crossbow by user survey

[wildcoy73]

Read the options and answer the best for you.

We have some fellow hunters that don't believe the numbers of the last survey so we will add a few options to this one.

[buck37]

The poll is missing options. Like, disabled or a senior citizen, or leave the regulations alone. I'm all for use for the disabled or senior citizens, but illegal for anyone else.

[wolverines]

The poll is missing options. Like, disabled or a senior citizen, or leave the regulations alone. I'm all for use for the disabled or senior citizens, but illegal for anyone else.



I agree. What gets me is the guys that come in to buy a crossbow cause they can't draw a bow (which I have no issues with) don't want a draw assister or a crank:dizzy: Anyone who has drawn a crossbow knows that's it's just as hard or harder to draw than a bow. That has always bothered me a little... Anyways, I voted for disabled; but I would vote for leave them the way they are if the option was there.

[Kurt4253]

The poll is missing options. Like, disabled or a senior citizen, or leave the regulations alone. I'm all for use for the disabled or senior citizens, but illegal for anyone else.

Leave the regulations alone & senior citizen would both fall under only for disabled

[M1Garand]

I think other options on there should have been restricted (or disabled only) and I only bow/gun hunt.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

I agree. What gets me is the guys that come in to buy a crossbow cause they can't draw a bow (which I have no issues with) don't want a draw assister or a crank:dizzy: Anyone who has drawn a crossbow knows that's it's just as hard or harder to draw than a bow. That has always bothered me a little... Anyways, I voted for disabled; but I would vote for leave them the way they are if the option was there.

DID YOU STOP AND THINK, they might have a better price on those items somewhere else and wish to purchase them there? i know my 82 year old father did the same exact thing on that mechanical crank unit. he saved $$80 on his crank for the horton. the other store wanted $$$150.00:dizzy:
TIMES ARE A CHANGING AND SOON! SEE YA IN THE WOODS WITH MY CROSSBOW:evilsmile

[wolverines]

DID YOU STOP AND THINK, they might have a better price on those items somewhere else and wish to purchase them there? i know my 82 year old father did the same exact thing on that mechanical crank unit. he saved $$80 on his crank for the horton. the other store wanted $$$150.00:dizzy:
TIMES ARE A CHANGING AND SOON! SEE YA IN THE WOODS WITH MY CROSSBOW:evilsmile



Sure, I guess that's a possability...just not what most of them were indicating they were going to do;)

[mtan1104]

To each his own.

[Joe Archer]

How do you vote for senior citizens and disabled hunters?
<----<<<

[fasthunter]

I'll still hunt with my compound, but I'd like to see the crossbow be legalized for everyone as an option during the archery season. I know my wife would go if they did.

[HunterHawk]

ugh..... disabled, elderly, women, kids, OR anyone who cant get one with a bow :)... aka Dan Connell :D

i honestly dont see the need.. i used to think they were sweet when i was little but i guess i dont see the need when i already have a compound.... to me its like shooting a gun kinda...

I used to shoot traditional and the jump to a compound seemed to make it a bit easier because my success rate went up a ton because i can shoot farther more CONFIDENTLY with a compound than i could a recurve.... im not sure how far crossbows shoot because i have never used one but i would still think it would be easier than shooting a compound because you would be looking through a scope and pulling a trigger?

again i will admit im kinda ignorant to crossbows... i just dont see the need.... if its between someone hunting and not hunting because they cant pull back enough wait to kill a deer.... GO FOR IT....

i just dont see an option for me to vote because i am unsure

good luck for those who want it... i wont vote for it but i wont vote against it i guess

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

ugh..... disabled, elderly, women, kids, OR anyone who cant get one with a bow :)... aka Dan Connell :D

i honestly dont see the need.. i used to think they were sweet when i was little but i guess i dont see the need when i already have a compound.... to me its like shooting a gun kinda...

I used to shoot traditional and the jump to a compound seemed to make it a bit easier because my success rate went up a ton because i can shoot farther more CONFIDENTLY with a compound than i could a recurve.... im not sure how far crossbows shoot because i have never used one but i would still think it would be easier than shooting a compound because you would be looking through a scope and pulling a trigger?

again i will admit im kinda ignorant to crossbows... i just dont see the need.... if its between someone hunting and not hunting because they cant pull back enough wait to kill a deer.... GO FOR IT....

i just dont see an option for me to vote because i am unsure

good luck for those who want it... i wont vote for it but i wont vote against it i guess

so you don't see the need :dizzy: for the disabled, elderly, young and women to hunt huh? then you go on and say anyone who can get one with a bow (DAN CONNELL) and decides not to, shouldn't be allowed to have a CHOICE, thats just another pathetic way to say NO, NOT IN MY BOW SEASON, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SHOOT MY DEER, PERIOD!
as far as the ignorant part goes. if you have been paying any attention to these crossbow forums you would see that all the data shows and proves that there is absolutely no negligable difference in the taking of game between archery hunters (compound versus crossbow) from surrounding states. there's only 3 positions one can take on this issue, YOU ARE FOR CROSSBOWS, AGAINST CROSSBOWS, OR YOU DON'T CARE. YOU ARE AGAINST THEM, AS YOU DON'T SEE THE NEED FOR OTHERS TO ENJOY HUNTING WHITETAIL DEER BECAUSE THEY DON'T USE A BOW, PERIOD.

[Kurt4253]

ugh..... disabled, elderly, women, kids, OR anyone who cant get one with a bow :)... aka Dan Connell :D

i honestly dont see the need

again i will admit im kinda ignorant to crossbows... i just dont see the need

Hi HunterHawk

You say that you "don't see the need"

It is not a question of "need" - rather it is a question of CHOICE !!!

It is a POVABLE fact that hunting with a crossbow has NO great advantage over hunting with todays modern compound bow. IN FACT, there are some very real disadvantages to hunting with a crossbow. Consequently there just flat out is no reason why an individual hunter should not be allowed to CHOOSE his or her own weapon when they wish to go to the woods for the sole purpose of attempting to harvest a game animal to put meat in their freezer.

No one is saying that you HAVE TO hunt with a crossbow, - so the real questions is, - why are other hunters so set on telling others what they MUST hunt with.

I could see the argument against the crossbow , - IF, - there was some GREAT advantage to using one. --- But the FACT is, - there is NO GREAT advantage. Again, that is a PROVABLE fact. --- So why should it be that hunters, - as individuals, - should not have the RIGHT, - to choose the crossbow, as their weapon of choice, when they wish to go a field to harvest a game animal for their freezer.

I keep asking this question, - but can't seem to get a real JUSTIFIED answer to it.

Maybe you can give me one?

Kurt

[wolverines]

I don't personally believe an abled person should be able to use a crossbow in archery season...there really isn't any archery skill being used. It takes skill to shoot a bow, and it takes skill to shoot a firearm, but they are different. The skill involved in shooting a crossbow is the same as a firearm...so your choice should come during the firearm season, like it is now. I have no problem with that. I also think people with disabilities should also be able to hunt...if that means using a crossbow during archery season then than should be the acception, like it is now.

[Munsterlndr]

i honestly dont see the need.. i used to think they were sweet when i was little but i guess i dont see the need when i already have a compound.... to me its like shooting a gun kinda...


Hunterhawk -

A couple of thoughts. As you noted, when you switched from a long bow to a compound, you noticed an increase in success rate. This is not surprising because data from states who break out the harvest success rates for different weapons shows that overall compound bow users have a higher success rate than long bow users.

Data from other states and from Michigan also shows that firearms hunters have a higher success rate than bow hunters do. Again, this is not surprising since firearms have a much longer effective killing range than bows do.

Despite what you might think, this same data also show that the success rate between crossbow uses and vertical bow users is virtually identical or in some cases leans slightly to the advantage of vertical bow users.

So unlike compounds over long bows or firearms over bows, there is no inherent advantage to using a crossbow over a vertical bow.

Keep in mind that I am talking about an inherent advantage that would result in increasing the likelihood of harvesting a deer. This is not to say that there are not differences between the two weapons. Some of those differences are viewed as an advantage by some and some as a disadvantage. It comes down to a matter of personal preference, just as it does when you decide to use a high let off on your compound or any of the other technological gadgets that are available to bow hunters.

Now let me ask you this. If you accept the fact that guys using a crossbow have no inherent advantage over vertical bows that will increase their chances of successfully harvesting a deer, why would it make any difference to you whether another hunter chooses to use one?

[Munsterlndr]

I don't personally believe an abled person should be able to use a crossbow in archery season...there really isn't any archery skill being used. It takes skill to shoot a bow, and it takes skill to shoot a firearm, but they are different. The skill involved in shooting a crossbow is the same as a firearm...so your choice should come during the firearm season, like it is now. I have no problem with that. I also think people with disabilities should also be able to hunt...if that means using a crossbow during archery season then than should be the acception, like it is now.

Let me ask you this, where is it written that the purpose of archery season is to exhibit a certain skill level?

When Fred Bear lobbied for the creation of an archery season independent of firearms season, he based his request on creating expanded opportunities for sportsmen to enjoy one of our natural resources. The basis of his campaign was the creation of a "two season" hunter. It was about allowing hunters who wanted to expand their recreational opportunities to do so with the weapon that they wanted to use, outside of the existing firearms season.

Todays vertical bow hunters appear to want to deny to those who would like to hunt with a crossbow the same potential for expanding their recreational opportunities that Fred Bear sought for vertical bow users.

If archery skill is of such importance why then do we allow the use of Compounds? Why do we allow for stabilizers or carbon arrows or expandable broadheads or whisker biscuits or any of the other technological advances that decrease the amount of skill required to accurately shoot a bow?

It comes down to being a matter of personal choice. It makes no difference to me whether you choose to hunt with a yew longbow and cedar arrows or a 99% let off high-tech compound with carbon arrows. Why would I care what you choose to use?

Conversely, since it has been amply demonstrated that crossbows have virtually identical harvest success rates as vertical bows and not firearms, what difference should it make to you whether I choose to hunt with a crossbow or with a compound or with a long bow?

[Hungry Wolf]

I don't personally believe an abled person should be able to use a crossbow in archery season...there really isn't any archery skill being used. It takes skill to shoot a bow, and it takes skill to shoot a firearm, but they are different. The skill involved in shooting a crossbow is the same as a firearm...so your choice should come during the firearm season, like it is now. I have no problem with that. I also think people with disabilities should also be able to hunt...if that means using a crossbow during archery season then than should be the acception, like it is now.

Very well put...

[srconnell22]

I dont think Hunterhawk was saying there was no need for them in general...mostly for him personally. I could be wrong...thats just the way I read it. Certainly nothing wrong with that...

I would like to see them open the archery season up to crossbows as well as compounds as that will only get more people into the woods, thus stimulating the economy however small it may be.

I think Ohio has proven that crossbows arent like "shooting guns" and that they are at the same level of efficiency as a compound bow and no more.

[wolverines]

Let me ask you this, where is it written that the purpose of archery season is to exhibit a certain skill level?




It doesn't. It does seperate the seasons while indecating what "catagory" of weapon can be used during a specific season. Longbows, recurves, and compounds fit in the archery catagory....in my opinion crossbows don't. They should be catagorized with firearms;)

[HunterHawk]

yeah i think you guys read that wrong and i said some choice words in my head about Daniel jumping on my back..... i was saying i personally see no need but i feel like older people or disabled people or women or children who cant pull a bow back with enough weight to kill a deer HAVE AT IT.... im pretty sure i said that in my original post :dizzy:


i never said i didnt want it.... thats why i said good luck to those who want it

:SHOCKED: IM OUT OF THIS THREAD... shouldnt have posted in the first place because it doesnt really make a difference to me one way or the other.... i know if i really wanted something i would push for it too.. i doubt i would ever use a crossbow even if it was legal.... i spend too much money on hunting as it is :)... continue on

[Munsterlndr]

It doesn't. It does seperate the seasons while indecating what "catagory" of weapon can be used during a specific season. Longbows, recurves, and compounds fit in the archery catagory....in my opinion crossbows don't. They should be catagorized with firearms;)

In other words you are basing your categorization purely on outward physical appearance without any consideration for the functional attributes of each kind of weapon.

On one hand we have a group of weapons that store energy generated by flexible bow limbs which are in some cases given an increased mechanical advantage by the use of cams. This group of weapons use a bladed arrow that is driven by the stored energy which is transferred to the arrow by a bowstring upon the release of the stored tension and which runs out of the required energy to cleanly harvest game within a short distance (typically under 50 yards).

The other group of weapons uses the energy that is generated by the combustion of some form of gunpowder to propel a lead or copper projectile over long distances (hundreds to thousands of yards).

Kind of obvious which weapon belongs in which category if you ask me, at least if you approach the question with any degree of intellectual honesty. ;)

[wolverines]

Kind of obvious which weapon belongs in which category if you ask me, at least if you approach the question with any degree of intellectual honesty.



Apparenty not as obvious as you'd think. For instance when a croosbow hunter shoulders his weapon, gets his cheek down tight against the stock, concentrates on his target through the scope, gently takes off the saftey, settles the crooshairs on the shoulder, and slowly squeezes the trigger...yep, sounds obvious to me where it belongs too.


Oh by the way, bows shoot what you referred to as "bladed arrows"...crossbows shoot bolts:coolgleam

[Munsterlndr]

Apparenty not as obvious as you'd think. For instance when a croosbow hunter shoulders his weapon, gets his cheek down tight against the stock, concentrates on his target through the scope, gently takes off the saftey, settles the crooshairs on the shoulder, and slowly squeezes the trigger...yep, sounds obvious to me where it belongs too.


Oh by the way, bows shoot what you referred to as "bladed arrows"...crossbows shoot bolts:coolgleam

Thank you for confirming that you are ignoring function over physical attributes. Where in your description is the combustion of the gunpowder? Yeah, I thought so, you happened to forget that part. And bolts are essentially shorter arrows, unless you have them confused with bullets, which from your apparent lack of observational skills would be entirely understandable. :lol:

And I'm equally sure that when you are tricking out bows at Gander that you never sell trigger's, scopes with crosshairs, red dots, etc. for vertical bows, right? ;)

[Falk]

Crossbows should be reserved for people with disabilities. Way to much like a gun to be allowed in archery season. All you gun hunters or wanna be bow hunters that are pushing for this, forget about it. It is not going to happen.

[M1Garand]

For instance when a croosbow hunter shoulders his weapon, gets his cheek down tight against the stock, concentrates on his target through the scope, gently takes off the saftey, settles the crooshairs on the shoulder, and slowly squeezes the trigger...yep, sounds obvious to me where it belongs too.

Oh by the way, bows shoot what you referred to as "bladed arrows"...crossbows shoot bolts:coolgleam

You can mince words all you want but the fact is, a bolt is a short arrow. You do know there are red dot and laser sights for compounds now don't you?

And slice it any way you want, a crossbow is archery equipment. It fires a bolt (an arrow) propelled with limbs, sometimes cams and a string. Not a projectile with an explosive charge. Pretty easy to see what group it belongs in....not to mention by law it does not meet the legal description of a firearm. but I wouldn't care if they let them in firearm, archery or both seasons. I've nothing to fear.

And if you want to beat the skill drum, then how about you drop your compound with all the gadgets and pick up a recurve or long bow. I remember the same things being said when compounds came out. They now have releases, 65%+ let off, sights (including laser one and red dot) carbon arrows, tree stands, mechanical broadheads, hi tech rests, etc., etc. Those are all ok but if someone were to choose to use a crossbow...that's sacrilege. I don't think I'd use one...I see them as cumbersome (they are not balanced or have the pointablity of a rifle), noisy and you only get one shot. But I sure don't care if someone else wishes to use one.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

Crossbows should be reserved for people with disabilities. Way to much like a gun to be allowed in archery season. All you gun hunters or wanna be bow hunters that are pushing for this, forget about it. It is not going to happen.

FALK, GO BACK ON THE COUCH and have some more KOOLAID. there are more bow hunters pushing for the crossbow than you ever dreamed and believe me you're dreaming with a statement like "way to much like a gun". i hear the koolaid wagon coming, make sure you get another glass full. CROSSBOW ARE COMING, SO MOVE OVER ALL YOU LITTLE GREEDY COMPOUND HUNTERS AND LEARN TO *****SHARE*****. YOU ALREADY MOVED IN ON THE LONG BOW AND RECURVE HUNTERS. don't worry i won't shoot your deer, i'll shoot one of MICHIGANS DEER.

[One Eye]

Hunterhawk -

A couple of thoughts. As you noted, when you switched from a long bow to a compound, you noticed an increase in success rate. This is not surprising because data from states who break out the harvest success rates for different weapons shows that overall compound bow users have a higher success rate than long bow users.

Data from other states and from Michigan also shows that firearms hunters have a higher success rate than bow hunters do. Again, this is not surprising since firearms have a much longer effective killing range than bows do.

Despite what you might think, this same data also show that the success rate between crossbow uses and vertical bow users is virtually identical or in some cases leans slightly to the advantage of vertical bow users.

So unlike compounds over long bows or firearms over bows, there is no inherent advantage to using a crossbow over a vertical bow.

Keep in mind that I am talking about an inherent advantage that would result in increasing the likelihood of harvesting a deer. This is not to say that there are not differences between the two weapons. Some of those differences are viewed as an advantage by some and some as a disadvantage. It comes down to a matter of personal preference, just as it does when you decide to use a high let off on your compound or any of the other technological gadgets that are available to bow hunters.

Now let me ask you this. If you accept the fact that guys using a crossbow have no inherent advantage over vertical bows that will increase their chances of successfully harvesting a deer, why would it make any difference to you whether another hunter chooses to use one?

Sorry, but I don't buy it Perhaps this is the perception for those who do not BOWHUNT nor have tried to actually draw a "bow" in the presence of their prey animal. A cocked weapon that simply needs to be pointed and a trigger pulled is markedly easier and more effective than an hand drawn bow.

If you do not believe this, then please explain why over 65% of early season hunters (stop calling it ARCHERY season) in OHIO are now using the crossbow. In addition, this percentage continues to climb! Also, please explain why the success rate in that same state is higher for the crossbow users than the bow users.

If you are selling effectiveness, then I will repeat the same statement I continue to make. Simply make deer season an "any weapons" season and be done with it. After all, why can't those single weapon, gun hunters hunt when it is warm and the pre-rut is underway??????

BE HEARD, SAY NO TO CROSSBOWS IN "ARCHERY" SEASON!!!

[One Eye]

FALK, GO BACK ON THE COUCH and have some more KOOLAID. there are more bow hunters pushing for the crossbow than you ever dreamed and believe me you're dreaming with a statement like "way to much like a gun". i hear the koolaid wagon coming, make sure you get another glass full. CROSSBOW ARE COMING, SO MOVE OVER ALL YOU LITTLE GREEDY COMPOUND HUNTERS AND LEARN TO *****SHARE*****. YOU ALREADY MOVED IN ON THE LONG BOW AND RECURVE HUNTERS. don't worry i won't shoot your deer, i'll shoot one of MICHIGANS DEER.

What you really mean is that there are more people pushing for the crossbow to make things "easier" so they don't have to actually work at their hunting. At least be honest and admit that this is all about special interest money and the fact that our society continues to get lazier and into "instant gratification". Do you support a license decrease when the magical crossbow brings all these "new" hunters out? Ooops, I forgot that the crossbow states are still losing hunters!

I do appreciate your honesty in regards to not being interested in sportsmen getting along or uniting. I can't wait to hear your "opinion" when opportunities are reduced or "any weapons" proposals come next. Sure hope you don't need my support for anything too important in the future :rolleyes:
Dan

[Liv4Huntin']

My catagory would have to be 'unrestricted .... I hunt with gun but can no longer use a bow and don't 'qualify' for a crossbow.' So.... none of the above. BUT.... I still consider myself an archery hunter.... at heart. And I'm not about to give up........
~ m ~

[Liv4Huntin']

What you really mean is that there are more people pushing for the crossbow to make things "easier" so they don't have to actually work at their hunting. At least be honest and admit that this is all about special interest money and the fact that our society continues to get lazier and into "instant gratification". Dan


"EASIER"?????? as in stabilizers, string silencers, pendulum sights, steady rests for compounds, lighted sights, 99% let-off, and on and on -- YOU KNOW, THOSE THINGS THAT ARE ALL READY AVAILABLE FOR COMPOUNDS???? Oh.... and who said HUNTING HAS TO BE WORK???????? JEEEEESHH !!!
~ m ~

[Falk]

One Eye. You are so right. Anything to make it easier. If you dont have good archery skills, stick to gun hunting. If you are not willing to spend the time to become a good shot with a bow, stick to gun hunting. Hey Polski, for your info, I was shooting a recurve bow before you born. Maybe you should have a glass of kool aid. I had this conversation yesterday with a DNR biologist, and he sure doesnt think this is going to happen anytime soon.

[Munsterlndr]

Sorry, but I don't buy it Perhaps this is the perception for those who do not BOWHUNT nor have tried to actually draw a "bow" in the presence of their prey animal. A cocked weapon that simply needs to be pointed and a trigger pulled is markedly easier and more effective than an hand drawn bow.

If you do not believe this, then please explain why over 65% of early season hunters (stop calling it ARCHERY season) in OHIO are now using the crossbow. In addition, this percentage continues to climb! Also, please explain why the success rate in that same state is higher for the crossbow users than the bow users.


Always a pleasure to discuss this topic with you Dan, since you are such an open minded individual who will look at the facts instead of just unsubstantiated conjecture. ;)

You don't buy it? Fine, nobody is asking you to hunt with a crossbow. I suspect that you never have since you seem to assume that there is no motion entailed in bringing a crossbow to our shoulder. Ever been busted by a whitetail while hunting with a firearm? I have, dozens of times. How can that be if you just have to shoot it off of a rest?

There are advantages and disadvantages to a crossbow just like there is to a longbow or a compound bow. Yes with a crossbow you don't have to pull back the string in the presence of game. You don't have to do that either with a high let off compound where the hunter is capable of holding it at full draw for three or four minutes. You can't make a second shot very easily with a crossbow. Have you ever taken more than one shot at a specific deer, Dan? I have with my bow and I think that any honest archer will agree that there is often the opportunity for a follow up shot. Not going to happen with a crossbow.

Why has the crossbow become more popular than the vertical bow in Ohio? Well I can't say for sure but I'll offer the following conjecture. According to the Ohio DNR much if not most of the crossbow hunting in Ohio is done in their urban deer zones. These tend to be in more populated areas. Some hunters may feel that they can make a more accurate shot with a crossbow and thus reduce the likelihood of a deer running to far and ending up dieing on somebodies front lawn in these urban zones. Is accuracy a problem? Why would someone be concerned that a weapon might be "too" accurate, thus insuring a quick, humane harvest? Please explain to me why you would be opposed to a weapon based on it's potential accuracy?

As far as the success rate, you are mistaken. According to Mike Tonkovich of the Ohio DNR (head big game biologist) the harvest success rate for the two weapons is virtually identical.

If using a crossbow allows some hunters to be slightly more accurate, thus insuring fewer lost, wounded deer, while at the same time having an overall harvest success rate that is identical to vertical bow users, why should you have any concern over what weapon they choose to use?

Here is a link to a copy of an article from an Ohio DNR publication that might clear up a few misconceptions for you. Anybody looking at this issue owes it to themselves to read this article. Follow the link and then Scroll down to the article entitled "Bowhunting: an important deer management tool". It's a quick two page article but it shares a lot of truth about hunting deer with a crossbow.

Put aside all of your pre-conceived notions for once and try and make an honest assessment of it. I know that is sometimes hard for people to do but intellectual honesty demands it. ;)

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/9/pdf/WildOhioFALL2005.pdf

[Munsterlndr]

One Eye. You are so right. Anything to make it easier. If you dont have good archery skills, stick to gun hunting. If you are not willing to spend the time to become a good shot with a bow, stick to gun hunting. Hey Polski, for your info, I was shooting a recurve bow before you born. Maybe you should have a glass of kool aid. I had this conversation yesterday with a DNR biologist, and he sure doesnt think this is going to happen anytime soon.

So Falk, you are opposed to someone using a weapon that might be "too" accurate? Why?

Do you honestly believe that all 309,000 bow hunters in Michigan spend the necessary time to insure accuracy?

No deer go lost or unrecovered during bow season due to lack of adequate preparation? You Really and truly believe that? If not, the level of your hypocrisy in your opposition to using crossbows is getting pretty deep. :rolleyes:

[whitetailbloodtrail]

I wouldn't use one, but guess I don't really care if others do. I say "I guess" because I can admit to being a bit greedy about it's possible effect to the deer population. But again, it's hard for me to complain about the possible benefits of a crossbow versus a compound when I gun hunt with a .270 instead of a 12 gauge.

[Falk]

I am not opposed to Crossbows at all as long as it is being used in gun season or for people with a disabilaty. Just my opinion.

[fisher210]

I'm not oposed to crossbows in either season for anyone that wants to use one even tho I don't intend to use one myself. I don't think they are that much more accrurate than a compound, I've shot one and it sure seemed very heavy but it didn't seem to be more accurate beyond 30 to 40 yards and I can shoot that far accurate with my compound.

Howard

[Whit1]

Also, please explain why the success rate in that same state is higher for the crossbow users than the bow users.


To put it simply Dan this is in no way, shape or form true. The success rates for both crossbow archery equipment and vertical bow archery equipment in Ohio is about 15%. This is verifiable from several sources including Ohio DNR personel. The same can be said of every state that has crossbow inclusion.

I offered to send you data from various sources, but to date you have not taken me up on the offer.

For those of you that have an open mind on this topic and would like to read some data/studies/etc. about crossbows I'd be more than happy to email some....there's a ton....of it to you for educational purposes. Just PM me with your email address.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

One Eye. You are so right. Anything to make it easier. If you dont have good archery skills, stick to gun hunting. If you are not willing to spend the time to become a good shot with a bow, stick to gun hunting. Hey Polski, for your info, I was shooting a recurve bow before you born. Maybe you should have a glass of kool aid. I had this conversation yesterday with a DNR biologist, and he sure doesnt think this is going to happen anytime soon.

WELL IF YOU WERE SHOOTING BEFORE 1953 YOU ARE RIGHT. but if you didn't shoot a recurve like i did in 1963 then your still drinking WAY TO MUCH KOOLAID:lol::lol: my dad and i worked almost every weekend at charlie's STARLIGHT ARCHERY just so we could shoot there. oh by the way charlie and his family spent many a night and day at our place hunting deer up north, and lee still does. HAVE ANOTHER GULP OF KOOLAID:lol:

[Liv4Huntin']

Simply make deer season an "any weapons" season and be done with it. After all, why can't those single weapon, gun hunters hunt when it is warm and the pre-rut is underway??????

You may want to be careful what you wish for..... It seems with that logic, you may lose your archery season.
~ m ~

[Liv4Huntin']

One Eye. You are so right. Anything to make it easier. If you dont have good archery skills, stick to gun hunting. If you are not willing to spend the time to become a good shot with a bow, stick to gun hunting.

EASIER??? I do not believe you are UNAWARE of all the trigger releases, pendulum sights, red dot scopes, silencers, stabilizers, compound bow rest, shorter-faster-quieter-lighter technologies in new compound bows, bow slings, bow holders, and on and ON that are available for use on compound bows. HOW can you disparage a fellow hunter who chooses to use a horizontal bow instead of a vertical bow when the success rates from other states are virtually the same?

~ m ~

[north_of_mackinaw]

I didn't get excited when the compound bow came along then got updated, modified, enhanced. Or when the muzzleloader was improved and modernized to where it hardly resembles the one I my dad began using in 1979. Can't see getting all worked up about the cross bow. Not trying to discredit anyone's position just stating mine.

[Swamp Ghost]

Let's see, crossbow's won't recruit new hunters, won't retain hunters, won't increase deer harvest and won't generate the DNR any money.

The MIDNR would legalize their use in BOW season why?

Another weapon is not and never will be the answer to any of MI's deer or hunter recruitment problems.

Change the deer management regulations toward balanced buck/doe ratios/age structure and all the deer population, hunter recruitment/retention and budget concerns will take care of themselves.

Able-bodied hunters only have themselves to blame if they choose not to enjoy Michigan's BOW season.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

Let's see, crossbow's won't recruit new hunters, won't retain hunters, won't increase deer harvest and won't generate the DNR any money.

The MIDNR would legalize their use in BOW season why?

Another weapon is not and never will be the answer to any of MI's deer or hunter recruitment problems.

Change the deer management regulations toward balanced buck/doe ratios/age structure and all the deer population, hunter recruitment/retention and budget concerns will take care of themselves.

Able-bodied hunters only have themselves to blame if they choose not to enjoy Michigan's BOW season.

EXACTLEY WHERE DID YOU GET YOUR BIOLOGY MAJOR AT? maybe you should tell REBBECA she has it all wrong and hire you huh:dizzy:
if crossbows won't do all those things you listed WHY ARE YOU SO SCARED OF THEM ? :lol::lol:

[swampbuck]

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Eye http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2135743#post2135743)
Simply make deer season an "any weapons" season and be done with it. After all, why can't those single weapon, gun hunters hunt when it is warm and the pre-rut is underway??????


great idea!!!!!!:D

[Falk]

What ever. Good luck with your petition. Sorry, I wont be signing on.

[Swamp Ghost]

EXACTLEY WHERE DID YOU GET YOUR BIOLOGY MAJOR AT? maybe you should tell REBBECA she has it all wrong and hire you huh:dizzy:
if crossbows won't do all those things you listed WHY ARE YOU SO SCARED OF THEM ? :lol::lol:

Bruce Levey and George Lindquist aren't Biologists nor employed by the MIDNR but they sure do have Becky's attention now......:D:lol::lol::D

Scared of a crossbow? LOL! It's the able-bodied people that hunt jumping at the chance to use one instead of a BOW that I'm worried about.

[wally-eye]

Let's see, crossbow's won't recruit new hunters, won't retain hunters, won't increase deer harvest and won't generate the DNR any money.

The MIDNR would legalize their use in BOW season why?

Another weapon is not and never will be the answer to any of MI's deer or hunter recruitment problems.

Change the deer management regulations toward balanced buck/doe ratios/age structure and all the deer population, hunter recruitment/retention and budget concerns will take care of themselves.

Able-bodied hunters only have themselves to blame if they choose not to enjoy Michigan's BOW season.


I know "plenty" of able bodied Michigan archers that are chomping at the bit to be able to hunt with a crossbow during archery season.........has nothing what so ever to do with solving any of the deer problems in this state.........matter of fact it wouldn't affect it one way or the other.

Another weapon in the arsenal is "always" a good thing............

[Swamp Ghost]

I know "plenty" of able bodied Michigan archers that are chomping at the bit to be able to hunt with a crossbow during archery season.........has nothing what so ever to do with solving any of the deer problems in this state.........matter of fact it wouldn't affect it one way or the other.

Another weapon in the arsenal is "always" a good thing............

Thanks for making my point

[wally-eye]

Thanks for making my point


Except for the fact that you're chasing "ghosts"...........and we all know they don't exist......

[oldexscrew]

How many "bow" hunters with their super mechanical devices that barely resemble a traditional bow were eager to take up "muzzle-loading" after the original primitive weapon premise was torpedoed by in-line mfrs etc.? Easier?

[Swamp Ghost]

How many "bow" hunters with their super mechanical devices that barely resemble a traditional bow were eager to take up "muzzle-loading" after the original primitive weapon premise was torpedoed by in-line mfrs etc.? Easier?


Barely resembles a bow? Yet it's still a bow. And an in-line is still a muzzleloader.

A crossbow isn't a BOW but does resemble a scoped muzzleloader....

[wally-eye]

Barely resembles a bow? Yet it's still a bow. And an in-line is still a muzzleloader.

A crossbow isn't a BOW but does resemble a scoped muzzleloader....


That would be the funniest looking smokepole I've ever seen and I've owned them since the 60s. :dizzy:

Its also telling that the DNR/NRC considers them a "bow".................:coolgleam

[7MM Magnum]

Let's see, crossbow's won't recruit new hunters, won't retain hunters, won't increase deer harvest and won't generate the DNR any money.

The MIDNR would legalize their use in BOW season why?

Another weapon is not and never will be the answer to any of MI's deer or hunter recruitment problems.

Change the deer management regulations toward balanced buck/doe ratios/age structure and all the deer population, hunter recruitment/retention and budget concerns will take care of themselves.

Able-bodied hunters only have themselves to blame if they choose not to enjoy Michigan's BOW season.


Well I see your over here now spreading more of that
loose change of yours,... :rolleyes::dizzy::lol:

You must be pretty close to $20.32 bout now,... funny how .02 worth will stretch.

Wasn't it about a MONTH ago you said you were done talking about this subject ? :16suspect

[Swamp Ghost]

Well I see your over here now spreading more of that
loose change of yours,... :rolleyes::dizzy::lol:

You must be pretty close to $20.32 bout now,... funny how .02 worth will stretch.

Wasn't it about a MONTH ago you said you were done talking about this subject ? :16suspect

It pays to be frugal and observant

[Swamp Ghost]

That would be the funniest looking smokepole I've ever seen and I've owned them since the 60s. :dizzy:

Its also telling that the DNR/NRC considers them a "bow".................:coolgleam

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[7MM Magnum]

A crossbow isn't a BOW but does resemble a scoped muzzleloader....


Who do you think your kiddin',... man throw a wisker biscuit on that thing, turn it sideways and your talkin a Hoyt compound if I ever saw one !;):lol::evilsmile

[Liv4Huntin']

Let's see, crossbow's won't recruit new hunters, won't retain hunters, won't increase deer harvest and won't generate the DNR any money.

The MIDNR would legalize their use in BOW season why?

Able-bodied hunters only have themselves to blame if they choose not to enjoy Michigan's BOW season.

A better question would be ... WHY NOT?????? They are after all, A BOW !!
Any bow should be used in Michigan's archery season. And if you would read some results from other states that have changed to the 'logical' use of horizontal bows in their archery seasons, you would see they do recruit some new hunters ... you know, those that are 'borderline DISABLED' ..... the very ones the current regulations discriminate against!

How would you respond to Ted Nugent's use of a crossbow? I dare you to call him NOT ABLE-BODIED.

So, to answer your 'why' question....... to give hunters that are now NOT able to hunt, the opportunity to enjoy archery season in Michigan's great outdoors. Equal opportunity.
~ m ~

[M1Garand]

Legal definitions:

(5) "Bow" means a device for propelling an arrow from a string drawn, held, and released by hand if the force used to hold the string in the drawn position is provided by the archer's muscles.

(6) "Crossbow" means a weapon consisting of a bow, with a draw weight of 100 pounds or more, mounted transversely on a stock or frame and designed to fire an arrow, bolt, or quarrel by the release of a bow string controlled by a mechanical or electric trigger with a working safety.

[swampbuck]

"string drawn, held, and released by hand"

How many of the traditional primitive compound bow guys use a release?

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

"string drawn, held, and released by hand"

How many of the traditional primitive compound bow guys use a release?

ABOUT 98%:lol:
BUT ITS NOT A TRIGGER--- its a release:lol::lol::lol:

[wildcoy73]

sure looks like a trigger to me. The point is most hunters are oka with the use of the crossbow during archery season. That was the point I was looking for. Hopefully within the next few years this war will be over and we will be joined by the crossbow hunter come October 1st. For those afraid of them I'll see ya that night in the bar and buy ya a beer to let your tears fall into
















h

[sputty]

Barely resembles a bow? Yet it's still a bow. And an in-line is still a muzzleloader.

A crossbow isn't a BOW but does resemble a scoped muzzleloader....
A cross-bow resembles a muzzleloader? Thats an intelligent comparison.:help:

[7MM Magnum]

A cross-bow resembles a muzzleloader? Thats an intelligent comparison.:help:

It is for those with such a closed mind! :rolleyes::dizzy::16suspect:lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

The point is most hunters are oka with the use of the crossbow during archery season.
















Absolutely 100% untrue

[Swamp Ghost]

A cross-bow resembles a muzzleloader? Thats an intelligent comparison.:help:

Intelligent? I prefer obvious

http://www.newyorkbowhunters.com/pics/xbow2.jpg

http://www.newyorkbowhunters.com/images2/rifle.gif

[Radar420]

Intelligent? I prefer obvious



Yeah, except you failed to point out the giant BOW in the first pic;)

(oh and it even has a quiver:lol:)

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

Absolutely 100% untrue

MORE DRIBBLE ! :fish:with absolutely no facts to back up the statement.
SWAMPGHOST = DRIBBLE MASTER:lol::lol:

[wolverines]

Thank you for confirming that you are ignoring function over physical attributes. Where in your description is the combustion of the gunpowder? Yeah, I thought so, you happened to forget that part. And bolts are essentially shorter arrows, unless you have them confused with bullets, which from your apparent lack of observational skills would be entirely understandable. :lol:

And I'm equally sure that when you are tricking out bows at Gander that you never sell trigger's, scopes with crosshairs, red dots, etc. for vertical bows, right? ;)



I am ignoring the functions you're referring to because they aren't the point...and you're welcome.

The art of hunting with a crossbow is the same as a firearm. You shoot it like a gun, you sight it in like a gun...heck, some are almost as loud as a gun. The limbs, strings, cables, and projectile are not the point.

Take a guy who's only gun hunted and give'em a crossbow and he be just fine. Give'em a bow and he'd be going home hungry.

Maybe with your thinking I can justify hunting with a single shot rifle during muzzle loader season :bash:

[Swamp Ghost]

Dribble? Or Drivel?

Drivel is what an able-bodied hunter clamoring to use a crossbow in BOW season is spewing.

Just be honest, you don't want to take the time it takes to become a BOWhunter. If you did, you already be out their enjoying MI's BOWseason with a BOW.

If BOWhunting with a compound BOW is as easy some folks think, why aren't they willing to use one? Why are they insisting on crossbow inclusion? If hunting is so important and they are so concerned about hunter retention, the health of the herd and "anti-hunters" why aren't they out there hunting with what the MIDNR classifies as a legal weapon?

If they are unwilling to hunt with a BOW - they should wait for a hunting season that more closely matches the effort that they are willing to expend to be in.

Where were all these crossbow guys when Bear produced his crossbow?

Why weren't they fighting for their own crossbow season, just like BOWhunters did?

Crossbow aficionados already can use their weapon of choice legally in gun season but I guess it's not good enough.

[Radar420]

The art of hunting with a crossbow is the same as a firearm.

Take a guy who's only gun hunted and give'em a crossbow and he be just fine. Give'em a bow and he'd be going home hungry.


How can you even make that first comment? With a firearm you have the capability of shooting at a deer so far away (300 yds) that it would never sight you or scent you. Not the case with a crossbow when you still have to wait for a shot within 50 yds.

As for the second statement, if that were the case, then why are less than 40% of the people successful who hunt the regular firearm season?

[Ferg]

Ok - let not get personal please - no need for it -

thanks

ferg....

[Radar420]

Drivel is what an able-bodied hunter clamoring to use a crossbow in BOW season is spewing.


Swamp you throw around the term "able-bodied" in quite a few of your posts (to the point it's in your signature). What is your definition of "able-bodied?"

I'll throw this out - under current regulations my father is "able-bodied" according to the DNR. He has full functionality in his shoulders and arms which would prevent him from getting a crossbow permit. He does, however, have degenerative disc disease and as a result has already lost 4" in height. Due to the blood thinning medication he is on he can't sit outside for long periods of time out in the cold. So here we have someone who is "able-bodied" by one group's definition but who can't hunt during Nov for any extended amount of time(unless it's a warm season). Conversely, he would love to bow hunt but how do you hold up, draw, and aim when you can't even stand upright?

Anytime you try to quantify someone's disability you are invariably going to have some people fall through the cracks (to quote Riva) which is why unrestricted use seems logical (at least to me)

I would also like to add this little thought process I was having. If you (collectively) are so against crossbows during archery season, would you be willing to give up the hunting period from Oct 1 - Nov 14 for a crossbow season? After all, the "able-bodied" archers would still be able to hunt Dec 1 - Jan 1.;)

[MERGANZER]

WOW! 5 pages and its still open:help:

Ganzer

[wolverines]

How can you even make that first comment? With a firearm you have the capability of shooting at a deer so far away (300 yds) that it would never sight you or scent you. Not the case with a crossbow when you still have to wait for a shot within 50 yds.

As for the second statement, if that were the case, then why are less than 40% of the people successful who hunt the regular firearm season?



I'm talking about how the weapon is used, not it's effective range. You can't be serious if you think shooting a crossbow is more similar than shooting a bow:dizzy:

Do you bowhunt? I do, a lot.
Have you ever shot a crossbow? I have, a lot.

Why are less than 40% of the people successful who hunt the regular firearm season...because a great number of the other 60% are lousy hunters, plain and simple.

[Munsterlndr]

I'm talking about how the weapon is used, not it's effective range. You can't be serious if you think shooting a crossbow is more similar than shooting a bow:dizzy:

Do you bowhunt? I do, a lot.
Have you ever shot a crossbow? I have, a lot.

Why are less than 40% of the people successful who hunt the regular firearm season...because a great number of the other 60% are lousy hunters, plain and simple.

The effective range is the point. If you have to get a deer within 40 yards or so due to the limitations of the weapon, is does not matter what it looks like. You may have shot a crossbow at a target under controlled conditions but I would bet pretty big money that you have never hunted deer with one. If you had, you would recognize that there is very little difference in actual use in a hunting situation. And for the record I got my first bow in 1988 and have spent countless hours bow hunting since then. You guys make it sound like drawing on a deer is almost impossible. Deer are wary critters. You can get busted just as easily using a long bow as you can with a crossbow or with a firearm for that matter if you are hunting at close range. The majority of deer that I harvest with a firearm are taken within 50 yards. There have been plenty of times when deer have spooked and I did not get a shot. The key to being successful is scent control and motion control. The weapon you hold in your hand has little to do with it. Anybody that has actually hunted with a variety of weapons will tell you the same thing. Heck, hunting with my 4" barreled .357 magnum with open sights is tougher then hunting with my compound.

As to your second statement, using your logic then 64% of Michigan's bowhunters must be lousy hunters, plain & simple. :rolleyes:

If you fail to harvest a deer it makes you a lousy hunter? Wow. Kind of a broad sweeping statement that I think a large number of hunters might take issue with. For some it's more about the entire experience and not about killing something but whatever floats your boat.

[Radar420]

I'm talking about how the weapon is used, not it's effective range. You can't be serious if you think shooting a crossbow is more similar than shooting a bow:dizzy:

I was referencing the fact that you called it the "art of hunting." I think it takes quite a bit more skill for a person to get within 50 yds of a deer then it would be to go sit in a big box blind and wait for a deer to appear 300 yds away in your food plot/bait pile and then pulling the trigger and being done with it.

To me the "art of hunting" is getting so close to your quarry that you can see its breath, see each one of its whiskers on its chin, and it not having the faintest clue that you're there. You need that to be successful with a crossbow, it's not always a factor with a gun.

[Swamp Ghost]

Swamp you throw around the term "able-bodied" in quite a few of your posts (to the point it's in your signature). What is your definition of "able-bodied?"

I'll throw this out - under current regulations my father is "able-bodied" according to the DNR. He has full functionality in his shoulders and arms which would prevent him from getting a crossbow permit. He does, however, have degenerative disc disease and as a result has already lost 4" in height. Due to the blood thinning medication he is on he can't sit outside for long periods of time out in the cold. So here we have someone who is "able-bodied" by one group's definition but who can't hunt during Nov for any extended amount of time(unless it's a warm season). Conversely, he would love to bow hunt but how do you hold up, draw, and aim when you can't even stand upright?

Anytime you try to quantify someone's disability you are invariably going to have some people fall through the cracks (to quote Riva) which is why unrestricted use seems logical (at least to me)

I would also like to add this little thought process I was having. If you (collectively) are so against crossbows during archery season, would you be willing to give up the hunting period from Oct 1 - Nov 14 for a crossbow season? After all, the "able-bodied" archers would still be able to hunt Dec 1 - Jan 1.;)

The disability criteria was established by the DNR not me. I have said that I have no problem with the disabled or even the aged using a crossbow. The DNR saw fit to establish certain criteria to meet before they allowed disabled hunters the advantage of a crossbow. The DNR see's it as an advantage that disabled folks need in order to participate in the same season as bowhunters.

I agree with the DNR the disabled need it, able-bodied people do not.

Like I've said before, I am sure the MBH and other bowhunting organizations would not be opposed to a "Riva-like" proposal for disabled hunters if it legislated the fact that crossbows are different than bows and should not be mixed.

[7MM Magnum]

I agree with the DNR the disabled need it, able-bodied people do not.

Like I've said before, I am sure the MBH and other bowhunting organizations would not be opposed to a "Riva-like" proposal for disabled hunters if it legislated the fact that crossbows are different than bows and should not be mixed.

That ain't ever gonna' happen,...a crossBOW is still a BOW,... no matter how you want to TRY and slice it. Once the box has been opened,... ;):evilsmile



So Swamp,...still addin' some more of that loose change you've got jingling in your pocket? :lol:

You must be up to around $30 worth by now.:gaga:

[Swamp Ghost]

That ain't ever gonna' happen,...a crossBOW is still a BOW,... no matter how you want to TRY and slice it. Once the box has been opened,... ;):evilsmile



So Swamp,...still addin' some more of that loose change you've got jingling in your pocket? :lol:

You must be up to around $30 worth by now.:gaga:

It is not a bow and insisting it is an irrational argument, no matter how you slice it.:dizzy:

If it was a BOW, you could hunt with it in Oct. with the rest of the BOWhunters......

43 states agree with me and the other 7 that allow crossbows know it it as well.

[Riva]

Dribble? Or Drivel?

Drivel is what an able-bodied hunter clamoring to use a crossbow in BOW season is spewing.

Just be honest, you don't want to take the time it takes to become a BOWhunter. If you did, you already be out their enjoying MI's BOWseason with a BOW.

If BOWhunting with a compound BOW is as easy some folks think, why aren't they willing to use one? Why are they insisting on crossbow inclusion? If hunting is so important and they are so concerned about hunter retention, the health of the herd and "anti-hunters" why aren't they out there hunting with what the MIDNR classifies as a legal weapon?

If they are unwilling to hunt with a BOW - they should wait for a hunting season that more closely matches the effort that they are willing to expend to be in.

Where were all these crossbow guys when Bear produced his crossbow?

Why weren't they fighting for their own crossbow season, just like BOWhunters did?

Crossbow aficionados already can use their weapon of choice legally in gun season but I guess it's not good enough.

Holy snirtz, Swamp; that sure is a lot of anti-crossbow tick points.

So, it takes time to become a bow hunter. How much time? I would guess enough time to become proficient, eh? Conversely, you state it takes less time to become proficient with a crossbow. OK, let's assume that it takes less time to become proficient compared to a compound bow. What could this mean? It means we now have two "proficient" people in the woods. I fail to see how this fact denigrates YOUR hunting experience unless, of course, you resent people taking a supposed quicker course to become proficient.

Since no thinking person can argue for being less than proficient, please share with us, what factor(s) there is about crossbows that degenerate your own, personal hunting experience while sitting in your own tree, with your own bow, in your own hunting spot?

I think we all know the answer, don't we?

[7MM Magnum]

Riva,... the term is Selfish ! ;)

[M1Garand]

Take a guy who's only gun hunted and give'em a crossbow and he be just fine. Give'em a bow and he'd be going home hungry.



We could change your crossbow to "compound" and your bow to "recurve" or "long bow" and get the same effect. As much easier as your compound is then the recurve I learned on (and still have), I suppose you also wouldn't have a problem if they decided to not allow bows with cams, use of releases, let offs, sights (esp red dot, laser, or pendulem sights), rests and all the other bells and whistles? Those things just make it far too easy and take away from the challenge of a recurve or longbow....

[7MM Magnum]

Intelligent? I prefer obvious

http://www.newyorkbowhunters.com/pics/xbow2.jpg

http://www.newyorkbowhunters.com/images2/rifle.gif


Ahhhh Yes,... another fallacy debunked,... check the link below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2bsamGLGpc


And by the way Swamp,... check the stats in the ongoing poll,... 50% are positively for the crossBOW and 37% (your buddies) are against currently.:lol:

[Whit1]

The disability criteria was established by the DNR not me. I have said that I have no problem with the disabled or even the aged using a crossbow. The DNR saw fit to establish certain criteria to meet before they allowed disabled hunters the advantage of a crossbow. The DNR see's it as an advantage that disabled folks need in order to participate in the same season as bowhunters.

I agree with the DNR the disabled need it, able-bodied people do not.

Like I've said before, I am sure the MBH and other bowhunting organizations would not be opposed to a "Riva-like" proposal for disabled hunters if it legislated the fact that crossbows are different than bows and should not be mixed.

Jamie, the MBH had a major influence in MI's current crossbow regs. With the passing of the American Disabilities Act in 1990 (?) it was clear there would have to be some accomodation for the disabled. MBH got right in on the act and lobbied for a very strict interpretation of "disabled". MI's current crossbows for the disabled law eliminates over 90% of those who are disabled.

At the present time MBH is working hard to make the crossbows for the disabled regs even stricter in regard to the process necessary for a disabled hunter to get a permit. It always amazes me how many so-called sportsmen feel they have the right to define "disabled" and accuse anyone who doesn't fit their definition as just a "lazy" hunter who wants the easy way out. I haven't walked in the shoes of the disabled, at least not on a permanent basis....yet.....and would never try to define the term and I certainly wouldn't accuse them of cheating in order to get a permit.

As for your last sentence I doubt very much that would be the case and if they ever did I'd lose even more respect...what little I now have...of MBH for using the disabled as a pawn/negotiating tool to get what they want.

[Swamp Ghost]

Holy snirtz, Swamp; that sure is a lot of anti-crossbow tick points.

So, it takes time to become a bow hunter. How much time? I would guess enough time to become proficient, eh? Conversely, you state it takes less time to become proficient with a crossbow. OK, let's assume that it takes less time to become proficient compared to a compound bow. What could this mean? It means we now have two "proficient" people in the woods. I fail to see how this fact denigrates YOUR hunting experience unless, of course, you resent people taking a supposed quicker course to become proficient.

Since no thinking person can argue for being less than proficient, please share with us, what factor(s) there is about crossbows that degenerate your own, personal hunting experience while sitting in your own tree, with your own bow, in your own hunting spot?

I think we all know the answer, don't we?

The fact they refuse to use a legal weapon to enjoy the same season bowhunters enjoy. Instead they hope, pray and rally for crossbow legalization.

I resent people belittling bowhunters and bowhunting. I resent the fact that people choose not to hunt with a bow but expect bowhunters to welcome an entirely different weapon, that isn't an advantage or is advantaged, (depends on who you talk to OHDNR or MIDNR) into a season that bowhunters fought for. I resent that fact that groups that say they want to help disabled hunters and then gleefully provide slanted information for crossbow inclusion for all.

I know alot of proficient firearm hunters that shoot their weapons as much or more than I do. I still do want them in the woods unless they are using a bow during bowseason.

If you want to hunt with a crossbow lobby for your own season or just pick up a bow and hunt with bowhunters.

[Swamp Ghost]

Jamie, the MBH had a major influence in MI's current crossbow regs. With the passing of the American Disabilities Act in 1990 (?) it was clear there would have to be some accomodation for the disabled. MBH got right in on the act and lobbied for a very strict interpretation of "disabled". MI's current crossbows for the disabled law eliminates over 90% of those who are disabled.

At the present time MBH is working hard to make the crossbows for the disabled regs even stricter in regard to the process necessary for a disabled hunter to get a permit. It always amazes me how many so-called sportsmen feel they have the right to define "disabled" and accuse anyone who doesn't fit their definition as just a "lazy" hunter who wants the easy way out. I haven't walked in the shoes of the disabled, at least not on a permanent basis....yet.....and would never try to define the term and I certainly wouldn't accuse them of cheating in order to get a permit.

As for your last sentence I doubt very much that would be the case and if they ever did I'd lose even more respect...what little I now have...of MBH for using the disabled as a pawn/negotiating tool to get what they want.

Like I have said before the MBH is protecting bowhunting and bowhunters.

There are alot of folks abusing the system in regards for determining disability and the crossbow permit process. It's unfortunate that these bad apples have spoiled the bunch.

The process should be difficult, it shouldn't be like getting a handi-capped parking permit. Do I agree with all of it? Nope. Do I see why the MBH has to play hardball? Yep.

If a hunter wants to hunt during bowseason he should do it with a bow. If they need a crossbow to participate with bowhunters they should get it. But unfortunately not only is the MBH fighting against folks eager to abuse the current crossbow permit system it also has to fight against crossbow groups that lobbied for crossbow inclusion in firearm season that now want the bowseason.

As has been proven time and time again if you give crossbow groups an inch they want a mile.

If a group is truly only concerned about the disabled hunter being able to enjoy the outdoors and hunting with bowhunters they should absolutely work with the MBH and pursue legislation similar to what I have talked about. It would be a slam dunk for the disabled hunters of MI.

[7MM Magnum]

The fact they refuse to use a legal weapon to enjoy the same season bowhunters enjoy. Instead they hope, pray and rally for crossbow legalization.

I resent people belittling bowhunters and bowhunting. I resent the fact that people choose not to hunt with a bow but expect bowhunters to welcome an entirely different weapon, that isn't an advantage or is advantaged, (depends on who you talk to OHDNR or MIDNR) into a season that bowhunters fought for. I resent that fact that groups that say they want to help disabled hunters and then gleefully provide slanted information for crossbow inclusion for all.

I know alot of proficient firearm hunters that shoot their weapons as much or more than I do. I still do want them in the woods unless they are using a bow during bowseason.

If you want to hunt with a crossbow lobby for your own season or just pick up a bow and hunt with bowhunters.

As far as the crossBOW goes it IS a legal weapon,.. it's just going to be allowed a little more expanded use by people very shortly.

As far as bowhunting goes,... I've been a practicing archer since the mid 50's,..... long bow, recurve, and now compound. Why after 40+ years of bowhunting should I lobby for a separate season based solely on the selfish attitudes of some of the NEWER traditionalists out there??

Ain't gonna happen,.. and the sooner some of you out there realize that another form of BOW HUNTING is on the horizon the better.

All the whining and selfish attitudes of this newer generation just irk me. Get off your high horses and come back down to earth! There's a new dawn coming,.. and you all might as well just suck it up and face the FACTS! :16suspect :mad::rolleyes::dizzy:

Whiners,... the lot of you! :gaga:

[Swamp Ghost]

As far as the crossBOW goes it IS a legal weapon,.. it's just going to be allowed a little more expanded use by people very shortly.

As far as bowhunting goes,... I've been a practicing archer since the mid 50's,..... long bow, recurve, and now compound. Why after 40+ years of bowhunting should I lobby for a separate season based solely on the selfish attitudes of some of the NEWER traditionalists out there??

Ain't gonna happen,.. and the sooner some of you out there realize that another form of BOW HUNTING is on the horizon the better.

All the whining and selfish attitudes of this newer generation just irk me. Get off your high horses and come back down to earth! There's a new dawn coming,.. and you all might as well just suck it up and face the FACTS! :16suspect :mad::rolleyes::dizzy:

Whiners,... the lot of you! :gaga:

Crossbows are allowed by permit, big difference. No sense in arguing semantics. They are restricted for a reason. They are used by folks that need them. If a disabled hunter needs a crossbow they should get one but the current tactics employed by crossbow groups is only hurting the hunters that need them to participate.

Hunting with a crossbow is crossbowhunting not bowhunting. The sooner folks comprehend that the better. The sooner certain folks admit that they are different the better their chances are for a seperate season for their weapon of choice.

I think crossbowhunting could be fun, in it's own season.

As far as the crossBOW goes it IS a legal weapon,.. it's just going to be allowed a little more expanded use by people very shortly.

As far as bowhunting goes,... I've been a practicing archer since the mid 50's,..... long bow, recurve, and now compound. Why after 40+ years of bowhunting should I lobby for a separate season based solely on the selfish attitudes of some of the NEWER traditionalists out there??

Ain't gonna happen,.. and the sooner some of you out there realize that another form of BOW HUNTING is on the horizon the better.

All the whining and selfish attitudes of this newer generation just irk me. Get off your high horses and come back down to earth! There's a new dawn coming,.. and you all might as well just suck it up and face the FACTS! :16suspect :mad::rolleyes::dizzy:

Whiners,... the lot of you! :gaga:

Crossbows are allowed by permit, big difference. No sense in arguing semantics. They are restricted for a reason. They are used by folks that need them. If a disabled hunter needs a crossbow they should get one but the current tactics employed by crossbow groups is only hurting the hunters that need them to participate.

Hunting with a crossbow is crossbowhunting not bowhunting. The sooner folks comprehend that the better. The sooner certain folks admit that they are different the better their chances are for a seperate season for their weapon of choice.

I think crossbowhunting could be fun, in it's own season.

Whining? Selfish? I'm not the one wanting an additional, entirely different weapon, that's use is restricted by the DNR, included in an already established season. If their desire to hunt is what they say it is they would already be in the woods with a bow.

[sputty]

Crossbows are allowed by permit, big difference. No sense in arguing semantics. They are restricted for a reason. They are used by folks that need them. If a disabled hunter needs a crossbow they should get one but the current tactics employed by crossbow groups is only hurting the hunters that need them to participate.

Hunting with a crossbow is crossbowhunting not bowhunting. The sooner folks comprehend that the better. The sooner certain folks admit that they are different the better their chances are for a seperate season for their weapon of choice.

I think crossbowhunting could be fun, in it's own season.
And I would have to respond that the sooner that folks comprehend the facts the better. Legalize crossbows for everyone during the entire Michigan archery season.

[7MM Magnum]

Swamp,...That's YOUR personal view,... however there seem to be MANY here as elsewhere who do NOT look at things the same way as you do,.. just look at the current poll.

Your MBH clan is soon to be doomed,... just WHO's to state WHAT is a limitation and WHO has the right to determine what severities get the nod and WHO doesn't?? ANY handicap should qualify the person,.. and as far as I'm concerned,... there shouldn't be any limitations on who can use a crossBOW! :rant:

Limited out in tags is limited out,... there shouldn't be ANY distinguishing difference in which weapon is used to complete the task. Weapons using a string,... or a weapon using a ignitable charge. You only get so many tags once they are used up,... your done hunting. :16suspect

[Swamp Ghost]

Swamp,...That's YOUR personal view,... however there seem to be MANY here as elsewhere who do NOT look at things the same way as you do,.. just look at the current poll.

Your MBH clan is soon to be doomed,... just WHO's to state WHAT is a limitation and WHO has the right to determine what severities get the nod and WHO doesn't?? ANY handicap should qualify the person,.. and as far as I'm concerned,... there shouldn't be any limitations on who can use a crossBOW! :rant:

Limited out in tags is limited out,... there shouldn't be ANY distinguishing difference in which weapon is used to complete the task. Weapons using a string,... or a weapon using a ignitable charge. You only get so many tags once they are used up,... your done hunting. :16suspect
..
The poll is pretty scientific..... just like the NJ survey..:lol:

Even that poll showed that NJ hunters did not want unrestricted crossbows in the bowseason.

You feel that there should be no limitations for crossbow use. I feel there should, so do 43 state agencies.

Bowseason is about how, not how many.

The population control hammer in MI is the gun, it's users and their season.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

Crossbows are allowed by permit, big difference. No sense in arguing semantics. They are restricted for a reason. They are used by folks that need them. If a disabled hunter needs a crossbow they should get one but the current tactics employed by crossbow groups is only hurting the hunters that need them to participate.

Hunting with a crossbow is crossbowhunting not bowhunting. The sooner folks comprehend that the better. The sooner certain folks admit that they are different the better their chances are for a seperate season for their weapon of choice.

I think crossbowhunting could be fun, in it's own season.

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!:evilsmile OUR OWN BOW SEASON WILL START OCTOBER 1ST AND END ON JAN 2nd :evilsmileas more and more young adults/women and elderly bow hunters buy crossbows and hunt with them ALL OVER AMERICA. you do remember AMERICA, THE PART ABOUT ***WE THE PEOPLE*** IT'S GOT A NICE LITTLE RING TO IT. just as the COMPOUND REPLACED THE RECURVE AND LONG BOW NUMBERS SO SHALL THE CROSSBOW REPLACE THE COMPOUND BOW :gaga:WITH ALL IT SUPER DUPPER WHIZ BANG DELUXE DEVICES THAT MAKE IT what it is today:gaga:. you may notice i didn't even say anything about disabilities, thats because i hate that word it's a very negative word. they are included in the young adults/women and elderly bow hunters because disabilities affect every one from one degree to another. and i for one will not pick and choose which one is worse than another so one group can hunt while the other cannot.

[7MM Magnum]

Swamp,.. it's pretty funny that you ALWAYS pick New Jersey as your pointing object,.. having a hard time with other subjects? :lol:

As I stated earlier,.. look at OUR poll,... the one right here on the MICHIGAN website which your obviously trying to ignore. :lol::lol::lol:

CrossBOWS are winning,... YOUR losing. Maybe you should move to New Jersey! :cwm27: :gaga:

[Swamp Ghost]

Swamp,.. it's pretty funny that you ALWAYS pick New Jersey as your pointing object,.. having a hard time with other subjects? :lol:

As I stated earlier,.. look at OUR poll,... the one right here on the MICHIGAN website which your obviously trying to ignore. :lol::lol::lol:

CrossBOWS are winning,... YOUR losing. Maybe you should move to New Jersey! :cwm27: :gaga:

Seems some are having a hard time with reality and comprehending what a statistically reliable survey/poll is.....

[7MM Magnum]

Sounds like you've been "Down in the Swamp" too long,... You can't accept the votes from your peers and it's right there in front of your face! :lol::lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

just as the COMPOUND REPLACED THE RECURVE AND LONG BOW NUMBERS SO SHALL THE CROSSBOW REPLACE THE COMPOUND BOW :gaga:WITH ALL IT SUPER DUPPER WHIZ BANG DELUXE DEVICES THAT MAKE IT what it is today:gaga:.

Replaced? I believe alot of bowhunters still use them, matter of fact I plan on taking up the longbow once my new Whisperstik arrives. The compound bow is still and will always be a bow.


you may notice i didn't even say anything about disabilities, thats because i hate that word it's a very negative word. they are included in the young adults/women and elderly bow hunters because disabilities affect every one from one degree to another. and i for one will not pick and choose which one is worse than another so one group can hunt while the other cannot.

Negative word? I don't see how so and I know a few disabled folks who would agree with me.

Like I said, if you need a crossbow to participate in bowseason because you cannot draw a bow you should get one.

[Riva]

The disability criteria was established by the DNR not me. I have said that I have no problem with the disabled or even the aged using a crossbow. The DNR saw fit to establish certain criteria to meet before they allowed disabled hunters the advantage of a crossbow. The DNR see's it as an advantage that disabled folks need in order to participate in the same season as bowhunters.

I agree with the DNR the disabled need it, able-bodied people do not.

Like I've said before, I am sure the MBH and other bowhunting organizations would not be opposed to a "Riva-like" proposal for disabled hunters if it legislated the fact that crossbows are different than bows and should not be mixed.

Finally, we get to touch on a subject that is near and dear to my heart: disabled hunters, specifically: the disabled hunter and crossbows.

First off, I want to express my appreciation that you have "no problem with the disabled". Regrettably, I have a HUGE problem with the disabled! And, that's because not every disabled person has the opportunity to participate equally in Michigan's archery season. Why is that? It's because Michigan has the most narrowly defined and overly restrictive criteria of any State in the United States of America as it relates to a person with a disability being able to obtain a permit to hunt game with a crossbow.

Secondly, the DNR didn't "see fit" to sqwatt!. For the record...the Michigan Bow Hunters Association (MBH) played a significant role in writing the current criteria that would allow a person with a disability to take game with a crossbow (look it up, OK?). This is a group with a open and longstanding, anti-crossbow advocacy. This should make any thinking person become suspect of their motives, then and now. In retrospect, having the MBH play ANY part in the creation of the original/current criteria was akin to having the British write our Declaration of Independence!

Third, and finally, the DNR did NOT "allow disabled hunters the advantage of a crossbow". Read my lips...a crossbow is recognized as a "reasonable accommodation" that provides a person with a disability,--ANY DISABILITY-- the opportunity to participate as an equal within the same activity. It is NOT an "advantage" as you describe. It is a reasonable accommodation.

Now, Swamp, I'd like to ask you one question...with regards to MBH's "official" position statement regarding the proposed expansion of the criteria that allows a person with a disability to take game with a crossbow.. The MBH's position (which they co-authored back in 1991) is:

"MBH supports the current standard for determining crossbow permit eligibility for physically challenged hunters. However we are opposed to lowering the level of permanent disability from 80% to 60%. Also, we would be very supportive of a more vigorous scrutiny of crossbow permit applications by the DNR Law division to further address the abuse issue."

My position on these matters is this: a "more vigorous scrutiny" cannot be defined as "bring more in". It can only mean; "keep more out".

And, how is that accomplished? Here's how:

1. Before... By discouraging those that have a disability from having an examination in the first place.

2. During...By intimidating the professional conducting the examination

3. After...By harassing those that already have a permit to publicly quantify their disability to an untrained an unqualified stranger, ad infinitum.

To add insult to injury, the clamorous minority (MBH) has the audacity to suggest that we divert preciously needed DNR financial and manpower resources to this effort--all in an effort to serve their selfish, venomous, anti-crossbow agenda. In case you forgot, that's your money! Furthermore, I don't know about you but, I, for one, have real difficulty supporting the notion of a "disability police".

Swamp, my question to you.....what sayeth ye?

[wildcoy73]

Have not put the time in to be a bowhunter? Well I have almost 24 years of bowhunting under the belt and almost 30 years of shooting my bow. So swamp i guess thats not a good reason I have not put my time in. LOL
I just can not grasp why your so afraid of this weapon? Maybe you could give me some facts to sway me back to not allowing everyone the chance to use them, but the must be facts. Untill than I will push hard for the allowing of the crossbow during the Michigan Archery Season. Not the Swamp's Archery Season. Plus I see i have the support I need to get this on the move and into the woods soon.

[Swamp Ghost]

Regrettably, I have a HUGE problem with the disabled! And, that's because not every disabled person has the opportunity to participate equally in Michigan's archery season. Why is that? It's because Michigan has the most narrowly defined and overly restrictive criteria of any State in the United States of America as it relates to a person with a disability being able to obtain a permit to hunt game with a crossbow.

That's exactly why you should pursue legislation like I have talked about. Put the ball in the MBH's court. Let's see if they are the disabled hunter haters you have made them out to be.

Let's eliminate the physical therapist from the crossbow permit process and legislate the fact that crossbows are different than bows and should not be mixed into the same season.

I'd call that a reasonable accommodation for all parties involved in the process. Let's ensure that the hunters that need a crossbow get one, get in the woods and participate equally with bowhunters.

[Swamp Ghost]

I just can not grasp why your so afraid of this weapon? Maybe you could give me some facts to sway me back to not allowing everyone the chance to use them, but the must be facts. Untill than I will push hard for the allowing of the crossbow during the Michigan Archery Season. Not the Swamp's Archery Season. Plus I see i have the support I need to get this on the move and into the woods soon.

As I have said before, I am not afraid of the crossbow and I whole heartedly agree with you. Everyone that wants to use a crossbow should be able to use one, just not in bowseason. Everyone that needs to use a crossbow to participate in bowseason should get one. If you are able-bodied and want to hunt during bow season, pick up a bow, like the rest of the states bowhunters have done and will continue to do.

[wildcoy73]

swamp; why should i be limited to use a crossBOW during a GUN season? A crossbow is not a gun. it shots the same broadhead that you use. The crossbow kills by bloodloss not shock. The numbers show that we will not see an increase in deer being harvested, or accidents in the feild by allowing the crossBOW to be in the woods on october 1st. So why are people trying to keep them out of the woods? Make no sence to fight a battle that can be seen as a lost. Not one fact shows crossBows during the archery season would hurt the season. The future is with us so grasp it and lets move on

[walleyeman2006]

my opnion is it probably doesnt matter .......with a cross bow your effectivley cutting your effective range down..but your adding the ability to cock the bow.......

150lb draw crossbows are as effective as 60lb compounds up to about 25 yards give or take.......the cross bows ive shot and seen just dont have much penitration after 25 yards......


where the sucess rate might change is if its legal i can turn my compound into a verticaly held cross bow very easily.........it doesnt take much at all ......a release attached to a bracket and then fix it to the bow.......

if they do become legal i wont be buying one until i cant draw my compound any more......unless i see some new design come out that can out perform my compound

and honestly too me it would take a big part of bow hunting away to be able to use one........having to draw on a deer if the best part of the hunt for me.......and lots of taisty critters got to run free while i was learning how to do it lol

[Swamp Ghost]

swamp; why should i be limited to use a crossBOW during a GUN season? A crossbow is not a gun. it shots the same broadhead that you use. The crossbow kills by bloodloss not shock.

It's not a bow either, that's why it deserves it's own season.


The numbers show that we will not see an increase in deer being harvested,

Another reason that there is no need for crossbows


So why are people trying to keep them out of the woods?

They aren't, they are keeping them out of bowseason.


Make no sence to fight a battle that can be seen as a lost. Not one fact shows crossBows during the archery season would hurt the season. The future is with us so grasp it and lets move on

It makes no sense trying to cram a new weapon down the throats of bowhunters and into bowseason. But it doesn't stop folks from trying.

40+ state agencies, countless organizations, loads of statistically valid surveys and most bowhunters do not want crossbows in bowseason.

What you should consider is all the reasons that bowhunters enjoy bowhunting, and what the impact of adding crossbows to an established season might do to negatively impact those reasons, not just the "measurable" "facts".

Why should bowhunters who have spent years and even decades, in most cases, striving to improve their bowhunting skills and experiences have to sacrifice anything for hunters that could not be bothered to pick up a bow and join bowhunters in the woods?

What gives crossbowhunters the right to demand that bowhunters give up any aspect of bowhunting that has made it enjoyable for them?

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

i just knew i would get here to late. SWAMPY I BROUGHT YOU A ***DRIBBLE***CUP:gaga:, but i see you droled all over the floor already:dizzy:. i'll just leave it here on the highchair:gaga: for you WHEN YOU START TO DRIBBLE AGAIN. that would be in about 10 nano seconds:lol::lol:
i,ve been shooting a bow for over 45 years i guess i got a lot to learn from you, could you give me some archery tips. i am sure you have accumulated a vast amount of knowledge from the MBH which you say represents the bow hunters. that is HOGWASH, SINCE WHEN DOES 5000 MEMBERS (thats if there's even that many, which i dought, because they REFUSE to post their membership status) OF MBH REPRESENT THE BOWHUNTERS OF MICHIGAN ? they are A MINORITY WITH OVER 100,000 ARCHERY HUNTERS IN MICHIGAN. do the math its very simple math 100000/5000 = 5%.
once again 5000 members extreme maximum---100,000 ARCHERY HUNTERS MINIMUM IN MICHIGAN. so if mbh numbers are less and michigans total archers are greater you have an even less percentage. also 1 VERY LARGE POINT I HAVEN'T EVEN SPOKE ON, MBH'S TOTAL MEMBERSHIP *****DOESN'T*****STAND BEHIND IT'S ***GESTAPO***LEADERSHIP!
THEY NEVER HAD A VOTE ON THE CROSSBOW ISSUE TO SEE WHERE THE MEMBERSHIP STANDS IN THE PAST 4 OR 5 YEARS---NEVER,NEVER, NEVER. MY DADS BEEN A MEMBER SINCE 1953 I BELIEVE, AS I STATED BEFORE I'LL TAKE SOME PICTURES OF HIS STRIPE'S/BADGES AND SUCH FOR ALL TO SEE. HE ALSO HUNTS WITH A CROSSBOW. HE ALSO HAS NEVER GOT TO VOTE ON THE CROSSBOW ISSUE.

[Hungry Wolf]

Swamp,.. it's pretty funny that you ALWAYS pick New Jersey as your pointing object,.. having a hard time with other subjects? :lol:

As I stated earlier,.. look at OUR poll,... the one right here on the MICHIGAN website which your obviously trying to ignore. :lol::lol::lol:

CrossBOWS are winning,... YOUR losing. Maybe you should move to New Jersey! :cwm27: :gaga:

Your poking fun at him for using the NJ data while you are pushing an INTERNET poll where 129 have voted??? Oh Lord- Now THATS funny! :rolleyes:

[specificgravity]

i just knew i would get here to late. SWAMPY I BROUGHT YOU A ***DRIBBLE***CUP:gaga:, but i see you droled all over the floor already:dizzy:. i'll just leave it here on the highchair:gaga: for you WHEN YOU START TO DRIBBLE AGAIN. that would be in about 10 nano seconds:lol::lol:
i,ve been shooting a bow for over 45 years i guess i got a lot to learn from you, could you give me some archery tips. i am sure you have accumulated a vast amount of knowledge from the MBH which you say represents the bow hunters. that is HOGWASH, SINCE WHEN DOES 5000 MEMBERS (thats if there's even that many, which i dought, because they REFUSE to post their membership status) OF MBH REPRESENT THE BOWHUNTERS OF MICHIGAN ? they are A MINORITY WITH OVER 100,000 ARCHERY HUNTERS IN MICHIGAN. do the math its very simple math 100000/5000 = 5%.
once again 5000 members extreme maximum---100,000 ARCHERY HUNTERS MINIMUM IN MICHIGAN. so if mbh numbers are less and michigans total archers are greater you have an even less percentage. also 1 VERY LARGE POINT I HAVEN'T EVEN SPOKE ON, MBH'S TOTAL MEMBERSHIP *****DOESN'T*****STAND BEHIND IT'S ***GESTAPO***LEADERSHIP!
THEY NEVER HAD A VOTE ON THE CROSSBOW ISSUE TO SEE WHERE THE MEMBERSHIP STANDS IN THE PAST 4 OR 5 YEARS---NEVER,NEVER, NEVER. MY DADS BEEN A MEMBER SINCE 1953 I BELIEVE, AS I STATED BEFORE I'LL TAKE SOME PICTURES OF HIS STRIPE'S/BADGES AND SUCH FOR ALL TO SEE. HE ALSO HUNTS WITH A CROSSBOW. HE ALSO HAS NEVER GOT TO VOTE ON THE CROSSBOW ISSUE.

Well somebody is getting some mileage out of their caps lock key. You might want to get your finger back on it because here comes some more "whining".

As far as the current crossbow regulations go, I believe that they could stand to see some improvement in regards to accessibility for those who are disabled but an outright legalization of crossbows I would not be in favor of. I believe the season was created for bows that are not cocked and locked. If there is evidence that such a legalization would help with some of the deer management problems we face then I would lend a listening ear.

But that's just my "dribble cup" of opinion.

[Munsterlndr]

It's not a bow either, that's why it deserves it's own season.
It is a type of bow by any reasonable definition. Just as wooden long bows and compound vertical bows are types of bows. You guys just look silly when you parrot your "it's not a bow" mantra. You get hung up on physical appearance over function.

Another reason that there is no need for crossbows
There is no need for any specific kind of weapon. Justify the need for the compound that you use. The selection of weapons is a personal choice and there is just as much of a legitimate reason for someone to choose to use a crossbow as there is for you to choose to use a compound.

They aren't, they are keeping them out of bowseason.

No, as a matter of fact they have done just about everything that they can to not only keep them in the firearms season but also to frustrate the ability of those with disabilities from using them in any season other than firearms. It's just a hunch but I'm guessing if crossbow advocates suggested a stand alone season during some period that ran concurrently with archery season that you would find a reason to object.

It makes no sense trying to cram a new weapon down the throats of bowhunters and into bowseason. But it doesn't stop folks from trying.
Nobody will force you to use a crossbow. Unless that was the case it would have little impact on you as a vertical bow hunter. Bow hunting organizations are trying desperately to recruit new vertical bow hunters and are failing miserably. It is hypocritical of you to encourage the recruitment of new vertical bow hunters while at the same time complaining about the potential impact of sharing a season with crossbow hunters. Michigan has lost 70,000 bow hunters in the last decade. Anything that can help to decrease or reduce that trend by retaining older hunters, getting younger hunters and woman into hunting or simply making it more convenient for hunters to stick with the sport instead of dropping from the ranks is a good thing. Only in the minds of a few elitists does the idea of increasing the number of hunters seem to be a bad thing.

What you should consider is all the reasons that bowhunters enjoy bowhunting, and what the impact of adding crossbows to an established season might do to negatively impact those reasons, not just the "measurable" "facts".

Why should bowhunters who have spent years and even decades, in most cases, striving to improve their bowhunting skills and experiences have to sacrifice anything for hunters that could not be bothered to pick up a bow and join bowhunters in the woods?

What gives crossbowhunters the right to demand that bowhunters give up any aspect of bowhunting that has made it enjoyable for them?

Again, nobody is asking bow hunters to give up anything. All that is being asked is that a public resource be shared. In the dozen states that allow crossbows during archery season, vertical bow hunters are doing just fine. They have the same opportunity to practice their sport as they had prior to crossbows. The only difference is that greater numbers of hunters are participating in hunting and making the job of the State game agencies that much easier in managing the deer herd. Face it, in Michigan archery hunters have done a poor job of recruiting new members and make only a minimal contribution to managing the herd. They tend to focus on shooting yearling bucks which has no positive biological impact on the herd.

What gives vertical bow users the right to keep other sportsmen from utilizing a public recreational resource?

Here is an analogy, what if a bunch of jet skiers lobbied the state to prevent fisherman from using public launch ramps under the idea that they would then not have to wait in line to launch their watercraft and there would be less boats on the lake for them to run into. That is basically the argument put forth by vertical bow users, keep crossbows out of archery season so that we don't have to share the woods with them or let them shoot "our" bucks. See how silly that sounds?

Public hunting land and the deer herd are a public resource and there should be equal opportunities for all to utilize them. Restricting weapons from certain dates on the calender only makes sense if there would be a biological consequence. In the case of crossbows during archery season, there is nothing to indicate that this would be the case.

[Munsterlndr]

If there is evidence that such a legalization would help with some of the deer management problems we face then I would lend a listening ear.


Lot's of evidence out there, you just need to read it. Take a gander at an article written by the chief deer biologist for Ohio, Mike Tonkovich entitled "Bow Hunting:An important deer management tool" it's available on the web.

Here is his closing paragraph:

Ohio’s deer resource will continue to provide our citizens with countless recreational
opportunities, for both hunters and nonhunters alike, well into the near future. It will be the
Division of Wildlife’s job to try to balance those opportunities with the human-deer conflict
situations that will accompany them. Without question, bowhunting and most notably crossbow
hunting, will continue to be a most valuable tool for the biologists who work to maintain this
balance.

[wolverines]

To me the "art of hunting" is getting so close to your quarry that you can see its breath, see each one of its whiskers on its chin, and it not having the faintest clue that you're there. You need that to be successful with a crossbow, it's not always a factor with a gun.



Yep, and if you do everything right it will be easier to get a shot off with a crossbow than with a virticle bow too...just like with a gun.

[wolverines]

We could change your crossbow to "compound" and your bow to "recurve" or "long bow" and get the same effect. As much easier as your compound is then the recurve I learned on (and still have), I suppose you also wouldn't have a problem if they decided to not allow bows with cams, use of releases, let offs, sights (esp red dot, laser, or pendulem sights), rests and all the other bells and whistles? Those things just make it far too easy and take away from the challenge of a recurve or longbow....



I wouldn't be jumping for joy...I'd be practicing with my recurve and not debating it on here though.

[Swamp Ghost]

Lot's of evidence out there, you just need to read it. Take a gander at an article written by the chief deer biologist for Ohio, Mike Tonkovich entitled "Bow Hunting:An important deer management tool" it's available on the web.

Here is his closing paragraph:

Ohio’s deer resource will continue to provide our citizens with countless recreational
opportunities, for both hunters and nonhunters alike, well into the near future. It will be the
Division of Wildlife’s job to try to balance those opportunities with the human-deer conflict
situations that will accompany them. Without question, bowhunting and most notably crossbow
hunting, will continue to be a most valuable tool for the biologists who work to maintain this
balance.


Mike Tonkovich ~ Crossbowhunter

OH where crossbowhunters outnumber bowhunters.

OH where crossbows are unrestricted.

OH that has a 7 day long shotgun season after the rut with an OBR.

[Munsterlndr]

Mike Tonkovich ~ Crossbowhunter

OH where crossbowhunters outnumber bowhunters.

OH where crossbows are unrestricted.

OH that has a 7 day long shotgun season after the rut with an OBR.

Yes, Dr. Tonkovich successfully harvested a deer with a crossbow two years ago. Prior to that I believe he used a vertical bow. I would say that would lend even more credence to his views. It would seem to me that somebody that has actually used both weapons in a hunting situation might have a little more credibility in forming an opinion than someone who has never used a crossbow while hunting deer.

But feel free to discount the views of anyone that has any actual experience and keep basing your opinions on the rantings of the uninformed. ;)

[specificgravity]

Lot's of evidence out there, you just need to read it. Take a gander at an article written by the chief deer biologist for Ohio, Mike Tonkovich entitled "Bow Hunting:An important deer management tool" it's available on the web.

Here is his closing paragraph:

Ohio’s deer resource will continue to provide our citizens with countless recreational
opportunities, for both hunters and nonhunters alike, well into the near future. It will be the
Division of Wildlife’s job to try to balance those opportunities with the human-deer conflict
situations that will accompany them. Without question, bowhunting and most notably crossbow
hunting, will continue to be a most valuable tool for the biologists who work to maintain this
balance.


I'll take a look at it the article. Link?

Myself, I'm a numbers guy, when it comes down to management decisions. Harvest survey after harvest survey shows that archery season barley comes in at half of the antlerless harvest that occurs during the regular firearm season. The extended amount of time that hunters are spending in the woods is not being used to harvest antlerless deer. In my mind this makes archery a "bucks of opportunity" season with less actual deer management being accomplished.

Unless it can be shown that throwing crossbows in the mix would increase the number of does being harvested I hold fast to my first opinion that it is a different weapon. If it can be shown that crossbows would increase the number of does being taken by a noticeable increase then I would throw my opinion of crossbows out the window for the greater good of the deer herd.

[Munsterlndr]

Yep, and if you do everything right it will be easier to get a shot off with a crossbow than with a virticle bow too...just like with a gun.

And you know this from personal experience? You have hunted deer with a crossbow before?

Or are you simply making an observation based on no actual experience. Dozens of members of this forum who have actually hunted with both vertical bows and crossbows would disagree with your contention but hey everybody is entitled to an opinion.

[specificgravity]

Yes, Dr. Tonkovich successfully harvested a deer with a crossbow two years ago. Prior to that I believe he used a vertical bow. I would say that would lend even more credence to his views. It would seem to me that somebody that has actually used both weapons in a hunting situation might have a little more credibility in forming an opinion than someone who has never used a crossbow while hunting deer.

But feel free to discount the views of anyone that has any actual experience and keep basing your opinions on the rantings of the uninformed. ;)

Before you write him off completely he does raise a valid point about the hunting climate in Ohio versus Michigan.

[specificgravity]

And you know this from personal experience? You have hunted deer with a crossbow before?

Or are you simply making an observation based on no actual experience. Dozens of members of this forum who have actually hunted with both vertical bows and crossbows would disagree with your contention but hey everybody is entitled to an opinion.

How long can you hold a crossbow at full draw versus a vertical bow? :)

I like this place.

[Ferg]

If you all don't lay off the personal comments and innuendo this thread is history -

ferg....

[Munsterlndr]

How long can you hold a crossbow at full draw versus a vertical bow? :)

I like this place.

Well, since the current P&Y non-typical world record was taken by a compound user who held his bow at full draw for over three minutes waiting to get the shot, I'd say that it does not matter all that much. Of course, since he was using a high let off bow he has one of those nasty asterisks next to his name in the P&Y book. :lol:

How long can you hold a 99% let off compound bow strung at 40 lbs? ;)


Since you like this place, why don't you fill out your user profile and tell us a little bit about yourself. It's always good to know who your discussing things with. ;)

[specificgravity]

If you all don't lay off the personal comments and innuendo this thread is history -

ferg....

I thought the thread was actually going rather swimmingly for a crossbow discussion.

Well, since the current P&Y non-typical world record was taken by a compound user who held his bow at full draw for over three minutes waiting to get the shot, I'd say that it does not matter all that much. Of course, since he was using a high let off bow he has one of those nasty asterisks next to his name in the P&Y book. :lol:

How long can you hold a 99% let off compound bow strung at 40 lbs? ;)


Since you like this place, why don't you fill out your user profile and tell us a little bit about yourself. It's always good to know who your discussing things with. ;)

Ok lets see, forty pounds at 99% reduction would be....carry the one....factor in my pixie stick arms..........three minutes. Is that longer than a crossbow? :)

Fill out my profile? Wha? And give you something to use against me. I think not Mr. Munster. ;)

[Swamp Ghost]

It is a type of bow by any reasonable definition. Just as wooden long bows and compound vertical bows are types of bows. You guys just look silly when you parrot your "it's not a bow" mantra. You get hung up on physical appearance over function.
There is no need for any specific kind of weapon. Justify the need for the compound that you use. The selection of weapons is a personal choice and there is just as much of a legitimate reason for someone to choose to use a crossbow as there is for you to choose to use a compound.

Now it's a type of bow. Interesting

I don't have to justify a need to use a bow in bowseason. The DNR has already done that.

Like I have said before bowseason is about how you hunt.

There is a legitimate reason for crossbow use in MI, the disabled and firearm or a special season.


No, as a matter of fact they have done just about everything that they can to not only keep them in the firearms season but also to frustrate the ability of those with disabilities from using them in any season other than firearms.

They have firearm season now they want bowseason. I wonder why MBH is so wary of any crossbow legislation. The MBH is not the only one making suggestions to the DNR, get real.

It's just a hunch but I'm guessing if crossbow advocates suggested a stand alone season during some period that ran concurrently with archery season that you would find a reason to object.

If crossbowhunters want to participate in their own season, I would gladly oblige them by buyin a crossbow and hunting with them.


Nobody will force you to use a crossbow. Unless that was the case it would have little impact on you as a vertical bow hunter. Bow hunting organizations are trying desperately to recruit new vertical bow hunters and are failing miserably. It is hypocritical of you to encourage the recruitment of new vertical bow hunters while at the same time complaining about the potential impact of sharing a season with crossbow hunters. Michigan has lost 70,000 bow hunters in the last decade. Anything that can help to decrease or reduce that trend by retaining older hunters, getting younger hunters and woman into hunting or simply making it more convenient for hunters to stick with the sport instead of dropping from the ranks is a good thing. Only in the minds of a few elitists does the idea of increasing the number of hunters seem to be a bad thing.

No they are trying to fight their way into bowseason with another weapon. You say it won't have an impact. I say it will, so do alot of bowhunters.

We have already established that crossbows will not recruit or retain new hunters, especially bowhunters.


Again, nobody is asking bow hunters to give up anything. All that is being asked is that a public resource be shared. In the dozen states that allow crossbows during archery season, vertical bow hunters are doing just fine. They have the same opportunity to practice their sport as they had prior to crossbows. The only difference is that greater numbers of hunters are participating in hunting and making the job of the State game agencies that much easier in managing the deer herd. Face it, in Michigan archery hunters have done a poor job of recruiting new members and make only a minimal contribution to managing the herd. They tend to focus on shooting yearling bucks which has no positive biological impact on the herd.

I am willing to share the resource, just not in the same season.

A dozen states? Really....

OH the crossbowhunters dream, bowhunter numbers continue to fall. I see that as hurting bowhunting. Evewn in the states that have unrestricted crossbow use they are losing hunters. Hunter numbers continue to fall everywhere, it's not because of weapons of choice.

Harvest regulations are set by the state, the state allows hunters to make the choice on how they fill their tag. MI hunters are horrible deer managers, it's not because of the hunters. It's because of decades of traditional deer management and liberal buck regulations. Crossbows will help with none of the state's deer problems. Same hunters under the same regulations with a different weapon = the same results.


What gives vertical bow users the right to keep other sportsmen from utilizing a public recreational resource?

They aren't. If they want to use a weapon other than a bow, they should find an appropriate season for their weapon.


Here is an analogy, what if a bunch of jet skiers lobbied the state to prevent fisherman from using public launch ramps under the idea that they would then not have to wait in line to launch their watercraft and there would be less boats on the lake for them to run into. That is basically the argument put forth by vertical bow users, keep crossbows out of archery season so that we don't have to share the woods with them or let them shoot "our" bucks. See how silly that sounds?

Almost as silly as that analogy ....


Public hunting land and the deer herd are a public resource and there should be equal opportunities for all to utilize them. Restricting weapons from certain dates on the calender only makes sense if there would be a biological consequence. In the case of crossbows during archery season, there is nothing to indicate that this would be the case.

Like I have said before bowhunting is about how, not how many.

I agree if you want to hunt with a crossbow you should be able to. You currently can in many of MI's deer seasons. If you want to hunt in bow season, pick up a bow. I mean with all these wizz-bang gadgets it's eezy-peezy, nothings stopping you. But if you are intent on using a crossbow get your own season.

Biological consequence? You are kidding, right? If it were only that easy we would not be having this conversation.

[Swamp Ghost]

Well, since the current P&Y non-typical world record was taken by a compound user who held his bow at full draw for over three minutes waiting to get the shot, I'd say that it does not matter all that much. Of course, since he was using a high let off bow he has one of those nasty asterisks next to his name in the P&Y book. :lol:

How long can you hold a 99% let off compound bow strung at 40 lbs? ;)


Since you like this place, why don't you fill out your user profile and tell us a little bit about yourself. It's always good to know who your discussing things with. ;)

Because every bowhunter uses a 99% let-off 40# compound. Rediculous.

[MERGANZER]

Did the new pope and young archer look at his watch to time how long he held the bow back for??????:lol: My bow is 65% let off and 70lb, I can assure you I can hold a rested crossbow much longer than I can that bow!

This is an opinion issue plain and simple! Ohio is nothing like Michigan, thats why I hate the Buckeyes:lol: We have many more hunters than most deer hunting states have currently and my opinion on this is to leave the seasons as they are unless you are disabled (which the rules for disability need to be revised). You can still use it during gun season.

Ganzer

[wolverines]

And you know this from personal experience? You have hunted deer with a crossbow before?

Or are you simply making an observation based on no actual experience. Dozens of members of this forum who have actually hunted with both vertical bows and crossbows would disagree with your contention but hey everybody is entitled to an opinion.


Have you killed a deer with a bow from a treestand with a verticle bow? Firearm?

I have hunted with a bow and a gun from a treestand. I have never hunted with a crossbow but have shot them a lot. Almost all of my shots with a bow are under 20 yrds. under 75 with my muzzleloader. Based on the knowledge I have from my experiences I am very confident it would be very similar to hunting with a firearm and not so much with a verticle bow.

I also have a very good friend that has hunted with a crossbow that would agree...

[Munsterlndr]

Because every bowhunter uses a 99% let-off 40# compound. Rediculous.
No, the point is they can legally if they want to. Only ridiculous if you are uncomfortable with the minute differences between a bow that is currently legal in Michigan and crossbows. If you could easily hold a compound at full draw for say 5 minutes, would you not agree that the contention that you have to draw a vertical bow in the presence of a deer kind of fades into non-relevance? Yeah, I can see how those who are hanging their entire argument on that point might think it's ridiculous. :lol:

[Munsterlndr]

Have you killed a deer with a bow from a treestand with a verticle bow? Firearm?

I have hunted with a bow and a gun from a treestand. I have never hunted with a crossbow but have shot them a lot. Almost all of my shots with a bow are under 20 yrds. under 75 with my muzzleloader. Based on the knowledge I have from my experiences I am very confident it would be very similar to hunting with a firearm and not so much with a verticle bow.

I also have a very good friend that has hunted with a crossbow that would agree...

Yes I have harvested deer with both vertical bows and firearms from treestands. I've also missed and spooked deer with both weapons from a tree stand. In my opinion, the weapon really does not make much difference. Sometimes the stars align and you get a shot at a deer and sometimes you don't. Again, the weapon is not the determining factor.

What is much more of a determining factor, in my opinion, is whether your target is a solo deer or whether there are other deer present. When the deer you are targeting is all alone, I have never found it to be that big a deal to time the instances when it's behind a tree, etc. and fully draw on the deer without it ever knowing what is going on. When it's in a group of 5 or 6 other deer, it's a whole 'nother ball game. Even in a fully enclosed pop-up blind, if you have a bunch of deer with 20 or 30 yards, the odds are that one of them is going to scent you or sense even the smallest motion. When hunting at close range, whether you are using a vertical bow or a crossbow or a rifle or a pistol or a muzzleloader is not going to make much difference. Scent control and then motion control are the keys and all weapons require some degree of movement when aiming at a deer.

[Riva]

..
The population control hammer in MI is the gun, it's users and their season.

Well now, with all that out of the way, it appears that everything else we've been discussing is subjective, that is; how the expansion of crossbows affect one's own personal experience.

To date, Not one comment so far has been articulated how crossbows can/will affect one's own, personal, hunting experience. NOT ONE! Why is that?

Better yet, why should you care? If a person is hunting in a tree say 200 yards from you and using a crossbow, how does that violate your ethos, your "cherished traditions", your level of proficiency, your personal experience? Again, why should you care?

By your own words and irrefutably true; the principal weapon to control whitetail deer population is a firearm. That being the case, it all boils down to the fact that you believe your manner of hunting should prevail over those that simply choose to use a different weapon, whereas in fact, it has no demonstrable impact or affect on your own personal experience.

I'm sorry, but if somebody else uses a crossbows does not affect and/or impact your personal experience, your advocacy to deny the other person the right of free choice is an untenable position.

[wolverines]

What is much more of a determining factor, in my opinion, is whether your target is a solo deer or whether there are other deer present. When the deer you are targeting is all alone, I have never found it to be that big a deal to time the instances when it's behind a tree, etc. and fully draw on the deer without it ever knowing what is going on. When it's in a group of 5 or 6 other deer, it's a whole 'nother ball game. Even in a fully enclosed pop-up blind, if you have a bunch of deer with 20 or 30 yards, the odds are that one of them is going to scent you or sense even the smallest motion. When hunting at close range, whether you are using a vertical bow or a crossbow or a rifle or a pistol or a muzzleloader is not going to make much difference. Scent control and then motion control are the keys and all weapons require some degree of movement when aiming at a deer.


I'll buy that...

I'm just saying that when that group of 5-6 deer come into view you just shoulder your crossbow or firearm, look through the scope and wait for your shot.

You said you bow-hunt...you know no one in their right mind is going to draw on these animals and wait 5 mins. for a shot. You've got ot pick out a spot to draw, then pick a spot to shoot. I think that when people draw early and hold as long as they can 'cause they have 80% let-off are not helping their cause. This is when fatigue will set in, nervouseness increases, poor decisions are made, and bad shots are taken. I believe that those factors are removed while hunting with a crossbow or firearm.

I just think everyone should have the choice to use a crossbow during firearm season if they want too, people with disabilities during all seasons.

[Hungry Wolf]

Again, the weapon is not the determining factor.

Ahhhh- Now we come down to where many of us stand-

I'm not sure if I agree with this statement or not because I do agree with you about wind, scent control, and many other bowhunting 101 type issues. Crossbow or no crossbow without a general understanding of woodsmanship you are not going to put meat in the freezer.

HOWEVER- I believe it a big enough factor to make a distinction between crossbows and vertical bows and their full inclusion in archery season. Simple as that...

[Munsterlndr]

Ahhhh- Now we come down to where many of us stand-

I'm not sure if I agree with this statement or not because I do agree with you about wind, scent control, and many other bowhunting 101 type issues. Crossbow or no crossbow without a general understanding of woodsmanship you are not going to put meat in the freezer.

HOWEVER- I believe it a big enough factor to make a distinction between crossbows and vertical bows and their full inclusion in archery season. Simple as that...

For the umpteenth time, if it is such a big factor, why is there no discrepancy between vertical and crossbow success rates while there is one between long bow/ re-curves vs. compounds or vertical bows compared to firearms? Still waiting for a reasonable answer to that question.

[Hungry Wolf]

For the umpteenth time, if it is such a big factor, why is there no discrepancy between vertical and crossbow success rates while there is one between long bow/ re-curves vs. compounds or vertical bows compared to firearms? Still waiting for a reasonable answer to that question.

In my opinion- The seasons are long enough that those who can --> do... Crossbow or no crossbow. What I would like to see is data detailing the number of hours/hunts/attempts/days afield each group had to put in to estabilish their respective 'success rates'... You can guess what I think the answer would be.

[Swamp Ghost]

No, the point is they can legally if they want to. Only ridiculous if you are uncomfortable with the minute differences between a bow that is currently legal in Michigan and crossbows. If you could easily hold a compound at full draw for say 5 minutes, would you not agree that the contention that you have to draw a vertical bow in the presence of a deer kind of fades into non-relevance? Yeah, I can see how those who are hanging their entire argument on that point might think it's ridiculous. :lol:

Bows are legal and if someone wants to use a 99% leftoff (IF there is such a thing), go right ahead, it's still a bow. The entire process of shooting and hunting with a bow cannot be compared to hunting with a crossbow, they are entirely different.

If someone could hold a compound bow for 5,10,15 minutes is just that an if. All a crossbow hunter has to do is crank back his 150#, 100% let-off crossbow, find a nice rest and hold for infinity.

Drawing in front of game non-relevant? Come on

[specificgravity]

Well now, with all that out of the way, it appears that everything else we've been discussing is subjective, that is; how the expansion of crossbows affect one's own personal experience.

To date, Not one comment so far has been articulated how crossbows can/will affect one's own, personal, hunting experience. NOT ONE! Why is that?

Better yet, why should you care? If a person is hunting in a tree say 200 yards from you and using a crossbow, how does that violate your ethos, your "cherished traditions", your level of proficiency, your personal experience? Again, why should you care?

By your own words and irrefutably true; the principal weapon to control whitetail deer population is a firearm. That being the case, it all boils down to the fact that you believe your manner of hunting should prevail over those that simply choose to use a different weapon, whereas in fact, it has no demonstrable impact or affect on your own personal experience.

I'm sorry, but if somebody else uses a crossbows does not affect and/or impact your personal experience, your advocacy to deny the other person the right of free choice is an untenable position.

So if I am following you correctly you support the right to legalize hunting methods that do not affect other people?

Oh and this not the "slippery slope" argument either.

[Swamp Ghost]

Well now, with all that out of the way, it appears that everything else we've been discussing is subjective, that is; how the expansion of crossbows affect one's own personal experience.

To date, Not one comment so far has been articulated how crossbows can/will affect one's own, personal, hunting experience. NOT ONE! Why is that?

Better yet, why should you care? If a person is hunting in a tree say 200 yards from you and using a crossbow, how does that violate your ethos, your "cherished traditions", your level of proficiency, your personal experience? Again, why should you care?

By your own words and irrefutably true; the principal weapon to control whitetail deer population is a firearm. That being the case, it all boils down to the fact that you believe your manner of hunting should prevail over those that simply choose to use a different weapon, whereas in fact, it has no demonstrable impact or affect on your own personal experience.

I'm sorry, but if somebody else uses a crossbows does not affect and/or impact your personal experience, your advocacy to deny the other person the right of free choice is an untenable position.

I believe bowseason is for bowhunters. Crossbow hunters owe it to themselves to get a season of their own.

Why do I have to articulate why crossbows will effect my experience? I say it will. So do most bowhunters throughout the country.

Crossbow hunters have a choice, hunt with a bow during MI's bowseason, hunt with their crossbow in firearm season or get their own season.

Untenable position? I say that lies at the feet of able-bodied hunters that make the choice not to participate in bowseason because they refuse to use a bow.

[Swamp Ghost]

For the umpteenth time, if it is such a big factor, why is there no discrepancy between vertical and crossbow success rates while there is one between long bow/ re-curves vs. compounds or vertical bows compared to firearms? Still waiting for a reasonable answer to that question.


It's a big factor. Precisely why most states see crossbows as a "reasonable accommodation"/advantage for the disabled/aged in order to participate as equals in bowseason with bowhunters.

[MERGANZER]

For the umpteenth time, if it is such a big factor, why is there no discrepancy between vertical and crossbow success rates while there is one between long bow/ re-curves vs. compounds or vertical bows compared to firearms? Still waiting for a reasonable answer to that question.


Maybe the compound hunters are just better hunters and the crossbows advantage evens the numbers out.

Ganzer

[awshucks]

Since the strawman argument du jour appears to be holding a bow on target, I thougfht I'd cut and paste a few posts by one of the more respected archers /coaches of the day. His name is Jim C from Oh.

Well kids let me interject some empirical data into this debate

1) when I owned a range I conducted a test. I mounted a laser on an excalibur hunting crossbow and on a hoyt 65 pound tech hunting compound. Top archers-including a 7 time ohio Xbow champion (me) a FITA World Indoor Silver Medalist, and a bunch of 59X average archers were used along with some good but not great JOAD archers. THe goal was from a standing position-see how long you could hold the laser in the center (5 ring) of an NFAA target at 20 yards. Guess what-it was far easier to keep the compound in the center.

Next empirical test-Video camera mounted on the head of a McKenzie large buck pointed at a camo'd hunter in a tree stand 25 yards away and about 15 feet up. the hunter was sitting in both cases. compound in a holder in front of him-crossbow on his lap. I had people who had all sorts of hunting experience-or no experience judge what was easier to spot.aiming the xbow or drawing the compound. In both cases the movement was obvious

So much for the huge xbow advantage.

A little more:

The problem is the anti xbow types pretend that xbow advantages mean that an xbow is ADVANTAGED compared to compounds which is a complete lie. ever wonder why the world xbow champion-who has practiced daily for 30 years cannot beat the 50 top compound archers at Vegas or NFAA? compounds have as many advantages which makes the two weapons basically equivalent in the woods.

what I tire of is the dishonesty of the anti xbow crowd-they try to justify their bigotry by trying to claim that xbows are UNFAIR to them which is BS and we all know it.

[specificgravity]

Since the strawman argument du jour appears to be holding a bow on target, I thougfht I'd cut and paste a few posts by one of the more respected archers /coaches of the day. His name is Jim C from Oh.

Well kids let me interject some empirical data into this debate

1) when I owned a range I conducted a test. I mounted a laser on an excalibur hunting crossbow and on a hoyt 65 pound tech hunting compound. Top archers-including a 7 time ohio Xbow champion (me) a FITA World Indoor Silver Medalist, and a bunch of 59X average archers were used along with some good but not great JOAD archers. THe goal was from a standing position-see how long you could hold the laser in the center (5 ring) of an NFAA target at 20 yards. Guess what-it was far easier to keep the compound in the center.

Next empirical test-Video camera mounted on the head of a McKenzie large buck pointed at a camo'd hunter in a tree stand 25 yards away and about 15 feet up. the hunter was sitting in both cases. compound in a holder in front of him-crossbow on his lap. I had people who had all sorts of hunting experience-or no experience judge what was easier to spot.aiming the xbow or drawing the compound. In both cases the movement was obvious

So much for the huge xbow advantage.

While those are interesting comparisons I do have to point out if you are going to argue that there is no difference between the two in regards to movement then you will have to take into account drawing the bow. A compound is locked and loaded so a shooter could bring up a compound or a crossbow on the animal but the similarity stops there as the compound shooter still needs to draw. That necessary step is a big divide in my mind, maybe not to others.

what I tire of is the dishonesty of the anti xbow crowd-they try to justify their bigotry by trying to claim that xbows are UNFAIR to them which is BS and we all know it.

It is posts like this that take the disagreement too far. When I see people arguing for the unrestricted access of crossbows into archery season they will routinely use words like selfish, uninformed, un-sportsman like, or even bigot. Instead of arguing their point of view they instead revert to attacking one's character for a differing opinion. I don't know about you but if I was trying to convince someone that their opinion wasn't correct I wouldn't end by insulting them.

[Riva]

I believe bowseason is for bowhunters. Crossbow hunters owe it to themselves to get a season of their own.

Why do I have to articulate why crossbows will effect my experience? I say it will. So do most bowhunters throughout the country.

Crossbow hunters have a choice, hunt with a bow during MI's bowseason, hunt with their crossbow in firearm season or get their own season.

Untenable position? I say that lies at the feet of able-bodied hunters that make the choice not to participate in bowseason because they refuse to use a bow.

Swamp, your reply, "I say it will" is simply not good enough. If you are going to advocate the suppression of sportspersons from making a free choice then I am afraid that you have to articulate precisely how somebody else using a crossbow affects your personal experience. Right now, you are affecting us, not the otherway around. Sorry, you cant take the fifth on this issue, Swamp. Tell us how exactly how somebody else using a crossbow affects your personal experience? Again, a reply of, "I say it will" must be backed up with something other than vapor.

Anticipating your answers, I simply follow with a singular interrogatory....

- "Because you shoulder it like a rifle"...How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because it has a trigger"...How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because you don't have to draw and hold on deer"... How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because you call your projectiles a different name"...How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because one takes a different course to becoming proficient"...How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because they have a different propulsion mechanism" ...How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because crossbow hunters are lazy"...How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because crossbow hunters don't uphold my cherished traditions"...How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because it's not a bow"....How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because they are not bowhunters"...How does this affect your personal experience?

You know, Swamp, there is an enormous groundswell of people advocating crossbow expansion for youth; as a tool for introduction, for persons of age; as a tool for retention, as tool to allow more disabled people participate as an equal and finally, for unrestricted use. Ultimately the anti crossbow advocacy is going to have to answer these questions otherwise you'll be simply seen a clamorous minority selfishly trying keep an public activity solely and selfishly to themselves.

Swamp, its high time that you stop talking about "they" and start talking about "you". Unless and until you guys articulate how crossbow expansion affects your own personal experience, the anti crossbow agenda is nothing more than a house of cards. That's not an opinion. It's a fact!

Swamp, the ball is in your court and, we're all waiting.

Riva

[Swamp Ghost]

Swamp, your reply" I say it will" is simply not good enough. If you are going to advocate the suppression of sportspersons from making a free choice then I am afraid that you have to articulate precisely how somebody else using a crossbow affects your personal experience. Right now, you are affecting us, not the otherway around. Sorry, you cant take the fifth on this issue, Swamp. Tell us how exactly how somebody else using a crossbow affects your personal experience? Again, A reply of , "I say it will" must be backed up with something other than vapor.

Anticipating your answers, I simply reply with a singular interrogatory....

- "Because you shoulder it like a rifle"...How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because it has a trigger"...How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because you don't have to draw and hold on deer"... How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because you call your projectiles a different name"...How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because one takes a different course to becoming proficient"...How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because they have a different propulsion mechanism" ...How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because crossbow hunters are lazy"...How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because crossbow hunters don't uphold my cherished traditions"...How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because it's not a bow"....How does this affect your personal experience?

- "Because they are not bowhunters"...How does this affect your personal experience?

You know, Swamp, there is an enormous groundswell of people advocating crossbow expansion for youth; as a tool for introduction, for persons of age; as a tool for retention, as tool to allow more disabled people participate as an equal and finally, for unrestricted use. Ultimately the anti crossbow advocacy is going to have to answer these questions otherwise you'll be simply seen a clamorous minority selfishly trying keep an public activity solely and selfishly to themselves.

Swamp, its high time that you stop talking about "they" and start talking about "you". Unless and until you guys articulate how crossbow expansion affects your own personal experience, the anti crossbow agenda is nothing more than a house of cards. That's not an opinion. It's a fact!

Swamp, the ball is in your court and, we're all waiting.

Riva

OK Riva, how is the crossbow going to positively affect my bowhunting? (Insert articulate answer here.)

I am not advocating against free choice. Able-bodied hunters choose not to participate in bowseason because they refuse to use a bow. It's their choice. MI hunters that want to hunt in bowseason use a bow, they have for a very long time.

Because hunters don't want to use a bow in bowseason we are supposed to give an alternative weapon? Absolutely absurd....

If a crossbowhunter wants to use his weapon get a season for it. Get a seperate season and I'll become a crossbowhunter in crossbow season.

I wonder how I ever got started bowhunting? I never felt slighted for not being able to "start" hunting with a crossbow. I wanted to hunt in bowseason. So I cut lawns all summer in order to buy my first recurve off my neighbor. Nothing would deter me from participating in bowseason, nothing could stop me from hunting. I had a choice, hunt with legal weapons or sit at home, I chose to hunt.

Speaking of waiting, have you contacted the MBH or any other bowhunting groups about my proposal to eliminate the physical therapist requirement from the crossbow permit process?

[Ferg]

While those are interesting comparisons I do have to point out if you are going to argue that there is no difference between the two in regards to movement then you will have to take into account drawing the bow. A compound is locked and loaded so a shooter could bring up a compound or a crossbow on the animal but the similarity stops there as the compound shooter still needs to draw. That necessary step is a big divide in my mind, maybe not to others.



It is posts like this that take the disagreement too far. When I see people arguing for the unrestricted access of crossbows into archery season they will routinely use words like selfish, uninformed, un-sportsman like, or even bigot. Instead of arguing their point of view they instead revert to attacking one's character for a differing opinion. I don't know about you but if I was trying to convince someone that their opinion wasn't correct I wouldn't end by insulting them.


SG, I couldn't agree more - last warning on the personal name calling - by name or group - just is no need for it -

ferg....

[Riva]

OK Riva, how is the crossbow going to positively affect my bowhunting? (Insert articulate answer here.)

I am not advocating against free choice. Able-bodied hunters choose not to participate in bowseason because they refuse to use a bow. It's their choice. MI hunters that want to hunt in bowseason use a bow, they have for a very long time.

Because hunters don't want to use a bow in bowseason we are supposed to give an alternative weapon? Absolutely absurd....

If a crossbowhunter wants to use his weapon get a season for it.

I wonder how I ever got started bowhunting? I never felt slighted for not being able to "start" hunting with a crossbow. I wanted to hunt in bowseason. So I cut lawns all summer in order to buy my first recurve off my neighbor. Nothing would deter me from participating in bowseason.

Speaking of waiting, have you contacted the MBH or any other bowhunting groups about my proposal to eliminate the physical therapist requirement from the crossbow permit process?

You still did not answer this one question; How will any of the above affect your personal experience? You always talk about "they" and "them". You have to talk about "you". Again, simply answer the question, how will somebody else using a crossbow affect your personal experience?

And, as for me contacting the MBH surrounding the criteria that will permit a disabled person use a crossbow, they have a published policy statement on these matters which they state that they not only support the current 80% permanent disability criteria, they advocate the injection of an even higher level of scrutiny throughout the entire process by the DNR Law Division.

Has there been a change in their public position?

[specificgravity]

You still did not answer this one question; How will any of the above affect your personal experience? You always talk about "they" and "them". You have to talk about "you". Again, simply answer the question, how will somebody else using a crossbow affect your personal experience?

And, as for me contacting the MBH surrounding the criteria that will permit a disabled person use a crossbow, they have a published policy statement on these matters which they state that they not only support the current 80% permanent disability criteria, they advocate the injection of an even higher level of scrutiny throughout the entire process by the DNR Law Division.

Has there been a change in their public position?

Hey, wait a second, you didn't answer my question. It's along the lines as your argument. I'll quote myself since I like to see myself talk. :)

So if I am following you correctly you support the right to legalize hunting methods that do not affect other people?

Oh and this not the "slippery slope" argument either.

[Swamp Ghost]

You still did not answer this one question; How will any of the above affect your personal experience? You always talk about "they" and "them". You have to talk about "you". Again, simply answer the question, how will somebody else using a crossbow affect your personal experience?

And, as for me contacting the MBH surrounding the criteria that will permit a disabled person use a crossbow, they have a published policy statement on these matters which they state that they not only support the current 80% permanent disability criteria, they advocate the injection of an even higher level of scrutiny throughout the entire process by the DNR Law Division.

Has there been a change in their public position?

I say it will. I am the legal hunter using a legal weapon in an established season. It's up to the crossbow pushers to prove it won't. Prove to every one of MI's bowhunter's that the crossbow won't negatively affect not one of the reason's that led them to pick up a bow and hunt during bowseason.

Folks keep saying how EASY it is to use a compound, then advocate circumventing even that. Crossbows do not have a right to be in bow seasons. Potential crossbowhunters could already be hunting, if they would do what I did, learn to shoot a bow.

The thought of an able-bodied hunter using a crossbow in a bowseason fought for by bowhunters would absolutely effect my experiences and feelings towards this state's bowseason.

Your turn Riva, Please tell me how the crossbow will positively affect/enchance my bowseason.

You are unwilling to contact/negotiate/work with the MBH to advance the cause of disabled hunters because of a policy statement? I am willing to bet they would be very receptive to such legislation. I guess we'll never know......

[Riva]

Hey, wait a second, you didn't answer my question. It's along the lines as your argument. I'll quote myself since I like to see myself talk.

So if I am following you correctly you support the right to legalize hunting methods that do not affect other people?

Oh and this not the "slippery slope" argument either.:)




As some of you know, I am not an advocate for unrestricted use of crossbows during the archery season. My principal advocacy to date has been focused upon expansion of the rights of disabled persons. Thus, I am not "supporting" anything but merely formulating an opinion by asking some hard question which, to date, you have all avoided answering. I am suggesting that free choice is a good thing. That stated, my question remains...if a person uses a crossbow by virtue of free choice, how can that affect YOUR personal experience?

And, about the "slippery slope" argument..I would suggest you seek senior counsel before pursuing that subject. You will get murdered on that one.

Just some free advice between gentlemen:)

[Munsterlndr]

Potential crossbowhunters could already be hunting, if they would do what I did, learn to shoot a bow.

Please tell me how the crossbow will positively affect/enchance my bowseason.


What makes you think that they are not already bow hunting? Some of the converts to crossbows in other states were already bow hunters, why would it be any different in Michigan? The deer they kill with a crossbow is the same deer they would have killed anyway with a vertical bow.


How could it positively impact your bow season? In a myriad of ways.

Increased hunter recruitment and hunter retention. That translates into more dollars for the DNR to provide you with better enforcement and more services as a sportsman. With archery hunter numbers falling by 70,000 hunters during the last decade in Michigan, any positive steps that can stop or reverse that trend should be encouraged. BTW, archery hunter numbers, both vertical and crossbow have shown the opposite trend in Ohio during the same time period, both showing an increase. Kind of puts to bed your notion that crossbows would A) not help recruit new hunters and B) hurt the recruitment of vertical bow users.

Increased antlerless harvest in the SLP, especially in urban deer zones where the over-population problem is most problematic. Ohio has found that the crossbow is an increasingly effective tool for dealing with problem deer populations. Face it, you have admitted yourself that SLP archers are not currently getting the job done in harvesting greater numbers of antlerless deer. Crossbows offer a partial solution to this problem and one that does not include the increasing encroachment of special firearms seasons into the archery calender, to try and provide partial solutions.

An increased hunting demographic that can help influence the legislature and contribute towards protecting our hunting rights in the face of increasing pressure from anti-hunting groups. Bow hunters actively trying to keep other hunters from participating in the sport is akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face. There is safety in numbers and again anything that can be done to reverse the declining numbers of deer hunters is worth trying.

It could provide you with the opportunity to extend your participation in hunting deer if you get to an age where the normal wear and tear of life tends to encourage many hunters to hang up the bow. If you have never faced a physical issue that has caused you to miss the opportunity to hunt, you probably don't have any perspective on that potential. I have twice experienced physical problems that have precluded me from participating in hunting seasons and let me tell you, it sucked. Not allowing sportsmen who want to participate but can't because their physical situation may not be a permanent one is just plain stupid. Whether it is an injury, malady or just plain old age, we should be doing everything that we can to provide the opportunities for sportsmen to continue to utilize a public resource and participate in the sport of hunting.

These are just a few of the ways you could potentially benefit but I get the feeling that I'm talking to a brick wall and that you would fail to acknowledge the legitimacy of any of these arguments even if you actually believed them to be true. ;)

[Whit1]

It is posts like this that take the disagreement too far. When I see people arguing for the unrestricted access of crossbows into archery season they will routinely use words like selfish, uninformed, un-sportsman like, or even bigot. Instead of arguing their point of view they instead revert to attacking one's character for a differing opinion. I don't know about you but if I was trying to convince someone that their opinion wasn't correct I wouldn't end by insulting them.


It works both ways in these discussions. The anti-crossbow stalwarts use such words as "lazy", "too easy", "man-up", "force down our throats", "cry babies". All in all it comes out an even wash.

As long as the discussion remains civil the thread remains open. As Ferg has mentioned, the juvenile name calling by BOTH sides only detracts from the topic at hand.

[Riva]

I say it will. I am the legal hunter using a legal weapon in an established season. It's up to the crossbow pushers to prove it won't. Prove to every one of MI's bowhunter's that the crossbow won't negatively affect not one of the reason's that led them to pick up a bow and hunt during bowseason.

Folks keep saying how EASY it is to use a compound, then advocate circumventing even that. Crossbows do not have a right to be in bow seasons. Potential crossbowhunters could already be hunting, if they would do what I did, learn to shoot a bow.

The thought of an able-bodied hunter using a crossbow in a bowseason fought for by bowhunters would absolutely effect my experiences and feelings towards this state's bowseason.

Your turn Riva, Please tell me how the crossbow will positively affect/enchance my bowseason.

You are unwilling to contact/negotiate/work with the MBH to advance the cause of disabled hunters because of a policy statement? I am willing to bet they would be very receptive to such legislation. I guess we'll never know......

I believe that you have answered your own question and do not need my input. However; if I read you correctly, your disdain for a crossbow and the path a person took to become proficient with a crossbow, is so profound that you allow it to wreck your day. Golly, I guess you can say that it affects you. At the end of the day, I don't think that your unhappiness is enough of reason not to give people free choice in these matters. You're just one guy and a lot of people want the right to choose.

Unless you guys can come up with some scientific reason that will illustrate a profound negative impact on the resource, it's all noise; like in the Bible: "a gonging symbol, a tingling brass". :rolleyes:

As for the MBH, there are better messages and, there are better messengers. ;)

[awshucks]

SpecGrav:

The QUOTE after "A little more" were his words not mine. Sorry for any confusion, here's a link to the whole thread where they were said:
http://www.newjerseyhunter.com/article40664-2.htm

Much more combative and hostlie atmosphere on that forum than on here.

[skipper34]

I would really like to see this thread continue. I am sure that there are many more points of view to be heard from other members. Let's do as Whit suggests and try to keep this discussion civil and we can all learn from it. So far I have heard enough input on the subject to keep riding the fence.

[Munsterlndr]

That NJ thread was mildly interesting. One of the posts made reference to a rest that compound users can use to stabilize their bow arm and increase the amount of time they can hold a bow fully drawn. I had heard about these before but had never really taken a look at them before.

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc112/Munsterlndr/steadyready.jpg

I thought the product description was worth including;
It supports your bow arm so you can hold steady at full draw for extended periods. The Adjustable Tension Arm props into your stomach area to give you rock-solid aiming support, and flips out of the way when not in use. This system also improves accuracy by allowing you to fully relax your bow arm.

Hmmm..... couple one of these with a 99% let off bow and all of those arguments that Swamp Ghost and others put forth over the difficulty of drawing a bow to get a shot at a deer seem to become even less relevant than they were to begin with. :lol:

Because they are currently legal to use in Michigan, I assume Swamp, that you would have no objection to sharing "your" season with another hunter who was using this rest and a 99% let off bow? ;)

[skipper34]

Pretty neat gadget. And to think that an "able-bodied " person could use this to increase accuracy. How novel!

[Swamp Ghost]

What makes you think that they are not already bow hunting? Some of the converts to crossbows in other states were already bow hunters, why would it be any different in Michigan? The deer they kill with a crossbow is the same deer they would have killed anyway with a vertical bow.

Some hunters? Why a bowhunter feels the need to use a crossbow in bowseason is beyond me, if they want to do it they can travel to OH. Deer die the same way, regardless of weapon.


How could it positively impact your bow season? In a myriad of ways.

Increased hunter recruitment and hunter retention.

Absolutely untrue, proven numerous times.


That translates into more dollars for the DNR to provide you with better enforcement and more services as a sportsman.

Combo tag dominates license revenue. No increase in revenue will be seen with the addition of a new weapon for the same hunters.


With archery hunter numbers falling by 70,000 hunters during the last decade in Michigan, any positive steps that can stop or reverse that trend should be encouraged.

Hunter numbers are falling everywhere in every season.


BTW, archery hunter numbers, both vertical and crossbow have shown the opposite trend in Ohio during the same time period, both showing an increase. Kind of puts to bed your notion that crossbows would A) not help recruit new hunters and B) hurt the recruitment of vertical bow users.

Again with OH. OH had 1/8 of the hunters and deer MI had when the crossbow entered OH's bowseason. It's hunter and deer numbers had no where to go but up.

I highly doubt MI firearm hunters would be willing to shorten their season to 7 days, hunt after the rut, hunt with shotguns statewide and go to an OBR just so crossbowhunters can hunt in bowseason.



Increased antlerless harvest in the SLP, especially in urban deer zones where the over-population problem is most problematic. Ohio has found that the crossbow is an increasingly effective tool for dealing with problem deer populations. Face it, you have admitted yourself that SLP archers are not currently getting the job done in harvesting greater numbers of antlerless deer. Crossbows offer a partial solution to this problem and one that does not include the increasing encroachment of special firearms seasons into the archery calender, to try and provide partial solutions.

The deer population problem is a regulatory one. If the DNR was serious about population control they could get it done (OBR, EAB, AR, etc). Another weapon with the same deer management regulations solves absolutely nothing concerning deer herd populations. The same places that OH uses crossbows and bows to control Urban deer populations can be accomplished with bow only hunts. I would have no problem with allowing crossbows in special seasons like Urban deer hunts, Metro-park deer control hunts, etc.

The DNR took a baby step in the antlerless deer harvest problem by allowing an ANY weapon antlerless deer season, pre-bowseason.



An increased hunting demographic that can help influence the legislature and contribute towards protecting our hunting rights in the face of increasing pressure from anti-hunting groups. Bow hunters actively trying to keep other hunters from participating in the sport is akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face. There is safety in numbers and again anything that can be done to reverse the declining numbers of deer hunters is worth trying.


Even though we have established that crossbows do not recruit new hunters or even retain hunters. It's very easy to accomplish everything you are talking about, just establish a crossbow season.


It could provide you with the opportunity to extend your participation in hunting deer if you get to an age where the normal wear and tear of life tends to encourage many hunters to hang up the bow. If you have never faced a physical issue that has caused you to miss the opportunity to hunt, you probably don't have any perspective on that potential. I have twice experienced physical problems that have precluded me from participating in hunting seasons and let me tell you, it sucked. Not allowing sportsmen who want to participate but can't because their physical situation may not be a permanent one is just plain stupid. Whether it is an injury, malady or just plain old age, we should be doing everything that we can to provide the opportunities for sportsmen to continue to utilize a public resource and participate in the sport of hunting.

I have missed a few bowseasons due to hand injuries, so I know it sucks. I never had the desire to pick a crossbow. Now if the time comes and I am unable to draw a bow I will apply for a crossbow permit. If I am denied, I will find a way to legally hunt during bowseason.

Like I have said before all those opportunities to participate can be accomplished by establishing a crossbow season or learning to shoot a bow.

[Swamp Ghost]

I believe that you have answered your own question and do not need my input. However; if I read you correctly, your disdain for a crossbow and the path a person took to become proficient with a crossbow, is so profound that you allow it to wreck your day. Golly, I guess you can say that it affects you. At the end of the day, I don't think that your unhappiness is enough of reason not to give people free choice in these matters. You're just one guy and a lot of people want the right to choose.

Unless you guys can come up with some scientific reason that will illustrate a profound negative impact on the resource, it's all noise; like in the Bible: "a gonging symbol, a tingling brass". :rolleyes:

As for the MBH, there are better messages and, there are better messengers. ;)

So my reason is not legitimate? I feel it is absolutely legitimate. It's also fair for crossbow guys to prove to every one of MI's bowhunter's that the crossbow won't negatively affect any of the reason's that led them to pick up a bow and hunt during bowseason.

My disdain is for able-bodied hunters that refuse to participate in bowseason because they do not want to use a bow and want bowhunters to accommodate their desires.

Please tell me how the crossbow will positively affect/enchance my bowseason.

Still waiting for my answer.....

[Swamp Ghost]

That NJ thread was mildly interesting. One of the posts made reference to a rest that compound users can use to stabilize their bow arm and increase the amount of time they can hold a bow fully drawn. I had heard about these before but had never really taken a look at them before.

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc112/Munsterlndr/steadyready.jpg

I thought the product description was worth including;
It supports your bow arm so you can hold steady at full draw for extended periods. The Adjustable Tension Arm props into your stomach area to give you rock-solid aiming support, and flips out of the way when not in use. This system also improves accuracy by allowing you to fully relax your bow arm.

Hmmm..... couple one of these with a 99% let off bow and all of those arguments that Swamp Ghost and others put forth over the difficulty of drawing a bow to get a shot at a deer seem to become even less relevant than they were to begin with. :lol:

Because they are currently legal to use in Michigan, I assume Swamp, that you would have no objection to sharing "your" season with another hunter who was using this rest and a 99% let off bow? ;)

Where's the safety? Oh it doesn't have one.

Does it assist with his draw?

Is that compound bow? Looks like it.

Where can I order one? I'd like to try it out. LOL!

Looks like a disaster waiting to happen :yikes:

[7MM Magnum]

Swamp either your ................... or you just refuse to accept the facts that have been presented in so many numerous occasions. Case in point,.. the response Whit 1 received,...

Your just in total denial,.. or your experiencing poor memory retention. In any event I'll repost Whit1's letter here so you might refresh your memory.:rolleyes:


by: Whit1
Here's is an email response from Georgia when I asked how crossbow inclusion impacted the numbers of archery hunters in the state when that regulation went into effect. Once again the impact was negligable as it seems that many of the users of crossbows were already hunting with vertical bows.

Dear Mr. Whitmore,

Thank you for contacting us with your questions.

In 2002, the Georgia General Assembly introduced and passed HB 1174 (http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2001_02/fulltext/hb1174.htm (http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2001_02/fulltext/hb1174.htm)), which allowed the use of crossbows for hunting any game species without the need for a special permit and without any restrictions. Prior to this statutory change, crossbows could only be used by persons with a permanent disability under special permit by the Department to hunt big game (deer, bear, & turkey). At that time, according to data maintained by our License Unit, approximately 3,000 persons held a permit to use a crossbow.

The 2002-2003 hunting season was the first season in which any person could use a crossbow to hunt any game species. According to our annual Harvest of Wildlife survey, we estimated that 17,322 hunters hunted with a crossbow that first season. If one were to subtract the 3,000 who were issued crossbow permits prior to the statutory change then we estimate about 14,322 new crossbow hunters. In consulting with the four (4) largest manufacturers of crossbows on the number of crossbow units sold prior to that first season, we had estimated a minimum of 14,073 crossbow hunters thereby lending significant credibility to our post-season estimate of 14,322.

We also attempted to estimate the minimum economic impact based solely on retail sales of crossbows. Assuming an average price of $479, we estimated the minimum retail sales at $6,740,967, thereby generating approximately $471,867 in state sales tax revenue. This does not include peripherals such as scopes, bolts, etc.

We followed the number of hunters using crossbows for the next couple of seasons. In the 2003-2004 season, based on our annual Harvest of Wildlife survey, we estimated approximately 23,919 hunters hunted deer with a crossbow. In 2004-2005, the estimate was 22,738. In 2005-2006, the estimate was 21,454.

We do not have the data necessary to determine exactly how many of these individuals were new to archery hunting versus how many were previously hunting with archery equipment and simply added crossbows to their archery equipment. However, looking at general estimates of archery hunter numbers prior to the statutory change (approx. 96,721) versus after the change (approx. 97,392), we only saw a minuscule increase in the number of archery hunters. Thus, it seems logical to conclude that most hunters using crossbows were probably existing archery hunters who opted to add the crossbow to their archery repertoire and experience this new opportunity.

In our experience, we have experienced no deleterious sociological or biological affects from this statutory change that legalized the use of crossbows. From a statutory and regulatory viewpoint, we consider the crossbow a legal weapon for hunting any game species and classify it as archery equipment.

I hope this information answers your inquiry.

Sincerely,

John

John W. Bowers
Wildlife Program Assistant State Supervisor
Georgia Wildlife Resources Division
Game Management Section
2070 US Hwy. 278 SE
Social Circle, GA 30025
(770) 918-6404
(706) 557-3060 (fax)
john.bowers@dnr.state.ga.us (john.bowers@dnr.state.ga.us)
__________________



Nuff said ! :16suspect:16suspect:16suspect

[Swamp Ghost]

Mr. Whitmore,
Crossbows were legalized for use in the Alabama archery only season 3 seasons ago. Our mail survey indicates that the number of archery hunters increased during the first year after they were legalized. Discussions with archery pro shop owners indicate that crossbow sales were very good during the first year. Since then, archery hunter numbers have declined below the pre-crossbow days. Pro shop owners have stated to me that crossbow sales have declined significantly since the first year.

I believe many individuals purchased them because they wanted to try the “latest and greatest” thing to harvest a deer. After buying and trying them, many individuals found them to be noisy, heavy, and easier than a compound bow to shoot. I think many Alabama hunters chose to go back to hunting with a compound (even though it is more difficult to draw and shoot) because they are quieter and easier to handle in a tree.

I believe that many individuals that purchased crossbows did so because they thought they were going to shoot deer out to distances like rifle hunters. After buying them, hunters found that crossbows are no more effective than a compound bow at distances beyond 40-50 yards.

Our mail survey does not indicate that crossbows positively impacted the number of licenses sold or deer harvested. The crossbow makes up as much as 50% of the harvest in some states where it is legal for use during the archery only season. We have not experienced that here in Alabama.
Ray Metzler
Hunter Education Coordinator
Alabama Division of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries



Have crossbows shown to be an effective recruitment and or retention tool to sustain hunter numbers? Not that I can tell.
I have not talked to any crossbow hunters who started bowhunting because crossbows were made legal.
Have crossbows been a useful tool in management of the deer herd population? Again, not that I can tell.
Chris Cook
Wildlife Biologist/Deer Studies Project Leader
Alabama Division of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries


I call that honesty...

[Swamp Ghost]

We followed the number of hunters using crossbows for the next couple of seasons. In the 2003-2004 season, based on our annual Harvest of Wildlife survey, we estimated approximately 23,919 hunters hunted deer with a crossbow. In 2004-2005, the estimate was 22,738. In 2005-2006, the estimate was 21,454.


Declining hunter numbers? Say it ain't so.

I see alot of estimates, assumptions, "logical conclusions", and "not having the data necessary to determine" used in that letter.

Looks like Georgia has absolutely no idea what crossbows have or haven't done.

The only thing worse than biased biologists making assumptions about crossbows is even more biased crossbow advocates trying to validate them.

MI could reap even more fiscal rewards by establishing a seperate crossbow season.

[7MM Magnum]

Well Duhhhhhh,... naturally the crossBOW sales would decrease after the first year. What,.. you gonna' buy one EVERY YEAR! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just ANOTHER case in point,.. you never seem to address the FACTS that are put to you refuting your comments,.. you just put up something else instead. :16suspect

You've ignored everything in the RED print,... so typical, :rolleyes: once anyone puts PROOF from some OFFICIAL capacity at your doorway you choose to ignore it if it doesn't side with your thoughts.

The letter that you have posted seems to be somewhat dated,.. as it states that "3 seasons ago" and according to the letter Whit1 just received stated that the crossBOW initiative was started in 2002, making the one you posted quoting Whit1's post sometime in 2005.

That makes it 3 years old,... lots can change in 3 years. ;):D:lol:

[sputty]

Was there this much rhetoric when the compound bow was introduced? Swamp G. Why do you state that Michigan is doomed to fail? Whats the worst that can happen with legalization of crossbows for the entire archery season? Maybe some new hunters may take-up the sport, maybe some youths and females would be better served if they hunted w/ crossbows. I sure do not believe the herd will be affected much.Do you feel threatened that someone is hunting with a comparable weapon that is not YOUR choice. No one here is trying to force you to hunt with a weapon that is proven to be no more affective than a compond bow. I have a story (you may not be interested but here goes) A kid moved in next door to me (in Ohio) his father hunted but did not have much time to take him out. I began to take him hunting. The kid shot his first wild pheasants w/ myself and my dog, also his first ducks and geese, and doves. When he wanted to hunt archery deer hunt, I let him hunt with my old crossbow and he instantly liked archery hunting. The next year he said he would like to hunt deer w/ a compound and I encouraged him. I did not try to inhibit him by my weapon of choice. I encouraged him and we practiced side by side. I could go on but I think we all need to stand side-by side and give the antis the middle finger solute. We need to put our differences aside and decide what is best for the future (oppurtunity). I fear that maybe not in our life-time but our childrens or grand-childerns hunting will come to an end if we are not unified-or willing to have an open mind.

[Munsterlndr]

Absolutely untrue, proven numerous times.
No, it is absolutely true that crossbows can both increase hunter recruitment and hunter retention.The fact that you keep repeating your denials does not make it a fact. In both Wisconsin and Maryland archery license sales to over-65 year old hunters rose dramatically after crossbows for seniors were allowed in archery season. In both states this increase in senior archery hunters was attributed to the introduction of crossbows into archery season. I'll bet you a substantial amount of money that Illinois will see a similar rise in senior archery license sales since they legalized crossbows for senior this year. Those are hunting license sales that would have been lost because the majority of those hunters would have hung up their bow and called it quits. Here is an example from an Illinois senior who was excited about taking advantage of the new law change.

“There was one buck that I should have had last year, but I didn’t get him because of my (declining) strength and health,” said Kloster, who suffers from arthritis. “I would still love to hunt with that compound bow if I could. I just can’t do it.”

Kloster said the crossbow law will extend his hunting career. “I should be able to hunt another 10 years, if my health doesn’t get any worse than it is.”

Crossbows certainly allow seniors and also younger hunters who may have chronic back or shoulder problems to continue hunt and they also provide an opportunity for youths and woman who cannot physically draw a vertical bow, to get into hunting. This is so obvious that it's not even debatable.

[Swamp Ghost]

No, it is absolutely true that crossbows can both increase hunter recruitment and hunter retention.The fact that you keep repeating your denials does not make it a fact. In both Wisconsin and Maryland archery license sales to over-65 year old hunters rose dramatically after crossbows for seniors were allowed in archery season. In both states this increase in senior archery hunters was attributed to the introduction of crossbows into archery season. I'll bet you a substantial amount of money that Illinois will see a similar rise in senior archery license sales since they legalized crossbows for senior this year. Those are hunting license sales that would have been lost because the majority of those hunters would have hung up their bow and called it quits. Here is an example from an Illinois senior who was excited about taking advantage of the new law change.

“There was one buck that I should have had last year, but I didn’t get him because of my (declining) strength and health,” said Kloster, who suffers from arthritis. “I would still love to hunt with that compound bow if I could. I just can’t do it.”

Kloster said the crossbow law will extend his hunting career. “I should be able to hunt another 10 years, if my health doesn’t get any worse than it is.”

Crossbows certainly allow seniors and also younger hunters who may have chronic back or shoulder problems to continue hunt and they also provide an opportunity for youths and woman who cannot physically draw a vertical bow, to get into hunting. This is so obvious that it's not even debatable.

Completely separate issue.

opportunity for youths and woman who cannot physically draw a vertical bow, to get into hunting.

I have no problem with the physically challenged/disabled using a crossbow. I can be convinced that the aged, women and youth can be considered physically challenged, and therefor entitled to the use of a crossbow in bowseason. Or all the crossbowhunters could get their own season and we wouldn't have to determine who should use one.

[Riva]

Completely separate issue.
I have no problem with the physically challenged/disabled using a crossbow. I can be convinced that the aged, women and youth can be considered physically challenged, and therefor entitled to the use of a crossbow in bowseason. Or all the crossbowhunters could get their own season and we wouldn't have to determine who should use one.

OK, you asked for it.... Time to play.... "Let's Create a Season!"

Currently, you guys have 44 days, October 1 through November 14. We all want everyone to be equal right? That's what America is all about, right? So, let's make sure that everybody has the same amount of days, OK? We both get the same amount of days. Fair enough? Here we go....

I'll take September 1 through September 30. (30 days)

Then, you guys get October 1 through October 31. (31 days)

Next, to be perfectly fair, we get November 1 through November 14 (total of 44 days)

Then, you guys get November 15th through November 30th (total of 44 days)

Then, in December, we get December 1st through December 15th.

Next, you guys get December 16th through December 31st.

Fair enough?:D

[Swamp Ghost]

OK, you asked for it.... Time to play.... "Let's Create a Season!"

Currently, you guys have 44 days, October 1 through November 14. We all want everyone to be equal right? That's what America is all about, right? So, let's make sure that everybody has the same amount of days, OK? We both get the same amount of days. Fair enough? Here we go....

I'll take September 1 through September 30. (30 days)

Then, you guys get October 1 through October 31. (31 days)

Next, to be perfectly fair, we get November 1 through November 14 (total of 44 days)

Then, you guys get November 15th through November 30th (total of 44 days)

Then, in December, we get December 1st through December 15th.

Next, you guys get December 16th through December 31st.

Fair enough?:D

Crossbowhunters should determine with the DNR when their season should be. I could care less when it is, but I'll tell ya one thing, I'll choose to use a crossbow in a crossbow season whenever it is.

[Riva]

Crossbowhunters should determine with the DNR when their season should be. I could care less when it is, but I'll tell ya one thing, I'll choose to use a crossbow in a crossbow season whenever it is.

Why is that?

And, since you could "care less" when crossbow season is,(per above), I'll amend my season recommendations, as per my previous post.

My recommendation is now................I sincerely hope that you stop worrying about the "other guy" and start enjoying Michigan's great and glorious seasons, no matter what the other guy is using to harvest a deer. Can you do that? I certainly hope so.

[Munsterlndr]

Completely separate issue.


No it's not. You have repeatedly made the claim that crossbows do not contribute to hunter recruitment or hunter retention. I gave you a textbook example of how crossbow use for seniors can play a key role in hunter retention. Recruiting woman and youth is also an important need for hunting today and crossbows can help with that. If you want to justify it by calling them "disabled" feel free but I would not go there if I were you. While overall hunter numbers nationally have fallen in recent years, woman are one of the few demographics where the number of hunters has increased. Crossbows have played a role in this trend. Stop weaseling and admit that your previous statement that crossbows do not play a role in hunter recruitment and retention is simply wrong.

[specificgravity]

[/i]
As some of you know, I am not an advocate for unrestricted use of crossbows during the archery season. My principal advocacy to date has been focused upon expansion of the rights of disabled persons. Thus, I am not "supporting" anything but merely formulating an opinion by asking some hard question which, to date, you have all avoided answering. I am suggesting that free choice is a good thing. That stated, my question remains...if a person uses a crossbow by virtue of free choice, how can that affect YOUR personal experience?

And, about the "slippery slope" argument..I would suggest you seek senior counsel before pursuing that subject. You will get murdered on that one.

Just some free advice between gentlemen:)

Now I am thoroughly confused. I don't think anybody on here opposed to crossbow proliferation wouldn't be in favor of expanding the disability requirements, heck I know I'm not. Why do you not support unrestricted use of crossbows during archery season?

The questions you asked are loaded and you know it. There are many forms of hunting that don't affect other people when practiced and yet they are either not allowed or they have their own season. This is why I brought up my question again.

Thanks for the heads up but I believe you mis-read my post. I pointed out that it wasn't about to turn into the slippery slope argument. And I don't believe it did.

This thread shakes and bakes and I helped. :)

[specificgravity]

OK, you asked for it.... Time to play.... "Let's Create a Season!"

Currently, you guys have 44 days, October 1 through November 14. We all want everyone to be equal right? That's what America is all about, right? So, let's make sure that everybody has the same amount of days, OK? We both get the same amount of days. Fair enough? Here we go....

I'll take September 1 through September 30. (30 days)

Then, you guys get October 1 through October 31. (31 days)

Next, to be perfectly fair, we get November 1 through November 14 (total of 44 days)

Then, you guys get November 15th through November 30th (total of 44 days)

Then, in December, we get December 1st through December 15th.

Next, you guys get December 16th through December 31st.

Fair enough?:D

I do like the idea of a separate season but you guys have to take November 15-30 since your weapon looks like a gun.















I kid, I kid, just trying to lighten it up a smidgin. ;)

[Hungry Wolf]

I kid, I kid, just trying to lighten it up a smidgin. ;)

Careful there SG- I haven't seen tensions this high since the fall of 1962! ;)

Oh wait- I wasn't around in 62' !

[Whit1]

Careful there SG- I haven't seen tensions this high since the fall of 1962! ;)

Oh wait- I wasn't around in 62' !


I was! In June of '62 I graduated from high school in G.R. and in the fall started at G.R. Junior College. I was amazed at the new and different female companionship that was available and the drooling commenced. Crossbows were not even a flicker in my mind at the time............:lol:

[Hungry Wolf]

I was! In June of '62 I graduated from high school in G.R. and in the fall started at G.R. Junior College. I was amazed at the new and different female companionship that was available and the drooling commenced. Crossbows were not even a flicker in my mind at the time............:lol:

(must... bite tounge... do... not tell... old fart joke...) ;)

[specificgravity]

(must... bite tounge... do... not tell... old fart joke...) ;)

......or.....hippie............

;)

[Riva]

Now I am thoroughly confused. I don't think anybody on here opposed to crossbow proliferation wouldn't be in favor of expanding the disability requirements, heck I know I'm not. Why do you not support unrestricted use of crossbows during archery season?

The questions you asked are loaded and you know it. There are many forms of hunting that don't affect other people when practiced and yet they are either not allowed or they have their own season. This is why I brought up my question again.

Thanks for the heads up but I believe you mis-read my post. I pointed out that it wasn't about to turn into the slippery slope argument. And I don't believe it did.

This thread shakes and bakes and I helped. :)

To clarify...This is just simply an Internet chat room. Lot's of opinions and hyperbole (myself included) but little in the way of affecting the balance of things. That stated, let me tell you there are those that play a major role in affecting the balance of things within the DNR and the NRC that are definitely opposed to any expansion of the criteria that is established for a person with a disability to use a crossbow. Here it is, word for word:

The Michigan Bow Hunters Association Position Statement regarding proposed crossbow regulation changes and laser sight usage

The Michigan Bow Hunters Association does not support using age as a condition for determining crossbow eligibility. Eligibility should be determined by need on a case by case basis. MBH supports the current standard for determining crossbow permit eligibility for physically challenged hunters. However we are opposed to lowering the level of permanent disability from 80% to 60%. Our Association acknowledges that the current evaluation process for crossbow permit applicants is expensive and frequently abused.
We therefore support removal of the physician from the evaluation process as a means of addressing both issues. Also, we would be very supportive of a more vigorous scrutiny of crossbow permit applications by the DNR Law division to further address the abuse issue. In addition, there are other issues with the crossbow permit system not mentioned in the proposal. We look forward to working with the NRC to resolve these concerns.

Now, why on earth would anybody in good conscience be opposed to providing greater opportunity to disabled person in today's more enlightened society? The reason is obvious. To this organization, any dialog that could lead to expansion could also lead to the ultimate catastrophe in their minds, specifically: unrestricted use. It's the old "slippery slope" theory; if we stop it here, we stop it there. Shamefully, disabled people appear to be the expendable pawns in promoting their agenda. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, it's actually a pretty clever strategy if it weren't so egregiously immoral. Just remember, this is the group speaking for you to uphold your "cherished traditions". You guys might want to drop them a little note and tell them your thoughts on these matters. Regrettably, I think your words will fall on deaf ears.

To your other point..I never said I do not support unrestricted use. I have said my focus to date has been expanding the rights of the disabled. That is a well know fact by virtually every member on this site. I have an opinion on unrestricted use and for the moment, it shall remain private. After all, all this is is a casual Internet chat room, right?:lol:

And, if my questions are loaded, as you say, all you have to do is respond with a loaded answer. So far, all I've heard is silence.:rolleyes:

Finally, to follow up with you very clever technique to quote old commercial product ad slogans, I'll submit: "There's always room for crossbows":D

[Swamp Ghost]

No it's not. You have repeatedly made the claim that crossbows do not contribute to hunter recruitment or hunter retention. I gave you a textbook example of how crossbow use for seniors can play a key role in hunter retention. Recruiting woman and youth is also an important need for hunting today and crossbows can help with that. If you want to justify it by calling them "disabled" feel free but I would not go there if I were you. While overall hunter numbers nationally have fallen in recent years, woman are one of the few demographics where the number of hunters has increased. Crossbows have played a role in this trend. Stop weaseling and admit that your previous statement that crossbows do not play a role in hunter recruitment and retention is simply wrong.

Weasling? :lol:

You brought up regulations from states that accommodate the physically challenged to participate in bowseason with a crossbow.

It got more people that needed the crossbow to participate in bowseason participating.

Our mail survey indicates that the number of archery hunters increased during the first year after they were legalized.

Since then, archery hunter numbers have declined below the pre-crossbow days.

Our mail survey does not indicate that crossbows positively impacted the number of licenses sold.

Ray Metzler
Hunter Education Coordinator
Alabama Division of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries

Have crossbows shown to be an effective recruitment and or retention tool to sustain hunter numbers? Not that I can tell.
Chris Cook
Wildlife Biologist/Deer Studies Project Leader
Alabama Division of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries

[Munsterlndr]

Weasling? :lol:

You brought up regulations from states that accommodate the physically challenged to participate in bowseason with a crossbow.

It got more people that needed the crossbow to participate in bowseason participating.


No I brought up regulations that allow seniors the unrestricted use of crossbows. 49 states accommodate the physically challenged with crossbows to varying degrees but that is a separate topic. The topic was hunter retention and the data from Wisconsin and Maryland indicates that crossbows increase hunter retention. You seem to want to continue to deny this fact.

Why did crossbows not have an impact in Alabama? Well, it might be because Alabama has the most liberal harvest limits in the nation (one buck a day) and has a relatively short archery season (that occurs 2 months prior to the rut) and a firearms season that is more than 2 months long. Might it be that most Alabama hunters do not see any real benefit in expanding their opportunities to hunt deer?

[specificgravity]

To clarify...This is just simply an Internet chat room. Lot's of opinions and hyperbole (myself included) but little in the way of affecting the balance of things. That stated, let me tell you there are those that play a major role in affecting the balance of things within the DNR and the NRC that are definitely opposed to any expansion of the criteria that is established for a person with a disability to use a crossbow. Here it is, word for word:

<snip MBH>


Yes, I'm well aware of their position. For whatever it is worth those that I have spoken with both digitally and in person I have yet to encounter anyone who is against lessening the disability requirements. When we start talking unrestricted it changes to a whole different ballgame.

To your other point..I never said I do not support unrestricted use. I have said my focus to date has been expanding the rights of the disabled. That is a well know fact by virtually every member on this site. I have an opinion on unrestricted use and for the moment, it shall remain private. After all, all this is is a casual Internet chat room, right?:lol:


Alright it is getting a little clearer but maybe you could see where my confusion lies when I read this. I took it too mean that you did not support them but that is apparently not the case.

As some of you know, I am not an advocate for unrestricted use of crossbows during the archery season.As far as the far reaching knowledge of your opinion goes, I'm new here and my post count is still teenie boppin' so try not to hold my limited M-S social knowledge against me.

It is casual but from my limited experience here I've found that you guys can get all worked up faster than a parked prom date. :lol:
And, if my questions are loaded, as you say, all you have to do is respond with a loaded answer. So far, all I've heard is silence.:rolleyes:

Nah, loaded questions are exactly that. In a broad response to your questions I will say again that there are forms of hunting that are either not allowed or are regulated separately that when practiced do not affect other people (or wildlife management) but yet the regulations are still in the books because of differing personal opinion. With that being said, if the majority of hunters believe they should be legal during bow season then so be it.

Finally, to follow up with you very clever technique to quote old commercial product ad slogans, I'll submit: "There's always room for crossbows":D


Ok, that's pretty catchy. It might make a pretty good bumper sticker for the Pro-Crossbow camp. :)

[Whit1]

Weasling? :lol:

You brought up regulations from states that accommodate the physically challenged to participate in bowseason with a crossbow.

It got more people that needed the crossbow to participate in bowseason participating.


Ray Metzler
Hunter Education Coordinator
Alabama Division of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries
Chris Cook
Wildlife Biologist/Deer Studies Project Leader
Alabama Division of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries

Swamp, the problem with your use of the above rests with the fact that that letter from Ray Metzler was in response to my question concerning the effect crossbows have had on deer hunting in Alabama.

There was a follow-up that states:

"Alabama hunting seasons are very long and provide ample opportunity for hunters to spend quality time in the woods. States with shorter seasons may experience a more pronounced increase in archery hunters with legalization of crossbows because hunters may not have ample opportunities to spend time in the woods. The affect crossbows have on the number of archers in the woods is dependent on the ability of hunters to enjoy our hunting heritage during other hunting seasons. States with short gun seasons may experience a significant jump in the number of archers after legalizing crossbows because gun hunters may be able to justify purchasing a crossbow and enjoying it during the archery season (ie, spend more time in the woods) without having to spend a great deal of time practicing with it. States with more liberal seasons may not experience a significant jump in archers because the gun hunters may not be able to justify purchasing a crossbow if they believe they get to spend enough time in the woods during the gun/muzzleloader seasons."

Munster hit the nail on the head and his speculation about the reasons why Alabama is not seeing a retainable increase in hunter numbers is correct. The Alabama experience, as stated by Ray seems to support the myth of crossbows being a more effective weapon as his comments about firearms hunters says.

[Riva]

No I brought up regulations that allow seniors the unrestricted use of crossbows. 49 states accommodate the physically challenged with crossbows to varying degrees but that is a separate topic. The topic was hunter retention and the data from Wisconsin and Maryland indicates that crossbows increase hunter retention. You seem to want to continue to deny this fact.

Why did crossbows not have an impact in Alabama? Well, it might be because Alabama has the most liberal harvest limits in the nation (one buck a day) and has a relatively short archery season (that occurs 2 months prior to the rut) and a firearms season that is more than 2 months long. Might it be that most Alabama hunters do not see any real benefit in expanding their opportunities to hunt deer?

I can personally attest to the hunting patterns in Alabama, having hunted there on numerous occasions as a guest of a dear friend. Yes, there is an any sex, one-deer-per-day limit on a four-month long season, gun and bow. The firearm season extends all the way through January 31.

To be frank, hunting there was not my cup of tea as most of the guys in the camp simply strolled along gravel roads and if/when a deer crossed by, they shot it. Hardly a quality experience IMHO. However, to your point, since guns, the season length and, bag limits are so prolific there, crossbows and even regular bows are largely ignored.

To add insult to injury, on my last visit there I was coerced into drinking a sample of some homemade moonshine ("shinny" as they call it.) If any of you were around in the 1960's I now know what LSD does to you. And, only having a taken a sip, I woke up the next morning with the most god-awful hangover of my entire life that lasted for 2 full days! I wont be back.:dizzy:

[Whit1]

It is casual but from my limited experience here I've found that you guys can get all worked up faster than a parked prom date. :lol:


I'm not sure who the "you" is that you are referring to, but I've found that whenever finger pointing goes on those doing the pointing never see the three other digits that are pointed in their direction........:lol: Yes, some members of both sides of this issue get into it just as "baiting no baiting", "bear hound and bear baiting hunters", "bait fishing and flies only anglers", and I've barely touched on deer harvest/management issues that really get the blood up.

The mods here in MS are active and do the job to the best of their ability. We are tasked with the goal of keeping the discussions civil and that's what we try to do. Some agree with what we do others don't, but that's human nature. Disagreements and discussion is fine as long as things don't get personally insulting or outlandish labels are spread over a whole group of sportsmen and women.

As for getting worked up these crossbow threads are fairly mild in their tone with a couple of exceptions as is the norm. Being a newer member of MS (and welcome by the way) you have no knowledge of the past history on this topic.

There have been guys on other sites who have visited here and go back "home" to report how calm and civil the discussions in here are compared to what they've experienced elsewhere.

[Swamp Ghost]

Swamp, the problem with your use of the above rests with the fact that that letter from Ray Metzler was in response to my question concerning the effect crossbows have had on deer hunting in Alabama.

There was a follow-up that states:

"Alabama hunting seasons are very long and provide ample opportunity for hunters to spend quality time in the woods. States with shorter seasons may experience a more pronounced increase in archery hunters with legalization of crossbows because hunters may not have ample opportunities to spend time in the woods. The affect crossbows have on the number of archers in the woods is dependent on the ability of hunters to enjoy our hunting heritage during other hunting seasons. States with short gun seasons may experience a significant jump in the number of archers after legalizing crossbows because gun hunters may be able to justify purchasing a crossbow and enjoying it during the archery season (ie, spend more time in the woods) without having to spend a great deal of time practicing with it. States with more liberal seasons may not experience a significant jump in archers because the gun hunters may not be able to justify purchasing a crossbow if they believe they get to spend enough time in the woods during the gun/muzzleloader seasons."

Munster hit the nail on the head and his speculation about the reasons why Alabama is not seeing a retainable increase in hunter numbers is correct. The Alabama experience, as stated by Ray seems to support the myth of crossbows being a more effective weapon as his comments about firearms hunters says.

Man it's really getting deep in here.....:lol:

MI deer seasons are as liberal, if not more liberal than most unrestricted crossbow states.

Thanks for the tidbit....

[Swamp Ghost]

Why is that?

And, since you could "care less" when crossbow season is,(per above), I'll amend my season recommendations, as per my previous post.

My recommendation is now................I sincerely hope that you stop worrying about the "other guy" and start enjoying Michigan's great and glorious seasons, no matter what the other guy is using to harvest a deer. Can you do that? I certainly hope so.

I am not worried about the other guy, I am worried about crossbows in bowseason.

Different weapon, different season. Simple concept.

[Swamp Ghost]

Ray seems to support the myth of crossbows being a more effective weapon as his comments about firearms hunters says.

VA actually has a crossbow license, so they can track crossbow use.


Virginia 2005 archery/crossbow deer season
Resident Crossbow - 14,522
Non-Resident Crossbow -525
15,077 total crossbowers

36% success ratio


Resident Archery - 51,714
Non-Resident Archery - 2,489
54,203 total archers

32% success ratio

New crossbow licenses sold = new crossbow hunters, not new hunters.

[swoosh]

Man it's really getting deep in here.....:lol:

MI deer seasons are as liberal, if not more liberal than most unrestricted crossbow states.

Thanks for the tidbit....

What are bow season:lol:

Are bow season is really only six weeks long. Oct 1st through Nov 15th, Dec is a Joke, I did manage to kill a few in December this year, LOL.

MI has the shortest bow season, don't make a longer or add a crossbow season. A precious gun hunter may not get a deer:lol:

God forbid we move the Tradition of the gun season, I say make Nov 15th-21 Crossbow season, I bet we sell a lot of them;)

KY
OH
IN
ILL
ALL have waaaaaay longer archery seasons, and shorter gun season, execpt KY

[specificgravity]

I'm not sure who the "you" is that you are referring to, but I've found that whenever finger pointing goes on those doing the pointing never see the three other digits that are pointed in their direction........:lol: Yes, some members of both sides of this issue get into it just as "baiting no baiting", "bear hound and bear baiting hunters", "bait fishing and flies only anglers", and I've barely touched on deer harvest/management issues that really get the blood up.

The mods here in MS are active and do the job to the best of their ability. We are tasked with the goal of keeping the discussions civil and that's what we try to do. Some agree with what we do others don't, but that's human nature. Disagreements and discussion is fine as long as things don't get personally insulting or outlandish labels are spread over a whole group of sportsmen and women.

As for getting worked up these crossbow threads are fairly mild in their tone with a couple of exceptions as is the norm. Being a newer member of MS (and welcome by the way) you have no knowledge of the past history on this topic.

There have been guys on other sites who have visited here and go back "home" to report how calm and civil the discussions in here are compared to what they've experienced elsewhere.

Meh, I think I've been pretty calm and collected and somewhat witty.

Yeah I wasn't too clear when I said "you guys". What I meant was the entire site, all of you! ;)

[Riva]

I am not worried about the other guy, I am worried about crossbows in bowseason.

Different weapon, different season. Simple concept.

If you're worried about crossbows in a bow season, please expand on how this affects you. Kindly detail the practical implications of having a crossbow in bow season. So far, all you have said is that it is not a bow. Swamp, you simply have to do better than this silly mantra of different weapon / different season. You have to back it up with something more than a hindi-like chant.

And while were at it, I would respect your opinions surrounding unrestricted use of crossbows a little more if I saw something coming from your camp about the MBH's nefarious position regarding the criteria for disabled people using a crossbow. I am on public record with the State of Michigan expressing my feelings on their horrible and immoral position. My question..why aren't you?

Forget about unrestricted crossbow use for the moment. Why aren't you guys as shocked and dismayed as I am? For that matter, why isn't everybody? By your own admission, you're all for disabled person rights as it comes to crossbows yet, you, (that is a collective "you") remain mysteriously silent on this issue. I'm puzzled by that.

There's no hypocrisy in the MBH position; they simply hate crossbows and will do everything they can to suppress their expansion in any arena. The hypocrisy that exists comes from others not standing up to them and telling them they are wrong on this particular issue, irrespective of your personal feelings toward crossbow expansion, pro or con.

The bottom line is, if YOU, as an anti unrestricted crossbow use advocate, don't openly and overtly demonstrate your opposition to their immoral policy, as I already have, then, by your inaction, you are in fact, endorsing their agenda. Think about it.

Riva

[Swamp Ghost]

What are bow season:lol:

Are bow season is really only six weeks long. Oct 1st through Nov 15th, Dec is a Joke, I did manage to kill a few in December this year, LOL.

MI has the shortest bow season, don't make a longer or add a crossbow season. A precious gun hunter may not get a deer:lol:

God forbid we move the Tradition of the gun season, I say make Nov 15th-21 Crossbow season, I bet we sell a lot of them;)

KY
OH
IN
ILL
ALL have waaaaaay longer archery seasons, and shorter gun season, execpt KY

MI deer seasons, Bow, Firearm, MZ combined. MI Deer season is very liberal.

Talk about revenue, a Nov. 15th-21 crossbow season! WOW!

[Swamp Ghost]

If you're worried about crossbows in a bow season, please expand on how this affects you. Kindly detail the practical implications of having a crossbow in bow season. So far, all you have said is that it is not a bow. Swamp, you simply have to do better than this silly mantra of different weapon / different season. You have to back it up with something more than a hindi-like chant.

And while were at it, I would respect your opinions surrounding unrestricted use of crossbows a little more if I saw something coming from your camp about the MBH's nefarious position regarding the criteria for disabled people using a crossbow. I am on public record with the State of Michigan expressing my feelings on their horrible and immoral position. My question..why aren't you?

Forget about unrestricted crossbow use for the moment. Why aren't you guys as shocked and dismayed as I am? For that matter, why isn't everybody? By your own admission, you're all for disabled person rights as it comes to crossbows yet, you, (that is a collective "you") remain mysteriously silent on this issue. I'm puzzled by that.

There's no hypocrisy in the MBH position; they simply hate crossbows and will do everything they can to suppress their expansion in any arena. The hypocrisy that exists comes from others not standing up to them and telling them they are wrong on this particular issue, irrespective of your personal feelings toward crossbow expansion, pro or con.

The bottom line is, if YOU, as an anti unrestricted crossbow use advocate, don't openly and overtly demonstrate your opposition to their immoral policy, as I already have, then, by your inaction, you are in fact, endorsing their agenda. Think about it.

Riva

Like I have asked before. How is the crossbow going to positively affect my bowhunting?

Unrestricted crossbow advocates must prove to every one of MI's bowhunter's that the crossbow won't negatively affect one of the countless reason's that led them to pick up a bow and hunt during bowseason.

Crossbowhunters want in bowseason, not the other way around.

Just because I don't agree with the MBH's stance on the crossbow permit process, does not mean that I do not understand why they have to take such a hard line.

You call the MBH nefarious, that's your opinion. The MBH is of the opinion that they are protecting bowhunting and bowhunters and offer alternatives to crossbow use.

Crossbow advocates aren't interested in alternatives or compromise, they want bowseason no matter who or what is affected.

[skipper34]

MI deer seasons, Bow, Firearm, MZ combined. MI Deer season is very liberal.

Talk about revenue, a Nov. 15th-21 crossbow season! WOW!

Swamp, I think that one of your problems is that you keep referring to "bowseason". The correct term is "archery season". Somehow you have it stuck in your head that "archery" refers to only verticle bows. If you would browse the DNR website or hunting guide, you will see that they refer to it as "archery" deer season. Believe me when I say that I do respect your ideas and opinions. This is by no means meant as a bash. In fact I find it commendable that you are so steadfast in your feelings. I can remember way back when compound bows came on the scene, they were scorned to no end by us traditional archers. By traditional, I am referring to longbows and recurves, both of which I hunted with for a number of years. Soon the clamor of the new bows died off and I converted to using a compound bow. If I recall, my first compound bow was the Browning X-cellerator II. A nice bow but very crude by today's standards. The point I am trying to make is that when, not if, crossbows become legal in the "archery" season in Michigan, it will probably not take very much time for the furor which is sure to follow to wane. Then we can all join hands once again and enjoy our deer seasons, no matter what legal hunting apparatus we choose.

[swoosh]

MI deer seasons, Bow, Firearm, MZ combined. MI Deer season is very liberal.

Talk about revenue, a Nov. 15th-21 crossbow season! WOW!''

Compare bowseasons and it is not;) Being ML runs with bow season. MI bow season is the shortest of the states I listed.

PA and NY have it worst IMO

MI gun seasons are insane, not liberal.

[Riva]

Like I have asked before. How is the crossbow going to positively affect my bowhunting?

Unrestricted crossbow advocates must prove to every one of MI's bowhunter's that the crossbow won't negatively affect one of the countless reason's that led them to pick up a bow and hunt during bowseason.

Crossbowhunters want in bowseason, not the other way around.

Just because I don't agree with the MBH's stance on the crossbow permit process, does not mean that I do not understand why they have to take such a hard line.

You call the MBH nefarious, that's your opinion. The MBH is of the opinion that they are protecting bowhunting and bowhunters and offer alternatives to crossbow use.

Crossbow advocates aren't interested in alternatives or compromise, they want bowseason no matter who or what is affected.

To be fair to the issues, we probably should not debate the topic of unrestricted crossbow use and the rights of disabled hunters with respect to the MBH interchangeably. Each deserves its own thread which I will create.

Still, to your comment, there are currently two appliances recognized by the state of Michigan as considered being a reasonable accommodation that will allow a person with a disability to participate as an equal during the archery season. One is a draw lock. The other is a crossbow. Those are your only alternatives.

The issue does not come from recognizing the specific appliance; that work is already done. Rather, the issue is the level of difficulty that exists for a person with a disability to meet the criteria that will allow him/her to use the appliance in the first place. HELLO!!!! The MBH has publicly stated that they not only support maintaining the current 80% permanent disability criteria, they advocate an even greater level of scrutiny surrounding the entire process! I'm sorry, that is not a call to maintain the status quo by any reach of the imagination. It is a call to make it even more difficult to obtain a permit.

Again, there is no hypocrisy in their position; they simply hate crossbows and will attempt to stunt any dialog that could lead to crossbow expansion in any venue. The hypocrisy exists by people not standing up to them and telling them they are wrong on this issue.

There are two ways to fight: you can fight fair or, you can fight dirty.
IMO, the MBH is fighting dirty. They should debate the issue of crossbow expansion on its merits, like you guys are on this forum. Right now, they are using disabled people as expendable pawns to assure that their agenda prevails.

I'll start the new thread. I hope that you write a letter. I really do.

[specificgravity]

Riva, that would be a great thread to start.

[Hungry Wolf]

The MBH has publicly stated that they not only support maintaining the current 80% permanent disability criteria, they advocate an even greater level of scrutiny surrounding the entire process! I'm sorry, that is not a call to maintain the status quo by any reach of the imagination. It is a call to make it even more difficult to obtain a permit.


The MBH calls for greater scrutiny because they feel that some cheaters out there are taking advantage of the system- Not to take bows out of the hands of the disabled... I don't know how 'a close, careful examination' of the permit process will stop those who are truly disabled from obtaining a permit??

[Liv4Huntin']

Like I have asked before. How is the crossbow going to positively affect my bowhunting?

Unrestricted crossbow advocates must prove to every one of MI's bowhunter's that the crossbow won't negatively affect one of the countless reason's that led them to pick up a bow and hunt during bowseason.

Crossbowhunters want in bowseason, not the other way around.

Just because I don't agree with the MBH's stance on the crossbow permit process, does not mean that I do not understand why they have to take such a hard line.

You call the MBH nefarious, that's your opinion. The MBH is of the opinion that they are protecting bowhunting and bowhunters and offer alternatives to crossbow use.

Crossbow advocates aren't interested in alternatives or compromise, they want bowseason no matter who or what is affected.

Swamp, the above seems to be your norm: when you don't/cant answer a question, you 'turn it around' and put it back on the one that originally posed the question. Please answer in first person how it will negatively affect YOU. We're all waiting.......

The only way to 'prove' your second point is to make it happen.... you will not see the truth until crossbows are actually in use full time during Michigan's archery season. Only then will ACTUAL figures for Michigan be realized. Why do you continue to fight this fact?

Crossbows are a piece of archery equipment, nothing more, nothing less. Yes, they belong in archery season.

Oh, and if you don't agree with MBH's stance, HAVE YOU PASSED THAT INFORMATION ALONG TO THEM???. I assume you are a member. If others do what you seem to have been doing, how can the MBH know they do NOT represent their memberships opininons and views? It seems MBH is not protecting Michigan archery hunter's anything , only their own narrow views.

And Why do you feel that MBH has the RIGHT to give the rest of the State's archery hunters any 'ALTERNATIVE' ? Total inclusion is the ony way to get factual information FOR MICHIGAN... Just MHO. What about the rights of those that you refuse to acknowledge?

Crossbow season proposal: Only two weeks --- last week of October through the end of the first week of Nov.
~ m ~

[Swamp Ghost]

Somehow you have it stuck in your head that "archery" refers to only verticle bows.

In MI's case "Archery" refers to vertical bows being the only legal weapon, hence Bowseason is the most accepted/common term used by MI bowhunters when discussing MI's "Archery" season.

When is the last time a hunter in MI called it "Archery" season other than when trying to make the case for a crossbow being the same as a bow?

If crossbow use was unrestricted it would be called Bow & Arrow/Crossbow, Bow/Crossbow season. States that have unrestricted crossbow use have even gone as far as defining archery equipment as longbow, recurve, and compound bow. They don't include the crossbow in the definition of archery equipment.

[Liv4Huntin']

The MBH calls for greater scrutiny because they feel that some cheaters out there are taking advantage of the system- Not to take bows out of the hands of the disabled... I don't know how 'a close, careful examination' of the permit process will stop those who are truly disabled from obtaining a permit??

Then let the MBH expose those 'cheaters' and be done with it. I suspect this is only a ploy.
~ m ~

[Riva]

The MBH calls for greater scrutiny because they feel that some cheaters out there are taking advantage of the system- Not to take bows out of the hands of the disabled... I don't know how 'a close, careful examination' of the permit process will stop those who are truly disabled from obtaining a permit??

Give me a few seconds to start the new thread but please be objective in your thought process regarding these matters. ...There is no such thing as a "TRULY" disabled person. You are either disabled or you are not. It is not a pedigree for crying out loud! It is a condition, permanent or temporary, that is of a degree of severity that, in this instance, render one unable to pull or hold a regular bow.

Cheaters? The can be no cheaters if you remove ALL criteria and leave the evaluation up to ones personal physician and the applicant. And likewise, there will be nobody falling through the cracks, as there is now.

[Munsterlndr]

I don't know how 'a close, careful examination' of the permit process will stop those who are truly disabled from obtaining a permit??

By intimidating physical therapists and doctors to the point where they say "screw it, I'm not going to even get involved in this issue if it looks like I might get hassled for signing some stupid permit". Intimidation can be a very effective means of preventing someone from providing a service. Don't believe me? Those evangelicals are not picketing abortion clinics for no reason.

[Munsterlndr]

In MI's case "Archery" refers to vertical bows being the only legal weapon, hence Bowseason is the most accepted/common term used by MI bowhunters when discussing MI's "Archery" season.


Not true. Over 20,000 hunters use crossbows during archery season in Michigan and it's perfectly legal. Of course since crossbows are just another type of bow they probably do not mind that you call that season "bow" season. :lol:

[Hungry Wolf]

Then let the MBH expose those 'cheaters' and be done with it. I suspect this is only a ploy.
~ m ~

YES! because their TRUE intention is to kick the old and crippled out of the woods... Drats! someone is on to our ploy! Our plan would have succeeded had it not been for you meddling kids! :dizzy:

[Hungry Wolf]

By intimidating physical therapists and doctors to the point where they say "screw it, I'm not going to even get involved in this issue if it looks like I might get hassled for signing some stupid permit". Intimidation can be a very effective means of preventing someone from providing a service. Don't believe me? Those evangelicals are not picketing abortion clinics for no reason.

Has the MBH purposed a lynch squad with 'the heavy' to go and pay all these physical therapists and doctors a 'visit'??? You say they are going to get hassled- How so?? Do you have any proof or are you assuming this?

[Hungry Wolf]

By intimidating physical therapists and doctors to the point where they say "screw it, I'm not going to even get involved in this issue if it looks like I might get hassled for signing some stupid permit". Intimidation can be a very effective means of preventing someone from providing a service. Don't believe me? Those evangelicals are not picketing abortion clinics for no reason.

I don't see how a close and careful examination of the permit process as intimidation... I don't see how anyone can. IMHO- It makes sure the process is done correctly and that those who truly need a permit get one. Perhaps you could say that is goes the other way- That by taking a closer look we make sure that nobody gets left out who should have been included.

[Munsterlndr]

YES! because their TRUE intention is to kick the old and crippled out of the woods... Drats! someone is on to our ploy! Our plan would have succeeded had it not been for you meddling kids! :dizzy:

No, their true plan is to force disabled hunters to use bow-locs instead of having crossbows as an alternative. Same game plan as the New York bowhunters association. By limiting the use of crossbows by the disabled they also limit the number of experienced hunters who can then provide a comparison between the two weapons and testify to the fact that they are functionally so similar as to make the point moot.

[Liv4Huntin']

YES! because their TRUE intention is to kick the old and crippled out of the woods... Drats! someone is on to our ploy! Our plan would have succeeded had it not been for you meddling kids! :dizzy:


:D :D :lol: I've been hunting more years than you've been on this earth. I would guess experience speaks for something. I know you were not disparaging 'old people' ........ Oh, and if your profile is correct, and you ARE only a bowhunter, then you don't mind 'sharing' your seasons with gun hunters. So why are you opposed to sharing them with cross bow hunters?????? hmmm?
~ m ~

[specificgravity]

Swamp, the above seems to be your norm: when you don't/cant answer a question, you 'turn it around' and put it back on the one that originally posed the question. Please answer in first person how it will negatively affect YOU. We're all waiting.......


I'd say that's a heck of a strategy and if it is any different than what you are doing right now I fail to see the difference. :\

This whole "tell me how it affects you personally" thing has already been played out. We have different seasons for different weapons and different game. He explained that he believes it is a different weapon and thus belongs in a different season. It really is as simple as that. If you're a math guy it would look like this.

Different weapon = Different season

Hey, maybe that can be our bumper sticker. Take that Riva! ;)

The only way to 'prove' your second point is to make it happen.... you will not see the truth until crossbows are actually in use full time during Michigan's archery season. Only then will ACTUAL figures for Michigan be realized. Why do you continue to fight this fact?

Well really the only way to prove anything is to make it happen. Until then we have to theorize and prophesize. :)

Crossbows are a piece of archery equipment, nothing more, nothing less. Yes, they belong in archery season.

You see this where the camps are divided. The fundamentals of the crossbow are what come into question for both camps and this what is what divides us. It is kind of like muzzleloading rifles that utilize smokeless powder. (Hopefully that doesn't set anything else off, just another example)

[Munsterlndr]

Has the MBH purposed a lynch squad with 'the heavy' to go and pay all these physical therapists and doctors a 'visit'??? You say they are going to get hassled- How so?? Do you have any proof or are you assuming this?

I have seen discussions on both Michigan specific and other archery news groups suggesting that imposing fines on physical therapists and physicians for improperly signing crossbow permits may be a means of reducing the number of "cheaters". I don't remember specifically but I think that they proposed that the DNR act as the investigatory body (like they have the resources and manpower to do that.! )

[Liv4Huntin']

I'd say that's a heck of a strategy and if it is any different than what you are doing right now I fail to see the ifference. :\


Different weapon = Different season


Well really the only way to prove anything is to make it happen. Until then we have to theorize and prophesize. :)


You see this where the camps are divided. The fundamentals of the crossbow are what come into question for both camps and this what is what divides us. It is kind of like muzzleloading rifles that utilize smokeless powder. (Hopefully that doesn't set anything else off, just another example)

He has not answered how it will affect him... he has only changed the subject. I'm glad you're agreeing now to 'let it happen', to have full use of crossbows in archery season in Michigan. Thank you.

The fundamentals of the crossbow are just that: limbs store energy, that when released, propels an 'arrow' downrange' to kill by hemorage. No powder, no smoke, no bullets. It's 'kind of like' a bow, which it is.

Not setting anything 'off ' ... just reiterating facts.
~ m ~

[Swamp Ghost]

We should not debate the topic of unrestricted crossbow use and the rights of disabled hunters in the same subject matter.

But crossbow advocates INSIST on bringing up the disabled/physically challenged in EVERY discussion concerning unrestricted crossbow use as if they are interchangeable issues. Pathetic.

Like I have asked before. How is the crossbow going to positively affect my bowhunting?

Unrestricted crossbow advocates must prove to every one of MI's bowhunter's that the crossbow won't negatively affect one of the countless reason's that led them to pick up a bow and hunt during bowseason.

If you can't prove or articulate it just say it.

Crossbows hurt bowhunting because some of those who use crossbows would have become bonafide bowhunters if the xbow option were not available.

Crossbow hunting cannabilizes bowhunting.

Some bowhunters, looking to keep up with the advantaged crossbowers, will switch to crossbows (see VA, were 1/2 of the crossbow hunters were compound hunters switching).

Once again, Crossbow hunting cannabilizes bowhunting.

You wish to exercise and grow your sport at the expense of mine. You need look no further than OH, where xbows outnumber bows 3:2 and bowhunter growth lags well behind the national average, to understand the negative impact that crossbowers have on real bowhunting.

There is a parasitic relationship between crossbows and real bows, not a synergistic one. To then turn around and claim you are helpful to bowhunting - even pretend or claim you ARE a bowhunter - is ridiculous.

[Hungry Wolf]

:D :D :lol: I've been hunting more years than you've been on this earth. I would guess experience speaks for something. I know you were not disparaging 'old people' ........ Oh, and if your profile is correct, and you ARE only a bowhunter, then you don't mind 'sharing' your seasons with gun hunters. So why are you opposed to sharing them with cross bow hunters?????? hmmm?
~ m ~

I don't get what you are saying... I am a bow hunter- I bow hunt oct 1 - nov 14 and by then my season is usually over. If not I may or may not pick up a gun during gun season, a ML in ML season, or even go back to my bow in december... I am not opposed to anyone needing an accommodation using a crossbow or drawloc during bow season- otherwise if you are able bodied then you should hunt with a (vertical) bow during bow season. If you need to know why I feel that way you need to go back and do a lot of reading- I've said it time and time again. (Like both sides of this argument have)

Is everyone still enjoying the ride? :)

[Ferg]

The Michigan Natural Resources Commission will hold its regular monthly
meeting on Thursday, June 5, at the Lansing Center, located at 333 E.
Michigan Ave. in Lansing.

At 9:30 a.m., the NRC’s Crossbow Disability Work Group will meet in
Room 202 to discuss a proposed draft language for crossbow permits.

This just in :)

ferg....

[specificgravity]

He has not answered how it will affect him... he has only changed the subject. I'm glad you're agreeing now to 'let it happen', to have full use of crossbows in archery season in Michigan. Thank you.

.........not really sure how you figure I was endorsing it??? That was just an off-the-cuff comment about the philosophy of proving something.

The fundamentals of the crossbow are just that: limbs store energy, that when released, propels an 'arrow' downrange' to kill by hemorage. No powder, no smoke, no bullets. It's 'kind of like' a bow, which it is.

Not setting anything 'off ' ... just reiterating facts.
~ m ~

So you're saying there is no difference between a bow and a crossbow?

[Liv4Huntin']

I don't get what you are saying... I am a bow hunter- I bow hunt oct 1 - nov 14 and by then my season is usually over. If not I may or may not pick up a gun during gun season, a ML in ML season, or even go back to my bow in december... I am not opposed to anyone needing an accommodation using a crossbow or drawloc during bow season- otherwise if you are able bodied then you should hunt with a (vertical) bow during bow season. If you need to know why I feel that way you need to go back and do a lot of reading- I've said it time and time again. (Like both sides of this argument have)

Is everyone still enjoying the ride? :)
In your profile you said you hunt 60 days +. You also state you BOW hunt. No mention of guns. Therefore if you hunt 60+ days and bowhunt only, you are bowhunting when there are gunhunterss afield. Just going by what you posted on your profile.
~ m ~

[Swamp Ghost]

Not true. Over 20,000 hunters use crossbows during archery season in Michigan and it's perfectly legal. Of course since crossbows are just another type of bow they probably do not mind that you call that season "bow" season. :lol:

If a person has a medical disability that meets the criteria set forth by the DNR then, one can obtain a permit to hunt with a crossbow. It is participating as an equal and a crossbow has been determined by the State of Michigan to be a reasonable accommodation to facilitate that need.


We all call it bowseason and I view those 20,000 hunters as bowhunters, as does every other bowhunter I know.

[Hungry Wolf]

I have seen discussions on both Michigan specific and other archery news groups suggesting that imposing fines on physical therapists and physicians for improperly signing crossbow permits may be a means of reducing the number of "cheaters". I don't remember specifically but I think that they proposed that the DNR act as the investigatory body (like they have the resources and manpower to do that.! )

I can't believe I'm arguing this because its not what I personally believe, its just that I think MBH have a somewhat valid point/position:

If by 'improperly signing' you mean knowingly allowing someone to cheat then I support that 100%. PT and Doctors go to school for a long time to learn how to do their job- They are the experts- They should know what they are doing and stand by their work. Most of us are asked to do it all the time in our careers.

If by 'improperly signing' you mean Nazi like tatics that say "DR. SMITH- YOU SIGNED ON THE WRONG LINE AND USED THER WRONG COLOR INK- PLEASE COME WITH US..." well then you have a point (wait- did I just possibly agree with Musnterlndr?? I gotta go lay down... ;))

[Hungry Wolf]

In your profile you said you hunt 60 days +. You also state you BOW hunt. No mention of guns. Just going by what you posted on your profile.
~ m ~

Ok I see- the 'BOW' was to show strong preference...

[Liv4Huntin']

.........not really sure how you figure I was endorsing it??? That was just an off-the-cuff comment about the philosophy of proving something.



So you're saying there is no difference between a bow and a crossbow?

"Well really the only way to prove anything is to make it happen. Until then we have to theorize and prophesize. " (Your quote from the earlier post.)

I never said there is no difference between a bow and a crossbow ... those are your words.
~ m ~

[steveboss]

I wonder if they had these conversations when the Compound Bow was introduced?:confused:

[TJO]

And now SG wants to pick on us smokeless powder ML guys boy oh boy get real :lol: in a crossbow thread no less.

[7MM Magnum]

I don't see how a close and careful examination of the permit process as intimidation... I don't see how anyone can. IMHO- It makes sure the process is done correctly and that those who truly need a permit get one. Perhaps you could say that is goes the other way- That by taking a closer look we make sure that nobody gets left out who should have been included.


That's the whole point of the issue as Riva and others here have tried to explain,... either your disabled in some capacity or NOT! There should not be a discriminatory factor of HOW MUCH of a disability. :dizzy::rant::mad:

I'm sure there's a legality being questioned as to why a person who is 80% disabled CAN obtain a permit,... as opposed to a person who is 78%, 60%, or 30%. Awfully damn stupid if you ask me.

Either you ARE,... or you are NOT, plain and simple!!! :16suspect

My .02 worth,.. and I have alot of catching up to do to match Swamp! :lol:

[specificgravity]

And now SG wants to pick on us smokeless powder ML guys boy oh boy get real :lol: in a crossbow thread no less.

Somebody's getting a "D-" in reading. I quoted myself and highlighted the important part for you. Mostly because I love quoting myself, makes me feel epic. :)


You see this where the camps are divided. The fundamentals of the crossbow are what come into question for both camps and this what is what divides us. It is kind of like muzzleloading rifles that utilize smokeless powder. (Hopefully that doesn't set anything else off, just another example)

I was merely pointing out another example of where the fundamentals of something are what divides hunters' opinions and was not "picking" on you. Alright the reading part was a small jab but I didn't say anything about your smokepole........or smokelesspole, whichever you prefer.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

THIS SAYS BOW IN IT:lol::lol::lol:

[specificgravity]

I never said there is no difference between a bow and a crossbow ... those are your words.
~ m ~

Yeah, I worded that wrong. Are you saying that the fundamentals of the archery device should not include how it is operated?

[Whit1]

I wonder if they had these conversations when the Compound Bow was introduced?:confused:

Yes they did.

[TJO]

SG, I just had to jump in this somehow:D

[swampbuck]

We all call it bowseason and I view those 20,000 hunters as bowhunters, as does every other bowhunter I know.
I CANT BELIEVE YOU FINALLY ADMITTED THAT:SHOCKED:
well then whats the problem with unrestricted crossbows. a bowhunter is a bowhunter just like you said !!!!!!!:D:D:D

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

I wonder if they had these conversations when the Compound Bow was introduced?:confused:

THIS IS NOTHING COMPARED TO BACK THEN ! IT WAS LIKE:rant::rant::rant::rant: MY DEER:rant::rant::rant:MY SEASON:rant::rant:MY DEER

[Swamp Ghost]

I CANT BELIEVE YOU FINALLY ADMITTED THAT:SHOCKED:
well then whats the problem with unrestricted crossbows. a bowhunter is a bowhunter just like you said !!!!!!!:D:D:D

Yep, it says alot about hunters that do not let a physical challenge stand in their way of enjoying bowseason.

[skipper34]

I wonder if they had these conversations when the Compound Bow was introduced?:confused:

Many if not most of the members on this site were not alive when the compound bow was introduced. I was an avid bowhunter at the time, with recurve bow, cedar arrows which I made myself, and broadheads which were all hand-sharpened. Heck we didn't even use bowsights back then. And rest assured that there was as much if not more debate raging about the compound bow just as now with crossbows. It took a while before compound bows became accepted as legitimate hunting tools and there was fierce opposition. Crossbows are not in the same league as far as controversy because they have been a weapon of choice for many hunters where legal for decades. I can still see the day, in the not-too-distant future, where we will remember crossbows like the first compound bows. The clamoring will wane when they become legal across the board, and none of us will be any worse off for it.

[Ranger Ray]

I don't see where one can use a morality argument when talking weapon of choice to kill a animal. Crossbow should be a weapon option for the taking of deer. As far as season goes it should be up to those we put in charge to make those decisions, as long as they are based with all in mind. The admittance of crossbows into bow season is of little consequence compared to the division of our ranks.

[skipper34]

The arguments stem from the fact that crossbows are different, not by much, but different. Here in Michigan, it is a lesser-used tool for the same purpose. Many people are afraid of different, for whatever reason, but the fact remains that different causes some unrest in some people. The same happened with the compound bow. Seeing as how statistically and factually the crossbow is not much different as far as an efficient weapon compared to a compound, when they do indeed become legal across the board for our archery seasons, their acceptance will be quick and forthcoming. Just another means to an end. Pretty simple really.

[Swamp Ghost]

T statistically and factually the crossbow is not much different as far as an efficient weapon compared to a compound, when they do indeed become legal across the board for our archery seasons, their acceptance will be quick and forthcoming. Just another means to an end. Pretty simple really.

Legalize .357's, anyone?

[Munsterlndr]

Legalize .357's, anyone?

I think you need your hearing checked Swamp, .357's go boom, hence the fact that they are legal in firearms season.

It's not rocket science, dude. :lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

Seeing as how statistically and factually the crossbow is not much different as far as an efficient weapon compared to a

.357, Flintlock ML, etc., etc......

Oh that's right they are loud, they ARE different......:dizzy:

So much for your success rate mantra.....

How is a guy 20, 200, or 2000 yards away hunting with a firearm in bowseason going to effect your bowhunting? Why should you care?

[One Eye]

Legalize .357's, anyone?

Stay tuned. Once the crossbow's luster has faded, the next big push will be "any weapons" seasons and your question will prove prophetic". Shouldn't be a big deal though, since there will be monster bucks "behind every tree" by then, right?? <sarcasm fully intended> :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Dan

[Swamp Ghost]

Shouldn't be a big deal though, since there will be monster bucks "behind every tree" by then, right?? <sarcasm fully intended> :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Dan

LOL! Not with these reg's. Maybe monster doe's......:D

[Riva]

Stay tuned. Once the crossbow's luster has faded, the next big push will be "any weapons" seasons and your question will prove prophetic". Shouldn't be a big deal though, since there will be monster bucks "behind every tree" by then, right?? <sarcasm fully intended> :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Dan

http://www.fstdt.com/winace/pics/slippery_slope.jpg :dizzy::dizzy:

[Munsterlndr]

Stay tuned. Once the crossbow's luster has faded, the next big push will be "any weapons" seasons and your question will prove prophetic". Shouldn't be a big deal though, since there will be monster bucks "behind every tree" by then, right?? <sarcasm fully intended> :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Dan

Another expert prediction from the master of hyperbole. Care to name one state that has allowed crossbows into archery where that has happened?

I thought not. :lol:

[Riva]

Another expert prediction from the master of hyperbole. Care to name one state that has allowed crossbows into archery where that has happened?

I thought not. :lol:

I think it is advisable that I set your level of expectation with regard to One Eye regarding responding to issues that he himself has offered up. My advice is that you should have absolutely no expectations in receiving a response from this person whatsoever. It now established that his standard methodology is to toss out a red herring, straw man, unfounded fact etc., and then hunker down in silence without having an ounce of accountability in support of his assertions.

Even my high school debate coach would give him an" F-minus" for such infantile behavior. However; I, for one, would think that in an adult arena, where subject of such material consequence that this grown man appears to hold so near and dear to his heart, would take a more adult approach and debate the issues on their merits. Seems his entire gang suffers from the same malady; as I have yet to receive a reply to any of the items that I have asked him to respond to recently. :rolleyes:

So, bottom line, don't expect much and if you do hear from him, don't expect it to thought out too well.:lol: