Medically Imprudent = Disabled?

[Riva]

Here's the skinny...I have neighbor that wants to go deer bow hunting up at my place next October. The trouble is, he's got a bad ticker--I mean a REALLY bad ticker..2 bypasses, 2 heart attacks, a stent and chest pains all the time. Not to be callous, but this guy is so close to the Promised Land, he doesn't buy green bananas!

Well, he went to his doc last week and the doc told him that he thought that it would be "medically imprudent" for him to pull a bow. In other words, what the doc was saying, "You can go right ahead but it's probably going to aggravate your serious heart condition and perhaps even kill you".

So, my neighbor thinks that a crossbow would be an option and the doc, after learning of the functionality of the crossbow and the fact that someone else would be cocking the crossbow for my neighbor, seemed to agree that a crossbow would be a reasonable accommodation in his circumstance. Trouble is, he just plain doesn't qualify under the DNR’s current criteria.

My question to you is this..and just answer by posting either yes or no.

Should a person be able to hunt with a crossbow during the archery season if you personal physical deems that it would be "medically imprudent" for you to pull a long-,or compound bow yet you do not meet the current DNR criteria? When considering your answer, does the fact that your doctor states that it would be medically imprudent for you to pull and/or hold regular bow as it being tantamount to a having disability?

What sayeth ye?

[wally-eye]

I say you wouldn't be much of a true sportsman if you said he shouldn't be allowed to use a crossbow..............

100% YES without even thinking about it.......

[Jumpshootin']

It is up to you whether you want to hunt with him or not regardless of the legalities involved. There is another way to look at this as I have went through with two different and former hunting partners.
Both were fellas that I hunted with since we were teenagers. Both when approx. 45 years old were well over 300lbs. with uncontrollable high blood pressure. Neither could walk a flight of stairs without turning red and double over huffing and puffing. Neither could set the fork down and walk away from a table. Yet both always wanted to go hunting with me and my dogs.
It got to a point where I was babysitting these guys. When I finally told them to get in shape or find another passtime I was told,"What a better place to die but in the woods."
But what neither of these self-absorbed "friends" took into account was that they were laying on me the possiblility that I would be the one who would have to try to get their 300lbs + immobile body to safety. Or that I would be the one trying CPR on a 300lbs. slob that would likely had peed, pooped, and puked all over during the heart attack.
I would never lay that on a friend, and I didn't appreciate them doing it to me.

[Socks]

I say it's ok for the crossbow.

[HUBBHUNTER]

Yes Sir, All The Way

[beervo2]

There's no way he should be turned down a permit, & if he is there should be a ADA lawsuit against the state, problem is without a miracle he would probably be in a better place hunting before it's settled!!!!

[eddiejohn4]

I think all should be able to use a crossbow ,disabled or not.

As for your friend I hope he can get out there as we are on this planet for such a short time, that to participate in nature while here is a must.I would do all I could for a friend that has special needs and do, as one of my hun ting partners is a quadrapalegic.

[marty]

He should be already hunting with one now. I say yes 100%. My friends dad who's 74 had cancer in his stomach and after all the chemo and radiation he's still not his old self. My bud would just love for his dad to hunt with him. Last time he tried for a permit he was turn down cause of the stupid disabilty percentage. This should be a no brainer:mad:

[olliek]

Well, I`m there now!! I`m 67, diagnosed with cancer in October 07, Had 1/2 of my guts removed at U of M the first of Nov, got 3 to4 yrs maybe and still can not get a permit.
The legislature better get going soon or I`ll spend another season watching the deer from my front porch. At least I`m luckey enough to have a front yard and 85 acres to watch the critters go by.
Lets `get er done`, Dave.

[Paul Thompson]

I can go both ways here, yes the law needs to be changed or tweeked, and he has the right to die hunting if he wants, Dirty Harry would say, "A man's got to know his limitations". If he want's to see the sun rise everyday, he needs to listen to his Doctor, and stay home.

[Whit1]

. If he want's to see the sun rise everyday, he needs to listen to his Doctor, and stay home.


I'd rather go hunting or fishing and die with my boots on.

[beervo2]

I'd rather go hunting or fishing and die with my boots on.
__________________
Whit1
I hear that Whit1....:D

[marty]

I'd rather go hunting or fishing and die with my boots on.


right on whit;)

[Wildwood_Deckers]

does the fact that your doctor states that it would be medically imprudent for you to pull and/or hold regular bow as it being tantamount to a having disability?

What sayeth ye?

For one, the the doctor would have to reword his professional opinion.... Prudent, simply means unwise, not that it can't be done.... If it was worded more along the lines as he is medically unable to do so... then that might make a difference.... I'm not real familiar with the disability issue.... However, in my opinion, he should be able to use a crossbow....

Clyde

[Paul Thompson]

I believe,,, if I remember right,,, that the permit is for a predetermined group of disabilities, the DNR form is filled out by your Doctor, turned over to a Physical Therapist to verify after you have gone through PT. If you fail PT, you get your cross bow. The rules do not cover heart patients if I remember right, don't quote me here. I tried to get a permit from my Chiropractor, due to a shoulder that keeps coming out of socket, and still does. Without going through therapy, it was pointless, so I learned to draw my bow back differently.

[averageguy]

Well, I`m there now!! I`m 67, diagnosed with cancer in October 07, Had 1/2 of my guts removed at U of M the first of Nov, got 3 to4 yrs maybe and still can not get a permit.
The legislature better get going soon or I`ll spend another season watching the deer from my front porch. At least I`m luckey enough to have a front yard and 85 acres to watch the critters go by.
Lets `get er done`, Dave.
In that position, with my own 85 acres, I think I would hunt with what ever I pleased. And as already stated, everyone should be allowed to use a crossbow, especially a person with ANY condition that a Dr. says makes it a risk to pull a bow back. I hope the 3 to 4 yrs turns out to be alot more for you.:)

[Kurt4253]

Riva

In the first place, I think that it would be imprudent of the doctor to give his blessing for your friend to hunt at all. And I certainly don't say that to be callous ether, - but from a professional medical stand point there are far greater things to be concerned about then the weapon. Right out the gate the adrenalin rush associated with hunting would/should be of greater concern to a doctor for his patient in the kind of condition your friend is in, - then the equipment he intends to hunt with. Not to mention other physical exerting things associated with hunting that the doctor should be more concerned with.

Again, not to be callous, but I would think, especially in this day & age of law suits, it would be imprudent of a prudent doctor to advise hunting at all.

However, - if the man is bound & determined to hunt, - then of course he should be allowed to do so with a crossbow. - But, then again, - if crossbow was unrestricted in the FIRST place, - then your friend could simply make the "choice" from a "self aware" decision of "his own" medical condition, - without putting the doctor on the spot to OK his going hunting, - which could lead to a law suit from the family - for advising an OK on an activity - that in & of its self puts the man at risk.

Full inclusion would put the "choice" of your friend, - squarely on his shoulders - as a "personal" choice & would remove ALL possibility of ANY law suit of ANY kind.

NO ADA law suit, - NO medical malpractice law suit !!! --- Everyone goes home happy, - AND, - your friend (possibly) goes to the grave, - doing what he wants, - as a matter of "personal" CHOICE - rather then as a matter of dictation of law &/or bad advice.

Kurt

[swampbuck]

:yeahthat:

[boehr]

The case and/or situation really doesn't matter. There are examples all over the place where a person should be able to use a crossbow and where they shouldn't be able to use a crossbow mixed right in with the cheaters out there too under the current law. The law is the law and if you don't like the law then work to get it changed.

Again my opinion for a long time is crossbows should be a legal weapon period, no permit required.

[One Eye]

The case and/or situation really doesn't matter. There are examples all over the place where a person should be able to use a crossbow and where they shouldn't be able to use a crossbow mixed right in with the cheaters out there too under the current law. The law is the law and if you don't like the law then work to get it changed.

Again my opinion for a long time is crossbows should be a legal weapon period, no permit required.

Are you saying that since it is hard to enforce, then just remove the regulation? I could say that about half the regulation book. Why have rules at all??? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Dan

[Riva]

Are you saying that since it is hard to enforce, then just remove the regulation? I could say that about half the regulation book. Why have rules at all??? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Dan

Dan, Dan, Dan:

There you go again; arguing out of emotion and not out of fact. Where does this say anything about somebody's inability to enforce anything??

My interpretation of Boehr's reply was that there are many people in many situations that should be able to use a crossbow. Currently, the law does not permit them to do so and, by participating, they would be breaking the law. His response is simply; if you don't like the law, work to get it changed. Using my original example, if my pal with the bad heart uses a crossbow and has not obtained a permit through due course, he's breaking the law.

There is ample historical evidence of changing laws because they simply fail to work. Perhaps the best example is the 18th and 21st amendments to the US Constitution.

[boehr]

Are you saying that since it is hard to enforce, then just remove the regulation? I could say that about half the regulation book. Why have rules at all??? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Dan

I don't get what you are talking about either. As for enforcement, currently if you have a permit under the current rules you are legal. If you don't have a permit under the current rules you are illegal. Doesn't seem too hard to me. If you want to put spin on what I posted then spin this, naw, never mind. I don't care what your opinion is on this matter, your enttitled to it as I am mine.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

As for half the regulation book, I can also understand why you would think that too.:rolleyes::hide:

[GWPguy]

I think all should be able to use a crossbow ,disabled or not.



I thought everyone could use a crossbow.

Nov 15 - Nov 30

[swampbuck]

You guys who are oppose to crossbows for everyone in archery season crack me up. You have thrown out every excuse but still no sound scientific reason. Maybe you dont have one.:dizzy:

Lets refer back to a previos post from bradymsu,



"I'll be very open and honest with everyone here. Our bottom line is to increase public participation in outdoor activities. It's good for the state's economy, it's good for the DNR and their conservation programs, it's good for our district in northern Michigan, and it's good in the general sense for public health and welfare. It would be far easier for Joel Sheltrown as a legislator to bury his head in the sand and not invite personal attacks on his ethics by bascially doing nothing productive on natural resource issues. Plenty of other elected officals and bureaucrats are doing that already. That's not what he's about.

We have no problem with anyone opposing expanded crossbow use provided they have solid data showing how it would create negetive management impact. But that data has been absent from the objections to crossbow liberalization so far. Instead all we've seen are false personal attacks and exaggerated warnings with no solid data to back them up."

[sputty]

Riva, are you for making crossbows legal for everyone? Or are you for amending the current law for disabled hunters? Just curious.

[awshucks]

"You guys who are oppose to crossbows for everyone in archery season crack me up. You have thrown out every excuse but still no sound scientific reason. Maybe you dont have one.:dizzy:"

I read on another forum today that Mi bowhunters are losing a week in Oct to gun season in zone 3, bowhunters aren't taking enough deer. Same thing supposedly happened last year in Mn. bang or twang??

[Bellyup]

If I had a close friend, such as the one Riva experessed his question on, the law would not be an issue. It would the mans choice as to what he wanted to use, and legalities be dammed. Yes, it would be breaking the law, but there is also the law of nature. And our US Govt is not allowed to meddle in these laws.

They have foundations based on this very principal. Make a Wish Foundation is one of them. They grant dying folks with one last wish. I would think Riva would be doing this man a HUGE favor by allowing him to hunt deer with a crossbow on his property.

I bet if you asked you would get some volunteers to keep a watch on the border of your property in case there is someone coming around to spoil a dying mans last request.

Sometimes everyone simply needs to forget the politics, and allow nature to run its course. I feel it would be imoral to issue a violation of any sort to either Riva or his friend should e choose to take this man on a hunt. I know to most CO's and Police Officers there is no opinion allowed in laws, it is black and white. That is just to bad and I am in complete disagreement with that sort of judgements. Perhaps that is why I am not a CO or policeman. Common sense would prevail way to many times...

[Riva]

Riva, are you for making crossbows legal for everyone? Or are you for amending the current law for disabled hunters? Just curious.

What is of significance is the official position of the State of Michigan surrounding it providing maximum opportunity to each of its citizens within the context of managing the resource. If we feel, that the State is somehow difficient in its iterpretation of maximizing opportunity within the context of managing the resource, one must be proactive to seek resolution in those matters.

Accordingly, I have chosen to be proactive soleley regarding the discussion to consider an expansion of the criteria that will allow a person with a disability to hunt with a crossbow. Not that I do not have an opinion on the issues regarding unrestricted use of crossbows however; my singular area of fucus at this time is to resolve the discrimination that currently exists affecting persons with disabilities.

There are some that argue that unrestricted use will negate any need to address the disability issues. Perhaps they are correct however; that is an entirely different hill to climb versus my agenda. I do wish those pursuing unrestricted use for crossbow, good luck in their endeavors which, like mine, is certain to be difficult.

[eddiejohn4]

GWPguy:lol::lol::lol:. why yes they are, and in my opinion they should also during bow as they are indeed a bow.