NJ Crossbow Opinion Survey

[Riva]

Thought that you folks that support unrestricted use of crossbows during the hunting seasons would be interested in the results of a survey recently conducted by the state of New Jersey regarding crossbow attitudes. I can tell you, 1,000 respondents (out of a total of 2,000 mailed) is considered to be a statistically reliable survey. Enjoy.


An Assessment of New Jersey Resident Hunter Opinion on Crossbow Use



EXECUTIVE SUMMARY



The Crossbow has become a popular hunting tool throughout the United States, with only three states in the country not permitting Crossbow use of any kind. Interest in crossbows among New Jersey hunters has grown as well, as evidenced by requests to the Division of Fish and Wildlife to add the crossbow to the list of legal hunting weapons.

The Fish and Game Council acknowledged this growing interest in Crossbows, as well as an objection to Crossbows among some hunters. Therefore, in order to supply the Fish and Game Council with sound data on which to base it’s decision, the Division of Fish and Wildlife conducted a scientifically sound survey. This was done to determine the opinion of a random selection of hunters who represented all New Jersey hunters, rather than just those who took the time to directly contact the Division.

The survey was conducted in December 2007 to determine the opinion of resident hunters on the expansion of Crossbow use for deer hunting in New Jersey. Currently, only people with disabilities are permitted to hunt with Crossbows. A survey was mailed to 2,030 resident hunters who purchased licenses using the Division’s automated licensing system. One thousand, forty-seven surveys were returned (51.6 %) indicating a very strong interest in this subject. A summary of results follows:

PARTICIPATION IN DEER HUNTING IN NEW JERSEY
► Resident license buyers were asked which deer seasons they participate in. Only three percent of respondents were not deer hunters. User groups were defined by the seasons hunted, breaking down deer hunters into bow and gun hunters, gun-only hunters, and bow-only hunters. It was determined that 72% of participating deer hunters use both bow and guns; 23% hunt with guns only; and 5% hunt with bows only.





SUPPORT FOR CROSSBOWS FOR DEER HUNTING
► Total support (strong support and moderate support) for the expansion of the use of Crossbows for deer hunting was overwhelmingly in favor (73%) among all respondents.

► When broken down by user groups, total support was still in favor of crossbows: bow & gun hunters, 72%; gun-only hunters, 79%; bow-only hunters, 67%. The majority of non-deer hunters were also in favor of Crossbows (56%).

► When broken down by affiliation (hunt club member, NJ Federation of Sportsmen’s Clubs member, member of both, or unaffiliated), support was still in favor of Crossbows: hunt club, 74%; Federation, 74%; both, 63%; unaffiliated, 74%. Total opposition (strong opposition and moderate opposition) between affiliations: hunt club, 23%; Federation, 25%; both, 30%; unaffiliated, 21%.

PLACEMENT OF CROSSBOWS
► Supporters of Crossbows were asked in which deer season(s) should Crossbow use be allowed. The selection “all bow seasons” was preferred (54%) by all respondents. The second most popular choice of all respondents was “all deer seasons” (24%).

► When broken down by user group, the favored response was still “all bow seasons”: bow & gun hunters, 53%; gun-only hunters, 55%; bow-only hunters, 53%. The second most popular choice among user groups were as follows: bow & gun hunters, “all deer seasons” (25%); gun-only hunters, “all deer seasons” (21%); bow-only hunters, “all deer seasons”, “all gun seasons”, and “permit bow season”, all tied at 8%.

SUPPORT FOR CROSSBOWS TO CONTROL DEER POPULATIONS
► Participants were asked if they support the use of crossbows in areas where it is difficult to control deer. Total support among all respondents was 74%.

► When broken down by user group, total support in favor of using crossbows in areas where it is difficult to control deer was: bow & gun hunters, 73%; gun-only hunters, 81%; bow-only hunters, 70%.

LEGAL AGE FOR CROSSBOW USE
► Participants were asked what age group(s) should be legal for crossbow use. The majority of all respondents chose age “17 and older” (23%); the second favored response was “all ages” (17%).

PARTICIPATION IN CROSSBOW HUNTING
► Respondents were asked how likely they were to hunt with a crossbow now, if legalized. The majority of all respondents (60%) will likely use a crossbow.

► When broken down by user group, the majority of hunters still agree they will use a crossbow now: bow & gun hunters, 62%; gun-only hunters, 59%; bow-only hunters, 54%.

► Respondents were also asked if they thought they might use a crossbow as they grow older. The majority of all respondents would use a crossbow as they age (64%). When broken down by user group, the majority of hunters think they will use a crossbow as they age: bow & gun hunters, 68%; gun-only hunters, 61%; bow-only hunters, 53%.

SUPPORT FOR CROSSBOW USE BY WOMEN AND YOUTHS
► The majority of respondents supported the use of crossbows by women and youths that cannot draw back a regular bow (57%)


AFFILIATION
► The majority of respondents were unaffiliated (55%); 29% belonged to a hunting club, 10% belonged to the NJ Federation of Sportsmen’s Clubs, and 6% belonged to both a hunting club and the Federation.

YEARS HUNTED IN NEW JERSEY
► Participants were asked how many years they have been hunting in New Jersey. The majority (39%) of respondents has been hunting between 21 and 40 years. However, this data is biased in that Youth hunters (those with a free youth license, ages 10 through 16) were not included in this survey.

AGE AND GENDER
► The majority of participating hunters were 40 years old or older (76%); however, this data is biased toward older hunters as Youth hunters (those with a free youth license, ages 10 through 16) were not included in this survey.

► The overwhelming majority of respondents were male (99%).

[wildcoy73]

So about right. From what i have been getting michigan has a strong support for the use of crossbows. just don't see anyone that makes the rule doing the homework to get this issue pass the boards and into the woods.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

thanks RIVA, lots of good information in that survey. i would have to believe that if one of similar questions was asked of the MICHIGAN sportsmen and women it would be the same.:coolgleam

[Swamp Ghost]

Just what MI needs, more inept hunters in the woods.

[wally-eye]

Just what MI needs, more inept hunters in the woods.


Just when you think you've heard it all.........geez....

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

Just what MI needs, more inept hunters in the woods.

doesn't everyone know:yikes: that the SWAMP GHOST is the most authoritative and knowledgeable person/hunter :yikes:on this site and only he can say who and how we all can hunt.:gaga: i mean he sits right under GOD DOESN'T HE:dizzy: oh by the way HITLER'S DEAD P.A.L.:help:

[Swamp Ghost]

doesn't everyone know:yikes: that the SWAMP GHOST is the most authoritative and knowledgeable person/hunter :yikes:on this site and only he can say who and how we all can hunt.:gaga: i mean he sits right under GOD DOESN'T HE:dizzy: oh by the way HITLER'S DEAD P.A.L.:help:

LOL! God and Hitler in the same run-on sentence, I feel honored.

We have more recreational opportunity than any other Midwest state when it comes to deer hunting. We have just about as many hunters as this state can handle. We have killed roughly the same amount of deer for 20 years. We continue to kill far more antlered bucks than doe's.

More hunters in the woods is not the answer. If you want more time in the woods, the opportunities are there, take advantage of them.

The lazy, keep getting lazier.

[skipper34]

LOL! God and Hitler in the same run-on sentence, I feel honored.

We have more recreational opportunity than any other Midwest state when it comes to deer hunting. We have just about as many hunters as this state can handle. We have killed roughly the same amount of deer for 20 years. We continue to kill far more antlered bucks than doe's.

More hunters in the woods is not the answer. If you want more time in the woods, the opportunities are there, take advantage of them.

The lazy, keep getting lazier.

Just another un-informed, factless opinion based on emotions, not specific data or research.

[beervo2]

Show us some facts, Swamp Ghost, you better look hard!!!!:confused:

[Riva]

This is typical of the ABS (anti-crossbow society) toss in a red herring to get everybody all emotional and the thread gets closed. And, with the closing of the thread so too closes out all the information they don't want you to see, like what I have originally posted above.

The tactic is called a "seagull". Just like the bird, one swoops in, squawks, craps on everything and then, swoops out.

Just like a Pinocchio Award where the truth is maligned, one can be awarded anywhere from one to five "seagulls" from trying to keep people away from seeing the truth. So, for all his effort, I award Swamp... 2.5 "seagulls".

Good try.

[MERGANZER]

The lazy, keep getting lazier.


EXACTLY!

Ganzer

[michigandeerslayer]

EXACTLY!

Ganzerand this is because the crossbow hunters are using a crossbow and not pulling back a bow with a 90% let off using a release

To each is there own, but i think this is a sad excuse for not liking crossbow's

Thats like the guy who uses a semi-auto centerfire rifle, if he was any good he could kill with one shot I know I do:D

So we should limit all guns to a semi auto, because we might be too lazy to practice one shot one kill

[skipper34]

I have and use a semi-auto shotgun while hunting deer in zone 3. I have yet to take more than one shot using this firearm. So essentially, even though it has multi-shot capability, it is a single-shot weapon in my hands. The argument against crossbows bears no merit whatsoever other than an emotional excuse to ban their use because a group of hunters does not condone them. It is utter nonsense no matter how it is spun.

[Swamp Ghost]

I guess some just refuse to get it.

I think a pointy stick in the right hands can be a pretty effective weapon in killing a deer.

We have plenty of weapons at our disposal, adding another into the frey solves nothing.

Bow season already has too many participants, it has thoroughly degraded the quality of what was once a pristine season.

It will be like opening day of gun season for the entire deer season.

Man, that sounds like a great time.........

If you want to use an X-bow hunt Ohio, Oklahoma or New Jersey, they make it real easy for ya.

[skipper34]

I guess some just refuse to get it.

I think a pointy stick in the right hands can be a pretty effective weapon in killing a deer.

We have plenty of weapons at our disposal, adding another into the frey solves nothing.

Bow season already has too many participants, it has thoroughly degraded the quality of what was once a pristine season.

It will be like opening day of gun season for the entire deer season.

Man, that sounds like a great time.........



If you want to use an X-bow hunt Ohio, Oklahoma or New Jersey, they make it real easy for ya.

Problem is a pointy stick is not legal in this state as far as I know. So, what is it that needs to be solved? How many bowhunters in this state would you prefer? How is it that where crossbows are legal, there is not a problem with too many bowhunters? Is this idea in fear that all other states' crossbow hunters will come to Michigan to hunt? What kind of bow do you presently use? Compound? Recurve? Longbow? How difficult would you like it to be? Should everyone use the exact same bow that you use? Would this then level the so-called playing field? What is it exactly that you fear, besides not having your own way?

[Swamp Ghost]

Here is the problem, in a nutshell, no other state in the country has close to the number of deer hunters as MI.

The states where X-bows are legal, the respective management agencies are almost required to allow x-bows in order to get more participation in the "archery" seasons and meet their harvest goals.

MI archery season doesn't have that problem.

MI's current playing field is more level than any other state's.

FYI, I use a bow, a weapon that is made of a strip of flexible material (as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent and that is used to propel an arrow.

[Riva]

Here is the problem, in a nutshell, no other state in the country has close to the number of deer hunters as MI.

The states where X-bows are legal, the respective management agencies are almost required to allow x-bows in order to get more participation in the "archery" seasons and meet their harvest goals.

MI archery season doesn't have that problem.

MI's current playing field is more level than any other state's.

FYI, I use a bow, a weapon that is made of a strip of flexible material (as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent and that is used to propel an arrow.

Sorry you're going to have to back those statement up with some hard numbers otherwise it's just hyperbole backed up by a personal opinion.

If one looks at the statistics above, it's clear that over 70% of those surveyed indicated that they are in favor of crossbows. This support even includes those who are members of structured sports-person's associations. And from that statistic, one can only surmise that the negative advocacy surrounding crossbows that emanates from many of these organizations is not reflective of the real attitudes of their membership at large. Rather, it screams to the fact that anti-crossbow advocacy is merely the position of the leadership hierarchy than it is the group at large. In other words, "the bosses have the microphone" however; the numbers clearly show, it's hardly a unified voice by any reasonable measure. Numbers don't lie and, this was a random survey.

[wildcoy73]

Ghost Michigan does have a problem. If a problem was not present we would not be talking about a doe season in September. So we do not have enough hunters in the woods. With the outlook i see and the facts I have found, crossbows will not add that many hunters to the woods in October. I know for a fact I will keep with my compound, for i can not afford to buy a crossbow, and many of our fellow sportsmen are in the same boat.
We need this to be decided on the facts, and not on the emotion of us for or against the use of a crossbow.
crossbow has flexable limbs, a string connectingthe two and pushes a stick at a target. Does this sound like the bow that is in your hand?

[KI Jim]

I continually hear that MI does not have enough hunters in the woods. Yet, try to get access to a farm in southern MI. Hunting is a truly GREAT sport, but it is getting to be way too much of a hassle

Jim

[Falk]

Cross bows for anyone that wants to use one is okay by me as long as it is allowed for gun season only.

[michigandeerslayer]

Cross bows for anyone that wants to use one is okay by me as long as it is allowed for gun season only.A arrow is a arrow isn't?

[Munsterlndr]

Here is the problem, in a nutshell, no other state in the country has close to the number of deer hunters as MI.


I'd say Michigan & Wisconsin are pretty close.

These numbers are from 2003 just because I happen to have the Wisconsin numbers handy from that year but the difference has not changed substantially since then.

Michigan
Firearms 683,951
Archery 314,961
Combined harvest -485,374

Wisconsin
Firearms 645,906
Archery 247,533
Combined harvest - 483,978

Wisconsin allows hunters over 60 to use crossbows during the regular archery season. Since that rule change was enacted 3 years ago, it has had no noticeable impact on harvest numbers.

Another strawman bites the dust! ;)

.

[swampstand]

MichiganDeerSlayer, you ask, "An arrow is an arrow isn't it"? I say emphatically, NO. First of all, I think the projectile used in crossbows is called a "Bolt". I don't know how anyone can say that a crossbow is comparible to an actual bow. There is a reason why they are not allowed in general archery hunting in some states. It doesn't take much to be proficient with a crossbow, and it doesn't take much pull the trigger of an arrow that has been held in the drawn position for you before you even see the animal. There is simply no comparison in body mechanics and technique required of these two very different weapons, in fact, there isn't much technique at all involved in shooting a crossbow bolt. It really would be like hunting with a short range rifle.

I'm completely with Swamp Ghost on this one. You can crunch all the numbers and facts you want, but allowing an arrow rifle to be used during "ARCHERY" season will most certainly result in a huge influx of opportunists tainting this amazingly peaceful season. It's not a matter of right or wrong to allow this weapon, it's a matter of personal opinion. And I personally will NEVER want to see crossbows allowed in the general sense during our archery seasons. If someone wants to hunt during archery season, get a real bow and become proficient with it, you'll likely fall in love with bow hunting as it should be just as so many of us have.

SwampGhost is right, there are lots of other things you can be doing to spend more time in the woods, no need to get radical with our archery season. LEAVE IT ALONE!

Seriously, can you really imagine what it would be like in the woods on opening day of archery season if crossbows were allowed? I think the woods can only handle one november 15th per year.

[skipper34]

Swampstand, this is still a factless, emotional opinion. There is absolutely no data to support your claims. When Ohio opened the door to Xbow use during its regular archery season, there was no huge influx of would-be bowhunters flooding the woods and fields with crossbows. What makes you so sure that this would happen in Michigan? Did you see it in a dream or something? What would make the state of Michigan an exception? Are there thousands of individuals out there just waiting and hoping that crossbows are finally made legal to hunt with? Are there would-be archery deer hunters, who have never shot or even held a bow in their hands, just wringing their hands in anticipation of an open crossbow deer season? My feeling is that no, there would be no huge upswell of additional hunters. The data supports this. Can you see just how rediculous this unwarranted fear of yours really is? Or is it because you just want all bowhunters to do and act the same way as you? Even those who are no longer able to enjoy the archery season because of physical limitations? Don't you think that this is in itself just a tad selfish on your part?

[Munsterlndr]

MichiganDeerSlayer, you ask, "An arrow is an arrow isn't it"? I say emphatically, NO. First of all, I think the projectile used in crossbows is called a "Bolt". I don't know how anyone can say that a crossbow is comparible to an actual bow. There is a reason why they are not allowed in general archery hunting in some states. It doesn't take much to be proficient with a crossbow, and it doesn't take much pull the trigger of an arrow that has been held in the drawn position for you before you even see the animal. There is simply no comparison in body mechanics and technique required of these two very different weapons, in fact, there isn't much technique at all involved in shooting a crossbow bolt. It really would be like hunting with a short range rifle.

I'm completely with Swamp Ghost on this one. You can crunch all the numbers and facts you want, but allowing an arrow rifle to be used during "ARCHERY" season will most certainly result in a huge influx of opportunists tainting this amazingly peaceful season. It's not a matter of right or wrong to allow this weapon, it's a matter of personal opinion. And I personally will NEVER want to see crossbows allowed in the general sense during our archery seasons. If someone wants to hunt during archery season, get a real bow and become proficient with it, you'll likely fall in love with bow hunting as it should be just as so many of us have.

SwampGhost is right, there are lots of other things you can be doing to spend more time in the woods, no need to get radical with our archery season. LEAVE IT ALONE!

Seriously, can you really imagine what it would be like in the woods on opening day of archery season if crossbows were allowed? I think the woods can only handle one november 15th per year.

Yet another example of an argument founded solely on opinion with a total absence of any supporting fact. Funny how whenever somebody does not like the factual data that is presented to them, they say "you can crunch all the numbers and facts you want but you won't change my mind even if the truth is staring me in the face like a train coming down the tracks. I'd rather stand there like a doe in the headlights and get run over instead of admitting that all of my emotionally based arguments don't amount to a hill of beans."

Fact: Harvest success rates are virtually identical between crossbow and vertical bows. Firearms success rates are higher than both vertical bows and crossbows. Logical conclusion; there is no inherent advantage in using a crossbow over a vertical bow but there is a substantive advantage to using a firearm. So much for crossbow hunting being like using a short range rifle.

Fact: Michigan has 70,000 fewer archery hunters today than we did less than 10 years ago. Introducing a substantial number of crossbow hunters will have no more impact on the archery season than those extra 70,000 bow hunters had ten years ago. I don't recall hearing archers complaining that there were too many bowhunters in 1998 or seeking to stop more bow hunters from joining the ranks. So much for the impact of a "huge influx" of crossbow hunters.

The fact is we are seeing a sustained "Outflux" in archery hunter numbers. No wonder you think the woods are peaceful, if this trend continues they will become downright cemetery like. While I'm sure some shortsighted individuals would just as soon have a public resource and archery season all to themselves, what they fail to realize is that the DNR uses seasons and limits as tools to manage the deer population. Instead of having a peaceful archery season all to yourself, if archery hunters and the corresponding harvest continues to fall, what you will see is an expansion of early firearms seasons, early muzzleloader seasons, and other "influxes" of hunters with boomsticks that will have a much more substantive impact on the peacefulness of the season than sharing the woods with a few silent crossbow hunters will. I think this type of "logic" is called cutting off your nose to spite your face". :rolleyes:

[wally-eye]

I have to laugh as Michigan hasn't had a "pristine" archery season since "before" compound bows were allowed in archery season...........

[Swamp Ghost]

I'd say Michigan & Wisconsin are pretty close.

These numbers are from 2003 just because I happen to have the Wisconsin numbers handy from that year but the difference has not changed substantially since then.

Michigan
Firearms 683,951
Archery 314,961
Combined harvest -485,374

Wisconsin
Firearms 645,906
Archery 247,533
Combined harvest - 483,978

Wisconsin allows hunters over 60 to use crossbows during the regular archery season. Since that rule change was enacted 3 years ago, it has had no noticeable impact on harvest numbers.

Another strawman bites the dust! ;)

.

How is allowing hunters over 60 to use a crossbow going to effect harvest numbers? It wont.

MI seniors purchased about 33,000 combination tags and 3,500 archery tags.

The average age of the MI hunter is 41.

Showing data from a comparable state that allows a minority of hunters to use a crossbow and then using that data to support your argument is misleading at best.

The issue for me is not so much the effect on MI harvest numbers. It's the effect of allowing every hunter the ability to use a crossbow in the archery season and what that will do to the ever decreasing solitude of an already crowded archery season.

Secondly, MI archery hunters are the worst ones when it comes to harvesting antlerless deer in this state, allowing more hunters into archery season will only make our already lop-sided buck:doe harvest ratio even worse.

Using the "crossbows will allow hunters to kill more deer" is a poor one. MI hunters have unprecedented recreational opportunities to hunt deer. DMU's have mountains of antlerless tags that go unfilled every year.

MI has a severe hunter management problem on their hands, not a weapon mangement one.

[Swamp Ghost]

Fact: Michigan has 70,000 fewer archery hunters today than we did less than 10 years ago. Introducing a substantial number of crossbow hunters will have no more impact on the archery season than those extra 70,000 bow hunters had ten years ago. I don't recall hearing archers complaining that there were too many bowhunters in 1998 or seeking to stop more bow hunters from joining the ranks. So much for the impact of a "huge influx" of crossbow hunters.

Again, very misleading.

With the advent of the combination tags, archery tags sales took a tumble.

[Munsterlndr]

Again, very misleading.

With the advent of the combination tags, archery tags sales took a tumble.
The numbers that I quoted are actual hunter numbers, not licenses sold. The numbers come from the annual hunter mail out survey and are not extrapolated from the number of licenses sold. I have the DNR harvest reports in PDF if anyone wants to debate the accuracy of the falling number of bow hunters in this state. FYI, 1998 was the first year that combination licenses were available so there was no difference in license structure between the two years compared.

Poof! another misinformed strawman bites the dust. :lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

The numbers that I quoted are actual hunter numbers, not licenses sold. The numbers come from the annual hunter mail out survey and are not extrapolated from the number of licenses sold. I have the DNR harvest reports in PDF if anyone wants to debate the accuracy of the falling number of bow hunters in this state. FYI, 1998 was the first year that combination licenses were available so there was no difference in license structure between the two years compared.

Poof! another misinformed strawman bites the dust. :lol:

I ran across that same reports, very surprising. If you look a little deeper you'll find that hunter numbers are down across the board, hardly the fault of the MI's crossbow laws. You could attribute it to many things, but the recreational opportunity is there if people choose to take advantage.

The ability to use a crossbow isn't the answer to recruit new hunters.

I guess it's hard for me to notice the loss of bow-hunters when then hunting pressure in my neck of the woods has increased exponentially.

[Riva]

As you know, I don't have a dog in this fight regarding unrestricted use of crossbows during the archery season. However; there is a flagrant dichotomy in the post from the anti-crossbow side.

One position states that there is a serious deficiency in archery-hunter numbers and, that you're welcome to come in and join the party, so long as it is not with a crossbow. To quote: "If you look a little deeper you'll find that hunter numbers are down across the board, hardly the fault of the MI's crossbow laws. You could attribute it to many things, but the recreational opportunity is there if people choose to take advantage."

Another position states that adding incremental crossbow hunters to an overly populous forest will have some sort of cataclysmic results: "It's the effect of allowing every hunter the ability to use a crossbow in the archery season and what that will do to the ever decreasing solitude of an already crowded archery season."

Again, I'm neutral on the unrestricted crossbow use issue however: I suggest that you guys rent a cheap motel room for the weekend, get a few cases of beer, order some pizzas and Chinese carry out, put a "do not disturb sign" on the door and get down to business. The first order of business is to throw all your collective, crumpled-up notes that you've got in your britches pertaining to this subject down on the bed, sort through them and then, toss out those that contradicts the other guy's position. Then, come Monday morning checkout time, compile your notes and tell people where the problem really lies, specifically: we either have too few hunters or, we have too many hunters. I do have a sneaking suspicion however; that under either scenario, crossbows will not be a remedy to either problem. Just call it a hunch on my part, OK?!:rolleyes:

[Swamp Ghost]

Pretty clever Riva.

The fact remains that we still have more licensed hunters than any state that allows crossbow use.

Incremental?

How many new hunters will be recruited by allowing crossbows? I bet very, very few.

How many "firearm only" hunters will be lured into archery season with the addition of crossbows?

The answer is pretty clear and I am adamantly opposed to letting that happen...

[Riva]

Pretty clever Riva.

The fact remains that we still have more licensed hunters than any state that allows crossbow use.

Incremental?

How many new hunters will be recruited by allowing crossbows? I bet very, very few.

How many "firearm only" hunters will be lured into archery season with the addition of crossbows?

The answer is pretty clear and I am adamantly opposed to letting that happen...


First off...we do not "allow" crossbow use. If a person has a medical disability that meets the criteria set forth by the DNR then, one can obtain a permit to hunt with a crossbow. This is not an "allowance". It is participating as an equal and a crossbow has been determined by the State of Michigan to be a reasonable accommodation to facilitate that need. By last count, approximately 25,000 persons have obtained this permit to participate as an equal during Michigan's archery season.


Secondly, one must understand that the gun-hunting universe and the archery-hunting universe are not mutually exclusive. A great number of archery hunters are also gun hunters and visa versa. The fact is, there is no "enemy outside the gates" as you fear. The enemy is, perhaps to your chagrin, already inside the gates and hunting in the tree right alongside of you during the archery season. In other words, the Philistines are already amongst you!

[wally-eye]

So true Riva so true. That reminds me of something I seen about 40 years ago. In 1968 I was in Oakland CA getting ready to ship out overseas and seen a hippie type carrying a sign that said the world was going to end on Dec. 1st. 1968.............funny as when I came back home from overseas 14 months later (June 69) I seen the exact same person outside the same airport carrying the same sign except he had crossed out the date and added a new one. Guess the world didn't end when he thought it should and the anti-crossbow society in the other states that are allowing crossbows are finding out the same thing, it wasn't the end of the world nor the destruction of their archery season. Some people are just determined to find a boogie man in every situation and won't stop till they do.

[Swamp Ghost]

First off...we do not "allow" crossbow use. If a person has a medical disability that meets the criteria set forth by the DNR then, one can obtain a permit to hunt with a crossbow. This is not an "allowance". It is participating as an equal and a crossbow has been determined by the State of Michigan to be a reasonable accommodation to facilitate that need. By last count, approximately 25,000 persons have obtained this permit to participate as an equal during Michigan's archery season.


Secondly, one must understand that the gun-hunting universe and the archery-hunting universe are not mutually exclusive. A great number of archery hunters are also gun hunters and visa versa. The fact is, there is no "enemy outside the gates" as you fear. The enemy is, perhaps to your chagrin, already inside the gates and hunting in the tree right alongside of you during the archery season. In other words, the Philistines are already amongst you!

First off.... List a state that has as many hunters as Michigan that allows/permits the unrestricted use of a crossbow during the archery season. It appears there is some miscommunication.

Secondly.....your opinion that the gun/archery hunter universe are not mutually exclusive is just as speculative as mine.

The fact is no one knows what the effects of allowing unrestricted crossbow use in MI's archery season will have on harvest numbers or the quality of hunt. I do know the result of leaving things as they are.

It's an experiment that I have no desire to be forced to participate in.

[TJO]

This subject will never be settled here however, I do have a couple comments. I would like to know where it is written that bow hunting has to be hard/difficult? Why is it that some want to impose that difficulty on others?
Ya know I could go along with the no xbows if we changed the regs to no sights, no trigger releases, no letoff, no scopes etc.
I look at this the same way as ML season if ya change the regs to flint or cap guns RB only no scopes etc. Or shotguns with smooth bore and no sabot slugs and scopes.
The times are changing as much as most hate change its going to happen and no matter what you think hunter #'s are dropping thats fact and young folks aren't interested in it like they use to be anymore.
As far as I'm concerened if ya take all the fancy compounds off the market then I would agree with the no xbows but if not then allow the xbow as just another piece of archery equipment as it rightfully is.

[skipper34]

TJO that is a good post. My feeling about it is, from reading some of the posts, that the anti's are afraid of the so-called competition from those who would decide to use a crossbow who have never used a bow period. They have this problem thinking that anyone who would use a crossbow as a first archery weapon is somehow lazy or inept. I agree, with today's modern archery equipment, there is really no need to scorn the crossbow as something superior. It is also largely a matter that there are still many hunters who view hunting as a competitive sport, and any so-called unfair advantage will put their hunting in jeopardy. It's the same old "don't shoot MY deer" syndrome.

[awshucks]

Here's a few facts from last deer season in Arkansas. We took 165,663 deer total. Of that, the vert crowd got 10,614. xbows got 4,608. we've had the xbows for a LONG time, unrestricted. I got one, lol, but could have tagged 4, not counting extra urban tags. All's well in Ar!

[pescadero]

Bow season already has too many participants, it has thoroughly degraded the quality of what was once a pristine season.

You're 30. You can only legally have been bow hunting since 1990. There are less bow hunters now than at any time during your entire bow hunting career.

--
lp

[skipper34]

The logic is that he would like to see even fewer bowhunters so that there is less chance of someone else shooting HIS deer. Plain and simple. A very self-centered attitude.

[buck37]

[QUOTE][There are less bow hunters now than at any time during your entire bow hunting career./QUOTE]
I would also like to point out that there is also alot less land to hunt than there was in 1990 due to urban sprawl.

[Swamp Ghost]

This subject will never be settled here however, I do have a couple comments. I would like to know where it is written that bow hunting has to be hard/difficult? Why is it that some want to impose that difficulty on others?
Ya know I could go along with the no xbows if we changed the regs to no sights, no trigger releases, no letoff, no scopes etc.
I look at this the same way as ML season if ya change the regs to flint or cap guns RB only no scopes etc. Or shotguns with smooth bore and no sabot slugs and scopes.
The times are changing as much as most hate change its going to happen and no matter what you think hunter #'s are dropping thats fact and young folks aren't interested in it like they use to be anymore.
As far as I'm concerened if ya take all the fancy compounds off the market then I would agree with the no xbows but if not then allow the xbow as just another piece of archery equipment as it rightfully is.

no sights, no trigger releases, no letoff, no scopes etc.

Fine by me. But, if it's so easy why don't we have more archery hunters? Why would you even need a crossbow? Simple answer, it's one more way to dumb down deer hunting.

I am not interested in chaos that starts on Nov. 15th starting on Oct. 1st.

As I have said before, the least of my worries is how many deer additional deer are harvested by allowing unrestricted use of crossbows in the archery season.

30% of MI hunters kill 90% of the deer, that's not gonna change. Kinda reinforces my inept analogy.

[wally-eye]

Fine by me. But, if it's so easy why don't we have more archery hunters? Why would you even need a crossbow? Simple answer, it's one more way to dumb down deer hunting.

I am not interested in chaos that starts on Nov. 15th starting on Oct. 1st.

As I have said before, the least of my worries is how many deer additional deer are harvested by allowing unrestricted use of crossbows in the archery season.

30% of MI hunters kill 90% of the deer, that's not gonna change. Kinda reinforces my inept analogy.


30% of MI hunters kill 90% of the deer, that's not gonna change. Regardless of the weapon which does blow your anti crossbow theory out the window........its just another tool to a end.........

[Swamp Ghost]

You're 30. You can only legally have been bow hunting since 1990. There are less bow hunters now than at any time during your entire bow hunting career.

--
lp

I'm 35, haven't updated my profile. I've been bowhunting since I was 14. There were a whole heck of alot of bowhunters in 1988 as I recall. but that's when most of 'em hunted the NLP.

Along with urban sprawl we have more hunting effort in the SLP than the NLP and UP combined. I am not interested in applying more.

[Swamp Ghost]

30% of MI hunters kill 90% of the deer, that's not gonna change. Regardless of the weapon which does blow your anti crossbow theory out the window........its just another tool to a end.........

LOL! If you think so....


I am not interested in chaos that starts on Nov. 15th starting on Oct. 1st.

As I have said before, the least of my worries is how many deer additional deer are harvested by allowing unrestricted use of crossbows in the archery season.


Please read above

Anti-cross bow theory? Please enlighten me.......

[farmlegend]

The times are changing as much as most hate change its going to happen and no matter what you think hunter #'s are dropping

Now that's the most pleasant fact I've read in this entire thread! I figure by the time we get down to 450,000 gun hunters and 200,000 bowhunters, we'll finally have improved buck age structure brought about by simply having fewer hunters.

You're 30. You can only legally have been bow hunting since 1990. There are less bow hunters now than at any time during your entire bow hunting career.
Though it is true that there are fewer bowhunters in Michigan than there have been for a long time, there has been a substantial shift in where they choose to hunt. I submit that one who hunts in the vicinity of my farm would never imagine that there are fewer bowhunters today than in 1990. I've owned my place since '95, and there is unquestionably more bowhunting going on nowadays than there was when I bought the place. Some hunters wonder that if we were to allow unrestricted crossbow use during the archery season, just how much would this increase hunting pressure by in already over-pressured areas.

[NoWake]

Though it is true that there are fewer bowhunters in Michigan than there have been for a long time, there has been a substantial shift in where they choose to hunt. I submit that one who hunts in the vicinity of my farm would never imagine that there are fewer bowhunters today than in 1990. I've owned my place since '95, and there is unquestionably more bowhunting going on nowadays than there was when I bought the place.

What a coincidence, '95 is about the time Hillsdale county became overcrowded. :lol: J/K

[Munsterlndr]

Fine by me. But, if it's so easy why don't we have more archery hunters? Why would you even need a crossbow? Simple answer, it's one more way to dumb down deer hunting.
Archery was already "dumbed" down with the introduction of the compound bow which was legalized in Michigan in 1970. Compounds did not really start to become popular until the early 80's. In 1979, the first year that the annual deer hunter survey reports listed archery harvest numbers separately from firearms, 216,190 archers harvested 25,640 deer, which was the largest archery harvest since bow season was introduced in 1938.
Compare those numbers to 2006, where 309,140 archers harvested 125,035 deer. Between technological advances in compound design, arrow design, scent control, the wide spread increase in the use of bait and the liberal availability of licenses, archery success rates have risen to the point where they are almost the same as firearms success rates. 99% let off compounds that are now available and legal to use simply make using a vertical bow that much easier. Saying that crossbows would make it too easy, while allowing the use of all of the other technological advances that have occurred in vertical bow design is simply an absurd distinction that borders on the ridiculous.

30% of MI hunters kill 90% of the deer, that's not gonna change. Kinda reinforces my inept analogy.
Actually, 46% of hunters harvest 90% of the deer. ;)

[Swamp Ghost]

Archery was already "dumbed" down with the introduction of the compound bow which was legalized in Michigan in 1970. Compounds did not really start to become popular until the early 80's. In 1979, the first year that the annual deer hunter survey reports listed archery harvest numbers separately from firearms, 216,190 archers harvested 25,640 deer, which was the largest archery harvest since bow season was introduced in 1938.
Compare those numbers to 2006, where 309,140 archers harvested 125,035 deer. Between technological advances in compound design, arrow design, scent control, the wide spread increase in the use of bait and the liberal availability of licenses, archery success rates have risen to the point where they are almost the same as firearms success rates. 99% let off compounds that are now available and legal to use simply make using a vertical bow that much easier. Saying that crossbows would make it too easy, while allowing the use of all of the other technological advances that have occurred in vertical bow design is simply an absurd distinction that borders on the ridiculous.

Actually, 46% of hunters harvest 90% of the deer. ;)

Good points.

There are alot more deer around in 2006. More deer, bigger harvests.

With all the technological advances and the superiority of modern day archery equipment, why in the world would anyone want to use a crossbow?

Talk about bordering on the ridiculous.....

[TJO]

[quote=Swamp Ghost;2118540]

With all the technological advances and the superiority of modern day archery equipment, why in the world would anyone want to use a crossbow?

Cause its just another piece of archery equipment designed to harvest deer. Swamp if everyone was created equal and we where all the same age, strength, eye sight, and so on I would agree with you. However, we are not people have various limitations I for one am getting older my eyesight is not like it use to be I can't pull the bow like I use to, yes I still can and do but should I have to when a tool exsists that would be more practical for me and many others? Your 35 as you said someday as you get older things won't be so easy for you either I know you don't see it that way now but trust me it will happen. Please don't say get a permit cause we all know that's a joke as it stands today and really why should I have to. I would just ask that if you could have an open mind and think about it and I'm not saying you must agree but at least understand why some would like to use them.

[Riva]

Good points.

There are alot more deer around in 2006. More deer, bigger harvests.

With all the technological advances and the superiority of modern day archery equipment, why in the world would anyone want to use a crossbow?

Talk about bordering on the ridiculous.....

Hmmmm? Trumped by another hard number. What to do? Answer: Sort of agree with the other side and then quickly change the subject (see above). Actually, it's in the Strawman Manual, Chapter 4, page 36 specifically: "What to do when confronted with statistical accuracy?"

More importantly, let's talk about this technological advantage for a second. The folly in this logic is that once camp asserts that it is the technological superiority of the crossbow that gives it characteristics that are undesirable to traditional archery equipment and as such, should be banned. The other side of the same camp is now asserting that the technological advantages of the compound bow are so superior (again, read above) as to bring into question why anybody would have the need and/or desire to use a crossbow. Folks, you have got to get your stories straight; it's either less filling or it tastes great. My previous suggestion to check into a motel for the weekend to get your stories straight is still advised.

It is my position that the only people who cannot be accused of the kettle calling the teapot black are those that hunt with a longbow, without sites and in its most primitive form. Actually, I admire longbow shooters, it is truly a purist and difficultly application. If I were able, I would probably include it in my hunting repertoire. That said, I disagree with their parochial thinking as it relates to their interpretation of this particular hunting apparatus and its following as being "the one true faith".

Archery history changed the moment the very first compound bow came off the assembly line a few decades ago. From that instant, there became two camps; privative-archery and technologically advanced archery. At that moment in time, they became like two trains traveling along parallel tracks. One train is a coal-stoked rust bucket traveling along at its own slow pace, and the other is a bullet train, pulled by a locomotive of endless and ever-increasing technological horsepower. To a large degree, a crossbow is a passenger on the bullet train along with Mr. and Misses Compound. In reality, the only people who have the right to complain that the bullet train is going too fast, are those passengers riding on the rust bucket.

[skipper34]

I still stand firm in my opinion that the anti's don't want any other weapon introduced in archery season for selfish reasons, which have nothing to do with deer management. It is a simple matter of "don't shoot MY deer".

[Swamp Ghost]

Hmmmm? Trumped by another hard number. What to do? Answer: Sort of agree with the other side and then quickly change the subject (see above). Actually, it's in the Strawman Manual, Chapter 4, page 36 specifically: "What to do when confronted with statistical accuracy?"

More importantly, let's talk about this technological advantage for a second. The folly in this logic is that once camp asserts that it is the technological superiority of the crossbow that gives it characteristics that are undesirable to traditional archery equipment and as such, should be banned. The other side of the same camp is now asserting that the technological advantages of the compound bow are so superior (again, read above) as to bring into question why anybody would have the need and/or desire to use a crossbow. Folks, you have got to get your stories straight; it's either less filling or it tastes great. My previous suggestion to check into a motel for the weekend to get your stories straight is still advised.

It is my position that the only people who cannot be accused of the kettle calling the teapot black are those that hunt with a longbow, without sites and in its most primitive form. Actually, I admire longbow shooters, it is truly a purist and difficultly application. If I were able, I would probably include it in my hunting repertoire. That said, I disagree with their parochial thinking as it relates to their interpretation of this particular hunting apparatus and its following as being "the one true faith".

Archery history changed the moment the very first compound bow came off the assembly line a few decades ago. From that instant, there became two camps; privative-archery and technologically advanced archery. At that moment in time, they became like two trains traveling along parallel tracks. One train is a coal-stoked rust bucket traveling along at its own slow pace, and the other is a bullet train, pulled by a locomotive of endless and ever-increasing technological horsepower. To a large degree, a crossbow is a passenger on the bullet train along with Mr. and Misses Compound. In reality, the only people who have the right to complain that the bullet train is going too fast, are those passengers riding on the rust bucket.

Hard number? Who was giving hard numbers? Me? LOL! Believe me if I give a hard number that I want taken as fact, I will supply back-up data.

My story has been straight and unwavering. I do not want another weapon introduced into the archery season.

There are stark differences between the performance of primitive and modern archery equipment. Yet they hold the same things in common, they don't have a gun stock attached and they aren't held at a constant full draw.

Maybe the crossbow should hop on a horse and ride into the sunset of illegitimacy.

[skipper34]

"I do not want another weapon introduced into the archery season". You could have easily continued this sentence with "because I am fearful of someone with a crossbow shooting MY deer".

[beervo2]

My story has been straight and unwavering. I do not want another weapon introduced into the archery season


You forgot to say MY archery season..:lol:

[swampstand]

Yes, I understand that I am not stating "FACTS". Just my opinion which I know is worthless. LOL.

Regardless, emotion does play a part in human opinions.

Seems like everyone here wants a crossbow option. I don't for unfounded fears. Simple as that.

I am paranoid with this topic. I still think it'll be nov 15th twice if crossbows are allowed. Maybe so, maybe not.

[awshucks]

Yes, I understand that I am not stating "FACTS". Just my opinion which I know is worthless. LOL.

Regardless, emotion does play a part in human opinions.

Seems like everyone here wants a crossbow option. I don't for unfounded fears. Simple as that.

I am paranoid with this topic. I still think it'll be nov 15th twice if crossbows are allowed. Maybe so, maybe not.


Historically, in all the other states that have seen the light of reason, it's been "maybe not" Relax.

[Swamp Ghost]

"I do not want another weapon introduced into the archery season". You could have easily continued this sentence with "because I am fearful of someone with a crossbow shooting MY deer".

Why would I be fearful of that? According to some proponents crossbow users will have little to no effect on harvest numbers.



Wisconsin allows hunters over 60 to use crossbows during the regular archery season. Since that rule change was enacted 3 years ago, it has had no noticeable impact on harvest numbers.



Here's a few facts from last deer season in Arkansas. We took 165,663 deer total. Of that, the vert crowd got 10,614. xbows got 4,608. we've had the xbows for a LONG time, unrestricted. I got one, lol, but could have tagged 4, not counting extra urban tags. All's well in Ar!

Yet others have touted it's effectiveness at managing MI's overpopulated deer herd.

I could go on and on pointing out the contradictory statements made by crossbow proponents.

I would have a lot more respect for their reasoning if they would just come out and say, "We want to legalize crossbows because they are easier to use than bows".

[Swamp Ghost]

Historically, in all the other states that have seen the light of reason, it's been "maybe not" Relax.

It appears that your state and all these "other" states can't hold a candle to MI when it comes to hunter numbers.

We have the most bowhunters in the country as it is. More people hunt with a bow in this state than 90% of the "other" states do with a gun.

[skipper34]

My reasoning behind my post has nothing to do with harvest numbers, but everything to do with the fact that your fear comes from the fact that you are selfish and do not want to see another hunter in the same area as you let alone with a crossbow. This fear stems from someone else harvesting YOUR deer. Just like you stated in an earlier post, you fear too many hunters, like NOVEMBER 15, remember? More hunters equates to more of a chance to take YOUR deer, hence your unfounded fear of crossbows.

[Swamp Ghost]

My reasoning behind my post has nothing to do with harvest numbers, but everything to do with the fact that your fear comes from the fact that you are selfish and do not want to see another hunter in the same area as you let alone with a crossbow. This fear stems from someone else harvesting YOUR deer. Just like you stated in an earlier post, you fear too many hunters, like NOVEMBER 15, remember? More hunters equates to more of a chance to take YOUR deer, hence your unfounded fear of crossbows.

Skipper, sorry but you are wrong. I could care less if the harvest is doubled. I want more people to kill more of my DEER because doe's make up 99% of MY harvests.

I'm the selfish one? Am I the one that wants an inherently easier weapon to use legalized?

[skipper34]

If you are a bowhunter, which I assume that you are, you then must be using either a longbow or a recurve. If that is the case, then perhaps you should scorn those who are using an "inherently easier weapon" by using a compound bow. If you indeed use a compound bow, then you have absolutely no complaint about an "inherently easier weapon". This is hypocrisy at its finest.

[Munsterlndr]

I'm the selfish one? Am I the one that wants an inherently easier weapon to use legalized?

Somewhat hypocritical point of view coming from someone who chooses to take the "easy" way out when it comes to bow hunting. Your argument might have a tad more credibility if you hunted with a yew longbow with cedar arrows, as Ishi did. However, given your list of equipment it seems somewhat disingenious when you imply that you are doing things the hard way. ;)


'03 UltraTec 32" w/ Winner's Choice Strings and Cables
Muzzy ZE
VBG Pendulum
Fuse Stabilizer w/ Hi-Tek Mini V-Bar
GT 75/95
NAP Spitfire 100's
Tru-Fire Tornado release

[Tom (mich)]

It's always entertaining when people start bringing data to a debate that will always be an emotional one. In the end, this has always been, and always will be, a debate about whether a crossbow is an "archery" weapon, and not its impact on the herd or numbers of hunters in the woods.

Crossbow proponents will maintain that the weapon shoots arrows/bolts that are propelled by a string and, as such, qualify as an archery weapon. Facts supporting this position are that the crossbow and modern compound bows are very similar in terms of velocity and effective range, hence the consistent harvest data in other states that allow crossbows during the archery season.

Crossbow opponents will maintain that the very essence of archery hunting is drawing and holding the bow when the quarry comes in range. For example, "the deer entered the clearing, I raised my weapon and rested the stock firmly on my shoulder, and pulled the trigger". Crossbow or gun - who knows? Harvest data, and experiences from other states, are not relevant to this group, because the argument, albeit emotional, is that the crossbow doesn't meet the definition of an archery weapon.

So, in the end, it all depends on what camp you're in. Debating this emotional argument with data is a no-win game.

[swampbuck]

Originally Posted by Swamp Ghost
'03 UltraTec 32" w/ Winner's Choice Strings and Cables
Muzzy ZE
VBG Pendulum
Fuse Stabilizer w/ Hi-Tek Mini V-Bar
GT 75/95
NAP Spitfire 100's
Tru-Fire Tornado release

FROM MICHIGAN LAW

(3) "Bow" means a device for propelling an arrow from a string drawn, held, and released by hand where the force used to hold the string in the drawn position is provided by the archer's muscles.

http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusmi324_40101-40119.htm


drawn held and released by hand ! Does your trufire tornado trigger meet that definition?

[Munsterlndr]

So, in the end, it all depends on what camp you're in. Debating this emotional argument with data is a no-win game.

At the end of the day, the emotional aspects of the discussion become meaningless. We are charged with managing game in Michigan on a scientific basis. The only significant question that should be considered when considering the allocation of seasons for different weapons is what will the impact be on the resource. This is a question that cannot be answered by emotions but must be addressed with factual data. When all of the data is considered, the overwhelming likelihood is that there would be no negative impact on the resource if crossbows were either introduced into archery season or had a lengthened stand-alone season. Opponents realize this fact which is why they fall back on the intangible, emotional arguments to try and legitimize their opposition to crossbows.

[Erik]

At the end of the day, the emotional aspects of the discussion become meaningless. We are charged with managing game in Michigan on a scientific basis. The only significant question that should be considered when considering the allocation of seasons for different weapons is what will the impact be on the resource. This is a question that cannot be answered by emotions but must be addressed with factual data. When all of the data is considered, the overwhelming likelihood is that there would be no negative impact on the resource if crossbows were either introduced into archery season or had a lengthened stand-alone season. Opponents realize this fact which is why they fall back on the intangible, emotional arguments to try and legitimize their opposition to crossbows.


Actually I see plenty of emotional arguments being supplied on both sides of this issue. While some may seem hard to understand I don't believe all are totally meaningless. The ones that turn me off are the ones that personally attack the integrity of others. Those types of responses I believe to be useless and counterproductive. Therefore meaningless in my opinion.

As much as some would argue otherwise, the crossbow is a different type of weapon than a conventional bow. So where do we draw the line? The impact on the resource is only one factor to consider. The quality of the hunting experience is no less important, and needs also to be addressed when considering these issues.

[awshucks]

Actually I see plenty of emotional arguments being supplied on both sides of this issue. While some may seem hard to understand I don't believe all are totally meaningless. The ones that turn me off are the ones that personally attack the integrity of others. Those types of responses I believe to be useless and counterproductive. Therefore meaningless in my opinion.

As much as some would argue otherwise, the crossbow is a different type of weapon than a conventional bow. So where do we draw the line? The impact on the resource is only one factor to consider. The quality of the hunting experience is no less important, and needs also to be addressed when considering these issues.

What is your definition of "a conventional bow"?? Stick and string, or latest greatest compound? As far as the quality of your hunting experience, what does it matter which bow an archer uses to fill his tags a 1/4 mile or so away from you? Btw, no sarcasm intended here, just curious. Archery has changed more in our lifetimes than it has in the last 10,000 years. I stated data in a previous post that Ar took 165,663 deer last season, 10,164 by vert crowd, and 4,608 by xbow, which has been legal here for 30 yrs. Don't you guys think if there was some magical advantage or they were "easier" that the stats would be somewhat different in our 5 month season? Rounded off, that's 15,000 by bow and 150,000 by gun.

[One Eye]

Are you quoting this based on a presumption that New Jersey is "like" Michigan????????????????? :confused::confused:

Good luck with that analogy. I can show you surveys where people in others states like to gun hunt during the pre rut too. Perhaps we should explore that here also.
Dan

[Swamp Ghost]

Somewhat hypocritical point of view coming from someone who chooses to take the "easy" way out when it comes to bow hunting. Your argument might have a tad more credibility if you hunted with a yew longbow with cedar arrows, as Ishi did. However, given your list of equipment it seems somewhat disingenious when you imply that you are doing things the hard way. ;)

Anytime a crossbow proponent wants to come over and draw my 82# compound bow or any compound bow for that matter, hold it for 5-10 seconds then make an accurate shot. Then either use one of three steps to draw their's http://www.huntersfriend.com/crossbows/crossbow-cocking-considerations.htm
and say with an honest face that a compound bow is takin' the easy way out is a real good liar.

[Tom (mich)]

When all of the data is considered, the overwhelming likelihood is that there would be no negative impact on the resource if crossbows were either introduced into archery season or had a lengthened stand-alone season.
By your own admission, crossbows would have little or no impact on overall harvest rates, so the scientific evidence becomes negligible. I happen to agree with you 100% on this point and, for this very reason, this leaves this debate as an emotional one. The "data" and "facts" suggest the impact is minimal, so all that's left is emotion.

[Swamp Ghost]

By your own admission, crossbows would have little or no impact on overall harvest rates, so the scientific evidence becomes negligible. I happen to agree with you 100% on this point and, for this very reason, this leaves this debate as an emotional one. The "data" and "facts" suggest the impact is minimal, so all that's left is emotion.


Exactly.

[wally-eye]

I don't think I'll play God today so I'll just say that crossbows will not negatively affect the archery season and should be allowed without restriction.

[Munsterlndr]

By your own admission, crossbows would have little or no impact on overall harvest rates, so the scientific evidence becomes negligible. I happen to agree with you 100% on this point and, for this very reason, this leaves this debate as an emotional one. The "data" and "facts" suggest the impact is minimal, so all that's left is emotion.
On the contrary, the fact that the impact would be minimal is highly relevant. If, on the other hand, the data from all of the other states that have liberalized crossbows, indicated that it would have a significant impact on the resource, then there would be a legitimate concern for not expanding their use. The fact that all of the data points to the impact being negligible is highly relevant. By the way, when I say a negligible impact, I'm talking about it not having a negative impact on the resource, which is the primary concern. This does not mean, however that there would not be some positive impacts on the herd that should be taken into consideration. More deer would be harvested. With our chronic over-population issue, even if it is only 30,000 more deer or so, every little bit helps. A higher percentage of deer would be harvested earlier, too, which translates into more available food for the rest of the herd, which in turn has a positive biological impact on the remaining component of the herd.

[Munsterlndr]

Anytime a crossbow proponent wants to come over and draw my 82# compound bow or any compound bow for that matter, hold it for 5-10 seconds then make an accurate shot. Then either use one of three steps to draw their's http://www.huntersfriend.com/crossbows/crossbow-cocking-considerations.htm
and say with an honest face that a compound bow is takin' the easy way out is a real good liar.
So can you say with an honest face that using the technology that you have assembled on the list above does not make it significantly easier than if you were using a 60 lb. long bow with cedar arrows? Come on, let's be intellectually honest here. Modern compound technology has increased the success rate of archers by a huge amount. Who elected you to be the arbiter of what is too easy?

[Whit1]

The quality of the hunting experience is no less important, and needs also to be addressed when considering these issues.

That's a valid point Erik. Now, whose definition of a quaility hunt do we use? I contend that a quality hunt for me might be different from yours, from Swamp Ghost, from Riva, from Skipper, etc. So whose definition do we use?

In reality the application of a quality hunt is applied by the individual to themself. As long as it is using legal hunting methods each of us have a different criteria by which we judge a hunt to be a "quality hunt".

I'm sure a user of a longbow who makes their own cedar arrows feels that their "hunt" is a quality hunt. The hunter who uses more modern equipment, and the list of such equipment could be long and varied or short and simple. Whose hunt has more "quality"?

In reality it is a very individual concept which is the way it must be.

[Swamp Ghost]

On the contrary, the fact that the impact would be minimal is highly relevant. If, on the other hand, the data from all of the other states that have liberalized crossbows, indicated that it would have a significant impact on the resource, then there would be a legitimate concern for not expanding their use. The fact that all of the data points to the impact being negligible is highly relevant. By the way, when I say a negligible impact, I'm talking about it not having a negative impact on the resource, which is the primary concern. This does not mean, however that there would not be some positive impacts on the herd that should be taken into consideration. More deer would be harvested. With our chronic over-population issue, even if it is only 30,000 more deer or so, every little bit helps. A higher percentage of deer would be harvested earlier, too, which translates into more available food for the rest of the herd, which in turn has a positive biological impact on the remaining component of the herd.

Thanks for proving my point, "IF", "IF", and more "IF"

MI has proven that 750,000 gun hunters can't keep a herd under control, allowing those same hunters an earlier season will accomplish absolutely nothing.

We have plenty of hunters to get the job done, MI hunter's refuse to kill enough female deer, hence the state's over-abundant deer herd.

[Swamp Ghost]

Who elected you to be the arbiter of what is too easy?

No one. But I am not the one arguing for the legalization of a new weapon to be used in an already established season, under the guise of no inherent advantage or ease of use.

For your information, I started hunting with a recurve and I was pretty darn good with it. But after seeing my uncles shooting 2" groups at 30 yards with their compounds compared to my 6" groups. I made the switch and never looked back. I wanted to be as precise and consistent as possible.

Even with 6-8" groups at 30 yards I was not confident enough to into the woods with it to hunt deer.

The compound bow is superior technologically, I will not deny that fact, nor have I ever, but the bottom line is that the longbow, recurve and compound don't rely on a gun stock for a steady rest and locking mechanism to hold them at full draw giving the shooter a false sense of superiority.

So I guess after all this time it what I'm getting at here is that perhaps it's not the crossbow thats the problem, but the mind set that comes with it. It's the able-bodied hunter who thinks he or she can cut corners due to a "more capable weapon".

The crossbow manufactures are licking their chops at the thought of 750,000 more crossbow shooters with that mentality.........

[Munsterlndr]

Thanks for proving my point, "IF", "IF", and more "IF"

MI has proven that 750,000 gun hunters can't keep a herd under control, allowing those same hunters an earlier season will accomplish absolutely nothing.

We have plenty of hunters to get the job done, MI hunter's refuse to kill enough female deer, hence the state's over-abundant deer herd.

We only have 630,000 firearms hunters and roughly half of those are also bow hunters. The primary reason that the herd is not under control is because of our license structure that promotes antlered harvest instead of antlerless harvest. Bow hunters do the worst job of harvesting does of the three groups. Allowing greater numbers of hunters in the woods earlier in the year can only increase the number of does harvested, which would be a positive move. That's why you are going to see a September firearms season in the SLP, earlier is better in terms of culling does from the herd. Do you honestly believe that allowing crossbows during the current archery season would not result in an increase in the number of does harvested? Seriously?

[Munsterlndr]

So I guess after all this time it what I'm getting at here is that perhaps it's not the crossbow thats the problem, but the mind set that comes with it. It's the able-bodied hunter who thinks he or she can cut corners due to a "more capable weapon".

The crossbow manufactures are licking their chops at the thought of 750,000 more crossbow shooters with that mentality.........

Oh, so now the goalposts are being moved from a concern about there being too many hunters in your woods, to a concern that crossbow hunters will "cut corners"? Is this an implication that crossbow hunters (because they would mostly come from the ranks of firearms hunters) would be slob hunters? Please, give me a break.

The same canard that you are employing against crossbows can just as easily be levied against modern compounds by those that shoot long bows. You admit that you switched from a recurve to a compound because you could shoot much better groups and then accuse another group of hunters of "cutting corners"? Wow, hypocrisy is running rampant today.

I have to laugh, it took 5 pages before someone threw out the "crossbow manufactures" bogeyman. Since 300,000 of those 750,000 hunters (note that we have not had 750,000 firearms hunters in over a decade) are currently bowhunters, you must be fearing that most of them would hang up their vertical bows and buy crossbows. What would that say about their "mind set", hmmm?

It always strikes me as hilarious that anti-crossbowers accuse the crossbow makers of being this sinister force, only interested in profits and capable of imposing their will on naive hunters who really don't want a crossbow to begin with. What a joke!

Did you stop and think, maybe that Fred Bear and Roy case, the two individuals instrumental in getting a bow season established in Wisconsin and Michigan were in fact archery equipment manufacturers, who were interested in expanding their markets?

Like the manufacturers of vertical bows and firearms are not constantly bombarding hunters with the latest and greatest ( and totally unnecessary) equipment to create additional sales. I have to ask myself how we were able to manage without having the .327 Magnum as an option until just recently? Somehow it's Ok for Bowtech and Remington to push their product but when Barnett does it they are some evil, greedy corporate monster? You guys crack me up sometimes. :lol:

[skipper34]

Like you and have stated, Munster, it is hypocrisy running rampant. This is the only avenue left for the emotional anti's. It is what always happens when a deaf ear is turned on the facts.

[wildcoy73]

Swamp; I live in Belding bring your bow over and i will take you up on your offer. I for one practice holding my bow back before everyshot, so holding a modern bow back is not a problem. In fact i am a better shot with my bow freehanded than any rifle I have shot, and that also goes along with the crossbow. the weight of the weapon is out in front of you, and is not part of your body. So to myself and I am sure others the compoundbow is an easier weapon to shot.
This is like the diffrence in fishing reels, spinning reels, baitcasters, closed faced flyreels, and even the old line on a stick. They all share the same season, and in the end catch fish.
So looking at that thoose are all ways to hook a fish on a line with a hook. just like the crossbow is a way to put a broadhead into a deer to harvest said deer. Very simple to see the harvest method is the same, and very unlike that of a gun shot.

[swampbuck]

swampghost,

get used to the crossbows. It is going to happen.:D

[Kurt4253]

because the argument, albeit emotional, is that the crossbow doesn't meet the definition of an archery weapon.

What is a crossbow?

In the majority of the world the answer would be yes, they are archery equipment.

Only in the United States do you get SOME bowhunters and bowhunting organizations that don't think that. Of course they are protecting their own turf.

THE NAA - the OLDEST archery organization have recognized crossbows for about 60 years. The International Bowhunters Organization has had a crossbow division for several years AND growing every year. THE NFAA now recognizes crossbows at its VEGAS championships. Atlantic City had crossbow divisions for years, that shoot was recently acquired by the NFAA, but its crossbow division is several decades old.

The Archery Trade Association and its predecessor, the Archery Manufacturers Organization recognizes crossbows as archery equipment.

So does most retail dealers- almost every shop that sells archery equipment and guns have crossbows in the archery department, not the firearm counter. Go into Bass Pro or Cabela’s (or any other sporting goods store) and see where the crossbows are kept.

Every archery catalog I get from the retailers has crossbows in it. Bow and Arrow Magazine carries crossbow advertising.

According to the Internal Revenue Service, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and all state wildlife agencies, crossbows are archery equipment:

> Crossbows and accessories that attach to crossbows as well as crossbow arrows are defined in the Internal Revenue Code that pertains to the archery excise tax.

> The US Fish & Wildlife Service receives the archery excise tax funds - of which about 10% are from crossbows - from the IRS and allocates those dollars to the state wildlife agencies through the Pittman Robertson program.

> State wildlife agencies receive archery excise tax dollars in amounts determined by a formula that includes the number of licensed hunters (including all those who hunt with crossbows) and the area of the state.

Regardless of what we think, the government treats crossbows like archery equipment.

Why have crossbows been welcomed at NAA sanctioned shoots many years longer then the compound bow? Hmm?

A crossbow propels an arrow from the fastly forward moving string powered by a set of bent limbs. The trajectory of the arrow is VERY similar to that of an arrow launched by a compound bow. On the end of that arrow is the same broadhead that is used by any other hunting archer. That arrow kills that deer from lung collapse and blood loss.

[Kurt4253]

FROM MICHIGAN LAW

(3) "Bow" means a device for propelling an arrow from a string drawn, held, and released by hand where the force used to hold the string in the drawn position is provided by the archer's muscles.

The question is, - is this definition right in the first place. Another words, just because it was AT ONE TIME written into law, - to define the meaning of a bow for bow hunting, - does not mean that it was right.

What it means, - is that at the time it was written, there were certain people instrumental in proposing it as the defining law, - & they had there own "personal" reasoning for doing so. It also means that at the time, there was likely little or no opposition to its writing, - therefore it passed as proposed.

Keep in mind, that at one time, there were states in this country that had laws that said that African Americans had to ride in the back of the buss. That changed when a black lady by the name of Rosa Parks challenged the LAW by refusing to sit in the back of the buss.

My point is this. --- All to often our laws are proposed (&/or lobbied for) by speacial interest groups, - to serve "their own" special interest, - & they are passed because they are not met with opposition. --- That does not mean that they are right. It only means that someone got their way, - because they where not met with opposition.

Such is the case (IMO) concerning the laws that define the bow hunting bow as hand drawn & hand held.

The fact is, - laws are subject to challenge & change, - after they are written. That is what you are seeing take place here & now.

Kurt

[Swamp Ghost]

Oh, so now the goalposts are being moved from a concern about there being too many hunters in your woods, to a concern that crossbow hunters will "cut corners"? Is this an implication that crossbow hunters (because they would mostly come from the ranks of firearms hunters) would be slob hunters? Please, give me a break.

The same canard that you are employing against crossbows can just as easily be levied against modern compounds by those that shoot long bows. You admit that you switched from a recurve to a compound because you could shoot much better groups and then accuse another group of hunters of "cutting corners"? Wow, hypocrisy is running rampant today.

I have to laugh, it took 5 pages before someone threw out the "crossbow manufactures" bogeyman. Since 300,000 of those 750,000 hunters (note that we have not had 750,000 firearms hunters in over a decade) are currently bowhunters, you must be fearing that most of them would hang up their vertical bows and buy crossbows. What would that say about their "mind set", hmmm?

It always strikes me as hilarious that anti-crossbowers accuse the crossbow makers of being this sinister force, only interested in profits and capable of imposing their will on naive hunters who really don't want a crossbow to begin with. What a joke!

Did you stop and think, maybe that Fred Bear and Roy case, the two individuals instrumental in getting a bow season established in Wisconsin and Michigan were in fact archery equipment manufacturers, who were interested in expanding their markets?

Like the manufacturers of vertical bows and firearms are not constantly bombarding hunters with the latest and greatest ( and totally unnecessary) equipment to create additional sales. I have to ask myself how we were able to manage without having the .327 Magnum as an option until just recently? Somehow it's Ok for Bowtech and Remington to push their product but when Barnett does it they are some evil, greedy corporate monster? You guys crack me up sometimes. :lol:

That's right Munster, I have a multitude of concerns.

Give me a break. Have you ever worked in a big box store firearms/hunting department? I have and it's not pretty.

That's what makes the archery season, less hunters. If someone wants to enjoy archery season they have to put the time in. The Nov. 14th "Bore Sight my gun cause I'm going hunting in the morning" bunch have their season.

We got enough bowhunters that think they can buy a bow, shoot it for a day and go out hunting. I have also worked in an archery shop.

I am not willing to give them the option of extending MI's joke of a firearms season.

If you want to shallow MI's hunting gene pool further, legalize crossbows, that's a fact many are too scared to admit. The only group the crossbow is attractive to is current able-bodied firearm deer hunters who do not want to take the time to become proficient with modern day archery equipment and think that the bowhunters are killing all "THEIR" deer.

The burden is on the crossbow proponents to get them legalized, good luck, your gonna need it.

Especially when the facts supporting it's legalization say it will help with harvesting more deer to one crowd and then tell another that it's impact on deer numbers will be "negligible". Say it's simply another piece of archery equipment to be used, that there is no advantage to use one and the compound bow is superior and easier to use, then tell us how the crossbow will be a real boon to new hunter recruitment.

As I said, good luck.......

[Munsterlndr]

And finally we get to the truth of the matter. You hold firearms hunters in contempt and feel that you are somehow a "better" hunter because you choose to use a bow. Wow. Pretty amazing attitude, if you ask me. Anyone who does not do things the way you do is somehow inferior, huh? Well, your not alone in that attitude, there has always been an elitist component to bowhunters (and fly fisherman and bird hunters, as well) who look down on others who choose to do things differently. :rolleyes:

Once again, I'll have to pull out my favorite Fred Bear quote. But then again, you probably hold Fred in contempt because he occasionally hunted over bait. :yikes:

You asked how archers can improve the bowhunting picture. Archers can do that first by remembering that there are people who like to hunt with a gun, just as many of us like to hunt with the bow. Each should have the same respect providing he is as good a sportsman as anyone else. Many archers look down on the gun hunter. That is not the proper attitude. This fellow is enjoying the same sport, only he's doing it with a different weapon of his choice.
Many people get the sportsmen's fraternity against them by scowling at the business of hunting with a gun, thinking that bowhunting is the only way to hunt. That is wrong. You have to be a good sport. Fred Bear

[swampbuck]

The question is, - is this definition right in the first place. Another words, just because it was AT ONE TIME written into law, - to define the meaning of a bow for bow hunting, - does not mean that it was right.

What it means, - is that at the time it was written, there were certain people instrumental in proposing it as the defining law, - & they had there own "personal" reasoning for doing so. It also means that at the time, there was likely little or no opposition to its writing, - therefore it passed as proposed.

Keep in mind, that at one time, there were states in this country that had laws that said that African Americans had to ride in the back of the buss. That changed when a black lady by the name of Rosa Parks challenged the LAW by refusing to sit in the back of the buss.

My point is this. --- All to often our laws are proposed (&/or lobbied for) by speacial interest groups, - to serve "their own" special interest, - & they are passed because they are not met with opposition. --- That does not mean that they are right. It only means that someone got their way, - because they where not met with opposition.

Such is the case (IMO) concerning the laws that define the bow hunting bow as hand drawn & hand held.

The fact is, - laws are subject to challenge & change, - after they are written. That is what you are seeing take place here & now.

Kurt


Kurt, As far as definitions a bow and crossbow are both archery equipment. And the season is called archery season. I have been very active in getting crossbows added to ARCHERY season.

What I was refering to was this... The law decribes a bow as drawn,held and released by hand. With the use of a mechanical release(trigger) does a bow still meet the legal definition? is it even legal? The point being that with the advance of technology the lines have been blurred.

At the begining of the campaign for crossbows there was a question asked by e-mail by someone involved in the decision making proccess. He wanted to know how common the use of a mechanical trigger was amoung archery hunters. I though that was an interesting question.

[Swamp Ghost]

And finally we get to the truth of the matter. You hold firearms hunters in contempt and feel that you are somehow a "better" hunter because you choose to use a bow. Wow. Pretty amazing attitude, if you ask me. Anyone who does not do things the way you do is somehow inferior, huh? Well, your not alone in that attitude, there has always been an elitist component to bowhunters (and fly fisherman and bird hunters, as well) who look down on others who choose to do things differently. :rolleyes:



Truth according to Me? Or assumptions according to Munster?

Some of the best hunters I know hunt exclusively with a gun.

Call me an elitist if it makes you feel better, it's been done before.

I call it like I see 'em and I have encountered far more hunters that I wouldn't want hunting around me during gun season than any other.

The idea that some of these guys will be able to purchase a crossbow and extend their season 45 days is absolutely ridiculous.

They can do so right now. All they have to do is buy a bow, but they won't. Why is that?

We all know the answer but some refuse to admit the truth.

[Munsterlndr]

The truth as obvious to anyone who reads this thread. Thanks for confirming your disdain for other hunters who are legally pursuing their sport. It certainly puts your opinions into perspective. :nono:

[Swamp Ghost]

The truth as obvious to anyone who reads this thread. Thanks for confirming your disdain for other hunters who are legally pursuing their sport. It certainly puts your opinions into perspective. :nono:


Some choose to candy coat reality, nice work.

[Swamp Ghost]

Here we go again with this zealous "One True Faith" drivel. Listen, I don't have to achieve some mystical level of archery nirvana that you and the rest of your cronies have cooked up to enjoy my experience outdoors. Gimme a frick'n break!

You can go on all you want believing that you are part of some sacred order; that you are upholding a some great legacy and tradition; that you maintain a higher level of physical and spiritual essence simply by the hunting apparatus you choose to use. Again, go on thinking that way. Nobody is stopping you.

However; let's make something perfectly clear. The last time I looked, you don't own the woods. Rather, we ALL own the woods.

The last time I looked, you don't own the deer. Rather, we ALL own the deer.

And, the last time I looked, you don't own the archery season. Rather, we ALL own the archery season.

Collectively, it is a resource available to EVERYBODY and not merely for those who believe they are part of some chosen people.

At the end of the day, what we are talking about here are laws and rules. If it is determined by scientific data, and/or events of nature, that crossbow use is expanded, and the laws and rules are changed, then, like it or not, you're simply going to have to get used to it or frankly, do something else.

Zealots, cronies, nirvana. This is getting rich.

When threatened with reality throw out the Elitist Zealot card, LOL!

I hunt with a bow, slug gun and 2 styles of ML, so I guess I'm hunting's version of Jim Jones, Kool-aid anyone? :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[cadillacjethro]

I have read this post with interest and must admit it's nice to see the passion from both sides. I started bow hunting with a Darton re-curve bow and cedar shaft arrows, made for me by a fellow who worked for the DNR, who had an archery shop in his home. Everyone it seemed used Bear broad heads (sharpen before use) with razor inserts. No portable tree stands to buy. My BIL made the first portable tree stand I ever saw. Nothing Swamp Ghost uses for bow hunting would have been found in the woods because it did not exist. It's a good thing for Swamp Ghost and others that the bow hunting community adapted to change in the past or his inventory list would look drastically different.

[Kurt4253]

Originally
FROM MICHIGAN LAW

(3) "Bow" means a device for propelling an arrow from a string drawn, held, and released by hand where the force used to hold the string in the drawn position is provided by the archer's muscles.

Actually the definition goes further then just saying "drawn & released by hand" - it goes on to say, - "where the force used to hold the string in the drawn position is provided by the archer's muscles."

That is where I question the defining wording in the law as it was first writen?

Based on ALL other definitions, - a crossbow is IN FACT archery equipment, - including defining it as archery equipment by the IRS for the purpose of taxing the manufacture & sales of it.

Consequently, my question is. - How can the federal government, define crossbow, as archery equipment, collect a tax on it, distribute that tax to the Fish & Game departments of ALL 50 states, - AND, - yet allow the states to restrict the use of the crossbow as something other then archery equipment, to be used during the states archery season.

If it is defined by the federal government as archery equipment, & taxed as archery equipment, - Then it is IN FACT archery equipment - AND, - the state MUST therefore provide equal inclusive opportunity use (or as the law states, - equal protection) other wise the state has enacted a law of discriminating prejudice, based on the "special interest" of a special interest group.

Meaning, - that in fact what the state has done, - is enact a law, - that goes against something that the federal gov. recognizes as legal. - OR, - a state law that is against THE LAW.

You can not sell me something that is LEGAL, - tax me for it, - but then tell me I can not use it for the purpose it is legally defined as & taxed for.

That is what our founding fathers threw the Boston Tea Party over. --- Being taxed, - but not having representation.

Kurt

[swampbuck]

swampghost ["The burden is on the crossbow proponents to get them legalized, good luck, your gonna need it."]


Thanks for the good luck wishes! But I dont think we are going to need it as we have hard data and the bs statements made by the other side to further our cause. Which I think is going a little better than you realise.

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP, the lack of hard scientific data on the anti-crossbow side is nearly as valuable as the mountains of real data on ours.:D

[Erik]

Modern compound technology has increased the success rate of archers by a huge amount.

Sure it has. Just as modern muzzleloader technology has for the ML hunters. Should we keep letting it go this way? Or is high time we draw a line and say enough is enough? You know where I stand.
As long as the majority of hunters kill only male deer, for all practical intents and purposes, there is absolutely no possible way of any weapon having much of an effect on the resource. Other than rendering it un-balanced and difficult to control. Which in my opinion is where we are at already.
On the subject of the quality of the hunting experience, we all may have our own unique interpretations of what constitutes "quality", in terms of what style we prefer etc... But there is one factor effecting it upon which I think most all of us would/should, agree on. That is the number of confrontations we have with other users of the resource. MI can't honestly be compared to other states in this respect. We simply have more people using the resource. This is one major reason why the state has established separate seasons for different weapons.
Now before anyone jumps in here and starts to bash me for being selfish you all need to stop and be honest with yourselves. No one likes to be settled into their hunting spot and have someone walk in on them right at sunrise. Yes we all have to put up with it as it is a part of sharing, but no one likes it. And anyone who tells me differently is lying. It is nice to have separate seasons for different weapons because it reduces the number of people using the resource at the same time. Thereby creating a more quality hunt for everyone.

[Erik]

BTW...my opinions have nothing to do with me being "holier than thou" or any of the other accusations that have been leveled this way. I find comments in this regard to be offensive, emotional, off subject, and without merit. Not to mention useless and counterproductive.
If I were to make comments even remotely similar the moderators here would not hesitate to inform me about it. It seems obvious to me that there is a bias against those of us who oppose this issue by those who control this site. It saddens me to have to say that because I have always admired the administrators here. But I'm afraid it is true :(

[beervo2]

It all comes down to - I DON'T WANT CROSSBOW HUNTERS TO SHOOT MY DEER IN MY SEASON-period...
but you better get used to it because were on our way & it's going to happen!!!!!:yikes:

[wildcoy73]

A big gripe I keep seeing on this site is sharing the woods. I can not see the problem with this since over 80% of michigan hunters hunt private land. Than a large amount of us that hunt public live in southern Michigan, and with the price of gas will not beable to go out as much as we like. I will be changing the area I hunt this year, as many of you will be, so do we fight against the poor and say they can't hunt for it will be hunting your deer?
See where I am going? That is what you are telling a person that would choose to hunt with a crossbow.
We will not see much change by allowing crossbows into the woods, most will not see any effect. The few of us that may see an effect in southern Michigan will see a larger effect fromthe gas prices. and from hunters not going way up north to hunt.

I would just once see the facts why crossbows are so bad. I have looked all over and I have not been able to see one. I have found more facts to keep the modern compound out of the woods than crossbows.

[Swamp Ghost]

I have read this post with interest and must admit it's nice to see the passion from both sides. I started bow hunting with a Darton re-curve bow and cedar shaft arrows, made for me by a fellow who worked for the DNR, who had an archery shop in his home. Everyone it seemed used Bear broad heads (sharpen before use) with razor inserts. No portable tree stands to buy. My BIL made the first portable tree stand I ever saw. Nothing Swamp Ghost uses for bow hunting would have been found in the woods because it did not exist. It's a good thing for Swamp Ghost and others that the bow hunting community adapted to change in the past or his inventory list would look drastically different.

Adapted to change or took advantage of superior technology? Sorry for taking advantage of technology thats makes me much more efficient at killing deer.

I would be just as content hunting with my Bear recurve or my Bear whitetail as I am with my Hoyt Ultertec today.

Why is that some are so adamant to legalize an admitted inferior weapon to harvest deer?

I mean compounds practically shoot themselves these days so why the need for a crossbow?

I can't wait for the petitions to circulate:

We the hunters of the great state of Michigan do hereby propose to the DNR and NRC the legalization of the crossbow to be used in MI's archery season. Even though 350,000 of MI's deer hunters currently have the option to hunt the archery season with a superior weapon (the compound bow) but choose not to. We feel that allowing all hunters the use of a crossbow in the archery season will help the hunter's control the states deer herd, even though these same hunter's can't get it done with a firearm.

Regards,
The "We won't admit the truth" committee

[swampbuck]

Actually the definition goes further then just saying "drawn & released by hand" - it goes on to say, - "where the force used to hold the string in the drawn position is provided by the archer's muscles."

That is where I question the defining wording in the law as it was first writen?

Based on ALL other definitions, - a crossbow is IN FACT archery equipment, - including defining it as archery equipment by the IRS for the purpose of taxing the manufacture & sales of it.

Consequently, my question is. - How can the federal government, define crossbow, as archery equipment, collect a tax on it, distribute that tax to the Fish & Game departments of ALL 50 states, - AND, - yet allow the states to restrict the use of the crossbow as something other then archery equipment, to be used during the states archery season.

If it is defined by the federal government as archery equipment, & taxed as archery equipment, - Then it is IN FACT archery equipment - AND, - the state MUST therefore provide equal inclusive opportunity use (or as the law states, - equal protection) other wise the state has enacted a law of discriminating prejudice, based on the "special interest" of a special interest group.

Meaning, - that in fact what the state has done, - is enact a law, - that goes against something that the federal gov. recognizes as legal. - OR, - a state law that is against THE LAW.

You can not sell me something that is LEGAL, - tax me for it, - but then tell me I can not use it for the purpose it is legally defined as & taxed for.

That is what our founding fathers threw the Boston Tea Party over. --- Being taxed, - but not having representation.

Kurt


kurt, The def. posted is for a bow. The fact that a crossbow is archery equip. has already been established as demonstrated by it handicap use in archery season. WHY THEY HAVE NOT BEEN MADE LEGAL IS A GOOD QUESTION.

what are your thoughts on a release and how that effects the definition of a bow. In relation to the anti's complaint about a crossbows trigger?

[Munsterlndr]

Adapted to change or took advantage of superior technology? Sorry for taking advantage of technology thats makes me much more efficient at killing deer. You make this statement yet you would prevent others from using technology that may in their particular instance help them succeed in killing a deer. :banghead3


I would be just as content hunting with my Bear recurve or my Bear whitetail today as I am with my Hoyt Ultertec today. Yet you have the choice to use the level of technology that you desire, but would deny others from making a similar choice. :banghead3


Why is that some are so adamant to legalize an admitted inferior weapon to harvest deer?
Nobody said it was inferior, we said that it is not inherently superior. Both vertical bows and crossbows have their pluses and minuses. The better question continues to be, why would you care whether somebody else chose to hunt with either a superior or an inferior weapon? It still seems like you are hung up with people doing things your way or the highway.

I mean compounds practically shoot themselves these days so why the need for a crossbow?
Why the "need" for inline muzzleloaders? Why the "need" for scopes? Why the "need" for the heated grips on the bowtech commander that you seem to covet? (hated grips? Boy those comments about cutting corners or taking the easy way out sure spring to mind! :lol: ) Crossbows are simply another option. Hunters tend to be gear hounds. I have currently own 7 different center fire rifles capable of being used for deer hunting, why do I "need" more than one? Because I like having different options and enjoy using different weapons in different situations. You mentioned that you have at least three different bows, why do you need more than just one?

And for the record, firearms hunters are doing a better job than bowhunters are of harvesting enough deer. Maybe you just "need" a crossbow to get the job done. ;)

[cadillacjethro]

Adapted to change or took advantage of superior technology?

The history of mankind has been written adapting to superior technology. We drive on paved roadways because of the superior technology of the automobile. If you choose to use a long bow or re-curve more power to you. Some choose to use a compound and yet others would like the choice of using a cross bow. Whether you choose to admit it or not hunter numbers are going the wrong way. I don't see the doom and gloom you do. While no one can say with 100% certainty what will happen, we do have info from other states who have made the change to unrestricted cross bow use. Using these as comparable I still cannot find what you claim to be your concerns.

[Munsterlndr]

Sure it has. Just as modern muzzleloader technology has for the ML hunters. Should we keep letting it go this way? Or is high time we draw a line and say enough is enough? You know where I stand.
Why should we not let it go on this way, is the resource being threatened in some way? For pete's sake, the herd is at 1.7 million and a majority of DMU's are over population levels. Why would we say enough is enough, so that we can go back to using flint locks and wooden longbows out of some sense of tradition and see if we can get the herd up to three million in a few years? [/quote]

As long as the majority of hunters kill only male deer, for all practical intents and purposes, there is absolutely no possible way of any weapon having much of an effect on the resource. Other than rendering it un-balanced and difficult to control. Which in my opinion is where we are at already.
I don't disagree that hunters are killing too many male deer but how is limiting ones choice of weapons going to do anything but exacerbate that situation? You want more does killed, eliminate the combo license. Pretty simple. At this point the NRC/DNR are not serious enough about wanting to increase the antlerless harvest to make that move.

On the subject of the quality of the hunting experience, we all may have our own unique interpretations of what constitutes "quality", in terms of what style we prefer etc... But there is one factor effecting it upon which I think most all of us would/should, agree on. That is the number of confrontations we have with other users of the resource. MI can't honestly be compared to other states in this respect. We simply have more people using the resource. This is one major reason why the state has established separate seasons for different weapons.
Now before anyone jumps in here and starts to bash me for being selfish you all need to stop and be honest with yourselves. No one likes to be settled into their hunting spot and have someone walk in on them right at sunrise. Yes we all have to put up with it as it is a part of sharing, but no one likes it. And anyone who tells me differently is lying. It is nice to have separate seasons for different weapons because it reduces the number of people using the resource at the same time. Thereby creating a more quality hunt for everyone. The fact is that we have almost 200,000 fewer people enjoying the resource than we did a decade ago. What has changed is where people are choosing to hunt. Fewer people who live in the SLP are choosing to drive north to the NLP and the UP, where there are huge tracts of public land available and where you can hunt all day and not run into another hunter. The SLP has limited amounts of public land and if the majority of the hunters choose to congregate on that small amount of land, you are going to have a crowd. If you don't want to hunt in a crowd, then I suggest that you head North. The limited availability of public land in the SLP, though, is no reason to deny other hunters the opportunity to use the weapon of their choice, especially since the majority of them are going to be hunting on private land anyway.

You suggest that individual seasons would limit confrontations between hunters. Fine, what part of archery season do you want to cede to crossbow hunters, so that they can have an individual season and not have to share the woods with other hunters? Do you really want to go there or would it make more sense to continue to allow those 80% of archery hunters who hunt on private land to continue to hunt alongside crossbow hunters, instead of having to sacrifice a portion of their season.

[Swamp Ghost]

Ahh, the beauty of the "We won't admit the truth" committee.

Never admit the fact that the only group the crossbow is attractive to is current able-bodied firearm deer hunters who do not want to take the time to become proficient with modern day archery equipment and think that the bowhunters are killing all "THEIR" deer.

Good luck in your campaign :dizzy::lol:

[Erik]

A big gripe I keep seeing on this site is sharing the woods. I can not see the problem with this since over 80% of michigan hunters hunt private land. Than a large amount of us that hunt public live in southern Michigan, and with the price of gas will not beable to go out as much as we like. I will be changing the area I hunt this year, as many of you will be, so do we fight against the poor and say they can't hunt for it will be hunting your deer?
See where I am going? That is what you are telling a person that would choose to hunt with a crossbow.
We will not see much change by allowing crossbows into the woods, most will not see any effect. The few of us that may see an effect in southern Michigan will see a larger effect fromthe gas prices. and from hunters not going way up north to hunt.

I would just once see the facts why crossbows are so bad. I have looked all over and I have not been able to see one. I have found more facts to keep the modern compound out of the woods than crossbows.


Just because you yourself don't see the problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There is a major assumption held by many people here in regards to private land hunting. That is that if a person hunts private land they obviously never encounter other hunters, or otherwise have to share the woods with others. This is untrue. In fact there are times when I myself have to go and hunt public land in order to get away from all the hunters who share the private land I have permission to hunt. Yes believe it or not, there are times when I hunt public land and have less confrontations with other hunters than if I stayed home and hunted the private property behind my house. While some people may have exclusive rights to the lands they hunt I believe you will find that most folks don't. Even among those who hunt private land.

It all comes down to - I DON'T WANT CROSSBOW HUNTERS TO SHOOT MY DEER IN MY SEASON-period

No actually it doesn't come down to that at all. It comes down to the crossbow is not the same weapon as a conventional bow. Therefore it should be regulated separately.
Why is it different?
Can I rest my conventional bow on a log fully drawn and locked while I wait for deer to come into range? No.
Can I mount a rifle scope to my conventional bow and sight it in while resting it on a bench in a vice? No.
Can I shoot my conventional bow from a prone (laying flat on the ground) position? No.
Can I hold my conventional bow fully drawn for an unlimited amount of time while walking or resting or eating my lunch? Even if it were a 99% let off model the answer would still be, no.

Now should the crossbow have it's own season? Fine go for it. But leave the regular archery season as it is now! Theres no reason the regular archery season should be held accountable for whatever happens with a crossbow season. And that is the whole reason behind everything I've been arguing here.

[cadillacjethro]

Ahh, the beauty of the "We won't admit the truth" committee.

Never admit the fact that the only group the crossbow is attractive to is current able-bodied firearm deer hunters who do not want to take the time to become proficient with modern day archery equipment and think that the bowhunters are killing all "THEIR" deer.

Good luck in your campaign :dizzy::lol:

The truth for me is simple: I have never shot a cross bow. I would also never be so arrogant as to think I could/should tell you how to hunt.

[skipper34]

In reading these recent posts, I cannot help but come to the conclusion that those who are opposed to the crossbow, who have been posting in this thread, merely want others to follow their lead and do as they do. My number one question to them would be, why do you care if another hunter uses a different type of sporting arm? This still has not been answered. The data from surrounding states confirms that the hunter numbers will not increase dramatically if the crossbow is legalized. Would Michigan somehow be the exception to this? Have you taken a poll across the board to see if non-bowhunters, those who use a firearm for deer hunting, would all immediately take up the crossbow to use for archery hunting? Do you have any facts or data to confirm this? If so we would all like to see it. Or is this just another unfounded emotional plea to prevent legalization of a weapon that you personally do not wish to partake? So if I am correct in my assumptions by reading these posts, if you do not like it then nobody should like it?

[Kurt4253]

kurt, The def. posted is for a bow. The fact that a crossbow is archery equip. has already been established as demonstrated by it handicap use in archery season. WHY THEY HAVE NOT BEEN MADE LEGAL IS A GOOD QUESTION.

what are your thoughts on a release and how that effects the definition of a bow. In relation to the anti's complaint about a crossbows trigger?

What I think, - is that the introduction of the compound bow, in & of its self, as exceptable archery equipment, has made null & viod & moot to boot, any argument against the crossbow, - on the foundation that "the crossbow is easier."

Add to that, ALL of the technological advances, since the introduction of the compompound bow (80% & greater let off, siteing systems, carbon fiber arrows, broad head advancement & the "triger release") the "modern" compound bow may have well become an easer weapon then the crossbow.

If not easier, at the very least, the "modern" compound, most certainly has some advantages over the crossbow, - to which the triger release plays it's part in the equation. Hence, pulling the triger on a crossbow is completely irrelevant to the argument.

Kurt

[Erik]

You suggest that individual seasons would limit confrontations between hunters.

Yes I do suggest that. And whats more the MI DNR agrees with me. For this reason they established separate seasons.

Fine, what part of archery season do you want to cede to crossbow hunters, so that they can have an individual season and not have to share the woods with other hunters?

Which part of bow season would I want to cede? How about december?
And for the record, currently there is no part of the bow season that is individual and not shared with other hunters.

[skipper34]

Yes I do suggest that. And whats more the MI DNR agrees with me. For this reason they established separate seasons.



Which part of bow season would I want to cede? How about december?
And for the record, currently there is no part of the bow season that is individual and not shared with other hunters.

Just for kicks, I would like to hear the crossbow opponents' number one singlemost argument for their delegalization. This should be interesting.

[Kurt4253]

Now should the crossbow have it's own season? Fine go for it. But leave the regular archery season as it is now! Theres no reason the regular archery season should be held accountable for whatever happens with a crossbow season. And that is the whole reason behind everything I've been arguing here.

Now that sounds to me like just another way to say, - Leave MY deer & MY woods alone, - unless you are going to hunt according to MY standards.

[Erik]

What I think, - is that the introduction of the compound bow, in & of its self, as exceptable archery equipment, has made null & viod & moot to boot, any argument against the crossbow, - on the foundation that "the crossbow is easier."

Add to that, ALL of the technological advances, since the introduction of the compompound bow (80% & greater let off, siteing systems, carbon fiber arrows, broad head advancement & the "triger release") the "modern" compound bow may have well become an easer weapon then the crossbow.

If not easier, at the very least, the "modern" compound, most certainly has some advantages over the crossbow, - to which the triger release plays it's part in the equation. Hence, pulling the triger on a crossbow is completely irrelevant to the argument.

I disagree.
While a trigger may not be one of them, I have shot them both, and there are many differing factors between the compound and the crossbow. As I have pointed out in earlier posts.

[Erik]

Now that sounds to me like just another way to say, - Leave MY deer & MY woods alone, - unless you are going to hunt according to MY standards.

There you go again. Call me selfish and attack me personally.
Actually the DNR established the rules. I happen to agree with them, but it doesn't mean I'm selfish.
If I said I wanted to hunt with a shotgun during the ML season would I be out of line if I called all those who disagreed with me names? I think so. Just like I think you, and others here who continually make the statements you just made to me are out of line. Maybe you all are the ones being selfish? Did you ever think about that? After all you guys are the ones trying to change the rules to suit your desires.
At any rate you should at least get to know me better before you accuse me of being selfish.

And for the record what I meant when I said
"Theres no reason the regular archery season should be held accountable for whatever happens with a crossbow season."
is the current bow season should not be shortened, or bag limits be changed due to the establishment of a crossbow season.
Just like the firearm and ML seasons and limits are not effected by laws that pertain to archery season.

[wildcoy73]

Ahh, the beauty of the "We won't admit the truth" committee.

Never admit the fact that the only group the crossbow is attractive to is current able-bodied firearm deer hunters who do not want to take the time to become proficient with modern day archery equipment and think that the bowhunters are killing all "THEIR" deer.

Good luck in your campaign :dizzy::lol:

Truth be told, I am for the crossbow, and i will not be using one, My main reason for the crossbow is the youth. Look at my threads and you will see that. If this brings a few gun hunters with it, than that is a price i am willing to pay. I should have a choice of what i hunt with during archery season. I have that choice during gun. so why not during archery season?

[wildcoy73]

Scopes on bows; well back in the 80s i had a 2 power scope on my bow.
now it is 2000 and i have a red dot scope on my bow. So yes I can scope out my bow. infact my dads crossbow has the same red dot on it. so no advatage.

As for rest yes the cross bow has one, but wait a minute I can get one that straps to my arm and use it while bow hunting. this is a pretty nice item and has been in use for sevral years. Cost about 70 bucks but it does give you a solid platform to shot from.
shooting while laying down, can be done with a bow and has been done to taken many of the game out there.
so i can not walk around with my bow at full draw, but than again i would not be walking around the woods with the crossbow on my should. so by the time you shouldered the cross bow, I would have my compound at full draw and sighted in on the deer. just about the same movement needed to do this.
Well Erik looks like every reason you gave me for not allowing crossbows have been blown out of the woods. guess we will need to see what the next round brings up.
I will always prefer bow hunting over all other type of hunting, but i will never limit my fellow sportsmen the right to enjoy the woods. Crossbows will be in our future, and I hope with us pulling together it will be for the 2008 season, and in time for the youth hunt.

[Kurt4253]

Erick

You wrote: - "Actually the DNR established the rules.

Actually, that's not true!!! Guys like Fred Bear, Pope & Young & others that advocated for a stand alone archery season wrote the rules. They became what they are because "back in that day" there was little or no interest in the crossbow, - therefore there was no pro xbow advocates to oppose what was written &/or how it was written. That has now changed.

Concerning calling you names (selfish) in no way have I done such. --- I simply stated how what you said sounds.

Also, I have been bow hunting for 37 years now. 30 of those years I hunted with NOTHING but a recurve bow. The last 7 years I have been hunting with a crossbow as a result of being qualified for disabled permit due to loosing half my thumb half my middle finger & severe nerve & tendon damage to my index finger on my draw hand from a table saw accident.

Another words I am not some wana be bow hunter that wants xbow legal just so I can get in on the early season "the easy way"

The FACT is, - that HUNTING with my Xbow is IN FACT no easier then when I hunted with a recurve. I still have to wait for the deer to come with in the same range. The shot MUST be just as absolutely clear of obstruction. AND I MUST put exactly the same skills to work to get & take that shot.

NOTHING HAS CHANGED!!! Bow HUNTING wether it be with crossbow, or other bow, is FAR more about you SKILL as a hunter, - then it about the equipment you are using.--- If you don't have the SKILL to set up & make the shot happen you are going to go home hungry, - regardless of the equipment you take to the woods. Thats why its called hunting & not shopping.

One more thing. - The FIRST bow I ever shot, was my moms 35# LONG bow. It took me all of about 3 hours to get good enough to hit a pie plate at 20 yards. (which is all you need to do to hit a deer in the vitals) On the other hand, it took me a couple years to get to be a good enough HUNTER to set up the situation to get & take a shot at a deer.

Kurt

[skipper34]

I would never own or hunt with a crossbow. I am arguing for them because I feel that it is my responsibility as a sportsman to do so. Some individuals, for whatever reason which is beside the point, would like to use crossbows during archery season. They should be given that chance.

[Riva]

Despite one's personal opinions, pro or con, the survey indicates a >70% favorable attitude regarding crossbow by every group and subset. That speaks volumes.

Is that a enough reason to approve the unrestricted use of crossbows? The answer is no. It simply indicates that the a majority of people think favorably about them, however; this is one of the first questions researchers have to ask when in considering making a change of this scope. A 70% plurality merely gives you the green light to go to the next steps .

Look at it this way, if the reverse statistic was true and there was >70% of the people did not want crossbows, this issue of unrestricted use would not even come up for debate. But, as we can see, that is clearly not the case.

So, you now go about objectively examining all the other issues with, at a minimum, the foreknowledge of how the constituency feels on the matters. There may indeed be issues that override the fact that 70% have a favorable attitude surrounding crossbows. But, if there are, those issues must now be based on hard data and hard facts and presented within the scope of optimally managing the resource and providing optimum hunter opportunity.

Again, you've already been asked the big question and, the answer puts some people in the 30% bucket. Now, if you don't want the 70% people to get their way, you had better argue the point based on the criteria I just described; managing the resource and hunter opportunity. Stuff like "it's not a quality experience" or, it's not how our forefathers wanted it" or, 'it's too easy" will, in my opinion, not be enough to move the needle because all that crap is already in the 30% bucket.

Frankly, I think the only way the 30% group can prevail is to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that unrestricted crossbow use will have a profoundly negative impact on the resource. That, is what they must do.

[beervo2]

All we are asking for is Freedom Of Choice during archery season, you have your FOC ( recurves-compounds-long bows) during archery sea. why can't we have ours (xbows)...:confused:

Nobody on here yet has shown any data as to why the crossbow should not be included in (your) archery season, quit basing it on your beliefs and emotions and show us some facts!!!! FOC on crossbows....

[Swamp Ghost]

Frankly, I think the only way the 30% group can prevail is to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that unrestricted crossbow use will have a profoundly negative impact on the resource in New Jersey.....That, is what they must do.

Have fun gettin the same results in MI........:evil:

[Swamp Ghost]

All we are asking for is Freedom Of Choice during archery season, you have your FOC ( recurves-compounds-long bows) during archery sea. why can't we have ours (xbows)...:confused:

Nobody on here yet has shown any data as to why the crossbow should not be included in our (your) archery season, quit basing it on your beliefs and emotions and show us some facts!!!! FOC on crossbows....

Ours? Who is "Ours"? LOL! Finally........:lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

Note to the x-bow crowd, please consult the MI DMU's that had antler restriction proposals in place about the 66% rule.........:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Kurt4253]

Hi All

There are a couple of things that have come up from those opposed to the inclusion crossbow that I would like to address.

First is this; - "the only group the crossbow is attractive to is current able-bodied firearm deer hunters who do not want to take the time to become proficient with modern day archery equipment"

Actually this is not true at all !!! --- Take a good look at the NJ survey, & you will see that OVER 70% of the people that responded to that survey were IN FACT bow hunters.This has also been true with other surveys. In fact, most everyone, if not everyone I know that advocates for the inclusion of the crossbow, - Like my self, - is/was IN THE FIRST PLACE a vertical archer. The reason we have become advocates for the crossbow is that as the result of physical impairment (age &/or accident) we have had to take up the crossbow, in order to stay in the game we love.

Consequently, - as a result of HUNTING experience with BOTH vertical bow & crossbow, - we know FOR A FACT, - that there is NO GREAT advantage to HUNTING with a crossbow, - & that IN FACT there are some very real disadvantages to HUNTING with the crossbow.

Therefore, - as vertical archers in the FIRST PLACE, - we see no justifiable reason why we, - or anyone else for that matter should have to jump through restrictive hoops that cost both additional time & money to pick up your crossbow, - take to the woods & go hunting.

IF, - there was some GREAT advantage to hunting with the crossbow, - it would be a different story. But there is not a GREAT advantage!!! So why should I, - or anyone else, - have to take a day off work (= lost wages) AND pay a doctor to have him say, - "yes yo can hunt with a crossbow"???

Why should I have to spend an additional $300.00 (lost wages + doc. visit) to be given the green light to use a piece of archery equipment that has NO GREAT advantage, - & in FACT has some disadvantages???

THE FACT IS, - most every pro crossbow advocate is & has been a vertical archer. Few if any are gun hunters, that want the crossbow included, just so they can get in on the early season the so called "easy way"

Kurt

[Hungry Wolf]

It all comes down to - I DON'T WANT CROSSBOW HUNTERS TO SHOOT MY DEER IN MY SEASON-period...
but you better get used to it because were on our way & it's going to happen!!!!!:yikes:

I still stand firm in my opinion that the anti's don't want any other weapon introduced in archery season for selfish reasons, which have nothing to do with deer management. It is a simple matter of "don't shoot MY deer".

You guys keeps saying that OVER AND OVER... You really sound like a broken record!

Let me set the record straight- I am not selfish! I WANT more hunters in the woods! I know that those are not my deer!

I've darn near picked up a kid and thrown them in the woods! What have YOU done besides try to force xbows down our throats! "Oh look kids a new toy! Think ya want to go hunting now?" Keep running with that carrot on a string...

Whats funny is that anyone who actually knows me and listens to you label me in such a manner will quickly come to one of two conclusions:

1. You don't know what you are talking about.
-OR-
2. You are a liar.

You are calling people names based on one opinion they share- Thats a pretty big blanket there cowboy...

[Kurt4253]

I support disabled bowhunters.
I will share 'my' woods.
I know that crossbows are not computer controlled missle launchers.
I know that those are not 'my' deer.
I'm not a 'selfish' person.
Hate me if you will... NO UNRESTRICTED XBOW.

Hundry Wolf

If the above is true, - then why are you against unrestricted use of crossbow???

[Swamp Ghost]

Hi All

There are a couple of things that have come up from those opposed to the inclusion crossbow that I would like to address.

First is this; - "the only group the crossbow is attractive to is current able-bodied firearm deer hunters who do not want to take the time to become proficient with modern day archery equipment"

Actually this is not true at all !!! --- Take a good look at the NJ survey, & you will see that OVER 70% of the people that responded to that survey were IN FACT bow hunters.This has also been true with other surveys. In fact, most everyone, if not everyone I know that advocates for the inclusion of the crossbow, - Like my self, - is/was IN THE FIRST PLACE a vertical archer. The reason we have become advocates for the crossbow is that as the result of physical impairment (age &/or accident) we have had to take up the crossbow, in order to stay in the game we love.

Consequently, - as a result of HUNTING experience with BOTH vertical bow & crossbow, - we know FOR A FACT, - that there is NO GREAT advantage to HUNTING with a crossbow, - & that IN FACT there are some very real disadvantages to HUNTING with the crossbow.

Therefore, - as vertical archers in the FIRST PLACE, - we see no justifiable reason why we, - or anyone else for that matter should have to jump through restrictive hoops that cost both additional time & money to pick up your crossbow, - take to the woods & go hunting.

IF, - there was some GREAT advantage to hunting with the crossbow, - it would be a different story. But there is not a GREAT advantage!!! So why should I, - or anyone else, - have to take a day off work (= lost wages) AND pay a doctor to have him say, - "yes yo can hunt with a crossbow"???

Why should I have to spend an additional $300.00 (lost wages + doc. visit) to be given the green light to use a piece of archery equipment that has NO GREAT advantage, - & in FACT has some disadvantages???

THE FACT IS, - most every pro crossbow advocate is & has been a vertical archer. Few if any are gun hunters, that want the crossbow included, just so they can get in on the early season the so called "easy way"

Kurt

Spin Doctor Alert!

I am not talking about letting folks use a crossbow to deer hunt. I am talking about unrestricted crossbow use in the archery season.

The numbers being thrown around here are a joke.

Supporters of Crossbows were asked in which deer season(s) should Crossbow use be allowed. The selection “all bow seasons” was preferred (54%) by all respondents. The second most popular choice of all respondents was “all deer seasons” (24%).


So 54% of the 70% of respondents who are Supporters of Crossbows would like to see crossbows used in archery season.

So in fact 38% of crossbow supporters would like to see crossbows in the archery season. The other 62% of supporters and non-supporters of crossbows wouldn't.

Am I right?

Thanks for the survey, pretty enlightening.

[Kurt4253]

So 54% of the 70% of respondents who are Supporters of Crossbows would like to see crossbows used in archery season.

Am I right?

No you are not right. - Its not 54% of the 70% - It is 54% of ALL respondence. Another words 54% of 100%

Look at the survey results again.

54% of EVERYONE that responded said crossbow should be allowed in the archery season

In ADDITION to that another 24% thought it should be allowed in ALL seasons, - which would include archery season

So, -78% thought it should be allowed durring archery season

AND keep in mind that OVER 70% of those that responded to the survey said that they were CURRENTLY bow hunters.

Kurt

[Whit1]

Okay guys and gals let's get off the "name-calling" and what is worse the taking of a statement/comment personally.

Just to refresh eveyone's memory anticrossbow posts have referred to those who support crossbows as "lazy" and they have a need to "man-up". The pro-crossbow side has used the phrase "selfish". Both sides have used the word "liar" (or it's connotation) in describing their "opponents".

In short, it's a wash as far as that stuff goes.

The saddest part about this issue is that it puts those who should be united in their support of hunting at strict odds with each other. HSUS, PETA and other animal rights/anti-hunting groups have got to love this. Bowhunting is a designated target and we're at the center of the bulls-eye and yet we do set ourselves up on one side or the other and fling well aimed arrows at each other while the enemy creeps upon the gates. :sad: :rolleyes: :confused: :sad:

[Swamp Ghost]

No you are not right. - Its not 54% of the 70% - It is 54% of ALL respondence. Another words 54% of 100%

Look at the survey results again.

54% of EVERYONE that responded said crossbow should be allowed in the archery season

In ADDITION to that another 24% thought it should be allowed in ALL seasons, - which would include archery season

So, -78% thought it should be allowed durring archery season

AND keep in mind that OVER 70% of those that responded to the survey said that they were CURRENTLY bow hunters.

Kurt

Sorry but as I read the survey, and I quote Supporters of Crossbows were asked in which deer season(s) should Crossbow use be allowed.

Their language not mine. So as it reads, it's 54% of all the crossbow supportive respondents.

Thanks again.

[Hungry Wolf]

I support disabled bowhunters.
I will share 'my' woods.
I know that crossbows are not computer controlled missle launchers.
I know that those are not 'my' deer.
I'm not a 'selfish' person.
Hate me if you will... NO UNRESTRICTED XBOW.

Hundry Wolf

If the above is true, - then why are you against unrestricted use of crossbow???

I am against unrestricted use in archery season.

I see an inherent difference between the crossbow and compounds (recurve/longbow)... I know they both have their respective advantages and disadvantages but I don't see them as equal.

I have made several posts in the past detailing my viewpoint:

This is my opinion

1. One of the things that makes archery challenging to me is the necessity of having game in close range, and the ability to draw and hold until a clean shot presents itself. Sometimes this seems too easy and yet at other times I wonder how I ever managed to kill a deer at all... I'm sure many of you have been stuck at full draw while you engage in a stare down with a whitetail, or waiting for the deer to clear that one branch you should have cut out of your shooting lane. How many times have you not gotten a shot because the deer never gave you a chance to draw your bow without being seen? How many of you been busted drawing only to have the deer bound out of range?

Does it always work out like this? No. Like I said- sometimes its easy... Sometimes I could have been dancing a friggin jig up in the tree and still made a kill. But not always. In fact hardley ever. And to me- that is a BIG part of the challenge. That is what makes bowhunting special to me- It takes an extra degree of woodsmanship and skill. I'm not saying that crossbows don't have their own inherent challenges but I don't find them equal.


I am all for accomodations for those who otherwise could not enjoy the woods from Oct. 1 - Nov. 14. I have to leave it to the others to figure out just who that might be. I know my opinion on here is not a popular one but I've followed this thread (and others) and felt like expressing my opinion. Its also why MBH will continue to get my dues money even though I wouldn't mind loosening the criteria for a CB permit for those who trully need it. (as well as not agreeing with them on a few other issues.)


2. In the simplest terms- Having to draw in the presence of the animal... And in some cases hold for extended periods in order to get your shot or not spook the animal. I know with 80% let off that you may be able to hold longer but not forever so this might be where we have to disagree.

Based on what I know (could be wrong)- I make no distinction between a crossbow and modern compounds in terms of performance. My 'crackerized' trykon is well over 300fps. and I personally make no claim that crossbows have an advantage in terms of speed or effective range. (Although others, who may or may not be more knowledgable that myself do make that argument)

I do agree with you about the degree of challenge when shooting traditional archery equipment. I do occassionally hunt with my old Herters Recurve and there is no argument that it is more of a challenge to harvest a deer - Especially with a self-imposed range of >20yds.

But lets take your hunting from the ground example. Especially if you were not sitting in one of those 'pop-up' type blinds- Can you not envision the HUGE advantage a crossbow has over any type of archery equipment that must be drawn and held with the deer within shooting range?

I know some will say I'm splitting hairs here but I see it as enough of an issue to make the distinction and form my opinion.

FOR THE RECORD- in response to these viewpoints I've heard nothing but "Oh its not that big of a deal." "Crossbows are heavy!" "Drawing in the presence of the deer in not hard" -- Talk about factless emotion... :dizzy:

I have no problem with the crossbow in and of itself... I just don't think it belongs unrestricted in archery season. Just because it won't hurt does not justify its existince in archery season in my opinion. Thats it, just my opinion- I just don't see how some members on here can take one opinion and make blanket statements about me... For the record- I'm a big boy and I'm not crying about name calling :gaga:- I just thought it was funny how everyone keeps talking about facts and hard data and out of the same camp comes all this childish name calling- Most of you guys should keep quiet and let RIVA do all your talking for you; You'd probably get a lot further... Which I suspect you will regardless of your posts. I suspect I will see unrestricted xbow use in the near future. But like my Dad taught me- Just because its popular doesn't make it right... JUST MY .02

I hope everyone has a great hunting season this year!

[Kurt4253]

Okay guys and gals let's get off the "name-calling" and what is worse the taking of a statement/comment personally.

Just to refresh eveyone's memory anticrossbow posts have referred to those who support crossbows as "lazy" and they have a need to "man-up". The pro-crossbow side has used the phrase "selfish". Both sides have used the word "liar" (or it's connotation) in describing their "opponents".

In short, it's a wash as far as that stuff goes.

The saddest part about this issue is that it puts those who should be united in their support of hunting at strict odds with each other. HSUS, PETA and other animal rights/anti-hunting groups have got to love this. Bowhunting is a designated target and we're at the center of the bulls-eye and yet we do set ourselves up on one side or the other and fling well aimed arrows at each other while the enemy creeps upon the gates. :sad: :rolleyes: :confused: :sad:

AGREED

The one that realy gets under my skin is being called "a wana be bow hunter"

The fact is, - the VAST majority of pro crossbow advocates are in fact vertical bow hunters. --- That is a provable fact.

Kurt

[Swamp Ghost]

The most telling thing in this entire survey is this Respondents were asked how likely they were to hunt with a crossbow now, if legalized. The majority of all respondents (60%) will likely use a crossbow.

► When broken down by user group, the majority of hunters still agree they will use a crossbow now: bow & gun hunters, 62%; gun-only hunters, 59%; bow-only hunters, 54%


For an inferior weapon that has no advantage over a compound bow you sure do have a lot of guys that are clamoring to use one. I mean 54% of bow-only hunters in New Jersey are willing to shelve their bows for one........

It speaks volumes.................

[Whit1]

I do occassionally hunt with my old Herters Recurve


My first bow, a Christmas present from my parents in 1959 was also a Herter's recurve. I sold it in 1965 to get money to travel from Kalamazoo (WMU) to Marquette where my girlfriend....now my wife...attended NMU.

[michigandeerslayer]

My first bow, a Christmas present from my parents in 1959 was also a Herter's recurve. I sold it in 1965 to get money to travel from Kalamazoo (WMU) to Marquette where my girlfriend....now my wife...attended NMU.

Sounds like a wise sale

[NoWake]

My first bow, a Christmas present from my parents in 1959 was also a Herter's recurve. I sold it in 1965 to get money to travel from Kalamazoo (WMU) to Marquette where my girlfriend....now my wife...attended NMU.

Wow, I bet it was pretty rare for an adult to go back to college in those days. Did you get picked on by all the normal aged college students? :evil:

[Kurt4253]

The most telling thing in this entire survey is this

For an inferior weapon that has no advantage over a compound bow you sure do have a lot of guys that are clamoring to use one. I mean 54% of bow-only hunters in New Jersey are willing to shelve their bows for one........

It speaks volumes.................

Ya, & 35 years (plus or minus) ago, when the compound bow was introduced most bow hunters shelved the recurves & long bows.

Hmmmmm

So whats your point???

Kurt

[Whit1]

Wow, I bet it was pretty rare for an adult to go back to college in those days. Did you get picked on by all the normal aged college students? :evil:


Didn't the Supreme Court, many years ago, ban "cruel and unusual punishment"????..........:lol:

[Kurt4253]

Spin Doctor Alert!

I am not talking about letting folks use a crossbow to deer hunt. I am talking about unrestricted crossbow use in the archery season.

The numbers being thrown around here are a joke.

So 54% of the 70% of respondents who are Supporters of Crossbows would like to see crossbows used in archery season.

So in fact 38% of crossbow supporters would like to see crossbows in the archery season. The other 62% of supporters and non-supporters of crossbows wouldn't.

Am I right?

Thanks for the survey, pretty enlightening.



OK, you are right. That question was asked of respondents who are Supporters of Crossbows.

However, - you are still wrong in your figures. For one thing, you forgot the 24% that said ALL seasons, - which includes all of bow season.

Here are the "hard" numbers.

1,047 total people answered the survey. - Lets round that up to an even number of 1,048 (which gives you the advantage by one person)

50% of that is 524

402 said All Bow Seasons
176 said All seasons (which includes all bow seasons)

That = 578 people that said All Bow seasons, - with some thinking it should also be included in the different gun seasons.

578 is greater then 524 meaning that more then 50% of ALL the people that responed to the survey thought it should be included in ALL bow seasons.

Also, - keep in mind that 780 of them (or about 74%) said they where Bow Hunters.

So the HARD facts are still that bow hunters where the majority that answered the survey. The majority (wether bow hunters or not) supported the use of crossbow. And the majority (wether bow hunters or not) support it for ALL bow season.

So who is spining what???

Kurt

[Swamp Ghost]

Keep it spinning. LOL!

[Kurt4253]

Keep it spinning. LOL!

No spin, - just facts!!!

[Moonkryket]

for all hunting seasons several years ago has been a resounding success. No traditional long bow, recurve, or even compound bow hunters I've talked to have been affected in any way by bowhunters with crossbows during THEIR season. The positive effects are that additional financial support is coming in each year for our game and fishery dept, more older bowhunters can keep bowhunting that would otherwise be impossible or at least a big hassle trying to get a handicap license and sporting goods dealers are seeing additional business. I wish I could be a fly on the wall to watch some of you anti-crossbow folks when you get older and can't draw a hunting weight bow anymore. If you live long enough it will likely happen. I guess you'll just sit at home during bow season then huh?:rolleyes:

[Kurt4253]

for all hunting seasons several years ago has been a resounding success. No traditional long bow, recurve, or even compound bow hunters I've talked to have been affected in any way by bowhunters with crossbows during THEIR season. The positive effects are that additional financial support is coming in each year for our game and fishery dept, more older bowhunters can keep bowhunting that would otherwise be impossible or at least a big hassle trying to get a handicap license and sporting goods dealers are seeing additional business. I wish I could be a fly on the wall to watch some of you anti-crossbow folks when you get older and can't draw a hunting weight bow anymore. If you live long enough it will likely happen. I guess you'll just sit at home during bow season then huh?:rolleyes:

Hi Moonkryket

Ahhhh yes, - & another VETERAN VERTICAL archer speaks up.

You are what - 65 years old & have been bow hunting for 40 plus year now. Which would mean you have been bow hunting even longer then the compound bow has been around. Longer then aluminum arrows & certainly longer then carbon arrows & multiple site pins etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Ahhhh yes, - another VETERAN VERTICAL "ARCHER" speaks up.

There are some young bucks that think you are wrong. There are some young bucks that think the crossbow has no place in the bow season.

Thats OK, - some day they to will get to be an old mossey back, - they will look back, & finally understand!!!

Kurt

[Swamp Ghost]

for all hunting seasons several years ago has been a resounding success. No traditional long bow, recurve, or even compound bow hunters I've talked to have been affected in any way by bowhunters with crossbows during THEIR season. The positive effects are that additional financial support is coming in each year for our game and fishery dept, more older bowhunters can keep bowhunting that would otherwise be impossible or at least a big hassle trying to get a handicap license and sporting goods dealers are seeing additional business. I wish I could be a fly on the wall to watch some of you anti-crossbow folks when you get older and can't draw a hunting weight bow anymore. If you live long enough it will likely happen. I guess you'll just sit at home during bow season then huh?:rolleyes:

How many total hunters has VA added since the legalization of crossbows?

I have never argued against the use of a crossbow for older folks or the disabled.

[Swamp Ghost]

OK, you are right. That question was asked of respondents who are Supporters of Crossbows.

However, - you are still wrong in your figures. For one thing, you forgot the 24% that said ALL seasons, - which includes all of bow season.


Oh the 24% of the 70% who support crossbows, "second" choice was ALL seasons.

Well I guess beggars can't be choosers :rolleyes:

[Hungry Wolf]

for all hunting seasons several years ago has been a resounding success. No traditional long bow, recurve, or even compound bow hunters I've talked to have been affected in any way by bowhunters with crossbows during THEIR season. The positive effects are that additional financial support is coming in each year for our game and fishery dept, more older bowhunters can keep bowhunting that would otherwise be impossible or at least a big hassle trying to get a handicap license and sporting goods dealers are seeing additional business. I wish I could be a fly on the wall to watch some of you anti-crossbow folks when you get older and can't draw a hunting weight bow anymore. If you live long enough it will likely happen. I guess you'll just sit at home during bow season then huh?:rolleyes:

Moonkryket- You are trying to make an argument where none exists... Please show me where anyone who is against unrestricted crossbow use has ever said anything about not allowing it as an accomodation. As much joy as it must bring you to paint us as monsters trying to throw all the old guys out of the woods it simply ain't so...

[Kurt4253]

Oh the 24% of the 70% who support crossbows, "second" choice was ALL seasons.

Well I guess beggars can't be choosers :rolleyes:

ALL seasons, - INCLUDES, - ALL of archery season, - as well as OTHER seasons.

Meaning the 176 people that chose that answer thought xbow should be allowed NOT ONLY durrng archery season, - BUT ALSO during other seasons.

That is in ADDITION TO the 402 that said ALL bow season.

Again, 1047 answered the survey. Divide that by 2 = 524
402 + 176 = 578
578 is greater then 524 = more the 50% said all of bow season

There was an anti xbow guy on the NJ site that tried to spin the numbers to.

He tried to say that only 54 (or5%) of the people that answered the survey were the only bow hunters that answered the survey by selecting "Bow Only"

The 726 (or 69%) didn't count as bow hunters that selected Bow & Gun as an answer.

He didn't like THE FACT that 69% + 5% = 74% of respondents that answered the survey where bow hunters, - many of who agreed to the inclusion of xbow.

But then that is what happens when you try to spin things.

You get DIZZY :D:D:D

Kurt

[Kurt4253]

Moonkryket- You are trying to make an argument where none exists... Please show me where anyone who is against unrestricted crossbow use has ever said anything about not allowing it as an accomodation. As much joy as it must bring you to paint us as monsters trying to throw all the old guys out of the woods it simply ain't so...

I think you missed Moonkryket's point. As a "veteran vertical" archer that has taken up the crossbow to stay in the game, - he is saying THERE IS NO REASON for the crossbow to not have unrestricted inclusion.

I will copy & paste a couple other post he posted else where here on MS

Kurt

[Kurt4253]

Posted by Moonkryket on 04/01/08

I would recommend any state that is considering changing its laws to allow crossbows to be used during archery season take a look at Virginia. Crossbows have been legal for archery season in Virginia for 3 years with no adverse consequences although in the beginning the so called “professional………………” and other groups were gnashing their teeth saying it would bring the end of bowhunting season as we knew it. I think it is safe to say “hogwash” to those claims. Hat’s off to Virginia’s law makers for recognizing that the hunting populations’ age continues to get older. Bowhunting license sales in Virginia had been stagnant for years because less youngsters are getting into the sport. Now older guys with arthritis, and other age related conditions that prevent them from drawing a hunting weight vertical bow, can continue bowhunting without having to get doctors’ statements saying they are permanently disabled and not able to draw a bow. As an example, I’ve been an avid bowhunter for 43 years, with long bows, recurves and, at times, with compounds. I don’t consider myself any less of a bowhunter now as a result of my hunting with a crossbow due to my arthritic condition. I doubt that many younger bowhunters will opt for crossbows simply because there is no advantage for them to do so and if some of them do, it certainly won’t create any earth shattering changes to bowhunting. Crossbows are very heavy, loud and a crossbow hunter is virtually assured he’ll only get one shot at a deer so there are substantial disadvantages as compared to hunting with a vertical bow. The old argument that crossbows have triggers is a reason to not allow them in archery season. That mechanical device I used for years called a back tension “TRIGGER” for releasing arrows from my compound is a………….trigger. My point is that compound vertical bows, with drop away rests, peep sights, bubble levels, stabilizers, battery operated sights, slings and shot with mechanical triggers, ARE accepted as legal archery equipment and are surely as far removed, or more so, from traditional and primitive archery than crossbows, so why all the animosity towards crossbows? Makes no sense to me.

As to the 70 year old age limit to hunt with crossbows, they must be joking!!! Many bowhunters at 60 years old I know already have arthritis and other limitations that either make it very difficult, if not impossible, to effectively continue bowhunting and shooting vertical bows.

Crossbow hunting and shooting continues to grow across the country and rightfully so.

[Kurt4253]

Posted by Moonkryket on 04/03/08

that drive me nuts:16suspect

"It would be a disaster if the State allowed crossbows for everyone during the regular archery season. It's bad enough now with all these fancy wheel bows with all their contraptions".

90% of the folks that make such comments are probably shooting a modern recurve or long bow and shooting high tech carbon arrows or even "tin" (metal) :Darrows with replaceable stainless blades. They set THEIR equipment up to the level of modernization they want and NOW want to tell you and me we can't set our level of bowhunting equipment where WE want:one_eye: Go figure:tdo12:

Anyone that truly believes crossbows in archery season will be a dsisaster only has to look at Ohio, Virginia and other states that allow crossbows during archery and other seasons to see that the statement makes no sense and is factually WRONG.

I'm 65 years old and have been an avid and successful bowhunter for 43 years using all levels of archery equipment from long bows, recurves and compounds. I feel no less of a bowhunter using a crossbow than I did shooting a long bow. Sure, the level of effort to be proficient is higher with a long bow...................SO????????????????? If that should be a factor or requirement, throw away your modern long bows and carbon arrows and go make yourself a self bow out of a hickory stick and make yourself some reed arrows with hand chipped flint heads and feathers tied on with twine. Now that really makes sense too huh?:16suspect

[Munsterlndr]

Moonkryket- You are trying to make an argument where none exists... Please show me where anyone who is against unrestricted crossbow use has ever said anything about not allowing it as an accomodation. As much joy as it must bring you to paint us as monsters trying to throw all the old guys out of the woods it simply ain't so...
You are naive if you think that's the case. Take a look at these NRC minutes and see how many members of the MBH and MTB and other archery organizations have voiced opposition to both changing the requirements for those with physical disabilities to obtain a crossbow permit and also opposing the unrestricted use of crossbows by seniors (65+).

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Minutes_5-10-07_198814_7.pdf

Now look and see how many of these ardent opponents of crossbows managed to get themselves placed on the DNR's Ad Hoc committee for reviewing crossbow permits. It's kind of like allowing the foxes to guard the hen house. :rolleyes:

Next check out this alert that MBH sent out after it was noticed that they were able to stack the crossbow disability work group with anti-crossbow shills, who would make darn sure that nothing changed from the status quo.

http://www.michiganbowhunters.com/

Now look at the MBH official position on reducing the level of disability required for a permit from 80% to 60% or allowing permits for seniors.

http://www.michiganbowhunters.com/news.asp

Now tell me with a straight face that no one is opposed to crossbows as an accommodation for either physical disability or the aging process. :rolleyes:

[Riva]

You are naive if you think that's the case. Take a look at these NRC minutes and see how many members of the MBH and MTB and other archery organizations have voiced opposition to both changing the requirements for those with physical disabilities to obtain a crossbow permit and also opposing the unrestricted use of crossbows by seniors (65+).

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Minutes_5-10-07_198814_7.pdf

Now look and see how many of these ardent opponents of crossbows managed to get themselves placed on the DNR's Ad Hoc committee for reviewing crossbow permits. It's kind of like allowing the foxes to guard the hen house. :rolleyes:

Next check out this alert that MBH sent out after it was noticed that they were able to stack the crossbow disability work group with anti-crossbow shills, who would make darn sure that nothing changed from the status quo.

http://www.michiganbowhunters.com/

Now look at the MBH official position on reducing the level of disability required for a permit from 80% to 60% or allowing permits for seniors.

http://www.michiganbowhunters.com/news.asp

Now tell me with a straight face that no one is opposed to crossbows as an accommodation for either physical disability or the aging process. :rolleyes:

This subject is worth of its own thread but few people have really squinted their eyes at MBH's "official position" on reducing the level of disability required for a permit from 80% to 60%. Well, I have and, I gotta tell ya, it's nefarious, at best.

Here's an excerpt from a letter recently I wrote to The DNR/NRC surrounding their official position:

The MBH played a significant role in the early 1990’s in authoring the current criteria that allows a person with a disability to take game with a crossbow. Furthermore, the MBH has a well- known and long-standing anti-crossbow advocacy. Combined, these factors should make your committee very suspect of the motives surrounding this position statement and its potential end results.

Should the MBH position prevail, the end result will not serve to simply maintain the status quo, as it would appear on the surface. Rather, MBH is actually advocating a heighten degree of scrutiny throughout the entire process than what currently exists, specifically: "Also, we would be very supportive of a more vigorous scrutiny of crossbow permit applications by the DNR Law division to further address the abuse issue.”

The mere suggestion that the DNR Law Division be engaged to enforce what is an already overly restrictive criteria is nefarious. This proposed “vigorous scrutiny” will, in fact, result in excluding even more disabled persons the opportunity to be an equal participant in Michigan’s established hunting seasons, by:
·Discouraging individuals from having an examination whatsoever
·Intimidating the physical therapist conducting the examination
·Harassing those who already have a permit to quantify their disability ad infinitum


Say what you want about unrestricted use of crossbows and the NJ survey, this organization, or a least the leadership hierarchy, really showed some ugly colors on this one. Their position is as shameful as it is immoral. It is, in my opinion, about as low as you can go.

Thanks for brining it up, Munstlnder.

[Swamp Ghost]

Posted by Moonkryket on 04/03/08

that drive me nuts:16suspect

"It would be a disaster if the State allowed crossbows for everyone during the regular archery season. It's bad enough now with all these fancy wheel bows with all their contraptions".

90% of the folks that make such comments are probably shooting a modern recurve or long bow and shooting high tech carbon arrows or even "tin" (metal) :Darrows with replaceable stainless blades. They set THEIR equipment up to the level of modernization they want and NOW want to tell you and me we can't set our level of bowhunting equipment where WE want:one_eye: Go figure:tdo12:

Anyone that truly believes crossbows in archery season will be a dsisaster only has to look at Ohio, Virginia and other states that allow crossbows during archery and other seasons to see that the statement makes no sense and is factually WRONG.

I'm 65 years old and have been an avid and successful bowhunter for 43 years using all levels of archery equipment from long bows, recurves and compounds. I feel no less of a bowhunter using a crossbow than I did shooting a long bow. Sure, the level of effort to be proficient is higher with a long bow...................SO????????????????? If that should be a factor or requirement, throw away your modern long bows and carbon arrows and go make yourself a self bow out of a hickory stick and make yourself some reed arrows with hand chipped flint heads and feathers tied on with twine. Now that really makes sense too huh?:16suspect

Kurt where are you from?

MI has more deer hunters than OH and VA have deer....:lol:

I find it interesting folks who have enjoyed 20, 30, 40+ years of BOW season somehow have seen the light and now not only want crossbows for the elderly/aged but for everyone.

I wonder if they want to legalize crossbows for everyone as a way to ensure they'll be able to use one?

Kind of like stacking the deck, hmmmmmmmmm.........

[Kurt4253]

Here is the thing that you guys that are SOOOOOO against the inclusion of the crossbow don't seem to get.

The vast majority of us that advocate for the inclusion of the crossbow, - are IN FACT "veteran vertical archers"

Due to circumstances beyond our control, - we have had the OPPORTUNITY to HUNT with both, the vertical bow & the crossbow.

As a result of HUNTING, - we see no GREAT advantage between them - & therefore NO justifiable reason to exclude one.

No one is saying that with the inclusion of crossbow, - YOU MUST hunt with one.

Why do you guys insist on telling others what THEY MUST hunt with?????????

You guys seem to justify your position by saying - but we are not against it if you have a physical disability, - you just need to get the permit.

Ya, right, - at an additional cost of MY time & money!!! - About another $300.00 of MY time & money.

WHY do you guys insist on me spending more of MY money, - so that I can do something YOU agree that I have a right to do???

It seems to me that for no good reason, - you want it to cost me more, - to do the SAME thing you want to do, - for less money.

Again I must ask, - show me one - GREAT, - advantage, - that the crossbow has over excepted vertical bows, - that justifies this additional cost & hasle???

Kurt

[Swamp Ghost]

Good for the MBH! They are doing what their members want them to do, protect bowhunters, bowhunting and it's season!

Paint them as nefarious, demonize them, whatever floats your boat. At the end of the day their stand has been unwavering and straightforward. It's called integrity.

Crossbow proponents should take a lesson......

[Swamp Ghost]

Here is the thing that you guys that are SOOOOOO against the inclusion of the crossbow don't seem to get.

The vast majority of us that advocate for the inclusion of the crossbow, - are IN FACT "veteran vertical archers"

Due to circumstances beyond our control, - we have had the OPPORTUNITY to HUNT with both, the vertical bow & the crossbow.

As a result of HUNTING, - we see no GREAT advantage between them - & therefore NO justifiable reason to exclude one.

No one is saying that with the inclusion of crossbow, - YOU MUST hunt with one.

Why do you guys insist on telling others what THEY MUST hunt with?????????

You guys seem to justify your position by saying - but we are not against it if you have a physical disability, - you just need to get the permit.

Ya, right, - at an additional cost of MY time & money!!! - About another $300.00 of MY time & money.

WHY do you guys insist on me spending more of MY money, - so that I can do something YOU agree that I have a right to do???

It seems to me that for no good reason, - you want it to cost me more, - to do the SAME thing you want to do, - for less money.

Again I must ask, - show me one - GREAT, - advantage, - that the crossbow has over excepted vertical bows, - that justifies this additional cost & hasle???

Kurt

Kurt the survey you so dearly covet lays it all out there. When broken down by user group, the majority of hunters still agree they will use a crossbow now: bow & gun hunters, 62%; gun-only hunters, 59%; bow-only hunters, 54%

It appears that most able-bodied hunters would gleefully go through the hassle and cost to get that advantage.

[Kurt4253]

Kurt the survey you so dearly covet lays it all out there.

It appears that most able-bodied hunters would gleefully go through the hassle and cost to get that advantage.

ROFLMAO

I already warned you about spinning.

It makes you DIZZY

[Swamp Ghost]

http://forums.bowsite.com/tf/pics/00small11761115.JPG

It appears question 3 was "Check All That Apply" LOL! And only included supporters of crossbows. As I suspected.

Honestly I have not seen a survey better at "Steering" than this one.

Spin away!

LOL!

[Kurt4253]

Kurt the survey you so dearly covet lays it all out there.

It appears that most able-bodied hunters would gleefully go through the hassle and cost to get that advantage.

To clarify. - what the NJ survey says is, - most hunters DON'T think you should have to go through & cost & hasle.

[Swamp Ghost]

To clarify. - what the NJ survey says is, - most hunters DON'T think you should have to go through & cost & hasle.

Yeah the survey is abundantly clear :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Riva]

Good for the MBH! They are doing what their members want them to do, protect bowhunters, bowhunting and it's season!

Paint them as nefarious, demonize them, whatever floats your boat. At the end of the day their stand has been unwavering and straightforward. It's called integrity.

Crossbow proponents should take a lesson......

This is the "Integrity" that you associate with them...
·Discouraging individuals from having an examination whatsoever
·Intimidating the physical therapist conducting the examination
·Harassing those who already have a permit to quantify their disability ad infinitum

Its obvious that the MBH's disdain for crossbows is so intense, so entrenched and so heartless that they would have the gumption to elicit the DNR Law division to work as their private "Archery Police" on their behalf. There are are lot of words to describe this organization with regards to crossbows however; "integrity" is not one of them.

When we all look back at their behavior throughout this process, no matter what the outcome may be, people will say, this was not their finest hour!

[michigandeerslayer]

I still don't understand..A arrow is a arrow

IF you choose to do it with a compound bow or a crossbow Its a arrow

If it will kill a deer so be it

Man all you guys that are so against it make me sick, its ok for you to use releases, high let-off's faster arrows etc...Give me a break


Should we hunters stop using scent free clothes, because it gives us a advantage over the deer?

Oh yeah don't use a scope or a gun rest while hunting That might make it too easy

Dont use a treestand, because you are above the deer and that is a disadvantage because the deer cant see you as easy as being on the ground


Man these arguments are childish

Deer hunting is deer hunting

There are more important things to worry about rather then what kind of weapon we use

[Swamp Ghost]

I still don't understand..A arrow is a arrow

IF you choose to do it with a compound bow or a crossbow Its a arrow

If it will kill a deer so be it

Man all you guys that are so against it make me sick, its ok for you to use releases, high let-off's faster arrows etc...Give me a break


Should we hunters stop using scent free clothes, because it gives us a advantage over the deer?

Oh yeah don't use a scope or a gun rest while hunting That might make it too easy

Dont use a treestand, because you are above the deer and that is a disadvantage because the deer cant see you as easy as being on the ground


Man these arguments are childish

Deer hunting is deer hunting

There are more important things to worry about rather then what kind of weapon we use

Sorry but there is a reason the DNR saw fit to have a BOW season and a FIREARM season.

Crossbows shoot bolts, FYI.

With your analogy, would you like pistols to be allowed in BOWseason? How about Muzzleloaders?

Aww Shucks, lets just make it an any weapon deer season from Oct. 1 to Jan. 1. Sound good? I mean the only reason we hunt is to kill deer, right?

Gotta love the MBH! Thank God they aren't as gullible as some politicians or people that hunt in this state.

[Hungry Wolf]

You are naive if you think that's the case. Take a look at these NRC minutes and see how many members of the MBH and MTB and other archery organizations have voiced opposition to both changing the requirements for those with physical disabilities to obtain a crossbow permit and also opposing the unrestricted use of crossbows by seniors (65+).

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Minutes_5-10-07_198814_7.pdf

Now look and see how many of these ardent opponents of crossbows managed to get themselves placed on the DNR's Ad Hoc committee for reviewing crossbow permits. It's kind of like allowing the foxes to guard the hen house. :rolleyes:

Next check out this alert that MBH sent out after it was noticed that they were able to stack the crossbow disability work group with anti-crossbow shills, who would make darn sure that nothing changed from the status quo.

http://www.michiganbowhunters.com/

Now look at the MBH official position on reducing the level of disability required for a permit from 80% to 60% or allowing permits for seniors.

http://www.michiganbowhunters.com/news.asp

Now tell me with a straight face that no one is opposed to crossbows as an accommodation for either physical disability or the aging process. :rolleyes:

I was referring more to the posters on MS who, like me, are against unrestricted use in archery season.

But since you brought it up- (and I really am asking here) How is a group (MBH) who got crossbows introduced in the first place and now does not want to ease existing crossbow regs for the disabled 'anti disabled hunter'??? At some point they must have considered the disabled archer- perhaps they did not consider them enough for your taste? You may not agree with their standards or methods of determining disability but to say that they are anti-accommodation is a stretch. Do you really think their motives are to deny people the opportunity to hunt? I don't remember reading that in their mission statement. Perhaps if they felt that loosening the requirements would not result in a mad rush for full inclusion they might be a little more agreeable??? (I don't speak for MBH so I don't know...)

For the record- I support loosening the regs as they are now written but understand some not wanting to start down that slippery slope.

[Hungry Wolf]

Man all you guys that are so against it make me sick

I'm sorry you are not feeling well... Freedom of speech is freedom to disagree. I don't have any problem sleeping at night knowing that not everyone agrees with my viewpoint.

[michigandeerslayer]

Sorry but there is a reason the DNR saw fit to have a BOW season and a FIREARM season.

Crossbows shoot bolts, FYI.

With your analogy, would you like pistols to be allowed in BOWseason? How about Muzzleloaders?

Aww Shucks, lets just make it an any weapon deer season from Oct. 1 to Jan. 1. Sound good? I mean the only reason we hunt is to kill deer, right?

Gotta love the MBH! Thank God they aren't as gullible as some politicians or people that hunt in this state.

A firearm uses a BULLET, and a cross bow uses a arrow(bolt) they both are made out of the same material just shorter, and they both use a Broadhead


So no where does that compare to a firearm or a muzzleloader

Sounds to me like the guys who hunt public land have the issues with crossbow's, because they have to share the woods with a fellow hunter

Lets get down to the basic's then and start saying that you cant use nothing but cut on contact broadheads, no carbon arrows no releases, nothing over 50% let off no lighted pins, or arrow rest that hold your arrow in place. So string silencers oh yeah dont use camo or deer calls... That is what you guys are try to do... So lets do it

[Riva]

I was referring more to the posters on MS who, like me, are against unrestricted use in archery season.

But since you brought it up- (and I really am asking here) How is a group (MBH) who got crossbows introduced in the first place and now does not want to ease existing crossbow regs for the disabled 'anti disabled hunter'??? At some point they must have considered the disabled archer- perhaps they did not consider them enough for your taste? You may not agree with their standards or methods of determining disability but to say that they are anti-accommodation is a stretch. Do you really think their motives are to deny people the opportunity to hunt? I don't remember reading that in their mission statement. Perhaps if they felt that loosening the requirements would not result in a mad rush for full inclusion they might be a little more agreeable??? (I don't speak for MBH so I don't know...)

For the record- I support loosening the regs as they are now written but understand some not wanting to start down that slippery slope.

I commend you for your support of "loosening the regs", as you call it, regarding the criteria that will allow a person with a disability to use a crossbow during the archery season. Likewise, your comment about not wanting to start down that slippery slope is 100% spot on! That is precisely the posture of the MBH as evidenced by their position statement surrounding the expansion of medical criteria issues.

Not only do they want to maintain the status quo (80%), they want to inject an even higher level of scrutiny throughout the process. In their minds, the way to not go down the "slippery slope" is to stunt crossbow usage at every intersection so that even "consideration" of unrestricted use can never appear on the radar screen. As I have said before, it's a pretty clever technique, that is, if it weren't so egregiously immoral. To them, if a few hundred or even a few thousand disabled hunters are excluded from participating in Michigan's fabulous archery season, their position is that's just tough rocks; it's the price somebody has to pay to keep crossbows use to its absolute barest minimum.

Michigan has perhaps the most restrictive medical criteria amongst the 47 states that have a provision to allow a person with a disability to use a crossbow. Well guess what? MBH was instrumental in creating that criteria back in the early 90's. Do you think for a moment that their agenda and biases were/are not a part of the fabric of this criteria? In retrospect, having them be any part of that process back then was akin to having the British write our Declaration of Independence! Think about it.

Do I believe in my heart of hearts that the people in the MBH are inherently evil? The answer is no. I do believe however, that they gotten some really bad advice and, have embraced a terribly wrong methodology regarding how to stunt crossbow expansion, perhaps ultimately leading to unrestricted use..aka "the slippery slope". It's wrong because it allows for human causalities--persons with disabilities that do not meet the criteria but still cannot pull or hold a regular bow --as an acceptable price to pay so as to win the battle. I can't make myself believe that the MBH membership at large fully understands and appreciates the moral, practical and ethical implications that their leadership has composed via this public posture. READ MY LIPS: People with disabilities are not expendable pawns!

I would support any open debate between those who advocate unrestricted crossbow use and those who don't. And then, let the chips fall where they may. However, I would at the same time ask the MBH, as leading voice in the anti-crossbow advocacy, to come out from behind this egregiously wrong campaign they have embraced regarding the medical criteria issues affecting people with disabilities and like everybody else, debate the issues on their merits. And then, may the best team win.

There's is such a thing as a fair fight and such a thing a dirty fight. Theirs, is a dirty fight.

[Hungry Wolf]

Not only do they want to maintain the status quo (80%), they want to inject an even higher level of scrutiny throughout the process. In their minds, the way to not go down the "slippery slope" is to stunt crossbow usage at every intersection so that even "consideration" of unrestricted use can never appear on the radar screen. As I have said before, it's a pretty clever technique, that is, if it weren't so egregiously immoral. To them, if a few hundred or even a few thousand disabled hunters are excluded from participating in Michigan's fabulous archery season, their position is that's just tough rocks; it's the price somebody has to pay to keep crossbows use to its absolute barest minimum.

But is it truly immoral if they don't agree with your view on how to accommodate disabled archers? Sounds like they have chosen to take a different path: This quote was from the MBH website- "individuals are also educated about the Modified Bow permit application and products like the Draw Loc system, which enables an attachment to be added to a bow to draw and lock the bowstring at full draw." At a minimum they are providing alternatives- just not the ones you advocate?

Personally I don't care what accommodations are made if it gets someone into the woods who otherwise would not be able to participate- It just seems that MBH is getting bashed for not jumping on the crossbow bandwagon.

[Hungry Wolf]

I would support any open debate between those who advocate unrestricted crossbow use and those who don't. And then, let the chips fall where they may.

Couldn't agree more...

[Swamp Ghost]

A firearm uses a BULLET, and a cross bow uses a arrow(bolt) they both are made out of the same material just shorter, and they both use a Broadhead


So no where does that compare to a firearm or a muzzleloader

Sounds to me like the guys who hunt public land have the issues with crossbow's, because they have to share the woods with a fellow hunter

Lets get down to the basic's then and start saying that you cant use nothing but cut on contact broadheads, no carbon arrows no releases, nothing over 50% let off no lighted pins, or arrow rest that hold your arrow in place. So string silencers oh yeah dont use camo or deer calls... That is what you guys are try to do... So lets do it

Defenders of the crossbow guys are the ones harping on all the gadgets, not me.

I don't care if a compound bow has 99% let-off and is made out of titanium it's still a bow, it still requires the same mechanics as it's longbow and recurve brethren.

A crossbow is an entirely different weapon, just like a firearm. Hence the need for separate seasons and restricted use.

[Swamp Ghost]

READ MY LIPS: People with disabilities are not expendable pawns!



Nor should they be used as ones to advance an agenda.

[michigandeerslayer]

Defenders of the crossbow guys are the ones harping on all the gadgets, not me.

I don't care if a compound bow has 99% let-off and is made out of titanium it's still a bow, it still requires the same mechanics as it's longbow and recurve brethren.

A crossbow is an entirely different weapon, just like a firearm. Hence the need for separate seasons and restricted use.then why dont they refer to it as a CROSSGUN

No I see the word bow in CROSSBOW

[Swamp Ghost]

then why dont they refer to it as a CROSSGUN

No I see the word bow in CROSSBOW

Probably because there is a bow attached to the front of the stock.......

Feel free to call it whatever you like

[michigandeerslayer]

Probably because there is a bow attached to the front of the stock.......

Feel free to call it whatever you like

I personally prefer a regular bow but I cant use them anymore, but I also think it comes down to a matter of preference Just like to you prefer a pistol over a shotgun over a muzzleloader in zone 3

[Swamp Ghost]

I personally prefer a regular bow but I cant use them anymore, but I also think it comes down to a matter of preference Just like to you prefer a pistol over a shotgun over a muzzleloader in zone 3

It's not a matter of preference. It's a matter of different weapons in separate seasons.

A muzzleloader, pistol, shotgun or rifle are all firearms that can be used in the same firearm season.

Bowhunters have a separate season for their weapon, Firearm hunters have theirs as a matter of fact so do crossbow users. As it stands now crossbow guys can use their weapon without restriction starting Nov. 15th.

But now they want to use their crossbows in BOW season, I wonder why the MBH is so leery of changes to crossbow legislation?

[Falk]

Swamp Ghost, your last post is dead on.

[Riva]

But is it truly immoral if they don't agree with your view on how to accommodate disabled archers? Sounds like they have chosen to take a different path: This quote was from the MBH website- "individuals are also educated about the Modified Bow permit application and products like the Draw Loc system, which enables an attachment to be added to a bow to draw and lock the bowstring at full draw." At a minimum they are providing alternatives- just not the ones you advocate?

Personally I don't care what accommodations are made if it gets someone into the woods who otherwise would not be able to participate- It just seems that MBH is getting bashed for not jumping on the crossbow bandwagon.

I agree that a draw lock, body brace and even mouth tabs are reasonable accommodations that would allow a person with a disability to hunt with. Currently, in Michigan, only crossbows and draw-locks are permitted. To that end, the State of Michigan should permit physically challenged hunters to utilize any one of these two reasonable accommodations that best fits their individual disability. Furthermore, this decision should solely be left up to the physically challenged hunter. This decision should not be dictated by an individual or individuals who do not have the disability possessed by the physically challenged hunter seeking a device that most suits his or her individual requirements. Remember that no two individuals are alike and neither are their disabilities.

With regards to my opinion regarding the MBH, I would agree with your comments if their position statement stopped at simply declaring that they do not support expansion of the medical criteria from 80% to 60%. I would simply accept it as their position. I happen to disagree with but, I would accept it.

But it didn't stop there.

They went on to advocate more than simply advocating support of the status quo... "Also, we would be very supportive of a more vigorous scrutiny of crossbow permit applications by the DNR Law division to further address the abuse issue".

To any thinking person, this position has clear intent, specifically; the MBH has such a disdain for crossbows that they not only want just the most severally disabled person to be allowed its use, even though many may still be physically unable to pull or hold a regular bow, they are even requesting an official division of our state government to carry out their agenda of exclusion at every intersection: before, during and after.

Before: By discouraging an individual from taking the examination whatsoever

During: Intimidating the physical therapist conducting the examination

After: Harassing those who already have a permit to quantify his/her disability
ad infinitum

Wake up people! This is what these folks are advocating!

There is a way to stop this selfish thinking. And, it is what I have suggested all along as the way to handle these matters. The solution is to do away with ALL the criteria; the 80%, 60%, 50% 20% 1!%. Get rid of all criteria of it except for this....That in order to obtain a permit to hunt with a crossbow, a person be required to obtain and produce a letter from their own physician (not physical therapist) attesting to the fact that, in his /her professional opinion, the applicant has a permanent or temporary disability of a degree of severity that render the individual unable to pull and/or hold a long-or compound bow. In this manner, nobody is excluded and nobody can fall through the cracks.

This places the onus of defining, establishing and, determining the degree of severity of a disability squarely on the shoulders of the applicant and the physician and not the government. Of equal importance, is the fact that these matters, which are of a highly personal nature, will be kept within in a totally-confidential, doctor-patient environment and not in the public domain.

Predictably, the MBH and others will howl that this could put too many crossbows into the woods during the archery season. My position tracks precisely with the American with Disabilities Act, specifically; that if it allows just one additional person to have the opportunity to participate as an equal in the exact same activity (archery season), so be it. If it allows one million additional people to have the opportunity the opportunity to participate equally in the same activity as an able-bodied person, I likewise say, so be it.

[MERGANZER]

Its gonna be settled with a vote and not until then. Lets remember these are all opinions. I don't think anyone here really wants the disabled to be "left out" of the hunting community and if they do that is very sad.

Ganzer

[michigandeerslayer]

It's not a matter of preference. It's a matter of different weapons in separate seasons.

A muzzleloader, pistol, shotgun or rifle are all firearms that can be used in the same firearm season.

Bowhunters have a separate season for their weapon, Firearm hunters have theirs as a matter of fact so do crossbow users. As it stands now crossbow guys can use their weapon without restriction starting Nov. 15th.

But now they want to use their crossbows in BOW season, I wonder why the MBH is so leery of changes to crossbow legislation?

Muzzlelaoders have there own season, and you cant use a rifle in zone 3.Why is that, I hunt open corn fields where 300yard shoots are there allday, but you dont here us zone 3 hunters crying about it.

The object of it all is to get more people in the woods, so If someone wants to use a cross bow in archery season, who am i to tell them they cant. If you are legal to own and use it so be it

It is beating a dead horse, times are changing and so is equipment

Look at Virgina they started 3years ago allowing cross bow and they have no issues

[Swamp Ghost]

Muzzlelaoders have there own season, and you cant use a rifle in zone 3.Why is that, I hunt open corn fields where 300yard shoots are there allday, but you dont here us zone 3 hunters crying about it.

The object of it all is to get more people in the woods, so If someone wants to use a cross bow in archery season, who am i to tell them they cant. If you are legal to own and use it so be it

It is beating a dead horse, times are changing and so is equipment

Look at Virgina they started 3years ago allowing cross bow and they have no issues

First off, rifles in zone 3 is a completely seperate safety concern.

We have already established that crossbows are not nor ever have been a new hunter recruitment tool.

As it stands crossbows are illegal to use in MI's BOW season.

MI is not VA when it comes to hunters and hunter numbers.

[michigandeerslayer]

First off, rifles in zone 3 is a completely seperate safety concern.

We have already established that crossbows are not nor ever have been a new hunter recruitment tool.
As it stands crossbows are illegal to use in MI's BOW season.

MI is not VA when it comes to hunters and hunter numbers.

First off, rifles in zone 3 is a completely seperate safety concern.Still trying to figure out why, there just as apt to shoot someone with a rifle above the rifle line as they are a shotgun. You get up north and its pretty dense cover, compared to open fields down here

We have already established that crossbows are not nor ever have been a new hunter recruitment tool.Maybe it would encourage others to try who cant use a regular bow

As it stands crossbows are illegal to use in MI's BOW season.True but that could change

MI is not VA when it comes to hunters and hunter numbers.
They are a state in our country that allows there hunters to have a choice and I think that is a good thing Along with many more

[Swamp Ghost]

We have already established that crossbows are not nor ever have been a new hunter recruitment tool.Maybe it would encourage others to try who cant use a regular bow

We aren't talking about people who CAN'T use a regular bow. The disabled can use one, even in MI. We are talking about able-bodied hunters, who can use a bow but don't want to, unrestricted use of a crossbow in the BOW season.


MI is not VA when it comes to hunters and hunter numbers.
They are a state in our country that allows there hunters to have a choice and I think that is a good thing Along with many more

Correct and MI chooses to keep crossbows illegal in MI's BOW season.

[Riva]

I agree that a draw lock, body brace and even mouth tabs are reasonable accommodations that would allow a person with a disability to hunt with. Currently, in Michigan, only crossbows and draw-locks are permitted. To that end, the State of Michigan should permit physically challenged hunters to utilize any one of these two reasonable accommodations that best fits their individual disability. Furthermore, this decision should solely be left up to the physically challenged hunter. This decision should not be dictated by an individual or individuals who do not have the disability possessed by the physically challenged hunter seeking a device that most suits his or her individual requirements. Remember that no two individuals are alike and neither are their disabilities.

With regards to my opinion regarding the MBH, I would agree with your comments if their position statement stopped at simply declaring that they do not support expansion of the medical criteria from 80% to 60%. I would simply accept it as their position. I happen to disagree with but, I would accept it.

But it didn't stop there.

They went on to advocate more than simply advocating support of the status quo... "Also, we would be very supportive of a more vigorous scrutiny of crossbow permit applications by the DNR Law division to further address the abuse issue".

To any thinking person, this position has clear intent, specifically; the MBH has such a disdain for crossbows that they not only want just the most severally disabled person to be allowed its use, even though many may still be physically unable to pull or hold a regular bow, they are even requesting an official division of our state government to carry out their agenda of exclusion at every intersection: before, during and after.

Before: By discouraging an individual from taking the examination whatsoever

During: Intimidating the physical therapist conducting the examination

After: Harassing those who already have a permit to quantify his/her disability
ad infinitum

Wake up people! This is what these folks are advocating!

There is a way to stop this selfish thinking. And, it is what I have suggested all along as the way to handle these matters. The solution is to do away with ALL the criteria; the 80%, 60%, 50% 20% 1!%. Get rid of all criteria of it except for this....That in order to obtain a permit to hunt with a crossbow, a person be required to obtain and produce a letter from their own physician (not physical therapist) attesting to the fact that, in his /her professional opinion, the applicant has a permanent or temporary disability of a degree of severity that render the individual unable to pull and/or hold a long-or compound bow. In this manner, nobody is excluded and nobody can fall through the cracks.

This places the onus of defining, establishing and, determining the degree of severity of a disability squarely on the shoulders of the applicant and the physician and not the government. Of equal importance, is the fact that these matters, which are of a highly personal nature, will be kept within in a totally-confidential, doctor-patient environment and not in the public domain.

Predictably, the MBH and others will howl that this could put too many crossbows into the woods during the archery season. My position tracks precisely with the American with Disabilities Act, specifically; that if it allows just one additional person to have the opportunity to participate as an equal in the exact same activity (archery season), so be it. If it allows one million additional people to have the opportunity the opportunity to participate equally in the same activity as an able-bodied person, I likewise say, so be it.[/quote]

[wildcoy73]

No one will need to worry anymore. Michigan hunters will not be able to afford to hunt come October first. With the price of gas and food, no one has money left to spend in the feild.
I have to sit down every day and see what i can and can not do that day. So far I have lost trout fishing at my best spot. I have looked into the future and I see i will not be hunting the places I did last year.
So we sit in this site and yell about crossbows for all, and we are missing the big picture. Crossbows will not increase hunter numbers in michigan at this time. What they will do is maybe help the blow of the lost of hunters we are to see. We will not see a mad rush to buy crossbows. At $400.00 for a low cost crossbow not many are going to jump for them. Time has presented itself to us and we all are looking for the way to fill the gas tank.
I will keep the fight up for crossbows for all, ust as I have been doing for the youth hunt. What makes a child on private land better than the child on state land? I have no clue but this great state we live in believes they are better.

[Kurt4253]

Again I must ask, - show me one - GREAT, - advantage, - that the crossbow has over excepted vertical bows, - that justifies this additional cost & hasle???

Kurt

I asked this question yesterday. --- I have asked this same question in other threads on this site. ---I have also asked this question multiple times on other sites in other states.

I have not yet gotten an answer to this question. - No, not even once!!!

Sooooo, - once again I ask the question.

Show me ONE, - GREAT advantage that the crossbow has, over currently excepted archery equipment, - when it comes to HUNTING, - that justifies keeping it excluded as a weapon of choice, - for a hunter, - disabled or not, - to take to the woods, - to harvest a game animal, - that each & every one of us are entitled to, - for the meat to put in our freezers.

Kurt

[Swamp Ghost]

Sorry Riva, sell it elsewhere. It sure looks like you have a dog in this fight or is it a seagull?

The state of MI set the disability standard not he MBH.

It's gone from you championing the New Jersey survey as evidence that
it's clear that over 70% of those surveyed indicated that they are in favor of crossbows. This support even includes those who are members of structured sports-person's associations. And from that statistic, one can only surmise that the negative advocacy surrounding crossbows that emanates from many of these organizations is not reflective of the real attitudes of their membership at large. Rather, it screams to the fact that anti-crossbow advocacy is merely the position of the leadership hierarchy than it is the group at large. In other words, "the bosses have the microphone" however; the numbers clearly show, it's hardly a unified voice by any reasonable measure. Numbers don't lie and, this was a random survey.

LOL! When in fact the survey measured the support of CROSSBOW SUPPORTERS and even they didn't want the CROSSBOW in BOW season.

Now you want to demonize the MBH for doing their job of protecting the bowhunters of this state!

You've conveniently turned the conversation from unrestricted crossbow use in the bowseason to railing against the disability standard. Now you want to


The solution is to do away with ALL the criteria; the 80%, 60%, 50% 20% 1!%. Get rid of all criteria of it except for this....That in order to obtain a permit to hunt with a crossbow, a person be required to obtain and produce a letter from their own physician (not physical therapist) attesting to the fact that, in his /her professional opinion, the applicant has a permanent or temporary disability of a degree of severity that render the individual unable to pull and/or hold a long-or compound bow.


2 totally separate issues that you would like to roll into one. This is exactly what the MBH is preventing.

You talk about the MBH getting some bad advice, the tactics that crossbow proponents have employed using MI disabled hunters is shameful.

[Swamp Ghost]

I asked this question yesterday. --- I have asked this same question in other threads on this site. ---I have also asked this question multiple times on other sites in other states.

I have not yet gotten an answer to this question. - No, not even once!!!

Sooooo, - once again I ask the question.

Show me ONE, - GREAT advantage that the crossbow has, over currently excepted archery equipment, - when it comes to HUNTING, - that justifies keeping it excluded as a weapon of choice, - for a hunter, - disabled or not, - to take to the woods, - to harvest a game animal, - that each & every one of us are entitled to, - for the meat to put in our freezers.

Kurt

You tell me where you are from and I'll give you my answer. Or you could just go through my posts and find out for yourself.

[Kurt4253]

You tell me where you are from and I'll give you my answer. Or you could just go through my posts and find out for yourself.

Actually I meant to tell you where I am from yesterday but ran out of time before going to work.

I am originally from Wisconsin. I also lived in Northern California where I worked as a logger for about 20 years. I currently live in Spokane Washington.

HOWEVER, - I in fact have a personal interest in Michigan for the following reason.

I have an old high school buddy that has a cottage on 1000 island lake of the Cisco chain of lakes up in the UP. Every year for the last 10 years now I spend time there in the UP enjoying the "great" outdoor opportunities the UP has to offer to the outdoors man. (fishing, hiking, boating & yes hunting)

For 5 of those years I was living back in Wisconsin so spent considerable time up at the lake cottage. Now that I live here in Washington, - I sill, - EVERY year make a trip back there (to Wi to visit) at least once & sometimes twice a year & when I do 3 or 4 of those days are spent in the UP.

Consequently, - though I am not a resident of Mi, I still spend both time & MONEY every year in Mi. Consequently, - YES, - I have a very real & legitimate concern with what takes place in Mi.

As it stands, - with the impairment I have with my draw hand, - & the Mi crossbow restrictions, - I can not bow hunt Mi. which is something I would like to do.

That is also why I advocate for full inclusion in all 50 states. As it stands now, because of Xbow restriction, the xbow hunter can not hunt many other states that they wish to. Most state do not except out of state disabled permits. You have to jump through their hoops & thats not right. Every other hunter can hut any other state, - the xbow hunter can not & that is just flat out WRONG!!!

Kurt

[michigandeerslayer]

Kurt

I'm still digging for the answer, and Im having a hard time finding it.

[Swamp Ghost]

Thanks Kurt, appreciate it.

Again I don't have a problem with the disabled using a crossbow, I really haven't ran across any bowhunter that would.

But just because you disagree with a particular states disability standard or permit procedures to use a crossbow in BOW season, is a poor, might I say selfish, reason for unrestricted crossbow use.

You think it is wrong, I may not agree with all of it, yet the state of MI and it's residents thinks the state's crossbow permit procedure is a fair measuring stick for allowing the advantages that come along with crossbow use.

The overwhelming advantage of the crossbow that trumps all the other advantages of the crossbow and the compound bow, is the lack of drawing and holding it in the presence of game.

[Munsterlndr]

The overwhelming advantage of the crossbow that trumps all the other advantages of the crossbow and the compound bow, is the lack of drawing and holding it in the presence of game.

And once again, if this is such an overwhelming advantage, why is the harvest success rate for crossbow hunters not higher than for vertical bow hunters?

That is a pretty simple test that disproves the notion that crossbows have an inherent advantage.

[Kurt4253]

the state of MI and it's residents thinks the state's crossbow permit procedure is a fair measuring stick for allowing the advantages that come along with crossbow use.

No, - there are only "SOME" people in Mi that think that.

[Kurt4253]

The overwhelming advantage of the crossbow that trumps all the other advantages of the crossbow and the compound bow, is the lack of drawing and holding it in the presence of game.

Sorry, but with "modern" compound bows that have 80% & greater let off, you can draw & hold LONG before you are "in the presence of game"

Pope & Young record poves this. 80% let off, - hunter drew & held for 3 full minutes before releasing. - That is, - as you know, - a long time. More then enough to be up & ready, - long before being "in the presence of game"

Equals, - no GREAT advantage.

Next answer please

Kurt

[MERGANZER]

Stats can be used to prove anything you want them to. There is a great advantage to the crossbow and I cannot beleive people actually think there is not. I mean cmon, common sense will tell you that much

Ganzer

[swampbuck]

swamp ghost,

I figured out what has you so confused......


MICHIGAN DOES NOT HAVE A BOW SEASON !!!!

We do however have an archery season and it just so happens that crossbows are considered archey equipment by Michigan and the fedreral govt.

[Whit1]

In a continuing effort to discover the facts about crossbows, their use, regulations, and impact on the deer herd as well as the numbers of archers that might/or not, be added to the ranks of Michigan's bowhunters I've contacted several states where crossbow inclusion is the law. I asked what kind of impact crossbow inclusion has had on their number of archery hunters during that season. Below you will find a copy/paste of the response from Alabama.

Mr. Whitmore,
Crossbows were legalized for use in the Alabama archery only season 3 seasons ago. Our mail survey indicates that the number of archery hunters increased during the first year after they were legalized. Discussions with archery pro shop owners indicate that crossbow sales were very good during the first year. Since then, archery hunter numbers have declined below the pre-crossbow days. Pro shop owners have stated to me that crossbow sales have declined significantly since the first year.

I believe many individuals purchased them because they wanted to try the “latest and greatest” thing to harvest a deer. After buying and trying them, many individuals found them to be noisy, heavy, and easier than a compound bow to shoot. I think many Alabama hunters chose to go back to hunting with a compound (even though it is more difficult to draw and shoot) because they are quieter and easier to handle in a tree.

I believe that many individuals that purchased crossbows did so because they thought they were going to shoot deer out to distances like rifle hunters. After buying them, hunters found that crossbows are no more effective than a compound bow at distances beyond 40-50 yards.

Our mail survey does not indicate that crossbows positively impacted the number of licenses sold or deer harvested. The crossbow makes up as much as 50% of the harvest in some states where it is legal for use during the archery only season. We have not experienced that here in Alabama.
Ray Metzler
Hunter Education Coordinator
Alabama Division of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries

[Swamp Ghost]

Sorry, but with "modern" compound bows that have 80% & greater let off, you can draw & hold LONG before you are "in the presence of game"

Pope & Young record poves this. 80% let off, - hunter drew & held for 3 full minutes before releasing. - That is, - as you know, - a long time. More then enough to be up & ready, - long before being "in the presence of game"

Equals, - no GREAT advantage.

Next answer please

Kurt

Come on! 3, 6, 9 minutes compares to infinity, how?

[Hungry Wolf]

Stats can be used to prove anything you want them to. There is a great advantage to the crossbow and I cannot beleive people actually think there is not. I mean cmon, common sense will tell you that much

Ganzer

Ganzer- But crossbows are heavy! I was told that and now see the light! Besides, drawing in the presence of a deer is not that big of a deal; They are just too dumb, and I don't think they see too well- Especially if you are wearing camo! And up in a tree! Let that logic crush you as it has me... :dizzy:

[Kurt4253]

Stats can be used to prove anything you want them to. There is a great advantage to the crossbow and I cannot beleive people actually think there is not. I mean cmon, common sense will tell you that much

Ganzer

The question is NOT if you THINK the crossbow has a GREAT advantage.

The question is, - WHAT IS the - GREAT, - advantage???

[Kurt4253]

Come on! 3, 6, 9 minutes compares to infinity, how?

Come on is right, - I can't hold my xbow up even close to 3 minutes, - much let alone for infinity.

Next answer please.

(got to go to work, - looking forward to that next answer)

Kurt

[Swamp Ghost]

swamp ghost,

I figured out what has you so confused......


MICHIGAN DOES NOT HAVE A BOW SEASON !!!!

We do however have an archery season and it just so happens that crossbows are considered archey equipment by Michigan and the fedreral govt.

Well in fact it is I consider it a BOW season because it's the only unrestricted weapon allowed to hunt deer Oct. 1 - Nov. 14th.

Some folks get all hung up about the "archery" thing. MI may consider it "archery" equipment, but they also consider it ILLEGAL. I wonder why that is?

It is illegal to:Use a crossbow to take game Exception: A properly licensed hunter 12 and older may use a crossbow during the November 15-30 firearm deer season.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_37141_37704_37707-31427--,00.html

[Swamp Ghost]

Come on is right, - I can't hold my xbow up even close to 3 minutes, - much let alone for infinity.

Next answer please.

(got to go to work, - looking forward to that next answer)

Kurt

But you can find a nice solid rest to place it on, just like a gun. And your crossbow can stay "loaded" for infinity, just like a gun.

[Kurt4253]

Oh, - & by the way, - don't say, - ya but you can use a rest with Xbow.

And why is that not a good answer, - because a rest only allows the xbow user to do what can be done with 80% let off compound. Which is be up & ready, - before, - being in the presence of game.

Kurt

[Swamp Ghost]

Oh, - & by the way, - don't say, - ya but you can use a rest with Xbow.

And why is that not a good answer, - because a rest only allows the xbow user to do what can be done with 80% let off compound. Which is be up & ready, - before, - being in the presence of game.

Kurt

The desperation continues.....

80% let-off compares to 100% let-off, how?

Not having to draw a crossbow compares to having to draw bow, how?

The advantages and differences are crystal clear. The MI DNR knows there is an advantage and that they are an entirely different weapon, this is why their use is restricted.

[MERGANZER]

That is absurd you can use a rest for hours if you choose you cannot hold a drwan bow back for hours. Plain and simple so I will use the "rest" issue in the argument. Its drawn and ready the entire hunt wich equals less movement and the ability to be ready at all times

Ganzer

[Riva]

Swamp.

For the record, MBH played a significant role in writing the current criteria that allows a person with a disability or perhaps one of its senior members was on drugs when he was quoted last week:

The 80 percent disability requirement began in 1993. That's when the bowhunters teamed up with disability advocates to push for restrictions. Their
intent was limit access to crossbow hunting. "A lot has changed since then," said Jerry Keck, with the Michigan Bowhunters Association, which helped write the original legislation.

As I said in a previous post, this subject (disabled hunters rights and the MBH position upon same) is probably worth its own thread. However: there is a correlation between the NJ opinion survey and my advocacy for disabled hunters rights, specifically: The survey illustrates that a significant number of hunters who are favorably disposed to crossbow expansion are also members of a structured sporting organization. As such, it simply begs the question that perhaps the same pro crossbow disposition/percentage exists amongst the rank and file members of the MBH?


Even if the MBH membership is unanimous it its anti-crossbow advocacy, it just seems very wrong that an organization so small (<5000 members??) can have such a profound influence on preventing so many disabled persons from participating as an equal during MI's archery season as part of its multi-pronged efforts to stunt unrestricted crossbow use.

[swoosh]

That is absurd you can use a rest for hours if you choose you cannot hold a drwan bow back for hours. Plain and simple so I will use the "rest" issue in the argument. Its drawn and ready the entire hunt wich equals less movement and the ability to be ready at all times

Ganzer

I hope to rest a crossbow on a big old fat doe:lol:

Then retire it;)

[Swamp Ghost]

Swamp.


As I said in a previous post, this subject (disabled hunters rights and the MBH position upon same) is probably worth its own thread. However: there is a correlation between the NJ opinion survey and my advocacy for disabled hunters rights, specifically: The survey illustrates that a significant number of hunters who are favorably disposed to crossbow expansion are also members of a structured sporting organization. As such, it simply begs the question that perhaps the same pro crossbow disposition/percentage exists amongst the rank and file members of the MBH?


Even if the MBH membership is unanimous it its anti-crossbow advocacy, it just seems very wrong that an organization so small (<5000 members??) can have such a profound influence on preventing so many disabled persons from participating as an equal during MI's archery season as part of its multi-pronged efforts to stunt unrestricted crossbow use.











there is a correlation between the NJ opinion survey and my advocacy for disabled hunters rights

This may or may not be the case. To push the survey as some sort of approval measuring stick for unrestricted crossbow use in the BOW season and then bait and switch the argument towards disabled hunter's rights is nothing more than a multi-pronged effort to legalize crossbows.

These tactics are exactly what the MBH are up against. To hammer one group for using the same tactics as another is a bit hypocritical. It does nothing but hurt the cause of the legitimately disabled MI hunter and their plight to level the playing field and access MI's BOW season.

As seen in the NJ survey the MBH's stand on unrestricted crossbow use is right inline with more than it's 5,000? members.

[Riva]

First off..it's my thread. I started it and, I can take it any direction I want. So there.:D

Secondly, if one simply takes the time and reviews the hundreds of post I have written on this Forum, you will observe that I have been steadfast in my advocacy for expansion of disabled peoples rights during the Michigan archery season. All you had to do was click a few times and there they are. Nowhere do I advocate unrestricted crossbow use. Your tactic of "guilt by association" is quite shortsighted, however; I do forgive you (this time only).

Third, I hope that my disabled rights advocacy is, in fact, a royal pain in the ass to MBH. That's because, in my opinion, their position is flat out wrong. And, I will work to hopefully change these rules that they publicly support, that exclude people from participating as an equal during Michigan's archery season---just so they can simply stunt consideration of unrestricted crossbow use. As I said previously, there's fighting fair and there's fighting dirty. In this regard, the MBH is fighting dirty. The is no honor in winning a dirty fight. You might win, but you'll aways have that skank all over ya.

And finally, here's where you and I lock horns... the word "legitimately", in this case, used in the context: "legitimately disabled" is shallow thinking and gives ne cramps. It insinuates that a person has to meet somebody else's criteria of the level of severity of his/her disability in order to be considered "legitimate." Look...a person is either disabled or they are not disabled. The nature and severity of one's disability is of absolutely no consequence so long that, if in the opinion of one's physician, that disability render the person unable to pull or hold a regular bow. "Legitimate"...give me frick'n break! :mad:

[Swamp Ghost]

First off..it's my thread. I started it and, I can take it any direction I want. So there.:D

Secondly, if one simply takes the time and reviews the hundreds of post I have written on this Forum, you will observe that I have been steadfast in my advocacy for expansion of disabled peoples rights during the Michigan archery season. All you had to do was click a few times and there they are. Nowhere do I advocate unrestricted crossbow use. Your tactic of "guilt by association" is quite shortsighted, however; I do forgive you (this time only).

Third, I hope that my disabled rights advocacy is, in fact, a royal pain in the ass to MBH. That's because, in my opinion, their position is flat out wrong. And, I will work to hopefully change these rules that they publicly support, that exclude people from participating as an equal during Michigan's archery season---just so they can simply stunt consideration of unrestricted crossbow use. As I said previously, there's fighting fair and there's fighting dirty. In this regard, the MBH is fighting dirty. The is no honor in winning a dirty fight. You might win, but you'll aways have that skank all over ya.

And finally, here's where you and I lock horns... the word "legitimately", in this case, used in the context: "legitimately disabled" is shallow thinking and sickens me. It insinuates that a person has to meet somebody else's criteria of a severity of his/her disability in order to be considered "legitimate." Look...a person is either disabled or they are not disabled. The nature and severity of one's disability is of absolutely no consequence so long that, if in the opinion of one's physician, that disability render the person unable to pull or hold a regular bow. "Legitimate"...give me frick'n break! :mad:

Sorry Riva, I simply don't buy it.

Time after time have seen you make excuses on why there SHOULD be unrestricted crossbow use, how there is no technological difference, how their is no advantage to using a crossbow. Would you like the quotes?

You are so blinded by your hatred of the MBH and it's stance that you are willing to throw MI BOWhunters under the proverbial bus to advance YOUR agenda.

No one is against the disabled using a crossbow, no one. But when you want to do away with ALL the criteria
required to establish disability or let someone not qualified to establish disability make the determination, it only hurts the very people you are trying to help.

Unfortunately establishing a disability isn't easy, just ask Workman's Comp.

[Riva]

Sorry Riva, I simply don't buy it.

Time after time have seen you make excuses on why there SHOULD be unrestricted crossbow use, how there is no technological difference, how their is no advantage to using a crossbow. Would you like the quotes?

You are so blinded by your hatred of the MBH and it's stance that you are willing to throw MI BOWhunters under the proverbial bus to advance YOUR agenda.

No one is against the disabled using a crossbow, no one. But when you want to required to establish disability or let someone not qualified to establish disability make the determination, it only hurts the very people you are trying to help.

Unfortunately establishing a disability isn't easy, just ask Workman's Comp.

Sorry swamp, you're busted on this one...Yes, I would like the quotes...tick tock tick tock...still waiting...tick tock tick tock still waiting....tick

I do not hate the MBH. I hate the criteria that they help to create and continue to support (in fact, now make even more strigent). And remember, they have an agenda too, just as I do. I happend to to believe that their agenda is flawed with regard to the criteria to allow a person with a disability to use a crossbow. I have no real quarrel with them other than that.

But I'm curious, swamp, tell me, if my agenda is flawed, how does having more disabled persons participating in the Michigan archery season be seen as hurting disabled persons? Hmmmm?

And, tell me how does having one's own personal physician be percieved as being unqualified to establish a disability? That bottom line is that your own doctor is the MOST qualified person to make the determination!

Finally, establishing a disability (and I'm happy to see that you discontinued your reference to "legitimate") is very easy. All you have to do is do what other states do in this regard. And that is, have an examination by your personal physician who detremines "if" you have a disability of a severe enough degree of severity that, in his/her professional opinion, render you unable to pull or hold a regular bow. No 80%, no 60%, no 5%, no nothing, other than your doctor says you can't pull or hold a bow.

Seems simple enough unless, of course, deep down, you're leery of what the number of people who potententially could now participate equally during the archery season might represent. I'm on record as saying if that number is merely one additional person, so be it. If that number results in one million, three million, five million, so be it!

You're not one of those people that are leery of that final number, are ya, swamp?

[Munsterlndr]

Once again I'll pose the simple question to you anti-crossbow folks. If there is such a substantial inherent advantage to using a crossbow, then why are the harvest success percentages virtually identical with vertical bow users?

and Adam, claiming that this is simply hiding behind statistics is a cop-out. We know that there is an inherent advantage to using a compound bow as opposed to using a wooden long bow or recurve, because all other factors being similar, hunters who use compounds have a higher success ratio. We know that there is an inherent advantage to using a firearm because firearms hunters have a higher success ratio. But that is not the case between vertical bow users and crossbow users. If there truly is an inherent advantage, why is there no corresponding increase in success ratio for crossbow hunters?

Pretty basic question, yet no one will provide the answer.

[NoWake]

Once again I'll pose the simple question to you anti-crossbow folks. If there is such a substantial inherent advantage to using a crossbow, then why are the harvest success percentages virtually identical with vertical bow users?

and Adam, claiming that this is simply hiding behind statistics is a cop-out. We know that there is an inherent advantage to using a compound bow as opposed to using a wooden long bow or recurve, because all other factors being similar, hunters who use compounds have a higher success ratio. We know that there is an inherent advantage to using a firearm because firearms hunters have a higher success ratio. But that is not the case between vertical bow users and crossbow users. If there truly is an inherent advantage, why is there no corresponding increase in success ratio for crossbow hunters?

Pretty basic question, yet no one will provide the answer.


Munster, you know where I stand on this issue but I will provide you with an answer that many probably are thinking but will not state it.

"The typical crossbow hunter is so lazy and inept with every other aspect of the hunt, that they cannot score more consistently even with the huge advantage a crossbow provides."

[Munsterlndr]

Munster, you know where I stand on this issue but I will provide you with an answer that many probably are thinking but will not state it.

"The typical crossbow hunter is so lazy and inept with every other aspect of the hunt, that they cannot score more consistently even with the huge advantage a crossbow provides."

Yeah, good one. :lol:

But then again a lot of the opponents feel that firearms hunters are lazy and inept too, yet despite their laziness and ineptness they manage as a group to have a higher success rate than vertical bow hunters do. So if the crossbow is so superior, then those lazy and inept firearms hunters who pick up a crossbow should still have a higher success rate then the dedicated, skilled vertical bowmen do. ;)

Unless of course, the fact of the matter is that there is no substantive advantage to using a crossbow. :lol:

Time for another picture. For those of you who don't know who this is, this is a picture of one of those "lazy and inept" crossbow hunters, (who if I understand it correctly was a vertical bow hunter for many years before giving a crossbow a try a few years ago.) His name is Mike Tonkovich, and he is the head of the Ohio DNR Big Game division and the guy who formulates Ohio Deer management policy. ;)

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc112/Munsterlndr/OhioDNR-1.jpg

[awshucks]

"The typical crossbow hunter is so lazy and inept with every other aspect of the hunt, that they cannot score more consistently even with the huge advantage a crossbow provides."

Shame on you! That's the most asinine post on this board, imho.

[Direwolfe]

Since there were so few postings in the other whitetail categories I opened this thread for the first time today.

After reading the first few posts I decided this deserved some popcorn! Please guys, keep it up. For those of us trained in logic, this is amusing as all-get-out. I'll hate to see it end, so promise when its locked down someone will start a new thread about returning muzzleloader season to sidelocks, roundball, and no optics.

[Tom (mich)]

The nature and severity of one's disability is of absolutely no consequence so long that, if in the opinion of one's physician, that disability render the person unable to pull or hold a regular bow.
So, playing devil's advocate here, and using your scenario whereby I only need a note from my doctor - I could get a note from my dermatologist, or dentist, that would stipulate my disability? Or would you limit the determination to a "real" doctor which would make enforcement impossible? Technically, any physician with prescriptive authority could give you a note, and they're pretty much handed out like candy.

[NoWake]

"The typical crossbow hunter is so lazy and inept with every other aspect of the hunt, that they cannot score more consistently even with the huge advantage a crossbow provides."

Shame on you! That's the most asinine post on this board, imho.


That statement wasn't my opinion on the matter. I was stating what others may be thinking to themselves.

[MERGANZER]

If there is no advantage lets place a rule that says the crossbow cannot be loaded or locked at full draw until you are shooting at the game you pursue.

Face it a crossbow is much easier to learn and become proficient with than a vertical bow is and the locked draw is a HUGE advantage. Weight means nothing to me you can rest it like a rifle the facts are facts how can you downplay the advantage?

Ganzer

[NoWake]

Munster, I am almost willing to bet that Mr. Tonkovich was shooting his crossrifle from the top of that hill in the background. If you look close I think you can see footprints in the snow where he walked across the field. :lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

Once again I'll pose the simple question to you anti-crossbow folks. If there is such a substantial inherent advantage to using a crossbow, then why are the harvest success percentages virtually identical with vertical bow users?

and Adam, claiming that this is simply hiding behind statistics is a cop-out. We know that there is an inherent advantage to using a compound bow as opposed to using a wooden long bow or recurve, because all other factors being similar, hunters who use compounds have a higher success ratio. We know that there is an inherent advantage to using a firearm because firearms hunters have a higher success ratio. But that is not the case between vertical bow users and crossbow users. If there truly is an inherent advantage, why is there no corresponding increase in success ratio for crossbow hunters?

Pretty basic question, yet no one will provide the answer.


Which states even keeps track of crossbow harvest success rates vs. BOW success rates? I'd be curious to see the numbers.

So harvest rates are the only measure of advantage? With that rationale we might as well have a 4 month long firearm season archery success rates have risen to the point where they are almost the same as firearms success rates.

Nice try Strawman.....

[swampstand]

Munsterlndr,

What do you really think would happen to the harvest figures if every bowhunter used a crossbow for just one season?

I'll tell you my opinion. I would have taken far more deer over the years with a crossbow in hand, it's that simple. And most of them would have been respectable bucks that were just outside my comfortable range with my vertical bow. This is just my opinion.

Don't crossbows have a flatter trajectory enabling you to shoot further distances and from a rested position? I'm no expert and I have never shot a crossbow. But they seem to be very powerful stealthy weapons that can shoot like a rifle inside bow range. And all this from a treestand with no mechanical movements or physical effort. Except for pulling the trigger of course.

If any of these advantages are true, then it's probable that more deer would fall. And it just may draw a whole lot more people into the woods for bow season looking to capitalize on an easy hunt. I still think that our bow season opener would be another 11-15. I mean don't you guys think there's a chance it could turn into a massive invasion of hunters. I know, I know, I'm paranoid. I need to relax and all the other comments made earlier. But I won't, not with this.

[Riva]

So, playing devil's advocate here, and using your scenario whereby I only need a note from my doctor - I could get a note from my dermatologist, or dentist, that would stipulate my disability? Or would you limit the determination to a "real" doctor which would make enforcement impossible? Technically, any physician with prescriptive authority could give you a note, and they're pretty much handed out like candy.

Good question. Did you know that under MI's current crossbow application process, the physical therapist evaluation could be signed by any licensed physician, including even a chiropractor. That proviso was recently removed so now, all that is required in Michigan is the physical therapist evaluation.

Under my program, there would be no physical therapist in any part of the process, but only a licensed physician. And, yes, it is possible that a person could go to say, their dermatologist, and have him/her conduct the examination. One has to remember though, the person became a medical doctor first, and a specialist (dermatologist) afterwards.

Can it happen? Sure. Will it happen? Probably not?
I know doctors pretty well and one crime they will never be arrested for is gambling! A physician simply has too much at risk, professionally, ethically, financially and reputation-wise to expose themselves to this kind of scrutiny. I can tell you with a 100% degree of certainty that my dermatologist would not perform the examination, giving the reason not that he's not qualified, but it does not fall under his medical specialty. As I said, there is just too much risk. Again, could it happen and would it be valid? Yes.

Take a look at the application for the State of Maryland. What I am suggesting for Michigan is a 100% mirror image of their policy and processes: http://www.dnr.state.md.us/download/crossbowpt.pdf

I hope everybody takes the time to review it. It make profound sense.

Again, http://www.dnr.state.md.us/download/crossbowpt.pdf

[Munsterlndr]

Which states even keeps track of crossbow harvest success rates vs. BOW success rates? I'd be curious to see the numbers.

So harvest rates are the only measure of advantage? With that rationale we might as well have a 4 month long firearm season

Nice try Strawman.....

I know Ohio, Georgia and I believe Tennessee have tracked Crossbow vs. Vertical bow success rates and I believe that Whit mentioned another state, maybe Virginia, that also had some data regarding the comparison between the two. In every case the success rate was either identical or else slightly higher for vertical bow users, putting to rest the idea that there is some inherent advantage.

And you'll note in my quote that I said I said that archery success rates have risen to the point where they are almost that of firearms hunters. There is still about a 4% variance, which shows that despite the large increase in success rate that occurred as compound bows became more prevalent, that they remain inferior to firearms.

Again, there is a difference between success rates between compounds and long bows and between vertical bows and firearms. These are measurable, tangible differences that can only be due to the superiority of one weapon or another. The same cannot be said to be true regarding the comparison of vertical bows to crossbows.

You guys are dancing around giving all sorts of excuses as to why you won't answer the question, so who is playing the strawman here?

Just give us a legitimate answer to the question, your failure to do so is starting to make your insistence upon the inherent superiority of the crossbow as being more fiction than fact. ;)

[Swamp Ghost]

You're not one of those people that are leery of that final number, are ya, swamp?

Not at all. Can you blame me for being leery of the criteria for allowing crossbow use as being the same criteria they use to issue handicap parking permits? How does it make you feel when "handicapped" folks park in their spots and leisurely stroll into the store.

Are they legitimately disabled?

Anyways this is way way off topic.

The bottom line is that the NJ survey was extremely flawed and at the end of the day, most hunters do not want unrestricted crossbow use in the BOW season.

It appears that some are employing your theory:

So when trumped by another hard number. What to do? Answer: Sort of agree with the other side and then quickly change the subject (see above). Actually, it's in the Strawman Manual, Chapter 4, page 36 specifically: "What to do when confronted with statistical accuracy?"

[Swamp Ghost]

I know Ohio, Georgia and I believe Tennessee have tracked Crossbow vs. Vertical bow success rates and I believe that Whit mentioned another state, maybe Virginia, that also had some data regarding the comparison between the two. In every case the success rate was either identical or else slightly higher for vertical bow users, putting to rest the idea that there is some inherent advantage.

And you'll note in my quote that I said I said that archery success rates have risen to the point where they are almost that of firearms hunters. There is still about a 4% variance, which shows that despite the large increase in success rate that occurred as compound bows became more prevalent, that they remain inferior to firearms.

Again, there is a difference between success rates between compounds and long bows and between vertical bows and firearms. These are measurable, tangible differences that can only be due to the superiority of one weapon or another. The same cannot be said to be true regarding the comparison of vertical bows to crossbows.

You guys are dancing around giving all sorts of excuses as to why you won't answer the question, so who is playing the strawman here?

Just give us a legitimate answer to the question, your failure to do so is starting to make your insistence upon the inherent superiority of the crossbow as being more fiction than fact. ;)

Munster, do you agree that determining actual harvest success rates requires careful consideration of many variables, including hours in the field, that no state currently tracks?

Find some data that breaks down bowhunter success rate/hr vs crossbow hunter success rate/hr and you may have something.

[Whit1]

Which states even keeps track of crossbow harvest success rates vs. BOW success rates? I'd be curious to see the numbers.


Here's some info to disgest, be sure to have the Pepacid handy......:lol: humor, all in good humor.

There is more out there.

1971

estimated licensed hunters: 74,758
estimated licensed archers: 19,947

1981
estimated licensed hunters: 231,948
estimated licensed archers (excluding crossbow hunters): 82,000
estimated licensed crossbow hunters: 11,400


Hunter numbers increased 310%
Archer numbers increased 411% (crossbow excluded)
Archer numbers increased 468% (crossbow included)

You can draw your own conclusions, but it is clear that archer numbers
were growing disproportionate to total hunter numbers, even without the
help of the crossbow hunter.

I hope this is what you were after. If you need anything else, you know
how to reach me.

Tonk


Michael J. Tonkovich, Ph.D.
Wildlife Research Biologist
ODNR, Division of Wildlife
360 E. State St.
Athens, OH 45701
v(740)589.9920 f(740)589.9925
mike.tonkovich@dnr.state.oh.us (mike.tonkovich@dnr.state.oh.us)



Kentucky Data
http://fw.ky.gov/navigation.asp?cid=559&NavPath=C151


Alabama and Crossbows
How long has Alabama allowed crossbows in the regular archery season? 3 years – The 2006-07 hunting season was the third year crossbows have been legal to use during archery season without a special permit.

Was the expansion smooth? There was a great deal of opposition from the state bowhunting organizations, but the general hunting public did not pose much opposition.

Have crossbows shown to be an effective recruitment and or retention tool to sustain hunter numbers? Not that I can tell. The number of bowhunters remains about the same as it has been for the past 15 years. Most crossbow hunters I spoke with were already bowhunters. They just wanted to try a crossbow. A few started using a crossbow because shoulder/arm injuries made using compound bows difficult. I have not talked to any crossbow hunters who started bowhunting because crossbows were made legal.

Have crossbows been a useful tool in management of the deer herd population? Again, not that I can tell.

And overall is the ADCNR pleased with crossbows in the regular archery season? Once the initial uproar of legalizing crossbows died down, the whole crossbow issue really has been a non-issue in my opinion. The number of bowhunters and the bowkill has not changed significantly.

Chris Cook
Wildlife Biologist/Deer Studies Project Leader
Alabama Division of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries
P.O. Box 993
1105 Bailey Drive
Demopolis, Alabama 36732
Telephone - (334) 289-8030
Fax - (334) 289-0214
e-mail - Chris.Cook@dcnr.alabama.gov (Chris.Cook@dcnr.alabama.gov)

Georgia Study Link
Georgia Crossbow Study

Georgia Crossbow Study Dispels Many Myths

By Bob McNitt

Following its decision to legalize hunting with crossbows, starting with the 2002 archery season, the State of Georgia's DNR has kept accurate records to reflect the impact the decision would have, on both the deer and the hunting community. Following the two-year study, the data collected dispelled several myths regarding the horizontal bow's impact on the resource and the hunting force.

In a report prepared by Nick Nicholson, Senior Wildlife Biologist for the DNR, the number of archery deer hunters and archery deer harvest increased significantly by 11.6-percent and 44.3-percent, respectively, during the 2003-04 season. Statewide, 36.7-percent of all deer hunters hunted with archery equipment during the 2003-04 season.

In 2003-04 there were about 9,300 additional archers, the majority of that increase being attributed to crossbow legalization. However, the data indicated that any additional deer harvest attributed to the legalization of crossbows was not significant at a statewide level. Nicholson notes, "If we assume all additional archers hunted with crossbows and the 0.49 deer per hunter harvest rate for crossbows is additive, then about 4,550 additional deer would be attributed to these new archery (crossbow) hunters."

The success rate for crossbows (0.49 deer/hunter) proved to be comparable to that of compound bows (0.51 deer/hunter). The survey indicates that 78.5-percent of archers use compounds. "It is less likely that a traditional archer would switch to a crossbow," Nicholson wrote. "Even if they did, the traditional archer success rate (0.46 deer/hunter) is only slightly lower than that of crossbow hunters. The data showed that older archers are more likely to report hunting with a crossbow. Archers over 50 years old were significantly more likely to report using a crossbow than archers under 50 years old."

Nicholson also notes that "The debate among hunters about legalization of crossbows is reminiscent of a similar debate on the 1977-78 legalization of compound bows. The technological leap from recurve bows to compound bows was much greater than the current move to crossbows. (Crossbows actually are more "primitive" than compound bows, having been around since the fourth century BC.) Crossbows provide the opportunity for older archers to participate in archery deer hunting longer. They also introduce additional hunters into the sport of archery. It is likely that many of them will seek increased archery hunting challenges and change to compound or recurve bows. Recruiting new archers and retaining older ones is a positive event for all hunters."

For more information visit the Georgia DNR website.
http://www.gadnr.org/index.html (http://www.gadnr.org/index.html)

http://www.realtree.com/community/n...tail.tpl?ID=709 (http://www.realtree.com/community/news-detail.tpl?ID=709)




I have more, but don't know how to put a pdf into a post.

[Whit1]

Munster, do you agree that determining actual harvest success rates requires careful consideration of many variables, including hours in the field, that no state currently tracks?


Actually that data is available. It's someplace in the information that I've gathered.........the problem is finding it.

I am reluctant to do copy/paste of information that I've found. That method could be called into question by those who are stridently opposed to crossbow inclusion and those who are unwilling to see the regulations for the disabled to use a crossbow........and yes those people are out there (see past NRC meeting minutes when the topic has come up).

Does anyone know how to put a pdf into a post. There is some real eyeopening data out there.

I've offered (in PMs) to email some of that data to a couple of MS members who are willing to go to the wall in opposing the easing of crossbow regs, but to date I have not had a taker.

My interest in this issue has nothing to do with a desire to pursue using a crossbow for deer hunting. As I've stated before I read the threads, as mods that's something we do, and became curious to see if the claims made by those in opposition to the easing of crossbow regs whether or not that involved the disabled or full crossbow inclusion, and to tell you the truth the reasons for opposition to either of these is very close and that is a fear of adding more hunters to the archery season, IMO, had an foundation in fact. I have found they do not.

Yes, the states where the data comes from are not Michigan. However, the demographics of deer hunters no matter where they live have strong similarities. When you look at the data from a percentage and per capita point of view the fears that crossbow inclusion will draw in "hundreds of thousands" of firearms deer hunters are totally unfounded. The quotations that I just used are in reference to an email that I received from a former board member of MBH. It's the same thing we've seen uttered in these crossbow discussions by MS members.

If, in the research that I've done, I had found a compelling, valid reason to exclude crossbows and/or not altering the regulations for the disabled to use a crossbow during MI's archery season I'd join you guys who are so strident in your anti-crossbow beliefs. I have found none.

[Munsterlndr]

Munsterlndr,

What do you really think would happen to the harvest figures if every bowhunter used a crossbow for just one season?

I'll tell you my opinion. I would have taken far more deer over the years with a crossbow in hand, it's that simple. And most of them would have been respectable bucks that were just outside my comfortable range with my vertical bow. This is just my opinion.

Don't crossbows have a flatter trajectory enabling you to shoot further distances and from a rested position? I'm no expert and I have never shot a crossbow. But they seem to be very powerful stealthy weapons that can shoot like a rifle inside bow range. And all this from a treestand with no mechanical movements or physical effort. Except for pulling the trigger of course.

If any of these advantages are true, then it's probable that more deer would fall. And it just may draw a whole lot more people into the woods for bow season looking to capitalize on an easy hunt. I still think that our bow season opener would be another 11-15. I mean don't you guys think there's a chance it could turn into a massive invasion of hunters. I know, I know, I'm paranoid. I need to relax and all the other comments made earlier. But I won't, not with this.

Swampstand -
According to all of the data that we have, nothing would happen to the harvest data if everyone used crossbows because the success rate is virtually identical. In Ohio 54% of the archery hunters use crossbows and the success percentage is virtually identical.

You are mistaken if you think that a crossbow is the hunting equivalent of a firearm. Those deer that you chose to pass on with your vertical bow, would likely have been passed on with a crossbow, too. The effective hunting range of a crossbow and most compounds is pretty much the same, roughly a 40 yard limit. We have had guys post in this forum about not hesitating about taking 80 yard shots with their compound. Does that mean that most archers would take 80 yard shots with a compound? Nope. Crossbow bolts lose velocity much faster than arrows do, so even if you could hit a deer at 60-70 yards it does not mean that you would have the energy or penetrating capability to cleanly harvest one. Crossbows are not firearms and it is still a close range weapon.

Also, despite what some would have you think, shooting a crossbow from a rest is much different than shooting a firearm from a rest. Unless they are physically incapable of doing so, my guess is that most crossbow hunters are going to pick up the crossbow and mount it to their shoulder. It has limbs sticking out 18" or so on either side and if you tip the crossbow at any sort of an angle, you are likely to have a limb hit the rest. Not only is this going to blow the shot but it can actually be a dangerous situation in some cases. Why take the chance? Instead you are going to put the crossbow to your shoulder making about the same amount of movement as drawing a vertical bow, except that with a vertical bow the movement is primarily on a narrow vertical plane which is a lot easier to hide behind a vertical tree than it is for a crossbow which is three feet wide and sticks out around the edges of a tree.

As has been mentioned previously, both verticals and crossbows have their own set of advantages and disadvantages. Ever taken a second or third shot with your vertical bow? I have many times. Not gonna happen with a crossbow. Ever miss a deer and not have it realize where the arrow came from? Not gonna happen with the noise generated by a crossbow.

Again if they are such an easy, powerful stealth weapon, why is there not a significant increase in success rate when hunting with one?

[Swamp Ghost]

Again if they are such an easy, powerful stealth weapon, why is there not a significant increase in success rate when hunting with one?

The same reason there is virtually no difference between in harvest success rates in longbows, recurves and compounds. As you would like us to believe, there is a difference between success rates between compounds and long bows

Success rates are not the end all, be all, measurement of advantage.

[swoosh]

Success rates are not the end all, be all, measurement of advantage.

I love to respond to that logic, but I cannot:lol:

[MERGANZER]

I have been bowhunting for over 20 years. I have taken my fair share of deer with bow, rifle, shotgun and muzzleloader. I don't know if I am an average bowhunter below average or above when it comes to skill but I do know if I could have back a handful of hunts and have a crossbow in my treestand there would be a few more slam dunk trophies on my wall right now. So as far as this data goes you can toss it to the trash can IMHO because I know what I know based on over 20 years of being in those situations. A well rested crossbow with a scope that is deadly accurate to 40 yds is a big advantage over the guy holding back a vertical bow for even 20 seconds. If you disagree then you must not have ever had to wait at full draw for that animal to take one more step or turn around and present an ethical shot. with a crossbow you have all day or at least till shooting hours end.

Success rates are funny, I know guys who hunt rifle only and have never harvested a deer. Not sure if that makes the rifle inferior to the guys I know that shoot deer every year with their bow or not.

Ganzer

[Munsterlndr]

The same reason there is virtually no difference between in harvest success rates in longbows, recurves and compounds. As you would like us to believe,

Success rates are not the end all, be all, measurement of advantage.

Your mistaken Swamp, there is a difference in the harvest rates between longbow and compound bow users. Just look at Whit's Georgia data for verification.

Success rates may not be the be all, end all measurement but they are a quantifiable data set that can be measured, unlike the anecdotal evidence that some continue to insist on providing. "I would have been able to harvest that buck if I only had a crossbow!" Says who? There are plenty of deer that I have either missed or never managed to get a shot at while hunting with a rifle. You guys make it sound like a crossbow is some kind of magic laser weapon that will drop a deer a mile away.

We have measurable data that shows that there is no inherent advantage.

We have the testimony of one of the most respected state game officials in the country, who is from a state where crossbows have been legal for over 20 years, who says that there is no difference in the success rate and that crossbows make a positive contribution to managing deer populations.

We have data from 13 states that have legalized crossbows that have shown that there has been no negative impacts from their legalization.

How long are some of you guys going to keep insisting that the world is flat? :lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

Your mistaken Swamp, there is a difference in the harvest rates between longbow and compound bow users. Just look at Whit's Georgia data for verification.

Success rates may not be the be all, end all measurement but they are a quantifiable data set that can be measured, unlike the anecdotal evidence that some continue to insist on providing. "I would have been able to harvest that buck if I only had a crossbow!" Says who? There are plenty of deer that I have either missed or never managed to get a shot at while hunting with a rifle. You guys make it sound like a crossbow is some kind of magic laser weapon that will drop a deer a mile away.

We have measurable data that shows that there is no inherent advantage.

We have the testimony of one of the most respected state game officials in the country, who is from a state where crossbows have been legal for over 20 years, who says that there is no difference in the success rate and that crossbows make a positive contribution to managing deer populations.

We have data from 13 states that have legalized crossbows that have shown that there has been no negative impacts from their legalization.

How long are some of you guys going to keep insisting that the world is flat? :lol:

How long are YOU guys going to deny the obvious?

And you'll note in my quote that I said I said that archery success rates have risen to the point where they are almost that of firearms hunters.

I submit that the success rates of traditional and compound bows are within 1%.

It works both ways.

Here is a government definition for you...Ohio, defines a bow as:


Longbow or BOW means a device for propelling an arrow by means of limbs, and a string which is hand held, hand drawn, and held in a drawn position by hand or a hand held mechanical release.

And here is how they define crossbow:


CROSSBOW means a device for propelling an arrow by means of traverse limbs and a string, mounted on a stock at least twenty-five inches in length, and having a working safety.

Ohio may ALLOW crossbows in the archery season in Ohio....but even they do not claim they are the same.

One could argue that crossbows have flooded the woods in OH, since they outnumber BOWhunters 2:1. It's clear that they see an advantage.

You cannot take Ohio's success with crossbows and automatically translate it to all 50 states. To ignore the state by state situational specifics is careless and clearly motivated by a political agenda, not a biological one.

The fact that OH has a 7 day shotgun season has a HUGE bearing on the harvest results.

The only thing worse than biased biologists making assumptions about crossbow harvests is even more biased crossbow advocates trying to validate them.

Crossbows have no business in the BOW season.

Any able bodied hunter who wants to hunt in BOWseason can do so, legally, in 50 states. If he picks up a bow.

That's the bottomline.......

It's been fun

[swoosh]

Cross bow in MI is really only about 1 thing and 1 thing only

Deer managemnet
Season Change

Whatever it is, the MI deer hunter has one issue with all things in our deer world.

FEAR

Fear someone else will shoot their deer;)

[Munsterlndr]

I submit that the success rates of traditional and compound bows are within 1%.

One could argue that crossbows have flooded the woods in OH, since they outnumber BOWhunters 2:1. It's clear that they see an advantage.


Based on what, is that a guess? According to the Georgia study that Whit posted above they found a 5% disparity between longbow (.46) users and compound (.51) users, a greater disparity than there was between longbow and crossbow(.49) users.

One could also argue that compounds have flooded the woods in pretty much every state, since they outnumber longbows 4:1. It's clear that they see an advantage in using a compound.


You cannot take Ohio's success with crossbows and automatically translate it to all 50 states. To ignore the state by state situational specifics is careless and clearly motivated by a political agenda, not a biological one.


Crossbow hunters do not have a 2:1 majority in Ohio, there is almost parity with crossbow hunters about 4% greater than vertical bow hunters. (Poof! there goes another flawed conclusion).

How about if you take the success in Ohio, Georgia, Kentucky, Arkansas, Wyoming and all of the rest of the 13 states that have legalized crossbows without any problems occurring? Do you see a trend here?

So the earth is round in those 13 States but it remains flat in Michigan? Why? Because we're different! :lol:

(Here is a clue for those that are lacking one, it's not the curvature of the earth that differs in Michigan it's the openess of the mind. ;))

[MERGANZER]

Cross bow in MI is really only about 1 thing and 1 thing only

Deer managemnet
Season Change

Whatever it is, the MI deer hunter has one issue with all things in our deer world.

FEAR

Fear someone else will shoot their deer;)


Thats absurd! Cmon you gotta do better than that! I support the youth hunts and other hunts where people will shoot as you refer to it as "my deer". I do not feel that there is a deer out there that is "mine" and I will be the first to shake your hand and help you track drag and load up any deer you shoot legally regardless of what season or the size of the rack! Lets not make this something it isn't. This is not an issue of who shoots a deer and who does not.

Simple question is if crossbows do not offer an advantage why are people pushing so hard to get them legal? Pick up a bow and practice it isn't asking too much.

Ganzer

[Tom (mich)]

We have measurable data that shows that there is no inherent advantage.
Just to be an antagonist - no, you don't have data that shows there is no inherent advantage. What you do have is data that shows the harvest rates are equivalent - you choose to define "advantage", an inherently non-quantifiable term, in terms of harvest rates. Defining "advantage" will always be subjective.

And, yes, I realize that no one has offered a data point to the contrary, so this may be the best there is.

Not everything in life can be measured.....

[wally-eye]

Thats absurd! Cmon you gotta do better than that! I support the youth hunts and other hunts where people will shoot as you refer to it as "my deer". I do not feel that there is a deer out there that is "mine" and I will be the first to shake your hand and help you track drag and load up any deer you shoot legally regardless of what season or the size of the rack! Lets not make this something it isn't. This is not an issue of who shoots a deer and who does not.

Simple question is if crossbows do not offer an advantage why are people pushing so hard to get them legal? Pick up a bow and practice it isn't asking too much.

Ganzer



If they offer no advantage then why are people pushing so hard to "keep" them illegal for all to use???????????????????????

[Riva]

Cross bow in MI is really only about 1 thing and 1 thing only

Deer management
Season Change

Whatever it is, the MI deer hunter has one issue with all things in our deer world.

FEAR

Fear someone else will shoot their deer;)


You know, there is some thruth to that statement and, it is perhaps the subliminal underpinning of much, if not most, of the anti-crossbow advocacy. It's not all bad and, frankly, it's part of our competitive human nature, mine included. Still, most would not admit to harboring these sort of feelings because it would appear selfish and trite, but deep down it does exists.

If, hypothetically, the firearm season preceded the archery season, I happen to believe that the anti-crossbow advocacy would be virtually non-existent, particularly in the context of what I stated above.

Think about it.

[swoosh]

Thats absurd! Cmon you gotta do better than that! I support the youth hunts and other hunts where people will shoot as you refer to it as "my deer". I do not feel that there is a deer out there that is "mine" and I will be the first to shake your hand and help you track drag and load up any deer you shoot legally regardless of what season or the size of the rack! Lets not make this something it isn't. This is not an issue of who shoots a deer and who does not.

Simple question is if crossbows do not offer an advantage why are people pushing so hard to get them legal? Pick up a bow and practice it isn't asking too much.

Ganzer

Because some want too
Why do you care what weapon someone uses?

BTW I think xbows are about worthless, I hate them for hunting, but I think folks should have a choice;)

One thing that bugs most(prehaps not you) is they think more people will hunt during the archery season.

+ more pressure and lessons a chance for them to get "their" deer;)

[Hungry Wolf]

You know, there is some thruth to that statement and, it is perhaps the subliminal underpinning of much, if not most, of the anti-crossbow advocacy. It's not all bad and, frankly, it's part of our competitive human nature, mine included. Still, most would not admit to harboring these sort of feelings because it would appear selfish and trite, but deep down it does exists.

If, hypothetically, the firearm season preceded the archery season, I happen to believe that the anti-crossbow advocacy would be virtually non-existent, particularly in the context of what I stated above.

Think about it.


Wow Riva- Now I'm laying on a couch in your office and your psychoanalyzing me... Should I also mention that my mommey didn't give me enough attention when I was little? Could that be a reason that I don't support unrestricted crossbow use? :D

Seriously though- Many sportsmen and women on here are involved in getting many new and young hunters involved in the outdoors- even the anti-crossbow crowd. If fact I'd put my efforts against those who are only dangling a crossbow on a stick. I don't think we'd be doing these things if we were afraid of someone else shooting 'our' deer. :sad:

[Swamp Ghost]

Because some want too
Why do you care what weapon someone uses?

BTW I think xbows are about worthless, I hate them for hunting, but I think folks should have a choice;)

One thing that bugs most(prehaps not you) is they think more people will hunt during the archery season.

+ more pressure and lessons a chance for them to get "their" deer;)

You know I thought I was done with this, but somethings border on the ridiculous.

I would have absolutely no problem with sharing the woods with every firearm hunter in the entire state of MI during BOWseason, if they were using a BOW.

Every resident and non-resident hunter in the state of MI can hunt deer starting Oct. 1. Instead of buying a bow and giving it a shot, they rally around the thought of ALLOWING another weapon into the BOWseason.

The thought of allowing able-bodied MI hunters that have no desire to become a BOWhunter the ability to take part in BOWseason does not sit very well with me. And by the looks of the NJ survey it doesn't sit well with the majority of hunters.

My last post on the subject, I swear :lol:

[swoosh]

You know I thought I was done with this, but somethings border on the ridiculous.

I would have absolutely no problem with sharing the woods with every firearm hunter in the entire state of MI during BOWseason, if they were using a BOW.

Every resident and non-resident hunter in the state of MI can hunt deer starting Oct. 1. Instead of buying a bow and giving it a shot, they rally around the thought of ALLOWING another weapon into the BOWseason.

The thought of allowing able-bodied MI hunters that have no desire to become a BOWhunter the ability to take part in BOWseason does not sit very well with me. And by the looks of the NJ survey it doesn't sit well with the majority of hunters.

My last post on the subject, I swear :lol:

LOL All says one thing, and you know as well as I why:coolgleam

BTW it's Archery Season;)
Here is my last word from Yoda

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering

[Riva]

Wow Riva- Now I'm laying on a couch in your office and your psychoanalyzing me... Should I also mention that my mommy didn't give me enough attention when I was little? Could that be a reason that I don't support unrestricted crossbow use? :D

Seriously though- Many sportsmen and women on here are involved in getting many new and young hunters involved in the outdoors- even the anti-crossbow crowd. If fact I'd put my efforts against those who are only dangling a crossbow on a stick. I don't think we'd be doing these things if we were afraid of someone else shooting 'our' deer. :sad:

This thread is starting to run out of spit so, I thought I would lighten it up at bit before some beneficent moderator pulls the plug on it.

You speak of psychoanalyzing....I had been feeling down for so long that I finally decided to seek the aid of a psychiatrist.

I went there, lay on the couch, spilled mys guts then waited for the profound wisdom of the psychiatrist to make me feel better.

The psychiatrist asked me a few questions, took some notes then sat thinking in silence for a few minutes with a puzzled look on his face.

Suddenly, he looked up with an expression of delight and said, "Um, I think your problem is low self-esteem. It is very common among losers.":lol::lol::lol:

Seriously though....The battle for unrestricted use of crossbows should be fought on its merits, and may the best team win. However; the battle for expanding the rights for the disabled has to fought in your heart and conscience. That's because for every person that cannot hold or pull a regular bow, yet does not meet Michigan's silly disability criteria enacted 18 years ago, we all become a player of the losing team.

Say what you will about the effectiveness, lack of effectiveness, "cherished traditions", similarities and differences, overcrowding under-crowding.. whatever...it is a meaningless drivel if we do not allow people the opportunity to participate equally in the same activity..in this case, the archery season.

Sometime you just got to do the right thing. This, is the right thing!

[wildcoy73]

Some keep saying this change for crossbows was brought on by lazy gun hunters, I have yet to see a lazy gun hunter putting up the fight that us bowhunter are putting up for this change. I believe the gun hunters could care less about this change. I am an avid bowhunter that would rather give up my gun before the bow, and I am also a firm believer in the unrestricted use of crossbows for all, as are many of my fellow bow hunters.
So we do need to get this idea of this being for a gun hunter. The issue -is between bowhunters. So lets face the fact that if not passed this year it will be passed in the near futurei can not wait for that day.

[Munsterlndr]

Just to be an antagonist - no, you don't have data that shows there is no inherent advantage. What you do have is data that shows the harvest rates are equivalent - you choose to define "advantage", an inherently non-quantifiable term, in terms of harvest rates. Defining "advantage" will always be subjective.

And, yes, I realize that no one has offered a data point to the contrary, so this may be the best there is.

Not everything in life can be measured.....

Ok Tom, I'll grant you that point. Would you be satisfied if I re-worded my statement to say that there is quantifiable data that indicates that the use of a crossbow does not increase the hunters rate of success in harvesting a deer and further that there is no substantive data showing the contrary?

As I have mentioned, there are both benefits and detriments to using a crossbow as opposed to a vertical bow. Whether the benefits outweigh the negatives is up to the individual hunter to decide and it's why some hunters in States like Ohio choose to one and others choose to use the other. The point of debate is whether there is an overwhelming benefit to using a crossbow, that is not off-set by the accompanying negatives and which would give crossbow hunters an overall advantage over vertical bow users.

It is my contention that the advantages found in a crossbow are offset by the disadvantages, to the point where there is no inherent or overwhelming advantage of one over the other.

The data that we have regarding harvest success rates shows no difference between the two weapons. After looking at that data, one can reasonably conclude that if some hunters switched from using vertical bows to crossbows, that there would be no substantive increase in the overall harvest numbers. One can also make the assumption that if an equal number of new vertical bow users were recruited as the number of new crossbow hunters that might be recruited with the liberalization of crossbow rules, that the impact should be identical.

We have lost 70,000 bow hunters in Michigan in the last decade. It seems like there should be ample room to increase the ranks of archery hunters by those who are attracted to the sport by the opportunity to use a crossbow. One wonders whether those who oppose crossbows are also vocal in their opposition of MBH and MTB's recruiting efforts? If they are advocating adding an increased number of vertical bow hunters, yet oppose allowing archery numbers to increase through the use of crossbows, it seems that any concerns regarding too many hunters in the woods or a negative impact on the resource would seem to be somewhat hyperbolic. ;)

[Zarathustra]

I personally have no problems with crossbow use in any season.

But I do understand the feelings of those who disagree. I would suggest the creation of another late archery season from Jan 1 - Jan 31 where any bow can be used (crossbows too). I hunted Ohio for years, and their archery season runs into January.

Yes it can be awfully cold that time of year, but it is a good time to tag a deer. And most bucks have not shed by then.

Even if the season was antlerless-only, that would be good too. It still gives some time to crossbow users who don't want to use them during gun season.

This gives more opportunity to all bow hunters, and it doesn't infringe on any of the existing seasons.

[Kurt4253]

Just to be an antagonist - no, you don't have data that shows there is no inherent advantage. What you do have is data that shows the harvest rates are equivalent - you choose to define "advantage", an inherently non-quantifiable term, in terms of harvest rates. Defining "advantage" will always be subjective.

And, yes, I realize that no one has offered a data point to the contrary, so this may be the best there is.

Not everything in life can be measured.....

Sorry but that's not quite true. When comparing the modern compound to the crossbow there is measurable data that shows no inherent advantage.

Kinetic energy = little or no difference
Arrow speed (FPS) = little or no difference
Effective range (with lethal force) little or no difference
Shot conditions = NO different (shot MUST be absolutely clear of obstruction)

Equals no inherent advantage RECORDED as data.

Kurt

[Tom (mich)]

Sorry but that's not quite true. When comparing the modern compound to the crossbow there is measurable data that shows no inherent advantage.

Kinetic energy = little or no difference
Arrow speed (FPS) = little or no difference
Effective range (with lethal force) little or no difference
Shot conditions = NO different (shot MUST be absolutely clear of obstruction)

Equals no inherent advantage RECORDED as data.

Kurt
Again, you're choosing to pick and choose data points that you decide define "advantage". You've chosen four relative to the performance of the machinery itself, but left out many, many intangible factors that one could contribute to "advantage".

To restate your point - viewed SOLELY from a mechanical perspective, the data suggests there is no inherent benefit to using a crossbow. One this point, I agree 100%.