Hey crossbow advocate. You want MI to be more like Ohio?

[Erik]

I might actually could go along with that. But something tells me, once you understand what that really means, most of you will change your mind ;)


http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/News/NewsReleaseArchivesII/tabid/19075/EntryID/434/Default.aspx

[marty]

I don't undertand how this can be. All the experts claim the season will be shortned and bag limits will be reduced if crossbows are allowed???:confused:

[November Sunrise]

I'm unclear what your point is Erik. Ohio has always offered a much longer archery season and a much shorter firearm season as compared to Michigan. The majority of their deer kill results from firearm seasons, just as it does in every state. The director of their big game department is on record as saying that they consider multiple short firearm seasons to be more effective in herd control as compared to long extended seasons. Anyway, there's nothing in their season structure that is a result of crossbow use.

As an aside, I love their season structure. I hunt in Ohio and enjoy the fact that I can hunt with archery equipment through Thanksgiving weekend before the firearm season opens, and I thoroughly enjoy January bow hunting as well.

[brdhntr]

I'm with November. Been hunting under those regs for 3 yrs. I spend almost as much time in OH as I do in MI, now, and will continue to spend more time there now that my son can hunt in OH with a firearm, but cannot in MI. Yes, I do wish MI was more like OH in their regs.

[swoosh]

I might actually could go along with that. But something tells me, once you understand what that really means, most of you will change your mind ;)


http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/News/NewsReleaseArchivesII/tabid/19075/EntryID/434/Default.aspx

I'd argue your point, but I cannot:lol:

[weatherby]

I would go for it, but I would like the season to open Septenmber 1st other than close february 1st because I think alot of bucks that dropped their horns would get shot

[wildcoy73]

Erik:
Why would that change my mind about crossbows? Longer season about the same number of tags, i do not get the point. They have the use of crossbows so where did it hurt the season?

[Erik]

So I take it all you crossbow advocates want a longer bow season and shorter gun seasons???

Oh puleeze!

First of all I don't believe any of you would stand for such a short gun season, let alone a one buck per season rule. But if you all are willin I'm more than game. And whats more I know plenty of other bow hunters who would be too.
13 days of firearm and muzzleloader seasons combined and slightly more than 4 months of bow season? Combine all this with the fact that Ohio sells about half the licenses that MI does and heck yeah I can see why no one is complaining about crossbows down there.

Kinda makes you wonder though. MI doesn't even really compare here does it?
Not even close if you ask me.

[skipper34]

So I take it all you crossbow advocates want a longer bow season and shorter gun seasons???

Oh puleeze!

First of all I don't believe any of you would stand for such a short gun season, let alone a one buck per season rule. But if you all are willin I'm more than game. And whats more I know plenty of other bow hunters who would be too.
13 days of firearm and muzzleloader seasons combined and slightly more than 4 months of bow season? Combine all this with the fact that Ohio sells about half the licenses that MI does and heck yeah I can see why no one is complaining about crossbows down there.

Kinda makes you wonder though. MI doesn't even really compare here does it?
Not even close if you ask me.

If you truly believe that "all" advocates think alike, then you really don't have a clue. I for one couldn't care less about the seasons changing. My beef in all of this is the fact that there are some who would be so bogue as to want to limit the opportunity of others simply because of their ideas and opinions being different. In other words, "I don't like it so therefore nobody should like it". Pretty immature attitude in my opinion.

[hypox]

If you truly believe that "all" advocates think alike, then you really don't have a clue. I for one couldn't care less about the seasons changing. My beef in all of this is the fact that there are some who would be so bogue as to want to limit the opportunity of others simply because of their ideas and opinions being different. In other words, "I don't like it so therefore nobody should like it". Pretty immature attitude in my opinion.



Your right, that's why I'm hunting deer with nuclear bombs this year. I'll have limited opportunities and want to make sure to get one because that is my right as a voting member of Michigan.

Give me a break. Are you really as near sighted as your post sounded?

Pretty uneducated/it doesn't effect me attitude in my opinion.

[wildcoy73]

I for one do not mind a short gun season. only get out a few days during the gun season as it is now. That all changes when i pick up the bow, than I am out in the woods everyday. But why would a longer season change the mind of you being against crossbows? A shorter gun season and a longer bow season would bring more people to the archery season. I say leave the seasons alone for dates, and just allow crossbows during the archery season.

[November Sunrise]

So I take it all you crossbow advocates want a longer bow season and shorter gun seasons???

Oh puleeze!

First of all I don't believe any of you would stand for such a short gun season, let alone a one buck per season rule. But if you all are willin I'm more than game. And whats more I know plenty of other bow hunters who would be too.
13 days of firearm and muzzleloader seasons combined and slightly more than 4 months of bow season? Combine all this with the fact that Ohio sells about half the licenses that MI does and heck yeah I can see why no one is complaining about crossbows down there.

Kinda makes you wonder though. MI doesn't even really compare here does it?
Not even close if you ask me.

It still seems that you're suggesting that crossbows are integral to Ohio's season structure. They aren't - they're irrelevant to their season structure. Pick up the phone and call Mike Tonkovich who heads Ohio's big game department if you need validation of that point.

Numerous midwestern states including Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois, Iowa, etc have longer archery seasons and shorter firearm seasons than MI. There's nothing newsworthy about that fact and it has nothing to do with whether or not they permit crossbow use.

I'd encourage you to familiarize yourself with the percentage of the total deer harvest that comes from archery hunters as compared to firearm hunters in any state, and that way you'll be spared in the future from trying to make specious arguments about season structure in relation to crossbow legalization.

[skipper34]

Your right, that's why I'm hunting deer with nuclear bombs this year. I'll have limited opportunities and want to make sure to get one because that is my right as a voting member of Michigan.

Give me a break. Are you really as near sighted as your post sounded?

Pretty uneducated/it doesn't effect me attitude in my opinion.

I don't see how your quote of my post has anything to do with what you posted? Read it again, only slower.

[M1Garand]

So I take it all you crossbow advocates want a longer bow season and shorter gun seasons???

Oh puleeze!

First of all I don't believe any of you would stand for such a short gun season, let alone a one buck per season rule. But if you all are willin I'm more than game. And whats more I know plenty of other bow hunters who would be too.
13 days of firearm and muzzleloader seasons combined and slightly more than 4 months of bow season? Combine all this with the fact that Ohio sells about half the licenses that MI does and heck yeah I can see why no one is complaining about crossbows down there.

Kinda makes you wonder though. MI doesn't even really compare here does it?
Not even close if you ask me.

Actually I support shortening/splitting our firearm season. And I guessing you meant OBR (per year, not season)? I support that also. Do that and we would see the potential MI has. And Ohio has 300k archery hunters...but about 300k less firearm hunters then us. But their licenses also cost much more. Residents pay $19 for hunting license....$24 for deer permit...then on top of that, $15 for antlerless.

[brdhntr]

First of all I don't believe any of you would stand for such a short gun season, let alone a one buck per season rule. But if you all are willin I'm more than game. And whats more I know plenty of other bow hunters who would be too.


You would be wrong.

[Swamp Ghost]

That's why using OH as the "poster child" for unrestricted crossbow use in MI is absurd.

I wonder how the OH crossbowhunters would feel about allowing handguns into their season?

I bet most of em wouldn't care, they would just start hunting with one.....

[Hungry Wolf]

They are all for choice- As long as its only a crossbow thats added... Some might argue that "Well as long as it doesn't effect other hunters" like a handgun or nuclear bombs would.

OK- how about a computer controlled archery device? (I believe this was/is a real issue recently (Texas?)- INTERNET HUNTING)

Why can't I sit in my air conditioned house and use my computer?

1. Won't effect other hunters.
2. It IS archery after all. (I would operate a computer controlled compound)
3. Could be used as an accommodation for disabled hunters.
4. Could bring new hunters into the woods... errr... Sport.
5. Useful tool for deer management.
6. More money into the economy.
7. You may say it has an advantage but who cares how you kill your deer?
8. I should be able to choose what weapon I use!
9. Statisically the same success rate? (guess?? I don't know but me thinks its harder than is sounds)

What say you unrestricted crossbow advocates? Might you be forced to draw a line? Heaven Forbid! Keep in mind I could use most, if not all your arguments to justify my internet hunting that you use for crossbows...

EDIT: Here you go- just replace the .22 with some type of 'archery' equipment.
http://www.engadget.com/2004/11/17/internet-hunting-coming-to-texas/

[Munsterlndr]

Wow guys, you seem to have run out of any legitimate points and have fallen back on the old reductio ad absurdum technique. :lol:

What if, what if, what if.......


The sky is falling and it's all because of the crossbow! :lol:

[Hungry Wolf]

Wow guys, you seem to have run out of any legitimate points and have fallen back on the old reductio ad absurdum technique. :lol:

What if, what if, what if.......


The sky is falling and it's all because of the crossbow! :lol:

Yet, another intelligent, but amusing post. they just keep getting better:help: Some real rocket scientists we have here.:confused:

You guys are not answering the questions...
You guys started it with 'what about crossbows'.
Now we are asking 'what about our weapon of choice'.
The weapons all have advantages and disadvantages.
DO WE, OR DO WE NOT DRAW LINES???
Can you sputty out an answer or not? :lol:

[brdhntr]

You guys are not answering the questions...
You guys started it with 'what about crossbows'.
Now we are asking 'what about our weapon of choice'.
The weapons all have advantages and disadvantages.
DO WE, OR DO WE NOT DRAW LINES???
Can you sputty out an answer or not? :lol:

Simple, archery equipment in archery season, firearm equipment in firearm season. Not all that hard for most folks to comprehend.

[specificgravity]

Simple, archery equipment in archery season, firearm equipment in firearm season. Not all that hard for most folks to comprehend.

Different types of firearms have different seasons and it is because they are different types of weapons. How they are categorized is where our opinions conflict. Not really all that hard to comprehend.

[swoosh]

Different types of firearms have different seasons and it is because they are different types of weapons. How they are categorized is where our opinions conflict. Not really all that hard to comprehend.

That is a great idea

Like Firearms has a General Gun and Muzzleloader season
We can have General Archery and a CrossBow season:lol:

Great thinking man:)

[specificgravity]

Wow guys, you seem to have run out of any legitimate points and have fallen back on the old reductio ad absurdum technique. :lol:

What if, what if, what if.......


The sky is falling and it's all because of the crossbow! :lol:

I still believe we have a legitimate point about being a different weapon. They possess some of the same technology but the differences have been pointed out and even acknowledged on both sides. You may not agree that the differences amount to enough to justify our opinion but that doesn't make them not legitimate.

[specificgravity]

That is a great idea

Like Firearms has a General Gun and Muzzleloader season
We can have General Archery and a CrossBow season:lol:

Great thinking man:)

Thanks, I pride myself on being a compromiser. :)

[November Sunrise]

Thanks, I pride myself on being a compromiser. :)

Love your signature line specificgravity. Funny and true.

[Erik]

It still seems that you're suggesting that crossbows are integral to Ohio's season structure. They aren't - they're irrelevant to their season structure. Pick up the phone and call Mike Tonkovich who heads Ohio's big game department if you need validation of that point.

Numerous midwestern states including Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois, Iowa, etc have longer archery seasons and shorter firearm seasons than MI. There's nothing newsworthy about that fact and it has nothing to do with whether or not they permit crossbow use.

I'd encourage you to familiarize yourself with the percentage of the total deer harvest that comes from archery hunters as compared to firearm hunters in any state, and that way you'll be spared in the future from trying to make specious arguments about season structure in relation to crossbow legalization.


Actually I never said Ohio's hunting seasons were structured around the crossbow. My point was that having 4 months of archery season and only 13 days of firearm season leaves an awful lot of room for adding crossbows to the archery season. If MI's seasons were anything similar to Ohio's I doubt you would hear much from folks about adding crossbows to the archery season. I know I'm hard to understand sometimes, but some people here seem to understand my point.

Wow guys, you seem to have run out of any legitimate points and have fallen back on the old reductio ad absurdum technique.

What if, what if, what if.......


The sky is falling and it's all because of the crossbow!


Actually I believe the point I am making is very legitimate. Whats more I believe the statements I just quoted from you are exactly the sort of thing you are accusing others of. Nothing more than condescending remarks directed at those who disagree with you in the hopes that it will defer attention away from the actual "legitimate" point that started this discussion.

[Munsterlndr]

Actually I never said Ohio's hunting seasons were structured around the crossbow. My point was that having 4 months of archery season and only 13 days of firearm season leaves an awful lot of room for adding crossbows to the archery season. If MI's seasons were anything similar to Ohio's I doubt you would hear much from folks about adding crossbows to the archery season. I know I'm hard to understand sometimes, but some people here seem to understand my point.
Yeah, right. The boys from MBH and MTB would still be whining about those damn crossbows ruining bow season if it was year round. :lol:

Actually I believe the point I am making is very legitimate. Whats more I believe the statements I just quoted from you are exactly the sort of thing you are accusing others of. Nothing more than condescending remarks directed at those who disagree with you in the hopes that it will defer attention away from the actual "legitimate" point that started this discussion.
Hardly a legitimate argument because you are trying to equate a totally different hunting concept with a personal choice of weapon. Two dramatically different things. Now if you wanted to compare remote hunting over the computer using both firearms and bows and wanted to try and draw some distinction between the two, it would be a legitimate discussion but you are comparing apples to oranges.

As far as drawing lines between seasons, here is a pretty easy distinction to draw. If it goes boom it's in one of the existing firearms seasons. If it does not go boom and uses a bladed projectile then it should be legal in archery season. That means bows, crossbows, atl atl's, throwing knives, or spearguns, whatever you want to use as long as it can cleanly and humanly harvest a deer and does not use either the combustion of gunpowder or the release of compressed air, you are good to go. Pretty simple, huh? ;)

Again, you guys get way to tied up in form over function.

[November Sunrise]

Actually I never said Ohio's hunting seasons were structured around the crossbow. My point was that having 4 months of archery season and only 13 days of firearm season leaves an awful lot of room for adding crossbows to the archery season. If MI's seasons were anything similar to Ohio's I doubt you would hear much from folks about adding crossbows to the archery season. I know I'm hard to understand sometimes, but some people here seem to understand my point.


OK - I understand your point now. I don't agree, but I understand:D. Check your PM's.

[eddiejohn4]

I am a cross bow advocate. I do however want it to be part of the bow season already in place as it is a bow!!. no extra season.

[swampbuck]

I am begining to think that a 3 month all weapons season is the way to go. currently we have bows and muzzle loader allowed during firearm season and bows in muzzle season. lets make it a general deer season from oct1 -dec.31. :D

[Whit1]

I am begining to think that a 3 month all weapons season is the way to go. currently we have bows and muzzle loader allowed during firearm season and bows in muzzle season. lets make it a general deer season from oct1 -dec.31. :D


Bad Swampbuck! Bad! Now it's time for you to go sit in yon corner of the room........:lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

lets make it a general deer season from oct1 -dec.31. :D

LOL! I Got news for ya, that season would be about 9 days long with our current regulations.

So much for recreational opportunity.....

[Swamp Ghost]

As far as drawing lines between seasons, here is a pretty easy distinction to draw. If it goes boom it's in one of the existing firearms seasons. If it does not go boom and uses a bladed projectile then it should be legal in archery season. That means bows, crossbows, atl atl's, throwing knives, or spearguns, whatever you want to use as long as it can cleanly and humanly harvest a deer and does not use either the combustion of gunpowder or the release of compressed air, you are good to go. Pretty simple, huh? ;)

Again, you guys get way to tied up in form over function.

Remember?

I wonder how the OH crossbowhunters would feel about allowing handguns into their season?


Essentially asking, what the effect on the crossbow community would be if handguns were allowed into bowseason.

Would they think it would be good for crossbowhunting? Or would handgun legalization remove some vitality from OH's crossbowhunting community?

Nice bit of misdirection, but you failed to answer the question.

Crossbows would effect MI's bowhunters the same way handguns would effect OH crossbowhunters.

[Munsterlndr]

Remember?


Essentially asking, what the effect on the crossbow community would be if handguns were allowed into bowseason.

Would they think it would be good for crossbowhunting? Or would handgun legalization remove some vitality from OH's crossbowhunting community?

Nice bit of misdirection, but you failed to answer the question.

Crossbows would effect MI's bowhunters the same way handguns would effect OH crossbowhunters.

Swamp, I know this is difficult for you to understand but handguns go boom and crossbows do not. As a result your assertion that handguns in crossbow season would have the same impact as crossbows in archery season is just plain flat out wrong. Introducing any weapon that makes noise into a season that was previously a silent season is going to have an adverse impact on the previously silent season. Guns going off will spook deer and change travel patterns a mile away. The deer are not going to have a similar reaction to someone on the next 40 shooting a crossbow. Pretty simple stuff, really.

Keep trying, though. Maybe one of these days you will come up with a legitimate reason for keeping crossbows out of archery season. :lol:

Oh and by the way, in Michigan crossbow hunters already have to share their season with handguns, maybe now you can understand why some would like the chance to share a season with other silent weapons instead? ;)

[Leader]

Originally Posted by Swamp Ghost
"I wonder how the OH crossbowhunters would feel about allowing handguns into their season? "

Probably the same as if guns were allowed in Michigans "BOW" season.
The *Hunters* that use compound bows would drop them like hot potatos & buy handguns. Crossbows wouldn't be an issue anymore.
The real bow hunters wouldn't change or care.

[wildcoy73]

Hungry wolf,
you seem to be off track on this one. We are not drawing a line on legal methods of hunting, crossbows are allowed in the state of michigan, unlike your internet hunt. Michigan does not allow electronics calls and electric decoys in the woods for hunting and that is what the internet would be. What michigan does allow is the crossbow to be used by all during firearm season and by a select few during archery season. So what we are after is expanding a weapon that is already in use, not adding a whole new item into the woods.
Talked with my senator yesterday, and he has heard of this battle and has stated he will take a look into it. he has been given this website to see what we think, and to see the pros and cons. He also stated to myself that to allow one group to use a crossbow and not another seems to be borderline tatics, and he will be helping us to end the restrictions on the crossbow.

[Swamp Ghost]

Swamp, I know this is difficult for you to understand but handguns go boom and crossbows do not. As a result your assertion that handguns in crossbow season would have the same impact as crossbows in archery season is just plain flat out wrong. Introducing any weapon that makes noise into a season that was previously a silent season is going to have an adverse impact on the previously silent season. Guns going off will spook deer and change travel patterns a mile away. The deer are not going to have a similar reaction to someone on the next 40 shooting a crossbow. Pretty simple stuff, really.

Keep trying, though. Maybe one of these days you will come up with a legitimate reason for keeping crossbows out of archery season. :lol:

Oh and by the way, in Michigan crossbow hunters already have to share their season with handguns, maybe now you can understand why some would like the chance to share a season with other silent weapons instead? ;)

Well you'll make it real easy for the DNR, they can determine the legal weapon for any given season based on the noise they make :lol:

We are tied up on form and you are tied up on sound.:dizzy::lol::16suspect

[Swamp Ghost]

Hungry wolf,
you seem to be off track on this one. We are not drawing a line on legal methods of hunting, crossbows are allowed in the state of michigan, unlike your internet hunt. Michigan does not allow electronics calls and electric decoys in the woods for hunting and that is what the internet would be. What michigan does allow is the crossbow to be used by all during firearm season and by a select few during archery season. So what we are after is expanding a weapon that is already in use, not adding a whole new item into the woods.


Thank GOD for the MBH

http://www.michiganbowhunters.com/about.asp

[eddiejohn4]

Munster I could not agree more, does it matter guys? Killing is killing as I have stated many times. During bow if you use a bowdoes it really matter if traditional ,compound or cross it is a bow, and the deer end up a meal. Somehow I cannot imagine our fore fathers sitting around the camp fire, discussing just what the %$$## are you doing using that to kill your meat.

Lets help onwe another as we all are hun ters period. follow the season with the weapon that fits.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

I still believe we have a legitimate point about being a different weapon. They possess some of the same technology but the differences have been pointed out and even acknowledged on both sides. You may not agree that the differences amount to enough to justify our opinion but that doesn't make them not legitimate.

OPINIONS ARE JUST THAT OPINIONS and facts are facts. i still haven't heard ANY FACTS supporting the anti crossbow side in over 500 posts. one would think you could at least have ONE! not even the head clowns of MBH can provide one single fact before congress or GOD, opinions/myths/scare tactics/the sky is falling/ flat out LIES, come on just give me 1 fact and i'll buy all the girl scout cookies for you.:lol::lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

OPINIONS ARE JUST THAT OPINIONS and facts are facts. i still haven't heard ANY FACTS supporting the anti crossbow side in over 500 posts. one would think you could at least have ONE! not even the head clowns of MBH can provide one single fact before congress or GOD, opinions/myths/scare tactics/the sky is falling/ flat out LIES, come on just give me 1 fact and i'll buy all the girl scout cookies for you.:lol::lol:


So a wildlife biologists, who hunts with a crossbow, opinion is fact?

There has not been one FACT supporting why MI NEEDS unrestricted crossbows in bowseason, not one.

[sullyxlh]

There has not been one FACT supporting why MI NEEDS unrestricted crossbows in bowseason, not one.With all the stories you hear about "sound shooters" during a gun season wether it be spring bird or fall deer,
then you get those types of hunters using crossbows during an all camo season,
that as a pretty scary fact....

I can see that type of accident rate going higher than treestand accidents,
not a fact but definitely attainable...

[madmike22]

I think we should have a shorter gun season also. I think it would be more productive. More people would make sure they are out there opening day than wait for the second weekend or later. I also think we should be paying more for our licenses. I have no problem paying what the ohio residents pay. I would pay even more.

[Liv4Huntin']

With all the stories you hear about "sound shooters" during a gun season wether it be spring bird or fall deer,
then you get those types of hunters using crossbows during an all camo season,
that as a pretty scary fact....

I can see that type of accident rate going higher than treestand accidents,
not a fact but definitely attainable...

Sorry, sullyxlh...... that is STILL hypothetical .......Not a fact.
~ m ~

[wildcoy73]

With all the stories you hear about "sound shooters" during a gun season wether it be spring bird or fall deer,
then you get those types of hunters using crossbows during an all camo season,
that as a pretty scary fact....

I can see that type of accident rate going higher than treestand accidents,
not a fact but definitely attainable...
sound shooters on a crossbow scares you. you must be afraid to go to the woods. my compound will out shoot any crossbow made for hunting. If you don't believe me we can go to the range and you will see the truth. The crossbow is just another bow. It has no more power than a compound bow.

[Liv4Huntin']

With all the stories you hear about "sound shooters" during a gun season wether it be spring bird or fall deer,
then you get those types of hunters using crossbows during an all camo season,
that as a pretty scary fact....

I can see that type of accident rate going higher than treestand accidents,
not a fact but definitely attainable...

Sounds like just another 'fear tactic' to me. Doesn't wash.
~ m ~

[Swamp Monster]

sound shooters on a crossbow scares you. you must be afraid to go to the woods. my compound will out shoot any crossbow made for hunting. If you don't believe me we can go to the range and you will see the truth. The crossbow is just another bow. It has no more power than a compound bow.

No doubt compounds are far more effective...todays compounds offer more KE at greater distances than even the fasted crossbows. The thought that some have that the crossbow is a long range tool is a farce, they are strictly a short range weapon. No argument there from me. But, the differences are stark when it comes to actual ease of use. One aspect of archery hunting (real archery hunting imo) is the fact that even with high let off bows, one must still draw on approaching game, no easy task with regularity. Crossbows are already cocked thereby requiring less skill in the field. One must hold a compound bow at full draw, and at least achieve full draw with recurve or long bow and thats not the case with a crossbow. Crossbows take less practice to be proficient (and yes I've shot them...first three shots with scope were in the bullseye at 30 yards). There's other differences but you've likely heard them all before. Alot of talk is about hunter oppurtunity but it's nothing but a sound byte. Crossbows will not offer more oppurtunity because the oppurtunity to participate in archery season already exists. Some choose to make the effort to get proficient with archery gear, some don't. In all but a few cases, thats a personal choice. Now, as for disabilities or seniors, I'm all for them getting that oppurtunity and we need to streamline that process. I'm not worried about "sharing my season" as some will no doubt suggest but I will be a bit concerned about just who I will be sharing that season with....the same feel many have during the general firearms season. Considering that the crossbow feels, handles, aims, and shoots (albeit it much, much shorter range) like a weapon used in the general firearms season, one can understand why.
I guess at the end of the day I'm not sure taking the "make it easy" route is the best route and would rather see changes in our wildlife management that would improve our hunting, improve our access, and in the end, improve our oppurtunities. I don't see legalizing crossbows as an answer to those issues.

[Munsterlndr]

I guess at the end of the day I'm not sure taking the "make it easy" route is the best route .

C'mon Swamp, unless you are talking about hanging up your Encore, your scoped rifle or your compound this year and hunting with a flintlock and a stickbow, then this rings a little hollow. ;)

The relative advantage that your in-line Encore has over a traditional hawken, which was the standard when muzzleloading season began, far exceeds the functional difference between a crossbow and todays compound bows.

Knowing what a "gearhead" that you are when it comes to taking advantage of new technology, I'm having a hard time understanding your opposition to crossbows, based on the "too easy" approach. The blade of an arrow fired from a crossbow kills in the same manner as one fired from a compound.

[TOW]

No doubt compounds are far more effective...todays compounds offer more KE at greater distances than even the fasted crossbows. The thought that some have that the crossbow is a long range tool is a farce, they are strictly a short range weapon. No argument there from me. But, the differences are stark when it comes to actual ease of use. One aspect of archery hunting (real archery hunting imo) is the fact that even with high let off bows, one must still draw on approaching game, no easy task with regularity. Crossbows are already cocked thereby requiring less skill in the field. One must hold a compound bow at full draw, and at least achieve full draw with recurve or long bow and thats not the case with a crossbow. Crossbows take less practice to be proficient (and yes I've shot them...first three shots with scope were in the bullseye at 30 yards). There's other differences but you've likely heard them all before. Alot of talk is about hunter oppurtunity but it's nothing but a sound byte. Crossbows will not offer more oppurtunity because the oppurtunity to participate in archery season already exists. Some choose to make the effort to get proficient with archery gear, some don't. In all but a few cases, thats a personal choice. Now, as for disabilities or seniors, I'm all for them getting that oppurtunity and we need to streamline that process. I'm not worried about "sharing my season" as some will no doubt suggest but I will be a bit concerned about just who I will be sharing that season with....the same feel many have during the general firearms season. Considering that the crossbow feels, handles, aims, and shoots (albeit it much, much shorter range) like a weapon used in the general firearms season, one can understand why.
I guess at the end of the day I'm not sure taking the "make it easy" route is the best route and would rather see changes in our wildlife management that would improve our hunting, improve our access, and in the end, improve our oppurtunities. I don't see legalizing crossbows as an answer to those issues.
.


Shoot with ease - shoot with 99% let off!

http://www.conceptarchery.com/




.
Crossbows in the firearm season does NOTHING for anyone.. It will not help manage deer. It will not help to recruit new hunters. It will not retain older hunters. It will not generate any revenues. Keeping crossbows in the firearm seoasn accomplishes nothing.

Why? Because almost every Michigan hunter leaves the archery equipment at home on the firearm opener. Relegating crossbows to firearm season only is sentencing crossbows to death. That is why the old Ad Hoc Crossbow Committe put them there.The same would happen if vertical bowhunters could only go afield with their bows during the firearm season. Besides crossbows are NOT firearms.






.

[TOW]

inally Posted by sullyxlh http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2159523#post2159523)
With all the stories you hear about "sound shooters" during a gun season wether it be spring bird or fall deer,
then you get those types of hunters using crossbows during an all camo season,
that as a pretty scary fact....

I can see that type of accident rate going higher than treestand accidents,
not a fact but definitely attainable...


The safety stats for crossbows and compounds is pretty well equal in Ohio.

We are still more likely to get killed driving to where hunt than by ANY hunting accident - no matter what hunting tool we are using...

[Leader]

Com'On guys... Just get your CrossGUN, buy some 18" bullets and go hunting with the rest of the gun hunters where you belong. Don't forget your ear plugs.

[Swamp Monster]

C'mon Swamp, unless you are talking about hanging up your Encore, your scoped rifle or your compound this year and hunting with a flintlock and a stickbow, then this rings a little hollow. ;)

The relative advantage that your in-line Encore has over a traditional hawken, which was the standard when muzzleloading season began, far exceeds the functional difference between a crossbow and todays compound bows.

Knowing what a "gearhead" that you are when it comes to taking advantage of new technology, I'm having a hard time understanding your opposition to crossbows, based on the "too easy" approach. The blade of an arrow fired from a crossbow kills in the same manner as one fired from a compound.

I understand what your saying. I do like gear and I do like technology. That said, I wouldn't have an issue if our muzzleloading season turned into a traditional season. I just sold a recurve, but I have and will likely hunt with one again someday. But therin lies the difference. I would choose to accept those rules and the challenges they present so I could have such an oppurtunity. I don't need someone to legalize the technology so I can take advantage of an oppurtunity that already exists....and the point is the oppurtunity already exists! The too easy part is part of the problem but not because I think too many deer will be killed etc, etc or that they will be anymore efficient etc. My concern is that yes, we may attract more to the woods which I'm fine with, but again, just who will we be attracting? This is my concern. And every hunter that has experience in the field (especially our general firearms season) knows exactly what I mean. Our muzzleloading season is already headed in that direction.
Again, for seniors and those with disabilities, we need to find a way to keep them in the field or get them in the field and I'm all for crossbows for those that need them. Those rules need to be adjused and streamlined.

[TOW]

Why would anyone want to be like Ohio?

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/9/hunting/BBBC/Images/news_brad_todd_mike.jpg



85% let off bow… P & Y World Record Non-Typical

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/hunting__trapping/HuntingandTrappingSubhomePage/BuckeyeBigBuckClub/BBBCBeatty/tabid/18776/Default.aspx (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/hunting__trapping/HuntingandTrappingSubhomePage/BuckeyeBigBuckClub/BBBCBeatty/tabid/18776/Default.aspx)


World Record Crossbow Typical

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/hunting__trapping/HuntingandTrappingSubhomePage/BuckeyeBigBuckClub/BBBCJerman/tabid/18815/Default.aspx

[Swamp Monster]

.


Shoot with ease - shoot with 99% let off!

http://www.conceptarchery.com/


.

Yep, I'm familiar with concept archery and their line of bows. I've never seen one in the field though and neither have most people......because they don't sell a lot of bows. There's more people in Michigan shooting crossbows than there are are archers shooting Concept brand compund bows. There's a reason that the concept has not taken over the bow industry....most shooters shoot better with some sort of holding weight to steady the shot. They are a decent bow, but they haven't and will not take the archery world by storm. (They've been on the market for about 4 years now and their market share would still be measured with decimal places.......)

[Munsterlndr]

Com'On guys... Just get your CrossGUN, buy some 18" bullets and go hunting with the rest of the gun hunters where you belong. Don't forget your ear plugs.

I'm sensing that someone lacks a fundamental understanding of physics, mechanics, history and vocabulary. The good news is that remedial education is available, even for adults. It's never too late! :lol:

(Psst. CrossBows predated the invention of firearms by a good 1,000 years.) ;)

[Swamp Monster]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=3]Why would anyone want to be like Ohiohttp://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/hunting__trapping/HuntingandTrappingSubhomePage/BuckeyeBigBuckClub/BBBCJerman/tabid/18815/Default.aspx

I would....one buck, short gun season, less public land, and half as many deer hunters. Yep, smart folk can see the comparisons to Michigan.....
Oh, and yes, I hunt Ohio....with a compound bow and a muzzleloader.

[TOW]

I would....one buck, short gun season, less public land, and half as many deer hunters. Yep, smart folk can see the comparisons to Michigan.....
Oh, and yes, I hunt Ohio....with a compound bow and a muzzleloader.

You forgot to include crossbows in that mix.

Not exactly the "herd decimator" that the antis say it is, right?

[cadillacjethro]

I understand what your saying. I do like gear and I do like technology. That said, I wouldn't have an issue if our muzzleloading season turned into a traditional season. I just sold a recurve, but I have and will likely hunt with one again someday. But therin lies the difference. I would choose to accept those rules and the challenges they present so I could have such an oppurtunity. I don't need someone to legalize the technology so I can take advantage of an oppurtunity that already exists....and the point is the oppurtunity already exists! The too easy part is part of the problem but not because I think too many deer will be killed etc, etc or that they will be anymore efficient etc. My concern is that yes, we may attract more to the woods which I'm fine with, but again, just who will we be attracting? This is my concern. And every hunter that has experience in the field (especially our general firearms season) knows exactly what I mean. Our muzzleloading season is already headed in that direction.
Again, for seniors and those with disabilities, we need to find a way to keep them in the field or get them in the field and I'm all for crossbows for those that need them. Those rules need to be adjused and streamlined.

If you don't get them off the couch you stand no chance at all. If one were to choose to hunt with a crossbow in archery season, putting more time in to become proficient with the shot and spending more time scouting in preparation for the season, how would you feel then? I've bow hunted for more than 20 years and releasing the arrow has always been a small part of my bow hunting experience.

[Swamp Monster]

You forgot to include crossbows in that mix.

Not exactly the "herd decimator" that the antis say it is, right?

You forgot to factor in half as many deer to begin with and half as many deer hunters. Pretty pertinant info don't you think?

Continue to compare apples to oranges if you choose but it certainly is not helping your argument. And never once did I claim crossbows to be herd decimators, I just claimed them to be easy to use....easy enough for the guy that dusts his old rifle off the night before the season to do the same exact thing with his crossbow or his neighbors crossbow etc since they do not require much in the way of personal fitment etc. They certainly require no practice. 20 minutes to sight in (for someone really green) and then off to the woods.

[Munsterlndr]

I understand what your saying. I do like gear and I do like technology. That said, I wouldn't have an issue if our muzzleloading season turned into a traditional season. I just sold a recurve, but I have and will likely hunt with one again someday. But therin lies the difference. I would choose to accept those rules and the challenges they present so I could have such an oppurtunity. I don't need someone to legalize the technology so I can take advantage of an oppurtunity that already exists....and the point is the oppurtunity already exists! The too easy part is part of the problem but not because I think too many deer will be killed etc, etc or that they will be anymore efficient etc. My concern is that yes, we may attract more to the woods which I'm fine with, but again, just who will we be attracting? This is my concern. And every hunter that has experience in the field (especially our general firearms season) knows exactly what I mean. Our muzzleloading season is already headed in that direction.
Again, for seniors and those with disabilities, we need to find a way to keep them in the field or get them in the field and I'm all for crossbows for those that need them. Those rules need to be adjused and streamlined.

Ok, that makes a little more sense and I can respect your point of view. I'd disagree that crossbows "in and of" themselves are going to recruit "less" desirable hunters than any other weapon does but we can agree to disagree on that point. I'd also point out that many of the hunters who would probably give crossbows a try are already hunting during bow season, so I don't see it changing what "type" of hunter they are substantially , only that maybe they might be a little more accurate and make a better shot.

I guess I don't see any benefit in going back to a traditional muzzleloading season where in-lines are not allowed. Hundreds of thousands of Michigan hunters enjoy muzzleloading with in-lines and the fact that they enjoy muzzleloading season is beneficial, both from the revenue standpoint and from a management standpoint, as they are the most efficient group of hunters harvesting does. I'm more about freedom of choice and leaving it up to the individual. I own two in-lines and a traditional Hawken. I get the Hawken out and hunt with it loaded with round balls at least once during the muzzleloading season. I don't usually get a deer with I but I enjoy carrying it in the woods with all of the nostalgia involved. If I had to use it exclusively to hunt with would I? Probably but I would not hunt nearly so often. I would not go out with it in inclement weather, that's for sure. The fact that I have a choice between using the blued Hawken or a Stainless Encore does not cheapen the experience for me, it simply adds another dimension and gives me another weapon that I can employ in the harvest of game.

Oh and FWIW, there will be at least one more Concept in the field this fall. ;)

[Swamp Monster]

If you don't get them off the couch you stand no chance at all. If one were to choose to hunt with a crossbow in archery season, putting more time in to become proficient with the shot and spending more time scouting in preparation for the season, how would you feel then? I've bow hunted for more than 20 years and releasing the arrow has always been a small part of my bow hunting experience.


I have no problem with those willing to put the time in....but if that were the case, then there would not be a need to argue legalizing the crossbow now would there? The crossbow is not going to all of a sudden make people want to put time in, it's a shortcut plain and simple so one can skip putting all that time in. Thats my point. Ethical hunters willing to put in the time will always be accepted in the field regardless of the weapon they choose (assuming it's legal). My point is that the crossbow, again here in Michigan has a high likely hood of attracting the gun hunter that had no interest in putting the time in for archery season or rifle season to begin with but now has an easy avenue to more time in the field. Certainly not all crossbow hunters will fit this mold, I know this but I'm also a realist with 25 years of Michigan hunting under my belt.

[Swamp Monster]

Ok, that makes a little more sense and I can respect your point of view. I'd disagree that crossbows "in and of" themselves are going to recruit "less" desirable hunters than any other weapon does but we can agree to disagree on that point. I'd also point out that many of the hunters who would probably give crossbows a try are already hunting during bow season, so I don't see it changing what "type" of hunter they are substantially , only that maybe they might be a little more accurate and make a better shot.

Well, I think your right, many who will choose a crossbow already are hunting with a bow, no doubt about it. I'm just concerned with some of the portion that aren't currently utilizing the season. I know that more hunters can be a good thing, but there's two sides to that as well. I think it's a legitimate concern to some degree. I'm not worried about our herd being decimated or any of that nonsense really...we have regulations for that and I don't think crossbows will likely force much in the way of regulation change either but honestly, nobody knows that for sure, we can only speculate. Comparing states is fun, but at the end of the day it's still speculation.


I guess I don't see any benefit in going back to a traditional muzzleloading season where in-lines are not allowed. Hundreds of thousands of Michigan hunters enjoy muzzleloading with in-lines and the fact that they enjoy muzzleloading season is beneficial, both from the revenue standpoint and from a management standpoint, as they are the most efficient group of hunters harvesting does. I'm more about freedom of choice and leaving it up to the individual. I own two in-lines and a traditional Hawken. I get the Hawken out and hunt with it loaded with round balls at least once during the muzzleloading season. I don't usually get a deer with I but I enjoy carrying it in the woods with all of the nostalgia involved. If I had to use it exclusively to hunt with would I? Probably but I would not hunt nearly so often. I would not go out with it in inclement weather, that's for sure. The fact that I have a choice between using the blued Hawken or a Stainless Encore does not cheapen the experience for me, it simply adds another dimension and gives me another weapon that I can employ in the harvest of game.

Oh and FWIW, there will be at least one more Concept in the field this fall. ;)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pushing for our muzzleloading season to become a traditional season! I don't think it will happen anyway.

[November Sunrise]

Well, I think your right, many who will choose a crossbow already are hunting with a bow, no doubt about it. I'm just concerned with some of the portion that aren't currently utilizing the season. I know that more hunters can be a good thing, but there's two sides to that as well. I think it's a legitimate concern to some degree. I'm not worried about our herd being decimated or any of that nonsense really.

Swamp,

The number of archery hunters in MI has dropped from 380,000 in '98 to 300,000 in '07. During this same time frame the number of firearm hunters has dropped by 150,000. Almost everyone assumes that these numbers are going to continue to decline, at least for the foreseeable future.

If this legislation passes and crossbows become legal for everyone beginning in '09, what's your best guess of what we would experience in terms of an increased number of archers? What number would you guess that we would peak at before the archery numbers again begin their decline? For what it's worth, my guess is that we'd get back up to between 330,000 - 340,000 archers before we plateau and start the downward slide again.

[cadillacjethro]

I have no problem with those willing to put the time in....but if that were the case, then there would not be a need to argue legalizing the crossbow now would there? The crossbow is not going to all of a sudden make people want to put time in, it's a shortcut plain and simple so one can skip putting all that time in. Thats my point. Ethical hunters willing to put in the time will always be accepted in the field regardless of the weapon they choose (assuming it's legal). My point is that the crossbow, again here in Michigan has a high likely hood of attracting the gun hunter that had no interest in putting the time in for archery season or rifle season to begin with but now has an easy avenue to more time in the field. Certainly not all crossbow hunters will fit this mold, I know this but I'm also a realist with 25 years of Michigan hunting under my belt.

If this is the case I think there will be many unsuccessful crossbow hunters. I have never used a crossbow. I have no idea how "easy" they are to shoot. I do have and hunt with a compound bow. I know how easy they are to shoot. My point being, with such a short range weapon, that one has to put time in or be very lucky.

[Swamp Monster]

Swamp,

The number of archery hunters in MI has dropped from 380,000 in '98 to 300,000 in '07. During this same time frame the number of firearm hunters has dropped by 150,000. Almost everyone assumes that these numbers are going to continue to decline, at least for the foreseeable future.

If this legislation passes and crossbows become legal for everyone beginning in '09, what's your best guess of what we would experience in terms of an increased number of archers? What number would you guess that we would peak at before the archery numbers again begin their decline? For what it's worth, my guess is that we'd get back up to between 330,000 - 340,000 archers before we plateau and start the downward slide again.

That's a good point. I would probably agree with your numbers....we'd see a slight bump and a plateau most likely just as you suggest. My question, or concern I guess would still be how many of those numbers are returning archers and how many are the folks I describe...the potentially undesirables that aren't willing to put the time in and are just looking for the easy way? I would like to keep them out of all seasons imo....and you all know the types I'm talking about and they don't resemble the folks on these forums. Maybe I'm just jaded I don't know. I deal with idiots during firearms season, during muzzleloader seasons, during small game seasons etc, but I've been fortunate that bow season has always been different in my experience. Now, I know bow hunting has idiots already participating but I worry that bow season will become more like the other seasons if crossbows are legalized. I'm just being honest here, I could be right, wrong or nuts but it's a concern I have.

[Swamp Monster]

If this is the case I think there will be many unsuccessful crossbow hunters. I think there would be too, but again, there success rate doesn't worry me.


I have never used a crossbow. I have no idea how "easy" they are to shoot. I do have and hunt with a compound bow. I know how easy they are to shoot. My point being, with such a short range weapon, that one has to put time in or be very lucky.

They are easy if you have fired a gun before....easier than even I thought after shooting them. The range limitation is the only difficulty factor....more so than an average compound because I think the compound is far more effective at ranges past 35 yards.

[November Sunrise]

That's a good point. I would probably agree with your numbers....we'd see a slight bump and a plateau most likely just as you suggest. My question, or concern I guess would still be how many of those numbers are returning archers and how many are the folks I describe...the potentially undesirables that aren't willing to put the time in and are just looking for the easy way? I would like to keep them out of all seasons imo....and you all know the types I'm talking about and they don't resemble the folks on these forums. Maybe I'm just jaded I don't know. I deal with idiots during firearms season, during muzzleloader seasons, during small game seasons etc, but I've been fortunate that bow season has always been different in my experience. Now, I know bow hunting has idiots already participating but I worry that bow season will become more like the other seasons if crossbows are legalized. I'm just being honest here, I could be right, wrong or nuts but it's a concern I have.

Firstly, I suppose you'd have some existing compound users switch over to crossbows. These guys would not have any influence on the increased hunter numbers as they would just be switching weapons.

Next, I think we'd see some slight increases from the 10-13 year old kids. I'm well acquainted with the "where there's a will there's a way argument" that attempts to explain how even the most pint sized 10 year old can draw and shoot sufficient poundage if they practice hard enough, but I don't think the argument stands up well to scrutiny. Reality is that many kids need at least another year or two beyond age 10 before they can shoot sufficient poundage. I wouldn't be surprised if we see 4,000-5,000 more kids hunting at an earlier age if they could use crossbows. This group would not pose any concerns regarding being a part of the slob element.

Then, I think you'd see the largest category increase which is guys who either only have firearm hunted in the past, or who used to archery hunt but stopped at some point.

We'd have to look at demographics to know for certain, but my personal observation is that a very high percentage of hunters in their 20's & 30's are already dual season (archery & firearm) hunters. Speaking in broad generalities, I will also say that the personal experience I've had with slob hunters, trespassers, etc. has been almost completely isolated to guys under the age of 40. There's something to be said for maturity in years, and since I believe the bulk of the crossbow hunters would be guys over 40, I genuinely don't have any concerns about the slob element coming into play in a meaningful way.

One other thought is that slob hunters are most evident during firearm season because of the low cost of entry to firearm hunt. The cost of entry for a slob firearm hunter is low - borrow a gun and buy some shells and a tag and they're ready for action. The cost of entry into hunting with a crossbow is quite different - about the minimum a person could spend if they're buying new equipment would be $400 in order to get going.

If this legislation passes it's a pretty big change from the status quo, and changes always create some uncertainty. I'm seeing this process as very parallel to when the concealed weapon legislation was proposed - some well intentioned (and some not so well intentioned) opponents were genuinely fearful that it was going to create an unsafe environment, so they fought against it. Their concerns have since been proven to be unfounded.

In the world of hunting there were some really good guys, some of whom are active on this forum and who've done great work in recruiting children into the hunting fraternity, who were strongly opposed several years ago to the lowering of the minimum hunting age and the introduction of the apprentice hunting license. They were convinced that it would genuinely lead to more hunting injuries and deaths and fought vigorously against it. Their concerns have since been proven to be unfounded.

Every piece of evidence that I've looked at on this crossbow issue points to this being a similar thing. I have friends who are going to fight this tooth and nail because they genuinely believe that this is going to have a harmful effect on the future of bowhunting. They're sincere in their opposition, but I have no doubt that they're going to find over time that this wasn't anything to have been concerned about.

[skipper34]

I absolutely agree with Sunrise. I do not know how many of you remember when the compound bow was introduced. I remember it very well. In fact I was one of the most vehemently opposed to its use. Back then the consensus was more of ridicule than concern about if or when it would damage the archery season as we knew it. I can remember laughing about the "contraption" around a campfire in deer camp. But that was then and this is now. The crossbow was known about back then but it was never really discussed as a deer hunting tool. At least in the circles that I frequented. Oh how times have changed. It took me several years before I gave in and tried a compound bow. It is now the tool of choice for the vast majority of our archery hunters. I honestly feel that those who are opposed to the crossbow have legitimate concerns. But I also feel that those concerns are unfounded. This is deja vu as far as new sporting arms. When the dust settles and the smoke clears, when the crossbow is legal across the board in Michigan, we will all once again be happy that we are fortunate enough to hunt and we will once more behave as sportsmen.

[Northern-Lights]

OPINIONS ARE JUST THAT OPINIONS and facts are facts. i still haven't heard ANY FACTS supporting the anti crossbow side in over 500 posts. one would think you could at least have ONE! not even the head clowns of MBH can provide one single fact before congress or GOD, opinions/myths/scare tactics/the sky is falling/ flat out LIES, come on just give me 1 fact and i'll buy all the girl scout cookies for you.:lol::lol:



Ok...I've stayed out of this....don't drop in much and hate seeing our hunting heritage going being destroyed by the inept and lazy. So, here is my opinion.... If you have to draw and hold it....it's a bow. Cross -Guns are for the lazy, the elderly, or the handicapped. I have NO problem for Cross-Guns being made legal for anyone age 55 or older, or for handicapped hunters in any season. I'll even concede that there are advantages for allowing new/young hunters who can't pull back enough poundage to hunt with own.... However, for the rest....we already have a primitive arms season....most people choose to use a muzzle loader during it. If you want to use a cross-gun....go ahead....it's already legal to do so.

As far as changing our current archery season to allow cross-guns...:dizzy: What, are there that many people out there to lazy or inept to practice like they should with a real bow? Or, maybe they never learned to truely hunt deer and can't seem to get withen ethical bow distance? I fail to see any logical reason why Michigan needs to allow unrestricted use of the cross-gun.

[Radar420]

If you have to draw and hold it....it's a bow. Cross -Guns are for the lazy, the elderly, or the handicapped.

Do you even know what the definition of bow is??? Webster defines it as something bent into a simple curve (such as a rainbow). Another Webster definition is a weapon that is made of a strip of flexible material (as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent and that is used to propel an arrow. Do you know the meaning of the verb bow? It means to bend at the waist. A crossbow contains limbs that bend - a requirement for anything that is a bow. A bow is defined by form not by function.

[awshucks]

"the potentially undesirables that aren't willing to put the time in and are just looking for the easy way?"

Are you serious? lol. There's an old saying; "You can fool the fans, but not the players". Your watch must be set to a time 30 yrs ago w/ your references to "put the time in". In todays world, 20 minutes to hit a paper plate at 20 yds w/ a tricked out compound set up by someone else and you're a "bowhunter" Get real!!

And your reference to "potentially undesirables" is offensive.

[skipper34]

Ok...I've stayed out of this....don't drop in much and hate seeing our hunting heritage going being destroyed by the inept and lazy. So, here is my opinion.... If you have to draw and hold it....it's a bow. Cross -Guns are for the lazy, the elderly, or the handicapped. I have NO problem for Cross-Guns being made legal for anyone age 55 or older, or for handicapped hunters in any season. I'll even concede that there are advantages for allowing new/young hunters who can't pull back enough poundage to hunt with own.... However, for the rest....we already have a primitive arms season....most people choose to use a muzzle loader during it. If you want to use a cross-gun....go ahead....it's already legal to do so.

As far as changing our current archery season to allow cross-guns...:dizzy: What, are there that many people out there to lazy or inept to practice like they should with a real bow? Or, maybe they never learned to truely hunt deer and can't seem to get withen ethical bow distance? I fail to see any logical reason why Michigan needs to allow unrestricted use of the cross-gun.

So that by "real bow" we can all assume that you use a longbow or recurve? If you are using a compound then you are a hypocrite. Only lazy and inept people would dare use a compound bow according to your logic. And by the way, the term is CROSSBOW.

[Whit1]

Firstly, I suppose you'd have some existing compound users switch over to crossbows. These guys would not have any influence on the increased hunter numbers as they would just be switching weapons.

Data and comments from state agencies where crossbow inclusion is the law state that this is where quite a bit of the increase will come from, vertical bow (mainly compound) bowyers switching over to crossbows)

Then, I think you'd see the largest category increase which is guys who either only have firearm hunted in the past, or who used to archery hunt but stopped at some point.

The firearms hunters that do go to crossbows will be there, but not nearly in the numbers that the anti-crossbow inclusion and the groups that "represent" them toss out.

Studies from Minnesota and Georgia show that vertical bowhunter numbers begin to drop after age 45. By the mid to late 40s the numbers approach freefall. It is in the retention of these hunters (Georgia data) that crossbows have another significant impact.

[TOW]

Northern Lights,

If you can not even use the proper terminology for a crossbow in this debate then very few will take you seriously.

To attempt to denigrate a hunting tool by applying a derogatory name to it only shows that the person is attempting to put down a person that wants to use a particular hunting tool. Try to keep it above board.

Swamp Master,

You speak of "putting in the time" to master a piece of archery gear. That is an individual requirement that we place upon ourselves. To some we will shoot much more than needed to become and stay proficient with whatever piece of archery gear that we choose. Some are naturals and can master their equipment with ease and others struggle. Then there are others that "might" shoot a dozen arrows before hitting the deer woods.

IOW - there are no "practice police" to see that we all master and stay proficient with whatever piece of archery gear that we chose to use. So "putting in time" may or may not apply with any thing that we choose.

I know some crossbowers that shoot almost daily and I know some vertical bowhunters that hang up the compound at the end of the season and dont pick it up again until a week or two before next season. I've also seen the reverse. "Putting in time" has nothing to do with the equipment being used.

Shooting a compound or a crossbow is like riding a bicycle. One might get a little rusty if they haven't shot in awhile, but one doesn't forget how to shoot.

[TOW]

In a talking to my crossbow brethern in Ontario (where they have a choice of verticla bows and crossbws) quite a few will hunt with compounds during the early season and then switch to crossbows when the weather turns nasty and COLD.

[Swamp Ghost]

Data and comments from state agencies where crossbow inclusion is the law state that this is where quite a bit of the increase will come from, vertical bow (mainly compound) bowyers switching over to crossbows)



That kinda makes you wonder why a hunter using a "super easy to master and shoot" "20 minutes to hit a paper plate at 20 yds w/ a tricked out compound set up by someone else" bow would make the switch. Interesting...

[Liv4Huntin']

In a talking to my crossbow brethern in Ontario (where they have a choice of verticla bows and crossbws) quite a few will hunt with compounds during the early season and then switch to crossbows when the weather turns nasty and COLD.

How many of the bowhunters here have been in a tree stand in December, wind blowing, snow falling, the big chill setting in, and then ... there 'he' is, or 'she' is, the deer you've been waiting for shows up? However, you're SO cold, it's tough to make the draw of the bowstring? Shot blown!

THAT (Tow's post) is an example of how great it would be to have a CHOICE.
~ m ~

[TOW]

That kinda makes you wonder why a hunter using a "super easy to master and shoot" "20 minutes to hit a paper plate at 20 yds w/ a tricked out compound set up by someone else" bow would make the switch. Interesting...

So are you saying that bowhunting is real tough?

From ArcheryTalk..

First deer on first hunt

my cousin (seth) came home with me after school yesterday.he said he wanted to go hunt with me..he had never been bow hunting or shot a bow until about 3:30 yeasterday afternoon.he shot my bow(pse typhoon) for about 30 min.s and could group hit arrows in about a 4inch group at 20 yards so i told him if a spike came out he could shoot at it.well i have my ameristep blind in the edge of a 60 acre wheat field.every time i have been in that blind i see 15+ deer and 10+ within shooting distance.so we loaded up about 4 o clock and took the video camera and tripod and a extra seat(a five gallon bucket)for seth.we got to the blind about 5 and set up the camera and got everything ready.then 3 does came out and ate rite in front of us(i put corn out before we got in the blind at about 15 yards)then 3 more showed up.well they ate for at least 20mins and then started lookin in the brush like something was fixin to come out.then they just meander off down the tree line.i look up and at about 25 yrds a spike is just walkin rite to us. i gave seth the bow as soon as he got the camera and tripod set out of the way. the spike walks rite to us and stands broad side at about 12yrds. seth draws the bow aims and whack he hits the spike it takes off like a striped ass ape and runs about 15yrds stops takes two staggerin steps sideways and falls over DEAD and never gave a twich.well after about five mins he said our 30mins has to be up and then i explained the process of bleeding a deer out no matter how close he falls.(and i wanted to see the bigger buck that i had been trying to kill for about a week)well he shot the spike at about 6 20 less than 2 hours had he spend bow hunting and since it didnt get dark until about 7:15 or so we stayed in the stand about 30 mins after the spike the big buck comes into the field and passes at about 40 yards just a few yards out of range.we he runs does all over the field and then goes to the far side so we crawl out of the tent and film the find of the deer.he shot it with a 100 grain 3 blade muzzy BH and a 5575 gold-tip arrow and about 60# he didnt get a pass through but he hit the deer right in the white spot under the left leg the arrow came out about half way down his ribs and stuck out about 4 inchs or so when the deer had turn to run he broke my arrow smooth off and almost in half when we got the deer home and guted it i took the heart out and he had cut the bottom of the heart with 2 of the 3 blades opening up both of the bigger chambers of the heart..it was one heck of a shot......one of the best shots i have ever seen(and im not tryin to start the whole double lung VS heart shot debate)it was a good shot and even better recovery.we could see the spot where he had laid down in the weeds about 20 yrds for the blind. it was the greatest hunt i have ever taken anyone on and by far the quickest time from the firsty time to ever shoot a bow to the time you kill your first buck.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120896&highlight=first+and+deer (http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120896&highlight=first+and+deer)

[Swamp Ghost]

How many of the bowhunters here have been in a tree stand in December, wind blowing, snow falling, the big chill setting in, and then ... there 'he' is, or 'she' is, the deer you've been waiting for shows up? However, you're SO cold, it's tough to make the draw of the bowstring? Shot blown!

That's what makes it bowhunting


THAT (Tow's post) is an example of how great it would be to have a CHOICE.
~ m ~

Nope a great example of crossbowhunting

[Munsterlndr]

That kinda makes you wonder why a hunter using a "super easy to master and shoot" "20 minutes to hit a paper plate at 20 yds w/ a tricked out compound set up by someone else" bow would make the switch. Interesting...

Primarily because the repetitive motion of shooting a vertical bow is rough on arms, shoulder, backs and all of the other muscles and joints that suffer from the aging process. When you get to a certain age, for some hunters shooting a vertical bow repeatedly, the amount that it takes to stay in practice, becomes much less fun than it used to be due to the aches and pains involved. This is a recreational endeavor, not designed to be a punishment. Remember that word retention and the fact that Wisconsin experienced an increase in the over 65 demographic after expanding crossbows for seniors? Remove a degree of the physical hardship involved and you are going to retain hunters at a much higher rate.

Oh wait, thats right, you like to frame the discussion so that it does not include all of the sub sets of hunters who could benefit from the inclusion of crossbows. ;)

[Swamp Ghost]

So are you saying that bowhunting is real tough?

From ArcheryTalk..

First deer on first hunt

my cousin (seth) came home with me after school yesterday.he said he wanted to go hunt with me..he had never been bow hunting or shot a bow until about 3:30 yeasterday afternoon.he shot my bow(pse typhoon) for about 30 min.s and could group hit arrows in about a 4inch group at 20 yards so i told him if a spike came out he could shoot at it.well i have my ameristep blind in the edge of a 60 acre wheat field.every time i have been in that blind i see 15+ deer and 10+ within shooting distance.so we loaded up about 4 o clock and took the video camera and tripod and a extra seat(a five gallon bucket)for seth.we got to the blind about 5 and set up the camera and got everything ready.then 3 does came out and ate rite in front of us(i put corn out before we got in the blind at about 15 yards)then 3 more showed up.well they ate for at least 20mins and then started lookin in the brush like something was fixin to come out.then they just meander off down the tree line.i look up and at about 25 yrds a spike is just walkin rite to us. i gave seth the bow as soon as he got the camera and tripod set out of the way. the spike walks rite to us and stands broad side at about 12yrds. seth draws the bow aims and whack he hits the spike it takes off like a striped ass ape and runs about 15yrds stops takes two staggerin steps sideways and falls over DEAD and never gave a twich.well after about five mins he said our 30mins has to be up and then i explained the process of bleeding a deer out no matter how close he falls.(and i wanted to see the bigger buck that i had been trying to kill for about a week)well he shot the spike at about 6 20 less than 2 hours had he spend bow hunting and since it didnt get dark until about 7:15 or so we stayed in the stand about 30 mins after the spike the big buck comes into the field and passes at about 40 yards just a few yards out of range.we he runs does all over the field and then goes to the far side so we crawl out of the tent and film the find of the deer.he shot it with a 100 grain 3 blade muzzy BH and a 5575 gold-tip arrow and about 60# he didnt get a pass through but he hit the deer right in the white spot under the left leg the arrow came out about half way down his ribs and stuck out about 4 inchs or so when the deer had turn to run he broke my arrow smooth off and almost in half when we got the deer home and guted it i took the heart out and he had cut the bottom of the heart with 2 of the 3 blades opening up both of the bigger chambers of the heart..it was one heck of a shot......one of the best shots i have ever seen(and im not tryin to start the whole double lung VS heart shot debate)it was a good shot and even better recovery.we could see the spot where he had laid down in the weeds about 20 yrds for the blind. it was the greatest hunt i have ever taken anyone on and by far the quickest time from the firsty time to ever shoot a bow to the time you kill your first buck.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120896&highlight=first+and+deer (http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120896&highlight=first+and+deer)

Apparently it is, hence people wanting crossbows.

[Swamp Ghost]

Primarily because the repetitive motion of shooting a vertical bow is rough on arms, shoulder, backs and all of the other muscles and joints that suffer from the aging process. When you get to a certain age, for some hunters shooting a vertical bow repeatedly, the amount that it takes to stay in practice, becomes much less fun than it used to be due to the aches and pains involved. This is a recreational endeavor, not designed to be a punishment. Remember that word retention and the fact that Wisconsin experienced an increase in the over 65 demographic after expanding crossbows for seniors? Remove a degree of the physical hardship involved and you are going to retain hunters at a much higher rate.

Oh wait, thats right, you like to frame the discussion so that it does not include all of the sub sets of hunters who could benefit from the inclusion of crossbows. ;)

Oh wait, I'm still waiting on the actual number of that increase and retention.

[Liv4Huntin']

That's what makes it bowhunting



Nope a great example of crossbowhunting


Always gotta have the 'last word', eh swamp????? You MUST be right......;)
~ m ~

[BigBirdVA]

So are you saying that bowhunting is real tough? What they really meant is we want to make bow hunting seem tough to keep as many people out of the woods during "my season" when I hunt for "my deer".

3 years ago here in VA we all went through this. I had a guy PM me on AT when I was ranting about how bad xbows will make things. He said it's won't matter and when it's all said and done you'll look back and see how it was all ( ranting and arguing) for nothing. He was 100% right. Right now people have their panties in a wad in your state. They'll get over it in a year after they're legal and they see first hand nothing happened. It's yet to alter a bag limit or season anywhere they'll been allowed. Well except Ohio where archery season is longer than gun. :lol:

[Munsterlndr]

Oh wait, I'm still waiting on the actual number of that increase and retention.

Your a big boy Swamp, you can google it. You don't want to take the "easy way" out by having others do your research for you, now do you? :lol:

Or better yet, read through all my 6,000+ posts. I've posted the data at least once in the past on MS. ;) :lol:

[TOW]

Apparently it is, hence people wanting crossbows.

So why do 95% of the bowhunters take the easier way out and shoot compounds instead of recurves and longbows?

Then some of these same bowhunters bad mouth a crossbower that wants to use a piece of archery equipment that is no better, nor any worse, than the compound that the 95% shoot and hunt with.

This is high tech bow is OK, but a crossbow isn't?

http://www.huntersfriend.com/2007-PSE-X-Force/x-force-fastest-compound-bow.htm

Please explain..

[Swamp Ghost]

Your a big boy Swamp, you can google it. You don't want to take the "easy way" out by having others do your research for you, now do you? :lol:

Or better yet, read through all my 6,000+ posts. I've posted the data at least once in the past on MS. ;) :lol:

Nope, I'll just chalk it up to meaningless spin.

[Swamp Ghost]

So why do 95% of the bowhunters take the easier way out and shoot compounds instead of recurves and longbows?

Then some of these same bowhunters bad mouth a crossbower that wants to use a piece of archery equipment that is no better, nor any worse, than the compound that the 95% shoot and hunt with.

This is high tech bow is OK, but a crossbow isn't?

http://www.huntersfriend.com/2007-PSE-X-Force/x-force-fastest-compound-bow.htm

Please explain..

Compound bow users take the "easier" way out? It must not be that easy seeing how many would "love" to use a crossbow and evidenced by hunters eagerly make the switch from compounds to the crossbow once they become legal . :lol:

Hey look, you still have to draw that thing.

[TOW]

What they really meant is we want to make bow hunting seem tough to keep as many people out of the woods during "my season" when I hunt for "my deer".

3 years ago here in VA we all went through this. I had a guy PM me on AT when I was ranting about how bad xbows will make things. He said it's won't matter and when it's all said and done you'll look back and see how it was all ( ranting and arguing) for nothing. He was 100% right. Right now people have their panties in a wad in your state. They'll get over it in a year after they're legal and they see first hand nothing happened. It's yet to alter a bag limit or season anywhere they'll been allowed. Well except Ohio where archery season is longer than gun. :lol:

Yepper - “Much ado about nothing”


In 2005 Tennessee legalized crossbows for all of their archery season.

The Tennessee Wildlife Resources conducted a hunter survey the following year about the impact of the crossbow legalization. The results were as follows:

Question – Did the legalization of crossbows in 2005 affect your hunting experience in any way during the season?

Yes – 22 (8.1%)
No – 251 (91.2%)
Don’t know - 2 (0.7%)

Respondents who said legalization of crossbows affected their hunting experience were asked: Did you have a positive or negative experience with crossbows?

Positive - 10 (48.6%)
Negative – 9 (39.8%)
Don’t know – 2 (13.6%)

As you can see, a year or two after crossbow legalization it becomes the Shakespearean “Much ado about nothing” as people just go hunting.

[November Sunrise]

Northern Lights,

If you can not even use the proper terminology for a crossbow in this debate then very few will take you seriously.

To attempt to denigrate a hunting tool by applying a derogatory name to it only shows that the person is attempting to put down a person that wants to use a particular hunting tool. Try to keep it above board.
.

Personally, I enjoy it when someone uses the "crossgun" or "x-gun" terminology. It provides immediate insight to their level of intellect and maturity. I place the guys who think that they're scoring some debate points when they use the word "crossgun" in the same category as 15 year old boys who wear their pants 10 inches below the top of their underwear in an attempt to communicate their studliness. In both cases, except for their peers within their little group, the thought that runs through everyone else's mind is "if they only knew how stupid they looked".

[TOW]

Compound bow users take the "easier" way out? It must not be that easy seeing how many would "love" to use a crossbow and evidenced by hunters eagerly make the switch from compounds to the crossbow once they become legal . :lol:

Sure they are taking the "easier way out". If they weren't they would be shooting a recurve or longbow - THAT takes "putting in time".

I think that you will find that most bowhunters will not "make a complete switch", but just have another choice in an archery hunting tool. One that they can use as the mood or the bad weather strikes them.

When I could draw a vertical bow I would sometimes hunt with a compound and sometimes my recurve. It was nice to have a choice. The crossbow is just another choice.

No one is telling anyone that they have to use a crossbow. Choose it if you want or just dance with the gal that you brought to the dance.

YOUR CHOICE...

[Swamp Ghost]

Yepper - “Much ado about nothing”


In 2005 Tennessee legalized crossbows for all of their archery season.

The Tennessee Wildlife Resources conducted a hunter survey the following year about the impact of the crossbow legalization. The results were as follows:

Question – Did the legalization of crossbows in 2005 affect your hunting experience in any way during the season?

Yes – 22 (8.1%)
No – 251 (91.2%)
Don’t know - 2 (0.7%)

Respondents who said legalization of crossbows affected their hunting experience were asked: Did you have a positive or negative experience with crossbows?

Positive - 10 (48.6%)
Negative – 9 (39.8%)
Don’t know – 2 (13.6%)

As you can see, a year or two after crossbow legalization it becomes the Shakespearean “Much ado about nothing” as people just go hunting.




How many hunters responded to this? :SHOCKED:

[TOW]

Add them up.

The TWRA said that it was very good statistical survey.

"Much ado about nothing"..

[NoWake]

Personally, I enjoy it when someone uses the "crossgun" or "x-gun" terminology. It provides immediate insight to their level of intellect and maturity. I place the guys who think that they're scoring some debate points when they use the word "crossgun" in the same category as 15 year old boys who wear their pants 10 inches below the top of their underwear in an attempt to communicate their studliness. In both cases, except for their peers within their little group, the thought that runs through everyone else's mind is "if they only knew how stupid they looked".

Wouldn't you love to read some of the letters that the committee members and representatives are getting? I'm sure they are getting some doozies from both sides.

[Swamp Ghost]

Add them up.

The TWRA said that it was very good statistical survey.

"Much ado about nothing"..

LOL!

[TOW]

Wouldn't you love to read some of the letters that the committee members and representatives are getting? I'm sure they are getting some doozies from both sides.

Uhh... never mind NorthernLights.. Keep calling them "Crossguns" ;)

Especially to the powers to be..

[November Sunrise]

Wouldn't you love to read some of the letters that the committee members and representatives are getting? I'm sure they are getting some doozies from both sides.

Oh, it would most definitely be a blast to see them all. One guy on another site posted a copy of his letter. In his letter he wrote "most do not realize once the buck harvest during the normal archery season goes over 26%, the season will be shortened". The sad thing is I think he really believes that there is an actual 26% threshold.

There's so much fear based misinformation and paranoia that the crossbow opponents have relied on for years that you can bet your bippy that there are indeed some real doozies being submitted.

Anyone venture to guess how many of the letters have read like this - "Mr. Congressmen, HB 4517 is all just a vast conspiracy of x-gun manufacturers uniting against the common man, who simply longs to hunt with his high let off compound bow, trigger release, illuminated sights, and mechanical broadhead in peace and quiet and without interference from the crossgun industry and their spawn. I explore you to REjECT this GASSTLEE piece of legislation!!!!"

Incidentally, for those of you crossbow opponents who still haven't written your congressman, you have the express written permission of November Sunrise to use the wording in the paragraph above. Don't knock it until you've tried it.

[Swamp Ghost]

We the hunters of the great state of Michigan support HB 4517. Even though 350,000 of MI's deer hunters currently have the option to hunt the archery season with a superior weapon (the compound bow) but choose not to. We feel that allowing all hunters the use of a crossbow in the archery season will help the hunter's control the states deer herd, even though these same hunter's can't get it done with a firearm.

Regards,
The "We won't admit the truth" committee

:evilsmile

[Swamp Monster]

"the potentially undesirables that aren't willing to put the time in and are just looking for the easy way?"

Are you serious? lol. There's an old saying; "You can fool the fans, but not the players". Your watch must be set to a time 30 yrs ago w/ your references to "put the time in". In todays world, 20 minutes to hit a paper plate at 20 yds w/ a tricked out compound set up by someone else and you're a "bowhunter" Get real!!

And your reference to "potentially undesirables" is offensive.

Offensive? Sorry, but slob hunters regardless of their weapon of choice are undersirables. If you don't fit that description, you have no need to be offended.

[wildcoy73]

Geez I must be wrong for bow hunting with 5 diffrent compound bows during a season. Or is it lazy? Yes I can set up any bow in about 5 minutes. Give me 20 minutes and I can have a person hitting a papper plate at 20 yards. do I let them go hunting with me. Yes but I have a set rule anytime I feel like it I make them shoot one cold arrow and they must be able to hit a small pie plate at 20 yards, if not they need to practice. Same will go for the kids and a crossbow. My oldest can use a rifle and he must be able to hit the target with one shot at sevral diffent ranges before he can go out. No practice shot allowed. Same as in hunting you only get one shot.
So crossbows will not change the amount of time we shoot. it may increase for bolts are reusable and cost less than a bullet, and the crossbow does not leave a bruise on your shoulder. So i believe crossbow hunter will be a better group than Michigan gun hunters

[Swamp Monster]

Try to keep it above board.

Swamp Master,

Take your own advice and use the correct name


You speak of "putting in the time" to master a piece of archery gear. That is an individual requirement that we place upon ourselves. To some we will shoot much more than needed to become and stay proficient with whatever piece of archery gear that we choose. Some are naturals and can master their equipment with ease and others struggle. Then there are others that "might" shoot a dozen arrows before hitting the deer woods.

IOW - there are no "practice police" to see that we all master and stay proficient with whatever piece of archery gear that we chose to use. So "putting in time" may or may not apply with any thing that we choose.

I know some crossbowers that shoot almost daily and I know some vertical bowhunters that hang up the compound at the end of the season and dont pick it up again until a week or two before next season. I've also seen the reverse. "Putting in time" has nothing to do with the equipment being used.

Shooting a compound or a crossbow is like riding a bicycle. One might get a little rusty if they haven't shot in awhile, but one doesn't forget how to shoot.

I'm certainly not suggesting that every crossbow hunter wants the easy way, I'm only saying that a crossbow is indeed easier to use than any vertical bow. All this talk about using it for seniors and kids is directly related to it's ease of use....thats the reason. Some here seem to want to argue that fact one moment but use that as a legitimite reason the next.

Putting in time has everything to do with your equipment, regardless of equipment choice. Some equipment will be easier to master than others and ofcourse there will be individual exceptions to everything. Since crossbows are easier to use, I fear people will feel they don't need to put the time in just like many in firearms season feel. Work a gun club on public site in days just before firearms season and you'll get a solid taste of just what I'm talking about. And yes people do it with vertical bows as well but I don't think it's to the degree that it happens during firearms season.


November and Munster, I appreciate your thoughts on the issue, it's definitely giving me something to think about. I'm not actively campaigning against adding crossbows, nor am I writing letters to our representatives against them, just openly voicing some concerns.

[NoWake]

I'm certainly not suggesting that every crossbow hunter wants the easy way, I'm only saying that a crossbow is indeed easier to use than any vertical bow. All this talk about using it for seniors and kids is directly related to it's ease of use....thats the reason. Some here seem to want to argue that fact one moment but use that as a legitimite reason the next.

Putting in time has everything to do with your equipment, regardless of equipment choice. Some equipment will be easier to master than others and ofcourse there will be individual exceptions to everything. Since crossbows are easier to use, I fear people will feel they don't need to put the time in just like many in firearms season feel. Work a gun club on public site in days just before firearms season and you'll get a solid taste of just what I'm talking about. And yes people do it with vertical bows as well but I don't think it's to the degree that it happens during firearms season.


November and Munster, I appreciate your thoughts on the issue, it's definitely giving me something to think about. I'm not actively campaigning against adding crossbows, nor am I writing letters to our representatives against them, just openly voicing some concerns.


I understand where you are coming from. I guess another way of looking at it could be this: If we can accept the statistics, that success rates between crossbows and modern compound bows are nearly identical, the less desirables you mention may more likely be discouraged with their results and give up. They may quickly become a non-issue. If we slide a little further up or maybe down the slob scale depending on how you look at it, we will find a slot that too many current compound hunters already fit into. This group of current compound hunters (probably the most apt to switch to a crossbow) who are out there hunting hard evey opportunity doing almost everything right with the exception of practicing enough to be able to deliver the consistant accuracy required. IMO there are plenty of these guys already bowhunting and if they were given an opportunity to switch to something that provided them a higher percent chance at an accurate shot, there may be a lot less gimped up deer running around in the woods.

Could this be seen as rewarding the less commited? Yep, and in a way that sucks and is wrong, but IMO the other positive possibilities of the big picture outweigh the negatives, especially when considering what all of the other states allowing crossbows have experienced.

[NoWake]

Oh, it would most definitely be a blast to see them all. One guy on another site posted a copy of his letter. In his letter he wrote "most do not realize once the buck harvest during the normal archery season goes over 26%, the season will be shortened". The sad thing is I think he really believes that there is an actual 26% threshold.



You can tell that guy doesn't get out in the woods much. If he did he would know that the current rutting trend shows that by 2011-2012 the rut will be completely finished before Oct. 1. :rolleyes::lol:

[Munsterlndr]

Oh, it would most definitely be a blast to see them all. One guy on another site posted a copy of his letter. In his letter he wrote "most do not realize once the buck harvest during the normal archery season goes over 26%, the season will be shortened". The sad thing is I think he really believes that there is an actual 26% threshold.
Um, note to Trad Guy....... I think the DNR missed your memo about a 26% threshold.

2004 archery antlered harvest = 29% of total antlered harvest

2005 archery antlered harvest = 30% of total antlered harvest

2006 archery antlered harvest = 28% of total antlered harvest

2007 archery antlered harvest = 27% of total antlered harvest

:rolleyes: :lol:

[TOW]

Take your own advice and use the correct name

Sorry... typo.




I'm certainly not suggesting that every crossbow hunter wants the easy way, I'm only saying that a crossbow is indeed easier to use than any vertical bow. All this talk about using it for seniors and kids is directly related to it's ease of use....thats the reason. Some here seem to want to argue that fact one moment but use that as a legitimite reason the next.

Putting in time has everything to do with your equipment, regardless of equipment choice. Some equipment will be easier to master than others and ofcourse there will be individual exceptions to everything. Since crossbows are easier to use, I fear people will feel they don't need to put the time in just like many in firearms season feel. Work a gun club on public site in days just before firearms season and you'll get a solid taste of just what I'm talking about. And yes people do it with vertical bows as well but I don't think it's to the degree that it happens during firearms season.



The "putting in time" was for another poster who thought that the amount of time "put in" was the prerequisite for allowing verticalabows in archery seoans. I';ts not. There are no "practice police to make sure everyone hiting teh deer woods has "put in time".

My take on the seniors, kids and women is that the crossbow can be cocked by mechanical means where a hunting weight bow must be drawn by hand and broke over. A lot of people can not do that.

I also do not like to see kids go afield "undergunned" with a low poundage bow that is more likely to ding a deer than kill it.