Facts about crossbows

[sputty]

http://crossbowhunting.net/phpads/adlog.php?bannerid=9&clientid=18&zoneid=0&source=&block=0&capping=0&cb=691d9af0154bc74e960e452eda2f6ed8


As hunters who pay hunting license fees and game managers whose programs come from those licenses, we are blessed by the ability of the whitetail deer to adjust to the continued encroachment on its habitat by man and still multiply. If it I were not for the far sighted sportsmen who preceded us and insisted upon scientific management practices, most modern deer hunting today would be very costly and conducted on preserves, behind high-fences.

However, this magnificent animal’s ability to multiply, coupled with conservative management practices, have resulted in whitetail populations at an all-time high. In some areas deer populations are so high that property damage as well as safety and health concerns have arisen. The game manager’s job today is rapidly becoming more sociological than biological. Heaped in the middle comes the issue of creating a new opportunity with a new and misunderstood hunting tool – the crossbow.

MYTH: Crossbows are a poacher’s tool.

FACT: Crossbows, like vertical bows, have short range capabilities, are too cumbersome to discharge from a vehicle, and kill by hemorrhage, not shock. Where legal, violations are minimal. If crossbows were efficient poaching tools their use would be wide-spread by game thieves. The poachers weapon of choice is still the .22 caliber rifle.

MYTH: Crossbows are unsafe.

FACT: Based on thirty years of statistical data, accident rates involving crossbows are identical to those of vertical bows. Both, considering hunting hours involved and numbers of hunters, are considered among the safest forms of hunting.

MYTH: Crossbows are too easy to shoot.

FACT: Experienced rifle shooters can expect to quickly achieve tight arrow groups on targets up to forty yards (the effective hunting range of a crossbow). Is that bad? Isn’t accurate shot placement the goal of all ethical hunting? Does the difficulty of shooting a bow accurately deter people from participating in bowhunting? However, to be successful, a crossbow hunter must master all skills and tactics common to bowhunting.

MYTH: Crossbow hunting will squeeze other hunters out.

FACT: In states where lengthy crossbow seasons, crossbow hunting is popular. However, no other season or bag limit has ever been reduced as a result of crossbow hunting being permitted. Where permitted, the crossbow does not discriminate in favor of the physically strong. It enables a wider range of sportsmen (women, professionals, youth, and older hunters) to enjoy the challenges of bowhunting.

MYTH: Crossbow hunting will wipe out the deer herd

FACT: In states with generous crossbow seasons, the success rate of crossbow hunters and vertical bow hunters are virtually the same and the deer populations continue to flourish.

MYTH: A crossbow is much more efficient than a vertical bow.

FACT: A modern 150# draw weight compound crossbow delivers the same speed and stored energy as a 65-70 pound compound vertical bow. The crossbow requires twice the amount of draw weight because the power stroke (draw length) is half as long as that of the compound bow. If both types of bows launch the same weight arrow at the same speed, how can a crossbow be more efficient and does the deer really care?

MYTH: The crossbow controversy creates division amongst sportsmen, and the public image of crossbows makes proposed hunting with them counter to the sportsmen’s interests.

FACT: Where permitted, crossbow hunting creates NO controversy except that created by a few individuals who deem themselves and their chosen method of hunting as superior to all others. The public image of crossbows stems from the lack of knowledge of a crossbow’s limited capabilities, as well as the myths touted by those who oppose their use. The TRUE controversy and tragedy of the crossbow issue stems from the time, effort and money spent by so called conservation-minded bowhunting organizations to deny others the opportunity to hunt rather than promoting the virtues of bowhunting to the public.

MYTH: There is an independent study which dramatically shows the superior capability of the crossbow (and its development) over the vertical bow.

FACT: This study is about as independent as a study on the need for sport hunting by P.E.T.A.. The study was commissioned by the Anti-Crossbow Committee of a national bowhunting group. Its author is a member of that group. Much of the hypothetical development of hunting crossbows and the limiting physical factors which prevent such development in vertical bows within the study have already been proven erroneous. It is the purpose of the game regulations by the state to control what advances in technology are suitable for sporting use. No state permits the use of machine guns and handheld rockets during deer rifle season!

MYTH: Because it is not hand-drawn and released, the crossbow is more closely compared to a firearm than a vertical bow.

FACT: Opponents to the crossbow often quote an apples and oranges comparison when voicing this smokescreen. The vertical archer, if they are a sportsman/bowhunter, prior to ever going into the field hunting spends hours and hours working on the physical conditioning required by drawing, aiming and shooting their chosen tool – nothing mystical, just physical work. Once the season starts, the act of drawing, aiming and shooting (especially with high let-off compounds utilizing a triggered release aid) is no more difficult for a vertical bowhunter than a crossbow hunter. Movement is required by both (one to draw back the other to raise the crossbow into a shooting position) to obtain the target at an average of less than twenty yards. Both hunters must be accomplished woodsmen to get that close to a whitetail and still mask those necessary movements.

MYTH: Nobody wants crossbow hunting except the crossbow manufacturers.

FACT: In Ohio, crossbow hunting has been permitted for thirty years and the Ohio Division of Wildlife endorses crossbow hunting and the opportunity it creates enthusiastically. Currently there are more hunters participating in the archery season using a crossbow that are using a hand-held bow. These licensed, legal, law-abiding sportsmen in Ohio are commonly the target of slanderous, erroneous and often untruthful attacks from bowhunting groups opposed to crossbow hunting. Many Ohio crossbow hunters also enjoy shooting with vertical archery tackle.

MYTH: Just because crossbow hunting has been a success story in many states like Ohio, Arkansas and Wyoming we don’t want it in ours. All the bowhunters of “our” state and all of “our” enforcement officers are opposed to it.

FACT: The crossbow is a challenging but effective short-range, single-shot hunting tool which offers additional hunting opportunity and recruitment to hunting ranks. If such an option in not considered advantageous by the sportsmen and game management agencies within the state, then the huntable wildlife resources of that state are not being managed to maximize opportunity for MOST citizens. The sportsmen’s cause and the future of hunting in that state are therefore at risk. Recruitment to hunting ranks should be the goal of ALL game managers and sportsmen. As long as the hunting tool falls within logical parameters of safe, capable and humane harvest capabilities, such recruitment should not be based upon, “do it my way or you can’t do it at all.” How can any organization which represents such a small percentile of the total number of archery tag purchasers in a state be so presumptuous to speak for all bowhunters and deny others? Does not their small total membership compared to the large number of archery hunters suggest perhaps they do not represent the views of the majority?

FACT: It is a fact confirmed by agency statistical data in crossbow hunting states that there are vastly more hunters (or potential hunters) who choose or would choose to hunt with a crossbow than those who oppose them.

FACT: Crossbow hunting is documented as safe, responsible and popular where permitted, and has no ill effect on wildlife resources or any other group of sportsmen – other than self-perceived. Ohio ranks the crossbow as a major recruitment tool for women, youth and professionals. The crossbow hunting opportunity does not create division amongst sportsmen – quite the opposite, it gives the firearms hunter a hands-on perspective of the challenges of archery hunting. The REAL concerns surrounding the crossbow hunting opportunity is the concept that there’s no room for recruitment to hunting ranks unless the tool used is one based upon the emotional, purism standards of a few. Wildlife resources should be managed for the most opportunity for most citizens/sportsmen, not for a select few. Facts, not emotion, document the crossbow hunting opportunity as positive for sportsmen and game management programs everywhere it is available for use.


Last Updated ( Wednesday, 22 November 2006 )

[swampstand]

Yeah, I say nay to crossbows regardless of the "Facts".

I'm paranoid, and yes, that's my problem.

NO to crossbows.

[skipper34]

Yeah, I say nay to crossbows regardless of the "Facts".

I'm paranoid, and yes, that's my problem.

NO to crossbows.

And you have every right to be opposed. Isn't freedom of choice wonderful?

[bigsablemike]

half those facts sound like they were from a report commissioned by a pro crossbow committee and authored by a member of that committee.:lol:

a crossbow is easier to learn to shoot.your not gonna tell me the movement needed to raise and fire a crossbow is the same as a regular bow.more like a gun.why do 2 thirds of ohio "archers" use it,if not for ease of use? it is not a POACHER weapon.i doubt that anything bad will happen to the deer herd if crossbows are made legal.but i have to question why you would want to increase the numbers of hunters with those who are to lazy to learn how to shoot a real bow?i see it as a shortcut,the disabled not included.overall id rather see the disability standards lowered and just leave it at that.but it really wont matter,except for more lazy slob hunters in the woods.

[skipper34]

I know, I know, another comparison post to Ohio. But I wonder how the hunters is Ohio who are opposed to crossbow use feel about it? Is the woods down there inundated with "lazy slob hunters" who just happen to hunt with crossbows? If it were such a problem down there, why is it that so many of our deer hunters want to go there to hunt? I am not being contradictory, I would really like to know. Mike has a good point as far as some individuals taking the easy way and thinking that crossbows are an end-all to trying to master the skills neccessary with conventional bows. I would think that after 35 years of legal crossbow use in Ohio that there would not be this problem, I may be wrong. Interested in knowing from anyone who has hunted there.

[bigsablemike]

I know, I know, another comparison post to Ohio. But I wonder how the hunters is Ohio who are opposed to crossbow use feel about it? Is the woods down there inundated with "lazy slob hunters" who just happen to hunt with crossbows? If it were such a problem down there, why is it that so many of our deer hunters want to go there to hunt? I am not being contradictory, I would really like to know. Mike has a good point as far as some individuals taking the easy way and thinking that crossbows are an end-all to trying to master the skills neccessary with conventional bows. I would think that after 35 years of legal crossbow use in Ohio that there would not be this problem, I may be wrong. Interested in knowing from anyone who has hunted there.

i guess i was a little overboard on the slob thing.my point was that if the reason you dont hunt is because its to hard to shoot a regular bow.do ya really want to increase our ranks with those people?its not that hard at all.in 3 months of 3-4 times a week practice almost anyone(given proper equipment)should be able to kill with a bow.why does everyone want to increase the number of hunters anyhow?we got enough.people want to hunt ohio because theres a better chance of scoring a big boy.less hunters,obr,season structure.crossbows have nothing to do with it.we could leagalize them here and wed still have crappy hunting.until we change our season structure(gun)and adopt a obr were doomed no matter what you allow for hunting.

[tjstebb]

but i have to question why you would want to increase the numbers of hunters with those who are to lazy to learn how to shoot a real bow?i see it as a shortcut,the disabled not included.overall id rather see the disability standards lowered and just leave it at that.but it really wont matter,except for more lazy slob hunters in the woods.
ya know i can't seem to figure out how so many people that call themselves sportsman can even consider calling someone lazy or a lazy slob hunter when they know nothing about that person!
i myself have yet to chime in on any of these xbow threads but i have to tell ya i think it is foolish to call someone lazy just because YOU don't like it...i have been bowhunting for 15 years and love my time in the woods and my stand and i would never give up my bow for a xbow....but that is my CHOICE! and if someone else that enjoys the woods and hunting wants to shoot a xbow during bow season that is there CHOICE!and i would except him or her as a fellow hunter not a LAZY bow hunter!that label is just obsured! this mentality will do more harm to the sport we love than any mis-management will ever do!
just my .02
tjstebb

[Munsterlndr]

i guess i was a little overboard on the slob thing.my point was that if the reason you dont hunt is because its to hard to shoot a regular bow.do ya really want to increase our ranks with those people?its not that hard at all.in 3 months of 3-4 times a week practice almost anyone(given proper equipment)should be able to kill with a bow.why does everyone want to increase the number of hunters anyhow?we got enough.people want to hunt ohio because theres a better chance of scoring a big boy.less hunters,obr,season structure.crossbows have nothing to do with it.we could leagalize them here and wed still have crappy hunting.until we change our season structure(gun)and adopt a obr were doomed no matter what you allow for hunting.

Mike, you are making the flawed assumption that many of the guys who may choose to hunt with crossbows don't currently hunt with a compound. I would venture to guess that if crossbows are expanded in Michigan, that an awful lot of guys who decide to try them are currently bow hunters.

Are they the shoot 24/7, 52 weeks a year, hard core, league archers? Nope.

Are they the gear heads that spend hours tuning their bows, tweaking every last bit of gear and trying squeeze another 10 FPS out of their rig? Nope.

Do they practice as much as they should before they head out to the woods? Nope.

Do they end up missing or wounding and not recovering a whole bunch of deer every year? Yep.

They are in it to enjoy the outdoors and hunt deer. The weapon they are holding in their hand is not all that important to them, they just enjoy the recreational opportunity and want to maybe get a chance to put some venison in the freezer.

This does not make them "slob" hunters, though. They may have the best of intentions and for whatever reason, whether it's lack of practice, nerves, buck fever, being cramped from sitting out in the cold for 3 hours, or whatever, unfortunately an awful lot of deer get stuck every year and go unrecovered. Some of them survive but a whole bunch end up as coyote food.

If crossbows can reduce the wounding rate a little bit and allow a few more of those deer to be recovered, what is wrong with that?

Whether or not you allow crossbows, those guys are still going to be out in the woods. Whether they kill the deer with a compound or a crossbow does not matter much to the deer but if the hunter has a little more confidence in a crossbow, he may make a better shot and not be so likely to wound the deer.

As to your question of why we would want more hunters, it's pretty simple. We have lost 71,000 bow hunters and 150,000 firearms deer hunters in Michigan in the last decade. That translates to $10,000,000 dollars a year in lost revenue to the DNR. That means they provide less services, less CO's, less public land, less of everything. That is not a good thing.

As hunter numbers dwindle, we lose political power and the ability to influence the legislature and keep them from legislating changes to the law that could negatively impact our sport. Look to the dove hunting debacle if you want an example of how strength in numbers would have been a good thing.

And finally, in case you have not noticed, there is a chronic overpopulation problem in the SLP and archers are doing a poor job in helping to reduce the number of deer there. If hunters don't take the initiative soon and make a concerted effort to reduce herd numbers, non-hunting interests are going to take the job out of our hands and one of the primary justifications for recreational hunting will disappear.

We should be doing everything we can to recruit more hunters to the woods and bolster our dwindling ranks. Any policy that works to decrease recreational opportunity and limit hunter numbers is short sighted to say the least.

[sputty]

half those facts sound like they were from a report commissioned by a pro crossbow committee and authored by a member of that committee.:lol:

a crossbow is easier to learn to shoot.your not gonna tell me the movement needed to raise and fire a crossbow is the same as a regular bow.more like a gun.why do 2 thirds of ohio "archers" use it,if not for ease of use? it is not a POACHER weapon.i doubt that anything bad will happen to the deer herd if crossbows are made legal.but i have to question why you would want to increase the numbers of hunters with those who are to lazy to learn how to shoot a real bow?i see it as a shortcut,the disabled not included.overall id rather see the disability standards lowered and just leave it at that.but it really wont matter,except for more lazy slob hunters in the woods.
Wow, just because hunters choose to hunt with a crossbow, they are slobs and lazy? (except for the disabled ) Are gun hunters that go out 2 times a year considered slobs and lazy to you? Believe this, there are slobs in every form of hunting and fishing. Once a slob always a slob. But you should be careful about labeling people that you dont even know.:( You are talking about fellow hunters.

[tjstebb]

i guess my take on this is that i would rather see more hunters in the woods that are confident in the equipment and accurate with their equipment and less animals wasted or wounded and left for yote food! and if crossbows will help (which i believe they would) then i say CROSSBOWS for everyone!
tjstebb

[michigandeerslayer]

I know one fact..Some crossbow's are exspensive. I just seen one for $2,400:yikes::yikes:

[bigsablemike]

Mike, you are making the flawed assumption that many of the guys who may choose to hunt with crossbows don't currently hunt with a compound. I would venture to guess that if crossbows are expanded in Michigan, that an awful lot of guys who decide to try them are currently bow hunters.

Are they the shoot 24/7, 52 weeks a year, hard core, league archers? Nope.

Are they the gear heads that spend hours tuning their bows, tweaking every last bit of gear and trying squeeze another 10 FPS out of their rig? Nope.

Do they practice as much as they should before they head out to the woods? Nope.

Do they end up missing or wounding and not recovering a whole bunch of deer every year? Yep.

They are in it to enjoy the outdoors and hunt deer. The weapon they are holding in their hand is not all that important to them, they just enjoy the recreational opportunity and want to maybe get a chance to put some venison in the freezer.

This does not make them "slob" hunters, though. They may have the best of intentions and for whatever reason, whether it's lack of practice, nerves, buck fever, being cramped from sitting out in the cold for 3 hours, or whatever, unfortunately an awful lot of deer get stuck every year and go unrecovered. Some of them survive but a whole bunch end up as coyote food.

If crossbows can reduce the wounding rate a little bit and allow a few more of those deer to be recovered, what is wrong with that?

Whether or not you allow crossbows, those guys are still going to be out in the woods. Whether they kill the deer with a compound or a crossbow does not matter much to the deer but if the hunter has a little more confidence in a crossbow, he may make a better shot and not be so likely to wound the deer.

As to your question of why we would want more hunters, it's pretty simple. We have lost 71,000 bow hunters and 150,000 firearms deer hunters in Michigan in the last decade. That translates to $10,000,000 dollars a year in lost revenue to the DNR. That means they provide less services, less CO's, less public land, less of everything. That is not a good thing.

As hunter numbers dwindle, we lose political power and the ability to influence the legislature and keep them from legislating changes to the law that could negatively impact our sport. Look to the dove hunting debacle if you want an example of how strength in numbers would have been a good thing.

And finally, in case you have not noticed, there is a chronic overpopulation problem in the SLP and archers are doing a poor job in helping to reduce the number of deer there. If hunters don't take the initiative soon and make a concerted effort to reduce herd numbers, non-hunting interests are going to take the job out of our hands and one of the primary justifications for recreational hunting will disappear.

We should be doing everything we can to recruit more hunters to the woods and bolster our dwindling ranks. Any policy that works to decrease recreational opportunity and limit hunter numbers is short sighted to say the least.

as i said i probaly went overboard with the slob label.
i understand those guys completly.their called gun hunters:lol:

most of the talk about pro crossbow has to do with increasing hunter numbers.so your, most of em would be regular bowhunters doesnt wash.what youll end up with is a bunch of gun hunters picking up the crossbow.cause its easier.

political clout i can see.the money.ill pay double what i do now for fishing and hunting.

i hunt waterloo.while there are deer there it is not by any reckoning overpoulated.maybe with hunters.private land i dont know.im not one of the priviledged,private land hunters.

i do not see how no crossbows limits archery hunting .

like i said i could careless it will have no effect on the herd.

[bigsablemike]

ya know i can't seem to figure out how so many people that call themselves sportsman can even consider calling someone lazy or a lazy slob hunter when they know nothing about that person!
i myself have yet to chime in on any of these xbow threads but i have to tell ya i think it is foolish to call someone lazy just because YOU don't like it...i have been bowhunting for 15 years and love my time in the woods and my stand and i would never give up my bow for a xbow....but that is my CHOICE! and if someone else that enjoys the woods and hunting wants to shoot a xbow during bow season that is there CHOICE!and i would except him or her as a fellow hunter not a LAZY bow hunter!that label is just obsured! this mentality will do more harm to the sport we love than any mis-management will ever do!
just my .02
tjstebb

read my post i never said i dont like it.i said i dont really care.basically the people who will start "archery hunting"with a crossbow will be the same lazy hunters that walk 200 yards from the road and tell everyone it was a mile,at the same time they think they might get lost.:lol::lol::lol:

[bigsablemike]

Wow, just because hunters choose to hunt with a crossbow, they are slobs and lazy? (except for the disabled ) Are gun hunters that go out 2 times a year considered slobs and lazy to you? Believe this, there are slobs in every form of hunting and fishing. Once a slob always a slob. But you should be careful about labeling people that you dont even know.:( You are talking about fellow hunters.

those people tend to be the ones im talkin about.theyll be the same ones that take advantage of this expanded"archery"opportunity.as i said i dont care either way.those people will only be 200 yards from the road.:lol::lol:

[bigsablemike]

i guess my take on this is that i would rather see more hunters in the woods that are confident in the equipment and accurate with their equipment and less animals wasted or wounded and left for yote food! and if crossbows will help (which i believe they would) then i say CROSSBOWS for everyone!
tjstebb

so you believe that those who cannot kill with a regular bow,will be able to kill with a crossbow?why?if they wont become proficient with a reg bow why would they with a crossbow?is it easier?:lol:

[Ack]

I know, I know, another comparison post to Ohio. But I wonder how the hunters is Ohio who are opposed to crossbow use feel about it? Is the woods down there inundated with "lazy slob hunters" who just happen to hunt with crossbows? If it were such a problem down there, why is it that so many of our deer hunters want to go there to hunt? I am not being contradictory, I would really like to know. Mike has a good point as far as some individuals taking the easy way and thinking that crossbows are an end-all to trying to master the skills neccessary with conventional bows. I would think that after 35 years of legal crossbow use in Ohio that there would not be this problem, I may be wrong. Interested in knowing from anyone who has hunted there.

I have not hunted Ohio, but I could pretty much guarantee that people don't go there JUST to hunt with their crossbows. It's pretty much common knowledge nowadays that Ohio has many more mature deer than Michigan...I would say that is most likely what is drawing our hunters there, NOT just being able to use their crossbows.

[Liv4Huntin']

Crossbow:
Combound Bow:

Both have:
Limbs, (some have 'wheels'), cables/strings, propel an arrow ( bolt - shorter arrow) tipped with broadhead, 'ethical shooting range' of 40 yards or under, in short,

Both are bows and should BOTH be available for use during Michigan's archery season by anyone who chooses to use one -- or both. :)
The answer is simple.
~ m ~

[jeffthedj]

Crossbow:
Combound Bow:

Both have:
Limbs, (some have 'wheels'), cables/strings, propel an arrow ( bolt - shorter arrow) tipped with broadhead, 'ethical shooting range' of 40 yards or under, in short,

Both are bows and should BOTH be available for use during Michigan's archery season by anyone who chooses to use one -- or both. :)
The answer is simple.
~ m ~


HIT IT RIGHT ON THE HEAD! I WOULD USE MY BOW... BUT I THINK IT WOULD ALSO HELP OUT WITH GETTING THE YOUTH INVOLVED! BOTH MY SONS ARE 10-12 AND BOTH PULL 35#S BUT IT TOOK THEM A WHILE..AT 10 WHEN MY DAUGHTER WANTS TO HUNT A CROSSBOW WOULD BE PERFECT!

[Whit1]

i?we got enough.people want to hunt ohio because theres a better chance of scoring a big boy.less hunters,obr,season structure.crossbows have nothing to do with it.we could leagalize them here and wed still have crappy hunting.until we change our season structure(gun)and adopt a obr were doomed no matter what you allow for hunting.


Mike Tonkovich a key big game specialist in Ohio's DNR would beg to differ with you on you assessment as to how "crossbows have nothing to do with it." Below is a copy/paste of part of an email that I received from him regarding the impact crossbow inclusion has had in Ohio.

"Make no mistake though, the crossbow will undoubtedly capture the hearts of many – many like myself and many of my coworkers here in Athens who have opted to hunt with the crossbow so that we can remain BOW hunters. When time permits, I will likely pick up my compound again, but until then I will enjoy the hunting experience that the crossbow affords. But that is beside the point. The point is this. This fall, 7 of 10 licensed deer hunters here in Ohio will head to the woods with a bow. Slightly more than half will carry a crossbow, a small percentage will carry both at least once during the season. Without question, the popularity of bowhunting has exploded here in Ohio and I couldn’t be happier. Just a decade ago, the archery harvest was really insignificant in the big management picture. Today, our bowhunters are a very valuable deer management tool. And there is no doubt in my mind that we wouldn’t be enjoying the management successes we are today without the crossbow...."

Michael J. Tonkovich, Ph.D.
Wildlife Research Biologist
ODNR, Division of Wildlife
360 E. State St.
Athens, OH 45701
v(740)589.9922 f(740)589.9925
mike.tonkovich@dnr.state.oh.us

[specificgravity]

Crossbow:
Combound Bow:

Both have:
Limbs, (some have 'wheels'), cables/strings, propel an arrow ( bolt - shorter arrow) tipped with broadhead, 'ethical shooting range' of 40 yards or under, in short,

Both are bows and should BOTH be available for use during Michigan's archery season by anyone who chooses to use one -- or both. :)
The answer is simple.
~ m ~

Oh, I whole heartedly agree that they possess some of the same technology but the fundamentals of the weapon IMO are quite different. In my crazy mind this makes them different weapons. Judging from the current seasons it seems as though different weapons have separate seasons so the answer is simple, separate season.

[oziedon]

i guess my take on this is that i would rather see more hunters in the woods that are confident in the equipment and accurate with their equipment and less animals wasted or wounded and left for yote food! and if crossbows will help (which i believe they would) then i say CROSSBOWS for everyone!
tjstebb
Exactly

[costanza]

While I would not consider myself a 'slob' hunter, I am often pressed for time to practice my archery and gun shooting skills. Perhaps I am simply lazy. I consider myself an average shot with a regular bow and limit my shots to no more than 15 yards, usually 10 yards. I have shot crossbows and find that I can shoot well without as much practice(compared to a compound bow or rifle). In my opinion(note the word 'opinion'), a crossbow is more like a rifle than a bow in the amount of practice needed to be reasonably accurate. The mechanics of drawing, holding, sighting, and shooting of a bow are not easy to master. If crossbows were permitted during the archery season, I'd likely buy one to use in place of my compound bow, simply because I would not have to practice as much to be effective. Quality bow and arrow archers deserve respect for the dedication and practice time they put in.

[marty]

I hunt with a xbow and if people think just becuse you get a crossbow deer are going to start dropping like files you're just plain crazy:D

If these so called slob gun hunters:yikes: do buy a xbow you still have to use some deer hunting skills to get near enough for a shot anyway

a crossbow doesn't make it any easier. Try lugging my fully loaded ten point around all day:evil:

[sbooy42]

Holy crap...
Been a while since I have stop in this sub forum...
Guess somethings never change..4 threads about crossbows and people more worried about other states and their regulations...
Actually I think it was got worse:(
Oh well... guess I'll stick to the archery forum...

Since I'm here... my.02
Xbows belong in the same season as other horizontally held weapons with stocks..

[sbooy42]

I hunt with a xbow and if people think just becuse you get a crossbow deer are going to start dropping like files you're just plain crazy:D

If these so called slob gun hunters:yikes: do buy a xbow you still have to use some deer hunting skills to get near enough for a shot anyway

a crossbow doesn't make it any easier. Try lugging my fully loaded ten point around all day:evil:

Or you could get a Horton

I have had both shoot side by side also and the ten point even with silencers is more nosier that the horton hands down. Also the horton is lighter in weight. My ten point is so heavy I have to use shooting sticks to shoot it

Or get shooting sticks for the Ten Point;)
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217954&highlight=crossbow

[Swamp Ghost]

Mike Tonkovich a key big game specialist in Ohio's DNR would beg to differ with you on you assessment as to how "crossbows have nothing to do with it." Below is a copy/paste of part of an email that I received from him regarding the impact crossbow inclusion has had in Ohio.

"Make no mistake though, the crossbow will undoubtedly capture the hearts of many – many like myself and many of my coworkers here in Athens who have opted to hunt with the crossbow so that we can remain BOW hunters. When time permits, I will likely pick up my compound again, but until then I will enjoy the hunting experience that the crossbow affords. But that is beside the point. The point is this. This fall, 7 of 10 licensed deer hunters here in Ohio will head to the woods with a bow. Slightly more than half will carry a crossbow, a small percentage will carry both at least once during the season. Without question, the popularity of bowhunting has exploded here in Ohio and I couldn’t be happier. Just a decade ago, the archery harvest was really insignificant in the big management picture. Today, our bowhunters are a very valuable deer management tool. And there is no doubt in my mind that we wouldn’t be enjoying the management successes we are today without the crossbow...."

Michael J. Tonkovich, Ph.D.
Wildlife Research Biologist
ODNR, Division of Wildlife
360 E. State St.
Athens, OH 45701
v(740)589.9922 f(740)589.9925
mike.tonkovich@dnr.state.oh.us

This guy is a good deer manager but isn't a very good mathematician.

I will now demonstrate using data from ESPN Outdoors provided by Mike Tonkovich:

Season forecast: Ohio Division of Wildlife deer biologist Mike Tonkovich reports …….

Number of licensed deer hunters: 350,000 (Note: Tonkovich indicates that landowners are not required to purchase a hunting license or deer permit in Ohio. In most years, he feels that the state has somewhere in the neighborhood of 125,000 landowners hunting deer. Therefore, landowners are included in the hunter number estimates that Tonkovich has provided below.)

Deer hunter success rates: 32 percent.
Number of bowhunters: Approximately 250,000.
Bowhunter success rates: 16 percent.
Number of muzzleloader hunters: 200,000.
Muzzleloader success rates: 11 percent.
Number of firearm hunters: 400,000.
Firearm success rates: 28 percent.
2004 harvest: 216,443 deer.
Bow harvest: 60,626 deer.
Muzzleloader harvest: 24,765 deer.
Firearm harvest: 123,041 deer.

OK – given that the entire data set is based on what Tonkovich “feels” is true let’s see what we get, here.

250,000 “bowhunters “ (they really mean bowhunters + crossbowhunters) with a success rate of 16% = 40,000 “archery” kills.

Tonkovich had reported 60626 as the “bow” harvest. Hmmmmm – that would actually be a 25% harvest rate.

OK, your EXPERT is wrong someplace. Either there are way more “archers” than he thinks there are, or he has screwed up the harvest rate calculation.

Since he has stated “In 1989, the crossbow harvest exceeded the vertical bow harvest for the first time and today accounts for nearly 60% of the total archery harvest” and we assume what he does, that the success rate is identical for crossbows and bows, we can calculate the number of crossbowers and bowhunters from the data he gave to ESPN above:

60% of 250000 = 150000 crossbowers
40% of 250000 = 100000 bowhunters

He stated in "Bow Hunting: An Important Deer Management Tool
By Michael J. Tonkovich"and in other letters like it, that there were 129000 xbow guys, but using his numbers here its way more, like 150000. Wait … he did say that the first was only licensed adult hunters, and this number includes what he “feels” is everyone. OK let’s use this number.

Even using the higher numbers, you notice that the vertical bow hunter is actually smaller than what he told you. GASP – less bowhunters! He had said 108,000, this is 100,000.

Without question, the popularity of bowhunting has exploded here in Ohio

Kinda depends on your definition of bowhunting now, doesn’t it?

Assuming he means bows plus crossbows, he’s correct – except all the growth is due to crossbows – and that’s good for bowhunting, how?????

Meanwhile, bowhunters went from 35% of licensed hunters in the early 80’s to 36% last year. No growth, percentage wise.

In the early 1980s, an estimated 35% of licensed deer hunters hunted with a vertical bow. If we apply this to our 1978 hunter number estimate (see chart above), we had roughly 64,000 (0.35x184,000) vertical bow archers in the early 1980s.


OK – if bows were 35% then 35% of all hunters = 64,000 (64.4K, actually), crossbows were 5% of all hunters in the early 80's so then 5% of all hunters = 9200 crossbowers.

Based on a study conducted March of 2005, an estimated 36% of approximately 300,000 licensed deer hunters or roughly 110,000 archers hunted with a vertical bow at least once from 2001-2004.

(108K bowhunters, actually…..he’s rounding here and there) – now we use Tonkovich's estimation of crossbow hunters last year, 43%. 43% of all hunters = 129000 crossbowers.

Interesting numbers that we will need to return to.

In the meantime let’s examine the GROWTH in greater detail.

Bowhunters have grown from 64000 to 108000 – that is an increase of 1.7X, in other words they have almost, but not quite doubled in the last 20 years.

Crossbow hunters, in the same timeframe, have gone from 9200 to 129000 – and THAT is an increase of 14X.

These are all folks who COULD be hunting with bows, but do not because of crossbows. They have not converted to real bow as evidenced by the large disparity in the crossbow vs bow numbers and the fact that bow usage remains the same percentage as it was 20 years ago in Ohio.

This guy is a master of spin.

bigsablemike is correct "crossbows have nothing to do with it"


More math anyone?

Please be sure and note that all of my deer hunter number figures apply exclusively to regular licensed adults. They do not include youth, seniors, or landowners.~Mike Tonkovich

The very groups that crossbow advocates proclaim will be included by adding the crossbow to archery season have been excluded from the numbers.

Youths probably use crossbows (after all, you all say that is what they are good for.) Seniors probably use crossbows (after all, you all say that is what they are good for.)

43% of all hunters = 129000 crossbowers.

That means the 43% of license holders is actually even higher.

What is the right number – we don’t know, now do we. HE did not include the data, although he is honest enough to note that he didn’t. When you add in landowners, who are not required to even purchase a license, he REALLY doesn’t know.

"Without question, the popularity of crossbowhunting has exploded here in Ohio" is a much more accurate statement.

[Swamp Ghost]

BUT I THINK IT WOULD ALSO HELP OUT WITH GETTING THE YOUTH INVOLVED! BOTH MY SONS ARE 10-12 AND BOTH PULL 35#S BUT IT TOOK THEM A WHILE..AT 10 WHEN MY DAUGHTER WANTS TO HUNT A CROSSBOW WOULD BE PERFECT!

Youth get involved in hunting because of mentoring, not which weapon they use.

[costanza]

Hey Marty:
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I find it easier to shoot reasonably well with a crossbow than with a compound bow. I am strictly speaking of taking the shot itself. I wouldn't expect to have an easier deer harvest with a crossbow. Getting the deer close, within crossbow or bow range is still difficult. I just would be more confident in my shooting skills with a crossbow rather than a bow. I have to limit my bow range to around 10 yards or so because I am not that confident in my arrow accuracy beyond that range. I certainly don't want to wound a deer. I have not hunted with a crossbow, but I feel, with my limited time to practice, I would have a better chance than I do with a bow. I would think I could be accurate to 20 yards or more with a crossbow. All I'm saying is that the mechanics involved in drawing, sighting and shooting an arrow accurately are more involved than sighting and shooting a crossbow bolt.

[jeffthedj]

Youth get involved in hunting because of mentoring, not which weapon they use.

No kidding!!

My kids have been in the woods since they cant remember:dizzy:

what i was trying to say was my daughter might not be able to pull a enough bow weight at 10 years old to kill a deer...So that would mean she couldnt hunt..but with a crossbow she would be able too! i think there should a different season for it, but i would rather see kids in the woods if that was the only thing holding them back!

[Swamp Ghost]

No kidding!!

My kids have been in the woods since they cant remember:dizzy:

what i was trying to say was my daughter might not be able to pull a enough bow weight at 10 years old to kill a deer...So that would mean she couldnt hunt..but with a crossbow she would be able too! i think there should a different season for it, but i would rather see kids in the woods if that was the only thing holding them back!

I agree, but I also agree that your kids like mine, will be in the woods with me if they want to be. Even if that means being a spectator.

I used to have just as much fun being the "beagle" for my families rabbit hunts as I did when I was old enough to carry a gun.

[Riva]

Youth get involved in hunting because of mentoring, not which weapon they use.


Partially correct; The historical pathway to introduce youth into hunting was small game hunting (small calibers, light recoils, moderate reports). Since the 1970's, small game hunting has seen a prolific decine (50%). As such, the same percentage of mentors that would normally introduce you people hunting sports are no longer around to help out.

Some thinking people have suggested that crossbows would be a viable way to introduce young people into hunting sports since small game hunting and available mentors have diminished to such a large degree. Others argue that young people should find other pathways to the hunting sports that do not include a crossbow in any capacity. Well, that's what we have now, and numbers are still declining. However; we kept those darn crossbows out of the woods though, didn't we? :rolleyes:

[Swamp Ghost]

Partially correct; The historical pathway to introduce youth into hunting was small game hunting (small calibers, light recoils, moderate reports). Since the 1970's, small game hunting has seen a prolific decine (50%). As such, the same percentage of mentors that would normally introduce you people hunting sports are no longer around to help out.

Some thinking people have suggested that crossbows would be a viable way to introduce young people into hunting sports since small game hunting and available mentors have diminished to such a large degree. Others argue that young people should find other pathways to the hunting sports that do not include a crossbow in any capacity. Well, that's what we have now, and numbers are still declining. However; we kept those darn crossbows out of the woods though, didn't we? :rolleyes:

I don't disagree with crossbows for youth hunters. I feel it's a stretch, but I am not opposed to it.

Saying it will help recruit/retain hunters has been proved wrong countless times. Look no further than OH, it's license sales have been on a steady decline, just like MI.

Other than a another "baby boom" or land discovery there is no fix. We will just have to manage with less hunters.

[NoWake]

We don't want our youth touching those xbow contraptions. The moment someone without a disability touches one, they instantly become lazy, inept slobs with no hunting skills.

I was about ready to pick one up to look at it when a friend stopped me and reminded me of this phenomenon. At first I wasn't concerned since I am already an inept, lazy, slob, but upon further consideration I left it on the rack for fear that it may compound my lazy, inept, slobliness. :D

[Whit1]

This guy is a good deer manager but isn't a very good mathematician.

7/10 hunt with a compound bow, but "slightly" more than half hunt with a crossbow? :lol:


Re-read what he said Jamie. He said that 7 out of ten will hunt with a "bow" not a compound bow. Your addition of the word "compound" changes the meaning and math. I must say this about you, and it's a very positive thing, you certainly have learned to discuss these issues that don't fit into Jamie's way of managing the deer herd in a civil manner.

[MERGANZER]

How can youth use crossbows?????? All I hear is that they are wayyy too heavy and cumbersome for adults so surely a youth could not hold it long enough for a good shot..........unless they had a rest:help:


I can remember like it was yesterday being 10 years old and pulling my bow back everyday trying to get strong enough to be able to hunt when I turned 12. I was able to take to the woods with 45lbs when I was 12 and proved my accuracy to my father in order to get the go ahead from him. Instant gratification is destroying our society lets not allow it to destroy our hunting mentality.

Ganzer

[jeffthedj]

I agree, but I also agree that your kids like mine, will be in the woods with me if they want to be. Even if that means being a spectator.

I used to have just as much fun being the "beagle" for my families rabbit hunts as I did when I was old enough to carry a gun.

i agree with you! but my son gets to hunt for the 1st time this year and he cant wait!! She will be with me in the treestand for sure..who knows maybe she'll be able to pull back the weight..but i do the like the option of a crossbow..what ever it takes to get them in the woods is good for me!

[Swamp Ghost]

Re-read what he said Jamie. He said that 7 out of ten will hunt with a "bow" not a compound bow. Your addition of the word "compound" changes the meaning and math. I must say this about you, and it's a very positive thing, you certainly have learned to discuss these issues that don't fit into Jamie's way of managing the deer herd in a civil manner.


I apologize, inserting "compound" was not intentional at all, I picked it from I will likely pick up my compound It's changes the rest of his math how? :lol: I am using HIS Number of bowhunters, Bow harvest, Bowhunter success rates, assumptions and estimates

I have even gone so far as removing my OH SO offensive, presumably deliberately misleading, mistake from the original post.

Feel free to check the rest of the math for accuracy.

The only thing that is obvious is the absolute spin "Tonk" wants to put on his crossbow use.

I'll chalk the rest up to a slanderous personal attack. Pretty typical of these discussions so far.

Nice use of your Moderator privileges, btw.

Whit1, That really, truly takes the cake.

[Munsterlndr]

This guy is a good deer manager but isn't a very good mathematician.

7/10 hunt with a compound bow, but "slightly" more than half hunt with a crossbow? :lol:

Obviously he is a better one than you! And quite likely has superior reading comprehension skills too! :lol:

If you actually read the quote you will see that he said 7 out of 10 licensed deer hunters in Ohio will take to the woods with a bow. 350,000 licensed deer hunters, 250,000 bow hunters (you inserted "compound", need to work on that comprehension thing ;))

Do the math, it comes out to 71% which anywhere other than on planet swamp ghost would be 7 out of ten.

So who is the math challenged one? :lol::lol::lol:

Approx. 56% of Ohio bow hunters use a crossbow, that would be slightly more than half.

Quit while your ahead Swamp, you are just starting to embarrass yourself.

[Swamp Ghost]

you are just starting to embarrass yourself.

Says the pot.....

[Swamp Ghost]

Approx. 56% of Ohio bow hunters use a crossbow, that would be slightly more than half.


56% maybe more, maybe less. I don't think he knows for sure. It still doesn't answer the question on why OH hunters would choose the crossbow over the "easy" compound bow. Probably the same reason MI hunters would, whatever that may be........

[Munsterlndr]

Says the pot.....
Ohhhhhhh! Good come back! :lol:

Not sure who you were quoting in your earlier post as it is unattributed, I assume it was some anti-crossbow dude that you found on the net, but whoever it was seems a little confused about a few things.

I will now demonstrate using data from ESPN Outdoors provided by Mike Tonkovich:............


250,000 “bowhunters “ (they really mean bowhunters + crossbowhunters) with a success rate of 16% = 40,000 “archery” kills.

Tonkovich had reported 60626 as the “bow” harvest. Hmmmmm – that would actually be a 25% harvest rate.

OK, your EXPERT is wrong someplace. Either there are way more “archers” than he thinks there are, or he has screwed up the harvest rate calculation.

Um, or maybe some hunters harvested more than one deer? If a hunter harvests two deer he is still only counted as one successful hunter when calculating the success percentage. Think maybe a few Ohio hunters harvest more than one deer a year? :rolleyes:


Since he has stated
Quote:
“In 1989, the crossbow harvest exceeded the vertical bow harvest for the first time and today accounts for nearly 60% of the total archery harvest”
and we assume what he does, that the success rate is identical for crossbows and bows, we can calculate the number of crossbowers and bowhunters from the data he gave to ESPN above:

60% of 250000 = 150000 crossbowers
40% of 250000 = 100000 bowhunters


Tonkovich stated that crossbows accounted for 60% of the total archery harvest. The total archery harvest was around 60,000 deer not 250,000 (the number of bowhunters) This brainiac is taking 60% of the total number of bow hunters. :rolleyes:

Given these examples of his obvious issues in dealing with mathematics, I would not feel safe with this guy in the woods with a calculator, let alone with a deadly weapon. :lol:

[Munsterlndr]

56% maybe more, maybe less. I don't think he knows for sure. It still doesn't answer the question on why OH hunters would choose the crossbow over the "easy" compound bow. Probably the same reason MI hunters would, whatever that may be........

For the same reason that you and 85% of bowhunters in this country choose compounds over longbows. Funny how you don't seem to have a problem with that 85% taking the "easy" way out.

Hypocrisy thy name is Swamp Ghost. :lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

For the same reason that you and 85% of bowhunters in this country choose compounds over longbows. Funny how you don't seem to have a problem with that 85% taking the "easy" way out.

Hypocrisy thy name is Swamp Ghost. :lol:

But hey at least we aren't trying to get around having to draw a bow. :evilsmile

Spin away.....:lol:

I love this stuff....:D

I have said I am not anti-crossbow, I don't know how many times I have to say it. I am against crossbows in bowseason. Trying to compare a longbow to a compound is like comparing a muzzleloader to a 30-06. It's the same reason compounds are legal in all 50 state's bowseasons they are bows, precisely why traditional guys lost in their effort to keep them out they are bows. Their is nothing to compare a crossbow too, it's a hybrid. It deserves it's own season.

I don't see how a disagreement on an issue has to result in personal attacks and name calling. It brings nothing to the table. It's safe to say we will never agree on this issue and I am fine with that. I have done my best trying not to offend anyone. If I have it was unintentional.

I'm going fishing...

cyas

[TJO]

It would be interesting to see how many opposed to xbows hunt privite land compared to the public land hunter. I couldn't even begin to guess at that one. I guess I'm still not sure where it is written that archery hunting has to be hard/difficult cause if that was truly the case then all the new modern archery equipment should be ban as well. Now if you have a profficancy test in order to obtain a lic that would then make some sorta sense cause you would then have to be able to pass said test before you could hunt.
I would also say that if the xbow had a truly longer effective range say like that of a gun I really could see opposition but being they have the same effective range logically it doesn't make sense.

[Ferg]

Don't this get personal, or should I say any more personal - I don't feel like going back and editing - so I'm shooting one across the bow :D ( should that be a 'cross'bow' ) I kill me LOL :D :D

ferg....

[Munsterlndr]

But hey at least we aren't trying to get around having to draw a bow. :evilsmile


No, you just want to make it easier to do so. ;)

Technology has advanced to the point where the line between drawing or not drawing a bow has become almost inconsequential and eventually you will come to the realization that all of the hoopla that you have made over the act of "drawing" a bow does not amount to a hill of beans in a hunting situation.

Just out of curiosity, what amount of time is the critical point for you before you will acknowledge that drawing a bow really does not make much of a difference. If a hunter could hold the bow at full draw for 5 minutes, would that give them ample time to set up and minimize the chance of detection? How about 10 or 15 minutes? 30 minutes? Just curious whether you will give an honest answer or whether your response will be no amount of time would make any difference.

[Swamp Ghost]

No, you just want to make it easier to do so. ;)

Technology has advanced to the point where the line between drawing or not drawing a bow has become almost inconsequential and eventually you will come to the realization that all of the hoopla that you have made over the act of "drawing" a bow does not amount to a hill of beans in a hunting situation.

Just out of curiosity, what amount of time is the critical point for you before you will acknowledge that drawing a bow really does not make much of a difference. If a hunter could hold the bow at full draw for 5 minutes, would that give them ample time to set up and minimize the chance of detection? How about 10 or 15 minutes? 30 minutes? Just curious whether you will give an honest answer or whether your response will be no amount of time would make any difference.

Come on Munster! I got some 'gills to catch!

Drawing and shooting a bow is what makes bowhunting, bowhunting.

If it didn't make a hill of beans we would not be having this discussion. I don't know how many times,the timing of/ the act of drawing a bow was not the make or break point for a successful shot opportunity.

It may not be the same all over, but the deer around me are heavily hunted and the wariest ones I have ever encountered. The motions and actions removed by the crossbow would eliminate, just my approximation here, 75% of the "busted" moments I've had.

I don't know of that many hunters, at least the ones I hunt alot with, that hold their bows at full draw for more than 20-30 seconds in a hunting situation.

[tjstebb]

I can remember like it was yesterday being 10 years old and pulling my bow back everyday trying to get strong enough to be able to hunt when I turned 12. I was able to take to the woods with 45lbs when I was 12 and proved my accuracy to my father in order to get the go ahead from him. Instant gratification is destroying our society lets not allow it to destroy our hunting mentality.

Ganzer
do you remember playing nintendo or sitting on the internet sending messages back and forth with your friends when you where 10? or how about being able to watch 900 channels on t.v.? my guess is probably not! but along with the advances in bow technology we as parents have these things to compete with and i know my son loves to hunt and has a love for the outdoors....but i got to tell ya if he sits in a stand for days before he sees something and then misses because he wasnt prepared or accurate with his "compound bow" then i stand a real good chance of loosing him as a hunting partner and i think this goes for "most" kids now days! things need to be fun all the time. and i do believe that there is a lot less to worry about when shooting a crossbow...anchor point,peep sight,is my grip too tight,is my bow level,...etc,
tjstebb

[sbooy42]

do you remember playing nintendo or sitting on the internet sending messages back and forth with your friends when you where 10? or how about being able to watch 900 channels on t.v.? my guess is probably not! but along with the advances in bow technology we as parents have these things to compete with and i know my son loves to hunt and has a love for the outdoors....but i got to tell ya if he sits in a stand for days before he sees something and then misses because he wasnt prepared or accurate with his "compound bow" then i stand a real good chance of loosing him as a hunting partner and i think this goes for "most" kids now days! things need to be fun all the time. and i do believe that there is a lot less to worry about when shooting a crossbow...anchor point,peep sight,is my grip too tight,is my bow level,...etc,
tjstebb

Missing is part of the game...Thats why its called hunting...
IMO its a very important lesson... I hunted and missed many deer for 4 yrs until I finally filled my first tag...
Some things you have to earn in life...

[tjstebb]

Missing is part of the game...Thats why its called hunting...
IMO its a very important lesson...
i would not disagree with that...i missed plenty of deer in my time....but i know from my time in the woods that i get my enjoyment out of being in the woods! and kids these days dont get a chance to get that same feeling because they have other things they would rather be doing....my point is if you can make it a little less complicated and hold there attention long enough then maybe just maybe the next time you say "lets go hunting" they WILL want to walk away from the computer or shut off the video game!
tjstebb

[Riva]

Missing is part of the game...Thats why its called hunting...
IMO its a very important lesson... I hunted and missed many deer for 4 yrs until I finally filled my first tag...
Some things you have to earn in life...

So, your inepitidue and/or lack of luck should become the template by which all criteria is established. It's the old "you gotta pay your dues" mantra before your personal experience can be determined to be "quality".
Milfrick'nlarky!

A few years back, I invited a pal to come up to my place to archery hunt for the very first time in his life. He purchased a $75 "complete" compund bow kit at K-Mart on his way up. He practiced with it for 2 or 3 hours before going out the next day and killing two dandy bucks the very first day in his life he had ever picked up a bow. In his mind, his personal experience was "outstanding". Frankly, I couldn't argue with him.

BTW, I hunted for 3 years before I took my first deer. The thought that I had to walk up some proverbial calvary hill to get to that moment in time never entered my mind. I was just glad for the moment and left it at that.

[sbooy42]

i would not disagree with that...i missed plenty of deer in my time....but i know from my time in the woods that i get my enjoyment out of being in the woods! and kids these days dont get a chance to get that same feeling because they have other things they would rather be doing....my point is if you can make it a little less complicated and hold there attention long enough then maybe just maybe the next time you say "lets go hunting" they WILL want to walk away from the computer or shut off the video game!
tjstebb
I agree but
for the sake of this thread and from my understanding there really is no difference between a xbow and compound..:lol:
With two young boys of my own I agree interest in the outdoors is a huge problem with our youth... But as mentioned before I don't think making it easier to kill an animal is the answer... Its not the weapon..its the mentor and experience that will get youngsters in the outdoors...

[tjstebb]

i just dont understand why it is so shameful to use a crossbow if it improves your ability and confidence in shooting and making a human kill!

i mean will someone tell me was there this much conflict when compounds where introduced? i mean we dont have separate season for those of you who choose to shoot with a longbow or recurve? did those recurve guys throw a fit because your new compound bows had wheels? or you could hold your bow at full draw longer and that would make it easier and give you a unfair advantage? or you had a riser you could mount sights on?
come on this is rediculous:mad:.
tjstebb

[sbooy42]

So, your inepitidue and/or lack of luck should become the template by which all criteria is established. It's the old "you gotta pay your dues" mantra before your personal experience can be determined to be "quality".
Milfrick'nlarky!

A few years back, I invited a pal to come up to my place to archery hunt for the very first time in his life. He purchased a $75 "complete" compund bow kit at K-Mart on his way up. He practiced with it for 2 or 3 hours before going out the next day and killing two dandy bucks the very first day in his life he had ever picked up a bow. In his mind, his personal experience was "outstanding". Frankly, I couldn't argue with him.

BTW, I hunted for 3 years before I took my first deer. The thought that I had to walk up some proverbial calvary hill to get to that moment in time never entered my mind. I was just glad for the moment and left it at that.

Good for him he had beginners luck...YIPPY
My uncle from Florida doesn't understand why I enjoy hunting.. He went hunting once bought a gun spent a bunch money on cloths etc...sat down for 5 minutes doe walked up 5yards and he his tag was filled.. He thought that was one of stupids things he had ever wasted $ and time on...

Maybe I should just put a bait pile in the back yard so my kids don't have to leave the couch or turn off their xbox to kill a deer..;)

[sbooy42]

i just dont understand why it is so shameful to use a crossbow if it improves your ability and confidence in shooting and making a human kill!

i mean will someone tell me was there this much conflict when compounds where introduced? i mean we dont have separate season for those of you who choose to shoot with a longbow or recurve? did those recurve guys throw a fit because your new compound bows had wheels? or you could hold your bow at full draw longer and that would make it easier and give you a unfair advantage? or you had a riser you could mount sights on?
come on this is rediculous:mad:.
tjstebb

I wasn't around either was the internet but I'm pretty sure it was a conflict..
Rediculous I agree...

Side note: have you been over to Zeroed In yet

[marty]

Or you could get a Horton

I have had both shoot side by side also and the ten point even with silencers is more nosier that the horton hands down. Also the horton is lighter in weight. My ten point is so heavy I have to use shooting sticks to shoot it

Or get shooting sticks for the Ten Point;)
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217954&highlight=crossbow

or you could lug my horton around:lol: gee the thread chasers are on mark today :lol:slow day boys:D

did you ever figure out those vodoo magic broadheads we use on them crossbow yet:yikes:

[Riva]

Good for him he had beginners luck...YIPPY
My uncle from Florida doesn't understand why I enjoy hunting.. He went hunting once bought a gun spent a bunch money on cloths etc...sat down for 5 minutes doe walked up 5yards and he his tag was filled.. He thought that was one of stupids things he had ever wasted $ and time on...


Maybe I should just put a bait pile in the back yard so my kids don't have to leave the couch or turn off their xbox to kill a deer..;)

So, my pal had a quality experience and you discount it as "beginner's luck" with the exclamation "YippY".

As you just confirmed with the story of your own uncle, one's personal experience can indeed be categorically different than the next person's. The fact that you do not share in one's opinion of what makes the personal experience, no matter if it was a positive or negative event, has 0% impact on the other person. Nor should it be the reason to keep people from having free choice. You guys keep preaching this "one true faith" crap and the only people buying in to it, is yourselves.:dizzy:

[sbooy42]

or you could lug my horton around:lol: gee the thread chasers are on mark today :lol:slow day boys:D

did you ever figure out those vodoo magic broadheads we use on them crossbow yet:yikes:
Ever pick up a Hoyt...LOL
No chasing needed my friend..I just happened to remember your goofy almost hypocritical statement from the last go round..
Their called crossbow specific broadheads....Alot of broadhead manufacturers have them..:dizzy: google crossbow broadhead

So, my pal had a quality experience and you discount it as "beginner's luck" with the exclamation "YippY".

As you just confirmed with the story of your own uncle, one's personal experience can indeed be categorically different than the next person's. The fact that you do not share in one's opinion of what makes the personal experience, no matter if it was a positive or negative event, has 0% impact on the other person. Nor should it be the reason to keep people from having free choice. You guys keep preaching this "one true faith" crap and the only people buying in to it, is yourselves.:dizzy:

Us guys??who... one true faith, what?..Sorry in no way did I mean to take anything away from your buddies experience...
I just wonder if he now thinks that everytime he goes bowhunting he going to kill a nice buck...Is it possible that his great first time out experience could skew his views of what hunting is all about...and that everytime out he's not going to kill something. and he could become bored or loose interest...

[tjstebb]

Maybe I should just put a bait pile in the back yard so my kids don't have to leave the couch or turn off their xbox to kill a deer..;)
can't do that anymore cause it would be illegal;)
my whole point is not to argue but to say we should ALL have the right to use a crossbow if so choose....as said earlier i would not give up my bow for one but if my son wanted to use one i would certainly not call his lazy but instead try to teach him how much more rewarding it is to use a compound bow......and hope that after he gets that addiction in his blood he would consider going to a compound.....


side note: sbooy i have not been in there yet. how about you?
tjstebb

[Munsterlndr]

Come on Munster! I got some 'gills to catch!

Drawing and shooting a bow is what makes bowhunting, bowhunting.

If it didn't make a hill of beans we would not be having this discussion. I don't know how many times,the timing of/ the act of drawing a bow was not the make or break point for a successful shot opportunity.

It may not be the same all over, but the deer around me are heavily hunted and the wariest ones I have ever encountered. The motions and actions removed by the crossbow would eliminate, just my approximation here, 75% of the "busted" moments I've had.

I don't know of that many hunters, at least the ones I hunt alot with, that hold their bows at full draw for more than 20-30 seconds in a hunting situation.
Nice non-answer to a direct question. :lol: The question was how long would it be necessary to hold a compound at full draw before the perceived disadvantage of having to draw the bow became immaterial?

Everybody that bow hunts get busted on occasion, it's happened many times to me. It's also happened many times to me when hunting with a pistol or a rifle, as well. I'd venture to guess that if you ever hunted with a crossbow it would happen with that weapon in your hand, as well. it's part of hunting. As far as your "guess" that a crossbow would eliminate being busted 75% of the time, since you have no actual experience hunting with a crossbow, it would pretty much make that a WAG. Numerous people who have actual experience hunting with both a compound and a crossbow have said that there is little or no difference between the two. The harvest statistics would support that contention. So who should be believed, people with actual experience or someone talking out of their .......elbow. Not a real difficult choice to make. :lol:

Hope your using a bamboo pole and a string and safety pin to catch those gills, wouldn't want to make it too easy! :lol:

[sbooy42]

side note: sbooy i have not been in there yet. how about you?
tjstebb
Nope hope'n to get over there in next couple weeks..Heard its pretty nice

[Riva]

[quote=tjstebb;2148203]i just don't understand why it is so shameful to use a crossbow if it improves your ability and confidence in shooting and making a human kill!

Typically, I am not one to call out typographical and/or spelling errors in a posts. However; there just happens to an absolute beauty in your last response (above) that makes more sense in its erroneous form than its intended application, particularly since it is is directed to some of the anti-crossbow advocates hereabouts! :lol::lol:

[tjstebb]

Nope hope'n to get over there in next couple weeks..Heard its pretty nice
i drive right by it everyday going to work and coming home at night...keep saying i am going to stop in but have not done it yet....yesterday was actually thefirst time i seen the open sign out there....
but heard they have been open for a few weeks,
tjstebb

[tjstebb]

[quote=tjstebb;2148203]i just don't understand why it is so shameful to use a crossbow if it improves your ability and confidence in shooting and making a human kill!

Typically, I am not one to call out typographical and/or spelling errors in a posts. However; there just happens to an absolute beauty in your last response (above) that makes more sense in its erroneous form than its intended application, particularly since it is is directed to some of the anti-crossbow advocates hereabouts! :lol::lol:
:lol::lol::lol::lol: there is no "e" in potato is there? but i am sure there suppose to be one in humane!:dizzy::dizzy:
thanks riva that could have been taken the wrong way around here!
tjstebb

[Riva]

[quote=Riva;2148321]
:lol::lol::lol::lol: there is no "e" in potato is there? but i am sure there suppose to be one in humane!:dizzy::dizzy:
thanks riva that could have been taken the wrong way around here!
tjstebb

it's simply perfect as is!:):)

[sbooy42]

[quote=tjstebb;2148203]i just don't understand why it is so shameful to use a crossbow if it improves your ability and confidence in shooting and making a human kill!

Typically, I am not one to call out typographical and/or spelling errors in a posts. However; there just happens to an absolute beauty in your last response (above) that makes more sense in its erroneous form than its intended application, particularly since it is is directed to some of the anti-crossbow advocates hereabouts! :lol::lol:
Thank you for pointing that out...Maybe we should just use firearms for 3 months then:rolleyes:
I was under the impression that it was shot placement that made a humane kill and not the weapon...
Guess I can stop practicing with my bow...

IMO I dont think there are any anti-crossbow advocates here...I think its a debate of when they should be used...There is already a legal season to use a cross-bow to hunt deer and I for one have no problem with it..Heck I think it would be fun to hunt deer with a cross-bow.
I'm sure you could find a better, non-dividing, word than anti

[weatherby]

Good info Sputty

[tjstebb]

sbooy
i also do not believe that there are any anti-crossbow sportsman here...
but, i do think we differ on the season part i am for the opening of crossbows for all and during the archery season....i think if they where to open a crossbow only season that it would cut some time from the bow season we already have....they are not going to have a season open earlier than the ones we already have....i just do not see where we will benefit as bow hunters....if we are going to loose time in the woods why not allow them during our season and just be happy we have a long bow season?
tjstebb

[sputty]

Like I said before, I'm glad there is not all this B.S. in Ohio. I can just pick my weapon and go hunt. It does'nt matter if you are healthy, disabled, male, female, young or old, just pick your archery weapon and hunt for the entire season. What is really alarming, is that certain bow-hunting organizations in Michigan do not even want age to be a consideration for the use of crossbows. Anyway we(as adults) can get youths involved in hunting, benefits us all. These organizations just want to have it their way, in what they think is their season.Play by their rules or don't hunt their season. They can go ahead and stand by thier view of 80% disabled(whatever that means) and vigoursly scrutinize all others, but I think(hope) that the day is coming where crossbows will be legal for all, during entire Michigan archery season.

[swampbuck]

Swampghost

Its called a r c h e r y season.

[sbooy42]

sbooy
i also do not believe that there are any anti-crossbow sportsman here...
but, i do think we differ on the season part i am for the opening of crossbows for all and during the archery season....i think if they where to open a crossbow only season that it would cut some time from the bow season we already have....they are not going to have a season open earlier than the ones we already have....i just do not see where we will benefit as bow hunters....if we are going to loose time in the woods why not allow them during our season and just be happy we have a long bow season?
tjstebb
There is no benefit to bowhunters...I'm not saying a stand alone season...Heck if its truelly about hunting with a cross-bow they can be used during firearm season. But instead most pick up a firearm. Why becuase they have that choice..and most choose the higher% weapon..
I guess my problem isn't the crossbow itself but the number of hunters that would take up hunting in the archery season..:yikes: (flame me) But lets be honest if tomorrow crossbows were legal the total # of hunters in MI would not change, only the number of hunters in the archery season because they now have the choice to pick up a weapon that is easier to use... I know hunters who have tried bowhunting and gave up because it took too much dedication to be successful season after season. Thats their choice..just like right now, if someone wants to hunt the archery season they have that choice to do so with a bow..they choose not to..Yes it would be nice to have another choice (xbow)..But it would also be nice to have the choice of using my Muzzleloader in Oct too;)
I think the first step in legalizing crossbows is better regulations of the deer harvest..I hate to imagine the number of young bucks killed if cross-bows were legal with no change to harvest regulations.

I do agree with ya on youngsters, elderly, & disabled..But not those who are already capable of hunting with a bow but choose not too...

[Swamp Ghost]

Nice non-answer to a direct question. :lol: The question was how long would it be necessary to hold a compound at full draw before the perceived disadvantage of having to draw the bow became immaterial?

Everybody that bow hunts get busted on occasion, it's happened many times to me. It's also happened many times to me when hunting with a pistol or a rifle, as well. I'd venture to guess that if you ever hunted with a crossbow it would happen with that weapon in your hand, as well. it's part of hunting. As far as your "guess" that a crossbow would eliminate being busted 75% of the time, since you have no actual experience hunting with a crossbow, it would pretty much make that a WAG. Numerous people who have actual experience hunting with both a compound and a crossbow have said that there is little or no difference between the two. The harvest statistics would support that contention. So who should be believed, people with actual experience or someone talking out of their .......elbow. Not a real difficult choice to make. :lol:

Hope your using a bamboo pole and a string and safety pin to catch those gills, wouldn't want to make it too easy! :lol:

Tell me how holding a drawn bow for however long you can manage influences the shot when you finally decide to take it.

Now shoulder a crossbow and tell me how holding a non-drawn, non-bow, shouldered weapon influences the exact same shot.

I have been known to kill a few deer with a gun. From treestands, the ground and from blinds. 90% of which are well within 30 yards. I have never hunted with a crossbow, but I have shot them. I have a very, very good idea of what hunting with a crossbow is like. The process of shooting a gun and shooting a crossbow are exactly the same, there is absloutely no disputing that. Not a difficult comparison to make, any honest person would admit the difference.

When I gunhunt shouldering the weapon isn't even a thought. When I bowhunt the timing and the act of drawing the bow dominate my thought process.

I guess that's why I always hear crossbowhunters say, "I could have shot him with my/a bow". Truth is a crossbowhunter that says that, will never know. Try as they might they can't help but compare themselves to bowhunters.

FYI, I was using an utlralight with 1lb test. Those bull bluegill are spooky.

[Munsterlndr]

Tell me how holding a drawn bow for however long you can manage influences the shot when you finally decide to take it.

Now shoulder a crossbow and tell me how holding a non-drawn, non-bow, shouldered weapon influences the exact same shot.

I have been known to kill a few deer with a gun. From treestands, the ground and from blinds. 90% of which are well within 30 yards. I have never hunted with a crossbow, but I have shot them. I have a very, very good idea of what hunting with a crossbow is like. The process of shooting a gun and shooting a crossbow are exactly the same, there is absloutely no disputing that. Not a difficult comparison to make, any honest person would admit the difference.

When I gunhunt shouldering the weapon isn't even a thought. When I bowhunt the timing and the act of drawing the bow dominate my thought process.

I guess that's why I always hear crossbowhunters say, "I could have shot him with my/a bow". Truth is a crossbowhunter that says that, will never know. Try as they might they can't help but compare themselves to bowhunters.

FYI, I was using an utlralight with 1lb test. Those bull bluegill are spooky.

It's been my experience when bow hunting, that the amount of time that you can easily hold back the bow at full draw has a direct bearing on making the set up for the shot easier. If you do not believe this to be true then explain the trend towards higher let off bows. The current non-typical world record holder held his bow at full draw for three minutes while waiting for the right shot. Had he been using a lower let off bow, I doubt he could have held it that long and thus may not have been able to harvest that deer. Holding an 7 or 8 lb. crossbow to your shoulder while trying to aim and not get busted due to movement is pretty darn similar to holding a high let off bow at full draw. Both have a finite duration until your ability to make an accurate shot becomes degraded.

If you gun hunt from a treestand and are shooting at deer within 30 yards, then shouldering your weapon becomes a very conscious act. It has to be done veeeery slowly or when the deer's vision is blocked by brush or a tree. Otherwise you are just as likely to be busted as if you were bow hunting. If you have any experience with close range deer hunting, whether with a bow, firearm or crossbow, you'll know that it only takes a tiny bit of movement to attract a deers attention. Crossbows do not provide any sort of magic defense against overwhelming the deer's natural senses (that would be scent-loc and I'm guessing that to be consistent that you are also opposed to it's use as it makes hunting too "easy") and crossbow hunters are going to be busted just as many times as vertical bow hunters are.

Btw, still no answer to the very simple question that I posed, what are you afraid of in answering a simple question? :confused:

[Swamp Ghost]

It's been my experience when bow hunting, that the amount of time that you can easily hold back the bow at full draw has a direct bearing on making the set up for the shot easier. If you do not believe this to be true then explain the trend towards higher let off bows. The current non-typical world record holder held his bow at full draw for three minutes while waiting for the right shot. Had he been using a lower let off bow, I doubt he could have held it that long and thus may not have been able to harvest that deer. Holding an 7 or 8 lb. crossbow to your shoulder while trying to aim and not get busted due to movement is pretty darn similar to holding a high let off bow at full draw. Both have a finite duration until your ability to make an accurate shot becomes degraded.

If you gun hunt from a treestand and are shooting at deer within 30 yards, then shouldering your weapon becomes a very conscious act. It has to be done veeeery slowly or when the deer's vision is blocked by brush or a tree. Otherwise you are just as likely to be busted as if you were bow hunting. If you have any experience with close range deer hunting, whether with a bow, firearm or crossbow, you'll know that it only takes a tiny bit of movement to attract a deers attention. Crossbows do not provide any sort of magic defense against overwhelming the deer's natural senses (that would be scent-loc and I'm guessing that to be consistent that you are also opposed to it's use as it makes hunting too "easy") and crossbow hunters are going to be busted just as many times as vertical bow hunters are.

Btw, still no answer to the very simple question that I posed, what are you afraid of in answering a simple question? :confused:

So simple, it makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

The fundamental difference between a bow and a crossbow is the draw.

Holding a 60-70# draw weight with 60,70,80% let-off 5# bow at full draw verses a 8# crossbow supported at the shoulder, with a bent forearm and the ability to rested on a knee, tripod, or rail (like a gun) is similar how?

Not even close.

Shouldering a weapon and drawing a bow in the presence of game, similar? Not even in the same ballpark.

If you want to start a limit "let-off" thread, go ahead, it's a different topic, as is scent-loc and baiting.

The fact that you must draw a bow, risking visual and aural detection, and make a correct shot using the archery skills of drawing, holding, anchoring, aiming and releasing at very close range and under extreme pressure is what makes bowhunting, just that bowhunting.

The fact that you do not need to do these things with a crossbow is why they do not belong in bowseason.

[Munsterlndr]

So simple, it makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

The fundamental difference between a bow and a crossbow is the draw.

Holding a 60-70# draw weight with 60,70,80% let-off 5# bow at full draw verses a 8# crossbow supported at the shoulder, with a bent forearm and the ability to rested on a knee, tripod, or rail (like a gun) is similar how?

Not even close.

Shouldering a weapon and drawing a bow in the presence of game, similar? Not even in the same ballpark.



It makes perfect sense which is why I'm guessing that you are reluctant to give an honest answer to a simple question. :lol:

The point is that technology is reducing your "fundamental difference" to the point where it is becoming almost inconsequential.

The difficulty between holding an 8 lb. crossbow to your shoulder for a period of time and holding todays high tech compounds at full draw is becoming increasingly similar. Both weapons can be used with a rest or brace so that is pretty much a wash.

You claim the bow in your example provides a substantive difference, how about holding a 3.5 lb, 40 lb. 99% let off bow compared to holding an unsupported 8 lb. crossbow? The former is currently available, legal hunting equipment during archery season. Are you going to suggest banning them because they are too "easy"? If not, then at some point technology is going to virtually erase the difference between the two weapons which kind makes your distinction about "drawing" the bow moot. Given that fact I can understand your reluctance to be pinned down regarding where that point is. :lol:

[KayJay]

I was just reading a new DNR order and they refer to 'archery season' as:

Quote:


Bow and arrow deer license and
Bow and arrow only seasons


Unquote:

Just thought it might be germane.

KJ

[tjstebb]

I think the first step in legalizing crossbows is better regulations of the deer harvest..I hate to imagine the number of young bucks killed if cross-bows were legal with no change to harvest regulations.

I do agree with ya on youngsters, elderly, & disabled..But not those who are already capable of hunting with a bow but choose not too...
I AGREE 100% on the first part.....


but on the second i think that is just nit picking and then you have to have more resources to make determinations of who falls in to those catagories....so in return we would limit the amount of new hunters and increase the need for more regs and man power to enforce those regs.....
the bottom line is we NEED more hunters in the woods to increase revenue!
IMO i think we should go to OBR and allow crossbows to ALL hunters that choose to use one and during the archery season.....
tjstebb

[tjstebb]

here is a resolution idea.....they should dedicate a season to crossbows.......yeah they should open a season from nov.1st to nov. 14th
and call it crossbow season.....but they should allow you to also use compound bows,recurves and longbows during this said season!
oh yeah and they should allow you to use homemade spears if you like!:hide:
tjstebb

[Swamp Ghost]

It makes perfect sense which is why I'm guessing that you are reluctant to give an honest answer to a simple question. :lol:

The point is that technology is reducing your "fundamental difference" to the point where it is becoming almost inconsequential.

The difficulty between holding an 8 lb. crossbow to your shoulder for a period of time and holding todays high tech compounds at full draw is becoming increasingly similar. Both weapons can be used with a rest or brace so that is pretty much a wash.

You claim the bow in your example provides a substantive difference, how about holding a 3.5 lb, 40 lb. 99% let off bow compared to holding an unsupported 8 lb. crossbow? The former is currently available, legal hunting equipment during archery season. Are you going to suggest banning them because they are too "easy"? If not, then at some point technology is going to virtually erase the difference between the two weapons which kind makes your distinction about "drawing" the bow moot. Given that fact I can understand your reluctance to be pinned down regarding where that point is. :lol:


Sorry but your comparison is bordering on the absurd. 99% let-off 40 lbs. draw? LOL! At least they are exhibiting 1% more effort than a crossbowhunters 0%. So much for motivation........

[MERGANZER]

I don't know anyone who can really hold their hunting bow at full draw for 5 to 10 minutes. That is a ridiculous thought.

Ganzer

[Munsterlndr]

I guess my problem isn't the crossbow itself but the number of hunters that would take up hunting in the archery season..:yikes: (flame me) But lets be honest if tomorrow crossbows were legal the total # of hunters in MI would not change, only the number of hunters in the archery season because they now have the choice to pick up a weapon that is easier to use...

I hate to imagine the number of young bucks killed if cross-bows were legal with no change to harvest regulations.


Instead of just throwing this out as some dire possibility,let's take a look and see what the likely result would actually be.

Just how many current gun hunters do you think would actually spend $1,000 or so and take up a crossbow?

Evidence from other states indicates that maybe 20% of current firearms hunters might try hunting with a crossbow. Let's stretch that even further (just because this is Michigan and were different, right?) and say that crossbows brought 100,000 new crossbow hunters into the woods (approx. 33% of currently non-bow hunting firearms hunters)

Using current harvest ratios, 100,000 new bow hunters
would increase the harvest by approx. 33,000 deer a year or roughly a 7% increase in total harvest. Obviously, this is acting under the assumption that all of those extra deer would not have been harvested anyway by former firearms hunters during firearms or muzzleloading season. The chances of that are almost ridiculous but just for argument purposes let's say it's the case.

Of those 33,000 extra deer harvested, approx. 20,000 of them would be bucks and 13,000 antlerless deer. Of those 55% would be harvested in the SLP, where there is no shortage of deer.

So under current management rules approx. 20,000 additional bucks would be harvested, 11,000 of them in the SLP, and 9,000 distributed between the NLP & UP. Now while many of those might be yearlings (we are after all talking about Michigan here ;)) not all of them would be and logically speaking a number of those yearlings would have been harvested anyway during the firearms or muzzleloader season.

The trade off for an approx. 8% increase in the antlered harvest would be 100,000 more hunters getting to expand their recreational opportunities, increasing the amount of revenue that gets spent on hunting in Michigan, which benefits both the state economy and the DNR by an increase in Pittmann-Robinson tax revenue that goes to the DNR.

Seems like a pretty reasonable trade off, especially given the fact that the 8% figure is much more likely to be closer to 4-5% and the 100,000 new hunter figure is much more likely to be around 50,000 hunters or so.

One final thought, just 10 years ago we had 71,000 more bow hunters in Michigan than we did in 2006. Do you shudder to think about what the impact of those hunters being in the woods was? Was archery hunting in 1998 a terrible experience?

C'mon. This gloom and doom the sky is falling stuff is ridiculous. We have already experienced what a major influx of new hunters into archery season was like and it was just fine.

[Munsterlndr]

Sorry but your comparison is bordering on the absurd. 99% let-off 40 lbs. draw? LOL! At least they are exhibiting 1% more effort than a crossbowhunters 0%. So much for motivation........
It's not absurd because it is a commercially available, legal option for Michigan bow hunters.

Still won't answer the question, huh? :lol: I'd say your reluctance to give an answer is "bordering on the absurd."

Oh, so now "motivation" and "effort" is reflected by the degree of let off a hunter chooses to use? You are going to rank the "worthiness" of compound bow users based on the legal equipment that they employ? Oh man, Swamp, I think you just jumped the shark on that one. Please inform us of your sliding scale of who qualifies as a "real, dedicated and motivated" bow hunter based on the amount of poundage they shoot! Your derision for other bow hunters whose equipment does not meet "your" standards certainly smacks of an elitist point of view, that's for sure! :lol:

[Munsterlndr]

I don't know anyone who can really hold their hunting bow at full draw for 5 to 10 minutes. That is a ridiculous thought.

Ganzer
So Adam, it's ridiculous simply because you have never seen it or because it's not possible?

If available, legal technology allowed a vertical bow hunter to hold his bow comfortably at full draw for 5 minutes, would you agree that it would diminish the perceived "advantage" that a crossbow has by not being drawn in the presence of game?

Simple question that deserves a simple answer, yes or no?

[MERGANZER]

It is apples and oranges IMHO you still draw it back and nobody draws a bow and holds it hoping a deer pops out of the brush. People draw as the game is gettiing in an area where an ethical shot may be presented. Nobody is going to climb in their stand pull their bow back and wait.

Ganzer

[Munsterlndr]

Still not answering the question. If you could comfortably draw and hold your vertical bow 5 minutes or so before taking the shot, would it decrease the perceived advantage that you say crossbows have due to not having to be drawn in the presence of game?

Simple question, Yes or no?

[MERGANZER]

It is irrelevant to be honest. But no! Crossbows still have an advantage IMHO. And If we have to cheapen the sport or water it down in order to recruit new hunters then forget it I don't want those hunters in the woods. Its hunting not shooting if these people want to get a guaranteed deal everytime they enter the woods they can pay the prices for the canned hunts all over the state and not be expected to learn anything about the woods or the animals that live there.

Ganzer

[Slick fishing]

Crossbows do not cheapin the sport at all, this is about a humane kill of the animal, that's the ending factor of this whole debate, We need to put that animal down fast and cleanly as possible end of story.. It's still using a arrow and I think the time to reload a cross bow is not any different then a regular bow, so use the best means possible to kill that animal, I am in full support of crossbows and I have been a avid bow hunter for 20 some odd years..Cya Slick

[tjstebb]

Its hunting not shooting if these people want to get a guaranteed deal everytime they enter the woods they can pay the prices for the canned hunts all over the state and not be expected to learn anything about the woods or the animals that live there.

Ganzer
the only guarantee is there is NO guarantee! do you think that somehow putting a crossbow in your hand makes it a guarantee! come on!
you are still going to have to locate deer and you are still going to have practice scent control.the only difference we are even talking about is wether or not you draw your bow while the deer is standing there!!

i guess i could understand a little if we where talking about something that shoot 2000 fps, but these shoot 375 fps on a good day! they are accurate to what 40-45 yards? my bowtech is that good!
tjstebb

[Munsterlndr]

It is irrelevant to be honest. But no! Crossbows still have an advantage IMHO. And If we have to cheapen the sport or water it down in order to recruit new hunters then forget it I don't want those hunters in the woods. Its hunting not shooting if these people want to get a guaranteed deal everytime they enter the woods they can pay the prices for the canned hunts all over the state and not be expected to learn anything about the woods or the animals that live there.

Ganzer

Thank you for answering my question.

How about 10 minutes? At what point would the draw and hold time have an impact in your opinion?

You would acknowledge that using a compound is easier than using a long bow or recurve? Did we "cheapen it and water it down" when we allow 85% of bow hunters to take advantage of that technology? Do you not want those hunters in the woods?

Would you not agree that allowing compound technology has brought large numbers of new hunters into the woods and if archers were required to use long bows or recurves that bow hunter numbers wold fall substantially?

[marty]

Ever pick up a Hoyt...LOL
No chasing needed my friend..I just happened to remember your goofy almost hypocritical statement from the last go round..
Their called crossbow specific broadheads....Alot of broadhead manufacturers have them..:dizzy: google crossbow broadhead





That's just shows what you know about crossbows WHICH is nothing:lol:. I use the same 100 grain spitfire I shot from my darton and my XI:yikes:

There is no one crossbow type broadheads manufacture. some even used the old fred bear blades:D

I also use the same plastic fletch you do:lol:

who would have thought that:dizzy:

when you get some facts let me know:evil:

[Swamp Ghost]

Come on Munster! "IF" you could hold a bow at for 5 minutes? Every second that passes at full draw has a increasingly negative effect on your shot. Not so with a crossbow. Most guys can't hold an undrawn compund bow at arms length for a minute.:lol:

I guess, "IF" the bow had a draw-lock and a Steady Ready it would be a fair comparison and you would have a point. The fact is some of these accesories are illegal and they are not necessary to the operation of the bow.

Unlike a crossbow with a built-in rest (the forearm) and the trigger mechanism holding back from 150 - 250# of draw weight for the shooter.

If you want to talk about limiting "accessories", it's another topic.

[Munsterlndr]

Come on Munster! "IF" you could hold a bow at for 5 minutes? Every second that passes at full draw has a increasingly negative effect on your shot. Not so with a crossbow. Most guys can't hold an undrawn compund bow at arms length for a minute.:lol:

I guess, "IF" the bow had a draw-lock and a Steady Ready it would be a fair comparison and you would have a point. The fact is some of these accesories are illegal and they are not necessary to the operation of the bow.

Unlike a crossbow with a built-in rest (the forearm) and the trigger mechanism holding back from 150 - 250# of draw weight for the shooter.

If you want to talk about limiting "accessories", it's another topic.

Nope, not talking about using a draw-loc, thats illegal without a permit. A steady ready is legal, though. I'm not talking about what other guys do or use, I'm talking about available technology that is legal to use. Once again, the question is whether being able to comfortably hold a vertical bow at full draw for 5 minutes would decrease the perceived advantage of not having to draw a crossbow. After a lot of hemming and hawing, Adam answered the question no. We'll see what number of minutes, if any, would make a difference to him. So for the fourth time, what say you? Just a simple yes or no answer is all that is required, Swamp. ;)

[Swamp Ghost]

Would you not agree that if "compounds" were banned that many more bowhunters than crossbowhunters would pick up a recurve or longbow and pick right up where they left off?

Left-off does not assist in the drawing of the bow, the vast majority of bows are 60# 70% left-offs. How many models afford the 99% left-off mark?

[Swamp Ghost]

Nope, not talking about using a draw-loc, thats illegal without a permit. A steady ready is legal, though. I'm not talking about what other guys do or use, I'm talking about available technology that is legal to use. Once again, the question is whether being able to comfortably hold a vertical bow at full draw for 5 minutes would decrease the perceived advantage of not having to draw a crossbow. After a lot of hemming and hawing, Adam answered the question no. We'll see what number of minutes, if any, would make a difference to him. So for the fourth time, what say you? Just a simple yes or no answer is all that is required, Swamp. ;)

Nope you are talking about accesories.

Like I said "IF" you could it would. Let's not talk about IF's. Let's talk about facts. The fact is you CAN hold a crossbow for that long.

Let's talk about the real majority of bowhunters. Somewhere between 65-80% letoff, but hand drawn and hand held. Still a world of difference between that a cocked and locked crossbow. A 70# lb compound at full draw and 80% letoff still requires 70# to be drawn and 14# to be held. A 225# xbow at full draw requires - oh, that's right - ZERO.

It's been fun Munster.

If, indeed, this bow is so "similar" to a crossbow....why not just use this bow? There appears to be NO NEED for a crossbow.

Instead, you want us to believe that since a crossbow is so "similar" to this bow, that they should be allowed.

All of this presupposes that the 100% letoff is the determining factor in defining a crossbow, and ignores the fact that you still must hold, draw, and shoot your concept like a bow. It also ignores the fact that the percentage of bows actually out in the hunting woods with 99% letoff is near zero.

Nobody is so stupid to believe that a concept is a crossbow....why is that?

The answer to this question defines the whole issue with crossbows.

If you want to ban concepts - go for it. If you want to add crossbows, I suggest you find a better leg to stand on.

[Munsterlndr]

Would you not agree that if "compounds" were banned that many more bowhunters than crossbowhunters would pick up a recurve or longbow and pick right up where they left off?

Left-off does not assist in the drawing of the bow, the vast majority of bows are 60# 70% left-offs. How many models afford the 99% left-off mark?

No I would not agree. What are you basing that assumption on? If you look at the popularity of bowhunting in Michigan, from 1938 when the first season was enacted until the mid to late 80's, when compounds hit the mainstream, bow hunter numbers remained a fraction of what they are today. I think it's a reasonable assumption to think that if compounds were made illegal that bowhunter numbers in Michigan would drop by about 80%.

Let off certainly assists in drawing the bow. You still need to pull the initial poundage with a compound but you hit the break point prior to reaching full draw. The higher the let off, the easier it is to draw the bow after hitting the break point. How does that not assist in drawing the bow?

Again, your source for your contention that the vast majority of bows being 60lb. 70% let-off bows? I'd be interested in reading that information if you could please provide it.

How many models provide for 99% let off? Well, I know of at least 4. Monster bows (who I believe are a sponsor) have 90% let off models. High let off technology is relatively new and some of the bugs are still being worked out. My guess is that once all the bugs are worked out that they will become a majority of new bows sold but it's just a guess based on the historic trends of compound bow sales, which has seen a steady shift to higher let offs as they become commercially available. If there is no desire, why are more and more manufacturers offering higher let offs?

Still dodging the question, I see. :lol:

[sbooy42]

Instead of just throwing this out as some dire possibility,let's take a look and see what the likely result would actually be.

Just how many current gun hunters do you think would actually spend $1,000 or so and take up a crossbow?

Evidence from other states indicates that maybe 20% of current firearms hunters might try hunting with a crossbow. Let's stretch that even further (just because this is Michigan and were different, right?) and say that crossbows brought 100,000 new crossbow hunters into the woods (approx. 33% of currently non-bow hunting firearms hunters)

Using current harvest ratios, 100,000 new bow hunters
would increase the harvest by approx. 33,000 deer a year or roughly a 7% increase in total harvest. Obviously, this is acting under the assumption that all of those extra deer would not have been harvested anyway by former firearms hunters during firearms or muzzleloading season. The chances of that are almost ridiculous but just for argument purposes let's say it's the case.

Of those 33,000 extra deer harvested, approx. 20,000 of them would be bucks and 13,000 antlerless deer. Of those 55% would be harvested in the SLP, where there is no shortage of deer.

So under current management rules approx. 20,000 additional bucks would be harvested, 11,000 of them in the SLP, and 9,000 distributed between the NLP & UP. Now while many of those might be yearlings (we are after all talking about Michigan here ;)) not all of them would be and logically speaking a number of those yearlings would have been harvested anyway during the firearms or muzzleloader season.

The trade off for an approx. 8% increase in the antlered harvest would be 100,000 more hunters getting to expand their recreational opportunities, increasing the amount of revenue that gets spent on hunting in Michigan, which benefits both the state economy and the DNR by an increase in Pittmann-Robinson tax revenue that goes to the DNR.

Seems like a pretty reasonable trade off, especially given the fact that the 8% figure is much more likely to be closer to 4-5% and the 100,000 new hunter figure is much more likely to be around 50,000 hunters or so.

One final thought, just 10 years ago we had 71,000 more bow hunters in Michigan than we did in 2006. Do you shudder to think about what the impact of those hunters being in the woods was? Was archery hunting in 1998 a terrible experience?

C'mon. This gloom and doom the sky is falling stuff is ridiculous. We have already experienced what a major influx of new hunters into archery season was like and it was just fine.

Sorry munster I am busy today so I dont have time to read all your reasearch facts about other states and play your answer my question the way I want it answered game that you seem to play with everyone else..
Sorry

here is a resolution idea.....they should dedicate a season to crossbows.......yeah they should open a season from nov.1st to nov. 14th
and call it crossbow season.....but they should allow you to also use compound bows,recurves and longbows during this said season!
oh yeah and they should allow you to use homemade spears if you like!:hide:
tjstebb
Sounds good....;)

That's just shows what you know about crossbows WHICH is nothing:lol:. I use the same 100 grain spitfire I shot from my darton and my XI:yikes:

There is no one crossbow type broadheads manufacture. some even used the old fred bear blades:D

I also use the same plastic fletch you do:lol:

who would have thought that:dizzy:

when you get some facts let me know:evil:

Horton isn't that what you shoot? they make corssbow broadheads..Pretty sure NAP makes Xbow specific heads too....
http://www.cabelas.com/spodw-1/0039055.shtml

HMM?? special targets too..and scopes that look like rifle scopes...wow
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/index/index-display.jsp?id=cat600281&cmCat=netcon&cm_ven=netcon&cm_cat=Google&cm_pla=crossbow%20broadhead&cm_ite=netcon

Please if you could video yourself shooting FOB fletchings out of your cross-bow that would be awesome:lol:

[KayJay]

I don't have a dog in this, but, I was thinking the other day about how I felt or thought about it.

I preceive this, in this way, when is a bow 'loaded' and ready for the taking of game?

My rifle is loaded when I sit down, and with a single click I'm armed and ready to fire.

Now, I'm not up on my xbows, but my concept of them is the same, when I sit down, I'm a click away from being armed and ready to fire.

When is a bow, truely loaded? I would contest, not until it's fully drawn and loaded with energy is loaded. Sure you can have an arrow noc'd but without energy it's not armed and ready.

Is that the not the true difference?

Just asking.

KJ

[tjstebb]

KJ,
i guess i am unsure of your question but i THINK where you are going with this is:

a crossbow should be used during rifle season because it is loaded all the time and ready to fire just like a rifle and that is un true of the standard compound bow....am i correct?


because.........if that is the reason they should be in the firearm season....
than how about this one......

my compound bow shoots a whopping 310 fps and a crossbow shoots a whopping 375 fpstherefore it should be consider a bow....unlike the rifle that shoots 2000 fps......HUGE difference......!

also my bow is effective out to about 45-50 yards this being about the same with the crossbow.....now the rifle on the other hand i can shoot out to at least 400 yards or more!

sounds to me crossbows are more like bows then once thought!!!:lol:

[KayJay]

I wasn't really going anywere, just trying to form a logical position on the subject, as I know absolutly nothing about them.

I guess, without any futher study or education on my part, and to try to stay with the subject, facts about crossbows, I was attempting to figure out what the basic difference was between a bow and xbow, if any.

OR what the basic difference was between a gun and xbow, again, if any.

Does the bottom line come down to, 1) do we hunt with them during bow and arrow season or during gun season, or do we establish a season just for the xbow?

But it doesn't really matter, any of it, unless or should I, dare I say, until, they are made legal for everyone to choose from as a harvest wep?

KJ

[Munsterlndr]

KJ -
Maybe the question you should be posing is does it really matter when a bow is considered "loaded"? Meaning that if the fact that a crossbow is cocked & locked vs. a bow being drawn has no impact on the eventual outcome, why would it even be an issue?

If you are new to this issue, ponder this undeniable fact while considering the differences between the two weapons;

In virtually every state that has included crossbows in archery season, the hunter success rate between crossbow hunters and vertical bow hunters is either identical or gives a slightly higher success rate for vertical bow users. The same cannot be said when comparing firearms to bows or even when comparing compound bows to long or recurve bows. Firearms hunters have a higher success rate due to the inherent advantage of firearms over bows. Compound bow users have a higher success rate than long or recurve bow users, again due to the technological advantage that compounds have over long bows. But between crossbows and vertical bows? The difference is nada. That is not an opinion it's a verifiable fact.

So at the end of the day, what difference does the physical appearance or the fact that one is cocked and one isn't, really make?

It is the impact of the weapon on the resource that should be the determining factor when assessing which weapons should be included in which season.

[Munsterlndr]

Sorry munster I am busy today so I dont have time to read all your reasearch facts about other states and play your answer my question the way I want it answered game that you seem to play with everyone else..
Sorry


Um, the numbers that I posted were based almost completely on current statistics from Michigan. Too bad that you don't have time to engage in a meaningful discussion but I guess that it's quicker to just throw out unsubstantiated "what if's" instead of actually looking in depth into the possible impact of the topic under discussion. Quicker maybe, but substantially less convincing if you are really trying to make a convincing argument. ;)

[tjstebb]

KJ,
my bad then i thought or assumed you where heading somewhere in fact you where not.....
someone made the point ealier (may have been you) that all that should matter on this whole subject is that WHATEVER weapon you choose to shoot it is essential to be accurate and confident for the sake of the animal you are hunting!!!

Now if it is easier for someone to shoot a crossbow than a compound bow so be it....that is there choice!

there is probably a number of bowhunters that i would not want to see in the woods hunting because they don't put in the time required to make a humane kill.....but if you put a crossbow in there hands that could change!
but are they less of a sportsman than me? absolutely not!!
tjstebb

[KayJay]

KJ -
Maybe the question you should be posing is does it really matter when a bow is considered "loaded"? Meaning that if the fact that a crossbow is cocked & locked vs. a bow being drawn has no impact on the eventual outcome, why would it even be an issue?

If you are new to this issue, ponder this undeniable fact while considering the differences between the two weapons;

In virtually every state that has included crossbows in archery season, the hunter success rate between crossbow hunters and vertical bow hunters is either identical or gives a slightly higher success rate for vertical bow users. The same cannot be said when comparing firearms to bows or even when comparing compound bows to long or recurve bows. Firearms hunters have a higher success rate due to the inherent advantage of firearms over bows. Compound bow users have a higher success rate than long or recurve bow users, again due to the technological advantage that compounds have over long bows. But between crossbows and vertical bows? The difference is nada. That is not an opinion it's a verifiable fact.

So at the end of the day, what difference does the physical appearance or the fact that one is cocked and one isn't, really make?

It is the impact of the weapon on the resource that should be the determining factor when assessing which weapons should be included in which season.

Makes perfect sense to me.

So, why not just make a xbow season and be done with it?

Or, maybe, include the xbow in a season AND in an area that needs increased harvest?

Again, just thinking outloud.

KJ

[sbooy42]

Um, the numbers that I posted were based almost completely on current statistics from Michigan. Too bad that you don't have time to engage in a meaningful discussion but I guess that it's quicker to just throw out unsubstantiated "what if's" instead of actually looking in depth into the possible impact of the topic under discussion. Quicker maybe, but substantially less convincing if you are really trying to make a convincing argument. ;)

I found some time..Like I said I didn't read it..I was ASSuME'n form your other post
So what it boils down to is

The trade off for an approx. 8% increase in the antlered harvest would be 100,000 more hunters getting to expand their recreational opportunities, increasing the amount of revenue that gets spent on hunting in Michigan, which benefits both the state economy and the DNR by an increase in Pittmann-Robinson tax revenue that goes to the DNR.

I would agree if they were new to hunting all around but I
I don't understand how 100,000 hunters hunting in Oct will increase revenue..Its not like they are new hunters..they will be spending the same amount on licenses, but hunting 1.5 months longer...Yes they would be spending money on new equipment but that doesn't help the DNR does it..

Also I just don't understand why those 100,000 hunters choose not to expand their recreational opportunities under the current legal means...

[KayJay]

KJ,
there is probably a number of bowhunters that i would not want to see in the woods hunting because they don't put in the time required to make a humane kill.....

I believe that could be said for gun hunters as well. :yikes:

I didn't say the part about humane kill, but I believe that to be a good point and we owe it to the rersource to achieve.

KJ

[Munsterlndr]

Makes perfect sense to me.

So, why not just make a xbow season and be done with it?

Or, maybe, include the xbow in a season AND in an area that needs increased harvest?

Again, just thinking outloud.

KJ

I'm fine with a stand alone crossbow season and have suggested it many times in this forum. It has been almost universally rejected by bow hunters. Since archery season encompasses most of the current hunting season calender, where would you put it?

Do you also let vertical bow hunters hunt with their weapon of choice during the same season? (wait a minute, I thought they did not want to share the woods with crossbow hunters?) I'd be Ok with that but then it will be claimed that you are allowing crossbows in part of archery season. But if bow hunters really wanted to give up part of the existing bow season so they would not have to share it with crossbows, I'd be Ok with that, too. ;)

I've suggested making crossbows legal only for private land, so as not to impact public land vertical bowhunters. I was labeled an elitist who was discriminating against public land hunters (this coming from bow hunters who were opposed to crossbows) :lol:

If you are going to give crossbows an independent season, then I suggest a two week day season sometime between Oct. 1st and Nov. 14th and then also make them legal during any established firearms season including muzzleloading and late and early antlerless seasons.

I'd also establish urban deer zones in parts of the SLP (as Ohio has done) and allow unrestricted crossbow use during all seasons in those specific zones. It could go a long way towards helping with the severe SLP over population problem.

The standard response, though, from most anti-crossbow folks is that they are adamantly opposed to allowing crossbows in any season except the current two week firearms season. That is the official position of MBH.

Short of any evidence of compromise, the alternative is to push for full inclusion in archery season.

[MERGANZER]

there is probably a number of bowhunters that i would not want to see in the woods hunting because they don't put in the time required to make a humane kill.....but if you put a crossbow in there hands that could change!
but are they less of a sportsman than me? absolutely not!!
tjstebb


Why would it change??????? BINGO! cause the crossbow takes less skill and it brings with it advantages. You made my point for me.

As far as harvest numbers or success rates being the same that means nothing. Maybe the bowgunters are just better woodsmen on average than the crossbow weekend warrior is.

Ganzer

[marty]

Horton isn't that what you shoot? they make corssbow broadheads..Pretty sure NAP makes Xbow specific heads too....
http://www.cabelas.com/spodw-1/0039055.shtml

HMM?? special targets too..and scopes that look like rifle scopes...wow
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/index/index-display.jsp?id=cat600281&cmCat=netcon&cm_ven=netcon&cm_cat=Google&cm_pla=crossbow%20broadhead&cm_ite=netcon

Please if you could video yourself shooting FOB fletchings out of your cross-bow that would be awesome:lol:


have you picked up an archery catalog say in the last ten years or so. So horton sells a broadhead for a crossbow which could be shot on your hoyt.:D

Nap is "new archery products" and they push the spitfire as I stated before. marketing thing for ten point as well. The same head I use to shoot on my compounds:evil:

Guess what I can shoot a lot of heads shot on compounds so what's the big deal . My "bolt" as you guys like to call it does the same thing your arrow does. It kills by blood loss. so where's that black magic head again:yikes:

As for special targets?? I use a standard block target outside. In my house I shoot a homemade target in my basement. Best target ever:lol:

Scopes he he he surley you just:dizzy: you never seen a scope on a bow:lol:
I seen them 25 years ago:D


I promise I use the same plastic flecth found on bunches of hunting arrows right now and I'll bet money on that :lol:

so what about the magical broadheads?? do you have any good place to buy some that will track the deer and serve me coffee while I wait for my big buck since hunting with a crossbow is so easy:evilsmile

[KayJay]

How about this: Unrestricted crossbow season (any open season) in all DMU's that are over populated by the DNR's population estimates?

Optional weapon. Public and private.

KJ

[Munsterlndr]

How about this: Unrestricted crossbow season (any open season) in all DMU's that are over populated by the DNR's population estimates?

Optional weapon. Public and private.

KJ

It's a good start, I could live with that. You just provided full inclusion for about 65% of Michigans hunters. Good luck selling this plan to Swamp Ghost! :lol:

I'd also add unrestricted use for those over 60 and all youth hunters, regardless of DMU, too.

[sbooy42]

have you picked up an archery catalog say in the last ten years or so. So horton sells a broadhead for a crossbow which could be shot on your hoyt.:D

Nap is "new archery products" and they push the spitfire as I stated before. marketing thing for ten point as well. The same head I use to shoot on my compounds:evil:

Guess what I can shoot a lot of heads shot on compounds so what's the big deal . My "bolt" as you guys like to call it does the same thing your arrow does. It kills by blood loss. so where's that black magic head again:yikes:

As for special targets?? I use a standard block target outside. In my house I shoot a homemade target in my basement. Best target ever:lol:

Scopes he he he surley you just:dizzy: you never seen a scope on a bow:lol:
I seen them 25 years ago:D


I promise I use the same plastic flecth found on bunches of hunting arrows right now and I'll bet money on that :lol:

so what about the magical broadheads?? do you have any good place to buy some that will track the deer and serve me coffee while I wait for my big buck since hunting with a crossbow is so easy:evilsmile

Do you shoot at those targets off shooting sticks too

Sorry I am not up to your level of education of the modern Archery equipment...Spitfires hmm I've been using them for many years thanks for thanks for telling me what NAP stands...never could figure that our:dizzy:...

I heard slick tricks do magic...but that would make hunting with an xbow way too easy...what a joke if you think killing an animal with a xbow is the same as killing one with a bow...

If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle...but she doesn't, therefore shes not

[marty]

How about this: Unrestricted crossbow season (any open season) in all DMU's that are over populated by the DNR's population estimates?

Optional weapon. Public and private.

KJ

isn't that most of michigan anyway??:confused:

[Riva]

It's a good start, I could live with that. You just provided full inclusion for about 65% of Michigans hunters. Good luck selling this plan to Swamp Ghost! :lol:

I'd also add unrestricted use for those over 60 and all youth hunters, regardless of DMU, too.

you forgot 3 groups:

1. persons with disabilities

2, those you wish to retain in archery sports (age 43 and greater)

Those under age 43 who will now discriminated against because they now fall into a subset defined as able bodied archery hunters who want to have a choice of longbow, compound bow or crossbow.

Me starting to think full inclusion be good thing, kimosabe.:D

[marty]

Do you shoot at those targets off shooting sticks too

Sorry I am not up to your level of education of the modern Archery equipment...Spitfires hmm I've been using them for many years thanks for thanks for telling me what NAP stands...never could figure that our:dizzy:...

I heard slick tricks do magic...but that would make hunting with an xbow way too easy...what a joke if you think killing an animal with a xbow is the same as killing one with a bow...

If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle...but she doesn't, therefore shes not


Well being i have a screwed back and neck I do use sticks but I can shoot from a chair as well off my knee just like I use to shoot a bow so what's is your point?? You keep jumping around on things:dizzy:

no joke if I shoot a deer with a compound or a crossbow could you tell by looking at the deer? no you won't be able to would you?? maybe you can look at the blood trail and tell:lol: that's funny :lol:

NO difference my man none what so ever:yikes: get over that would ya;)

Your aunt had balls she be my uncle what the heck you drinkin man:confused: I got grandkids later boys and girls and aunts with balls:tdo12:

[KayJay]

you forgot 3 groups:

1. persons with disabilities

2, those you wish to retain in archery sports (age 43 and greater)

Those under age 43 who will now discriminated against because they now fall into a subset defined as able bodied archery hunters who want to have a choice of longbow, compound bow or crossbow.

Me starting to think full inclusion be good thing, kimosabe.:D

By unrestricted, I meant to include all of these groups. Hence, Unrestricted.

KJ

[sbooy42]

Your aunt had balls she be my uncle what the heck you drinkin man:confused: I got grandkids later boys and girls and aunts with balls:tdo12:

didn't expect you to understand it

[Swamp Ghost]

Me starting to think full inclusion be good thing, kimosabe.:D

Precisely why you hurt your "passion" the "disabled" hunter.

Deep down there is always, always another motive behind "crossbows for the disabled".

Pathetic.......

[tjstebb]

Why would it change??????? BINGO! cause the crossbow takes less skill and it brings with it advantages. You made my point for me.


Ganzer
I am pretty certain i have never said that crossbows don't have a advantage over compounds! I could care less if you have a advantage or i have a advantage as long as in the end we both make a humane kill and the animal does not suffer!
tjstebb

[Whit1]

I am pretty certain i have never said that crossbows don't have a advantage over compounds! I could care less if you have a advantage or i have a advantage as long as in the end we both make a humane kill and the animal does not suffer!
tjstebb


One of the most adroit posts I've seen in these threads.

[marty]

didn't expect you to understand it


just like you can't understand how my crossbow kills the same as your compound:confused: there's not a bit of difference. Once that broadhead is on it's mark it's all over with. Doesn't matter if it came from your hoyt or my horton that deer is just as dead . Broadheads choice means nothing :D

Here's another fact for you crossbows hunters use 2219 size aluminum arrows the same arrows hunters shoot today. also same type fletch :D

go shoot a crossbow maybe you might learn something:lol:

[sputty]

Precisely why you hurt your "passion" the "disabled" hunter.

Deep down there is always, always another motive behind "crossbows for the disabled".

Pathetic.......
No, what is pathetic is the MBH stance on that they do not want to even consider age as a factor for crossbows. MBH wants to stick with 80% disability ONLY. Their views are not the views of most reasonable hunters. IMO:idea::idea::idea:

[Riva]

Precisely why you hurt your "passion" the "disabled" hunter.

Deep down there is always, always another motive behind "crossbows for the disabled".

Pathetic.......


I never ceases to amaze me just how low you guys will stoop with your inuendo and scurrilous comments. For your information, I don't have a dog in this frick'n fight. That's because I already hunt with a crossbow and, I do so by virtue of having a permanent medical disability that actually exceeds the moronic 80% threshhold. Way exceeds it, in fact! So, this isn't anything to do about me wanting to hunt with a crossbow and backfilling the medical criteria to make it happen.

As hard as it is for you to believe, my agenda has been to stop the discrimination that exists with regard to disabled hunter's rights--the same agenda that the MBH veheminently opposes. Suddenly, I make my first postive comment anywhere surrounding consideration of unrestricted use and you then spin it into me using the disabled agenda to promote unrestricted crossbow use. There are a lot of words to describe this technique, but I can tell you that the word "honorable" is not amongst them.

Some advice, if you are able, try to argue unrestricted crossbows use on its merits as I have argued similarly for disabled hunters rights. More people might just listen to you.:rolleyes: They might not agree with you, by at least they will listen.

And, let me screw with your head a little further, I am indeed in favor of unrestricted crossbow use however: if and when I chose to debate that specific issue, which, to date, I have chosen to avoid, it will be solely on on the merits of the arguement, pro and con. In other words, with honor.

[Swamp Ghost]

Here's some advice, don't intertwine disabled crossbow use and unrestricted crossbow use.

It seems it's impossible, I wonder why? Because the crossbow thrives on "tug on the heart string" stories.

Riva, no need for the cloak and dagger act.

People never cease to amaze me, if folks feel they need a "bow" used by the disabled so they can feel like a bowhunter, go ahead, just do it in Ohio.

You have your agenda and I have mine. It's too bad some folks beat around the bush about it.

[Munsterlndr]

Here's some advice, don't intertwine disabled crossbow use and unrestricted crossbow use.

You might want to share that sentiment with your compatriots at MBH. They intertwine the two at just about every turn. Their primary reasoning for not agreeing to a reasonable compromise on establishing realistic standards for a crossbow permit is that it could lead to unrestricted use. You know the old slippery slope argument that they like to put forth. I'd say that is doing a pretty good job of intertwining the two issues. Instead of crafting crossbow permit criteria that would allow tens of thousands more worthy sportsman to continue to enjoy Michigan's outdoors, instead they would rather focus on restricting opportunities and simply allowing attrition to continue to deplete the ranks of archers in Michigan. Good thinking guys! :rolleyes:

[sbooy42]

just like you can't understand how my crossbow kills the same as your compound:confused: there's not a bit of difference. Once that broadhead is on it's mark it's all over with. Doesn't matter if it came from your hoyt or my horton that deer is just as dead . Broadheads choice means nothing :D

Here's another fact for you crossbows hunters use 2219 size aluminum arrows the same arrows hunters shoot today. also same type fletch :D

go shoot a crossbow maybe you might learn something:lol:

I never said they killed in a diffrent way...its the manner of sending the broadhead that is diffrent
You still stuck on that broadhead thing..jeez guess that's about all ya have :sad:..

Fact is even though a 22 and 12 ga both shoot lead they are different...same reason my aunt isn't my uncle

Aluminum?...and I'm the one who hasn't picked up an archery magazine in 10 yrs:rolleyes:

Just like last time, fact is I have shot crossbows...and there is a big difference.. so:lol:
..fact is they are easier....

You have a great argument though...maybe we could use it to legalize rifles during muzzleloader season... since they both throw lead and kill the same way:dizzy:
Once again its been ,real, but I am no longer able to stay at your level of in-genius...

Happy Hunting my friend
And I still wish you were able to use your bow

[Riva]

You might want to share that sentiment with your compatriots at MBH. They intertwine the two at just about every turn. Their primary reasoning for not agreeing to a reasonable compromise on establishing realistic standards for a crossbow permit is that it could lead to unrestricted use. You know the old slippery slope argument that they like to put forth. I'd say that is doing a pretty good job of intertwining the two issues. Instead of crafting crossbow permit criteria that would allow tens of thousands more worthy sportsman to continue to enjoy Michigan's outdoors, instead they would rather focus on restricting opportunities and simply allowing attrition to continue to deplete the ranks of archers in Michigan. Good thinking guys! :rolleyes:

MusnsterIndr...

Great reply however; it might just be a moot point. I just now got some tidbits of info from a person in the know who stated the MBH had their butts kicked big time on the disability issue at today's NRC meeting in Lansing. Checking it out as we speak...Film at 11!

[wally-eye]

MusnsterIndr...

Great reply however; it might just be a moot point. I just now got some tidbits of info from a person in the know who stated the MBH had their butts kicked big time on the disability issue at today's NRC meeting in Lansing. Checking it out as we speak...Film at 11!


Now that is some excellent news...........:coolgleam

[Liv4Huntin']

People never cease to amaze me, if folks feel they need a "bow" used by the disabled so they can feel like a bowhunter, go ahead, just do it in Ohio.



It's condescending remarks like these that make you lose credibility and respect among Michigan outdoorsmen and outdoorswomen. Makes a lot of sense to 'send ' Michigan hunters across state lines! (in your mind, it seems by your post.!) Keep digging...... the holes getting deeper. :rolleyes:
~ m ~

[M1Garand]

No I would not agree. What are you basing that assumption on? If you look at the popularity of bowhunting in Michigan, from 1938 when the first season was enacted until the mid to late 80's, when compounds hit the mainstream, bow hunter numbers remained a fraction of what they are today. I think it's a reasonable assumption to think that if compounds were made illegal that bowhunter numbers in Michigan would drop by about 80%.



In 1967, the year the compound was invented, there were 2,650 archery killed deer in MI. The kill numbers for archery stayed under 10,000 until 1976 when the kill number hit 10,365. The following year it more than doubled and shot to 21,250. If I remember correctly, this was right around when compounds were really starting to get popular (some of you oldtimers correct me if I'm wrong :D). Fourteen years later in 1991, almost 116,000 were killed in archery season. Since '94, the archery kill has been fairly consistent in the 100K's (averaging almost 130K per year). So it seems compounds had a huge impact on the current popularity of archery hunting....their ease of use as compared to a recurve or longbow was the key factor in this popularity. So IMHO, anyone using a compound really doesn't have a leg to stand on in their opposition of crossbows. It's a variation of a bow...just like a compound was a variation. Any argument against it...it's been said (and more) by recurve hunters when they were becoming popular. I still remember going to the archery deer camps in the late 70's/early 80's with dad and his friends and their hoopla about the compounds...

[M1Garand]

People never cease to amaze me, if folks feel they need a "bow" used by the disabled so they can feel like a bowhunter, go ahead, just do it in Ohio.

You have your agenda and I have mine. It's too bad some folks beat around the bush about it.

Swamp, I make no qualms for the fact I support crossbows for everyone if they so choose. Here's an actual scenario for you:

My dad is in his 70s. He started bowhunting in the late 40's. His first buck was in 1953 with a recurve and cedar arrow (check my pics, the little 4-pt). I recently took a bow of mine over to his place that had a draw of about 55 lbs. He couldn't pull it back. While he is in very good health, his strength is fading fairly fast. At one point he will no longer be able to pull a bow back at all. At the same time, if the rest of his health remains constant, he will not be classified as any level of disability. So should he kiss archery season goodbye? One that he has participated in since the late 40s? While I truly don't know his stance on xbows, I would like to think no....he could still have an option to hunt it.

[marty]

I never said they killed in a diffrent way...its the manner of sending the broadhead that is diffrent
You still stuck on that broadhead thing..jeez guess that's about all ya have :sad:..

Fact is even though a 22 and 12 ga both shoot lead they are different...same reason my aunt isn't my uncle

Aluminum?...and I'm the one who hasn't picked up an archery magazine in 10 yrs:rolleyes:

Just like last time, fact is I have shot crossbows...and there is a big difference.. so:lol:
..fact is they are easier....

You have a great argument though...maybe we could use it to legalize rifles during muzzleloader season... since they both throw lead and kill the same way:dizzy:
Once again its been ,real, but I am no longer able to stay at your level of in-genius...

Happy Hunting my friend
And I still wish you were able to use your bow

fact is xbows use the same broadheads as any other bow
also crossbow use plastic fletch as well as still even in this day and age yes we still use aluminum although I perfer carbon:D

Crossbow still takes practice and there's no promise that it's any easier
Good luck hunting and I hope you never need the crossbow.....m

[tjstebb]

In 1967, the year the compound was invented, there were 2,650 archery killed deer in MI. The kill numbers for archery stayed under 10,000 until 1976 when the kill number hit 10,365. The following year it more than doubled and shot to 21,250. If I remember correctly, this was right around when compounds were really starting to get popular (some of you oldtimers correct me if I'm wrong :D). Fourteen years later in 1991, almost 116,000 were killed in archery season. Since '94, the archery kill has been fairly consistent in the 100K's (averaging almost 130K per year). So it seems compounds had a huge impact on the current popularity of archery hunting....their ease of use as compared to a recurve or longbow was the key factor in this popularity. So IMHO, anyone using a compound really doesn't have a leg to stand on in their opposition of crossbows. It's a variation of a bow...just like a compound was a variation. Any argument against it...it's been said (and more) by recurve hunters when they were becoming popular. I still remember going to the archery deer camps in the late 70's/early 80's with dad and his friends and their hoopla about the compounds...


:yeahthat:

[Swamp Ghost]

In 1967, the year the compound was invented, there were 2,650 archery killed deer in MI. The kill numbers for archery stayed under 10,000 until 1976 when the kill number hit 10,365. The following year it more than doubled and shot to 21,250. If I remember correctly, this was right around when compounds were really starting to get popular (some of you oldtimers correct me if I'm wrong :D). Fourteen years later in 1991, almost 116,000 were killed in archery season. Since '94, the archery kill has been fairly consistent in the 100K's (averaging almost 130K per year). So it seems compounds had a huge impact on the current popularity of archery hunting....their ease of use as compared to a recurve or longbow was the key factor in this popularity. So IMHO, anyone using a compound really doesn't have a leg to stand on in their opposition of crossbows. It's a variation of a bow...just like a compound was a variation. Any argument against it...it's been said (and more) by recurve hunters when they were becoming popular. I still remember going to the archery deer camps in the late 70's/early 80's with dad and his friends and their hoopla about the compounds...

Deer populations increased around the same time. There is no doubt the compound has increased participation in the bowseason, but so did MI's exploding deer herd as did baiting :evilsmile.

There are a myriad of reasons for the increased participation in bowseason, and all this was accomplished without the crossbow, imagine that.

A crossbow is a variation of a compound?

The compound is the evolution of stick and string bows.

The modern crossbow is the evolution of ......the crossbow.

The "compounds are cheating, so I should be allowed to cheat even more with my crossbow" argument is totally irrational.

[Swamp Ghost]

I empathize with the elderly hunter, I have an elderly neighbor that has gone hunting with me a number of times. It has gotten to the point that he can no longer hunt with a bow or even a gun due to arthritis.

He put it the best the other day when I asked if he was going to accompany me this year on some hunts. He said, "Unless they are going to let me hunt with a land mine, my hunting days are over" I said, "If they made them legal, would you go?" He said, "Nah, but I am sure some guys would"

We both laughed and continued to drink our beers.

He has accepted that his hunting days are over as will I when it happens.

[tjstebb]

The "compounds are cheating, so I should be allowed to cheat even more with my crossbow" argument is totally irrational.

I don't think cheating is the word you are looking for? it think MODERN TECHNOLOGY.....fits better:evil:

i think we should all just give up and go back 20 years and use all that old technology.....so if anyone wants to debate this with me any further......
SEND ME A LETTER IN THE MAIL!!!
tjstebb

[Swamp Ghost]

I don't think cheating is the word you are looking for? it think MODERN TECHNOLOGY.....fits better:evil:

i think we should all just give up and go back 20 years and use all that old technology.....so if anyone wants to debate this with me any further......
SEND ME A LETTER IN THE MAIL!!!
tjstebb


Separate season for traditional gear, anyone? I would be all for it....

[MERGANZER]

I bet we could recruit more people in bow season if we allowed flame throwers too but yeah I am opposed to that idea as well.:dizzy:

Ganzer

[tjstebb]

Separate season for traditional gear, anyone? I would be all for it....
ya know the only problem i see with this seperate seasons is: there is only 6 weeks before gun season dedicated to bow season....if they where to open a seperate season for xbows and traditional then our beloved compound season would probably get cut to just a couple weeks....now which couple weeks would you like? i don't see seaperate seasons being any good for any of the bow hunters!

i really think that the only one that wins if they seperate the seasons are the cossbow manufactures....because i bet there would be a few compound hunters that would buy a crossbow just to be in the woods longer on top of all the new crossbow hunters that can't shoot compounds now!

so IF they where to cut into the bow season we would lose time in the woods and the crossbow manufactures wood gain even more customers!
so tell me how this benefits us and why i should care who has the advantage?
tjstebb

[Liv4Huntin']

I empathize with the elderly hunter, I have an elderly neighbor that has gone hunting with me a number of times. It has gotten to the point that he can no longer hunt with a bow or even a gun due to arthritis.

He put it the best the other day when I asked if he was going to accompany me this year on some hunts. He said, "Unless they are going to let me hunt with a land mine, my hunting days are over" I said, "If they made them legal, would you go?" He said, "Nah, but I am sure some guys would"

We both laughed and continued to drink our beers.

He has accepted that his hunting days are over as will I when it happens.

BUT, you see, THAT IS HIS CHOICE !!! Why can you NOT give this choice to other hunters that would CHOOSE TO USE A CROSSBOW IN ARCHERY SEASON?????? Open your mind to that question just once.
~ m ~

[M1Garand]

Deer populations increased around the same time. There is no doubt the compound has increased participation in the bowseason, but so did MI's exploding deer herd as did baiting :evilsmile.

There are a myriad of reasons for the increased participation in bowseason, and all this was accomplished without the crossbow, imagine that.

A crossbow is a variation of a compound?

The compound is the evolution of stick and string bows.

The modern crossbow is the evolution of ......the crossbow.

The "compounds are cheating, so I should be allowed to cheat even more with my crossbow" argument is totally irrational.

Baiting has always been legal in MI. Usage in the 70's was virtually non existent. At least when I went with dad and friends, they never did and I never recall seeing anyone else doing it. But it did contribute later, I'm sure. Some studies show as a 20% higher success rate in one I saw.

The deer population had exploded long before the 1970s. In 1937 it was estimated at about 1.1 million. In the late 40's, it was at 1.5 million. They then started with antlerless hunts. The 1971 target population goal was 1 million. So in the 70's it was over 1 million already so I don't think population was a factor as much a combo of compounds and also in 1975, treestands. I think not long after is when baiting really took of and became more popular.

I know next to nothing about crossbows but I will say the ones I see look like a compound turned sideways and mounted on a stock ;)

And who said they were cheating? I really have no qualms about what someone decides to use (within reason of course everyone throwing out everything short of nuclear weapons :lol:),

I guess my personal view is it's not up to me to tell someone what they wish to hunt with as long as they can cleanly take a deer. Freedom of choice is a beautiful thing.

[M1Garand]

I empathize with the elderly hunter, I have an elderly neighbor that has gone hunting with me a number of times. It has gotten to the point that he can no longer hunt with a bow or even a gun due to arthritis.

He put it the best the other day when I asked if he was going to accompany me this year on some hunts. He said, "Unless they are going to let me hunt with a land mine, my hunting days are over" I said, "If they made them legal, would you go?" He said, "Nah, but I am sure some guys would"

We both laughed and continued to drink our beers.

He has accepted that his hunting days are over as will I when it happens.

Swamp I have to agree with Livin4Huntin...that's your friends choice to give it up. Many others would love to continue. Part of the DNR's job they claim is to "manage for the recreational value". I bet there's a lot of older hunters who are in great shape and would love to hunt in archery season but due to strength limitations, they can't, failing strength doesn't permit that. Who am I or we to tell them they can no longer hunt if they would choose to?

[Swamp Ghost]

And there alot of able bodied "hunters" that love to make 1,000,000 excuses and comparisons to use one.

Luckily the vast majority of agencies see through their B.S, understand fair chase and see the recreational value and reasoning behind lesser weapon seasons.

As does my elderly neighbor.

My neighbor also understands that it wasn't his choice to get arthritis and lose much of his strength.

Good luck in your pursuits of choice, you may not like the results.

[NoWake]

And there alot of able bodied "hunters" that love to make 1,000,000 excuses and comparisons to use one.

Luckily the vast majority of agencies see through their B.S, understand fair chase and see the recreational value and reasoning behind lesser weapon seasons.

As does my elderly neighbor.

My neighbor also understands that it wasn't his choice to get arthritis and lose much of his strength.

Good luck in your pursuits of choice, you may not like the results.

I don't think assuming too much is a good idea, so for clarification purposes for those following this thread, why did you choose to put the word hunters in quotes? Also what does fair chase have to do with this topic?

[tjstebb]

first i have heard of this being a fair chase issue????:dizzy:
tjstebb

[tdduckman]

And there alot of able bodied "hunters" that love to make 1,000,000 excuses and comparisons to use one.

Luckily the vast majority of agencies see through their B.S, understand fair chase and see the recreational value and reasoning behind lesser weapon seasons.

As does my elderly neighbor.

My neighbor also understands that it wasn't his choice to get arthritis and lose much of his strength.

Good luck in your pursuits of choice, you may not like the results.



I am a landowner who would rather be duck or bird hunting then bow hunting so I only gun hunt.

I will tell you this I allow some bowhunters on my land, but I think I will be pulling that priviledge.


I know one thing for sure any bow hunter who is a MBH member just lost his hunting on my ground.


Short of fly fishermen on Ausable I have never seem a bigger group of elitests


TD

[Swamp Ghost]

first i have heard of this being a fair chase issue????:dizzy:
tjstebb

I empathize with the elderly hunter, I have an elderly neighbor that has gone hunting with me a number of times. It has gotten to the point that he can no longer hunt with a bow or even a gun due to arthritis.

He put it the best the other day when I asked if he was going to accompany me this year on some hunts. He said, "Unless they are going to let me hunt with a land mine, my hunting days are over" I said, "If they made them legal, would you go?" He said, "Nah, but I am sure some guys would"



I don't wish to turn this into a "fair chase" topic. Some understand it and some twist it.

[Swamp Ghost]

I am a landowner who would rather be duck or bird hunting then bow hunting so I only gun hunt.

I will tell you this I allow some bowhunters on my land, but I think I will be pulling that priviledge.


I know one thing for sure any bow hunter who is a MBH member just lost his hunting on my ground.


Short of fly fishermen on Ausable I have never seem a bigger group of elitests


TD

LOL! Your a landowner. That's your right.

The DNR views private land and it's owners as it's biggest obstacle to herd management.

Some view landowners as elitists, doesn't mean it's true.

[Swamp Ghost]

I don't think assuming too much is a good idea, so for clarification purposes for those following this thread, why did you choose to put the word hunters in quotes? Also what does fair chase have to do with this topic?

I've made posts about it before, feel free to find them.

[NoWake]

I've made posts about it before, feel free to find them.

Took your advice and tried to find them. The method I used was as follows: I used the search function of this website, went to advanced search, then searched posts by user Swamp Ghost containing the word chase. It didn't turn up anything related to crossbows other than this thread.

I also looked for an explanation on why you chose to put the word hunter in quotes, but that turned up nothing.

I'm not very smart but I think the method I used should be pretty sound. Oh well I was just asking for clarification as not to make any false assumptions.

[Munsterlndr]

Wow Swamp, a condescending attitude towards other hunters simply becasue they would like to use other weapons, the attitude that older hunters should just "get over it" and quit hunting when they could have another 20 years of enjoying their sport and recreating, taking pleasure in the continuing decline of archery hunters because at least the ones that are left are "real hunters", and now blaming private land owners for the herd overpopulation problems in Michigan. Is there any group of sportsman other than your little clique of archers that you don't view with disdain? :rolleyes:

[Swamp Ghost]

Wow Munster! Overreact much? Talk about interpretory latitude.

[costanza]

The fact is that crossbows are easier to draw(in advance, with no holding at full draw),sight (like a rifle)and shoot (pull the trigger)than a bow of any type. I have no real bias either for or against allowing their use during the archery season, but they are not the same as a bow. Once sighted in and cocked, a crossbow has more in common with a rifle or slug gun than a bow. They will not guarantee that you get a deer.

[Swamp Ghost]

Took your advice and tried to find them. The method I used was as follows: I used the search function of this website, went to advanced search, then searched posts by user Swamp Ghost containing the word chase. It didn't turn up anything related to crossbows other than this thread.

I also looked for an explanation on why you chose to put the word hunter in quotes, but that turned up nothing.

I'm not very smart but I think the method I used should be pretty sound. Oh well I was just asking for clarification as not to make any false assumptions.



The fact is the crossbow doesn't bring hunters together, doesn't recruit new hunters, doesn't retain hunters, doesn't help with deer herd management.

I see a whole lots of folks talk about how technology and how it's made bowhunting so "easy".

If it's so easy, why in the world would anyone want to use a crossbow?

Could it be that some are trying the circumvent even the compounds "ease of use"?

Talk about anti-hunter ammo.

Don't concern yourself with anti-hunters who make up maybe, what 5-10% of the population.

Hunters should be concerned with how they look towards people that don't hunt. They make up close to 80% of the population and close to 90% of the population support hunting.

If you are worried about perception being reality look no further than the recent dove bill. Then look into how the population that supports hunting negatively views the crossbow. The same public that holds hunters using a bow in high regard, thats the reality you are faced with.

Some hunter's feel that everyone is welcome in the woods hunting as long as it's legal. Even though some method or equipment might be viewed as distasteful, controversial, or unpopular, we all need to be united as hunters to defend hunting from antihunters.

I feel the future of hunting is best protected by policing our own ranks, eliminating the questionable practices and equipment that makes hunting look bad and erode public support. I feel this is important because I feel that non-hunters will ultimately determine the fate of our sport at the voting booth, not hunters vs anti-hunters arguing, so maintaining and building public support for hunting is essential.

While you guys rant that any restriction of "choice" is a "concession" to or ammo for antihunting, we are losing the battle that matters.

We may very well lose the majority of the non-hunters that currently support hunting because they feel it is an honorable tradition.



Non-hunters have a very negative view of "unfair advantage" against a game animal and of crossbows.

Like I said, good luck in your pursuit of choice. You may not like the results. Your choice of hobbies may just get shorter.

There are hunters and people that hunt. When I use "hunters" I am referring to people that hunt. They don't care about weapon, method or when they hunt as long as they can get the particular animal they are after in the cooler as fast as possible.

Most of the people that hunt don't care about tradition or how their actions affect the image of hunting. If hunting was banned they would simply pick another hobby.

[NoWake]

Non-hunters have a very negative view of "unfair advantage" against a game animal and of crossbows.

How would the non-hunting public see it as an unfair advantage, there is already a firearm season, which is clearly a big advantage and they don't seem to mind. Chances are they won't give a rip one way or the other. If anything they will probably see it as having a better chance at a quick humane kill.





Like I said, good luck in your pursuit of choice. You may not like the results. Your choice of hobbies may just get shorter.

I am not in pursuit of anything on this issue. This is going to be hard for you to grasp, but I really do not have any desire to trade my old compound for a crossbow. I just happen to see the pro's outweighing the cons if there were an opportunity for someone to hunt with a crossbow other than in the regular firearm season.

There are hunters and people that hunt. When I use "hunters" I am referring to people that hunt. They don't care about weapon, method or when they hunt as long as they can get the particular animal they are after in the cooler as fast as possible.

So anyone and everyone who approves of crossbow expansion only care about getting the animal killed and in the cooler as fast as possible with any method. Brilliant, you sure do think alot of yourself and your longbow bretheren.

Most of the people that hunt don't care about tradition or how their actions affect the image of hunting. If hunting was banned they would simply pick another hobby.

Since earlier you suggested that my choice of hobbies may get shorter, your saying that I do not care about tradition or how my actions affect the image of hunting. Another brilliant remark. Why is it you cannot discuss this issue without all of these wild ass factless claims and accusations?

[marty]

Once sighted in and cocked, a crossbow has more in common with a rifle or slug gun than a bow. They will not guarantee that you get a deer.


This is not true if a deer is out 100 yards my 270 will put it down. With my xbow all I can do is watch. They are no where near the power of a rifle or a slug gun. shoot a xbow and a rifle side by side:D

[Moonkryket]

Bickering :rant: over how a crossbow is not a "regular" bow while states, one after another, are legalizing crossbows for archery season. Bowhunters in quite a few states are now choosing long BOW, recurve BOW, compound BOW or cross BOW to hunt during archery seasons with absolutely no negative affect to any ONE of them. IMHO, I've yet to see a logical reason for not allowing crossbows to be used by those that choose to do so. The key word here is "logical". There are many logical reasons for legalizing them but selfishness and elitist attitudes surely have a way of blinding some folks.

[Munsterlndr]

The fact is that crossbows are easier to draw(in advance, with no holding at full draw),sight (like a rifle)and shoot (pull the trigger)than a bow of any type. If you really don't have a dog in this fight and are trying to be unbiased you might want to preface your remarks by saying "in some cases". I can give you examples for each of your scenarios where a vertical bow can be easier to use than a crossbow.

Drawing. Yes, crossbows are pre-drawn, at least for the first shot. Have you ever gotten off a second shot at a deer when hunting with a vertical bow? It happens all of the time. But drawing the crossbow for a second shot is very unlikely to happen in the presence of game. So in that scenario, drawing a vertical bow (for a follow up shot) would certainly be easier.

Sighting. Not all crossbows use scopes and many that do, use conventional scopes. If you were comparing a vertical bow that was mounted with a red dot compared to a crossbow using a conventional scope, which would be easier to aim? I would have to say the red dot. Lot's of vertical bow hunters are moving to red dots for this very reason. Thus, in some cases a crossbow could be easier to sight and in others a vertical bow could be.

Pull the trigger. With the overwhelming majority of compound bow shooters using trigger releases, I fail to see where either has a substantive advantage when it comes to pulling a trigger. Seems like a wash to me.

Other considerations. Here is another example of where a crossbow can pose problems that you don't run into with a vertical bow. Ever been hunting in tree stand and have a deer come up behind you. You stand up and slowly turn around and with a vertical bow you will get about a 340 degree field of fire, the other 20 degrees being physically blocked by the tree. Now try that with a crossbow that has limbs sticking out horizontally 18" on either side. Your field of fire is limited to about 280 degrees, as there is an area on both sides of the tree trunk that you are going to run into the tree with the crossbow limbs if you try and get a shot. Clear advantage in terms of field of fire to the vertical bow user.


I have no real bias either for or against allowing their use during the archery season, but they are not the same as a bow. Once sighted in and cocked, a crossbow has more in common with a rifle or slug gun than a bow. They will not guarantee that you get a deer.

That depends entirely on whether you are talking about appearance or function. In appearance they may resemble a firearm but in function both a crossbow and a vertical bow are firing similar blade tipped projectiles, at similar speeds and are limited by the same laws of physics, in terms of effective range, penetration and killing ability.

In those terms, comparing crossbows to firearms, it is not even a close comparison. Let me put it his way; if you had to come to a duel where you were going to be shooting at your opponent at 30 yards would you choose to bring A) a vertical bow B) a crossbow or C) a twelve gauge loaded with double ought buck?

I think anyone who answers this question honestly would agree that a 12 GA would be the weapon of choice for 99% of the respondents. The second choice would probably be a vertical bow because if you missed with the first shot, at least you might have a chance to get off a second shot, which would certainly not be the case with a crossbow. Not that I'm advocating dueling (;)) but this example is illustrative of the the functional and practical differences between the three types of weapons.

And finally, I'd agree, regardless of the type of weapon you use, you are not guaranteed a deer. That's why it's called hunting, not killing. :)

[Swamp Ghost]

Round and round it goes :lol:

[Whit1]

Bickering :rant: over how a crossbow is not a "regular" bow while states, one after another, are legalizing crossbows for archery season. Bowhunters in quite a few states are now choosing long BOW, recurve BOW, compound BOW or cross BOW to hunt during archery seasons with absolutely no negative affect to any ONE of them. IMHO, I've yet to see a logical reason for not allowing crossbows to be used by those that choose to do so. The key word here is "logical". There are many logical reasons for legalizing them but selfishness and elitist attitudes surely have a way of blinding some folks.


Today Louisiana's govenor signed a crossbow inclusion bill so you can add another state to the list.

On another note "Ohio's 2007-08 vertical bow harvest is the 8th consecutive record vertical bow harvest. Yes, crossbow hunters still account for 55%-57% of the archery harvest. However, they are not setting records every year!"

This latter news item is direct from Mike Tonkovich of the Ohio DNR.

Another comment from Mike: "To my knowledge, no state has ever banned crossbows after legalizing them. And while this would certainly take some homework on the part of someone like yourself – I would bet that no state has ever retreated on the crossbow regulations once legalized. My guess is that like Ohio, regulations are progressively liberalized once the first and biggest hurdle is cleared. Eventually, like Ohio, hunters accept the crossbow and the agency responds accordingly by expanding opportunities."

[wally-eye]

Round and round it goes :lol:


No it goes straight as an arrow off a "string"...........

[tjstebb]

[quote=Swamp Ghost;2150851]Non-hunters have a very negative view of "unfair advantage" against a game animal and of crossbows.
what?:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

[quote=Swamp Ghost;2150851]Non-hunters have a very negative view of "unfair advantage" against a game animal and of crossbows.
what?:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

You should probably do a little research on perception.

[tjstebb]

i would think that non-hunters first off have some negative views on ANY hunting method......

second i would bet that 95% of the non-hunters don't know the advantages of one weapon over another anyway! And further more i would bet that if someone against crossbows where to talk to a non-hunter that they would indeed be against crossbows BUT, i would almost bet that if the same non-hunter was talked to by someone that is pro crossbow they would agree that the humane kill is the important thing not wether you bow is vertical or horizontal! (of course we are talking about a non-hunter and not a anti-hunter:D)
tjstebb

[Steve]

The fact is that crossbows are easier to draw(in advance, with no holding at full draw),sight (like a rifle)and shoot (pull the trigger)than a bow of any type. I have no real bias either for or against allowing their use during the archery season, but they are not the same as a bow. Once sighted in and cocked, a crossbow has more in common with a rifle or slug gun than a bow. They will not guarantee that you get a deer.

That about sums it up for me. Let's decide where to put this weapon in the season but please don't tell me it is the same as a bow which you have to hold at full draw. I don't think even the best and most in shape archers can hold a bow at full draw for more than a few minutes.

[Riva]

The fact is that crossbows are easier to draw(in advance, with no holding at full draw),sight (like a rifle)and shoot (pull the trigger)than a bow of any type. I have no real bias either for or against allowing their use during the archery season, but they are not the same as a bow. Once sighted in and cocked, a crossbow has more in common with a rifle or slug gun than a bow. They will not guarantee that you get a deer.

I would respectfully disagree with a few of your statements...

I have hunted and taken dozens of deer with both compound bows as well as with a crossbow. My disability now forces me to use a crossbow exclusively.

A crossbow is a lunky tool and, unlike a rifle or shotgun that his evenly balanced, a crossbow is profoundly front-end heavy. It takes a certain amount of physical dexterity to hold a front-end heavy crossbow, even for an able-bodied person. Yes, it is cocked, but it is not necessarily easier to "hold". To be fair, I will say that it is "different" but, it is not, as you say, easier.

Actually, I would say that sighting in on the target is easier for a long or compound bow using pins, than it is for a scoped crossbow. Again, this comes from my own person experience. In fact, it is one of the things that initially pizzed me off about crossbows.

With pins, the target is always in full sight of the user--even during the draw. With a scoped crossbow, you must find the animal in the scope. While not a huge task however: oftentimes this must be done at very a short range--anywhere from say, 5 yards out to 40. I use a 1 power scope and, I can't tell you how many times I have been busted moving around trying to find the deer in my scope and/or peeking over the scope simply to get my "bearings". This situation is then exacerbated by having to hold the front-end heavy crossbow while trying to lock in on the target--a target that we all know, has a very keen interest in staying alive! I will say this, it is not easier, better stated it has its own unique challenges.

As for being closer to a rifle or shotgun... archery equipment is capable of effectively killing within a short range, approximately 50 yards, Most ethical archery hunters stay well within that range but there are some proficient beyond 50. Most are not though, including crossbow users.

And, as for firearms, a gun kills by concussion and destruction of tissue and bone. An arrow kills by hemorrhage. A bullet is propelled by an explosion of gunpowder within a small chamber (bullet/shell).

A broad head is a razor that is attached to the end of an arrow flung by a string.

A bullet/slug travels at thousands of feet per second. An arrow travels at hundreds of feet per second.

A bullet/slug can be effective beyond 50 yards. Archery is effective within 50 yards (or less).

I am happy to see that you have no real bias towards crossbows, pro or con. Regrettably, there is a clamorous minority that does; not so much by the obvious facts that I have just conveyed, but because they believe that they are upholding some "cherished tradition". Well, cherished traditions are one thing. Facts, hard data, logic, common sense and, opportunity for more to participate are quite another. Since you appear to be somewhat on the fence regarding these matters, allow me to take this opportunity to invite you to the enlightened side. You'll find the people over here, much more ..well, let's just say "enlightened" :)

[Swamp Ghost]

I would respectfully disagree with a few of your statements...

I have hunted and taken dozens of deer with both compound bows as well as with a crossbow. My disability now forces me to use a crossbow exclusively.

A crossbow is a lunky tool and, unlike a rifle or shotgun that his evenly balanced, a crossbow is profoundly front-end heavy. It takes a certain amount of physical dexterity to hold a front-end heavy crossbow, even for an able-bodied person. Yes, it is cocked, but it is not necessarily easier to "hold". To be fair, I will say that it is "different" but, it is not, as you say, easier.

Actually, I would say that sighting in on the target is easier for a long or compound bow using pins, than it is for a scoped crossbow. Again, this comes from my own person experience. In fact, it is one of the things that initially pizzed me off about crossbows.

With pins, the target is always in full sight of the user--even during the draw. With a scoped crossbow, you must find the animal in the scope. While not a huge task however: oftentimes this must be done at very a short range--anywhere from say, 5 yards out to 40. I use a 1 power scope and, I can't tell you how many times I have been busted moving around trying to find the deer in my scope and/or peeking over the scope simply to get my "bearings". This situation is then exacerbated by having to hold the front-end heavy crossbow while trying to lock in on the target--a target that we all know, has a very keen interest in staying alive! I will say this, it is not easier, better stated it has its own unique challenges.

As for being closer to a rifle or shotgun... archery equipment is capable of effectively killing within a short range, approximately 50 yards, Most ethical archery hunters stay well within that range but there are some proficient beyond 50. Most are not though, including crossbow users.

And, as for firearms, a gun kills by concussion and destruction of tissue and bone. An arrow kills by hemorrhage. A bullet is propelled by an explosion of gunpowder within a small chamber (bullet/shell).

A broad head is a razor that is attached to the end of an arrow flung by a string.

A bullet/slug travels at thousands of feet per second. An arrow travels at hundreds of feet per second.

A bullet/slug can be effective beyond 50 yards. Archery is effective within 50 yards (or less).

I am happy to see that you have no real bias towards crossbows, pro or con. Regrettably, there is a clamorous minority that does; not so much by the obvious facts that I have just conveyed, but because they believe that they are upholding some "cherished tradition". Well, cherished traditions are one thing. Facts, hard data, logic, common sense and, opportunity for more to participate are quite another. Since you appear to be somewhat on the fence regarding these matters, allow me to take this opportunity to invite you to the enlightened side. You'll find the people over here, much more ..well, let's just say "enlightened" :)

Clamorous minority? :lol:

Are you describing crossbow guys that believe a crossbow is the same or "similar" to a bow?

Most would call that a fool's game.

[Riva]

Clamorous minority? :lol:

Are you describing crossbow guys that believe a crossbow is the same or "similar" to a bow?

Most would call that a fool's game.

Frankly, I am simply tired out of trying to keep all the (presumably) incestuous "Swamp" family member hierarchy in one place. Swamp this and, Swamp that. It appears that the common denominator between any/all "swamp" members = they fail to see the simple, predictable, inevitable, failures an overly-charged, virile youth, not understanding that their day will soon come.

Too bad. So sad. ,:mad:

[swampbuck]

maybe I should change my name. :lol:

[Riva]

maybe I should change my name. :lol:

Your family hasn't been too receptive to any other sort of change;)

[Swamp Ghost]

We have no problem with change, just with shell games.

[Ferg]

ok let stick with the subject at hand please - what someones family may or may not do has no place here -

ferg....

[Swamp Ghost]

ok let stick with the subject at hand please - what someones family may or may not do has no place here -

ferg....

It was either that or stick with his "Klan" insinuation.:lol:

[Thunderhead]

[QUOTE=Riva;2152393]
I have hunted and taken dozens of deer with both compound bows as well as with a crossbow. My disability now forces me to use a crossbow exclusively.

I'd love to see some pics of one or any of these " dozens " of deer you have killed.

[michigandeerslayer]

[quote=Riva;2152393]
I have hunted and taken dozens of deer with both compound bows as well as with a crossbow. My disability now forces me to use a crossbow exclusively.

I'd love to see some pics of one or any of these " dozens " of deer you have killed.

I have seen a dozen deer once:D

[Joe Archer]

i just dont understand why it is so shameful to use a crossbow if it improves your ability and confidence in shooting and making a human kill!

But hey, no one ever accused me of being intelligent anyway...
Are you certain that cross bows will reduce the number of bad hits in hunting situation? Is there anything published on shot: kill ratios with compounds VS crossbows? From my experience with them, I would predict a learning curve with most hunters vastly over estimating the ability of a crossbow. Someone said both have an effective range of 40 yards. I would disagree and say for the average Joe, the effective range of compounds AND crossbows should be 20 - 25 yards.
In any case, to those of us who currently use a compound; crossbow hunting will never be "bow hunting". For what is worth, it will at best be "crossbow" hunting.
<----<<<

[tjstebb]

But hey, no one ever accused me of being intelligent anyway...
Are you certain that cross bows will reduce the number of bad hits in hunting situation? Is there anything published on shot: kill ratios with compounds VS crossbows? From my experience with them, I would predict a learning curve with most hunters vastly over estimating the ability of a crossbow. Someone said both have an effective range of 40 yards. I would disagree and say for the average Joe, the effective range of compounds AND crossbows should be 20 - 25 yards.
In any case, to those of us who currently use a compound; crossbow hunting will never be "bow hunting". For what is worth, it will at best be "crossbow" hunting.
<----<<<
first off if you notice in my post it says "IF" it would help make a humane kill...

second i think effective range will differ and should be what you are comfortable and confident shooting consistently...........

And third you are right crossbow hunting will be crossbow hunting the same as compound bow hunting will never be "longbow hunting" at best it will be compound bow hunting!

i am a COMPOUND BOW hunter and have no plan to ever give it up for a crossbow, but i think i should be able to if I want too!
tjstebb

[sbooy42]

Hey TJstebb
I stopped by Zeroed In this weekend..pretty nice place..Think I'm going to get in on their 3d league stating the 17th...

[tjstebb]

Hey TJstebb
I stopped by Zeroed In this weekend..pretty nice place..Think I'm going to get in on their 3d league stating the 17th...
just sent ya pm!
tjstebb

[tjstebb]

i wonder if they would let me use a crossbow....that would make it SO much easier:D:D:D
just trying to keep this thread on subject, sorry but i could not resist,
tjstebb

[Whit1]

It is my understanding the South Carolina passed a crossbow inlcusion law last week and, along with Louisiana deer hunters, Gamecock State hunters will also have a choice of weaponry this upcoming fall.

[Liv4Huntin']

That about sums it up for me. Let's decide where to put this weapon in the season but please don't tell me it is the same as a bow which you have to hold at full draw. I don't think even the best and most in shape archers can hold a bow at full draw for more than a few minutes.

I respectfully submit, Steve, that we are not saying they are the 'same'... just as a long bow isn't the same as a compound. Long bows, recurve bows, compound bows, crossbows..... I have shot them all. The bottom line is they are all archery equipment, and therefore deserve to be in archery season.
Again, no disrespect meant...
~ m ~

[sbooy42]

i wonder if they would let me use a crossbow....that would make it SO much easier:D:D:D
just trying to keep this thread on subject, sorry but i could not resist,
tjstebb

HAHA... I almost said the same thing...

[tjstebb]

It is my understanding the South Carolina passed a crossbow inlcusion law last week and, along with Louisiana deer hunters, Gamecock State hunters will also have a choice of weaponry this upcoming fall.
AWSOME it just keeps getting closer and closer.....if we don't get crossbows legal soon michigan could be the only state without crossbows or jobs!
tjstebb

[whitetailbloodtrail]

Any chance we can agree on this inclusion as well? Looks kinda like a crossbow??? :D

http://www.ibbu.nl/~ibb101/Other/D/Ballista/Ballista.jpg

Wont have to worry about tracking a deer as they'll likely be pinned to the nearest tree

[tjstebb]

Any chance we can agree on this inclusion as well? Looks kinda like a crossbow??? :D

http://www.ibbu.nl/~ibb101/Other/D/Ballista/Ballista.jpg

Wont have to worry about tracking a deer as they'll likely be pinned to the nearest tree
NOPE ABSOULUTLY NOT........that there is for sure traditional archery and should have it own season!:lol:
tjstebb

[Thunderhead]

But I wanna hunt with my weapon of choice when I want to !!!!!!!

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :gaga::gaga:

[Munsterlndr]

Next thing you know Thunderhead is gonna try and keep footbows out of archery season, too! ;)

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc112/Munsterlndr/footbow.jpg

[MERGANZER]

As I have said before if you are disabled then by all means get a crossbow permit and the process should be easier to do so IF YOU ARE DISABLED. Otherwise, if you are able bodied, get out there and practice and get conditioned to pull and hold a bow! Its a great weopon go spend some time and become deadly with it as we have done for years.

A crossbow not easier to use????? cmon wake up and look at reality already. If the people who sit here and argue for crossbows would spend as much time practicing with a "bow" this would be a non issue.

Ganzer

[skipper34]

As I have said before if you are disabled then by all means get a crossbow permit and the process should be easier to do so IF YOU ARE DISABLED. Otherwise, if you are able bodied, get out there and practice and get conditioned to pull and hold a bow! Its a great weopon go spend some time and become deadly with it as we have done for years.

A crossbow not easier to use????? cmon wake up and look at reality already. If the people who sit here and argue for crossbows would spend as much time practicing with a "bow" this would be a non issue.

Ganzer

And just to add to this great piece of logic, all those able-bodied souls who are now using a high-powered rifle in the rifle zone of Michigan for deer season, get out there and get that muzzleloader tuned in and practice and get conditioned to shoot that smoke pole accurately and at long range. It's a great weapon go spend some time and become deadly with it as our forefathers have done for even more years.

[Munsterlndr]

As I have said before if you are disabled then by all means get a crossbow permit and the process should be easier to do so IF YOU ARE DISABLED. Otherwise, if you are able bodied, get out there and practice and get conditioned to pull and hold a bow! Its a great weopon go spend some time and become deadly with it as we have done for years.

A crossbow not easier to use????? cmon wake up and look at reality already. If the people who sit here and argue for crossbows would spend as much time practicing with a "bow" this would be a non issue.

Ganzer

And yet hundreds of thousands of able bodied hunters in this country enjoy using crossbows for deer hunting. I wonder if they would lose any sleep or suffer any degree of self doubt if they knew they were doing so without the Merganzer stamp of approval. I would bet that they probably could care less what type of weapon you choose to use Adam, it still strikes me as kind of funny that you would care what type they choose to use. :confused:

[Thunderhead]

A zillion different threads, and the same thing is said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.....................don't you guys get even a little bit sick of all this, no matter what camp your in ?


I'm all for footbows. ;)

[sbooy42]

And yet hundreds of thousands of able bodied hunters in this country enjoy using crossbows for deer hunting. I wonder if they would lose any sleep or suffer any degree of self doubt if they knew they were doing so without the Merganzer stamp of approval. I would bet that they probably could care less what type of weapon you choose to use Adam, it still strikes me as kind of funny that you would care what type they choose to use. :confused:
And yet thousands of able bodied hunters choose not to...

I'll be honest for me its more of a pride thing I guess..Call me an elitist but I take pride in being proficient with my bow and arrow and I work and practice through out the the off season to be successful when Oct 1 rolls around, just like many other bowhunters do....I feel it will a be swift kick in the rear the day an x-bow user calls himself a bowhunter....
IMO the greatest thing about a bow is how personal it is..to be proficient with the bow it has to be build around the shooter...draw length, peep location, draw weight, let off%. arrow length, anchor points, grip..etc....I love the fact that there are very few people who could pick up my bow and hit the same spot I do @40yards, let alone 60 yards... The same can not be said for an xbow rifle, shotgun...etc

[Steve]

I respectfully submit, Steve, that we are not saying they are the 'same'... just as a long bow isn't the same as a compound. Long bows, recurve bows, compound bows, crossbows..... I have shot them all. The bottom line is they are all archery equipment, and therefore deserve to be in archery season.
Again, no disrespect meant...
~ m ~

No disrespect taken. I'm not above reproach. If someone doesn't agree with me there's no reason to hold back ;)

[skipper34]

And yet thousands of able bodied hunters choose not to...

I'll be honest for me its more of a pride thing I guess..Call me an elitist but I take pride in being proficient with my bow and arrow and I work and practice through out the the off season to be successful when Oct 1 rolls around, just like many other bowhunters do....I feel it will a be swift kick in the rear the day an x-bow user calls himself a bowhunter....
IMO the greatest thing about a bow is how personal it is..to be proficient with the bow it has to be build around the shooter...draw length, peep location, draw weight, let off%. arrow length, anchor points, grip..etc....I love the fact that there are very few people who could pick up my bow and hit the same spot I do @40yards, let alone 60 yards... The same can not be said for an xbow rifle, shotgun...etc

This is about as pure a definition of an elitist as I have heard.

[swampbuck]

A zillion different threads, and the same thing is said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.....................don't you guys get even a little bit sick of all this, no matter what camp your in ?


I'm all for footbows. ;)

its about to change. :D

[sbooy42]

This is about as pure a definition of an elitist as I have heard.
Sorry..... but I will not be ashamed of taking pride in something I enjoy doing...If elitist means working hard to be better than some else at something so be it..