new hunting opportunity

[swampbuck]

There has been movement of the legalisation of crossbows. Your support is needed now! We need all supporters to contact theyre Representatives immediately. Please go to this thread for more information.

THIS IS FOR REAL!

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238672

[MAttt]

Friends and family have already sent our emails
showing our support against it.
Thanks for the heads up.


Mattt

[Critter]

Wrote my rep my opinions against it, thanks for the heads up.

[sputty]

Myself and friends have sent E-mails in support of this issue

[buck snort]

I hope this does not pass, no support from me.

[Ack]

I hope this does not pass, no support from me.

Same here!

[Thunderhead]

No support here either.

[PsEbUcKmAsTeR17]

Ok I have a question for the guys that are against it. For what reasons are you against it?

Before you answer, I am not for it or against it. However, I feel as hunters, trappers, and fisherman we all need to stand together. We have enough negitivity with PETA and HSUS without not hurting each other. I mean what would having more support for hunters hurt? For that reason alone I would be in favor of it.

However, the way I read the bill is that it is a bill to permit hunting with a crossbow during the regular bowhunting season, is that correct?

If so I dont know how I feel about having a joint season. Why not just start another season with crossbows and shorten some of our other seasons?

Mainly I am just looking for a little more facts on this issue.

Any info would be much appreicated.

Thanks,

-Psebuckmaster17-

[ALLEYES]

Full support here !!!!

[Chris B.]

I TOTALLY support allowing the use of crossbows. Those against it use the same old arguements that were given prior to passage of the CPL law. We all know that all the gloom and doom never happened there either.

[Munsterlndr]

Ok I have a question for the guys that are against it. For what reasons are you against it?

Before you answer, I am not for it or against it. However, I feel as hunters, trappers, and fisherman we all need to stand together. We have enough negitivity with PETA and HSUS without not hurting each other. I mean what would having more support for hunters hurt? For that reason alone I would be in favor of it.

However, the way I read the bill is that it is a bill to permit hunting with a crossbow during the regular bowhunting season, is that correct?

If so I dont know how I feel about having a joint season. Why not just start another season with crossbows and shorten some of our other seasons?

Mainly I am just looking for a little more facts on this issue.

Any info would be much appreicated.

Thanks,

-Psebuckmaster17-

The bill simplifies things by allowing crossbows to be used in any season where it is currently legal to use a vertical bow. So that includes archery deer, turkey and small game seasons.

The reason for not just starting another season is primarily because if it was going to be a stand alone season, then you would have to shorten the existing archery season and that would reduce hunter opportunity. Michigan has 80,000 fewer bow hunters than just a decade ago. There is no reason to shorten any existing season, just allow hunters the freedom of choice of which type of bow they choose to use in seasons where bows are legal.

This bill is about increasing hunter opportunity. Those that oppose it are attempting to limit hunter opportunity for whatever personal reason (don't want to share the woods with other hunters, don't want someone else shooting their deer, etc.) Crossbow expansion has increased hunter opportunity in every state that it has occurred in without any negative impacts to the resource. In Ohio, where they have been allowed for 25 + years, it has played an important role in increasing the popularity of bow hunting and is viewed as an important management tool by the Ohio DNR.

[Swamp Ghost]

This bill is about unmotivated, able-bodied hunters who made the choice not to hunt with a bow that now want to be "accommodated" for their lack of motivation with the use of a crossbow and the folks who would love to enable their lack of motivation. Would you expect these same hunters, that are not motivated enough to pick up a bow, to lobby for a season of their own? Why would they when they can just reap the rewards of a season fought for by MI's bowhunters.

It has nothing to do with herd management, recreational opportunity, increasing hunter numbers or revenue.

Oh no! Not the "anti-hunter" strawman!

Can he please be trotted out some more whenever their is a controversial/hottly debated topic between hunters.......

The fact is the crossbow doesn't bring hunters together, doesn't recruit new hunters, doesn't retain hunters, doesn't help with deer herd management.

I see a whole lots of folks talk about how technology and how it's made bowhunting so "easy".

If it's so easy, why in the world would anyone want to use a crossbow?

Could it be that some are trying the circumvent even the compounds "ease of use"?

Talk about anti-hunter ammo.

Don't concern yourself with anti-hunters who make up maybe, what 5-10% of the population.

Hunters should be concerned with how they look towards people that don't hunt. They make up close to 80% of the population and close to 90% of the population support hunting.

If you are worried about perception being reality look no further than the recent dove bill. Then look into how the population that supports hunting negatively views the crossbow. The same public that holds hunters using a bow in high regard, thats the reality you are faced with.

Some hunter's feel that everyone is welcome in the woods hunting as long as it's legal. Even though some method or equipment might be viewed as distasteful, controversial, or unpopular, we all need to be united as hunters to defend hunting from antihunters.

I feel the future of hunting is best protected by policing our own ranks, eliminating the questionable practices and equipment that makes hunting look bad and erode public support. I feel this is important because I feel that non-hunters will ultimately determine the fate of our sport at the voting booth, not hunters vs anti-hunters arguing, so maintaining and building public support for hunting is essential.

While you guys rant that any restriction of "choice" is a "concession" to or ammo for antihunting, we are losing the battle that matters.

We may very well lose the majority of the non-hunters that currently support hunting because they feel it is an honorable tradition.

[Liv4Huntin']

This bill is about unmotivated, able-bodied hunters who made the choice not to hunt with a bow that now want to be "accommodated" for their lack of motivation with the use of a crossbow and the folks who would love to enable their lack of motivation. Would you expect these same hunters, that are not motivated enough to pick up a bow, to lobby for a season of their own? Why would they when they can just reap the rewards of a season fought for by MI's bowhunters.

It has nothing to do with herd management, recreational opportunity, increasing hunter numbers or revenue.

Please, Swamp, post for us here your facts to back up those statements. Thank you, in advance.
~ m ~

[TJD]

No support from me either. I would have supported the original bill that was supposed to make it easier for the disabled to obtain crossbow permits, but I do not support full inclusion of the crossbow into our current bowseason.

[michigandeerslayer]

This bill is about unmotivated, able-bodied hunters who made the choice not to hunt with a bow that now want to be "accommodated" for their lack of motivation with the use of a crossbow and the folks who would love to enable their lack of motivation. Would you expect these same hunters, that are not motivated enough to pick up a bow, to lobby for a season of their own? Why would they when they can just reap the rewards of a season fought for by MI's bowhunters.

It has nothing to do with herd management, recreational opportunity, increasing hunter numbers or revenue.

This is the most Full of bs comment that I have read. It is about sportsman having a choice, would you rather people not hunt at all unless they hunt under your rules. Give me a break, this is so self centered I don't know what to say

Your song is getting old, us poor bow hunters, Im all about bow hunting I prefer bowhunting but I also prefer a choice of weapons. Sounds to me that you are afraid that some one might take a deer that you cant.

A dead deer is a dead deer, it comes down to practice, patience and preperation. If you don't do those, you don't have to worry about what weapon you use

[TJO]

There are many many supporters of this bill and way to many facts that support the unrestricted use during the archery season. You non-supporters do not have any facts to base your case upon other than (I don't want it).
I use to be against it until I started to read and learn and be open minded about the subject now I am a full supporter because to me it really don't make a difference what type of bow someone uses to take a deer. As far as I'm concerned the only people that I respect not wanting the x-bow are those that use traditional equipment not all that use to moderen day compound with all the bell's and whisles you IMO don;t have a leg to stand on.

[Swamp Ghost]

Show the numbers from states that actually track crossbow use by "crossbow hunting" license sales.

Show the numbers of increased hunters, show the number of hours of recreation that was increased per hunter, show me the increased number of antlerless deer harvested in theses states, show the number of hunters retained solely by the legalization of the crossbow.

I can't wait to be blown away by the savior of hunting, the crossbow.:rolleyes:

[Swamp Ghost]

This is the most Full of bs comment that I have read. It is about sportsman having a choice, would you rather people not hunt at all unless they hunt under your rules. Give me a break, this is so self centered I don't know what to say

Your song is getting old, us poor bow hunters, Im all about bow hunting I prefer bowhunting but I also prefer a choice of weapons. Sounds to me that you are afraid that some one might take a deer that you cant.

A dead deer is a dead deer, it comes down to practice, patience and preperation. If you don't do those, you don't have to worry about what weapon you use

My rules? I wonder why the DNR even has to enforce a law with that logic.

As far as deer, I encourage every hunter to kill more of "MY" deer. Seeing how doe's make up 90% or more of "MY" harvests the majority of MI hunters have a lot of catching up to do.

I wonder why the DNR only allows "disabled" hunters to use a crossbow?

Now able-bodied hunters that want to use/allow that same weapon have the nerve to tell a bowhunter using a legal weapon "that they don't have a leg to stand on". Please......

[Falk]

Swamp Ghost, I agree with your views completly. Crossbows for hadicapped hunters and maybe seniors. No exceptions. The DNR has it right on this issue. If you want to hunt with a bow, get off your you know what and start practicing. No support for this bill from me.

[cadillacjethro]

Show the numbers from states that actually track crossbow use by "crossbow hunting" license sales.

Show the numbers of increased hunters, show the number of hours of recreation that was increased per hunter, show me the increased number of antlerless deer harvested in theses states, show the number of hunters retained solely by the legalization of the crossbow.

I can't wait to be blown away by the savior of hunting, the crossbow.:rolleyes:

The tone of your post infers (at least to me) that you think there will be very little change in hunter numbers or harvest. If this is true, my question would be what are you afraid of. If this were taking something away from you and I it would not have my support. It doesn't, so it does.

[Swamp Ghost]

The tone of your post infers (at least to me) that you think there will be very little change in hunter numbers or harvest. If this is true, my question would be what are you afraid of. If this were taking something away from you and I it would not have my support. It doesn't, so it does.

The fact of the matter is no one nows what will happen in MI.

To use increasing hunter recruitment, hunter retention, recreational opportunity and improving herd management arguments as a basis for legalizing unrestricted crossbow use is misleading and far from fact.

[TJO]

I think one of the reasons so many are for the use of x-bows is that of a aging group of hunters. As we get older we don't have the abilities we once had when we were young. We look at things differently we use more logic, common sense, are views on life change and how we see things. We have accepted the fact that change does happen wheather we like it or not we start using the word (we) insted of (I) or me. Not eveybody has the time to practice or the place to practice as some do. I would be totally against this bill if it took something away from us I would be against this bill if it hurt our deer herd I would be against this bill if it offered some big advantage over the moderen compound but it don't and that's the real bottom line it really don't and to have another tool in the box that could be used by choise to harvest a deer that I already have a legal tag for I just don't see the down side to the whole idea.
Swamp you have to much emotion in this you have your reasons and that's fine but to date I have not read anything from you or anyone else on here that would sway my thinking back to only disabled. And by the way I bow hunt and have for 40 yrs I hunt with a recurve and have several compounds and would not just drop those to use a x-bow but as an american and military I support the right in this country of freedom of choise as long as that choise does not harm anyone or anything and to me this is one of those choises.

[cadillacjethro]

The fact of the matter is no one nows what will happen in MI.

To use increasing hunter recruitment, hunter retention, recreational opportunity and improving herd management arguments as a basis for legalizing unrestricted crossbow use is misleading and far from fact.


While I agree no one knows for sure what will happen, there are comparables. The numbers for hunter recruitment and retention are pretty grim and in my opinion will only get worse if nothing is done. Is this the end all, cure all to deer hunting in Michigan? Absolutely not. It might be a step in the right direction if only a small one.

[Swamp Ghost]

I think one of the reasons so many are for the use of x-bows is that of a aging group of hunters. As we get older we don't have the abilities we once had when we were young. We look at things differently we use more logic, common sense, are views on life change and how we see things. We have accepted the fact that change does happen wheather we like it or not we start using the word (we) insted of (I) or me. Not eveybody has the time to practice or the place to practice as some do. I would be totally against this bill if it took something away from us I would be against this bill if it hurt our deer herd I would be against this bill if it offered some big advantage over the moderen compound but it don't and that's the real bottom line it really don't and to have another tool in the box that could be used by choise to harvest a deer that I already have a legal tag for I just don't see the down side to the whole idea.
Swamp you have to much emotion in this you have your reasons and that's fine but to date I have not read anything from you or anyone else on here that would sway my thinking back to only disabled. And by the way I bow hunt and have for 40 yrs I hunt with a recurve and have several compounds and would not just drop those to use a x-bow but as an american and military I support the right in this country of freedom of choise as long as that choise does not harm anyone or anything and to me this is one of those choises.

Changing for the sake of change accomplishes nothing and making excuses for someone not practicing or becoming proficient with a weapon is excusing the ethically inexcusable.

I support everyone's right to use a crossbow, if they want to. Just not in bowseason.

[Swamp Ghost]

While I agree no one knows for sure what will happen, there are comparables. The numbers for hunter recruitment and retention are pretty grim and in my opinion will only get worse if nothing is done. Is this the end all, cure all to deer hunting in Michigan? Absolutely not. It might be a step in the right direction if only a small one.

Allowing the same hunters another weapon in the same seasons under the same regulations is taking another step backwards.

It's akin to robbing Peter to pay Paul.

If antlerless harvests exceeded antlered harvests and the age structure was balanced and MI hunters buck harvests were limited. I would have an entirely different opinion of expanding opportunity to MI's unmotivated hunters.

[Munsterlndr]

The fact of the matter is no one nows what will happen in MI.

To use increasing hunter recruitment, hunter retention, recreational opportunity and improving herd management arguments as a basis for legalizing unrestricted crossbow use is misleading and far from fact.

Since they are facts they are hardly misleading. You keep ignoring the proof that is out there, hoping that by repeating a denial often enough that you might fool some people.

Fact - Wisconsin saw an increase in the over 65 year old hunter demographic after it expanded crossbow use for those over 65. That is a demonstrable example of hunter retention and specifically refutes your claim that crossbows do not contribute to aging hunter retention. A number of other states, including Illinois, have enacted senior crossbow rules. Why would they do that if there was no evidence that it could increase hunter retention?

Fact - There are thousands of kids who are interested in hunting who are not physically capable of pulling a bow that is adequate to ethically harvest a deer. Crossbows give them the opportunity to get out in the field and start hunting, without having to wait until they are a little older. We've seen pictures of members kids posted on MS, who were successfully able to harvest deer in Ohio with crossbows, when they had not reached the physical maturity to pull a vertical bow. A youngster who successfully harvest a deer at that age, more than likely will be hooked on hunting. How many bow hunters started off as firearms hunters first, because at the time they could not handle a bow? Ten's if not hundreds of thousands. Using crossbows to get kids hooked on hunting is a powerful tool which will ultimately boost the number of vertical bow hunters as kids mature and want to experiment with other weapons. Yet you would deny those kids that can't pull a bow, yet are legally old enough to hunt the opportunity to get out there and get some experience. It makes no sense.

Fact -
The technological changes which have occurred in Muzzleloading and compound bow technology have made it more convenient and easier for hundreds of thousands of Michigan hunters to participate in seasons outside of the firearms deer season. This is almost undeniable. The same thing holds true with crossbows providing increased opportunity. To deny that is simply silly.

Fact -
Wildlife Biologists have confirmed that the crossbow is an effective tool which contributes to their ability to effectively manage wildlife. It is a undeniable fact that more does would be harvested in Michigan if crossbow use was expanded. By definition this would have a positive impact on management in our state.

All we get from you is denial and obfuscation. You don't present any facts that support you contentions, merely your opinions.

Believing that Michigan will somehow react uniquely when compared to other states is sadly reminiscent of "the world is flat", at least when you are in Michigan. :rolleyes:

For once give us an iota of data that shows a potentially negative impact in Michigan instead of the same old, deny, deny emotional BS.

[specificgravity]

Since they are facts they are hardly misleading. You keep ignoring the proof that is out there, hoping that by repeating a denial often enough that you might fool some people.

Fact - Wisconsin saw an increase in the over 65 year old hunter demographic after it expanded crossbow use for those over 65. That is a demonstrable example of hunter retention and specifically refutes your claim that crossbows do not contribute to aging hunter retention. A number of other states, including Illinois, have enacted senior crossbow rules. Why would they do that if there was no evidence that it could increase hunter retention?

Yes, but this really isn't about expanding crossbow use just for seniors now is it? This is about a broad legalization which means we're getting a little apples and oranges action going on.

Fact - There are thousands of kids who are interested in hunting who are not physically capable of pulling a bow that is adequate to ethically harvest a deer. Crossbows give them the opportunity to get out in the field and start hunting, without having to wait until they are a little older. We've seen pictures of members kids posted on MS, who were successfully able to harvest deer in Ohio with crossbows, when they had not reached the physical maturity to pull a vertical bow. A youngster who successfully harvest a deer at that age, more than likely will be hooked on hunting. How many bow hunters started off as firearms hunters first, because at the time they could not handle a bow? Ten's if not hundreds of thousands. Using crossbows to get kids hooked on hunting is a powerful tool which will ultimately boost the number of vertical bow hunters as kids mature and want to experiment with other weapons. Yet you would deny those kids that can't pull a bow, yet are legally old enough to hunt the opportunity to get out there and get some experience. It makes no sense.

I've not seen the facts on that but would like to. As a personal example I'm not a very big guy (5'7" on my tall days :)) but I started hunting at the first legal opportunity (12 y/o) with a PSE USA Spirit pulling 52lbs. I spent two years bowhunting before even picking up a gun to hunt deer.

Fact -
The technological changes which have occurred in Muzzleloading and compound bow technology have made it more convenient and easier for hundreds of thousands of Michigan hunters to participate in seasons outside of the firearms deer season. This is almost undeniable. The same thing holds true with crossbows providing increased opportunity. To deny that is simply silly.

Along that same line of thinking is the separation of seasons for different styles of weapons. Many feel as though a crossbow is a different weapon and thus should have a different season.

Fact -
Wildlife Biologists have confirmed that the crossbow is an effective tool which contributes to their ability to effectively manage wildlife. It is a undeniable fact that more does would be harvested in Michigan if crossbow use was expanded. By definition this would have a positive impact on management in our state.

Positive impact is going to be subjective here considering that bowhunters kill more bucks than does and if we were to extrapolate that I don't think we're going to see any improvement.

All we get from you is denial and obfuscation. You don't present any facts that support you contentions, merely your opinions.

Believing that Michigan will somehow react uniquely when compared to other states is sadly reminiscent of "the world is flat", at least when you are in Michigan. :rolleyes:

For once give us an iota of data that shows a potentially negative impact in Michigan instead of the same old, deny, deny emotional BS.

Emotional BS? Nah, tt is a fact that a crossbow operates differently than a compound bow and thus my opinion that they should be used during a separate season. Every single time this is brought up you immediately dismiss it. This seems to be a little pot to kettle action here. :)

And for those of you who believe that a differing opinion on this matter is a division in our ranks I have to whole heartedly disagree because to think so is just an appeal to the dramatic. This is not an assault on the rights of hunters because as it stands crossbows are not illegal but rather not allowed in a season that we disagree upon. Now if legislation were brought forth to make it illegal you better believe that all of us would stand up to oppose it.

[Swamp Ghost]

Fact - Wisconsin saw an increase in the over 65 year old hunter demographic after it expanded crossbow use for those over 65. That is a demonstrable example of hunter retention and specifically refutes your claim that crossbows do not contribute to aging hunter retention. A number of other states, including Illinois, have enacted senior crossbow rules. Why would they do that if there was no evidence that it could increase hunter retention?

How many? Percentages maybe?

Fact- Crossbow use by seniors is a separate issue.



Fact - There are thousands of kids who are interested in hunting who are not physically capable of pulling a bow that is adequate to ethically harvest a deer. Crossbows give them the opportunity to get out in the field and start hunting, without having to wait until they are a little older. We've seen pictures of members kids posted on MS, who were successfully able to harvest deer in Ohio with crossbows, when they had not reached the physical maturity to pull a vertical bow. A youngster who successfully harvest a deer at that age, more than likely will be hooked on hunting. How many bow hunters started off as firearms hunters first, because at the time they could not handle a bow? Ten's if not hundreds of thousands. Using crossbows to get kids hooked on hunting is a powerful tool which will ultimately boost the number of vertical bow hunters as kids mature and want to experiment with other weapons. Yet you would deny those kids that can't pull a bow, yet are legally old enough to hunt the opportunity to get out there and get some experience. It makes no sense.

Fact- I've seen plenty of "youth" will similar results in MI.

Fact- Fishing and small game hunting is more of a "hook" than crossbow use.

Fact- Crossbows are described by crossbow advocates as "lunky", front-end heavy weapons that require a great deal of physical dexterity to use. Why advocate such a weapon for youth hunter?

Fact- Crossbow users do not laterally shift to vertical bow use

Fact- Kids who are interested in hunting who are not physically capable of pulling a bow aren't what I consider "able-bodied". And use by youth hunters is also a separate issue.



Fact -
The technological changes which have occurred in Muzzleloading and compound bow technology have made it more convenient and easier for hundreds of thousands of Michigan hunters to participate in seasons outside of the firearms deer season. This is almost undeniable. The same thing holds true with crossbows providing increased opportunity. To deny that is simply silly.

Fact- The separate seasons away from MI's gunseason has a great deal of attraction to the hunters that already choose to participate in them.

Fact- One more reason to pursue a separate season



Fact -
Wildlife Biologists have confirmed that the crossbow is an effective tool which contributes to their ability to effectively manage wildlife. It is a undeniable fact that more does would be harvested in Michigan if crossbow use was expanded. By definition this would have a positive impact on management in our state.

Fact- The above opinion is shellgame spin of the highest order. Deer herd management has NOTHING to do with weapons and EVERYTHING to do with regulations.

Fact- You have yet to show one figure or fact, that shows the crossbow and the crossbow alone will do any of the things you say it will.

[TJO]

Swamp your right changing just for the sake of change means nothing but changing for the sake of opportunity means something. Swamp if you think that time is not an issue you are not like most people, time is a premium for most of people today so not having the time to become proficient with a vertical bow is an issue and keeps a lot of sportspeople from enjoying the sport. Again if the use of x-bows during the archery season was detrimental to the sport or the deer herd I would stand right next to you and others but as it stands none of the anti's have had IMO any facts that would turn me.

[Munsterlndr]

Yes, but this really isn't about expanding crossbow use just for seniors now is it? This is about a broad legalization which means we're getting a little apples and oranges action going on.
No, it's about expanding crossbow use for everybody but seniors are a sub-set of the whole who would benefit. I was responding to the four points that SG had made in the previous post and one of them was hunter retention. Hunter retention is one of the benefits that crossbows can bring. The majority of hunters who leave the bow hunting ranks do so because of physical issues not serious to qualify for a permit or simply because of age. Nothing apples or oranges about it. Retention of seniors is a positive benefit of crossbows. Look to Wisconsin for confirmation of that fact, the over 65 demographic increased after they made crossbows legal for seniors. The whole point of broad legalization is that it avoids the necessity of a bunch of different criteria for the different sub-sets of hunters who would benefit. Those criteria are so arbitrary as to be ridiculous. So we tell someone that is 81% disabled that they qualify but if your 79% disabled your our of luck. Or if your 65 or older we'll let you hunt with one but if your 64 and a half with sciatica and a bad shoulder you'll just have to sit out this season and wait till next year. Why in god's name are we as hunters coming up with a bunch of minutiae designed to exclude people from participating in the sport of hunting in a manner that they enjoy? Are we so self centered that we think that only the way we hunt is legitimate? I don't plan to hunt with a spear or an atlatl or a boomerang for that manner. But if another hunter wants to use one and they can demonstrate that it's an ethical weapon that can cleanly harvest a deer, then I will back them 100% and invite them to share any season that they want to with me. Gee, a spear is not a bow, so therefore it should only be allowed in firearms season. Do you see how stupid that line of reasoning sounds?

I've not seen the facts on that but would like to. As a personal example I'm not a very big guy (5'7" on my tall days :)) but I started hunting at the first legal opportunity (12 y/o) with a PSE USA Spirit pulling 52lbs. I spent two years bowhunting before even picking up a gun to hunt deer.

So because you were able to start pulling a 52 lb. bow then everybody can and should? My daughter is in the lowest 10th percentile in height and weight for her age. By the time she is ready to hunt I will be very surprised if she has the physical capability of pulling back a 40 lb. bow. yeah, I know Bob Garner brags about shooting deer with a 27 lb bow and how that's all you need but I would disagree. It's why many states have minimum poundage. I don't want to set up my kid for failure and the negative experience of wounding and not recovering their first deer. When she starts hunting I'm going to be right by her side. Why should it bother you if she uses a crossbow that I am able to load and cock for her? Why would you think that keeping some kids (and woman for that matter) from having an opportunity to go hunting before they can pull a bow is a positive for our sport? I guess I'll never understand the mentality of those who think if you don't do things a certain way using certain equipment that you are some how not worthy of participating. Ask NS if he thinks that his son being able to harvest a deer in Ohio with a crossbow was a positive or a negative experience and whether he thinks that the fact that a crossbow was used "cheapened" or diminished the pleasure that his son obtained from a successful harvest.

Along that same line of thinking is the separation of seasons for different styles of weapons. Many feel as though a crossbow is a different weapon and thus should have a different season.

Positive impact is going to be subjective here considering that bowhunters kill more bucks than does and if we were to extrapolate that I don't think we're going to see any improvement.

Emotional BS? Nah, tt is a fact that a crossbow operates differently than a compound bow and thus my opinion that they should be used during a separate season. Every single time this is brought up you immediately dismiss it. This seems to be a little pot to kettle action here. :)
Being a relative newbie (at least I think you are, although I get a strange feeling of deja vu when I read some of your posts ;)) you might want to avail yourself of the search feature and look back at some of the previous threads that I have started specifically calling for a stand-alone crossbow season that would run concurrently with part of archery season. The suggestion was met with violent opposition from most of the vertical bow hunters who oppose crossbows. I've come to the conclusion that some of the opponents of crossbows who would never in a million years support a stand alone season like to throw out that suggestion as a strawman to give them the appearance of being reasonable. ;) I only dismiss it because it's used as a ruse by the anti's to continue to keep crossbows in firearms season. As far as whether a crossbow is a different weapon, that horse has been beat to death long ago. It's a silent weapon that kills with a blade and other than that the differences are totally superficial. Vertical bows, Crossbows, spears, atlatl's whatever, if it's silent and used a blade then it meets the criteria.

And for those of you who believe that a differing opinion on this matter is a division in our ranks I have to whole heartedly disagree because to think so is just an appeal to the dramatic. This is not an assault on the rights of hunters because as it stands crossbows are not illegal but rather not allowed in a season that we disagree upon. Now if legislation were brought forth to make it illegal you better believe that all of us would stand up to oppose it.
Wrap it up in whatever kind of package you want to, by limiting hunter opportunity you are not acting in the best interest of our sport. Just as firearms hunters were wrong when they opposed Fred Bears efforts to establish a stand alone archery season. Bow hunters had the opportunity to hunt during the established firearms season, they did not "need" a season of their own. But they made the case that it would not hurt the resource and that they should have the opportunity to use the weapon of their choice in a season outside of firearms season. The firearms hunters who opposed this were wrong then and the bow hunters who oppose the expansion of crossbows now are just as misguided.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

The fact of the matter is no one nows what will happen in MI.

To use increasing hunter recruitment, hunter retention, recreational opportunity and improving herd management arguments as a basis for legalizing unrestricted crossbow use is misleading and far from fact.

and just what are the FACTS ? none shown so far -----hmmmmmm!:dizzy:

[Chris B.]

I'm not one to argue,but......On October 1st,I will be in my tree stand,on my 10 acres that I have been harvesting deer from for 19 yrs. I will have my archery tag in my pocket.When that 2 year old doe steps into my shooting lane,will it matter to anyone other than me that I will take her with my Excalibur crossbow instead of my Matthews Solo Cam ???

[7MM Magnum]

FULL SUPPORT of HB-5741 !! :D

Sent off a couple of letters last week stating the same. ;)

[michigandeerslayer]

Changing for the sake of change accomplishes nothing and making excuses for someone not practicing or becoming proficient with a weapon is excusing the ethically inexcusable.

I support everyone's right to use a crossbow, if they want to. Just not in bowseason.

what is the difference if it is "bow season or gun season"

With this logic, you should be telling everyone that they cant use a muzzle- loader during gun season or dont use a bow during gun season.


A broadhead is a broadhead if it comes from a vertical or horizontal bow :)


Sound to me this is border line discrimination, telling people they cant have a choice. We live in a free country, times are changing:D

[7MM Magnum]

what is the difference if it is "bow season or gun season"

With this logic, you should be telling everyone that they cant use a muzzle- loader during gun season or dont use a bow during gun season.


A broadhead is a broadhead if it comes from a vertical or horizontal bow :)


Sound to me this is border line discrimination, telling people they cant have a choice. We live in a free country, times are changing:D


Nawwww,... Swamp just fell into that "Traditionalists" hard-line crack and doesn't know what to do about it. :lol:

Seriously though,.. Swamp I told you about a month ago on one of the original crossBOW threads that this was inevitable,.. you thought it would never come to fruition BUT,... the day is here, and the House Bill is already in the works. ;)

This is a free country.. and the freedom of CHOICE is one of the most important freedoms available to us. The inability for people like you to open up to the full inclusion of crossBOWS for everyone and in any of the seasons that are set by the governing department is just plain arrogant, selfish, and WISHFUL thinking on the part of traditional archers.

Welcome to the 21st century! ;):)

[7MM Magnum]

RIVA,.. PM sent but your box is TOO full. :(

[Swamp Ghost]

and just what are the FACTS ? none shown so far -----hmmmmmm!:dizzy:


Yep, as evidenced by Munster's opinion laced spin.

The only fact I need is that the DNR keeps crossbow use restricted.

This is the same crossbow legislation brought before MI government every year. I don't know why you guys are so giddy.

[Swamp Ghost]

what is the difference if it is "bow season or gun season"

With this logic, you should be telling everyone that they cant use a muzzle- loader during gun season or dont use a bow during gun season.


A broadhead is a broadhead if it comes from a vertical or horizontal bow :)


Sound to me this is border line discrimination, telling people they cant have a choice. We live in a free country, times are changing:D

I don't tell anyone anything, the DNR regulates hunters, their weapons and their seasons.

I'm sure you are smart enough to comprehend the "lesser weapons" theory of allowing "lesser weapons into other seasons, but limiting superior weapons from special seasons.

Obviously, crossbows should be allowed for use in gun season, or ML season, as they are lesser weapons and require more skill to utilize than guns or ML's. They should be excluded from archery season for the same reason.

Crossbow advocates have to prove that it is a lesser or equivalent weapon to the bow to be used in bow season. Precisely why crossbow use is and will continue to be restricted in MI.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

Yep, as evidenced by Munster's opinion laced spin.

The only fact I need is that the DNR keeps crossbow use restricted.

This is the same crossbow legislation brought before MI government every year. I don't know why you guys are so giddy.

WRONG AGAIN SWAMPY ! :lol: it's the nrc that keeps crossbows restricted and thats a FACT ! go have another gallon of KOOL AID. the dnr are for crossbow hunting JUST WATCH/LISTEN/SEE:lol

this is the buck whacker and stacker

[Thunderhead]

the bow hunters who oppose the expansion of crossbows now are just as misguided.

In your opinion.

You guys are really going to be pissed when this doesn't pass. ;)

Can't wait to see the threads..............

[michigandeerslayer]

In your opinion.

You guys are really going to be pissed when this doesn't pass. ;)

Can't wait to see the threads..............

I can obtain a permit :) One good thing about my injuries, is I can still hunt with a arrow, just not my first choice

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

In your opinion.

You guys are really going to be pissed when this doesn't pass. ;)

Can't wait to see the threads..............

:lol: i already got my permit:lol:watch out thunderhead/swampy i'll be in the woods looking for your buck with this

[Munsterlndr]

I'm sure you are smart enough to comprehend the "lesser weapons" theory of allowing "lesser weapons into other seasons, but limiting superior weapons from special seasons.

Obviously, crossbows should be allowed for use in gun season, or ML season, as they are lesser weapons and require more skill to utilize than guns or ML's. They should be excluded from archery season for the same reason.

Crossbow advocates have to prove that it is a lesser or equivalent weapon to the bow to be used in bow season. Precisely why crossbow use is and will continue to be restricted in MI.

:lol: You promote a "lessor" weapons theory with a straight face while using a compound in a season that was originally enacted for long & recurve bows. You seem to have no problem with someone using an in-line with the latest black powder substitute, a scope and sabotted bullets that are good out to 250 yards during muzzleloading, yet you would put forth a "lessor" weapons theory. Wow. Delusional!

Crossbow proponents have proved that they are equivalent to vertical bows and the harvest data from the 9 states that have allowed full inclusion back up that contention. Crossbow opponents have offered not one iota of data from any other state that would support the idea that crossbows are a superior weapon.

Oh, wait, I forgot. This is Michigan and the earth is flat and none of the laws of physics apply here. :rolleyes:

[Thunderhead]

I'd have absoultly no problem with the archery season being stick and string.

The muzzleloading season being flintlocks only.

And the regular November deer season weapon of choice.

[Riva]

I'd have absolutely no problem with the archery season being stick and string.

The muzzle loading season being flintlocks only.

And the regular November deer season weapon of choice.

If I read you correctly, what you are advocating is the year 1975 and prior. Very interesting, IMO.

For indeed, prior to 1975, there were only a fraction of the number of bow hunters in Michigan's woods as there is today. Today, there are about 300,000 as compare to what back then, 50,000???

Prior to 1975, the only archery equipment was of the long bow or recurve bow. Today, we have ultra lightweight, 85% let off, super-trickled out compound bows capable of shooting in excess of 350 fps.

Prior to 1975 we had muzzle loading equipment that was essentially the same technologically speaking as it was used 300 years prior. Today, we have fully rifled , scoped firearms that have morphed into anything but what the first muzzle loading season what designed to provide for.

And, the regular firearm season, being the weapon of choice. Well, not much has changed there. People will use just about anything that is legal.

My dilemma is that with your Utopian concept is that people will howl. And do you know who will howl the loudest?

Some who will howl are those that still utilize the weapons used prior to 1975. And to a degree, that kind of have the right to howl. Hunting with that stuff is more difficult than the post 1975 stuff. And ,to a certain degree, there could be a higher level of gratification by using the prior to 1975 stuff and actually harvesting a deer with it than the post 1975 stuff.

However, the greatest and by far, the loudest howl will come from the archery hunters currently using a modern compound bow! You know, the other 290,00 bowhunters in the woods with you. They will howl because they want to use a bow that is lighter, faster, easier, more efficient that the pre-1975 stuff. Can ya blame em?

They will howl because they want to use a muzzle loading rifle that is lighter, easier to use, more accurate and, can reach out to 200 yards or greater. Again, can ya blame em?

And they will howl because you guys using all the pre-1975 are getting the first dibs on the biggest bucks when the season is warm and the days are longer. Yikes, can ya blame em?

And, this is the same group that howls because some in their ranks want to have a simple choice between using your pre-1975 stuff, the modern compound bow stuff, the morphed muzzle loading stuff and now, a choice to use a crossbow.

Their hypocrisy is maddening

[Thunderhead]

So what's your point ?

BTW, I'd still like to see some pics of those " dozens " of deer you have killed over the years..............

[Riva]

So what's your point ?

BTW, I'd still like to see some pics of those " dozens " of deer you have killed over the years..............

The point is, we are, to a certain degree, in agreement. Those that are bitching the loudest about crossbow expansion are essentially the kettle calling the pot black. It is hypocrisy of the highest order.

And, as far as trading pics, I show you mine, if you show me yours first!:yikes:

[Thunderhead]

Call me stupid I guess...........or I'm not quite awake yet. Late nite.

I still don't understand what your getting at.

All I said is that I wouldn't have a problem with using stick and string only etc........ .

I've never really liked inlines for a " primitave " weapons season either, as I don't see the new fangled guns as primitave. Far from it. Never have, never will.

I'd also lay down my compound in a heartbeat...............and probably will anyway.

As far as the pics..........they are in my gallery. ;)

[Munsterlndr]

I'd have absoultly no problem with the archery season being stick and string.

The muzzleloading season being flintlocks only.

And the regular November deer season weapon of choice.

Fortunately 95% of the other hunters in Michigan would not agree with you. It would be a disaster from a management standpoint. Expansion of participation in all seasons, including special seasons is what is needed, not going the other direction.

[Thunderhead]

Is there anything you haven't got to comment on ? Gezzzzzzzzzzzzz
I happen to like these things and simply stated I wouldn't have a problem with the old ways.

I'm not in the QDM forum..............

[Munsterlndr]

Is there anything you haven't got to comment on ? Gezzzzzzzzzzzzz
I happen to like these things and simply stated I wouldn't have a problem with the old ways.

I'm not in the QDM forum..............

Well since you seem so concerned with management issues that you criticized the "crossbow crowd" for not being more strident advocates for management changes (what were the words... that you found it a little disgusting?) I found it kind of surprising that you would suggest going back to a season structure that would be an absolute disaster from a management standpoint. When you said that you would have "no problem" with those changes, I assumed that you had taken into account the management implications. Guess I was giving you too much credit, huh? :lol:

[Thunderhead]

See what I mean ?

BTW, it was disgusting AND self serving.

I know a guy like you.
No matter whats being discussed, he knows more about it or done it better than anybody, even tho we know he's usually full of it. :rolleyes:

Why don't you just give us all a break from your infinate wisdom huh ?
I'm getting a little sick of your know it all attitude.

I didn't suggest a damn thing. I merely said I wouldn't have a problem with it.


Seems to me I recall a thread where you were against hunting competitions too, complete with a song and dance on your reasons why, yet in your sig were all the names of your teammates for the 08 deer hunting contest.

I never gave you any credit in the first place................:lol:

[swampbuck]

swampghost,

if you are going to throw around facts you should do some research. here is a couple I will help you with....

- this is not the same proposal that has been shot down every year. In fact I believe this is the first time a proposal to remove the handicap restriction has been submitted to those who actually can remove the restriction.

- the nrc/dnr has not been blocking full legalization of crossbows. The use of crossbows by people with disabilities was enacted by the legislature, and as such the disability restriction can only be removed by the legislature.The NRC can modify the restrictions not remove them.

- As far as the dnr/nrc position on full legalization, I will only tell you that you are as wrong as you are on the previous points.

If you are going to take such a strong stance it would seem that you would take the time to get your "facts" right. In fact some of the above info has been posted in previous crossbow threads.

But your baseless argument without presenting ANY FACTS, is actually a big help in our attempt to discredit the anti crossbow crowd. In fact that was alluded to brady in a earlier thread. We appreciate you assistance in our efforts. carry on :lol:

[7MM Magnum]

Allowing the same hunters another weapon in the same seasons under the same regulations is taking another step backwards.

It's akin to robbing Peter to pay Paul.

If antlerless harvests exceeded antlered harvests and the age structure was balanced and MI hunters buck harvests were limited. I would have an entirely different opinion of expanding opportunity to MI's unmotivated hunters.


Swampghost,.. your STILL preachin' the same B.S. :rolleyes: Your attitude seems to always claim that the people who choose to utilize the CrossBOW are "lazy, unmotivated, and unwilling", you preach the same horse-hocky over and over and over like your trying to convince everyone that that's indeed what they are. :16suspect Give it a rest already,.. it's getting to be a real tired read after a few months. :rolleyes: Find yourself some NEW, CURRENT material based on MICHIGAN!! Not Ohio, Indiana, New Jersey, timbucktoo, the Virgin Islands,...

Your like a old comic using the same ol' jokes over, and over, and OVER.

PATHETIC!

Swampbuck,... your 100% on the money regarding these same issues being hashed,.. and rehashed on other various threads concerning CrossBOWS. Swampghost just chooses to ignore them (called selective memory ;)) if he finds something negative from anywhere, no matter how archaic it may be,.. he posts it in hopes to sway others to his point of view. It just goes to show the extremes that the "traditionalist archers" will go to to sway others against ANYTHING dealing with CrossBOWS.

I think it must be part of the membership creed for the MBH. ;) :lol: As a matter of fact,.. it's probably a prerequisite for becoming one!


Oh an BUCK,.. you might want to consider thinking of a new handel,.. yours is TOO close to the ghost. When I first saw your post I said "My GOD,.. the "Swamp" has FINALLY seen the light of day"!


Until I re-read and noticed the BUCK part of the name. :cwm27:

[Swamp Ghost]

:lol: You promote a "lessor" weapons theory with a straight face while using a compound in a season that was originally enacted for long & recurve bows. You seem to have no problem with someone using an in-line with the latest black powder substitute, a scope and sabotted bullets that are good out to 250 yards during muzzleloading, yet you would put forth a "lessor" weapons theory. Wow. Delusional!

Crossbow proponents have proved that they are equivalent to vertical bows and the harvest data from the 9 states that have allowed full inclusion back up that contention. Crossbow opponents have offered not one iota of data from any other state that would support the idea that crossbows are a superior weapon.

Oh, wait, I forgot. This is Michigan and the earth is flat and none of the laws of physics apply here. :rolleyes:

Harvest/success rates don't cut it, sorry. IF it did ML's would be included in bowseason or I could post VA's (the only state that sells a crossbow-hunting license) crossbow success rate which is higher than vertical bows.

If crossbows were equivalent we wouldn't not be having this conversation. 41 states believe they are superior.

I encourage you to research "lessor weapon" theory.

[Swamp Ghost]

Find yourself some NEW, CURRENT material based on MICHIGAN!! Not Ohio, Indiana, New Jersey, timbucktoo, the Virgin Islands,...

Your like a old comic using the same ol' jokes over, and over, and OVER.

PATHETIC!


LOL! Hypocritical? I suggest you and the rest of your spin-guru's follow your advice.

I never said able-bodied hunters whining about wanting to use a crossbow are lazy. Unwilling to use a bow to participate in bowseason? Yes. Unmotivated to pick up a bow and participate like the rest of MI's bowhunters in MI's bowseason? Absolutely.

[Swamp Ghost]

swampghost,



But your baseless argument without presenting ANY FACTS, is actually a big help in our attempt to discredit the anti crossbow crowd.


Discredit the anti-crossbow crowd? I would say you need to work on legitimizing an illegitimate weapon. Oh, that's right you can't.

[7MM Magnum]

LOL! Hypocritical? I suggest you and the rest of your spin-guru's follow your advice.

I never said able-bodied hunters whining about wanting to use a crossbow are lazy. Unwilling to use a bow to participate in bowseason? Yes. Unmotivated to pick up a bow and participate like the rest of MI's bowhunters in MI's bowseason? Absolutely.

BOY,.. talk about a selective memory! :rolleyes:

You'd better go back through all of your old posts,.. Alzheimer's is setting in. :lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

BOY,.. talk about a selective memory! :rolleyes:

You'd better go back through all of your old posts,.. Alzheimer's is setting in. :lol:


I think someone has an interpretive memory.

But if the shoe fits....:evil: , wear that bad boy :lol:

[Liv4Huntin']

Allowing the same hunters another weapon in the same seasons under the same regulations is taking another step backwards.

WOW...... if that's not trying to 'restrict' hunters' opportunities in Michigan, I don't know how much clearer you could have made your position, swamp.

~ m ~

[Swamp Ghost]

WOW...... if that's not trying to 'restrict' hunters' opportunities in Michigan, I don't know how much clearer you could have made your position, swamp.

~ m ~

Weapon choice is now interchangeable with opportunity? If you say so.

Oh! That's right, you can choose to use a crossbow in MI. Just like a hunter can choose not to participate in any of MI's hunting seasons.

[Liv4Huntin']

Kids who are interested in hunting who are not physically capable of pulling a bow aren't what I consider "able-bodied".

Gee. . . what 'group' will you not try to keep out of archery season. Now KIDS? If I was a very small 'youth' wanting to use a crossbow and hunt for the first time and you said that to my face...... well, let's just say your comments would strike to the core! Shame...
~ m ~

[PsEbUcKmAsTeR17]

Well Ill be writing today or tomorrow to show my full support. I hope anybody that calls their selves hunters will do the same. Simply for the fact that we should stand together.

-Psebuckmaster17-

[Swamp Ghost]

Gee. . . what 'group' will you not try to keep out of archery season. Now KIDS? If I was a very small 'youth' wanting to use a crossbow and hunt for the first time and you said that to my face...... well, let's just say your comments would strike to the core! Shame...
~ m ~

Sorry you are wrong. Youth hunters are a separate category and topic.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

Sorry you are wrong. Youth hunters are a separate category and topic.

how do you find time to drink all that kool aid swampy? i mean all you do is spin, spin and more spin, :dizzy:you must have an endless supply of dramamine. same topic swamyspin, kids count too when it comes to choice, sorry your such a bad loser. all the spin in the world won't help you convince one single person who cares or matters on this crossbow issue. you may wish to run for office in the MBH spin factor thou, odds are you'll win with that endless supply of spin you have HANDS DOWN.:lol: whens the next election? i'll vote for you:lol: