Information the crossbow crowd doesn't want you to know

[One Eye]

Here is a quote from a bowhunter in Louisiana.

Here's how the crossbow gets in your season.
1990 - the first year I'm back in Louisiana, I note a small article stating the crossbow is now legal with a handicap permit and for over 60. This is before we have a state bowhunting association and I call my Senator and Representative. The both stated there wasn't any opposition to it and both agreed it wasn't a bow.

Eighteen years later in 2008 - I just saw a news clip from Baton Rouge, LA saying we are only lacking the signature of the Gov. approving a bill legalizing the crossbow for anyone during the archery season. Some of the hunters interviewed were nearly dancing in the street over the possibilities.

That's the way it starts...with the handicap and aged used as a pawn of the manufacturers.

I'm 63 and can qualify for a handicap permit. The handicap permiting system is shamefully abused. All the State is concerned about is selling more licenses and more Federal funds.

I killed my first deer in Louisiana in 1979. We had 6 or so weeks of early season then. Last year in my zone we had a little over two weeks and both weekends were special state wide gun hunts for either handicap or youth. Anotherwards, we never had a weekend until mid January that we didn't have to share the woods with high powered rifles.

I've encountered a number of "handicapped" crossbow hunters on public land over the years and most were not handicapped in anyway that would prevent them from hunting with a "legal" bow in Louisiana.

At this point I could care less about the crossbow in Louisiana's "pitiful" archery seasons. I spend most of my time and money out of state as it is.

One more State archery only season down the tube. Think I'll retire and buy a farm in Iowa. The only thing that keeps me from doing it is our warm weather and Southern women. :)

Imagine that.
Dan

[boehr]

That is partly politics and secondly, the problem is what??????????

Yep, I'm for crossbows for everyone and no I don't have one, don't know anyone in the crossbow buisness, don't have any plans on using or buying one.:)

[wildcoy73]

One Eye;
So how does this effect crossbows? The artical sound like a dear control problem, and show that the archers have not been doing thier part in that state. From what a read crossbows had no effect on the special state wide gun and youth hunt. It would be nice for facts to be shown that would show crossbows are a bad thing. This article does not show that.

[leave it alone]

great thread just goes to show one implemation brings on more implemation and another and another when does it end poisonous dart season

[HUBBHUNTER]

That is partly politics and secondly, the problem is what??????????

Yep, I'm for crossbows for everyone and no I don't have one, don't know anyone in the crossbow buisness, don't have any plans on using or buying one.:)


:yeahthat:

[skipper34]

All the quote was, to me, is a disgruntled hunter who is crying that the crossbow is legal in Louisianna. Oh well. Not everyone is happy at all times, no matter what. My advice to that person would be to not worry about what weapon of choice someone is using. If it is not your choice, don't use it. Nobody is forcing anyone here. Isn't this the gist of the argument in the first place?

[MERGANZER]

I think we need to get as many people interested in hunting as possible as well so we should legalize crossbows across the board. We should also allow hunting from helicopters and airplanes as well as hot air balloons because there would be a lot of people interested in that. In addition, I want to poison my deer because then I don't have to sit in the cold I just check the bait stations once a day and claim my deer. But if we are going to be fair to all sportsmen we need to legalize snares and pitfalls as well I mean we wouldn't want to leave anyone out.

When does it end?????? Pick up a bow and learn how to be lethal with it and then enjoy the outdoors.......

Ganzer

[MERGANZER]

I fully expect crossbows to be legal within a few years if not earlier but I also think we are watering down the sport to the degree where nobody "learns" how to hunt anymore. Hunting shouldn't be about how easy we can make it. Its the challenges that make hunting so rewarding, if we take the challenge away what is left?

ganzer

[wildcoy73]

I fully expect crossbows to be legal within a few years if not earlier but I also think we are watering down the sport to the degree where nobody "learns" how to hunt anymore. Hunting shouldn't be about how easy we can make it. Its the challenges that make hunting so rewarding, if we take the challenge away what is left?

ganzer
where is a crossbow making hunting easier? The crossbow does not put deer in front of you, they don't shot deer for ya, so how is it easier? being easier is multi shots with a gun, lighted scopes and pins, shooting sticks, all the new powders, 209 primers in muzzel loader, electric ignition. Do we as hunters fight all these advances? What about trail cams.
With that crossbows will not make hunting easier still need to get the deer to within 30yards. Some hunters will never beable to do that.
What we need is to have a front and gather all the hunters we can. We need to show this state that the outdoors matter to us, so we can protect what we have left. At the rate we are going public hunting will no longer be with us in the near future. Plus only the rich will be able to afford to go. If this is what your after than keep up the fight, but if your after a future in this state than we all need to support the weapon of choice during archery season, just as the gun season have, gun season i can use a rifle, shotgun, smokepole, pistol,crossbow, or any archey device. Do they fight about this?NO. Plus the numbers show they also do the best job on harvesting the deer. Archery hunters in genral are about themselfes and this will hurt us in the long run as it already has. Early and late doe season and extended muzzel loader season. Every year or so the gun hunter gains more days afield, and that is because they stand together, while the archer fights amongst themselves.

[marty]

hunters better get this crap figured out pretty dam quick or some anti is going to be doing it for us:rant:

[Bmac]

hunters better get this crap figured out pretty dam quick or some anti is going to be doing it for us:rant:

To be honest, anti-hunter's aren't my biggest worry. I know where they stand and how they vote as do most of the non-hunting/hunting neutral people.

It is some of my fellow "sportsmen" who will stab a fellow hunter in the back for their own selfish reasons that I truly fear. When they attack fellow sportsmen the hunting neutral people can say that not even hunters support a particular issue. Do any of you anti crossbow folks remember the Dove vote results?

[Swamp Ghost]

Oh no! Not the "anti-hunter" strawman! :yikes:

Can he please be trotted out some more whenever their is a controversial/hottly debated topic between hunters.......

The fact is the crossbow doesn't bring hunters together, doesn't recruit new hunters, doesn't retain hunters, doesn't help with deer herd management.

I see a whole lots of folks talk about how technology and how it's made bowhunting so "easy".

If it's so easy, why in the world would anyone want to use a crossbow?

Could it be that some are trying the circumvent even the compounds "ease of use"?

Talk about anti-hunter ammo.

Don't concern yourself with anti-hunters who make up maybe, what 5-10% of the population.

Hunters should be concerned with how they look towards people that don't hunt. They make up close to 80% of the population and close to 90% of the population support hunting.

If you are worried about perception being reality look no further than the recent dove bill. Then look into how the population that supports hunting negatively views the crossbow. The same public that holds hunters using a bow in high regard, thats the reality you are faced with.

Some hunter's feel that everyone is welcome in the woods hunting as long as it's legal. Even though some method or equipment might be viewed as distasteful, controversial, or unpopular, we all need to be united as hunters to defend hunting from antihunters.

I feel the future of hunting is best protected by policing our own ranks, eliminating the questionable practices and equipment that makes hunting look bad and erode public support. I feel this is important because I feel that non-hunters will ultimately determine the fate of our sport at the voting booth, not hunters vs anti-hunters arguing, so maintaining and building public support for hunting is essential.

While you guys rant that any restriction of "choice" is a "concession" to or ammo for antihunting, we are losing the battle that matters.

We may very well lose the majority of the non-hunters that currently support hunting because they feel it is an honorable tradition.

Think about that the next time you want to throw out the anti-hunters BS.


Modern Bowhunting is so easy that we need another weapon, a weapon that 2:3 OH hunters choose to use a crossbow over a compound bow. That's right John Q. Public, it's not about advantage, it's about choice.

See this crossbow it's the same as a bow.

Good luck selling that.

Even the non-hunting public can see the difference, knows they are different and have a universally negative outlook on crossbow use.

I stand firm in the belief that the crossbow is a valid, effective hunting weapon and that anyone should be able to use one. Just not in MI's bowseason.


Gunhunters could care less what weapon is used in gunseason. Why? Because they are at the top of the deer managment food chain. If deer managers WANT to get something done they use the gun to do it.

IF, that's a BIG IF, the deer herd is ever brought into balance, see how quickly gun hunters mobilize to thwart a threat to their season. The mere mention of an antler restriction or a one buck rule whips these guys into a tizzy so fast your head would spin.

[skipper34]

I fully expect crossbows to be legal within a few years if not earlier but I also think we are watering down the sport to the degree where nobody "learns" how to hunt anymore. Hunting shouldn't be about how easy we can make it. Its the challenges that make hunting so rewarding, if we take the challenge away what is left?

ganzer

I agree, hunting shouldn't be how easy YOU can make it. It is the challenges TO YOU that make hunting so rewarding. I agree with everything in your post, but everyone is different and each has his or her own reasons for hunting. Some do not care about the skill or the challenge. We must learn to respect that some are different in this regard. Different does not mean wrong, just different.

[skipper34]

Gunhunters could care less what weapon is used in gunseason. Why? Because they are at the top of the deer managment food chain. If deer managers WANT to get something done they use the gun to do it.

IF, that's a BIG IF, the deer herd is ever brought into balance, see how quickly gun hunters mobilize to thwart a threat to their season. The mere mention of an antler restriction or a one buck rule whips these guys into a tizzy so fast your head would spin.

I am completely amazed that you know so much about everyone and everything. I really enjoy reading your posts for the mere knowledge that is gleaned.

[Whit1]

Imagine that.
Dan

Speaking of "Imagine that" Dan, what did you find out about the campaign contributions that Rep. Sheltrown received from crossbow interests? As I stated in that thread where you first threw down that gauntlet one does not have to use the FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) to find such things out. It is available on the secretary of state's homepage.

[kmtpr]

"Eighteen years later in 2008 - I just saw a news clip from Baton Rouge, LA saying we are only lacking the signature of the Gov. approving a bill legalizing the crossbow for anyone during the archery season. Some of the hunters interviewed were nearly dancing in the street over the possibilities."

Yup, sounds like they just rushed this right through :lol::lol:

[twodogsphil]

This guy didn't tell all of the facets of LA deer hunting -- both positive and negative. Like the 1 to 6-week use of dogs for deer hunting in 5 of the state's 8 dmu's. Or, on the other hand the 3 buck and 3 doe bag limits. Or the $500 and $3,000 Lifetime Hunting/Fishing Licenses for residents and non-residents, respectively.

[doublell]

Yep I always look to Louisana as the lead source for making all my decisions.:dizzy::lol:

[awshucks]

Yep I always look to Louisana as the lead source for making all my decisions.:dizzy::lol:

Yuppir, the entire xbow movement grinds to a halt based on the opinion of one La bowhunter, lol. This thread reminds me of a quote from the 1500's by Erasmus: "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king". :dizzy:

[Liv4Huntin']

When I saw the originator of this, I almost didn't read it for 'fear' of wasting my time........ I'm glad I did, though. WHAT A HOOT!!! Got my laugh for the day. I just consider the source.......... :lol:

Oh.... didn't see much information in there, either.
~ m ~

[weatherby]

I agree 100%

That is partly politics and secondly, the problem is what??????????

Yep, I'm for crossbows for everyone and no I don't have one,

[Munsterlndr]

The mere mention of an antler restriction or a one buck rule whips these guys into a tizzy so fast your head would spin.

:lol::lol::lol:

Gunhunters? No Swamp, I think you have them confused with most of the guys over on that "other" board that you and One Eye frequent, you know the one made up of bow hunters who start pulling out their hair and gnashing their teeth (the few they have left, anyway) over the mere mention of antler restrictions or buck limits?

I see that your suggestion that MBH revisit the idea of OBR was met with a deafening silence. :lol:

You guys are in good company over there, I must say. :lol:

I did enjoy the rationalization that the President of MBH posted over there to justify his opposition to the Lindquist proposal.

"If every other buck has a "trophy" rack won't that take some of the thrill out of shooting a "big" buck?"

That thar is some right forward thinkin, that is! :lol:

[Riva]

:lol::lol::lol:

Gunhunters? No Swamp, I think you have them confused with most of the guys over on that "other" board that you and One Eye frequent, you know the one made up of bow hunters who start pulling out their hair and gnashing their teeth (the few they have left, anyway) over the mere mention of antler restrictions or buck limits?

I see that your suggestion that MBH revisit the idea of OBR was met with a deafening silence. :lol:

You guys are in good company over there, I must say. :lol:

I did enjoy the rationalization that the President of MBH posted over there to justify his opposition to the Lindquist proposal.

"If every other buck has a "trophy" rack won't that take some of the thrill out of shooting a "big" buck?"

That thar is some right forward thinkin, that is! :lol:


"Thrill in the kill"

"Cherished traditions"

"Exclude the disabled"

The more I read the rhetoric of this organization, the more I feel that I need to take a bath! To tell you the truth, I don't know how MI sportspersons have allowed this clamorous minority to drive MI"s archery agenda for as long as they have. Time for morally conscious people everywhere, sportspersons or not, to demand that the rank and file of the MBH to dismantle the hierarchy that is driving their self-serving, nefarious organization.

[MERGANZER]

I have not seen one person who wants to "exclude the disabled" and I am growing tired of the "sportsmen must unite or the anti's will take us down" mantra. Because you oppose crossbows does not make you anti hunting nor does it give them any fuel. And I was asked earlier about crossbows being easier to use than a regular bow and yes they are easier! How hard is it to see that? Multiple shots? cmon how often do you get multiple shots with a bow and yes I beleive you can get multiple shots with a crossbow it doesn't take 10 minutes to pull the string back. The fact is crossbows take less skill. The archery season should involve "some" skill otherwise use it in rifle season.

What will you want next?

Ganzer

[Roosevelt]

hunters better get this crap figured out pretty dam quick or some anti is going to be doing it for us:rant:

AMEN!

[Whit1]

And I was asked earlier about crossbows being easier to use than a regular bow and yes they are easier!

Ganzer

Adam, by "easier to use" (referrring to crossbows) do you only mean the ease of their use or do you mean that AND/OR that they will be more efficient in taking a deer thus, any easing of crossbows regs especially inclusion, would result in a threat to the deer herd because the weapon is too efficient?

"Easier to use" could point to one, the other, or both.

[Riva]

I have not seen one person who wants to "exclude the disabled" and I am growing tired of the "sportsmen must unite or the anti's will take us down" mantra.
Ganzer

Meganzer, you are not looking hard enough. If an person does not meet the criteria, they still may be "disabled". And, they still many not be able to pull or hold a regular bow.

Currently, only the most severely disabled persons can meet the criteria. That sucks! If a person is disabled, they are frick'n disabled!!! That stated, if that disability is of a degree of severity that, in the opinion of one's own physician, render you unable to pull or hold aregular bow you should be able to use an appliance that is recognized as a "reasonable accomodation" to participatice as an equal in the same activity. In this case, the appliance is a crossbow and the same activity is the archery season.

And as long as I'm at it, let me complete the "but" and "what if's" for you.

"But , what if we do what you recommended and a lot more people hunt with crossbows?"

My answer is this..If just one additional person is now able to participate as an equal, than so be it. If one million people are now able to participate as an equal, so be it!

[huntingfool43]

I have not seen one person who wants to "exclude the disabled" and I am growing tired of the "sportsmen must unite or the anti's will take us down" mantra. Because you oppose crossbows does not make you anti hunting nor does it give them any fuel. And I was asked earlier about crossbows being easier to use than a regular bow and yes they are easier! How hard is it to see that? Multiple shots? cmon how often do you get multiple shots with a bow and yes I beleive you can get multiple shots with a crossbow it doesn't take 10 minutes to pull the string back. The fact is crossbows take less skill. The archery season should involve "some" skill otherwise use it in rifle season.

What will you want next?

Ganzer

MERGANZER

You just don't get it, do you. The same skill involved in bow hunting must also be used when a crossbow is used. The deer are not going to magicaly appear in front of you just because of the weapon you are using. The compound is far more lethal and just as easy to use as any crossbow. Maybe it's time you pick up a crossbow and see just how much of a pain in the **** they are to use. They out weigh a compound by nearly double if not more, the majority of that weight is on the nose making them front heavey as he!!. And if you think you are ever going to get more than one shot at a deer you are dreaming. The draw time is at least 4 times if not more than a compound and if you are using a crank or electric screw driver to draw it back it is a lot longer and the deer will be in the next county before you are ready for another shot. Being I was forced to go to a crossbow because of a neck injury I do have an idea of what it's like to use one, to bad a lot of you guys don't.

[rzdrmh]

i guess i'm still waiting to read what the "crossbow crowd doesn't want me to know". cause all i've really read so far is a gentleman in his later years lamenting that "things aren't the way they used to be". think there will ever be a generation that understands? that realizes that life as they know it in their formative years will be different than their retirement years?

i've never really been for or against crossbows..

but i do get a smile from the supposition that hunting becomes "easier". just like compound bows make things easier. sure.

add wheels to a bow, add a $100 rest, a $100 sight. throw in a release. toss in a few other gadgets, and see how much easier this bow hunting is with compound bows. wondering if my sights are off, if my cams are off timing, if my arrow is making contact with the rest, etc.! so easy! :lol:

and hell, while we're at it, let's eliminate those new fancy muzzleloaders as well - their just single shot rifles, anyway, right?

yep. shooting smokeless powder out of an inline muzzleloader ought to take all skill out of hunting. nevermind the hundreds of bullets/sabots i send down range in the off season trying to find a legitimate smokeless load. never mind that damned plastic sabot that simply can't handle heat. shooting in the morning/evening, using compressed air to cool the barrel, storing sabots/bullets in coolers with ice, waiting 15-30 minutes between shots in the summer, etc. you can't believe the pains that guys go through to shoot smokeless - but it's worth it cause it makes hunting so much easier! :lol:

and all this, for what?

what compound bows and inline muzzleloaders offer the hunter is the opportunity to do something better that the norm. sure, they might shave some miles off the journey from novice to average, but the remaining miles to "expert" are hard ones, no matter which technology you use.

in reality, the vast majority of compound bow hunters are shooting from 20-30 yards, not at all beyond the limit of traditional archery. and for all the clamoring for 200 yard muzzleloaders - there's very few here that have ever shot anywhere close to that distance, probably with any rifle. if they did, they'd know its not a "simple" thing, even with smokeless powder and an inline. no, the vast majority are content to simply find more time in the woods with a different weapon, still shooting 30-100 yards.

and so it goes on.

me, as i get older, i want to simplify. when i replace my hi-tech compound bow, it will more than likely be with a stick and a string. simple. not because of tradition. tradition is served every time i watch the sun rise in the woods.

as for muzzleloaders and rifles? who knows - i guess i'll see where i'm at. i still have the energy and desire to track down those "perfect" loads, but that too, will wane. for all of its quirks, smokeless powder in a muzzleloader does offer cleanliness, and i can't imagine down the road i'll get more interested in cleaning rifles.

what i really want right now are options.. give me the opportunity to learn the ballistic lessons of those that came before me - that there is no free lunch. i suspect that crossbow hunters will come to terms with the fact that their weapon of choice is no more the panacea of hunting than any other weapon. but most of us are bull-headed in our youth, and need to discover these truths for ourselves.

of course, i don't have the deer herd that some of the more fortunate on this forum have. hunting and killing deer has never been easy for me, regardless of weapon, size or sex of the deer.

[Swamp Ghost]

:lol::lol::lol:

Gunhunters? No Swamp, I think you have them confused with most of the guys over on that "other" board that you and One Eye frequent, you know the one made up of bow hunters who start pulling out their hair and gnashing their teeth (the few they have left, anyway) over the mere mention of antler restrictions or buck limits?

I see that your suggestion that MBH revisit the idea of OBR was met with a deafening silence. :lol:

You guys are in good company over there, I must say. :lol:

I did enjoy the rationalization that the President of MBH posted over there to justify his opposition to the Lindquist proposal.

"If every other buck has a "trophy" rack won't that take some of the thrill out of shooting a "big" buck?"

That thar is some right forward thinkin, that is! :lol:

Munster, I don't know if I should be honored or scared. Are you stalking me? :D

Like I've said before, I don't see eye to eye with the MBH on a lot of things.

It's a shame that an organization that touts recreational opportunity is willing to jeopardize their time afield by not supporting changes in MI current deer management. Instead they would rather concede more and more of their season to the gun.

As far as the MIDNR's deer management division goes they are almost required to keep their biggest paying customer (firearm hunters) happy, much to the detriment of MI's deer herd, ie., too many deer (esp. doe's) in most DMU's. MI firearm hunters enjoy the fact that they are needed to manage MI's deer herd. If MI firearm hunters don't like something, as far as deer management goes, the MIDNR does everything in their power to minimize it's effect and keep them happy.

[MERGANZER]

Meganzer, you are not looking hard enough. If an person does not meet the criteria, they still may be "disabled". And, they still many not be able to pull or hold a regular bow.

Currently, only the most severely disabled persons can meet the criteria. That sucks! If a person is disabled, they are frick'n disabled!!! That stated, if that disability is of a degree of severity that, in the opinion of one's own physician, render you unable to pull or hold aregular bow you should be able to use an appliance that is recognized as a "reasonable accomodation" to participatice as an equal in the same activity. In this case, the appliance is a crossbow and the same activity is the archery season.

And as long as I'm at it, let me complete the "but" and "what if's" for you.

"But , what if we do what you recommended and a lot more people hunt with crossbows?"

My answer is this..If just one additional person is now able to participate as an equal, than so be it. If one million people are now able to participate as an equal, so be it!




Riva, if you have read any of my other posts on this topic you will see I am for the disabled being able to use crossbows during archery season and I agree the system id flawed and does not allow enough people in the door. IF YOU CANNOT USE A BOW THEN BY ALL MEANS I SUPPORT YOUR USING A CROSSBOW. I do not want to keep people from the woods by any means I just do not support open crossbow useage for everyone during archery season.

Whit1 by easier I mean shooting. It is far easier to rest the crossbow and take as long as you need to shoot and easier to shoot in general than a compound bow.

Ganzer

[Riva]

Riva, if you have read any of my other posts on this topic you will see I am for the disabled being able to use crossbows during archery season and I agree the system id flawed and does not allow enough people in the door. IF YOU CANNOT USE A BOW THEN BY ALL MEANS I SUPPORT YOUR USING A CROSSBOW. I do not want to keep people from the woods by any means I just do not support open crossbow useage for everyone during archery season.

Ganzer

Thank you for the affirmation. Regrettably, the Michigan Bowhunters doesn't see it the same way as you. They believe that only the most severely disabled should be able to use a crossbow -- knowing full well there are those that cannot meet the narrowly defined criteria yet are still unable to pull or hold a regular bow. IMHO, The MBH is willing to accept the fact that there are people who fall through the cracks just to keep any further expansion of crossbow use--even at the expanse of persons with disabilities!! UGH!

The MBH already knows my postion on these matters. It's high time for you guys to say to MBH that they are wrong on this particular issue. No matter what your feelings are surrounding unrestricted use, pro or con, you hyave an equal obligation to tell those folks your feelings about the disabability position. No offense, but otherwise, it's just lip service.

Tell the MBH that they're wrong!

[MERGANZER]

RIVA, I would never support the idea of not allowing a segment of hunters into the woods period. The current system id flawed tremendously and I have heard the stories of people trying to get a permit and being denied over and over and it makes me sick to think we are holding prortsmen out of the woods every year because the definitions are so strict. I simply do not support the idea of across the board use. That being said, I fully expect the crossbow to be a legal archery weopon within the next few years. There is simply too much money involved and this state will do anything for a buck. I think if your physician evaluates you and says you cannot pull or hold a bow then his signature should be good enough but you know what they are worried about I mean look at how the handicapped parking permits are handed out left and right. I know a guy who has one because he has a bad knee yet he golfs almost everyday and walks.

That beingg said I will not support anything that further restricts the truly disabled from obtaining the proper permits.

ganzer

[Riva]

RIVA, I would never support the idea of not allowing a segment of hunters into the woods period. The current system id flawed tremendously and I have heard the stories of people trying to get a permit and being denied over and over and it makes me sick to think we are holding sportsmen out of the woods every year because the definitions are so strict. I simply do not support the idea of across the board use. That being said, I fully expect the crossbow to be a legal archery weapon within the next few years. There is simply too much money involved and this state will do anything for a buck. I think if your physician evaluates you and says you cannot pull or hold a bow then his signature should be good enough but you know what they are worried about I mean look at how the handicapped parking permits are handed out left and right. I know a guy who has one because he has a bad knee yet he golfs almost everyday and walks.

That being said, I will not support anything that further restricts the truly disabled from obtaining the proper permits.

ganzer


Ganzer,

There is no such word as "truly" disabled. You are either disabled or you or not. In this instance, you are disabled to "a degree of severity" (4 key words) that you cannot pull or hold a bow. If your disability is NOT to a degree of severity that you doc thinks you can pull or hold a bow, you do not get the permit.

That stated, I think you are using the world "truly" disabled to quantify people who are not disabled to a degree of severity that should allow them to hunt with a crossbow. I offer you those rats have already "found the cheese" and have been hunting with a crossbow under the current criteria since day #1.

[beervo2]

Please MBH members if you do not agree with MBH s stance on this issue speak up and let them know , after all it is your money they are using to fight the disability issue...:help:

[Liv4Huntin']

I almost joined the MBH at one of the deer/turkey shows .... that is until the booth occupants made their 'elitist' stance obvious by their comments! I just turned and walked away. Perhaps if I had joined then, I could let them know NOW that their position doesn't speak for all members.
~ m ~

[Partikle]

Here in Ontario a crossbow is considered archery and is totally legal during all archery seasons. There does not seem to be any problems with it at all except the compound guys razz the crossbow guys a bit. We have just accepted it and I don't think I've ever heard a complaint from either side.

I guess in some cases we are the ones living in "the land of the free"

[Munsterlndr]

Here in Ontario a crossbow is considered archery and is totally legal during all archery seasons. There does not seem to be any problems with it at all except the compound guys razz the crossbow guys a bit. We have just accepted it and I don't think I've ever heard a complaint from either side.

I guess in some cases we are the ones living in "the land of the free"

That seems to be pretty much the case wherever crossbows are expanded into bow season. After the debate is settled and the blended season actually occurs, everybody finds out that the entire debate is all a tempest in a teapot and they look at each other and say "what was the big deal about". Strangely enough, vertical bow hunters are actually able to continue hunting the same way they always have and nobody comes around and forces them to hand up their vertical bow and use a crossbow instead. ;)

[benster]

WOW, must be the heat? All I can say is I hope I am never put in the position where I have no choice but to use a crossbow because of health reasons. As for easier I don't know what you are thinking. Sure you don't have to hold the string back but with todays bows with 85% let off and pulling 60# what are you holding 9#. Give me a break. So you don't have to draw back but you still have to pick your spot to get your weapon into position. I'm sure I am no alone when I say it would be harder to use a crossbow out of some of my stands because I don't know where the deer will be coming from. Has anyone ever had to take a shot behind them where the tree would be in the way of a crossbow? And as far as faster shooting for multipal shots:dizzy: ,I have never shot a crossbow so someone correct me if I'm wrong, if it takes you ten minutes to put another arrow on your string maybe you need to apply for a crossbow permit? Don't be so fast to judge others because it may be you in the future that may need to use a crossbow. But can't because you never thought it would happen to you.

[dburroak]

there is a neighbor about 4mi. from me in branch co. he has shot some huge deer with a bow and is dead set against crossbows. he also leases about 160 acres, plants food plots, will not allow anyone else to hunt " his land", and does his scouting from a powered parachute. but useing a crossbow is not really hunting. ????

[swampbuck]

there is a neighbor about 4mi. from me in branch co. he has shot some huge deer with a bow and is dead set against crossbows. he also leases about 160 acres, plants food plots, will not allow anyone else to hunt " his land", and does his scouting from a powered parachute. but useing a crossbow is not really hunting. ????


I agree, I would bet that the majority of archery hunters that say its too easy are using bait/food plots to lure the deer into range of theyre PRIMITIVE 85% let off, red dot sighted, trigger released compound. BUT THEY ARE WORRIED THAT CROSSBOWS MAKE IT TOO EASY:lol:

Swampghost,
Hows those food plots and the brush borders around you property going. Are the neighbors still shooting your 1 1/2 y.o. bucks :)

[Swamp Ghost]

http://gf.nd.gov/multimedia/pubs/baiting-video.html

Hows those food plots and the brush borders around you property going. Are the neighbors still shooting your 1 1/2 y.o. bucks

Food plots now take up less and less of my habitat improvements. They now account for 1/4 of the acreage they used to. Brush borders are fence-like and the neighbors shoot less 1.5 year old bucks than they used to. It's probably a result of good communication with my surrounding landowners, they now shoot far more does than they used to and are inclined to let 1.5 year old bucks walk.

There is a group of lessee's toward my NE boundary who get a real kick out of Nov. 15. It's a real shooting gallery, I am sure they will be just as thrilled with Oct. 1 if crossbows are legalized.

But hey, at least it will get more folks in the woods.......

[sbooy42]

http://gf.nd.gov/multimedia/pubs/baiting-video.html


But hey, at least it will get more folks in the woods.......

Yep thats about the only advantage I see... More ,IMO less dedicated hunters, in the woods pushing the deer into hiding or onto to my property before Nov.15...Maybe there is an upside to this...
Less dedicated= able hunter who chooses not to participate during archery yet is pro-crossbow during archery season...

I can only imagine the rage from the firearm only hunters if crossbows are added to the mix.. "Now there's even more frickin bowhunters out there scare'n all my deer before I get to hunt"

I feel bad for the State land bowhunters though..right now bow season is pretty much the only time to get away from crowds... games over when crossbows become legal...

[swoosh]

Here is a quote from a bowhunter in Louisiana.



Imagine that.
Dan

Dan I woke up this morning pretty smart, now that I have read this I am not so sure:lol:

AR's and a Crossbow Bring it on:yikes:

[Munsterlndr]

I feel bad for the State land bowhunters though..right now bow season is pretty much the only time to get away from crowds... games over when crossbows become legal...

Why would the game be over? I keep seeing people throwing out this sort of assertion without providing anything to back it up with. Public land bow hunters are not going to be prevented from hunting if crossbows are introduced into archery season.

According to Peyton-Bull, only about 15% of hunters hunt exclusively on public land. This is supported by the fact that the public land percentage of the harvest was 14% last year. So we are talking about a pretty small sub-set of bow hunters when we are talking about public land hunters. About half of those bow hunters are going to be hunting in the NLP & UP. There is no shortage of public land available to hunt in those zones, so it really should have almost no impact on those bow hunters.

The only zone where there is not a great deal of public land is in the SLP. So you are talking about it being an issue with about half of the 14% or so of bow hunters who hunt public land or roughly 7% of current bow hunters might see an increased number of hunters in the public woods. Hardly seems like a crisis.

The other side of that coin is actually how many firearms hunters would become crossbow hunters. I've seen estimates all over the map from maybe 10,000 to "thundering hordes". Realistically, based on what we have seen in other states the number is probably something like 10% or 30,000 new crossbow hunters. But just for discussion purposes, let's say it was a huge number like 100,000 firearms hunters who decided to pick up a crossbow. What would the impact be?

85% of them would be hunting on private land. This should have only a minimal impact on existing bow hunters, since the crossbow is a silent weapon and there will not be guns going off to scare the herd and cause them to change their patterns. 15% would be hunting public lands. That means that another 15,000 hunters would be distributed throughout the state on public land and would join the 45,000 bow hunters who currently hunt public land. Keep in mind that we have lost 80,000 bow hunters in the last ten years and the portion of those hunters who hunted public land would have been approx. 12,000. So basically we would have a few thousand more public land hunters during bow season than we had in 1998. Again, we've been there, done that and it was not a crisis scenario.

When you balance the myriad of positive benefits such as reversing the trend of declining hunter numbers by increased retention and recruitment, increases in revenue, strengthening the hunting lobby by increasing hunter Numbers, increasing the opportunity for recreation and making the DNR's job of managing the herd easier by increasing the harvest, it seems that the positives outweigh the negatives by a huge margin.

If you want to feel sorry for the public land bow hunter, I'd suggest that you feel sorry for them about having to share more of their season with firearms hunters, due to falling numbers of bow hunters and falling archery harvests. This trend of early and late firearms antlerless seasons is going to continue to expand as long as bow hunters continue to harvest fewer deer every year. The question that bow hunters should be asking themselves is, would I rather share my season with a crossbow hunter or a guy using a 12 gauge, because that is going to be the choice that you face in the future. ;)

[Swamp Ghost]

The early and late antlerless seasons are a result of failed herd management by the DNR. Throwing more permits at the problem hasn't worked.

The only way Michiganders will harvest more doe's is if you severely limit their ability to harvest the coveted 1.5 year old buck.

The presence of people in the woods effects deer behavior, not their weapon.

So hunters are going to spread themselves evenly all over the state's public and private lands?

Anyone been to Waterloo or Dansville SGA on the weekends of bowseason in the late 80's - 90's? I have, hardly an enjoyable experience.

Did the harvest go up last year? With less hunters? Thought so.

I'll take quality hunters over a quantity of hunters any day of the week.

[sbooy42]

When you balance the myriad of positive benefits such as reversing the trend of declining hunter numbers by increased retention and recruitment, increases in revenue, strengthening the hunting lobby by increasing hunter Numbers, increasing the opportunity for recreation and making the DNR's job of managing the herd easier by increasing the harvest, it seems that the positives outweigh the negatives by a huge margin.

If you want to feel sorry for the public land bow hunter, I'd suggest that you feel sorry for them about having to share more of their season with firearms hunters, due to falling numbers of bow hunters and falling archery harvests. This trend of early and late firearms antler-less seasons is going to continue to expand as long as bow hunters continue to harvest fewer deer every year. The question that bow hunters should be asking themselves is, would I rather share my season with a crossbow hunter or a guy using a 12 gauge, because that is going to be the choice that you face in the future. ;)

Sorry but I don't know who Peyton-Bull is and I don't have the database that you do to crunch a bunch numbers...
I keep hearing reversing the trend of declined hunters, bring in new hunters and increased revenue...But I'm still not convinced that there is a number of non-hunters out there who are suddenly going to take up hunting if cross-bows are legal..where is the extra revenue going to come from the same cost of the same license??? And I highly doubt the non-use of x-bows is the reason resident hunters are leaving MI...
Yes I do feel sorry for public land only bow-hunters. who are pretty much run out when Nov 15th comes...I know some who set @home until Dec 1st Almost sounds like your blaming archery season for the lack of antler less harvest..maybe if we could convince some gun-hunters stay out after they have filled their buck tag we'd be in better shape... EAB??:yikes:

No I take it back ..crossbows are the answer to all of MIs problems...:rolleyes:

[Munsterlndr]

Sorry but I don't know who Peyton-Bull is and I don't have the database that you do to crunch a bunch numbers...
I keep hearing reversing the trend of declined hunters, bring in new hunters and increased revenue...But I'm still not convinced that there is a number of non-hunters out there who are suddenly going to take up hunting if cross-bows are legal..where is the extra revenue going to come from the same cost of the same license??? And I highly doubt the non-use of x-bows is the reason resident hunters are leaving MI...
Yes I do feel sorry for public land only bow-hunters. who are pretty much run out when Nov 15th comes...I know some who set @home until Dec 1st Almost sounds like your blaming archery season for the lack of antler less harvest..maybe if we could convince some gun-hunters stay out after they have filled their buck tag we'd be in better shape... EAB??:yikes:

No I take it back ..crossbows are the answer to all of MIs problems...:rolleyes:
The Peyton-Bull study was conducted by Dr. Ben Peyton of MSU. Google it, it had some interesting information about Michigan hunters and their practices.

New crossbow hunters are going to come from 3 different groups.

The first group is aging vertical bow hunters who simply don't have the physical ability to continue to bow hunt. That does not mean that they can't pull back a bow, thus meeting the disability standards, it just means that due to shoulder and back aches, etc. that are part of the normal aging process, that they don't enjoy pulling back their bow as much as is needed to stay accurate and so they hang up the bow and stop hunting during archery season. It's pretty well documented in other states that retaining these hunters can be accomplished by the expansion of crossbows. It's why Wisconsin , Illinois and a number of other states allow unrestricted use by seniors. These are guys that have been bow hunting for many years. Crossbows can extend that opportunity for a number of additional years. The bulk of the 10,000 or so bow hunters that we lose every year come from this demographic. Attrition is a killer when it comes to maintaining hunter numbers.

The second group is primarily woman and youth who may be interested in bow hunting but don't have the physical conditioning to repeatedly draw back a bow the amount of time that is necessary to become proficient enough to hunt. Crossbows allow them to get into the sport and participate. A certain number of these hunters, especially youth hunters will then transition to using a vertical bow after they reach a level of physical maturity to be able to handle a vertical bow. It's an opportunity to get kids hooked on deer hunting before they get too old.

The third group, and probably the largest, is firearms hunters who are primarily interested in expanding their recreational opportunities. They are interested in becoming multiple season hunters. Their desire to hunt with another weapon outside of the existing firearms season is the exact same reason that Fred Bear used to justify the establishment of a stand alone archery season. They would like the opportunity to hunt with the weapon of their choice in a separate season instead of having to choose whether to use a firearm or a crossbow. Prior to 1938 bow hunters in Michigan were faced with the same situation as crossbow hunters are today, having to share a season with firearms hunters. It was a reasonable desire for bow hunters to be able to hunt with an alternative weapon outside of firearms season and it is just as reasonable a desire for crossbow hunters to have the opportunity to use their weapon of choice outside of firearms season.

The extra revenue will be generated through a variety of means. Retention of hunters keeps more hunters buying licenses and spending money of equipment, food, lodging, etc., which would be lost if they abandon the sport. Recruitment of new hunters brings in revenue that would not have been spent if the alternative was not there. Increasing the opportunities for existing hunters to spend more time in the woods will also create more opportunities to increase antlerless license sales and will increase revenue from the sale of archery equipment and the other increased spending that comes from hunters spending more time in the woods. Remember that through the Pittman-Robinson excise tax, a portion of the revenue generated by the sale of new archery equipment is funneled back to our DNR. 30,000 - 40,000 hunters spending an additional $1K in buying crossbow equipment could generate an additional $4 million dollars in revenue for our DNR.

Now that we have looked at the potential for what could result from the expansion of crossbows , let's put the shoe on the other foot and look at what happens if the current status quo is maintained.

Bow hunter numbers continue to drop. They have declined 22% in the last ten years. In another ten years they will be almost half of what they were at their high-point in 1998. That means revenue is reduced, public utilization of the resource is reduced and the archery portion of the harvest will continue to be smaller and smaller. The DNR needs deer harvested in this state, especially in the SLP, and if bow hunters will not or cannot harvest enough does, the DNR is going to continue to expand firearms seasons to take up the slack. You are either part of the problem or part of the solution.

So tell me what bow hunters are doing to help turn the tide of declining bow hunter numbers and increase the level of harvest, especially antlerless harvest in the SLP? Sure, MBH and other archery groups have youth education programs but for whatever reason, they are falling well short of recruiting enough new bow hunters to replace the numbers of experienced hunters that leave the ranks through attrition. The current attempts just are not sufficient. So I ask you anti-crossbow die-hards, what's your solution? Or are you comfortable just sitting back and watching your sport fade away into irrelevancy over the next several generations, content with the notion that you stayed true to "tradition". Let's hear some viable solutions to this problem.

[Swamp Ghost]

We kill more than enough deer in this state. We fail to kill the right deer, doe's.

Hunter numbers are still falling, even in states that allow the crossbow. The answer? Another baby boom.

First. I have heard statements suggesting that most bowhunters are also gunhunters.

So it's safe to say the aging bowhunters will continue to gunhunt long after they can no longer bowhunt.

Second. If they can't draw back a low poundage, 75% let-off compund, how are women and youth going to use such a lunky tool, that is profoundly front-end heavy and takes quite a bit of physical dexterity to hold?

Third. Able-bodied firearm hunters have the option and the opportunity of a season outside of firearm season. Just pick up a bow. Or lobby for a crossbow season, just like bowhunters did.

Oooo, a one year spike in revenue! Long term solution? Nope...

It's up to the DNR to manage the herd. They make the rules followed by bowhunters and gunhunters alike. The herd problem lies firmly at the feet of the MIDNR and NRC.

With less hunters the DNR will be forced to change regulations and increase license costs. We'll manage.

The crossbow will do none of the things you claim it will. None.

[sbooy42]

The Peyton-Bull study was conducted by Dr. Ben Peyton of MSU. Google it, it had some interesting information about Michigan hunters and their practices.

New crossbow hunters are going to come from 3 different groups.

The first group is aging vertical bow hunters who simply don't have the physical ability to continue to bow hunt. That does not mean that they can't pull back a bow, thus meeting the disability standards, it just means that due to shoulder and back aches, etc. that are part of the normal aging process, that they don't enjoy pulling back their bow as much as is needed to stay accurate and so they hang up the bow and stop hunting during archery season. It's pretty well documented in other states that retaining these hunters can be accomplished by the expansion of crossbows. It's why Wisconsin , Illinois and a number of other states allow unrestricted use by seniors. These are guys that have been bow hunting for many years. Crossbows can extend that opportunity for a number of additional years. The bulk of the 10,000 or so bow hunters that we lose every year come from this demographic. Attrition is a killer when it comes to maintaining hunter numbers.

The second group is primarily woman and youth who may be interested in bow hunting but don't have the physical conditioning to repeatedly draw back a bow the amount of time that is necessary to become proficient enough to hunt. Crossbows allow them to get into the sport and participate. A certain number of these hunters, especially youth hunters will then transition to using a vertical bow after they reach a level of physical maturity to be able to handle a vertical bow. It's an opportunity to get kids hooked on deer hunting before they get too old.

The third group, and probably the largest, is firearms hunters who are primarily interested in expanding their recreational opportunities. They are interested in becoming multiple season hunters. Their desire to hunt with another weapon outside of the existing firearms season is the exact same reason that Fred Bear used to justify the establishment of a stand alone archery season. They would like the opportunity to hunt with the weapon of their choice in a separate season instead of having to choose whether to use a firearm or a crossbow. Prior to 1938 bow hunters in Michigan were faced with the same situation as crossbow hunters are today, having to share a season with firearms hunters. It was a reasonable desire for bow hunters to be able to hunt with an alternative weapon outside of firearms season and it is just as reasonable a desire for crossbow hunters to have the opportunity to use their weapon of choice outside of firearms season.

The extra revenue will be generated through a variety of means. Retention of hunters keeps more hunters buying licenses and spending money of equipment, food, lodging, etc., which would be lost if they abandon the sport. Recruitment of new hunters brings in revenue that would not have been spent if the alternative was not there. Increasing the opportunities for existing hunters to spend more time in the woods will also create more opportunities to increase antlerless license sales and will increase revenue from the sale of archery equipment and the other increased spending that comes from hunters spending more time in the woods. Remember that through the Pittman-Robinson excise tax, a portion of the revenue generated by the sale of new archery equipment is funneled back to our DNR. 30,000 - 40,000 hunters spending an additional $1K in buying crossbow equipment could generate an additional $4 million dollars in revenue for our DNR.

Now that we have looked at the potential for what could result from the expansion of crossbows , let's put the shoe on the other foot and look at what happens if the current status quo is maintained.

Bow hunter numbers continue to drop. They have declined 22% in the last ten years. In another ten years they will be almost half of what they were at their high-point in 1998. That means revenue is reduced, public utilization of the resource is reduced and the archery portion of the harvest will continue to be smaller and smaller. The DNR needs deer harvested in this state, especially in the SLP, and if bow hunters will not or cannot harvest enough does, the DNR is going to continue to expand firearms seasons to take up the slack. You are either part of the problem or part of the solution.

So tell me what bow hunters are doing to help turn the tide of declining bow hunter numbers and increase the level of harvest, especially antlerless harvest in the SLP? Sure, MBH and other archery groups have youth education programs but for whatever reason, they are falling well short of recruiting enough new bow hunters to replace the numbers of experienced hunters that leave the ranks through attrition. The current attempts just are not sufficient. So I ask you anti-crossbow die-hards, what's your solution? Or are you comfortable just sitting back and watching your sport fade away into irrelevancy over the next several generations, content with the notion that you stayed true to "tradition". Let's hear some viable solutions to this problem.

I can not speak for other hunters and all I know is I filled 3 doe tags in SLP(all tags) last year and even used my restricted tag on a doe in NLP with my bow...Last year I saw my hunting buddies tag more does than in the years past..So I guess from what I saw last year the bowhunters I know did more to help management than in years past...

I am still having a hard time understanding how x-bows are going help bring out new hunters..I shoot with many kids and women who are all proficient with a bow and successful at harvesting deer...

I do agree that MI has serious problems but IMO the answer isn't a x-bow

Retain hunters= improve the quality..make em want to stay in MI
Kids involved= good mentors...my oldest wont go in woods without his plastic bow
New hunters= lend a hand.. my neighbor is very appreciative that I showed him the ropes and helped him kill his first buck last year..Unfortunately he now hunts in OH because he couldn't find good work in MI...

I know these are not the solutions you were looking for but I feel that introduction and mentoring is the best way to get new hunters involved..and IMO the lack of this and management is the reason MI is seeing a decline
But if crunching numbers and collecting data shows cross-bows are the answer so be it..you continue to collect your data, belittle others with info and keep punch'n that keyboard... IMO the answers are outside

[Hungry Wolf]

introduction and mentoring is the best way to get new hunters involved..and IMO the lack of this and management is the reason MI is seeing a decline

Well said!

[Swamp Ghost]

The DNR has gone above and beyond trying to recruit new hunters. Youth hunts, the apprentice hunter program and lowering hunter age requirements target what we need, new hunters. Another weapon to be used by current hunters is the last thing this state needs.

[Munsterlndr]

The DNR has gone above and beyond trying to recruit new hunters. Youth hunts, the apprentice hunter program and lowering hunter age requirements target what we need, new hunters. Another weapon to be used by current hunters is the last thing this state needs.

As you say, the DNR has gone above and beyond and still hunter numbers are falling. Instead of throwing up our hands let's figure out a solution. I can give you two examples of changes that occurred in the past, which both helped to increase hunter numbers.

The advances in technology that resulted in the introduction of the compound bow had a profound impact on hunter numbers and bow hunting in Michigan. The Compound bow was originally patented in the mid-60's but did not become widely manufactured on a commercial scale until the late 70's/early 80's. Bear archery introduced their first compound in 1975. It took 10 years or so until compounds became widely accepted and became the predominate type of bow uses in archery season. By Around 1989 compound bows had become firmly entrenched and there was a huge corresponding spike in both bow hunter numbers and an increase in the total archery harvest and success rate. Here is a comparison, in 1979 there were 216,000 bow hunters and they harvested 25,640 deer. This indicates a success rate of 12% which is pretty typical for non-compound vertical bow users. By 1989 there were 287,000 bow hunters and they harvested 96,700 deer that year. That is a success rate of 34%. That success rate has been typical since that time. There is no question that the introduction of compound technology had a huge impact in Michigan, both in terms of hunter numbers (making the sport more accessible and convenient) and in increasing the success rate (due to increased range, penetrating power and accuracy). More than 85% of bow hunters now use compounds instead of long or recurves. Bow hunting survived the introduction of new technology and benefited from it. Most of the additional 70,000 or so bow hunters that the introduction of the compound brought into the sport were already firearms hunters.

Another example is the impact that the introduction of technological advances has had on the muzzleloading season. Over the last ten years, while both firearm and archery hunter numbers have taken a precipitous plunge, muzzleloader hunter numbers have stayed almost static, dropping less than 3% during that time period. There is little question that technological advances in in-line technology, improved black powder substitutes, improved bullets technology (sabots) and other improvements have been chiefly responsible for the on-going popularity of muzzleloading. These advances have made it much easier and more convenient for hunters to take part in the muzzleloading season. Had it stayed a traditionalist round ball, iron sights season, only a fraction of the current participants would have taken it up.

These are two examples of how the impact of technology has made it easier and more convenient for hunters to participate in extending their hunting seasons and the result has been an increase or the maintenance of hunter numbers within that given season. The same trend would hold true with the introduction of crossbows into archery season. More hunter participation, better utilization of the resource, positive contributions to deer management.

Again, neither of you have offered any realistic alternatives that could help stem the flow of hunter numbers. Mentoring, education, all of that is already taking place and in terms of recruiting sufficient numbers of hunters, it's failing miserably.

[sbooy42]

Again, neither of you have offered any realistic alternatives that could help stem the flow of hunter numbers. Mentoring, education, all of that is already taking place and in terms of recruiting sufficient numbers of hunters, it's failing miserably.

Just because you said it doesn't mean its right... or maybe its because you don't have data on the effects of mentoring, and that makes it seem unrealistic..But I don't need surveys and numbers to tell me that my kids enjoy the outdoors as well as those kids in our club and 4H. And its not because of a weapon that they enjoy these things, its the simple fact that someone got them involved...Failing miserable?? I disagree...I think we need to do a better job...Maybe you could take some of your dedication to numbers, surveys, and data and contribute some of that to helping out the neighbors kids...
Or maybe we could just allow any weapon to be used from Oct1-Dec31..including flame-throwers, maybe then we'd have the numbers your looking for;)

[Munsterlndr]

Just because you said it doesn't mean its right... or maybe its because you don't have data on the effects of mentoring, and that makes it seem unrealistic..But I don't need surveys and numbers to tell me that my kids enjoy the outdoors as well as those kids in our club and 4H. And its not because of a weapon that they enjoy these things, its the simple fact that someone got them involved...Failing miserable?? I disagree...I think we need to do a better job...Maybe you could take some of your dedication to numbers, surveys, and data and contribute some of that to helping out the neighbors kids...
Or maybe we could just allow any weapon to be used from Oct1-Dec31..including flame-throwers, maybe then we'd have the numbers your looking for;)

I'm not saying mentoring is not important and I think you know that. We do have data on the effects of mentoring and all of the other efforts that the DNR is making combined and the data tells us that Bow hunter numbers in Michigan have fallen by 80,000 in the last ten years!

The point is what do you guys who want to continue to exclude giving other hunters the opportunity to use the weapon of their choice in a season outside of the firearms season propose to do about this trend?

If you continue to insist on season exclusivity, then ultimately the scenario that you propose of an all weapons season may become more possible than you want to imagine. ;)

[Swamp Ghost]

As you say, the DNR has gone above and beyond and still hunter numbers are falling. Instead of throwing up our hands let's figure out a solution. I can give you two examples of changes that occurred in the past, which both helped to increase hunter numbers.

The advances in technology that resulted in the introduction of the compound bow had a profound impact on hunter numbers and bow hunting in Michigan. The Compound bow was originally patented in the mid-60's but did not become widely manufactured on a commercial scale until the late 70's/early 80's. Bear archery introduced their first compound in 1975. It took 10 years or so until compounds became widely accepted and became the predominate type of bow uses in archery season. By Around 1989 compound bows had become firmly entrenched and there was a huge corresponding spike in both bow hunter numbers and an increase in the total archery harvest and success rate. Here is a comparison, in 1979 there were 216,000 bow hunters and they harvested 25,640 deer. This indicates a success rate of 12% which is pretty typical for non-compound vertical bow users. By 1989 there were 287,000 bow hunters and they harvested 96,700 deer that year. That is a success rate of 34%. That success rate has been typical since that time. There is no question that the introduction of compound technology had a huge impact in Michigan, both in terms of hunter numbers (making the sport more accessible and convenient) and in increasing the success rate (due to increased range, penetrating power and accuracy). More than 85% of bow hunters now use compounds instead of long or recurves. Bow hunting survived the introduction of new technology and benefited from it. Most of the additional 70,000 or so bow hunters that the introduction of the compound brought into the sport were already firearms hunters.

Another example is the impact that the introduction of technological advances has had on the muzzleloading season. Over the last ten years, while both firearm and archery hunter numbers have taken a precipitous plunge, muzzleloader hunter numbers have stayed almost static, dropping less than 3% during that time period. There is little question that technological advances in in-line technology, improved black powder substitutes, improved bullets technology (sabots) and other improvements have been chiefly responsible for the on-going popularity of muzzleloading. These advances have made it much easier and more convenient for hunters to take part in the muzzleloading season. Had it stayed a traditionalist round ball, iron sights season, only a fraction of the current participants would have taken it up.

These are two examples of how the impact of technology has made it easier and more convenient for hunters to participate in extending their hunting seasons and the result has been an increase or the maintenance of hunter numbers within that given season. The same trend would hold true with the introduction of crossbows into archery season. More hunter participation, better utilization of the resource, positive contributions to deer management.

Again, neither of you have offered any realistic alternatives that could help stem the flow of hunter numbers. Mentoring, education, all of that is already taking place and in terms of recruiting sufficient numbers of hunters, it's failing miserably.

In both examples these are weapons that are/were used by active hunters looking for opportunities away from MI's 2 week firearm season.

It did nothing to recruit new hunters.

The crossbow has not recruited new hunters or retained hunters in every state it's used.

Like I have said before, nothing short of a baby boom will help with hunter recruitment. It would also help if MI's statelands were little more attractive to deer hunt, but that again is a management issue.

[Munsterlndr]

In both examples these are weapons that are/were used by hunters looking for opportunities away from MI's 2 week firearm season.

It did nothing to recruit new hunters.

The crossbow has not recruited new hunters or retained hunters in every state it's used.

Baloney. Make the case then that bow hunter numbers would have grown as much as they have in Ohio had crossbows not been introduced there. That is certainly not the opinion of the Ohio DNR.

Do you honestly believe that the advent of the compound bow did nothing to bring new hunters into the sport? That every new bow hunter starts out as a firearms hunter? That compounds do not allow some younger hunters to start hunting prior to being able to pull a long or recurve bow? Please.

I know bow hunters that have never hunted deer with a firearm in their life. I also know bow hunters that may have started out hunting with a firearm but no longer even own a gun and if faced with the choice of having to quit hunting during bow season or go back to hunting with a firearm during the Nov. 15th-30th firearms season, would choose to leave the hunting ranks.

Expanding hunter opportunity is also a good thing. You act like there is no positive benefit to increasing the recreational opportunities and increasing the number of hours that existing hunters spend in the woods. Increase the number of hours a hunter hunts and you increase the number of deer harvested, the amount of money spent in pursuing the sport and the commitment that the hunter has to defending their rights as a sportsman. You seem to conveniently want to ignore these benefits.

[Swamp Ghost]

I'm not saying mentoring is not important and I think you know that. We do have data on the effects of mentoring and all of the other efforts that the DNR is making combined and the data tells us that Bow hunter numbers in Michigan have fallen by 80,000 in the last ten years!

The point is what do you guys who want to continue to exclude giving other hunters the opportunity to use the weapon of their choice in a season outside of the firearms season propose to do about this trend?

If you continue to insist on season exclusivity, then ultimately the scenario that you propose of an all weapons season may become more possible than you want to imagine. ;)

The only ones excluding themselves are the ones that REFUSE to participate. The only ones that are holding them back are THEMSELVES.

Let's cater to the unmotivated, it's what we did with baiting and we got a TB zone because of it.

[Swamp Ghost]

Baloney. Make the case then that bow hunter numbers would have grown as much as they have in Ohio had crossbows not been introduced there. That is certainly not the opinion of the Ohio DNR.

Do you honestly believe that the advent of the compound bow did nothing to bring new hunters into the sport? That every new bow hunter starts out as a firearms hunter? That compounds do not allow some younger hunters to start hunting prior to being able to pull a long or recurve bow? Please.

I know bow hunters that have never hunted deer with a firearm in their life. I also know bow hunters that may have started out hunting with a firearm but no longer even own a gun and if faced with the choice of having to quit hunting during bow season or go back to hunting with a firearm during the Nov. 15th-30th firearms season, would choose to leave the hunting ranks.

Expanding hunter opportunity is also a good thing. You act like there is no positive benefit to increasing the recreational opportunities and increasing the number of hours that existing hunters spend in the woods. Increase the number of hours a hunter hunts and you increase the number of deer harvested, the amount of money spent in pursuing the sport and the commitment that the hunter has to defending their rights as a sportsman. You seem to conveniently want to ignore these benefits.

The OH DNR and OH hunters will never know will they? Neither do you...

Oh, did I mention hunter numbers falling in OH?

Did I mention the increased deer harvest last year? With less hunters! Say it ain't so......

I started off busting brush piles for my uncles without a gun. The first thing I killed was a fox squirrel. I started hunting deer with a bow, killed my first deer with a bow. Killed my first buck with a gun.

Safe to say I wasn't recruited into hunting by the use of the compound bow. Neither was my Grandfather, Dad, Uncles, Brother, Nephews or many of my friends that I have got into hunting. We would have been hunting no matter what weapon was or wasn't legal.

I would say that fishing as a child had as much to do with me taking up hunting as actually going hunting.

[swoosh]

"The Tradition of Hunting Cannot Be Based Simply on Success" ~ North Dakota Game and Fish Dept

Who gets to decided what Tradition is for hunting? You? North Dakota?
The man on the moon? Who's tradition should I follow? What is tradition of hunting?

The "tradition" argument is bogus IMO, it went out with high power rifles and scopes:lol:

Some have a Traditiion to go hunting and enjoy it, it's a shame some want to take that tradition away from them;)

[Swamp Ghost]

Some have a Traditiion to go hunting and enjoy it, it's a shame some want to take that tradition away from them;)

Who's taking that away? You? Me? North Dakota? The man on the moon? The DNR? The unmotivated?

Are you suggesting that "enjoyment" holds the same meaning for all? ;)

[Munsterlndr]

The OH DNR and OH hunters will never know will they? Neither do you...

Oh, did I mention hunter numbers falling in OH?

Did I mention the increased deer harvest last year? With less hunters! Say it ain't so......


But both the Ohio DNR and I can make a pretty good educated guess. ;) Suffice it to say that the Ohio DNR says that crossbows play an important part in their deer management plan.

Please post the bow hunter numbers from Ohio for the last ten years for us. ;)

Has the overall annual archery harvest fallen in the last ten years with there being fewer hunters? By more than 20,000 deer a year. As bow hunter numbers continue to fall the overall archery harvest will continue to be substantially smaller than it was ten years ago. Let's tell the whole story Swamp. ;)

[Swamp Ghost]

But both the Ohio DNR and I can make a pretty good educated guess. ;) Suffice it to say that the Ohio DNR says that crossbows play an important part in their deer management plan.

Please post the bow hunter numbers from Ohio for the last ten years for us. ;)

Has the overall annual archery harvest fallen in the last ten years with there being fewer hunters? By more than 20,000 deer a year. As bow hunter numbers continue to fall the overall archery harvest will continue to be substantially smaller than it was ten years ago. Let's tell the whole story Swamp. ;)

We are talking about recruiting NEW hunters. Again NEW hunters, once more NEW HUNTERS. We are also talking about retaining current hunters.

None of which has occurred in OH or any other crossbow state.

Suffice it to say the MIDNR see's the bow as an important part in their deer management.

It's safe to say that OH hunters would have turned to the bow if the crossbow wasn't available. Just like in MI and 40 other states.

As the deer herd continues to decrease, I can also see the archery harvest decreasing.

[Munsterlndr]

We are talking about recruiting NEW hunters. Again NEW hunters, once more NEW HUNTERS. We are also talking about retaining current hunters.

None of which has occurred in OH or any other crossbow state.

Suffice it to say the MIDNR see's the bow as an important part in their deer management.

It's safe to say that OH hunters would have turned to the bow if the crossbow wasn't available. Just like in MI and 40 other states.

As the deer herd continues to decrease, I can also see the archery harvest decreasing.

YOU are talking about recruiting new hunters. WE are talking aobut expanding opportunities both for existing hunters and retaining existing bow hunters and recruiting new hunters. All three are important components of helping to stem the flow of diminishing bow hunters.

It is absolutely false that crossbows have not played a role in helping to recruit and retain hunters in other states despite how many times you repeat it. Wisconsin saw an increase in the over 65 license sales demographic after allowing unlimited crossbows for hunters over 65. Illinois introduced unrestricted crossbows for seniors and crossbow sales increased substantially. Were those hunters buying them just to target shoot?

Yes the DNR sees the bow as an important component, one that will diminish in importance as the number of bow hunters diminishes.

The deer herd has not decreased substantially in the last 3 or 4 years, if anything it has increased. Bow hunter numbers, however, continue to diminish. The DNR is no closer to reaching the 1.3 million deer target than they were 5 years ago when it was proposed. Falling hunter numbers will simply make that goal that much harder to reach. Expanding hunter opportunity is the best approach to increasing the number of deer harvested and helping to reduce the herd. You sure don't get there by restricting hunter opportunity which seems to be the approach that you advocate. The DNR recognized this, which is why we now have a September firearms hunt and an expanded late firearms antlerless season. Are you in favor of the encroachment of firearms seasons into more of bow season?

Oh, still waiting for those Ohio hunter numbers. ;)

[Tsmola]

You know, I've just never understood the anti-crossbow crowd. In fact, when I first saw arguements on the subject in magazines and on the internet I was shocked. What is so wrong about a crossbow? It's a tool that can be effectively used for hunting, and they are powerful enough to make a nice clean kill. All it is is a different version of bow. It has limbs, strings, cams and arrows, is it not still a bow?

Is an inline muzzleloader not a true muzzleloader because it doesn't have a flintlock?

That's all it is, a different version of a bow. I have never understood what the big deal is with this. You still have do all the normal aspects of hunting, scouting, setting up stands, etc. The only thing that's different is the weapon. I mean come on, it's not like they are talking about legalizing a rocket launcher for deer hunting, they still have to do all the work of a normal hunter and they still have to make a good shot to get a clean kill.

Yeah, if they are legalized you are gonna see some gun hunters go out and buy them, but it's not like we are gonna have the entire "orange army of Nov. 15th" run out and buy crossbows as soon as they are legalized, that's just silly.

[7MM Magnum]

Gunhunters could care less what weapon is used in gunseason. Why? Because they are at the top of the deer managment food chain. If deer managers WANT to get something done they use the gun to do it.

IF, that's a BIG IF, the deer herd is ever brought into balance, see how quickly gun hunters mobilize to thwart a threat to their season. The mere mention of an antler restriction or a one buck rule whips these guys into a tizzy so fast your head would spin.


Here we go again,... :rolleyes: What tizzy are we speaking of ???

I'm ALSO a gun hunter and I personally could care less regarding an antler restriction. I hunt for the MEAT and you can't eat those antlers. :lol: I predominantly target does in the first place. If I get 1 buck a year I'm doing GOOD!

Now IF I see an exceptional buck traverse past me I'm not saying I wouldn't shoot it,.. my main objective is tasty meat, jerkey, and sausage. :corkysm55

[Swamp Ghost]

The shell game continues, enjoy.:gaga:

[Munsterlndr]

The shell game continues, enjoy.:gaga:

:lol:

In other words.........you've.......got.......nothing! :yikes:

[Swamp Ghost]

http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/articles/2006survey/Survey%202006_files/image010.jpg


I don't see inability to use a crossbow in there.:lol:

[Munsterlndr]

http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/articles/2006survey/Survey%202006_files/image010.jpg


I don't see inability to use a crossbow in there.:lol:

And you honestly don't see crossbows helping to mitigate hunter loss due to "Not enough time", "Family or Work", "Health/Disability"? Wow!

"The primary reason for reduced activity or desertion among active bowhunters is time constraints. Hence, any effort to make bowhunting more accessible, more convenient, or easier would help address the immediate issue of time constraints and the more important issue of hunting in general. Few would argue that the crossbow is much easier to master and remain proficient with than the vertical bow, or that many of the physical limitations imposed by the vertical bow cannot be overcome with the crossbow. Thus, it seems fair to say that the crossbow would help make bowhunting more accessible, easier, and more convenient." Bow hunting: An Important Management tool - Mike Tonkovich, wildlife biologist Ohio DNR.

It would appear that a wildlife professional would certainly disagree with you.

Let's see...... who has credibility on this issue; some guy named Swamp Ghost or a wildlife biologist who is the head of Ohio's deer management team and who has actually harvested deer with both compound bows and crossbows?

Boy, that's a tough one! :lol:

Btw, thanks for posting that chart, what is the source if I may ask? May need to use that one in the future. ;)

[Swamp Ghost]

Let's see "A" wildlife biologist who hunts with a crossbow and who's division has gotten sweet deals from Horton or 40+ states that have a problem with it in bowseason.....

You think a hunter who prefers to hunt with a crossbow in bowseason or a state wildlife organization that allows crossbows in bowseason will produce information damaging to the crossbow? :lol:

Again, crossbow guys can't help themselves , they have to pull the disability card.

OH Res. Annual hunting license sales:

1990- 418,000
1991- 427,000
1992- 401,000
1993- 400,000
1994- 395,000
1995- 394,000
1996- 382,000
1997- 370,000
1998- 351,000
1999- 347,000
2000- 343,000
2001- 343,000
2002- 337,000
2003- 345,000
2004- 331,000
2005- 318,000
2006- 308,000
2007- 299,000


Maybe MI doesn't have it as bad as you think

MI hunting license sales:

2007- 724,000
2006- 734,000
2005- 789,244
2004- 832,835
2003- 863,946
2002- 870,432
2001- 887,235
2000- 897,916
1999- 920,473
1998- 957,264
1997- 952,584
1996- 964,531
1995- 934,430
1994- 1,126,826
1993- 1,140,700
1992- 1,171,721
1991- 1,156,422
1990- 1,148,163

Crossbows can't even be considered a bandaid on OH's bleeding of hunters.

[Swamp Ghost]

Wisconsin saw an increase in the over 65 license sales demographic after allowing unlimited crossbows for hunters over 65. Illinois introduced unrestricted crossbows for seniors and crossbow sales increased substantially.

What were the increases?


The deer herd has not decreased substantially in the last 3 or 4 years, if anything it has increased. Bow hunter numbers, however, continue to diminish. The DNR is no closer to reaching the 1.3 million deer target than they were 5 years ago when it was proposed. Falling hunter numbers will simply make that goal that much harder to reach. Expanding hunter opportunity is the best approach to increasing the number of deer harvested and helping to reduce the herd. You sure don't get there by restricting hunter opportunity which seems to be the approach that you advocate. The DNR recognized this, which is why we now have a September firearms hunt and an expanded late firearms antlerless season. Are you in favor of the encroachment of firearms seasons into more of bow season?

Bow hunter numbers in Michigan have fallen by 80,000 in the last ten years!


It has remained pretty constant over 3-4 years but has dropped substantially over the past 10 especially in the NLP.



As the deer herd continues to decrease, I can also see the archery harvest decreasing.

They have instituted early and late seasons to target the abundant antlerless deer population, not the population as a whole.

Management and regulations is the best way to increase antlerless deer harvest. This state has more recreational deer hunting opportunity than the vast majority of states. It has taken the position that more antlerless permits are the answer, it's clear that approach has not worked, especially in the SLP. More hunter effort is exherted in the SLP than the NLP and the UP combined, yet our deer herd is increasing. The problem is MI's liberal buck regulations. Again a management/regulation issue not a recreational opportunity/weapon issue.

Did I mention that MI's deer harvest increased with less hunters afield?

[Whit1]

Let's see "A" wildlife biologist who hunts with a crossbow and who's division has gotten sweet deals from Horton or 40+ states that have a problem with it in bowseason.....



Jamie,
Your evidence of this is what? Or is this another red herring that you're tossing out like the one when you seemed to support One-Eye's contention that Rep. Sheltrown has taken campaign money from crossbow interests?

It's one thing to disagree with an issue and discuss it in a civil manner, but it's quite another to toss out unfounded accusations such as you have above.

[doublell]

Let's see "A" wildlife biologist who hunts with a crossbow and who's division has gotten sweet deals from Horton or 40+ states that have a problem with it in bowseason.....

You think a hunter who prefers to hunt with a crossbow in bowseason or a state wildlife organization that allows crossbows in bowseason will produce information damaging to the crossbow? :lol:

Again, crossbow guys can't help themselves , they have to pull the disability card.

OH Res. Annual hunting license sales:

1990- 418,000
1991- 427,000
1992- 401,000
1993- 400,000
1994- 395,000
1995- 394,000
1996- 382,000
1997- 370,000
1998- 351,000
1999- 347,000
2000- 343,000
2001- 343,000
2002- 337,000
2003- 345,000
2004- 331,000
2005- 318,000
2006- 308,000
2007- 299,000


Maybe MI doesn't have it as bad as you think

MI hunting license sales:

2007- 724,000
2006- 734,000
2005- 789,244
2004- 832,835
2003- 863,946
2002- 870,432
2001- 887,235
2000- 897,916
1999- 920,473
1998- 957,264
1997- 952,584
1996- 964,531
1995- 934,430
1994- 1,126,826
1993- 1,140,700
1992- 1,171,721
1991- 1,156,422
1990- 1,148,163

Crossbows can't even be considered a bandaid on OH's bleeding of hunters.
Hate to break it to you but according to your stats Michigan has lost 37% of its hunting license sales compared to a loss of 28.5% for Ohio during the same period. I guess if Ohio is bleeding then Michigan is hemorrhaging

[Swamp Ghost]

Jamie,
Your evidence of this is what? Or is this another red herring that you're tossing out like the one when you seemed to support One-Eye's contention that Rep. Sheltrown has taken campaign money from crossbow interests?

It's one thing to disagree with an issue and discuss it in a civil manner, but it's quite another to toss out unfounded accusations such as you have above.

http://www.bowsite.org/bowsite/menu/NEWS/GETNEWS.CFM?ID=973

Crossbow discounts defended: Company gives ODNR employees break on prices; department officials say no ethics rules violated.

The world's largest maker of crossbows offers deep discounts to every employee of the Ohio Department of Natural Resources, the agency that regulates hunting.

Horton allows natural-resources employees to purchase one crossbow a year at half the wholesale price, as well as discounted arrows and other equipment.

One Horton crossbow model, for example, sells for about $250 in stores. dealers pay $210 for them, according to the company. State natural-resources employees pay $105

"Our ethics law would kind of frown on that," said Fred Harders, an assistant director with the Alabama Department of Conservation and Natural Resources.

Georgia legalized crossbow hunting in 2002. Horton donated about a dozen crossbows for hunter-education classes, but state officials declined the employee-discount offer.

"That offer was made, but our state employees are not allowed to take advantage of that," said Capt. Mike England of the Georgia Department of Natural Resources.

[Swamp Ghost]

Hate to break it to you but according to your stats Michigan has lost 37% of its hunting license sales compared to a loss of 28.5% for Ohio during the same period. I guess if Ohio is bleeding then Michigan is hemorrhaging

As are most states.

Is it because of the crossbow, economics, reduction in population, etc.? There is no simple answer

[Whit1]

Thanks for clarification Jamie.

[swoosh]

Who's taking that away? You? Me? North Dakota? The man on the moon? The DNR? The unmotivated?

Are you suggesting that "enjoyment" holds the same meaning for all? ;)


Exactly;) It does not, why we should let folks enjoy hunting, and choose weapons for seasons.

Becareful when you try to "out" tradition someone, because there is always older traditions than yours;)

[Swamp Ghost]

Exactly;) It does not, why we should let folks enjoy hunting, and choose weapons for seasons.

Becareful when you try to "out" tradition someone, because there is always older traditions than yours;)

I'm not trying to "out" tradition anyone. I would be the first one to break any tradition if I saw it as a positive for the deer herd and it's hunters. I'm not interested in a temporary quick fix or a "draw".

I fully support the hunters right to weapon choice. The DNR makes the laws concerning them, not me.

If you want to hunt with a crossbow, have at it. The DNR allows crossbowhunters to hunt in firearms season. I support the right of the "many" :rolleyes: avid crossbow shooters :rolleyes: to use their preferred weapon to hunt deer, just not in bowseason. I support their right to get a season of their own. Just as I support the right of bowhunters to protect their season as set by the DNR.

[wildcoy73]

If you want to hunt with a crossbow, have at it. The DNR allows crossbowhunters to hunt in firearms season. I support the right of the "many" :rolleyes: avid crossbow shooters :rolleyes: to use their preferred weapon to hunt deer, just not in bowseason. I support their right to get a season of their own. Just as I support the right of bowhunters to protect their season as set by the DNR.[/quote]

So swamp, what part of bow season are you willing to give up? the coldest part? the hottest part? or the rut? Well if we are going to give them a season i will vote and fight for november 1st to the 14th.
Why do i support such a hunt. Archery season is long, and i am asking for two weeks for a weapon thaat has no advantage over a compound. Second is to be me and get all those that fight this issue a real look at of it my season and deer. Bet most of the non supportors would rather have them all season than to have to give up november hunt.

[TOW]

http://www.bowsite.org/bowsite/menu/NEWS/GETNEWS.CFM?ID=973

Old news..

Do you actullay think Horton is the only outdoor manufacturer that gives discounts to the DNRs employees and Hunter Education Instructors (often the same people, doing both)?

http://www.floridaconservation.org/huntered/instructor_discounts.htm

[TOW]

....................If you want to hunt with a crossbow, have at it. The DNR allows crossbowhunters to hunt in firearms season. I support the right of the "many" :rolleyes: avid crossbow shooters :rolleyes: to use their preferred weapon to hunt deer, just not in bowseason. I support their right to get a season of their own. Just as I support the right of bowhunters to protect their season as set by the DNR.

The MBHA saw to it that crossbows were put into the firearm season where they would die a quick death. Very, very few hunters would choose a crossbow over a firearm to hunt deer with.

That is absolutely NO different than a huge majority of vertical bowhunters that would choose to pick up a firearm and lay down their vertical bows once the guns started popping.

The September anterless firearm hunt should be a wake up call for all bowhunters.

Take your choice in archery season - a hunting tool that goes BOOM! or a hunting tool that goes thump....

[Swamp Ghost]

So swamp, what part of bow season are you willing to give up? the coldest part? the hottest part? or the rut? Well if we are going to give them a season i will vote and fight for november 1st to the 14th.
Why do i support such a hunt. Archery season is long, and i am asking for two weeks for a weapon thaat has no advantage over a compound. Second is to be me and get all those that fight this issue a real look at of it my season and deer. Bet most of the non supportors would rather have them all season than to have to give up november hunt.

Get with the DNR and NRC and hammer it out. Just like bowhunters did. If it's a crossbow only season, I'll buy a crossbow, I don't care when the dates are.

[Swamp Ghost]

The MBHA saw to it that crossbows were put into the firearm season where they would die a quick death. Very, very few hunters would choose a crossbow over a firearm to hunt deer with.

That is absolutely NO different than a huge majority of vertical bowhunters that would choose to pick up a firearm and lay down their vertical bows once the guns started popping.

The September anterless firearm hunt should be a wake up call for all bowhunters.

Take your choice in archery season - a hunting tool that goes BOOM! or a hunting tool that goes thump....

How is a Sept. antlerless season a "wake up call for all bowhunters"? It's a wake-up call for all hunters.

If the DNR wants to get something accomplished they use the gun. It's a clear sign that the DNR 's herd reduction strategy hasn't worked. Once they figure out the the Sept. season doesn't work, they may even try an Oct. antlerless season (which won't work) that temporarily effects bowseason, they will be forced to focus on reducing buck harvest and even may tweak the gun season dates in order to encourage a much increased and broader antlerless harvest.

[Swamp Ghost]

Old news..

Do you actullay think Horton is the only outdoor manufacturer that gives discounts to the DNRs employees and Hunter Education Instructors (often the same people, doing both)?

http://www.floridaconservation.org/huntered/instructor_discounts.htm

Hunter safety instructors don't direct policy.

[swoosh]

I'm not trying to "out" tradition anyone. I would be the first one to break any tradition if I saw it as a positive for the deer herd and it's hunters. I'm not interested in a temporary quick fix or a "draw".

I fully support the hunters right to weapon choice. The DNR makes the laws concerning them, not me.

If you want to hunt with a crossbow, have at it. The DNR allows crossbowhunters to hunt in firearms season. I support the right of the "many" :rolleyes: avid crossbow shooters :rolleyes: to use their preferred weapon to hunt deer, just not in bowseason. I support their right to get a season of their own. Just as I support the right of bowhunters to protect their season as set by the DNR.

For the record I hate crossbows, LOL I love my fellow hunters;) Even you and OneEye

I am confident enough in my hunting skills to get the Job done, besides I am not scared;)

[Swamp Ghost]

For the record I hate crossbows, LOL I love my fellow hunters;) Even you and OneEye

I am confident enough in my hunting skills to get the Job done, besides I am not scared;)

I don't hate crossbows at all. I feel they don't belong in bowseason and deserve a season of their own.

[Whit1]

I don't hate crossbows at all. I feel they don't belong in bowseason and deserve a season of their own.


Thanks for saying that SG.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

I don't hate crossbows at all. I feel they don't belong in bowseason and deserve a season of their own.

right on! starts october 1st and ends january 2nd

[sputty]

Crossbow inclusion for the entire Mich. archery season will be a victory for us all, as hunters. Then we can unite against the true foe, the anti.(PETA= people eating tasty animals)

[bilili_3]

I don't get it. I have read thread after thread regarding crossbows. It seems as though those with the bows don't want to share the season and those without a bow want to start hunting October 1. If someone wanted to hunt during the bow season so bad, why don’t they just go buy a bow and hunt. With the compound bows and precision sights of today, it doesn't take a rocket scientist much more practice than a couple of weeks to learn how to hit a bull's-eye. I bought a compound bow with a good sight two years ago, practiced for about a month before the archery season and shot a buck both years. It was more work scouting the deer herd, then setting up the tree blind just right, and being in the right place at the right time and then actually pulling back the bow and shooting the deer. Unless of course, crossbows are a lot easier to shoot!:confused:

[wildcoy73]

Strange saying in the above post. I am an avid bowhunter and I will not be giving up my bow when crossbows are allowed. I find my bow easier to shot than a crossbow. I do hunt with a gun but to me I would give up gun hunting in a heart beat to get crossbows allowed, i love the woods being silent during the week, and the challenge in having the deer within 30 yards. That is a big reason I am looking into handguns for gun season, more skill involve to me. the 270 just doesn't do it for me anymore.

[Munsterlndr]

How is a Sept. antlerless season a "wake up call for all bowhunters"?

Here is an answer to your question that was posted by one of the Neanderthals over on that "archery only" forum. ;)


"We do have a tremendous hunter management problem in this state. We do not kill enough female deer. The DNR issues enough tags to reduce the female herd in the areas that need it. Yet we continue to kill far more bucks than doe's. SO it's the attitude of MI hunters that has to change, especially in it's BOW hunters.

As long as MI hunter's refuse to change it's the MI BOW hunter that is going to suffer. Longer firearm seasons, earlier firearm seasons and admission of non-BOWs into BOW season.

MI BOW hunters should be championing new deer management strategies with their existing weapons and seasons. If they don't others will seize on that opportunity to chip away at a season BOW hunters hold so dear. It's already happening and like it our not, it's our fault. "

I'd say that's a pretty good explanation for why it should be a wake-up call to Michigan Bow-hunters, wouldn't you? Oh wait, you already did. :lol:

For once this guy got something right. ;) Well, almost right. That last paragraph should be amended to read: "MI bow hunters should be championing new deer management strategies with new weapons in their existing seasons." :lol:

[swoosh]

I don't hate crossbows at all. I feel they don't belong in bowseason and deserve a season of their own.

I hate them because they are heavy and clunky. I have 0 worth to them for hunting.

I still beleive in choice, why should I push my views on to Whit, you or anyone else.

Someone in the UP can choose to hunt with many differnet types of rifles/guns. Some choices make it way easier, some make it harder. If we are working on the premise hunting has to be "hard" I suggest we only allow shot guns with no scopes. Smooth bore only;)

It's funny a guy can have a rifle with a scope he can shoot a deer 300 yds away. The ammo puts a hole the size of kansas in a deer. The scope can almost be shot at night, and the gun is highend. This guy is a true traditional MI hunter:lol:

[Liv4Huntin']

I don't get it. I have read thread after thread regarding crossbows. It seems as though those with the bows don't want to share the season and those without a bow want to start hunting October 1. If someone wanted to hunt during the bow season so bad, why don’t they just go buy a bow and hunt. confused:

Your posting reflects that if indeed you 'read thread after thread' that either you did not absorb what you read or you read with other than an unbiased position. Please ... there's a lot you apparently missed. You owe it to yourself to make an educated decision.
~ m ~

[Swamp Ghost]

Here is an answer to your question that was posted by one of the Neanderthals over on that "archery only" forum. ;)


"We do have a tremendous hunter management problem in this state. We do not kill enough female deer. The DNR issues enough tags to reduce the female herd in the areas that need it. Yet we continue to kill far more bucks than doe's. SO it's the attitude of MI hunters that has to change, especially in it's BOW hunters.

As long as MI hunter's refuse to change it's the MI BOW hunter that is going to suffer. Longer firearm seasons, earlier firearm seasons and admission of non-BOWs into BOW season.

MI BOW hunters should be championing new deer management strategies with their existing weapons and seasons. If they don't others will seize on that opportunity to chip away at a season BOW hunters hold so dear. It's already happening and like it our not, it's our fault. "

I'd say that's a pretty good explanation for why it should be a wake-up call to Michigan Bow-hunters, wouldn't you? Oh wait, you already did. :lol:

For once this guy got something right. ;) Well, almost right. That last paragraph should be amended to read: "MI bow hunters should be championing new deer management strategies with new weapons in their existing seasons." :lol:


There's my stalker again. The MBH should be on board with an OBR or other buck harvest reduction strategy sooner rather than later. If they had been on sooner we wouldn't have an early antlerless season. Buck harvest reduction is coming. It may even take the DNR moving the holy grail of the firearm opener from the 15th of Nov. before they get to an OBR or DMU based buck permit system. It will start with bowseason just because it's convienent and the season is fairly long. Next it will be the gunhunters paying the piper.

[TG2002]

I hunt with a crossbow because I'm not able to pull a compound. a for the big advantage,I would like you to take your rifle, get good brand of duct tape, tape your bow on it and stalk squril in the back yard. You must get within bow range,crossbow has same effective range.