for someone will allways fight it. By allowing all the right to use the crossbow no one will be missed.
I agree with you on this to a point. But there is a reason that if you are above a certain percent that you cant use a crossbow. I know there will AWAYS be exceptions but im willing to bet that anyone that really is disabled, and really wants to bow hunt can get a crossbow permit. Now maybe everyone that WANTS one wont get one, but there is a big difference between WANT and NEED.

[marty]

Yea b/c know one has ever had to limit their shots b/c they werent pulling as much.

that's why the crossbow makes it fair. She got a better chance of making a good clean kill with the xbow than a 25lb bow and what's wrong with that??

[Whit1]

but im willing to bet that anyone that really is disabled, and really wants to bow hunt can get a crossbow permit.

And that's a bet that you would lose. Our oldest daughter is an occupational therapist who has worked for many years with those who are disabled. She just shakes her head in dismay when she relates.......without naming names......clients of her's that were disabled, but could not get a crossbow permit.

It's easy to sit on an internet forum and make comments about "really disabled" and "truly disabled" without having taken a step in those shoes.

[wildcoy73]

I agree with you on this to a point. But there is a reason that if you are above a certain percent that you cant use a crossbow. I know there will AWAYS be exceptions but im willing to bet that anyone that really is disabled, and really wants to bow hunt can get a crossbow permit. Now maybe everyone that WANTS one wont get one, but there is a big difference between WANT and NEED.
But to what point to we put a fellow hunter threw all the red tape? It is not an easy task to get this permit even when your a 100% disable vet. It will take you sevral years and alot of trips to get approved. if it was an easy thing to get as it should have been, we would more than likely not be having this fight on crossbows today.
So to you and the bet, you have already lost that one. Sevral of the gents with the permit on this site can tell you the hardship they had to go threw, and many other will tell you the head ache they are having to get a permit.
So the only way to get rid of the red tape is to make them legal for all. The United States of America, and yes even The Michigan Goverment consider them Archery equipment at this time.

[marty]

I wanted a permit I don't remember all the but just under 4 years of hassle to get a permit. I tried three times. First time I was denied . Next I went through VA and after waiting six months for the appt I was told they don't do it no more cause of all the red tape and BS.

Finally after my sweet insurance change I found a cool doc and a hunting P/T who got my permit. I lost out on a lot of hunting cause of all the crap. Now I hunt all of archery season I can ;). Crossbow retain me as hunter and that works for me.;) maybe others can enjoy the crossbow too:D

I just hope they make them legal soon so my "crossbow friends" can join me in the woods:D

[butter21]

But to what point to we put a fellow hunter threw all the red tape? It is not an easy task to get this permit even when your a 100% disable vet. It will take you sevral years and alot of trips to get approved. if it was an easy thing to get as it should have been, we would more than likely not be having this fight on crossbows today.
So to you and the bet, you have already lost that one. Sevral of the gents with the permit on this site can tell you the hardship they had to go threw, and many other will tell you the head ache they are having to get a permit.
So the only way to get rid of the red tape is to make them legal for all. The United States of America, and yes even The Michigan Goverment consider them Archery equipment at this time.
Yes then i said maybe make it easier to get a crossbow permit and, you really didnt like that idea either, b/c that would mean that you couldnt use one. It might be a hardship but they still got it and now they can enjoy the great outdoors using a crossbow. I stinks for them that they have to wait a long time, but you cant make so easy that we just give them out just b/c someone wants one. Its a shame that people take advantage of the situation so that people that really need one have to wait.

[butter21]

And that's a bet that you would lose. Our oldest daughter is an occupational therapist who has worked for many years with those who are disabled. She just shakes her head in dismay when she relates.......without naming names......clients of her's that were disabled, but could not get a crossbow permit.

It's easy to sit on an internet forum and make comments about "really disabled" and "truly disabled" without having taken a step in those shoes.
Then they obliviously didn't qualify for being able to get a crossbow permit. If they did then they would have got one.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

Then they obliviously didn't qualify for being able to get a crossbow permit. If they did then they would have got one.

i'll do you a big favor young man, don't ever go to a VA HOSPITAL with that attitude, you may not make it out of there in one piece. i have a buddy who used to be a past commander of the purple hearts association of michigan vets and he heard someone talking that crap like you are and ended up in jail. but he got out after they dismissed charges, he told them he had a flashback about the tet offensive he was in. that guy got some well needed attention at the va for free.

[butter21]

i'll do you a big favor young man, don't ever go to a VA HOSPITAL with that attitude, you may not make it out of there in one piece. i have a buddy who used to be a past commander of the purple hearts association of michigan vets and he heard someone talking that crap like you are and ended up in jail. but he got out after they dismissed charges, he told them he had a flashback about the tet offensive he was in. that guy got some well needed attention at the va for free.
Its true though he obliviously didnt qualify. Maybe they need to make it easier for someone to get it, but under the current rules he didnt qualify. Also your buddy can beat people up but he cant pull back a bow?

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

it only takes 1 hand to beat the HELL out of somebody! but it takes 2 to use a BOW! THINK ABOUT IT i have confidence you'll figure it out.:D

[phishon]

just another way for me to kill spikes and fork horns :D....can't wait....I'll be slingin bolts from a crossbow...but now I'll do it more often!!

[butter21]

it only takes 1 hand to beat the HELL out of somebody! but it takes 2 to use a BOW! THINK ABOUT IT i have confidence you'll figure it out.:D
Is he stable enough to be in the woods? Seems if hes having war flashbacks it wouldnt be safe wonder if someone walks up on him? :yikes:

[marty]

just another way for me to kill spikes and fork horns :D....can't wait....I'll be slingin bolts from a crossbow...but now I'll do it more often!!

:confused: doesn't he know how to tune his crossbow to pope and young yet??:lol: