Thoughts Wanted on Crossbow Proposal [Archive] - The Michigan Sportsman Forums

DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI

03-31-2008, 06:08 PM

I am the committee aide for State Rep. Joel Sheltrown, the chair of the House Natural Resources Committee. Recently, Rep. Sheltrown introduced HB 5741 due to hunter demand and because no meetings had taken place with the Crossbow workgroup the NRC set up last summer.

The NRC's Crossbow Workgroup has met after HB 5741 was introduced and will meet again prior to the April NRC meeting. Out of respect for Proposal G, Rep. Sheltrown will not take action on HB 5741 unless the workgroup fails to submit a reasonable plan to the NRC at its May meeting.

Under HB 5741, the disability threshold would be reduced from 80% to 60%, people with neuromuscular diseases would no longer have to be re-tested annually and most importantly, crossbows could be used by anyone 69 years or older during the October bow season. We have already been approached by legislators and hunters proposing amendments to move the automatic age to 65, 55 or to simply not to discriminate between crossbows and compound bows for anyone.

The intent on the bill is to increase the number of hunters in the field in October, particularly those hunters who would hunt with a compound bow if they were physically able to. Neighboring areas such as Ohio, Illinois, Wisconsin and Ontario all allow crossbow use during their early deer archery season for either the general population or seniors regardless of disability.

We would appreciate the feedback of Michigan hunters regarding this proposal and suggestions for changes.

I AM FOR EVERYONE being able to pursue whitetail deer in any manner they wish to WITH NO RESTRICTIONS what soever as long as they follow the present game laws ON LIMITS. there is absolutely no reason for not allowing CROSSBOWS FOR ANYONE other than the MBHs convoluted ideas, which are FOUNDLESS AND BASELESS AT BEST. i was bow hunting way before the age of compoud bows and everyone back then didn't want them either they said the same lame garbage back then about compounds as they're saying now about making CROSSBOWS LEGAL. THEY'LL KILL ALL THE DEER, NO SPORT, NOT IN MY SEASON (like they own the season) TO HIGH TECH, TO EASY, AND ON AND ON. high tech my butt tell that to the VIKINGS. WAKE UP AND JUST DO THE RIGHT THING AND ***QUIT*** STOPPING PEOPLE FROM HUNTING WITH A CROSSBOW. we need all the sportsmen and sportswomen in the woods enjoying the ******HUNT*****, it's not about the killing. i can kill 100 deer a year with my guns if they let me thats really easy to do. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE HUNT PERIOD! this is just 1/10 of a pennies worth from me if you want the whole 2 cents worth send me an e-mail and you'll get it.:coolgleam

jaybe

03-31-2008, 06:09 PM

I totally agree that crossbows should be a legal weapon during any season. All the arguments about them being "cross guns" is silly as far as I'm concerned. The distinction between a firearm and a bow is not how it is held for firing. The diffference is that one uses powder to push a projectile, and one uses a string to push an arrow.

The way I see it is if you are allwed a certain number of deer each year what does it matter what type of weapon you use?:rolleyes::dizzy:

:yeahthat:

Doctari

03-31-2008, 06:25 PM

It has Trigger, oppose the idea.

LungBuster 21

03-31-2008, 06:27 PM

Wake up NRC....Lower hunter numbers means less $ to DNR which means less $ for managing Michigan's wildlife. We should all welcome the use of the crossbow to Michigan hunting for anyone so inclined. If you've ever hunted with a crossbow you know it's loud and one shot is all your going to get not to mention the amount of time it takes to reload. Anything we now hunt with a bow should be able to hunt with a crossbow(deer,turkey, bear, elk,etc). NO CROSSBOW RESTRICTIONS.:lol:

bradymsu

03-31-2008, 06:30 PM

Joel Sheltrown can be reached by e-mail at dist103@yahoo.ie.

DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI

03-31-2008, 06:32 PM

It has Trigger, oppose the idea.

what exactly do you think :help:a compound release has:dizzy::dizzy: more baseless and foundless thinking:coolgleam it also has a shorter arrow called a bolt i'll bet that makes it go faster too!

MIHandgunhunter

03-31-2008, 06:38 PM

Allow them in with no restrictions.

PioneerMoose

03-31-2008, 06:46 PM

I am for the age approval of 55+ for crossbows. This past year my father, who I have shared hunting times with since I was 6, had shoulder surgery during the summer. His recovery was very slow and was not eligble for a crossbow permit. At 32 years of age, this was the first year I was not able to share the hunting experience with good ol dad. I'll tell ya what, this year definetly opened my eyes as to what it will be like without Dad at hunting camp. I have always tried to explain to non hunters that hunting is more than just the harvest of an animal. It is an experience of emotions between family, friends and nature, that is at sometimes hard to describe in words alone. Hopefully he will come back strong this year, but if the law doesnt change to allow an age of at least 60+ (he's currently 63) he may miss another season, which will hurt me, but more importantly will devastate him.

Munsterlndr

03-31-2008, 06:46 PM

It has Trigger, oppose the idea.
I guess that rules out 99% of compound users, too. :rolleyes:

Radar420

03-31-2008, 06:49 PM

I guess that rules out 99% of compound users, too. :rolleyes:

I was thinking the same thing and then I looked at his/her previous posts and the majority are in the Traditional Archery forum so I could see his viewpoint.

Munsterlndr

03-31-2008, 06:54 PM

I was thinking the same thing and then I looked at his/her previous posts and the majority are in the Traditional Archery forum so I could see his viewpoint.

It's still hypocritical unless you want to get rid of 99% of Michigans bowhunters who use releases. But then again, you may have a point. There are an awful lot of trad guys who think getting rid of compounds would be just peachy! ;)

DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI

03-31-2008, 06:59 PM

It's still hypocritical unless you want to get rid of 99% of Michigans bowhunters who use releases. But then again, you may have a point. There are an awful lot of trad guys who think getting rid of compounds would be just peachy! ;)

YES, ME :gaga:ME :gaga:AND MORE ME:gaga: AND ONLY MY WAY:gaga::coolgleam

7MM Magnum

03-31-2008, 07:03 PM

I'll ditto what Whit1 had to say ;),.. I've been involved in SO MANY discussions regarding crossbows it isn't funny.

Some of the lame excuses that have come up to disallow them is simply ludicrous. There just some traditional archers out there that are so wound up in themselves and having things THEIR way and if they can't have it they'll banter you to death. I too had started archery out at a very young age,.. long bows, recurves, using a 3 finger glove, just within the past 12 years I had entered the compound era using a mechanical release.

Now,.. take that compound bow of yours and hold it horizontally,.. now mount a 2"x4"x 28"-30" to the riser,.. add a makeshift locking trigger "RELEASE" and wallah' instant crossbow!

I just can't understand for the life of me WHAT all the big fuss is about :confused:

All of us being outdoorsmen and women should be able to understand all of this. Would you tell your father, uncle, brother that they had to QUIT the joy of their life hunting just to pacify some archaic mindset that it really isn't bow hunting using a crossbow ?? :16suspect

Give me a break!! :mad:

Munsterlndr

03-31-2008, 07:05 PM

Regarding Brady's question:

There is absolutely no good reason not to allow the unrestricted use of crossbows during archery seasons.

Statistics from Ohio and other states show that there is no inherent advantage to crossbows that results in an increased rate of harvest, as compared to vertical bows.

Concerns about it bringing too many more hunters into the field are unwarranted. In Wisconsin, when they legalized crossbows for seniors, I think it resulted in something like 5,000 additional hunters. Less than 10 years ago Michigan had almost 50,000 more bow hunters in the woods than we do today. Even if 50,000 new hunters took up the crossbow (which is highly unlikely) it would have almost no measurable impact on the resource.

The second buck tag in Michigan results in 32,000 additional bucks being harvested each year, a number that the DNR has deemed "Insignificant". In order to equal that number of additional bucks in the harvest you would have to add almost 200,000 new crossbow hunters to the ranks, which is not going to happen in anybodies wildest dreams.

Allowing crossbows would allow more Youths and Woman and Seniors to participate in our sport, demographics that would substantially strengthen the perception of hunters among the non-hunting public.

Get rid of the restrictions, it's past time!

NonTypicalCPA

03-31-2008, 07:13 PM

I'm 37 and in good physical health. I am for letting anyone hunt with a crossbow during bow season.

lang49

03-31-2008, 07:15 PM

Brady,

The bill is perfect as is. I support it 100%.

However, if the age for unrestricted use were lowered below 69, I would respectfully suggest that unrestricted use be permitted solely on private land. Firearm season on public land in the NLP is a friggen zoo and I do not enjoy it in the least. However, I couldn't care less as to an individuals choice of weapon on private land.

Thanks,
Andrew

doublell

03-31-2008, 07:16 PM

bought my x-bow when lived in Ohio the first time, age late 40's. will be 66 this year. I have had a couple of operations on my spine and trying hard to not have another on my lower back. arthritic in my hands, feet, shoulders and spine. Would like to hunt with the x-bow but I have too much pride to go thru the BS this state expects someone like me to go thru to hunt with the weapon of my choice. In some respects I equate it to applying for a handicapped parking permit. I can still walk from a normal spot leaving the handicaped spot for someone who cannot so I don't have one. But then how many times do we see some able bodied person abusing that privledge. I'll gladly give up my pursuit of a x-bow non-conditional use license if everyone goes back to using a bow made up of a string and a stick, all rifles will be single shot open iron site, black powder will be flintlock, shotguns will be single shot smooth bore, I think you get my drift. All of the purists arguments to deny need to remember the resources of this state and the right to purse them belong to everyone .

outdooralex

03-31-2008, 07:35 PM

I for one would like to see them open a crossbow season. My father is 67 years old and has bow hunted since I started. I was 12 at the time and now I am 39. My father is not the serious hunter and does not gun hunt, but he goes out with myself and my brother. Its just a father and his two sons kind of thing. Last year the tendonitis in his shoulder got to be to bad and could not pull his bow back. This was the first archery season he has missed in 26 years. The tendonitis is not getting any better after rehab and medication he probably will have to miss another season. I missed having my dad go out with us and I know it was killing him staying in. 67 year old is to young to stop bow hunting but if he could use a cross bow he could easily extend that a few more years!!!!

utan

03-31-2008, 07:43 PM

The way I see it is if you are allwed a certain number of deer each year what does it matter what type of weapon you use?:rolleyes::dizzy:

Using that line of reasoning we should be able to use a gun during bowseason too.

Right to bear arms baby:rant:

skyhawk1

03-31-2008, 07:51 PM

marty

03-31-2008, 07:53 PM

I support the bill 100%...M:D

wally-eye

03-31-2008, 08:01 PM

I'm thinking a State Rep. reading some of the posts in this thread would be mortified........:sad: :rant:

7MM Magnum

03-31-2008, 08:03 PM

I agree to allow hunters aged 65 and hunters under 12 to use crossbows during regular season, as far as everyone else, we need to think about all the idiots running the woods in november and do we really want to have the same thing in october? the crossbow allows easy sight in, and can be outfitted with scopes allowing someone with NO bowhunting experience to hunt in october. do we want to have to wear orange in the bow stand? think about these things guys before you run off at the mouth.

OK,.. here we go again :gaga: :rolleyes:

Now your honestly gonna' set there and try and tell a archer, ANY archer that a crossbow is any easier to sight in than a compound? If you know how to shoot a bow,.. any bow,.. it's pretty much the same.

And in the same breath your also trying to say you have never seen a scope on a bow either ?? :lol::dizzy:

Just WHO are you trying to kid,... yourself ??

How long have you been shooting for anyhow ?? :16suspect

swampbuck

03-31-2008, 08:21 PM

brady,
I support the addition of crossbows to the archery season for all hunters.

Have you or are you doing any research on the full legalization of crossbows for everyone. I believe you would find that in the states were it has been legalized it has added opportunity for many hunters with no ill effects on the deer herd. And may also result in increased revenue for license sales. If you would like I as well as others on this sight have a ton of information that we can e-mail you.

I appreciate all of the hard work that Joel and yourself did to try to preserve the public access here at Higgins Lake. I would urge you to think of the legalisation of crossbows as a public access issue also. I believe if you look at the results in other states you will find no scientific reason not to.

If we send some stuff to Joel's e-mail will you get it also, or is there another address? In the meantime I would encourage you to do a search here about crossbows, A lot of good info has already been posted. You might have to wade through a lot of bull**** to get to it. But I know you have some expierience with that. You should also take into cosideration that this site is composed of some of the most hardcore deer hunters in the state so sometimes it can get a little nasty. heres a poll taken a while back it would probably be a good place to start.

View Poll Results: Your opinion on the crossbow situation.
The current regulations are fine. 19 14.62%
The disability criteria needs adjusted and they should leave out the age stipulation. 18 13.85%
The proposed change is good and keep the 65 age criteria. 23 17.69%
Crossbows ARE archery equipment and should be included for everyone in the archery season. 70 53.85%
Voters: 130. This poll is closed
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185633&highlight=crossbow+poll

And while we got your ear another major issue is the linquist proposal/ mandatory antler restrictions. That is coming before the NRC on april 10 th. This is probably a hotter issue than the crossbow issue. I think you would find that the majority of michigan hunters are strongly against it. I certainly hope that the NRC is not bullied by special interest groups on this one like they have been on the crossbow issue amoung others.

.... hey guys Brady is Rep Sheltrowns go to guy. They came here looking for input. It would be a good time to present "profesional" type answers without the bickering. Not that I dont enjoy the bickering;).

For those who dont know Rep Sheltrown is the Chairman of the House Committee On Tourism, Outdoor Recreation, and Natural Resources. I know that he relys heavily on Brady to gather the info he need to make decisions. This is too good of opportunity to waste.

Munsterlndr

03-31-2008, 08:27 PM

as far as everyone else, we need to think about all the idiots running the woods in november and do we really want to have the same thing in october? the crossbow allows easy sight in, and can be outfitted with scopes allowing someone with NO bowhunting experience to hunt in october. do we want to have to wear orange in the bow stand? think about these things guys before you run off at the mouth.

We already have idiots running around the woods in October, those idiots that don't put in enough practice time to be able to accurately shoot a bow or those idiots that think because they can hit a stationary target in their back yard at 50 yards that it means they can hit a deer at the same range. The result is that there are tens of thousands of wounded unrecovered deer every archery. season. Idiots are going to be idiots whether they are using a compound, a crossbow or a 30-06. When you have 650,000 hunters it's bound to happen. While that may be the case, since crossbow users are no less or no more likely to be idiots than any other kind of hunter, that argument ceases to be a legitimate one for keeping crossbows out of the woods.

As far as crossbows being too easy to sight in; I just have to laugh. So what's the advantage of forcing the novice hunter to use a more difficult weapon that may cause them to shoot at a live animal with a lower degree of accuracy? Please tell me you can come up with something better than that!

The wearing of Orange is another strawman, since crossbows have the same relative range and power of a vertical compound bow. Both are close range weapons that require that the hunter be close enough to clearly identify his target. Show me some statistics from Ohio or another State that show that crossbows are involved in significantly more accidents than vertical bows and it might lend some credence to your argument. I've looked, however, and the only accident stats that I can find show virtually no difference.

Most of the time it seems that what it boils down to is that some hunters are concerned that somebody else is going to shoot "their" buck, so they will manufacture any strawman argument they can to try and muddy the waters and raise doubts, despite the lack of any evidence to support their contentions. The old adage, "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with Bull****" certainly comes to mind!

bradymsu

03-31-2008, 09:30 PM

Joel shares his e-mail with me regarding natural resource issues. If anyone wants to send something to me directly, I'm at bschick@house.mi.gov. Having survived the budget battles of 2007, nothing said on this site about crossbows is going to mortify any legislator. It's a very rough business.

Thanks Swampbuck for your comments on public access. If one were to take a look at the type of legislation Sheltrown has been taking up in committee the focus is to increase public participation in outdoor activities. The lake use bills, the ORVs on county roads bill, the firearms bills, no net loss, crossbows, even smaller impact things like the falconry bill up this week are examples. Reducing regulation and opening up opportunities makes a lot of sense for outdoor enthusiasts living in Michigan, the people we are hoping to attract from out of state and the health of the state's outdoor programs.

beervo2

03-31-2008, 10:05 PM

PLEASE, do something about this crossbow mess, there should be no restrictions, especially if your hunting on private land, the other states did it and they don't have any problems..Could you please keep us updated on the subject..

swampbuck

03-31-2008, 11:41 PM

Brady,
Its unfortunate that we dont have more outdoorsmen like him in the house and senate. I follow several of the issues that you mentioned and Rep Sheltrown always puts up a good fight for us. His focus on public access/opportunity is the reason I voted for him. :)

Whit1

04-01-2008, 01:18 AM

And while we got your ear another major issue is the linquist proposal/ mandatory antler restrictions. That is coming before the NRC on april 10 th. This is probably a hotter issue than the crossbow issue. I think you would find that the majority of michigan hunters are strongly against it. I certainly hope that the NRC is not bullied by special interest groups on this one like they have been on the crossbow issue amoung others.

Let's keep this thread on topic please.

skyhawk1

04-01-2008, 02:57 AM

Now your honestly gonna' set there and try and tell a archer, ANY archer that a crossbow is any easier to sight in than a compound?
And in the same breath your also trying to say you have never seen a scope on a bow either ?? :lol::dizzy:
How long have you been shooting for anyhow ?? :16suspect

let's start here...first of all my shooting time isn't the issue here, I paid my dues and have taken all different types and sizes of game with my bow, both without a sight, and with a SCOPE on my bow. I have also taken some trigger time with my dad's crossbow when it was time to sight it in. bottomline is you remove the human factor from the draw, shooting form, release ect with a crossbow. there is no difference between this and a rifle.

skyhawk1

04-01-2008, 03:07 AM

We already have idiots running around the woods in October, those idiots that don't put in enough practice time to be able to accurately shoot a bow
As far as crossbows being too easy to sight in; I just have to laugh. So what's the advantage of forcing the novice hunter to use a more difficult weapon that may cause them to shoot at a live animal with a lower degree of accuracy?
you need to read the above post to see my stance on ease of sighting in. as far as novice hunters, if they don't have the practice time, they shouldn't be in the woods. as kids we spent HOURS shooting our bows so we could be accurate enough to hunt. we didn't use sights and even today, I won't hesitate to shoot instinctively. at our hunting camp, if you don't pass our expectations of accuracy, you don't hunt, plain and simple. I shoot my bow year round and the animals deserve for us to be the best we can be. the state only needs to allow the handicapped, younger, and older hunters that maybe can't pull enough draw weight to be effective to hunt with crossbows during regular archery season. let the 30 some year olds that want to hunt use the same equipment everyone else uses. and we should also make IBEP mandatory the same as hunters safety. lets not promote laziness here, lets keep the sport clean.

utan

04-01-2008, 05:52 AM

Just what we need. More "bowhunters" in the woods before the gun opener.I'm a died in the wool gun hunter and I think bowhunters have it too good now. Put more in the woods before the rut? I think not.

tmb

04-01-2008, 06:44 AM

If it doesn’t need to drawn and held in the presence of the game hunted its not a bow and therefore does not belong in archery season unless disabled, regardless of age.

Munsterlndr

04-01-2008, 08:55 AM

you need to read the above post to see my stance on ease of sighting in. as far as novice hunters, if they don't have the practice time, they shouldn't be in the woods. as kids we spent HOURS shooting our bows so we could be accurate enough to hunt. we didn't use sights and even today, I won't hesitate to shoot instinctively. at our hunting camp, if you don't pass our expectations of accuracy, you don't hunt, plain and simple. I shoot my bow year round and the animals deserve for us to be the best we can be. the state only needs to allow the handicapped, younger, and older hunters that maybe can't pull enough draw weight to be effective to hunt with crossbows during regular archery season. let the 30 some year olds that want to hunt use the same equipment everyone else uses. and we should also make IBEP mandatory the same as hunters safety. lets not promote laziness here, lets keep the sport clean.
Whether someone shouldn't be in the woods with a vertical bow if they have not adequately practiced is a moot point. The FACT is that tens of thousands of archers take to the woods every year without having adequately prepared. Just like tens of thousands of firearms hunters get their rifle out of the case the day before deer season and fire one or two shots at a pine tree and call it good. Your naive if you think that is not the case. So your premise that the sport is already "clean" is simply BS. Ask Ninja or anyone else who works at a sporting goods store how many times they have seen somebody come in to buy a bow a day or two before the season. How many archers actually tune their bow properly every year? The State is not going to introduce any kind of mandatory accuracy test so don't even bother going there. There is not the manpower or the resources or the desire to do so. Instead of living in some bow hunters utopia lets examine the real world and the state of hunting in Michigan. If crossbows are easier to use and allow more people to participate in utilizing a public resource, then they should be legalized. The deer herd is a public resource, not the property of one particular group of sportsmen. There have been absolutely no negative consequences in allowing crossbows in archery season in Ohio or in any of the dozen other states that have liberalized their use. The only legitimate reason there would be to not allow the expansion of crossbows would be if there was a substantive negative impact on the deer herd itself. There is plenty of data available to show what the potential impact would be and none of it appears to be negative. In point of fact, the positive impact that crossbow expansion would have on helping to deal with the chronic overpopulation in the SLP is reason enough to legalize them during archery. The DNR is already considering early antlereless firearms seasons. Crossbows would simply provide additional help in solving this problem.

DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI

04-01-2008, 09:08 AM

I'm thinking a State Rep. reading some of the posts in this thread would be mortified........:sad: :rant:

i would rather all the state reps watch and read all these post's, due to the FACTS that are presented VERSUS all the myths. then use the scale of justice and let the scientific side WIN HANDS DOWN AND MOVE ON. :D
IS IT CROSSBOW SEASON YET:evilsmile

Backwoods-Savage

04-01-2008, 09:11 AM

bradymsu
Thank you for comming on M-S looking for input on the crossbow issue.

I am all for at least allowing any one above the age of 60 to use a cross bow during any season they wish if not just let anyone that choses to use them during the archery deer season to do so. As a polio survivor I have been unable to draw my bow for years but did not pass the present criteria nor would I pass the 60% criteria. It sure would be nice to be able to spend some time deer hunting in the nice weather of October.

How about an email address that we can send comments directly to Rep Sheltrown.

Tom

As another polio survivor, I also am for allowing the crossbow.

One other note: If it is kept as disabled only, then the word disabled needs to be better described. As Tom stated, he had been unable to draw his bow. But if a person still has use of their arms, according to the law today he is not disabled. Why not? If they do not have full use of the arms and can't draw the bow, they are disabled.

buckinoff69

04-01-2008, 09:23 AM

how about a crossbow season? i think all of september for crossbow season would be great.a good way to thin out the heard.

swampbuck

04-01-2008, 09:25 AM

Brady,
Sheltrowns e-mail address dont appear to be working, I sent you a couple e-mails. More to come.

CL-Lewiston

04-01-2008, 09:34 AM

The way I see it is if you are allwed a certain number of deer each year what does it matter what type of weapon you use?:rolleyes::dizzy:

Most everyone will agree-BUT when can the crossbow shooter use his weapon? bow season, muzzleloader or gun??

Now that bows are different than in the 60's, it is getting to where it really dont matter.

Rereading the above quote one could also ask why not hunt at night--as long as the quota is in place and not exceeded. I suspect it has to do with violating the law and anyone out after xx hr are assumed to be violators-kinda like drivers leaving the bar at 230 AM. I guiess they like late night chili.

Leader

04-01-2008, 09:54 AM

My choice would be to legalize crossbows for ALL seasons and all legal hunting ages. I don't see any drawbacks for allowing them for small game or anything else that is OK for any bow.

skyhawk1

04-01-2008, 09:58 AM

The State is not going to introduce any kind of mandatory accuracy test so don't even bother going there.

In point of fact, the positive impact that crossbow expansion would have on helping to deal with the chronic overpopulation in the SLP is reason enough to legalize them during archery. The DNR is already considering early antlereless firearms seasons. Crossbows would simply provide additional help in solving this problem.

never once did I say the STATE should impliment an accuracy test what I SAID was they should make IBEP mandatory for those of you that are NIEVE, this is the International Bowhunters Education Program and it is mandatory in quite a few states and provinces here's the list: Alaska, South Dakota, Nebraska, Montana, Idaho, Connecticut, Louisiana, Quebec, Kansas, Rhode Island, New York, New Brunswick, Maine, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Nova Scotia, and Vermont

as far as the deer herd, I'm not worried about them, they take care of themselves. I'm not even worried about sharing the state land, it belongs to everyone. the thing that bothers me is that yes there are people that don't prepare, and legalizing crossbows will just broaden thier numbers. so not only will we have the usual number of "my stand/trailcam got stolen" threads, but more "this guy sat down right by me" and " i almost got shot" threads as well as others. how SAFE would you feel small game hunting with your dog? or Duck hunting a wooded pond? how many stands do you want to lose? how many "secret" spots on state land are you willing to give up? it isn't gonna matter because if you get your way, oct 1 will be no different than nov 15.

Munsterlndr

04-01-2008, 10:26 AM

as far as the deer herd, I'm not worried about them, they take care of themselves. I'm not even worried about sharing the state land, it belongs to everyone. the thing that bothers me is that yes there are people that don't prepare, and legalizing crossbows will just broaden thier numbers. so not only will we have the usual number of "my stand/trailcam got stolen" threads, but more "this guy sat down right by me" and " i almost got shot" threads as well as others. how SAFE would you feel small game hunting with your dog? or Duck hunting a wooded pond? how many stands do you want to lose? how many "secret" spots on state land are you willing to give up? it isn't gonna matter because if you get your way, oct 1 will be no different than nov 15.

So it sounds like you are not in favor of expanding hunter numbers regardless of the weapon that is used because;

A) It will result in more stands/trailcams being stolen (pretty high opinion of your fellow hunters)

B) It will increase the chance of getting accidentally shot, (In 2006 approx. 650,000 hunters resulted in 4 hunting fatalities, 3 of which were self inflicted. That means that statistically you would add 1 fatality for every additional 162,500 hunters that took to the field and there would be a 75% chance that the Idiot will shoot himself not you)

C) Your concerned about giving up "secret spots" on State Land. (85% of deer hunting takes place on private land in Michigan and wait a minute, I thought you just said that you were not worried about sharing state land because it belongs to everyone?)

D) Oct. 1st will become like November 15th. (Do you really think that legalizing crossbows is going to result in 600,000+ hunters taking to the field on Oct. 1st. Come on, let's be real here.)

Still waiting for a compelling argument for why we should not expand crossbow season.

bradymsu

04-01-2008, 10:50 AM

I typed the wrong e-mail address for Joel earlier. The actual address is dist103@house.mi.gov. Sorry for the mistake.

unclecbass

04-01-2008, 11:16 AM

Allow with no restrictions, My dad has a permit and I have shot his crossbow at our targets, I will personally stick with my compound, but I dont see why others shouldnt be able to use their crossbow. Less wounded deer by people that are poor shots. And if somebody shoots my bird dog with any kind of weapon they are in for a serious beating before they make it out of the woods.

Fred Bear

04-01-2008, 11:34 AM

marty

04-01-2008, 11:43 AM

. Less wounded deer by people that are poor shots. .

This is a good point. Some guys practice right before bow season and never fire another arrow till nov and then we all hear the story about the wounded/never recovered nice 10 point buck around the coffee pot the next day. If that same fellow use a xbow he would have gotten a better shot.:D

Now I'd rather someone hunt with a more accurate weapon if he's hunting. Yes they are accurate but don't we owe it to our game to make the best shot anyway. I'd rather put down an animal quickly rather to know it suffered cause I made a crappy shot:( ........my 2 m:D

wally-eye

04-01-2008, 12:04 PM

wildcoy73

04-01-2008, 12:10 PM

for myself i would rather see all restriction on the crossbow taken away. i will share the woods with any hunter.
my biggest point for allowing crossnows is for the youth. i do not know many youths that can pull decent weight at 10 to hunt with a bow.. and those kids that go out i fear shot a deer to never recover it. due to poor blood trail. give this same youth a crossbow and many more hunters would be in the woods and many more recovered. this one act would increase the doe harvest. and also increase future hunting numbers.
second we as a group have all agreed we need more doe harvest, but many bow hunters are against the early rifle season to allow this. i am in that boat. give the hunters the use of a crossbow the weapon is a silent killer unlike a gun. and this would get a few more bowhunters to agree to the early doe season (with a crossbow) as for myself i would like to see them allowed all bow season.
i have shot a crossbow and i can tell you they are not a magic bullet.
range is about 30 yards. my recurve 50yards
they are very heavy my bow is light
they are large compared to our bows
so with that i will say they have no advantage to us that like our bows. but for many this is a way to go and if it will increase our numbers than lets open the door and let these sportsman enjoy the sport. they pay taxes and deserve that right to be in the woods.

Munsterlndr

04-01-2008, 12:31 PM

Why does anyone need or want to use a crossbow? I think people only want to use a crossbow to "get a deer" Why dont we just dig pits and use claymores? Fair chase - a bow must be drawn in front of the animal.
Now days we have muzzle rifles and 200 yrd shot guns. All we need is x-guns in the woods.
The only way I think x-bows should be allowed during bow season is if the shooter has to draw it in front of the game. Why are draw locks and lasers not allowed?
A veritable litany of strawmen to knock down.

"Why does anyone need or want to use a crossbow?"
Why does anyone need or want to use a compound or a longbow? The reason is the same for all three, personal preference.

"Why don't we dig pits or use claymores? "
Because digging pits, besides being a very ineffective method for taking deer, also presents an unreasonable danger to the public, who could potentially be injured. Claymores are not legal for private ownership and the potential danger is somewhat obvious to everyone except those who pose such obtuse strawman questions.

"Fair Chase - "A bow must be drawn in front of an animal""
How about behind the animal while their back is turned, is that unethical? ;)
This may be your personal definition of fair chase but Pope & Young would not agree. Here is their definition. "Simply defined, fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal." They then include a detailed list of practices that would not be considered fair chase, including shooting from a car, shooting at game while in water, etc. Crossbows are not included on their list. Michigan already determined that a crossbow is a fair chase method when they legalized them for Nov. 15th - 30th. Sorry, the "fair chase" dog won't hunt. I'm sure that the millions of hunters who use crossbows in the many states that allow them would be surprised to find out that their hunting method is not fair chase. It would be equally surprising that dozens of State game agencies would promote the use of a weapon that is not fair chase, as well.

"Now we have muzzle rifles and 200 yard shotguns, all we need is x-guns in the woods."
What does the fact that we have muzzleloaders and shotguns being used by hunters have to do with people using crossbows? Are you seriously comparing the range and power of a muzzleloader or shotgun to that of a crossbow? Please. The facts are that a crossbow has almost an identical potential for speed and penetration as most modern compound bows. Trying to compare them in any way shape or form to firearms simply highlights someones ignorance on ballistics and the terminal methodology of how an arrow kills game.

Keep em coming, we have yet to see any substantive arguments that stand up to scrutiny.

Here is a pic that I love, from the back cover of the 2006 Ohio deer harvest summary. Not a fair chase weapon, huh? :lol:

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc112/Munsterlndr/OhioDNR-1.jpg

skyhawk1

04-01-2008, 12:34 PM

they pay taxes and deserve that right to be in the woods.
It isn't taxes that paid for state land, it was our license fees. the PRIVLEGE of hunting should belong to all I agree. but inviting people to be lazy is not the way to do it. I said it from the begining, youth and people over 60 are the only ones that should be allowed to use them during the regular archery season. as far as a crossbow only season, how many of you would give up a few weeks or a month of bowhunting so the crossbow guys can have thier hunt? btw munster...just because someone killed a deer with it, doesn't make it fair chase. next your going to tell me you would allow crossbow killed animals to be put in the pope & young book, A record book built upon traditional archery. It took years before they even allowed compound trophys to be listed.

Leader

04-01-2008, 12:51 PM

Munsterlndr

04-01-2008, 12:55 PM

It isn't taxes that paid for state land, it was our license fees. the PRIVLEGE of hunting should belong to all I agree. but inviting people to be lazy is not the way to do it. I said it from the begining, youth and people over 60 are the only ones that should be allowed to use them during the regular archery season. as far as a crossbow only season, how many of you would give up a few weeks or a month of bowhunting so the crossbow guys can have thier hunt? btw munster...just because someone killed a deer with it, doesn't make it fair chase. next your going to tell me you would allow crossbow killed animals to be put in the pope & young book, A record book built upon traditional archery. It took years before they even allowed compound trophys to be listed.

License fee's paid for the state land that we hunt on? Where did you dig up that little factoid? I'd check your source, if I was you.

So are compound users also "lazy" in your opinion? A guy shooting a 40lb compound with a 99% let-off is holding less than 1/2 a lb of pressure, how long do you think you could hold that bow at full draw? Probably more time than you could hold a 8 lb. crossbow to your shoulder while aiming it. A pretty judgmental accusation, implying that the millions of hunters who use crossbows in this country are all lazy, don't you think? Is the guy who uses a pop-up instead of building a blind out of branches lazy? How about the guy who uses a climbing stand instead of wedging himself into the crotch of a tree? Do illuminated nocks or sight pins on a compound make that hunter lazy Come on. They are all just examples of technology that hunters use and crossbows are no different.

As far as P&Y, I could care less what criteria they use for putting bucks in the book. I am not an antler fetishist so it really does not matter much to me. My guess is that the fact that they now let even high let-off compounds in the book (albeit with an asterisk) is indicative that they are adapting to the changing times and I would not be surprised if someday they allow crossbow kills in the book, too. Unless they are requiring hunters to use a yew & rawhide bow and stone arrowheads like Ishi, the whole thing becomes something of a charade anyway. But as I said, I really could care less because there is a lot more to hunting than worrying about whether you get to put a rack in some book.

swampbuck

04-01-2008, 01:01 PM

Ken Martin

04-01-2008, 01:20 PM

After reading all these posts I thought I might give a personal perspective.

I learned how to shoot archery in 1975 at age eight at Camp Bold Eagle in Chelsea, Michigan on Cedar Lake. The camp was established for kids with Hemophilia, which is a bleeding disorder that affects mostly the joints. I started bow hunting in 1985 with a Bear Kodiak Hunter at 45+ poundage. No sights, I had to use a release because of bone damage done to eighteen years of bleeding into my elbows (bleeding into joints causes your body to create an enzyme to get rid of the dead blood once bleeding has stopped...this enzyme does not know the difference between blood and cartilage thus causing degenerative bone disease). I hunted from the ground but never got a shot off in two years of hunting with that bow. My joint strength deteriorated to the point of me switching to a Bear Tiger Cat at 35 pounds still no sights. I figured I would have to have a deer in my lap to kill it but nothing compares to being in the woods and enjoying nature and what it offers to the soul. I never had an opportunity to get a shot with that bow either. In 1989 I could not even shoot that bow effectively so I searched for a compound that I could "break" at 45 pounds. No matter the let off a bow, at some point you are pulling the full poundage. Oneida's Eagle bows were smooth drawing and the only bow I could draw without causing bleeding into my elbows (exertion causes bleeding). I still did not use sights and I started hunting from a tree stand. One year I went up north and practiced from my stand and I shot six arrows consecutively into a Dixie cup on the ground at 15 yards. The next day I missed one deer five times at 18 yards and told myself to break down and put sights on. The next year I harvested my first deer. In December of 1993 I was hunting and a nice doe came in. I drew back and could not hold the bow still due to pain in my joints. The doe was alerted to my presence from the loud cracking noise coming from the arthritis in my joints. I couldn't even un-draw the bow due to the pain. I moved the bow off to the side and shot the arrow into the ground. I started crying because I thought that was the last time I would ever be able to bow hunt.

That was the same time they passed the crossbow regulations. I asked for the application, sent it to my doctor and therapist, sent it to Lansing and received my crossbow permit. A total of eleven days from request to completed permit. I researched crossbows and purchased a Horton crossbow and by the next fall I could stack arrows at 25 yards. It is loud; nose heavy, hard to hold up for any amount of time. But it allows me the opportunity to continue doing what I love.

I have since taken a number of deer with it. I passed IBEP with it. I hunted in the first hunt at Stoney Creek with it, did an episode in Michigan Out of Doors Television with Jenny Olsen, argued with my sportsman club to allow me to shoot the3D league with it. It allowed me to bring my son with me into the blind, a blind he and I built together, in good weather, without risk of other hunter pressure. It took me three days to sight in my latest crossbow. I fletch my own arrows (they are arrows because they have feathers or vanes, bolts do not). I have 15 years of experience of hunting with it. I’ve heard all of the rhetoric about the use of crossbows.

My twelve-year-old son now shoots my Tigercat. If he is strong enough, proficient enough, and does well enough in school, he will hunt with my Onieda in the fall. He’ll hunt from the ground in the blind we built. If I could hunt with my Kodiak I would. It’s light, quiet, and what I grew up with. But I have no right to determine how other people want to pursue game in Michigan. A crossbow is a tool to harvest game…period. It doesn’t shoot an animal by itself.

A person still has to make the conscious decision to end the life of an animal.

Ken

wavie

04-01-2008, 01:32 PM

Havent read one valid SCIENTIFIC reason as to why they should not be allowed. So far the anti cross bow advocates here have based their dislikes on EMOTION only.

Legalize them during archery season. Let the hunter choose which weapon they would prefer during archery season, longbow, compound or cross bow.
I am all for hunter recuitment.

Buddwiser

04-01-2008, 01:42 PM

Make them legal without restrictions.

wildcoy73

04-01-2008, 01:49 PM

:lol::lol::lol: taxes did not pay for state land:lol::lol::lol: i think your thinking more in the line of state game area and even at that taxes where used to purchase the above land. and tax dollars are used for the roads going to them. fair chase what the f8ck are you talking about? to get a deer with in 30 yards with a bow or a crossbow would be the same. these said cross bows are not magic i can not sit on my couch hit the trigger and the bolt goes out the window and finds a deer. to many people have the wrong idea about crossbows and need to go out and see them in use. if it would take me giving up our bow season for a year to get crossbows allowed i would do it.
but than again i am not fair chase my arrows are carbon my blades are steel the vain are plastic my bow has these round things on them. my arrow rest is not mad of flesh or wood my sight is not open in fact it has a red light in it opps i can shoot right at legal light but to listen to some that is not fair chase. i use cover sent, sent free wash, sent loc camos rubber boots a tree stand 25 feet in the air or a pop-up blind. i spend weeks in the woods scouting for the best spot i can find i use maps, gps, internet to fine tune all this in. so where is the fair chase in this? no diffrent than the crossbow being use.
yes a few would get lucky and harvest a nice buck, but that happen now with archery season and rifle. so what is the diffrent......NONE. LET the people hunt and quit this fighting amongst our ranks. as stated before we are our worst enemy. let all join hands and become one

November Sunrise

04-01-2008, 01:49 PM

Emotion vs. logic. Myth vs. facts.

http://www.hunting-fishing-gear.com/article-display/1737.html

Myth: A crossbow is not really a bow.

Fact: When comparing a crossbow to a compound bow shot with a release, the only differences between them are:

• The crossbow trigger mechanism holds the draw for the shooter.

• The crossbow’s bow assembly is positioned horizontally.

• The crossbow is aimed like a rifle. Both weapons fire an arrow equipped with a broadhead designed to penetrate an animal, causing it to hemorrhage to death. The arrow coming from both weapons travels approximately the same distance, at approximately the same speed and energy, with approximately the same trajectory.

Myth: Crossbows make deer hunting too easy.

Fact: The only advantage a crossbow has over a conventional bow is that it holds the bow in the drawn, or ready to fire, position for the shooter. While shooting a crossbow is generally easier to master than shooting a vertical bow, it cannot be argued that it is just plain easy. The crossbow hunter must have the same woodsmanship ability and nearly all of the same shooting skills as the vertical bowhunter.

Myth: Anyone can pick up a crossbow, practice for an hour, and be ready to head to the woods.

Fact: Any experienced crossbow hunter will tell you that there are many ways to make a bad shot with a crossbow. First, if a crossbow is not cocked perfectly straight, it will not shoot straight. If the bowstring is pulled even 1/16th of an inch to the right or left of center, that difference can translate into a six-inch error at 20-yards. Additionally, like any conventional bow shooter, a crossbow shooter must maintain a proper stance, control breathing, squeeze rather than “jerk” the trigger, steady the entire body, and follow through (watch the entire arrow flight through the sighting mechanism) after the release. And finally, the crossbow hunter must also be a good judge of distance and be practiced at shooting the crossbow at distances between five and approximately 35 yards.

Myth: A crossbow shoots much faster and farther than compound bows.

Fact: Under controlled conditions, a series of velocity and kinetic energy tests were performed on two compound bows with 70# peak draw weights (248 and 205 feet per second) and 2 crossbows with 150# peak draw weights (228 and 242 feet per second). The bottom line was that both the compound bows and crossbows produced similar ballistic results. That is, the crossbows did not shoot farther or faster than the compound bows.

If anything, the crossbow begins to lose velocity and energy slightly faster than the compound bow after 30 yards because it shoots a lighter/shorter arrow. However, that difference, while measurable, is slight and insignificant considering the typical whitetail deer shot is less than 30 yards.

Myth: Crossbows have the knockdown power of a firearm.

Fact: Comparison tests have proven that there is a negligible ballistic difference between compound bows and crossbows. These tests disprove the groundless claims that crossbows perform like firearms. In other words a crossbow has no ballistic similarities to a firearm.

Myth: Crossbows shoot as flat as black powder rifles.

Fact: Again, through comparison tests it has been shown that crossbows do not perform the same as firearms. Crossbows typically start loosing velocity and energy at 30 yards compared to a black powder rifle which begins to lose velocity and energy at 100 yards or more.

Myth: Crossbow hunters are less experienced than conventional bowhunters, and will injure more deer.

Fact: There is no evidence to remotely support this claim. Crossbow hunters must apply the same basic skills and techniques as conventional bowhunters. All hunters have to start somewhere. Nobody enters the woods for the first time as an expert. As a hunter gains more experience in shot placement, judging distance and overall hunting skill, they become far less likely to injure a deer. In addition, one of the largest group of new crossbow hunters are experienced conventional bow hunters who can no longer hunt with a compound bow. They bring a vast amount of prior bowhunting knowledge with them. Finally, plenty of conventional bowhunters injure deer. The best approach to the issue of ethical shooting would be for individual states to consider requiring proficiency testing all hunters.

Myth: Crossbow hunters are less ethical, dedicated and proficient than conventional bowhunters.

Fact: This statement requires one to assume that conventional bowhunters in general are skilled experts who share a common passion and fervor, and are inherently ethical hunters. At face value alone, that assumption is unsupportable. It is safer to assume and easier to support the argument that many conventional bowhunters would have greater success and more “ethical hunts” if they used crossbows.

Myth: The crossbow is the preferred poaching weapon.

Fact: At the request of the American Crossbow Federation, Michael J. Budzik, the then Director of the Ohio Division of Wildlife, wrote a letter on December 13, 1999, addressing various crossbow related issues. In his letter he addressed the poaching issue with the following:
“From a law enforcement standpoint, violation statistics are just about equal between crossbows and vertical bows, and the total of both is an extremely small portion of the overall enforcement effort.”

As you can see, Ohio’s experience and data suggest that the anti-crossbow claims about crossbows being the preferred weapon of poachers is simply not true. Conventional wisdom also suggests that the crossbow would not be an efficient poaching weapon.

Myth: Crossbows are unsafe. Fact: Quoting the previously mentioned letter from Michael J. Budzik, he also states:

“Likewise, our statistics regarding hunter incidents (accidents) show very little difference between the two bow types. Since 1976 we have had only 21 archery-related hunting incidents; 10 caused by longbow and 11 by crossbow. Harvest data suggest that more people hunt with crossbows than with longbows in Ohio.”

Additionally, some crossbow manufacturers have been pro-active in adding additional safety features to their crossbows to reduce hunter/shooter injuries and also reduce the opportunity for a dry-fire situation.

Myth: Permitting crossbows in bow season will decimate the deer population.

Fact: In 1994, Ohio published year-by-year deer harvest data going all the way back to 1900. Ohio first allowed crossbows in archery season in 1976 and the conclusions are clear: Over the 18-year span since crossbow use has been permitted, crossbows have not decimated the deer population, the archery season has not been eliminated or shortened; and crossbows did nothing to diminish archers’ opportunities to hunt or their chances for success.

On the contrary, the opposite occurred. The deer population increased; the season got longer; more counties opened for hunting; more hunters participated; and the harvest-to-permits-sold ratio improved dramatically. Data available from Arkansas and Georgia support the same conclusions as that of Ohio.

Myth: Allowing crossbows will overcrowd the woods, decreasing the chances of success for the conventional bowhunter and will threaten the existence of, or at least, the length of archery-only seasons.

Fact: Referring again to the Ohio data, since the advent of crossbow hunting during archery season, the deer population has increased; the season has gotten longer; more counties have opened for hunting; more hunters have participated; and the harvest-to-permits-sold ratio has improved dramatically.

The facts are: these crossbow myths have no merit. To the contrary, the crossbow expands participation in hunting at a time when such expansion is both desirable and needed. Finally, crossbow use has caused none of the harm that the anti-crossbow proponents have predicted.

KI Jim

04-01-2008, 02:09 PM

I am in favor of letting anyone hunt with a crossbow at any time during the bow or gun seasons. I am also very much in favor of a 2 deer (ONE BUCK) limit per person per year.

Jim

7MM Magnum

04-01-2008, 02:12 PM

let's start here...first of all my shooting time isn't the issue here, I paid my dues and have taken all different types and sizes of game with my bow, both without a sight, and with a SCOPE on my bow. I have also taken some trigger time with my dad's crossbow when it was time to sight it in. bottomline is you remove the human factor from the draw, shooting form, release ect with a crossbow. there is no difference between this and a rifle.

Skyhawk,... I beg to differ,.. the amount of time you've spent shooting a bow DOES make a difference. :rolleyes:

Basically with your attitude regarding the term archery. I'd be willing to bet you've got about what 5, maybe 8 years of shooting a bow under your belt ? I've got OVER 40 years,.. and after you've experienced the many forms of the sport of archery you'll understand that a crossbow isn't that much different than any of the other bows. You still have to figure your distance to your target you still have to figure out your trajectory, your still using a string for propelled energy, your still shooting a shaft (no matter if its 18 inches or 32 inches just think of a person with a short draw length) with a broad head on the end. If your shooting a compound bow your using a mechanical trigger assisted releasing mechanism just like the crossbow does. The ONLY difference is the crossbow is pre-drawn and held in that position until released. Now if and when you get up in years as allot of us have and most certainly WILL,... those muscles & joints have gotten some fair amount of use. Depending on the individual, and their physical makeup,... the ability to pull back and HOLD that stored energy can be painful if possible at all. Once YOU attain a age in the years they are mentioning for the allowing of crossbow use we'll see if your singing the same tune your now singing.

Let YOUR dad turn 65,.. and if his arms, elbow, shoulder joints, etc. become too far gone to hold that energy let's see you tell him,.."Sorry pops,.. your done hunting!" :16suspect

As far as your comparison to a rifle,.. the ONLY resemblance a crossbow has to a rifle is the makeshift stock you shoulder to shoot it. There is NO ignition of a contained substance that builds internal pressures enough to propel a projectile down a straight pressurized rifled barrel to help aid it's flight be true and powerful. Arrows don't fly at 2800-3600 FPS and hold their course for a good 300 yards. Your Lucky if your squeezing 60 yards at 300 FPS. and then you've got the crosswinds to think about,... an arrows flight variation is MUCH greater at much shorter distances than ANY bullet would have.

It's the attitude of people out there like you that remind me of the old days when it was dis-allowed to shoot does because it would hurt the herd. :lol:

Enough said,... your just one of those newer archers out there who are afraid that the allowance of crossbows during the archery season will lessen your success due to the possibility of more people out there you have to compete with. They call it hunting for a reason,.. don't try to disallow others who still want to continue their hunting efforts just because they've become a little too old,.. and arn't as strong and able as they once were.

That's ALL your trying to acomplish with your mindset.:gaga:

7MM Magnum

04-01-2008, 02:19 PM

WoW,... I just got in from work and had an email subscription notice that I just responded to,... come to find out this has been a VERY busy thread while I was at work.

I need to do some catchup reading !! ;)

Ferris_StateHunter

04-01-2008, 02:27 PM

Well anyone can use a crossbow during the rifle season...

I think we should allow all to use, at all times... why should a few people who disagree or feel its unethical decide it for the people as a whole. Its all about choices and right now we are currently limiting choices.

All hunting in all forms should be preserved... Weapons of choice included.

pescadero

04-01-2008, 03:32 PM

It has Trigger, oppose the idea.

So should mechanical releases be outlawed during archery season?

--
lp

Doctari

04-01-2008, 03:59 PM

The first post asked what we thought and propose our ideas about having the crossbow used in October. I am against it, period. I have my reasons and you are free to express yours. There sure is alot of bashing here to anyone that is against it. The idea of someone sitting in a tree stand with a cocked and loaded xgun just does not sit well with me.

swampbuck

04-01-2008, 04:11 PM

They have a safety. do you use a firearm from a treestand

beervo2

04-01-2008, 04:39 PM

If a crossbow does not appeal to you than do'nt use it !! A muzzelloader that shoots 200 or 250 yds. does not appeal to me in muzzel season so I do'nt use one, but I do'nt condem those that do..:help:

Urban Legend

04-01-2008, 04:47 PM

I think the crossbow should be allowed with no restrictions. I started out hunting with a crossbow in Ohio. It got me in the woods at a young age and allowed me to concentrate on becoming a deer hunter. As a natuaral progression, I went to a compound bow. Now I hunt with whatever I feel like and love having the choice to do so.
The crossbow is a great recruitment tool to bring new bowhunters into the sport. It gives kids and women the confidence they need to even attempt to go hunting. It also gets kids off of there buts and away from there Play Stations or Nintendo's. Getting the youth started in in the outdoors is what you should be concerned about for the sake of our sport. The crossbow allows this.
Also it allows for little tommy or tammy to hang with dad instead of dad doing his own thing and never spending time with his kids. And as far as the family thing goes, how awsome would it be to have Grandpa, Dad, and little tommy all in the woods at the same time. Talk about building memories affield, the crossbow will make this possible when Grandpa can't shoot a compound anymore and junior is to young to pull one back.
Let crossbow be allowed in the regular archery season. It is truly the best thing for the sport.

Nick Adams

04-01-2008, 04:51 PM

A very small percentage of state land was purchased with license fees probably less than 1%.

The majority of State land was acquired through tax forfeiture and most of that occurred a long time ago.

More recent land acquisitions are largely funded through Oil & Gas royalties.

Some lands (amount unknown) were purchased using Pittman-Robertson funds.

A very small amount of land purchases are funded by hunting license dollars via the Deer Range Improvement (DRIP) Fund. These lands are almost exclusively deer yards in northern Michigan.

I am not sure exactly where the Payment-In-Lieu-of-Tax (PILT) money comes from but suspect that may actually be tax dollars to the tune of around $14M/yr

-na

KLR

04-01-2008, 05:27 PM

I would be in favor of lifting the current restrictions to allow the use of a crossbow during the archery or firearms season by the general hunting population.

Please pass along our appreciation to the Rep. for holding the NRC's feet to the fire.

miruss

04-01-2008, 05:38 PM

If they don't want them during oct for archery season fine just move archery season to dec and jan i would give up my oct bow hunt just to @#$% off all these crying people what 80 persent of the people hunt private land any ways so whats the chance of you running into them in the first place

7MM Magnum

04-01-2008, 05:40 PM

malainse

04-01-2008, 06:30 PM

Open it up to everyone..... Under current rules or even 60% a large number of people do not qualify. Myself included due to a neck injury.

Thank you for taking the time to address the M-S.com community on this issue.

srconnell22

04-01-2008, 07:37 PM

i would like to see the archery season opened up to crossbows. The more ways to hunt = the more hunters = more money into the economy = lower deer population = healthier deer.

Melthuselah

04-01-2008, 09:51 PM

I thought this thread was for a person to express there opion of the proposed legislation. I see a lot of bashing of people who do not like the bill.
I am 70 years old and have had four shoulder surgerys. I still hunt with a bow. I see no reason to put a age into this bill. I am in favor of streamlining the process to get a crossbow for the disabled but am not in favor of opening it to everyone. Age is not a reason to allow or disallow anyone the use of a crossbow. At the present time physical condition is in Michigan and I preferr it to stay that way. In an earlier post someone mention that Pope and Young does not allow crossbow kills but CBM and Boone and Crockett does. To clairifie that a little Pope and Young is the archery records book. CBM is the official record keeper of big game records for the state of Michigan. Yes crossbow kills are accepted because they are a legel weapon in michigan and have there own catigory in the record book. Boone and Crockett will accept any trophy taken with fair chase that meet there minimums. Hope this helps a little.

swampbuck

04-01-2008, 09:58 PM

Gwiki

04-01-2008, 10:24 PM

DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI

04-01-2008, 10:29 PM

I dont think people are bashing the current propsal. It is more a case of not supporting the bill because it does not go far enough to provide the opportunity to everyone. Do you have a sound scientific/biological reason why we all should not be able to have that option.

NO THEY DON'T. thats why they lie and tell horror stories because they know they're are going to lose this one and have to share.
REMEMBER WHAT MOMMY AND DADDY TAUGHT YOU ALL A LONG TIME AGO
**************SHARE YOUR TOYS*******************:evilsmile

Moonkryket

04-01-2008, 10:41 PM

I would recommend any state that is considering changing its laws to allow crossbows to be used during archery season take a look at Virginia. Crossbows have been legal for archery season in Virginia for 3 years with no adverse consequences although in the beginning the so called “professional………………” and other groups were gnashing their teeth saying it would bring the end of bowhunting season as we knew it. I think it is safe to say “hogwash” to those claims. Hat’s off to Virginia’s law makers for recognizing that the hunting populations’ age continues to get older. Bowhunting license sales in Virginia had been stagnant for years because less youngsters are getting into the sport. Now older guys with arthritis, and other age related conditions that prevent them from drawing a hunting weight vertical bow, can continue bowhunting without having to get doctors’ statements saying they are permanently disabled and not able to draw a bow. As an example, I’ve been an avid bowhunter for 43 years, with long bows, recurves and, at times, with compounds. I don’t consider myself any less of a bowhunter now as a result of my hunting with a crossbow due to my arthritic condition. I doubt that many younger bowhunters will opt for crossbows simply because there is no advantage for them to do so and if some of them do, it certainly won’t create any earth shattering changes to bowhunting. Crossbows are very heavy, loud and a crossbow hunter is virtually assured he’ll only get one shot at a deer so there are substantial disadvantages as compared to hunting with a vertical bow. The old argument that crossbows have triggers is a reason to not allow them in archery season. That mechanical device I used for years called a back tension “TRIGGER” for releasing arrows from my compound is a………….trigger. My point is that compound vertical bows, with drop away rests, peep sights, bubble levels, stabilizers, battery operated sights, slings and shot with mechanical triggers, ARE accepted as legal archery equipment and are surely as far removed, or more so, from traditional and primitive archery than crossbows, so why all the animosity towards crossbows? Makes no sense to me.

As to the 70 year old age limit to hunt with crossbows, they must be joking!!! Many bowhunters at 60 years old I know already have arthritis and other limitations that either make it very difficult, if not impossible, to effectively continue bowhunting and shooting vertical bows.

Crossbow hunting and shooting continues to grow across the country and rightfully so.

malainse

04-01-2008, 11:38 PM

I would support lifting the disability/age restrictions period. Allow the use of crossbows during both archery and firearm seasons. In lieu of completely lifting restrictions, simplify the qualifications (ie a letter from their doctor...period). Thank-you for taking the time to listen and sort through the opinions posted here.

I agree 100%.... Me neighbor had to spend close to $500 to get a crossbow permit. His Dr. said would sign off with no problems...But, the physical therapist said had to do a number of visits (4) to be able to fill out the form....

valerio024

04-01-2008, 11:50 PM

I am in favor of a crossbow for use doing the entire archery season, it would be a great tool to get youngsters into the sport who can't pull a bow of adequate poundage as well as older folks.

skyhawk1

04-02-2008, 12:57 AM

Skyhawk,... I beg to differ,.. the amount of time you've spent shooting a bow DOES make a difference. :rolleyes:

Basically with your attitude regarding the term archery. I'd be willing to bet you've got about what 5, maybe 8 years of shooting a bow under your belt ?

Let YOUR dad turn 65,.. and if his arms, elbow, shoulder joints, etc. become too far gone to hold that energy let's see you tell him,.."Sorry pops,.. your done hunting!" :16suspect

I have been shooting a bow since 1975. that's 33 years. I grew up in an archery shop. I HAVE shot tournament, I HAVE shot several species to include bear, wild boar (real ones, not on a ranch) rabbit, squirrels, woodchucks, and three different species of deer. I HAVE not only completed IBEP, I TAUGHT it! I HAVE been in JOAD, I HAVE been around the block, MY dad IS over 65, he DOES have Rhematoid Arthritis, his shoulders are toast, his hands are unrecognizable as hands he DOES still shoot a custom recurve, and an Onieda, and he does NOT have a crossbow permit. he does own a crossbow, and I HAVE spent time shooting it. I will say this again...I AM NOT AGAINST OLDER PEOPLE AGE 60 AND UP, HANDICAPPED OR YOUNGER ARCHERS NOT ABLE TO SHOOT ADEQUATE DRAW WEIGHT HUNTING WITH CROSSBOWS. I am against healthy individuals with no other reason than the fact that they can, hunting with crossbows. you don't know me, keep your assumptions to yourself!

Fur and Feathers

04-02-2008, 01:46 AM

Slick fishing

04-02-2008, 02:46 AM

The bill is a fine first step in the issue of crossbow use. I support it 100%.

In reality I strongly believe that crossbows should be legalized for the general bowhunting season.

:yeahthat: I agree 100% percent with this statement..Cya Slick

Whit1

04-02-2008, 04:52 AM

Guys, let's keep the personal stuff, including juvenile "name calling", out of this thread. We have been asked for our input on a bill pending in the state legislature so let's keep to that. Let's take the rare opportunity that has been offered us by Rep. Sheltrown's aide Brady and voice our opinions, either way, with grace and dignity.

Enough said!

Bmac

04-02-2008, 05:32 AM

I support the use of crossbows as a legal choice in any season. I do not own one or plan to use one, at least not for many years. If it gets more people in the woods I support it.

PWood

04-02-2008, 08:35 AM

I support the bill as a good first step to relaxing the restrictions on crossbow use. I believe that crossbows should be allowed during any bow season for anyone who chooses to use one.

Joe Archer

04-02-2008, 09:31 AM

Whit1

04-02-2008, 09:56 AM

I like the bill as it is stated. I think moving the minimum age to 65 makes sense. I know that my 78 year old father would use a crossbow.
I would still be in favor of discriminating between crossbows and compound bows for the general public. The reason for my bias is a passion and dedication to archery. Because there is so much involved in becoming proficient with a bow and arrow, the personal rewards and satisfaction are that much greater. It is my love and commitment to preserving the art that prevents me from wanting to see crossbows become a viable shortcut. In essence I am not looking at what could be gained. I am looking at what will be lost.
Also, if you came up with a set of questions you could post a thread as a poll in these forums to see what majority opinion would be if forced to make a choice. If you created an on-line survey and posted a link to it here I think you would get great response as well.
Good luck, and thanks for your efforts.
<----<<<

Thanks for your excellent post which, of course, is normal for you.

Your use of the word "passion" caught my eye right away. While I commend you for it I find it insufficient reason upon which to base fish and game management decisions.

The question has been asked many times in these forums about reasons, based on science and sound resource management, for the use of crossbows to be so stringently legislated and whenever changes are proposed certain groups, their members, and other like thinking archers protest with such vehamence. So far there has been no offerings. There was one very flawed "study" by a guy (I forget his name, but Munster will know it) who set out from the beginning to prove that crossbows were such an upgrade in firepower and efficiency in harvesting game that they never could be allowed during archery hunting seasons. Setting out trying to prove a point is no way to conduct a scientific study and holds no credence in scientific circles.

Thanks again for your calm, reasoned post.

For those of you who are interested in crossbows take a look at the following site. It is called Crossbow Nation and is based in Ohio.
For those of you interested in a site dedicated to crossbows take a look at the following. It is based in Ohio.

http://www.crossbownation.com/community/index.php

stillwaiting

04-02-2008, 10:03 AM

I think EVERYONE should be allowed to use a crossbow, not just for people with disabilities.

wally-eye

04-02-2008, 10:07 AM

Thanks for your excellent post which, of course, is normal for you.

Your use of the word "passion" caught my eye right away. While I commend you for it I find it insufficient reason upon which to base fish and game management decisions.

The question has been asked many times in these forums about reasons, based on science and sound resource management, for the use of crossbows to be so stringently legislated and whenever changes are proposed certain groups, their members, and other like thinking archers protest with such vehamence. So far there has been no offerings. There was one very flawed "study" by a guy (I forget his name, but Munster will know it) who set out from the beginning to prove that crossbows were such an upgrade in firepower and efficiency in harvesting game that they never could be allowed during archery hunting seasons. Setting out trying to prove a point is no way to conduct a scientific study and holds no credence in scientific circles.

Thanks again for your calm, reasoned post.

For those of you who are interested in crossbows take a look at the following site. It is called Crossbow Nation and is based in Ohio.
For those of you interested in a site dedicated to crossbows take a look at the following. It is based in Ohio.

http://www.crossbownation.com/community/index.php

That an excellent site you posted about Mr. Milt........wise ol sage you are.....:coolgleam

TOW

04-02-2008, 10:25 AM

The age limit of 69 is about 15 years too late to retain older bowhunters.

Gathered data pretty well points out that by the age of 55 an increasingly large percentage of bowhunters are dropping out.

If the goal of this bill is to retain older bowhunter/hunters then the age limit should be 55. Address the problem, not just go by emotions or what will fly with vocal minorities

Being an older person (69 this June) I understand about the aches and pains of the aging process. While some seniors are as fit as a fiddle, others are on the opposite end of the spectrum - and everywhere in between.

For some it is the old song - "Some days are diamonds and some days are stones”. There are some days that an older person could actually shoot 50 or so arrows in the back yard. The next day he might not be able to pull the bow back once. I'm sure that some older folks on here know exactly what I am saying.

No doubt the 80% permanent physical disability is keeping a lot of Michigan bowhunters out of the deer woods. The cost of acquiring a "handicapped permit" has already been addressed by some on here. That is real money out of the pocket to prove an 80% disability in order to bowhunt. Shame on the Physical Therapist that had to have 4 sessions to determine if someone could pull a hunting weight bow back or not. The problems with un-necessary government mandates, such as this, is that some will take advantage of it to drain a little more money out of their patient's billfold. No need for him to be involved in this at all. A Doctor filling out the proper form should be enough.

On addition to the time and money that a person has to spend in order to get a "handicapped permit" there is also quite a stigma placed on the individual about being "handicapped". Rather than accept that erroneous stigma some bowhunters just hang it up. My wife is physically challenged in walking (MS) and it took a LONG time for her to start using a cane and a longer time to get a handicapped license plate for her car. Pride? No doubt, but that stigma exists. Allow crossbows for everyone and that stigma disappears.

We are losing hunters all across this great land of ours and we should be doing everything in our power to streamline hunters entry into hunting and retention of existing hunters.

I personally believe for crossbows that there should be no age limit and no handicapped permits. I believe that every hunter should be able to make a choice on which piece of archery hunting gear that they want to use. Be it longbow, recurve, compound or crossbow.

Joe Archer,

I too share your love of archery hunting. This fall will be my 41st season. I've hunted and killed all kinds of animals with longbows, recurves, compounds and now crossbows. I have found that when I switched from one piece of archery hunting gear to another my actual hunt was not diminished at all. I am still basically hunting the same way I did when I first started out. The deer are no dumber just because I have a high tech compound or a crossbow in my hands that they were when I had my longbow.

My "personal rewards and satisfaction" are still the same. The mastering of the particular piece of archery equipment has very little, if anything, to do with the actual hunt.

Could you tell me if you would lose any "personal rewards and satisfaction" in your hunt if the hunter over on the next 40 was using a crossbow instead of a high tech, high let off compound? Harvest stats from states that allow both compounds and crossbows indicate that the harvest percentage is basically identical.

The absolute beauty of bowhunting is that we can all set our own standards as to "personal rewards and satisfaction". That can range from shooting the most up to date modern equipment and shooting anything that comes down the deer run to self made bows and hunting only P & Y bucks. We bowhunt to please no one but ourselves. That is quite a range of what we can set for OURSELVES. But, why try and set OUR standards for others?

The crossbow is just another choice in archery hunting gear. One that a person can use or not use, just like a choice of compound versus a recurve. Your choice, but why limit the choice of others who's hunting that will not affect you one bit?

Good discussion.

GIDEON

04-02-2008, 10:54 AM

Allow them---heavily restricted. Are thet a need or a convience(sp), every Oct. I wonder if there would be as many bow huters if it hadn,t been for the "WHITETAIL HUNTER", or would there be as many muzzle loader hunter's without the in-line. As for the number of hunters, well a hunter will hunt, with or without conviences(sp)

Joe Archer

04-02-2008, 11:17 AM

Could you tell me if you would lose any "personal rewards and satisfaction" in your hunt if the hunter over on the next 40 was using a crossbow instead of a high tech, high let off compound? Harvest stats from states that allow both compounds and crossbows indicate that the harvest percentage is basically identical..
The personal rewards and satisfaction concerning archery that I was referring to were not limited to hunting situations. Although it is true that I took up archery so that I could hunt deer, my dedication and desire to preserve this form of shooting go far beyond any ramifications of taking wild game. I know that traditional archers made the same arguments concerning the introduction of compounds. Having experienced the mystical connection of mind and body while instinctively shooting a recurve, I at least understand their reservations. To think that future generations will take the easy way out and pick up a crossbow in place of a recurve or compound saddens me. As stated by Whit, my opinion is not governed by science. It does not incorporate the effect of game management into its limitations. My opinion is only formed by something that has touched my soul and given me so much pleasure that I want to see it passed on to generations until the end of time.
In this age of technology we could easily forgo sexual intercourse as a means of procreation. One could argue that we could increase conception efficiency, due away with unwanted pregnancy, and eliminate disease. For population control, and disease management science supports doing away with intercourse altogether. Others would argue that the physical connection between a man and a woman go much further than procreation. They would argue the importance of passion; the emotional, spiritual and psychological connection between man and women.
Yes Whit, passion is the foundation for my objection to permitting crossbows for the general population. But who is to say that passion should not have its place in the hunting society? In fact, wouldn't most hunters say that passion is indeed our common bond?
<----<<<

Munsterlndr

04-02-2008, 11:40 AM

There was one very flawed "study" by a guy (I forget his name, but Munster will know it) who set out from the beginning to prove that crossbows were such an upgrade in firepower and efficiency in harvesting game that they never could be allowed during archery hunting seasons. Setting out trying to prove a point is no way to conduct a scientific study and holds no credence in scientific circles.

Ah yes, the "proof" that has circulated on so many anti-crossbow newsgroups as evidence of the "unfair" nature of the crossbow. It was originally hailed as an example of just your "average" hunter, who did not have any feelings for or against crossbows but who decided to get the "facts" by trying one himself. After the conclusion of his "test" he railed against the fact that when shooting from sandbags he was able to put 4 bolts in a 5" spread at 100 yards. This was evidence he claimed that the crossbow was "too" accurate and gave crossbowmen an "unfair" advantage.

He mentioned in passing that while he was shooting field points, he was reasonably sure that he could duplicate this feat with broaheads. The field points penetrated 8" into hay targets.

His conclusion was that the devastating accuracy of the crossbow was inherently "unfair" and would wreak havoc on archery seasons.

After a little bit of research was done on the Author of this "Test" it was determined that he was not just your average unbiased hunter. His name is Mike Brust and he is a former President of the Wisconsin Bow hunters and is Midwest Chairman of the North American Bowhunting coaliton and has made presentations at the National Bowhunting Summit discussing on how to keep crossbows out of archery season. Hmmmm..... No hidden agenda there, huh? :lol:

At the end of the day his propaganda really does nothing to discredit crossbows. Can a weapon be too accurate? What a silly idea! When shooting at a living creature I'd say that we should be using as accurate a weapon as possible. Does being able to hit a target at 100 yards with field points mean that the majority of hunters will be taking shots with broadheads at game at those ranges? Again, this is just plain silly. Lot's of guys can hit targets at long ranges with compounds, that does not mean that the vast majority of hunters are going to be taking 70-80 yard shots at deer. As to his conclusion that it is "obvious" the impact that using crossbows would have on archery seasons, I'd agree with him that the conclusion is obvious. The answer is virtually none. We know this based on hard data from Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, Georgia and many other states that allow crossbows. I'll take the results of hard data over the musings of someone with a pre-determined agenda, any day.

Rudi's Dad

04-02-2008, 12:15 PM

If it doesn’t need to drawn and held in the presence of the game hunted its not a bow and therefore does not belong in archery season unless disabled, regardless of age.

This makes sense to me, unless you eventually want to just change deer season (private land) from Oct 1 till Jan 1. Shoot your limit with whatever, guns bows or who cares.
Public land should have more stringent rules because of possible conflict with upland hunters with dogs and a larger number of hunters competing for quality time in the woods.
The beef I hear about bow season is the rifle hunters (public land) are claiming the buck population is shot out by the bow hunters. Maybe bow hunters should be required to shoot antlerless only on public land..

cadillacjethro

04-02-2008, 12:59 PM

The personal rewards and satisfaction concerning archery that I was referring to were not limited to hunting situations. Although it is true that I took up archery so that I could hunt deer, my dedication and desire to preserve this form of shooting go far beyond any ramifications of taking wild game. I know that traditional archers made the same arguments concerning the introduction of compounds. Having experienced the mystical connection of mind and body while instinctively shooting a recurve, I at least understand their reservations. To think that future generations will take the easy way out and pick up a crossbow in place of a recurve or compound saddens me. As stated by Whit, my opinion is not governed by science. It does not incorporate the effect of game management into its limitations. My opinion is only formed by something that has touched my soul and given me so much pleasure that I want to see it passed on to generations until the end of time.
In this age of technology we could easily forgo sexual intercourse as a means of procreation. One could argue that we could increase conception efficiency, due away with unwanted pregnancy, and eliminate disease. For population control, and disease management science supports doing away with intercourse altogether. Others would argue that the physical connection between a man and a woman go much further than procreation. They would argue the importance of passion; the emotional, spiritual and psychological connection between man and women.
Yes Whit, passion is the foundation for my objection to permitting crossbows for the general population. But who is to say that passion should not have its place in the hunting society? In fact, wouldn't most hunters say that passion is indeed our common bond?
<----<<<

An excellent post Joe and I feel much the same way. However , I believe it's up to me to pass along my passion and the reasons for it. Allowing crossbows does not restrict me from using a long bow, recurve, or compound. It does open up another avenue for someone else to develop a passion for hunting whitetails.

Socks

04-02-2008, 01:12 PM

I think it's a personal choice of what you want to use (if allowed by law). An older person or even someone with a shoulder injury one year should have the option if they so choose. Also, I don't think my wife, who doesn't hunt, could pull back a bow that has enough weight behind it to take a deer. Should she be excluded just because of her small stature? I don't think so. Me, I'll just keep using a compound bow until I get too old or worn out. Then what do I do? All that being said I do think I would look at a perfectly fit person kind of funny that uses a crossbow, but it could be their choice.

I'm for the bill or very minimal restrictions or heck none all.

beervo2

04-02-2008, 01:49 PM

PLEASE, if you are for this bill email Brady or MR.Sheltrown with your opinions, just don't leave them here, strength comes in ###.You know the other group will be giving their opinions, so far Brady only has 7 emails..:help:

TOW

04-02-2008, 02:35 PM

The personal rewards and satisfaction concerning archery that I was referring to were not limited to hunting situations. Although it is true that I took up archery so that I could hunt deer, my dedication and desire to preserve this form of shooting go far beyond any ramifications of taking wild game. I know that traditional archers made the same arguments concerning the introduction of compounds. Having experienced the mystical connection of mind and body while instinctively shooting a recurve, I at least understand their reservations. To think that future generations will take the easy way out and pick up a crossbow in place of a recurve or compound saddens me. As stated by Whit, my opinion is not governed by science. It does not incorporate the effect of game management into its limitations. My opinion is only formed by something that has touched my soul and given me so much pleasure that I want to see it passed on to generations until the end of time.

SNIP OF NON-RELEVENT "INTERCOURSE"..

<----<<<

I understand, but can not one do their own thing and also pass that along to whoever is receptive of that means of shooting archery and/or hunting?

I've seen a good number of bowhunters start out with a crossbow and then take up a compound or a longbow. Why should one be restricted to a choice of only longbows, recurves and compounds?

There are a good number of members on here that wouldn't dream of shooting/hunting with a compound, much less as crossbow AND THAT IS OK. This is not, or should not be, a "if you don't do it my way, then you are doing it wrong".

Just like not everyone wants to (or even can) shoot/hunt with a longbow or a recurve, not everyone wants to shoot/hunt with a compound. Please do not sell us crossbowers short in that we do not enjoy shooting/hunting with a crossbow just like a trad likes his longbow/recurve and a compounder loves his high tech, high let off compound. It is just different archery equipment

To think that future generations will take the easy way out and pick up a crossbow in place of a recurve or compound saddens me.

Why? I'm for "future generations" to hunt with whatever archery equipment they want as long as they are hunting. Any restricton that we can come up with will cull out more and more hunters. Numbers that we can ill afford to lose.That is what restrictions do. Where do you believe archery hunting would be today if millions of bowhunters didn't "take the easy way out" and start shooting and hunting with a compound?

You do agree that shooting/hunting with a longbow/recurve is more difficult than shooting/hunting with a compound, right?

BTW - You are right, there is something "mystical" about the flight of an arrow, no matter what piece of archery equipment launched it.

.

7MM Magnum

04-02-2008, 03:04 PM

My, My, 7mm Magnum, I think you done teed him off! This is what ticks me off about everyone arguing here. The only people we are hurting is ourselves. This is exactly what the antis want us to do. Keep this junk up and we won't have anything to argue over. I personally won't use a crossbow, until I need one, but if someone else wants to, that's fine with me. I hunt on state land and welcome other people to share it with me. I for one just love to be out, and wish more people would take up the sport. The woods don't belong to you or me, they belong to all of us. So just shut up and stop the bashing, I for one am all for letting crossbows into the Michigan woods. Bringem on!!!!!!

I musta' really missed some of his "input" as the reply was edited by Whit1,...

I'm not here to try and get into a pissing match with anyone,... just trying to state MY view on the issue of the allowance of crossbows in the field. I've been trying to explain them in as basic a format as possible. I'm all for them in either, or BOTH hunting seasons. There have been MANY valid points brought up for the positive effects of this change,.. and I just can't understand how some here who are suppose to be sportsmen and women (didn't want to leave the girls out just in case I missed something else) can't honestly see all the good things that can be created with it.

Allow older hunters to continue in the field hunting.
Allow women and children that don't sufficient body strength to hunt.
Bring more revenue to the DNR by selling more licenses and in turn benefit ALL sports persons.
Help with the regulating of the deer herd numbers by providing a healthier herd.

(just to name a few)

As I stated earlier,.. I have been shooting a bow for a LONG time,.. I first picked one up in the late 50's,... a long bow. I graduated with the times also when the recurves went on the market and shot instinctively with a 3 finger glove right on up until the time I got my compound (1996).

I went from Cedar feather fletched shafts to aluminum and fiberglass,.. and now,... Blazer's and carbon Gold-tips. I took my first competition trophy shooting silhouette in 1963 using a Bear Magnum recurve with a 48# pull,.. shooting instinctive, and kept on going from there. I've graduated with the times as much as the equipment has. I decided on the compound due basically to the let-off factor as I was finding it more and more difficult to hold a 65# draw recurve (Bear Super Magnum) at full draw for a sustained length of time while hunting. (had one give me a stare down match for a heck of a long time at full draw)

As age is having it's way with me much to my hatred of it,.. I have found out that I "don't bounce" like I used to. :lol: Old injuries that I just shrugged off when I was younger are now deciding to get even with me. Some days the ol' joints feel like rusty hinges and I can sometimes get away with pre-medicating in anticipation of things that I'm going to feel before hand, but I know that one of these days sometime in the future it's not going to work anymore.:(

I'm not going to just give up my love of hunting to appease a minority of people who basically just don't like the word "crossbow" out in the woods with them. That day hopefully is in my far far future when I'll need to,... but the option should be there for me if and when the need arises.

I also have no ill-regard for anyone to use one,.. regardless of their health or stature,.. it's just another TOOL to be utilized in the pursuit of the hunt as far as I'm concerned.

To me,.. it's kinda' like saying you can only use a 30-30 during firearms season,... So sell that 30-06, that .308, that 7 mag, and your .243,.. we don't think that they should be used for hunting because of the power they have, and flat shooting aspects of them,.. it's unfair to the rest of us.

It's the same mentality in my book! ;)

Whit1

04-02-2008, 03:30 PM

Yes Whit, passion is the foundation for my objection to permitting crossbows for the general population. But who is to say that passion should not have its place in the hunting society? In fact, wouldn't most hunters say that passion is indeed our common bond?
<----<<<

Having passion for the activities that we love is a great thing. My only point is that we shouldn't be basing management regulations....and hunting is a management issue.....on emotions......i.e. passions.....is not sound scientific management.

weatherby

04-02-2008, 04:59 PM

to simply not to discriminate between crossbows and compound bows for anyone.

This one gets my vote. I would actually go and get $$ out of the bank for me and my daughter. She just can't seem to pull enough poundage back no matter how much she tries.

michigandeerslayer

04-02-2008, 06:57 PM

I say its a weapon to each is there own, its like me telling the rifle guys they cant use any thing over a 30-06

If we hunters are going to argue over weapons of choice what is next???

bigmike

04-02-2008, 10:14 PM

I support the use of them;)

Bwilson

04-02-2008, 10:52 PM

I am a new member to this site. I found this site and have enjoyed it due to the good people and suggestions and sharing experiances with one another. As a sportsman i would only think that we all would want to help a fellow sportsman out wether its fishing hunting or even hiking. Using a cross bow is Just another weapon that allows a sportman to be able to enjoy thier experiance in the woods.

Even a 12 year old can sometimes have a very difficult time drawing a bow back and holding it. Resulting in possily a poor hit and not a humane kill. As a sportsman i would think that we all would like to see a humane kill. There are many diffrent reasons why someone would want to use a crossbow in the woods.
I know two people that are ex-competative swimmers who have had shoulder surgerys and cant draw a bow comfortably to make humane kill. Niether of them are considered Handicapped to get the right to use a crossbow.
Hunting is Hunting wether you use a crossbow,bow,gun,spear,tommahawk or even a atalatal. As long as you are confident with a humane kill with your weapon.

I support hunting

Ferris_StateHunter

04-03-2008, 12:05 AM

I started out using a compound when i first started hunting, an older bow with little let off, and now I shoot one with 80 percent... Does it make it easier to shoot, heck yea but do I still have to practice and shoot my bow to make myself consistant. I even have bow fished with a old recurve which has from time to time gotten me curious to try it while deer hunting..

I think a move to open it to all will make more people interested.. which is something we need. Sure some will always stay with a crossbow, but then again some people only gun hunt so what should we think of them. IMO people will want to try different things.

Its the PASSION of hunting that makes people want to challenge themselves and try different things. Whether it be different game, or trying to get kills on film or other various weapons. The imortant thing is our heritage is being passed on, and no matter what it takes this should be the important part, If you do not want to try it, then fine you do not have to, but what exactly would one be loosing by letting others try it. But I think we are loosing when we put uneccessary restrictions on the weapon of choice,

Bellyup

04-03-2008, 12:49 PM

You can open up a whole new lobbying group Pro-Hunting. You can get the crossbow manufacturers behind you when fighting the anti-hunters.

You get more marketing dollars spent in MI.

You get variety. Just like people buy new trucks because they want to try something different this time. It adds to the experience of hunting. Gets the excitment level back up.

I personally don't have a horse in this race, but like to see new oppurtunities to enhance an already great sport. I used to deer hunt, both bow and gun, but have since shifted to waterfowl.

One drawback to opening up the laws on these if they attract new people; more people in the crowded woods of public ground. I know the last time my grandfather and I hunted near Houghton Lake opening day of gun season there was far more orange in the woods than deer. I actually decided to walk out early because about 5 or 6 folks set up on the same valley I was. Talk about a cross fire... I whistled loudly on my way out too.

So I guess to go along with the lobbying of allowing crossbows for all to use, we might try to get landowners to be more gracious aloowing hunters on their land. I know a lot who allow it, but I also know a lot who don't.

Joe Archer

04-04-2008, 09:33 AM

Having passion for the activities that we love is a great thing. My only point is that we shouldn't be basing management regulations....and hunting is a management issue.....on emotions......i.e. passions.....is not sound scientific management.
I think a valid question than becomes; why not let everyone hunt with their weapon of choice from October through December? Can we assume that limiting the current firearms seasons to a two week period is in place primarily to control harvest numbers? Can we assume that a 3 month weapon-of-choice season would result in over harvest in many areas? Or, should we just say that the two-week firearms season has no scientific management rationale, and it is based more on tradition and emotion than it is on management goals?
If we believe that the two-week firearms season is adequate to accomplish harvest rates in most areas, than we have to at least consider the effect of adding three months of cross-bow hunting.
In a poll on these forums that 77 people took the time to answer better than 50% of current gun hunters that do not bow hunt would hunt with a crossbow if given the chance. If Michigan had 750,000 deer hunters last year, this poll would suggest 156,000 additional hunters in the field during the October - December bow seasons if crossbows are made legal. This would be an approximate 50% increase of hunters in the archery season. If anything, this may be a gross under estimation. Here is a link to the poll. http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=212009
If we are going to base deer management on scientific data, than we really need to move slowly, gather data, and make sound decisions. If we make them legal for all now; will this impact the length of archery season in the future? How will it impact the harvest rates on public land? How will it affect harvest rates on private land? What do we want to accomplish? What are our management goals?
In any case, I like the bill as proposed making it easier for handicapped hunters to gain a permit and allowing senior citizens the chance to use a crossbow. Why not survey the hunting public in Michigan to see exactly how many new hunters would be in the woods during archery season if allowed, and make our decisions based on their estimated impact?
I would hope to preserve the length of the current archery season. Once we analyze the data we might find it better to have a stand alone crossbow season. We might combine crossbows with muzzle-loader season. Who knows, we might even combine compound with crossbows, limit this season to November and designate October for traditional archery (recurve and longbow) hunters. The point is, we have many more options available than to just make crossbows legal for three months. We should really compile some data, look at the evidence, estimate the impact to all locations of our state, and make sound and fair decisions that will benefit hunters and management.
<----<<<

awshucks

04-04-2008, 10:34 AM

"If we make them legal for all now; will this impact the length of archery season in the future? How will it impact the harvest rates on public land? How will it affect harvest rates on private land? What do we want to accomplish? What are our management goals?"

In none of the states that currently allow them has an archery season length or bag limit ever been reduced due to their use. Until about2002 they were only legal in 3 states, since then the list has grown to 13 or 14 for all or parts of archery seasons, including a few for senior hunters. Since the harvest success stats are nearly identical for both the xbow and the compound in the states that even bother to keep track, there is really no logical reason to exclude them.

huntingfool43

04-04-2008, 10:56 AM

I guess I just don't understand why anyone would want to keep people from hunting. The bill as written will help but why not just make them legal for everyone.We are not talking extra bag limits etc and you are only allowed to buy so many tags. Once you fill them you are done, dead is dead. As far as an any weapon choice NO, with a crossbow you still need to get the animal in close just like a bow where as a firearm it would be a slaughter if it went on for 3 months. Anything that will increase the numer of hunters the better as long as it don't have a negative impact on the wildlife.

hunting man

04-04-2008, 07:33 PM

I haven't ever heard one solid reason they shouldn't be allowed. The limit remains the same. I don't care what weapon you chose to hunt with.

I will get mine and I don't care how you get yours.

Skinner 2

04-04-2008, 10:35 PM

I feel the choice should be left up to the people to use whatever they have they have the most confidence in, and are most accurate with. If you can aim and harvest most every deer you shoot at with a long bow fine. If to get to that point you step up to a compound with sights so be it. Now if a release aid is need OK step up to the plate. AS long as a person can go out and have a good time and feel good about what they are doing. If somebody needs a crossbow to get to point of consistant kills then they should have the choice to step up to this.

We as hunters OWE it to the animal we hunt for quick humane kills. God knows we fell bad when we don't. If a person likes to hunt and is forced to use (and yes forced is the word) what is an inferior weapon to them, they will still hunt and NOT have the confidence in the shot. They will still hunt and limit shots but will still loose deer. Is this the goal? Should the animal being hunted be forced to bear the brunt of this.

Myself as example. I can shoot a recurve/longbow at targets just fine. I had no problem hitting the deer. Problem I had was putting them down. I ended up with a compound and sights. Still shooting fingers and the problem is gone. I shot well enough this way to shoot for Browning Archery for many years. I quit shooting for them when my son was born. I always said I competition shot to help my hunting and I had the time. My heart was in the hunting not the competition shoots. My time is now spent with my familly and I still shoot a compound with fingers. I still get my deer.

Now my dad and number one hunting partner (my son will soon be old enough to hunt) is 80 years old. He is not disabled and loves to hunt. Most days he can get a couple of shots off with his compound at targets. The last couple years he has not fired his bow at a deer. He did try more then a few times to shoot a deer but was not able to pull the bow back ONCE the deer were there. Last year I know he didn't go out a few times because he felt bad about this. He's old and weaker then he has ever been and still likes to hunt. He like bowhunting for deer best over all other hunting. Now it kinda turn into deer watching and enjoying my success.

For all you people against using Crossbows Thank you very much for at least not stopping my dad from watching deer or is that next????? Are you really worried that an 80 year old man will put that big of a dent in YOUR deer heard????? Also let me thank you for not allowing me the glory in my dad harvesting perhap what would be his last bow deer because you don't like crossbows.

By the way here is my dad at 79 years old with his Michigan Cow Elk. I was his guide and we walked her up in the snow. My dad was the oldest elk hunter that year and tagged the oldest elk taken, Oddly it was also the 79 elk registered in two December ago.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/skinner2/elkw1.jpg
Note I would have placed a recent deer bow kill here but looking back we do not have any. Mostly his choice because when he did get the bow back he didn't have confidence in his shooting. If we lowered the poundage any more he would have to use rubber suction tipped arrows!

Hopefully he will still be hunting when his grandson is old enough to hunt.

Skinner

Northern-Lights

04-04-2008, 11:37 PM

Opinions are like armpits...everyone has one....or more. But, since opinions are wanted...I'll chime in. Personally, I think anyone over age 55 should be allowed to use whatever weapon they choose....as long as proficiency is proven. (Proficiancy is something I believe everyone should have to prove...no matter what weapon is used...)

On private land...the person should be able to use whatever weapon they desire...no matter the age.

On public land....crossbows should be allowed to be used by anyone during the primative weapons season, or during the gun season.

Archery hunting should be what we currently have.....with the exception of crossbows for anyone age 55 or older or handicapped (as defined by the proposed new rules).

TOW

04-05-2008, 08:30 AM

Your dad is a trooper! We can all hope and pray to still be out there in the deer woods when we are 80 years old.

Yes, we need to make accomodations for folks such as your dad. He and others like him paved the way for us today.

Any age law should be set at a point where the numbers of bowhunters start dropping off and that is 55. Of course I say let EVERYONE have their choice in archery hunting gear and we would not have to worrry about when a person gets too old to pull a bow back anymore.

Legal archery equipment for everyone.....

Luv2hunteup

04-05-2008, 09:01 AM

I see no reason that anyone should not be able to use a crossbow during archery season. The only reason for not wanting it are selfish ones. Michigan has limited tags for deer so what difference does it make if the tag is used in October, November or December.

Riva

04-05-2008, 09:36 AM

You have asked for opinions on the proposed legistaltion to expand the medical criteria that will allow a person with a disability to take game with a crossbow. Below is my correspondence that I recently mailed to the Natural Resources Commission (and others) which, as you know, is also reviewing these matters.

March 25, 2008

Commissioner Keith J. Charters
Chairperson
Natural Resources Commission
Department of Natural Resources
State of Michigan
P.O. Box 3002
Lansing, MI 48909

RE: Crossbow Hunting Eligibility for Persons with a Disability

Mr. Chairperson and Commissioners:

The State of Michigan has established that a crossbow is a reasonable accommodation that will allow a person with a disability to hunt game during the established hunting seasons. Currently, the NRC is considering expanding the criteria that defines a disability and/or its degree of severity in order to obtain a permit to hunt with a crossbow. I applaud this noble effort however; it is my contention that the very manner and methodology surrounding your efforts to establish new and/or expanded criteria to be, in and of itself, fundamentally flawed and, I respectfully suggest that this entire line of thinking should be abandoned.

It’ s a fact that the way that the Michigan system is set up, regardless of any broadening of the definitions, will still result in people with certain disabilities from being ineligible for a crossbow permit. This fact denies them a fundamental right that is granted them under the provisions of the American with Disabilities Act (ADA). The only reasonable way to avoid having individuals fall through the cracks, and thus avoiding a violation of the ADA, is to do away with specific criteria and leave the determination up to a physician, a method that is currently used by many of the states that make provisions for the use of a crossbow by disabled hunters. Anything short of this is going to set the stage for a judicial determination of the legality of excluding those with certain disabilities from the right to use a crossbow.

Furthermore, by doing away with specific criteria your policy should then state that, for a person with a disability to obtain a permit to take game with a crossbow, the individual merely be required to obtain and produce a letter from their own personal physician stating that in his/her professional opinion, the applicant has either a permanent and/or temporary condition that render him/her unable to pull and/or hold a long-, or compound-bow.

Again, this places the onus of defining, establishing and, determining the degree of severity of a disability squarely on the shoulders of the applicant and the physician and not the NRC. Of equal importance, is the fact that these matters, which are of a highly personal nature, are kept within in a totally-confidential, doctor-patient environment and not in the public domain.

Thank you for allowing me this opportunity to share my thoughts and recommendations with you.

Respectfully yours,

swampbuck

04-05-2008, 01:45 PM

while researching crossbows in michigan I found a few things of interest ,other than the opposition that the m.b.h. expresses at every meeting.

an article by Sharpe posted here in 2001..

"Friends in the Department of Natural Resources tell me the agency's leaders believe crossbow use should be liberalized to increase their ability to control the deer herd, expand hunting opportunities, and sell more licenses at a time when sales are dropping off"
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-4189.html

a meeting of the DNR Accessability Advisory Council june 2007 They considered the idea but decided not to act at this time. Didnt reject it though.

"--Last month, the NRC considered amending current crossbow regulations to allow all
able bodied individuals to use crossbows without special permits during the archery
season. The commission decided against expanding the regulation at this time."

and also this.

"--Statute still defines part of the requirement to be "permanently disabled." The NRC has
no authority to change this requirement; this would take legislative action"

of course the M.B.H. was right on trying to block that possibility. NRC meeting 2007

"Bruce Levey, Michigan Bow Hunters Association, recommended holding implementation of revised crossbow regulations while the DNR works with the Michigan Bow Hunters Association on this issue. The Association is interested in transferring the authority on modified bows from the Legislature to the DNR. He would like the ad hoc committee on crossbows to reconvene for further discussion on the crossbow regulations"

olliek

04-05-2008, 08:57 PM

I too have a passion. I would love to sit on a stump in the October sunshine and enjoy the warm autumn afternoon with a weapon that I could use to fill a tag.
I`m 67 and have beat cancer (at least for now) but cannot draw or hold a bow.
Therefore I`m left to setting a few traps and watching the deer roam on my 85 acres.
I`m not trying to interfere with someone elses passion, I just would like to join the fun before the mid November cold and wind forces me inside my heated blind with a rifle accross my lap.
Hopefully, the State of Michigan will realize that the crossbow is just another tool that hunters can utilize to pursue thier passion. Dave.

Riva

04-05-2008, 11:49 PM

"I too have a passion. I would love to sit on a stump in the October sunshine and enjoy the warm autumn afternoon with a weapon that I could use to fill a tag.I`m 67 and have beat cancer (at least for now) but cannot draw or hold a bow. Therefore I`m left to setting a few traps and watching the deer roam on my 85 acres. I`m not trying to interfere with someone elses passion, I just would like to join the fun before the mid November cold and wind forces me inside my heated blind with a rifle accross my lap.

Hopefully, the State of Michigan will realize that the crossbow is just another tool that hunters can utilize to pursue thier passion. Dave. I too have a passion. I would love to sit on a stump in the October sunshine and enjoy the warm autumn afternoon with a weapon that I could use to fill a tag. I`m 67 and have beat cancer (at least for now) but cannot draw or hold a bow. Therefore I`m left to setting a few traps and watching the deer roam on my 85 acres.

I`m not trying to interfere with someone elses passion, I just would like to join the fun before the mid November cold and wind forces me inside my heated blind with a rifle accross my lap. Hopefully, the State of Michigan will realize that the crossbow is just another tool that hunters can utilize to pursue thier passion."

Dave____________________________________

Olliek; (Dave) the State of Michigan has already acknowledged that a crossbow is a reasonable accommodation (to use your words: "tool") to provide a person with a disability the opportunity to become an equal participant in any of our current hunting seasons. It's already on the books, it's part of the law. It's a done deal...Crossbows are "LEGAL"! That is no longer a point of contention.

The problem (point of contention) is that, the current DNR criteria (as well as the new proposed criteria) that defines which specific disability, and the degree of severity of that specific disability, determines who can/and who can not, obtain a permit to hunt game with a crossbow during the archery season, is set up so only the most severely disabled persons will be able to obtain a permit. There will still be persons with a disability, perhaps like yourself, who do not meet the specific definition of the disability and/or its degree of severity, yet still are unable to pull and/or hold a long-, and/or compound bow. That, is the flaw of the system that you and I must change!

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) states that is illegal to discriminate against any person with a disability. It does not state specific disability and/or degree of severity of the specific disability. Rather, it merely states "disability" --as in, any/all disabilities. Since your disability render you unable to pull and or hold a long-. and/or compound bow, you are entitled to petition the government so that you are able to utilized the reasonable accommodation (aka "crossbow") that will provide you with the opportunity to become a equal participant during any/all of Michigan's established hunting seasons.

Here's the solution...

By doing away with specific criteria the DNR policy should then state that, for a person with a disability to obtain a permit to take game with a crossbow, the individual merely be required to obtain and produce a letter from their own personal physician stating that in his/her professional opinion, the applicant has either a permanent and/or temporary condition that render him/her unable to pull and/or hold a long-, or compound-bow. This places the onus of defining, establishing and, determining the degree of severity of a disability squarely on the shoulders of the applicant and the physician and not the NRC/DNR. Of equal importance, is the fact that these matters, which are of a highly personal nature, are kept within in a totally-confidential, doctor-patient environment and not in the public domain.

Good luck to you.

Riva

TOW

04-06-2008, 08:27 AM

"The problem (point of contention) is that, the current DNR criteria (as well as the new proposed criteria) that defines which specific disability, and the degree of severity of that specific disability, determines who can/and who can not, obtain a permit to hunt game with a crossbow during the archery season, is set up so only the most severely disabled persons will be able to obtain a permit. There will still be persons with a disability, perhaps like yourself, who do not meet the specific definition of the disability and/or its degree of severity, yet still are unable to pull and/or hold a long-, and/or compound bow. That, is the flaw of the system that you and I must change!

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) states that is illegal to discriminate against any person with a disability. It does not state specific disability and/or degree of severity of the specific disability. Rather, it merely states "disability" --as in, any/all disabilities. Since your disability render you unable to pull and or hold a long-. and/or compound bow, you are entitled to petition the government so that you are able to utilized the reasonable accommodation (aka "crossbow") that will provide you with the opportunity to become a equal participant during any/all of Michigan's established hunting seasons.

Here's the solution...

By doing away with specific criteria the DNR policy should then state that, for a person with a disability to obtain a permit to take game with a crossbow, the individual merely be required to obtain and produce a letter from their own personal physician stating that in his/her professional opinion, the applicant has either a permanent and/or temporary condition that render him/her unable to pull and/or hold a long-, or compound-bow. This places the onus of defining, establishing and, determining the degree of severity of a disability squarely on the shoulders of the applicant and the physician and not the NRC/DNR. Of equal importance, is the fact that these matters, which are of a highly personal nature, are kept within in a totally-confidential, doctor-patient environment and not in the public domain.

Good luck to you.

Riva

Kentucky has it as you have stated it. Just have the doctor fill out the form (permanent or temporary-dated) and carry it with you at all times while crossbow hunting. No need to send it in to have a committee go over it with a thumbs up or down whether you can hunt or not.

swampbuck

04-06-2008, 08:52 AM

That would be easier than getting the legalisation passed. I have a couple friends that are doctors. A lot of people probably do. :dizzy:

7MM Magnum

04-06-2008, 09:00 AM

Riva,...the law regarding the crossbow as currently written should just be simplified,.. remove ALL the regulation regarding the crossbow.

There shouldn't be any difference between it's use for the purpose of hunting then there is for any of the others allowed. It's about time our state "grew up" and allowed large game statewide to be ANY WEAPON hunting. The point of only being allowed specific weapon usage is unreasonable in my personal opinion. Why should the crossbow be singled out,.. except for the pacification of certain special interest groups ??

A person who wants to hunt shouldn't have to jump through all of these hoops of medical percentages just to prove to someone that they are "injured enough" to use a specific weapon. For that matter why should anyone have to be injured or disabled to utilize one ? :16suspect

Everyone is only allowed so many tags to be filled by law,.. when they are filled your done hunting.

WHY should it matter the choice of weapon you use to complete the task. Your prey is not going to be any more dead if killed it's with the crossbow as opposed to a longbow, or a rifle. The crossbow regulation should be done away with all together. Why spent the thousands of hours, and countless sportsperson dollars arguing the issues regarding it.

It's ridiculous and infantile in my opinion,.... traditional bow hunters need to grow up. :rant:

It's time to progress to the obvious next level and make them legal for any hunter to utilize !

Riva

04-06-2008, 11:15 AM

Here's where you and I respectfully disagree. There currently is NO agenda with DNR, NRC and/or State Legislature pertaining to unrestricted use of crossbows. It’s not even on anybody's radar screen. It's not even a "twinkle in some official's eye." To put it on somebody's agenda, is a monumental task, sometimes taking years to go through its due process. Again, at this moment, unrestricted use of crossbows does not exist. You can make it exist but first, you have to decide if that's a hill you want to die on. If yes, start climbing the hill!

My point is this... when we say things like "we should make crossbows legal across the board" or, "what difference it makes what I kill a deer with" it does three things:

1. It muddies the argument of a very important issue that currently is on somebody's agenda, specifically: consideration of expanding the criteria that will allow a person with a disability to take game with a crossbow. It is a legitimate issue and, it is going through its due process.

2. It falls 100% on deaf ears with any official body because, I'm sorry, it is NOT a subject up for discussion with any official body, at least at this point in time. It's barking at the moon! Not criticism, but fact.

3. By trying to piggy-back your position (unrestricted use of crossbow) on the discussion at hand, plays exactly into the anti-crossbow society's (ACS) hand, which is EXACTLY what they want to happen, specifically: maintaining the status quo.

This doesn't mean that you can not and/or should not be an advocate for unrestricted use of crossbows. Have at it. I, for one, have determined that the matters being discussed (disability criteria, etc.) is a hill I'm prepared to die on and, I don't want the ACS to have any more of an advantage than they already have.

Again, with all due respect, we win the battle one hill at a time.

And, in case anybody forgot, my position on this matter is that, for a person with a disability to obtain a permit to take game with a crossbow, the individual merely be required to obtain and produce a letter from their own personal physician stating that in his/her professional opinion, the applicant has either a permanent and/or temporary condition that render him/her unable to pull and/or hold a long-, or compound-bow.

This places the onus of defining, establishing and, determining the degree of severity of a disability squarely on the shoulders of the applicant and the physician and not the NRC. Of equal importance, is the fact that these matters, which are of a highly personal nature, are kept within in a totally-confidential, doctor-patient environment and not in the public domain.

TOW

04-06-2008, 01:42 PM

Riva

04-06-2008, 02:32 PM

Riva,

I agree with you up to a point, but ....

The full use of crossbows in archery season will never get "on someones' agenda" if everyone just sits on their hands and just waits until it is on "someone's agenda.

They understand one thing - lots of voices. So far a vocal minority has kept crossbows out.

No doubt we can pursue both avenues at the same time...

This latest proposal can be a wake up call to all that want to have the ability to use another fine archery hunting piece of equipment. I think a few on here have awakened and asked," Why not?"
.

TOW, you and I are in violent agreement!

If there is a desire to get unrestricted use of crossbows of somebody's agenda, I agree, it all starts with somebody to stop sitting on their hands and start a grass roots initiative towards that end. It will NOT come about however, by riding piggy back on the issues surrounding expansion of the criteria for persons with a disability, etc. etc.

Any yes, they do hear many voices, so long as it defined and articulated in a manner and language that is required in due process. Anything less, it's just a lot of noise at a town hall meeting where everybody gets their 15 minutes of fame in front of the microphone. It's my experience that things that come out of those types of meetings go about 100 miles per-hour for about 12 feet!

Frankly, I would not call the Anti Crossbow Society (ACS) a vocal minority. At this time, they appear to be the only unified voice speaking to this issue. Regardless of their size, that, in my book, makes them the majority.
It's the golden rule: "Those that have all the gold make all the rules". The ACS has all the gold.

Finally, I agree that two trains can travel parallel tracks however; it takes two trains and two sets of tracks. Right now, there's only one train and one set of tracks and that train is the issue of expanding the criteria for persons with a disability to use a crossbow.

7MM Magnum

04-06-2008, 04:23 PM

Riva,...

I know for a fact that Any Weapon hunts are a do-able consideration unless there is some secret Idahoans know on regulating it that the people of Michigan don't know of. :rolleyes:

I have participated in a couple "Any Weapon" hunts in Idaho,... they seem to have no problem with it's capability what so ever.

In my opinion,... the only reason the Anti Crossbow Society has what you term "All the Gold" is because they have been allowed to hold it,... and in this long time archers opinion they have held onto it WAY too long ! :16suspect If people keep saying that it can never be done,.. it's because no one has really put forth the effort and they've been told enough times that they can't do it,.. just like your saying in your explanation and people just believe that it can't be done. Your explanation of "trains and different tracks" is pure horse-hockey in my opinion. How many times has our government changed or added a line to a bill, and when it passes the vote is forever after a law? It's the same ol' "Piggy-back" line item your setting there telling us can't be done. Our government has a LONG history of doing it.

This is all childish actions based on a few selfish, arrogant, unbending, individuals who can't see the light of day past their own hands.

There WILL be a day when the law will state that anyone can use a crossbow when hunting afield.

There isn't any reason in my mind for the state of Michigan not to be able to convert one more weapon for FULL legal use to hunt with. There's just too many good reasons for it's allowance in todays hunting society. It's time for the hardliners of traditional archery to face the facts. The energy that is now being used to alter the rule a just little,... should be concentrated to allowing anyone to utilize a crossbow regardless of physical limitations or lack of them.

What's the logic behind the dis-allowance of a crossbow to begin with?? There have been numerous postings by certain individuals on our forums that have made claims but they lack any scientific basis or facts to justify their claims. All it boils down to is they feel a crossbow will dilute the pureness of what they term "Archery" and refuse to accept the "facts" as they have been presented.

It's a pretty sorry state of affairs when the outdoor sport of hunting can be allowed to be dictated by a minority of just a few selfish hardliner people! :rant:

DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI

04-06-2008, 04:58 PM

don't forget that the NOVEMBER elections are coming up. if enough calls and e-mails go out to these elected officials something will have to give! i know i'll be in contact with mine and let them know that party lines can and will be broken if this legislation doesn't happen period! just as i have done in the past i'll cast my vote in the opposite party!

Riva

04-06-2008, 05:14 PM

Sounds like you've decided that this is a hill worth dieing on. Welcome to the club!

btw..sent you a pm

7MM Magnum

04-06-2008, 05:56 PM

Sounds like you've decided that this is a hill worth dieing on. Welcome to the club!

btw..sent you a pm

Ditto,... on both counts ;):D

Eric Jennings

04-06-2008, 08:38 PM

I am in support of the bill. I would stipulate though that there needs to be strong punishment for those that cheat the permitting system.

wildcoy73

04-06-2008, 09:16 PM

[QUOTE=TOW;2077248]Riva,

I agree with you up to a point, but ....

The full use of crossbows in archery season will never get "on someones' agenda" if everyone just sits on their hands and just waits until it is on "someone's agenda.

They understand one thing - lots of voices. So far a vocal minority has kept crossbows out.

yes this is an issue i have been addressing for sevral years and i have yet to get the support from my fellow sportsman to help me with this fight. crossbows should be legal. but to do this we need to stand together and make a trip to lansing. i have done this for the youth hunt and i am willing to do this for crossbows, but to make an issue for crossbows i need people to join the rally and make the trip. once we unite and they see it will increase the hunters in the woods we will get the insurance companies and the farm group to join us and for once these group will be united to work on a problem and we could have this in effect by next season. if we act today maybe even this year

wildcoy73

04-06-2008, 09:38 PM

please call and write the following people with your support of the crossbow
Commissioner Names and Addresses

Mary C. Brown

1624 Grand Avenue

Kalamazoo, MI 49006

269-344-3738 (Office)

Appointed: 1/6/04

Reappointed: 2/6/08

Term Expires: 12/31/07

Democrat

Keith J. Charters (Chair)

126 Spring Hill Road.

Traverse City, MI 49686

517-373-2352 (Office)

Appointed: 12/29/94

Re-Appointed: 12/20/01

Term Expires: 12/31/09

Republican

Hurley J. Coleman, Jr.
2405 Bay Road
Saginaw, MI 48602
989-752-7957 (Office)
Appointed: 1/10/07

Reappointed: 2/6/08
Term Expires: 12/31/07
Democrat

Darnell Earley

P.O. Box 70141

Lansing, MI 48908

517-373-2352

Appointed: 5/3/05

Term Expires: 12/31/08

Democrat

John Madigan

831 W. Munising Avenue

Munising, MI 49862

906-387-4468 (Office)

Appointed: 1/1/03

Term Expires: 12/31/10

Republican

J. R. Richardson

36658 McGuire Road

Ontonagon, MI 49953

906-885-7187 (Office)

Appointed: 4/6/07

Term Expires: 12/31/10

Republican

Frank C. Wheatlake

Reed City Power Line Supply,

420 N. Roth Street,

P.O. Box 147

Reed City, MI 49677

231-796-5491 (Home)

231-832-2258 (Office)

Appointed: 2/6/01

Re-Appointed: 5/3/05

Term Expires: 12/31/08

Independent

Department of Natural Resources
Executive Division
Attention: Teresa Gloden
P.O. BOX 30028
Lansing, MI 48909
517-373-2352

glodent@michigan.gov

Skinner 2

04-07-2008, 12:13 AM

Here in at least lies the problem for my dad. HE HIS NOT DISABLED. He is just older and weaker. He had not had any major heath issues so he is not considered disabled. Therefore no crossbow.

This arguement reminds me of the dog hunters vs the trappers for zone 2 bobcat. AS long as any bowhunting groups ( Long, recurve, compound, compound aided, and even the traditional stone head throwers) don't stick up together then we are lost to a minority group. Devide and conquer somebody once said!

Skinner

lang49

04-07-2008, 08:16 AM

They understand one thing - lots of voices. So far a vocal minority has kept crossbows out.

Like I said before, I don't believe that bow hunting groups are the problem you make them out to be. I believe a much larger group of sportsman are dissatisfied with forfeiting their rights to use to woods during firearm season and are fearful that adding crossbows to archery season will further encroach

swampbuck

04-07-2008, 09:25 AM

riva,

"There currently is NO agenda with DNR, NRC and/or State Legislature pertaining to unrestricted use of crossbows. It’s not even on anybody's radar screen. It's not even a "twinkle in some official's eye." To put it on somebody's agenda, is a monumental task, sometimes taking years to go through its due process. Again, at this moment, unrestricted use of crossbows does not exist. You can make it exist but first, you have to decide if that's a hill you want to die on. If yes, start climbing the hill!"

I belive that the fact that The NRC considered it last year and decided not to act "At this time" shows that it is in fact on the radar screen. Point being that they did not throw out the whole idea. THIS STATEMENT LEAVES THE POSSIBILITY OPEN FOR FUTURE ACTION. Maybe the future is now!

--Last month, the NRC considered amending current crossbow regulations to allow all
able bodied individuals to use crossbows without special permits during the archery
season. The commission decided against expanding the regulation at this time--
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/minutes_206492_7.pdf

also would you agree that according to this statement that the legislature is the one that would have to take action. I belive with this thread the hill climb may have started.

--Statute still defines part of the requirement to be "permanently disabled." The NRC has
no authority to change this requirement; this would take legislative action--

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/minutes_206492_7.pdf

Munsterlndr

04-07-2008, 09:38 AM

Like I said before, I don't believe that bow hunting groups are the problem you make them out to be. I believe a much larger group of sportsman are dissatisfied with forfeiting their rights to use to woods during firearm season and are fearful that adding crossbows to archery season will further encroach

There are numerous instances where members of MTB and MBH have addressed the NRC and voiced opposition to liberalizing crossbow season. Their comments are part of the public record and are in the NRC minutes that are available online. On both the previous and current ad hoc crossbow committee's established by the DNR to look at the crossbow issues, MBH & MTB made sure to get multiple members included on the committee, with the intention of limiting the expansion of crossbows. I can provide you with public quotes from these members commenting on their opposition to crossbows. Pope & Young sponsored a national summit of bowhunting organizations and one of the primary focus was to network and stratagize as to how to keep States from expanding crossbow seasons. They made it a public stated goal of those organizations to do everything they can to stop the expansion of crossbows.

Can you provide any articles or NRC minutes or public websites that show any evidence that Firearms hunters in Michigan are opposed to allowing an expansion of crossbows? Because I have to tell you, I'm pretty up to date on where the opposition to crossbows is coming from and I have yet to see any evidence that the vast majority of firearms hunters would oppose such a measure.

Riva

04-07-2008, 10:50 AM

The Michigan Bow Hunters Association Position Statement regarding proposed crossbow regulation changes and laser sight usage
The Michigan Bow Hunters Association does not support using age as a condition for determining crossbow eligibility. Eligibility should be determined by need on a case by case basis.
MBH supports the current standard for determining crossbow permit eligibility for physically challenged hunters. However we are opposed to lowering the level of permanent disability from 80% to 60%. Our Association acknowledges that the current evaluation process for crossbow permit applicants is expensive and frequently abused.
We therefore support removal of the physician from the evaluation process as a means of addressing both issues. Also, we would be very supportive of a more vigorous scrutiny of crossbow permit applications by the DNR Law division to further address the abuse issue. In addition, there are other issues with the crossbow permit system not mentioned in the proposal. We look forward to working with the NRC to resolve these concerns.
Michigan Bow Hunters does not oppose establishing a permit for legally blind hunters using laser sighting devices on a bow, crossbow or firearm, when the hunter is accompanied and assisted by an adult, licensed hunter.

DON'T BE FOOLED! THE STATEMENT ABOVE IS A STRAW MAN!

These folks don't oppose the 60% disability criteria because, even it were enacted verbatim, they know that so few people would still meet this criteria that the status quo remains essentially intact. It's a ruse of the highest order and we're all falling for it; The NRC, the DNR and the Michigan Legislature! Their intention is to keep the debate focused solely on the one percent, specifically, those who have the most severe, permanent disabilities, while at the same time, we ignore the other 99%. If they keep the 80% criteria intact, they've won. If it is lowered to 60%, they've still won. Actually is pretty clever thinking on their part that is, if it weren't so egregiously immoral.

Here's the solution....For a person with a disability to obtain a permit to take game with a crossbow, the individual merely be required to obtain and produce a letter from their own personal physician (not physical therapist) stating that in his/her professional opinion, the applicant has either a permanent and/or temporary condition that render him/her unable to pull and/or hold a long-, or compound-bow.

This places the onus of defining, establishing and, determining the degree of severity of a disability squarely on the shoulders of the applicant and the physician and not the NRC, DNR and/or Michigan Legislature. Of equal importance, is the fact that these matters, which are of a highly personal nature, are kept within in a totally-confidential, doctor-patient environment and not in the public domain.

Remember, the American with Disabilities Act (ADA) states that it is illegal to discriminate against people with disabilities. Please note: it does NOT say 80% permanent disability, nor does it say 60% permanent disability but rather, it states ANY and ALL disabilities irrespective of kind and/or severity! So, if you personal physician determines that you have a disability, either permanent or temporary, that render you unable to pull and/or hold a long-, or compound-bow, that is a "disability". And, since you have a disability, Michigan has already determined that crossbow is a "reasonable accommodation" for the disabled person to have an opportunity to become an "equal participant" in that same activity.

To reiterate..don't be fooled!

7MM Magnum

04-07-2008, 11:22 AM

Joe Archer

04-07-2008, 02:30 PM

Just WHO the hell do they think they are anyhow,... GOD ??? :16suspect

Just what gives THEM the right to propose ANY regulation criteria?? They certainly arn't speaking for me,... that's for damn sure!! :mad::mad::mad:

This has to do with ALL hunters not just the MBH organization !!!! :rant:

For what it is worth, it is nothing more than a position statement. You could write a letter sending them a 7mm Magnum position statement. The value this statement has is in defining the opinions of MBH members. For example, if this position does not reflect your opinion you should not become a member or you should cancel your membership if already a member and you disagree. The MBH position statement has a membership number attached to it that represents a number of hunting citizens who basically agree with this statement. So, basically if they have 100,000 members, this statment is supposed to be the voice of that 100,000 Michigan hunters; no more... no less.
<----<<<

marty

04-07-2008, 02:40 PM

Both MBH and MTB are death on crossbows. I don't know what they got over the nrc and the dnr. Maybe some old sex tapes or taped confessions:lol:

7MM Magnum

04-07-2008, 03:12 PM

For what it is worth, it is nothing more than a position statement. You could write a letter sending them a 7mm Magnum position statement. The value this statement has is in defining the opinions of MBH members. For example, if this position does not reflect your opinion you should not become a member or you should cancel your membership if already a member and you disagree. The MBH position statement has a membership number attached to it that represents a number of hunting citizens who basically agree with this statement. So, basically if they have 100,000 members, this statment is supposed to be the voice of that 100,000 Michigan hunters; no more... no less.
<----<<<

YEARS ago,... I was a member. :rolleyes:

But do to the fact as I stated previously,... the closed mindedness, and the holier than all the other bow hunters attitude. I didn't view things with the same eyes as their covenant set forth,.... so I left ! :16suspect

In MY opinion THEY are the ones having a brain-fart, they have gone beyond being stuck in a rut and have become full blown stagnant, not the rest of us. :16suspect It's time that they become part of the present and future of bow hunting.

I take it from your little spiel above that your siding with them? :confused:

(Please correct me if I'm incorect.) :help:

"All it boils down to is they feel a crossbow will dilute the pureness of what they term "Archery",... and refuse to accept the reality of the world".

Whit1

04-07-2008, 03:59 PM

The reason those bowhunting groups, as with any group, has power is because they attend NRC meetings on a regular basis and are heard at each and every meeting on a variety of topics that "affect" their membership as well as themselves as individuals.

As for the mention above of firearms hunters not wanting any changes in crossbow regs that's the first I've ever heard mention of it anywhere and I doubt very much if the DNR, NRC, and legislators have heard much, if any, negative comments about crossbows from that "group".

As for why MBH and MTB and other such groups are so opposed to any changes in crossbow regulations is not so much because they are selfish, although that may play a part in some individuals, but rather due to the fact that they have set themselves up as "protectors" of "their" sport (the "their" applies to some members rather than the entire group). What they are protecting traditional and compound bow hunting from can only be surmised, but I'd bet the words (and their variations) easy and lazy would come into play.

By the way you are to pay no attention to the fact that crossbows have been around much, much longer than any compound bow. I'm not certain about recurves, but the history of crossbow use covers several hundred years.

Joe Archer

04-07-2008, 04:08 PM

I take it from your little spiel above that your siding with them? :confused:
(Please correct me if I'm incorect.) :help:

"All it boils down to is they feel a crossbow will dilute the pureness of what they term "Archery",... and refuse to accept the reality of the world".
I am not a MBH member and do not agree with their position statement. I am for the proposal as originally stated in this thread to allow certain age groups the use of crossbows, and to make it easier for handicapped individuals to gain a permit.
If enough MBH members disagreed with the position statement and voiced their objections threatening to cancel membership, MBH would redefine their position. The position statement should realistically reflect the opinions of group members and not just those of the governing body.
<----<<<

7MM Magnum

04-07-2008, 04:58 PM

I am for the proposal as originally stated in this thread to allow certain age groups the use of crossbows, and to make it easier for handicapped individuals to gain a permit.
<----<<<

Personally I find this statement somewhat guarded,... WHY should any individual who is "Handicapped" have to prove their disability within a specified percentage value ?? If your classified "Handicapped" then that's what you are. :rolleyes: The basis for a determination of HOW handicapped you are,... is pretty much discriminatory on a whole. :mad:

As for the age groups,.. again discriminatory ! :rolleyes: So the powers that be can tell a 12 year old, a woman or even a 57 year old man who has a muscle disorder,.. "I'm sorry you can't pull and hold that 40# bow. I Guess you can hunt whitetail deer, maybe next year. :(

That's a a big pile of du-du ! People with muscle failures, or inadequate muscle strength for reasons other than being "Handicapped" don't get to hunt according to your view point. :16suspect

Pretty lame,... so just HOW do you propose we increase the falling numbers of hunters hitting the field by restricting viable persons from hunting??

lang49

04-07-2008, 05:15 PM

There are numerous instances where members of MTB and MBH have addressed the NRC and voiced opposition to liberalizing crossbow season. Their comments are part of the public record and are in the NRC minutes that are available online.

After re-reading my own words, what I should have said was that the bow hunting groups are not the only treat to liberalized crossbow seasons.

Can you provide any articles or NRC minutes or public websites that show any evidence that Firearms hunters in Michigan are opposed to allowing an expansion of crossbows?

Munster and Whit- I didn't say that there was a large opposition by firearms hunters. What I said was that there was that there was a "group of sportsman are dissatisfied with forfeiting their rights to use to woods during firearm season." To answer your question, I am not aware of a NRC minutes that support this. However, This thread shows how some people view firearm season:
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=209667

Though nobody says it, some of these people seem to suggest that they would not like to see the caos of public land firearm season expanded (not that crossbow would necessarily cause this).

Riva

04-07-2008, 05:20 PM

The only discussion surrounding using age as a criteria for unrestricted use of a crossbow is in HB 5741. It is NOT part of the NRC's subcommittee's agenda in any manner. BTW...HB 5741 is parked in the State house and will not be pursued until the NRC has made its recommendations--if ever. IMHO, age, as a criteria for crossbow expansion is, and should be, a stand alone issue.

TOW

04-07-2008, 07:39 PM

As for why MBH and MTB and other such groups are so opposed to any changes in crossbow regulations is not so much because they are selfish, although that may play a part in some individuals, but rather due to the fact that they have set themselves up as "protectors" of "their" sport (the "their" applies to some members rather than the entire group). What they are protecting traditional and compound bow hunting from can only be surmised, but I'd bet the words (and their variations) easy and lazy would come into play.

No. What they are "protecting" is their time of year to hunt. It has nothing to do with what a person has in his/her hands. They don't want anyone to hunt "their deer", in "their deer woods" during "their season."

Forget defining crossbows as archery equipment (even though they are), have a crossbow season that runs concurrent with the archery season. They wont like that either. They think that time period belongs soley to them, but it doesn't. It belongs to the DNR to assign as they see fit.

By the way you are to pay no attention to the fact that crossbows have been around much, much longer than any compound bow. I'm not certain about recurves, but the history of crossbow use covers several hundred years.

Actually crossbows predate Christ by 400 years.

Compounds - 1968...

lang49

04-07-2008, 08:57 PM

No. What they are "protecting" is their time of year to hunt. It has nothing to do with what a person has in his/her hands. They don't want anyone to hunt "their deer", in "their deer woods" during "their season."

I don't want to get too far off subject but-

Why is it legal to hunt grouse on Nov 14th, but not on the 15th- small game hunter might jump "your deer?"

Why is it that in the SLP, a trapper may carry a .22 rifle to dispatch canines on Nov 14th, but not on the 15th- afraid he might shoot "your deer, in your woods, during your seaon?"

Why is it that houndsman can't run dogs during firearm season?? Bow hunters don't seem to have any difficulty dealing with it. Why are firearms hunters so special?

I suggest that bow hunters are protecting the same thing that rifle hunters are protecting (whatever that may be).

The point being, I think a large less vocal majority is unhappy with the way rifle season takes center stage and would prefer to keep caos confined to Nov 15th- 30th (albiet, crossbow's may not have that affect on archery season).

Munsterlndr

04-07-2008, 09:54 PM

Lang49
The prohibitions regarding other seasons running concurrently with firearms season primarily have to do with safety issues, not that firearms hunters might be "encroached upon" by others tromping through the woods during the two week firearms season. If you look at the hunting incident (accident) reports, crossbows and longbows have virtually the same degree of potential for being involved in hunting accidents (almost none), so it is not a logical conclusion to think that an expansion of the crossbow season would pose the same kind of safety issues that might result in other seasons being curtailed.

Nice try but face it Bow hunters just don't want to share their season or potentially have their bag limits reduced. To quote a MTB member (and former poster here) when queried on his opposition to crossbows during archery season "We have a pretty good thing going here, why risk it by letting crossbows in."

lang49

04-07-2008, 10:13 PM

Lang49
The prohibitions regarding other seasons running concurrently with firearms season primarily have to do with safety issues, not that firearms hunters might be "encroached upon" by others tromping through the woods during the two week firearms season.

I disagree, that argument doesn't hold any water- Small game hunters and houndsman alike still need to wear hunters orange afield just like any deer hunter. Therefore, they are no less likely to be injured or killed than any other deer hunter. In fact, because they are typically in motion rather than sitting still, I'd suggest that they are more visible and less likely to be injured.

As for trapping in the SLP, it is still legal during firearm season so the DNR must not truly feel it's a safety issue.

No, I maintain that all of these activities are restricted during firearm season due to popular opinion- The same reason crossbows are restricted during archery season. It may not be fair, but it is what it is...

Face it, Bow hunters are no more greedy than the average firearms hunter...

Munsterlndr

04-07-2008, 10:56 PM

I disagree, that argument doesn't hold any water- Small game hunters and houndsman alike still need to wear hunters orange afield just like any deer hunter. Therefore, they are no less likely to be injured or killed than any other deer hunter. In fact, because they are typically in motion rather than sitting still, I'd suggest that they are more visible and less likely to be injured.

As for trapping in the SLP, it is still legal during firearm season so the DNR must not truly feel it's a safety issue.

No, I maintain that all of these activities are restricted during firearm season due to popular opinion- The same reason crossbows are restricted during archery season. It may not be fair, but it is what it is...

Face it, Bow hunters are no more greedy than the average firearms hunter...

You can maintain it all you want but you would be wrong.

FYI, The only small game season that is restricted during the firearms deer season is grouse hunting. Again, it's a safety issue. The DNR does not want a bunch of hunters with bird dogs running through the underbrush while 600,000+ firearms deer hunters are in the field. Squirrel & rabbit hunters and houndsman hunting raccoons are all legal during the firearms deer season. Waterfowl season also runs during part of the firearms deer season, as well, so I don't see where you are getting the idea that firearms deer hunters have lobbied to restrict anyone else from hunting during their season.

Bow hunters, on the other hand, have actively lobbied to stop crossbows from being used during the archery season. So draw your own conclusions about who is trying to monopolize certain dates on the calender.

Overdraw

04-08-2008, 12:02 AM

Munsterlndr

04-08-2008, 08:12 AM

I know I'm 10 pages deep in this debate, but I need to get this out. Crossbows are simple to use, as are guns. I have to believe that the main reason that our gun season is so short, is due to the fact that 75% of the deer taken are killed during gun season. They're killed in gun season for several reasons; the range of a gun is much greater than a bow and no practice is needed, so you have more hunters. Gun season would never be scheduled pre-rut or during the rut, due to the number of deer taken during that season, and the number of hunters. If you can pick it up and shoot it, its a gun. If it takes practice, patience, and a little luck; it bow season. Allowing crossbows during the long bow season, would allow everyone with $300 the opportunity of a 3 month season. That's not how the season dates were designed. In my opinion, you can not introduce a new weapon that anyone can pick up and shoot, into an existing season. The dates of the seasons would all have to be reevaluated to accomodate the amount of hunters in the woods. --Overdraw

With all due respect you are equating crossbows with firearms and the two are not even close to being equivalent. In Ohio, where crossbows have been legal for 20 years, there is virtually no difference in the harvest rate between long bow users and crossbow uses. If crossbows were as effective as firearms there would be a a difference but that is just not the case. Both long bows and crossbows are short range weapons with an effective hunting range of 30-40 yards. With modern compounds, 99% let off technology and all of the other bells and whistles, someone who has never shot a bow can walk into a pro-shop and within half an hour they are going to be getting decent groups on paper. The same is true with a crossbow.

The logical fallacy that many bow hunters assume is that being able to hit a paper target under practice conditions automatically translates into bagging a deer under hunting conditions. That is not even true with a firearm let alone a crossbow, where you are under the same detection, motion, scent and noise restraints as when vertical bow hunting. Do you bag a deer every time you walk into the woods with a firearm? The fact that two thirds of the firearm hunters that hunt all season come up empty kind of disproves your contention that if you can just pick up a weapon and shoot it that it will result in bagging a deer.

Your contention that crossbows are equivalent to guns is just not supported by a shred of evidence. Give us something other than surmise or emotion to support your contention please.

Just one more thing, you are also mistaken in your conclusion that "no practice is needed" when using a firearm. The vast majority of firearms hunters would substantially increase their success rate if they put in a little time and effort at the range instead of uncasing their gun on the evening of Nov. 14th when they get to deer camp and shooting a few rounds at a pine tree to see if some bark fly's. Responsible hunters, regardless of what weapon they choose, put in the time to become proficient with their weapon before shooting at live game.

swampbuck

04-08-2008, 08:15 AM

crossbows are NOT A LONG RANGE WEAPON , crossbow hunters DO NOT RESULT IN INCREASED HARVEST NUMBERS. And as far as a 3 month season archery season is the only 3 month season. I dont hear any firearms hunters complaining that bows are legal DURING FIREARM DEER SEASON.

DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI

04-08-2008, 08:49 AM

If you can pick it up and shoot it, its a gun. If it takes practice, patience, and a little luck; it bow season. Allowing crossbows during the long bow season, would allow everyone with $300 the opportunity of a 3 month season. That's not how the season dates were designed. In my opinion, you can not introduce a new weapon that anyone can pick up and shoot, into an existing season. The dates of the seasons would all have to be reevaluated to accomodate the amount of hunters in the woods. --Overdraw

IF YOU CAN PICK IT UP AND SHOOT IT ,ITS A GUN:dizzy:i used to pick up my compound and shoot it so thats a GUN:dizzy: PURE NONSENSE
i also like that little phrase DURING LONG BOW SEASON:dizzy:(more MTB PROPAGANDA)
YOU BETTER DO A LITTLE MORE CHECKING on those crossbow prices most people who buy crossbows have well in excess of $$$5-700 and all the way up to 2500$$ invested in their equipment just like everyone else.
next little catchy phrase:introduce a NEW WEAPON did you go to school at all or watch any t.v the cross bow is ONLY A COUPLE OF THOUSAND YEARS OLD
then we have all that HOGWASH about reevaluating to accomodate all the hunters in the woods.(OR IS THAT YOUR WOODS) you truly are in the DARK ON THIS ISSUE:dizzy: we have lost thousands of SPORTSMEN/WOMEN from the woods.
as far as you being 10 pages into this article you sure didn't RETAIN ANY OF THE FACTS OR SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE THAT was given as a basis for the need for allowing crossbows on a equal basis in the BOW SEASON (NOT LONG BOW SEASON)
AFTER HAVING SAID ALL THIS i do respect your RIGHTS to speak your opinion as is with everyone else in AMERICA, but next time you come to the TABLE PLEASE BRING FACTS NOT BASELESS AND FOUNDLESS ACCUSATIONS if you wish to prove your CASE why crossbows SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED. AS IT STANDS YOUR CASE HAS "NO MERIT":evilsmile

TOW

04-08-2008, 08:58 AM

The time of mastery of any hunting tool has absolutely nothing to do with hunting with that hunting tool. As explained by others here, the crossbow and the modern compound bow have very similar harvest percentages.

And well they should have as they are both short range archery hunting tools.

Data from crossbows states prove that crossbows sharing the archery season has NO detrimental effect on the deer herd, the length of seasons OR even the other hunters hunting at that time.

BTW - I've hunted with recurves, compounds and now crossbows. I see no difference in my set ups for hunting deer. Niether one of these three archery hunting tools will get you within 20 to 30 yards of a deer.

Kurt4253

04-08-2008, 09:14 AM

lang49

04-08-2008, 09:52 AM

AFTER HAVING SAID ALL THIS i do respect your RIGHTS to speak your opinion as is with everyone else in AMERICA, but next time you come to the TABLE PLEASE BRING FACTS NOT BASELESS AND FOUNDLESS ACCUSATIONS if you wish to prove your CASE why crossbows SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED. AS IT STANDS YOUR CASE HAS "NO MERIT":evilsmile

What do you call your Fred bear remarks in the other thread?? :dizzy: All emotion and no science there either...

Ooh oh...Fred Bear would be ashamed...where's the science in that?

Joe Archer

04-08-2008, 10:20 AM

Your contention that crossbows are equivalent to guns is just not supported by a shred of evidence. Give us something other than surmise or emotion to support your contention please.
.
Someone help me out here please. There used to be a clause in the hunting guide for the archery season that read something like... "When hunting with a bow and arrow it is unlawful to use any device to hold the bow at full draw..." Does this statement still exist?
Personally I find this statement somewhat guarded,... WHY should any individual who is "Handicapped" have to prove their disability within a specified percentage value ?? If your classified "Handicapped" then that's what you are. The basis for a determination of HOW handicapped you are,... is pretty much discriminatory on a whole.
As for the age groups,.. again discriminatory ! So the powers that be can tell a 12 year old, a woman or even a 57 year old man who has a muscle disorder,.. "I'm sorry you can't pull and hold that 40# bow. I Guess you can hunt whitetail deer, maybe next year.
That's a a big pile of du-du ! People with muscle failures, or inadequate muscle strength for reasons other than being "Handicapped" don't get to hunt according to your view point.
Pretty lame,... so just HOW do you propose we increase the falling numbers of hunters hitting the field by restricting viable persons from hunting?? This thread asked for our opinions and mine was given. I responded in a few previous posts defending my opinion already.
The 57 year old man with a muscle disorder should be able to use a crossbow. The 12 year old will have to wait until they can pull a bow or use a crossbow during the youth season. (I believe the firearms age was lowered to 12 wasn't it?). I have a 10 year old nephew who I gave a bow to last year. Legally, he was old enough to hunt. He wasn't strong enough, or a good enough archer to hunt. The bottom line, he has to wait.
"We have a pretty good thing going here, why risk it by letting crossbows in."
I think that really is a very good question. MBH lobbied hard for years to have the extended season that we have. If crossbows are seriously enough of a threat to the current season definitions, I think that in itself is enough proof to show that they should not be lumped in with the current archery regulations. Part of what makes archery season so enjoyable is the fact that it is semi-restricted. You have to be able to shoot a bow to participate. In part, it is why we enjoy the length of season that we do and in part why we get to hunt less pressured animals. Add another 200,000 men, women, and children into the mix and the hunting less pressured animals theory goes out the window, and possibly so does the season length.
The simple fact is that we do have a defined archery season, we do have a defined firearms season, and we do have a defined muzzle loading season. Archery associations have fought hard to gain what they have. If crossbows are a threat to what they have achieved, I think it only logical that they would oppose that threat. I don't believe archery hunters really care about bag limits, or someone shooting their deer... I think it is more an effort to protect the sanctity of a season that they have struggled to obtain.
<----<<<

lang49

04-08-2008, 10:48 AM

Well said Joe!

In comparing archery and firearm season, It's not the weapon used by the hunter that impacts the deer the most- the shear number of people afield makes the difference.

Kurt4253

04-08-2008, 11:01 AM

Hello all

I am new here & was just made aware of this discussion concerning the question of inclusion &/or restriction/exclusion of the crossbow in the archery season in the state of Michigan.

I am a member of the ACF (American Crossbow Federation) The ACF is a national organization that advocates for the crossbow to be given its RIGHTFUL place in the hunting line up, - which we believe to be FULL INCLUSION in the archery hunting season & to see this happen in ALL 50 states in the near future.

From what I can see, the crossbow issue/controversy here in Michigan is no different then in the MANY other states where it is being considered for inclusion in the archery hunting season.

From what I can see, - just as in every other state where this is a "hot button" issue, - there is a WIDE range of "opinions" on the matter, - but those opinions fall into one of three "positions." --- the three "positions" are as fallows. (1) absolute exclusion (voiced by "a few" but VERY vocal die hard vertical archers) --- (2) inclusion/exclusion with the exception of "certain" restrictions (the most common position, - but also the most varied of opinions as to what the exceptions/restrictions should be) --- (3) Full inclusion, - no restrictions, - buy a bow hunting licence, - go hunting with your crossbow. (also a small, & dare I say, vocal group)

Right out the gate, - I will state that my position is that of #3 (full inclusion) --- My position is based on the FACTS & TRUTH about the crossbow &/or HUNTING with it. --- It is my position, - that anything, - other then full inclusion, - is a position of discrimination for self serving ideals.

I know this sounds like a very heavy accusation, but I have enough confidence in my position, & my ability to present it, using facts & truth, - that in the end, - full inclusion, is in fact the only right thing to do.

Before I go any further, I need to make one thing clear. --- I have been a bow hunter for 37 years now. For 30 of those years I hunted ONLY with a recurve bow. I have friends that hunt with compound bows, - so have certainly shoot my fair share of compound bows, - but I NEVER hunted with anything other then a recurve. As a result of an injury with a table saw (to my draw hand) 7 years ago, I had no choice but to take up hunting with crossbow in order to stay in the game, - which is also why (in part) I NOW take the position on crossbow that I do.

Kurt

Munsterlndr

04-08-2008, 11:17 AM

Someone help me out here please. There used to be a clause in the hunting guide for the archery season that read something like... "When hunting with a bow and arrow it is unlawful to use any device to hold the bow at full draw..." Does this statement still exist?
Yes that rule still exists and your point is? Are you offering that as proof that crossbows or bows with draw locs are somehow the equivalent of guns?

I think that really is a very good question. MBH lobbied hard for years to have the extended season that we have. If crossbows are seriously enough of a threat to the current season definitions, I think that in itself is enough proof to show that they should not be lumped in with the current archery regulations. Part of what makes archery season so enjoyable is the fact that it is semi-restricted. You have to be able to shoot a bow to participate. In part, it is why we enjoy the length of season that we do and in part why we get to hunt less pressured animals. Add another 200,000 men, women, and children into the mix and the hunting less pressured animals theory goes out the window, and possibly so does the season length.
The simple fact is that we do have a defined archery season, we do have a defined firearms season, and we do have a defined muzzle loading season. Archery associations have fought hard to gain what they have. If crossbows are a threat to what they have achieved, I think it only logical that they would oppose that threat. I don't believe archery hunters really care about bag limits, or someone shooting their deer... I think it is more an effort to protect the sanctity of a season that they have struggled to obtain.
<----<<< And all we are asking for is some proof to support the contention that crossbows would have a significant impact on archery season.

Instead of just guessing or imagining what might happen, lets look at facts.

We have evidence from 14 states that have liberalized the use of crossbows, none of which have resulted in the curtailment of the existing archery seasons or a reduction in bag limits. In every case, the impact that crossbows had on archery season was minimal to non-existent.

As recently as 10 years ago, Michigan had 70,000 more bow hunters than we had last year and that declining trend is expected to continue.

80-85% of the deer are harvested on private lands in Michigan.

55% of the harvest occurs in the SLP where the herd is grossly over-populated.

Using your hypothetical number of 200,000 additional hunters, (which by the way is so detached from reality as to be laughable but just or the sake of discussion lets use that figure) lets look at what the potential impact might be. Using current success rates, those additional hunters would harvest approx. 64,000 additional deer, 56% of which would be antlered bucks. So hypothetically an additional 35,000 bucks would be harvested. In reality this number is probably pretty high because it's assuming that none of those 200,000 new hunters would have harvested some of those bucks during firearms or muzzleloading season. Because we are limited to 2 bucks under the combo, the reality is that the actual number of additional bucks harvested by the expansion of crossbows would be much smaller, because some of them would have been harvested anyway by some of those 200,000 new crossbow hunters during firearms or muzzleloader seasons. Just for comparison purposes, according to the DNR last year the restricted combo tag accounted for approx. 37,000 additional bucks being harvested, just about the high estimate for the number of bucks that potentially could be harvested by a crossbow expansion. The DNR biologists deemed that number "insignificant" to the welfare of the herd. Interesting that if you read the bowhunting forums, they tend t be some of the strongest supporters of keeping the combo tag in place. Hard for them to logically argue that the number of bucks killed with the restricted combo tag is insignificant but then claim that an equal number of bucks killed by an expansion of crossbows would somehow devastate the herd and end hunting as we know it.

Based on what has occurred in other states, a more likely scenario is that 20,000 - 30,000 hunters might use a crossbow the first year and many of them would be hanging up their vertical bow to do so. I would be very, very surprised if crossbows brought 50,000 new hunters to the sport in the first 5 years. Again, this is based on what we have seen in other states, not just numbers pulled out of thin air. The impact from 50,000 new hunters would be minimal.

As mentioned, In Michigan in the last decade we have already lost 70,000 bow hunters and 142,000 firearms hunters. Worries about adding tens of thousands of new crossbow hunters to the ranks are simply a strawman designed to frighten the public land hunter into thinking that he will be over-run and that the deer herd will be wiped out. If you just look into our past you will see that we have already experienced hunter numbers at those levels and the hunting during the late 90's was just fine. Decisions need to be based on fact not on conjecture and emotion.

Munsterlndr

04-08-2008, 11:27 AM

Well said Joe!

In comparing archery and firearm season, It's not the weapon used by the hunter that impacts the deer the most- the shear number of people afield makes the difference.

In 1998 Michigan had 70,000 more bow hunters than it did in 2006, were the woods over-run with bowhunters in 1998? Was the bow hunting season ruined? Did the sheer number of bow hunters in the woods make any measurable difference? The fact of the matter is that the majority of deer hunting occurs on private land in Michigan so increases in hunter populations have very little tangible impact on other hunters.

wildcoy73

04-08-2008, 11:31 AM

"I think that really is a very good question. MBH lobbied hard for years to have the extended season that we have. If crossbows are seriously enough of a threat to the current season definitions, I think that in itself is enough proof to show that they should not be lumped in with the current archery regulations. Part of what makes archery season so enjoyable is the fact that it is semi-restricted. You have to be able to shoot a bow to participate. In part, it is why we enjoy the length of season that we do and in part why we get to hunt less pressured animals. Add another 200,000 men, women, and children into the mix and the hunting less pressured animals theory goes out the window, and possibly so does the season length.
The simple fact is that we do have a defined archery season, we do have a defined firearms season, and we do have a defined muzzle loading season. Archery associations have fought hard to gain what they have. If crossbows are a threat to what they have achieved, I think it only logical that they would oppose that threat. I don't believe archery hunters really care about bag limits, or someone shooting their deer... I think it is more an effort to protect the sanctity of a season that they have struggled to obtain."
<----<<<

Joe where have you been i know you have been hunting the north east sideof this state so where does archery season have this extended season?
early gun runs during bow season. late doe season runs during bow the bow hunter does not have the hunt we had years ago
youth hunt
early doe season
late doe season
extended black powder season
this has all taken a toll
if the archery hunters of this state would have done their part in reducing deer numbers all theese other season would not have been added, but we did not do our share so they allowed the guns to join us to do the job. so why are we saying no to a crossbow? i would gladly see crossbow hunters in the woods rather than a rifle. a crossbow is still a short range weapon

Riva

04-08-2008, 12:05 PM

Michigan has defined seasons. However, the last time I looked, they didn't belong to anybody. Rather, they belong to everybody. So, what that means is, if you want to be equal participant in that season...go right ahead! The trouble is not all people can be an equal participant because they have a physical disability.

The law states that we must make a reasonable accommodation for people with disabilities so that they have an opportunity to participate equally in that season. As such, it has been determined that a crossbow is indeed, a reasonable accommodation. A bazooka is not a reasonable accommodation. A paper clip flung from a rubber band is not a reasonable accommodation (although I was deadly with this combo in junior high).

The point of contention is not the crossbow itself, but rather how broad or narrow the criteria should be to allow a person to use a crossbow. THAT IS THE ONLY ISSUE ON THE TABLE.
There are those who want to keep the criteria very narrow, to whom I say: You're full of crap! There are those that want to expand the criteria somewhat, to whom I say: ;You're full of crap! And then, there are those who want piggy back on this expansion discussion by advocating unrestricted use of crossbows during all seasons, to whom I say, You're full of crap!
Why are they all full of crap? It's because they're all missing the point.

The point is this...There is a humongous piece of legislation on the books called the American with Disabilities ACT (ADA). It's a FEDERAL law which means everybody in all 50 states has to comply with it. When you don't comply with it, bad things can happen like they turn off your money and/or make you shut down shop until you comply.

The ADA states that it is illegal to discriminate against a person with a disability. So, to avoid discrimination, we must make reasonable accommodations for people with disabilities so that they can have the opportunity to be an equal participant in the very same activity, in this case, the archery season. It does not state, certain disabilities. Nor does it state degree of severity of a defined disability. It merely states: DISABILITY!

So, to those that advocate a very narrow criteria, your agenda will result in some people with disabilities being excluded, yet still unable to pull and/or hold a long-, or compound-bow. Sorry folks, that's discrimination!

And to those that advocate slightly expanded criteria, your agenda too will result in some people with disabilities being excluded, yet still unable to pull and/or hold a long-, or compound-bow. Ditto to the discrimination issue!

And to those that want to piggy-back on the "criteria issue" in order to advance the cause surrounding unrestricted use of crossbows during the archery season, my response is for you to please conduct that discourse on its own field of battle, based on its own merit. It's not that you're not entitled to your opinion, pro or con, unrestricted crossbow use is its own agenda.

So...the $64,000 question...How do we avoid being in violation of the ADA?
The answer is very simple...YOU HAVE NO CRITERIA other than your personal physician attesting to the fact that you have a permanent or temporary disability of sufficient degree of severity, that in the physician’s profession opinion, render you unable to pull and/or hold a long-, or compound-bow!

That's it: no criteria, no violation. Plus, all personal medical information is kept private and not in some file cabinet in Lansing.

Joe Archer

04-08-2008, 12:09 PM

Yes that rule still exists and your point is? Are you offering that as proof that crossbows or bows with draw locs are somehow the equivalent of guns?
It is proof that there exists a legal distinction between crossbow use and vertical bow use. It is even more relevant here because the distinction was not limited to crossbows, but applied to vertical bows making sure you had to draw your compound in the presence of the game animal.
And all we are asking for is some proof to support the contention that crossbows would have a significant impact on archery season.
Instead of just guessing or imagining what might happen, lets look at facts.
*deleted irrelevant stats from other states that are not Michigan*

All I am asking is that we collect the information needed to judge what might happen in Michigan, and prove that it would not have a significant impact on archery season. I didn't pluck my estimate out of the air either. Yes, I rounded it up, but it was calculated from a poll on these threads where better than 50% of gun-only hunters said they would hunt with a crossbow. You tell me what number you come up with from that estimation.

As recently as 10 years ago, Michigan had 70,000 more bow hunters than we had last year and that declining trend is expected to continue.
Don't the other states (even those with crossbows) have declining hunter numbers as well? Declining hunting participation is a national phenomenon, not just something seen in Michigan.
*Delete irrelevant harvest statistics and estimations, But would advise you to be careful on stating (paraphrased) "minimal impact on harvest rates and numbers". Many crossbow supporters maintain that crossbows would have a significant impact on management of overpopulated areas.. I know, they are just blowin smoke.. but still...*

As mentioned, In Michigan in the last decade we have already lost 70,000 bow hunters and 142,000 firearms hunters.... Decisions need to be based on fact not on conjecture and emotion.
I agree 100%. Let’s collect the facts needed from Michigan hunters and make decisions based on the evidence from our state and our population of hunters. Show me scientific data from our state that does not support 50% of current firearms-only hunters taking up the crossbow. If this data, once collected shows minimal impact as you suggest... please, offer cross bows up to any 10 year old that can squeeze the trigger!
<----<<<

lang49

04-08-2008, 12:14 PM

Based on what has occurred in other states, a more likely scenario is that 20,000 - 30,000 hunters might use a crossbow the first year and many of them would be hanging up their vertical bow to do so. I would be very, very surprised if crossbows brought 50,000 new hunters to the sport in the first 5 years. Again, this is based on what we have seen in other states, not just numbers pulled out of thin air. The impact from 50,000 new hunters would be minimal.

So you're telling me we should legalize crossbows to pacify 30,000 people who aren't going to have any significant impact on the resource?

What's the point of legalizing crossbows if their impact on the resource is negligable? From your argument (80% of the deer taken on private land) it sounds a DNR private land access program would benefit the deer more than crossbows.

I'm done with this thread!

Munsterlndr

04-08-2008, 12:25 PM

So you're telling me we should legalize crossbows to pacify 30,000 people who aren't going to have any significant impact on the resource?

What's the point of legalizing crossbows if their impact on the resource is negligable? From your argument (80% of the deer taken on private land) it sounds a DNR private land access program would benefit the deer more than crossbows.

I'm done with this thread!

Yeah, I think that it would be legitimate to accommodate 30,000 Michigan hunters when that accommodation would not adversely impact the resource and in fact would increase revenue fro the DNR. Just as it was legitimate in 1938 to accommodate the 200 bowhunters who lobbied to establish a stand alone archery season. Do you see a substantive difference between the two other than that there is a much higher percentage of hunters who would like to use a crossbow today than there were that wanted to use a bow in 1938?

The point of legalizing crossbows? Maybe that it would allow more of Michigan's citizens to enjoy the sport of hunting and make use of our publicly held resources? Ya think?

A better question is what is the point of not allowing the expansion of crossbows? That's the question that no-one has provided a legitimate answer to.

Joe Archer

04-08-2008, 12:50 PM

The point of legalizing crossbows? Maybe that it would allow more of Michigan's citizens to enjoy the sport of hunting and make use of our publicly held resources? Ya think?
.
I think not! Anyone who wants to hunt probably does so already. With the exception of age limitations, anyone who wanted to hunt deer last year was able. If they could not shoot a bow, they most likely were limited to firearms, but that's why they call it archery season.
<----<<<

Munsterlndr

04-08-2008, 01:01 PM

I think not! Anyone who wants to hunt probably does so already. With the exception of age limitations, anyone who wanted to hunt deer last year was able.

Yes anyone could hunt deer during a short two week season. Both due to age limitations and the overly restrictive and discriminatory nature of the current crossbow regs, many hunters are being deprived of the opportunity to hunt deer during archery season, hence the focus of this thread. The question is what is the benefit of those restrictions? So far, you and others have failed to provide any legitimate answer to that question other than to state that it would continue to allow vertical bow hunters to monopolize some dates on the calender and possibly prevent someone else from shooting "their" deer. ;)

Whit1

04-08-2008, 02:15 PM

You may have noticed that I've edited a few posts. For the most part, with one or two exceptions, the editing was done with posts that quoted what others had said. The way the quote came out made it a bit difficult to read that the author of the post was first quoting another member. What I did was embolden the quoted section and insert quotation marks.

Joe Archer

04-08-2008, 02:46 PM

"I think that really is a very good question. MBH lobbied hard for years to have the extended season that we have. If crossbows are seriously enough of a threat to the current season definitions, I think that in itself is enough proof to show that they should not be lumped in with the current archery regulations. Part of what makes archery season so enjoyable is the fact that it is semi-restricted. You have to be able to shoot a bow to participate. In part, it is why we enjoy the length of season that we do and in part why we get to hunt less pressured animals. Add another 200,000 men, women, and children into the mix and the hunting less pressured animals theory goes out the window, and possibly so does the season length.
The simple fact is that we do have a defined archery season, we do have a defined firearms season, and we do have a defined muzzle loading season. Archery associations have fought hard to gain what they have. If crossbows are a threat to what they have achieved, I think it only logical that they would oppose that threat. I don't believe archery hunters really care about bag limits, or someone shooting their deer... I think it is more an effort to protect the sanctity of a season that they have struggled to obtain."
<----<<<

Joe where have you been i know you have been hunting the north east sideof this state so where does archery season have this extended season?
....if the archery hunters of this state would have done their part in reducing deer numbers all theese other season would not have been added, but we did not ...
Sorry, I missed that question earlier. I have been in NE Michigan and I am able to hunt with my bow From October 1st - Jan 1st. That is a pretty extended season.
I hunt large sections of mainly public land. All that is necessary to devastate the population on these lands is to issue unlimited doe permits. The problem that exists in controlling the population occurs primarily on private land. Do you like to fish? That is a completely different can of worms.
<----<<<

TOW

04-08-2008, 03:51 PM

It is proof that there exists a legal distinction between crossbow use and vertical bow use. It is even more relevant here because the distinction was not limited to crossbows, but applied to vertical bows making sure you had to draw your compound in the presence of the game animal.

That's not "PROOF". That is legalese lanquage that is changed by the stroke of a pen. It happens every year in just about every state.

It happened when compounds were first recognized as legal archery hunting tools. Since crossbows are archery equipment, contrary to what some might say, they can be considered for archery season.

The simple fact that the DNR considers them OK to be used by the physicaly challenged for ARCHERY SEASON should be "proof" enough that they are archery equipment. The DNR does not allow a physically challenged individual to use a firearm of any kind in archery season do they?

A stroke of the pen, Joe.

BTW - speaking of "drawing in the presence of game"

The crossbow does have a slight advantage in this area. The string is back in a firing position before game is approaching. How much of an advantage is debatable as several things come into play.

1) Being 20 to 25 foot up a tree when attempting to draw a compound bow will lessen a deer’s ability to see you.

2) Bows are usually 75 to 90 percent let off so one can draw on a deer much sooner and hold longer to make a killing shot with less worry about the deer seeing you. Mike Beatty drew and held on the new world record non-typical buck for a full 3 minute before making the shot. That bow was a 85% let off. There is a bow on the market that is 99% let off ( Concpet99 - P & Y legal, with an asterisk) where one can draw the bow as soon as game is spotted and they can wait for however long it takes for that animal to approach the shooting area. A 60 pound bow and you are holding 6/10s of a pound in place - not really holding it back.

In fact if a bowhunter wanted to he could draw it back and hang it on his bow hook by the drawn string and the weight of the handle (3 pounds) would hold the bow at full draw until he is ready to shoot.

3) A number of hunters that use ground blinds are using a blind called Double Bull, “Doghouse”, etc that allows one to draw and shoot through a curtain and never be seen by the animal.

4) Most bowhunters learn when and when not to draw on a deer. IE – when it’s head is behind a bush or tree or allowing the deer to walk past them and shoot them quartering away.

Both pieces of equipment have to be raised into a shooting position. Only the compound has to be drawn. That draw should be straight back and covered somewhat by the bow and bow quiver (if one is on the bow). That is unless the person drawing the bow seriously over-bowed and has to horse it back with great exaggerated movements..

Regardless of the perceived advantage of “not having to draw back a crossbow” the kill percentages are identical for compounds and crossbows. THAT is where the rubber meets the road.

7MM Magnum

04-08-2008, 05:08 PM

Joe,... for a guy who says he's NOT against crossbows,.. you sure have a funny way of showing it in my opinion. :16suspect

Just about every post you have made that I have read anyway your responses to people speaking in favor of crossbows have been negative and argumentative. :rolleyes:

The crossbow is one of the oldest weapons still being utilized by modern man, using stored energy within the "limbs" and propelling its projectile/ arrow by means of a string. I totally agree with the statement TOW has just provided, and all comparisons of the crossbow to the compound there is VERY little difference especially when you factor in the string let-off of todays new line compound bows.

To quote a TV program phrase,... "RESISTANCE IS FUTILE !" :evilsmile

swampbuck

04-08-2008, 06:06 PM

Here is the difference between a cossbow and a rifle according to michigan law...

8) "Crossbow" means a weapon consisting of a bow mounted transversely on a stock or frame and designed to fire an arrow, bolt, or quarrel by the release of a bow string that is controlled by a mechanical or electric trigger and has a working safety and a draw weight of 100 pounds or greater.

12) "Firearm" means a weapon from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by using explosives, gas, or air. Firearm does not include a smooth bore rifle or handgun designed and manufactured exclusively for propelling BB's not exceeding .177 caliber by means of a spring, air, or gas

here is the definition of a bow. how many of you use a mechanical release?You might want to start doing it by hand:D

3) "Bow" means a device for propelling an arrow from a string drawn, held, and released by hand where the force used to hold the string in the drawn position is provided by the archer's muscles.

http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusmi324_40101-40119.htm

lang49

04-08-2008, 06:25 PM

comparisons of the crossbow to the compound there is VERY little difference especially when you factor in the string let-off of todays new line compound bows.

Then provided you're able to draw a bow, why bother legalizing it? Why don't you use the legal tool and appreciate the fact that we live in a country where we can?

I've heard all of these "compelling" reasons to legalize crossbows over the past several days. But somehow, these reasons don't seem so compelling to me.

Yeah, so we'll pick up 30,000 hunters, but 80% will be on private land, and with a 3 doe limit, we're not actually going to kill any more deer. And, a large percentage (shall we say 75%?) will have already bought combo licenses for use during other seasons. So, the DNR is only going to sell another 7500 licenses (if even that many).

What it really comes down to is just that some people want to hunt with a crossbow. Crossbows probably won't hurt the resource, but your claims that they're the saving grace of the deer herd don't seem all that legitimate.

TOW

04-08-2008, 06:41 PM

Then provided you're able to draw a bow, why bother legalizing it? Why don't you use the legal tool and appreciate the fact that we live in a country where we can?

Nope.. what the question should be to the anti-crossbow people is "Why not legalize it"?

If the only answer that you can come up with is an emotional plea that "we don't want them", then you should lose.

Tom Morang

04-08-2008, 06:49 PM

lang49

04-08-2008, 06:56 PM

If the only answer that you can come up with is an emotional plea that "we don't want them", then you should lose.

Not if we're the majority. :lol:

I wish you guys (those that are capable of drawing a bow) would just be honest. All I hear are excuses...good for the resource, no different that bows....yada yada yada...

Atleast I can admit that I'm concerned that crossbows are going to turn archery season into the zoo that is firearm season. I may not be right, but I'm willing to admit it.

You able bodied pro crossbowman can't seem to admit that you either don't want to, or don't enjoy shooting a bow (Don't worry Whit, I'm not going to speculate why :)).

Riva

04-08-2008, 07:06 PM

Then provided you're able to draw a bow, why bother legalizing it? Why don't you use the legal tool and appreciate the fact that we live in a country where we can?

I've heard all of these "compelling" reasons to legalize crossbows over the past several days. But somehow, these reasons don't seem so compelling to me.

Yeah, so we'll pick up 30,000 hunters, but 80% will be on private land, and with a 3 doe limit, we're not actually going to kill any more deer. And, a large percentage (shall we say 75%?) will have already bought combo licenses for use during other seasons. So, the DNR is only going to sell another 7500 licenses (if even that many).

What it really comes down to is just that some people want to hunt with a crossbow. Crossbows probably won't hurt the resource, but your claims that they're the saving grace of the deer herd don't seem all that legitimate.

You're still missing the point... This dialogue has absolutely nothing to do with incremental numbers of hunters afield, licenses sold and/or harvest impact. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, it is simply about giving people the opportunity to participate equally in an activity that they are unable to participate in because they have a disability.

If, after the work of the NRC is done and the numbers are big: it makes no difference. If, after the the work of the NRC is done and the numbers are small, it makes no difference. What makes a difference is the fact that if even one person is now able to participate equally, THAT is the difference and THAT is worth every calorie we burn through this endeavor.

Without purposely attempting to be melancholy or homiletic, this entire discourse reminds me of the Starfish Story, specifically:

Once a man was walking along a beach. The sun was shining and it was a beautiful day. Off in the distance he could see a person going back and forth between the surf's edge and the beach. Back and forth this person went. As the man approached he could see that there were hundreds of starfish stranded on the sand as the result of the natural action of the tide.

The man was stuck by the apparent futility of the task. There were far too many starfish. Many of them were sure to perish. As he approached the person continued the task of picking up starfish one by one and throwing them into the surf. As he came up to the person he said, "You must be crazy. There are thousands of miles of beach covered with starfish. You can't possibly make a difference." The person looked at the man. He then stooped down and picked up one more starfish and threw it back into the ocean. He turned back to the man and said, "It sure made a difference to that one!"

Again, it's not about hunters afield, license sales and/or harvest impact. Rather, it's about saving starfish!;)

Munsterlndr

04-08-2008, 07:09 PM

TOW said:

"The DNR does not allow a physically challenged individual to use a firearm of any kind in archery season do they?"

As a matter of fact tow the law states:

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_10913-37448--,00.html

Hunt from a Standing Vehicle Permit

A person who, due to injury, disease, amputation or paralysis, is permanently disabled and unable to walk and unable to enter and exit a vehicle, may apply for a permit to hunt from a standing vehicle. This permit allows a person to hunt, and shoot from, a parked motor vehicle or ORV. Subject to all other regulations, this permit also entitles the holder to take a deer of either sex under a valid deer license.

Click here for an application

Persons issued permits to hunt from a standing vehicle may hunt deer on private lands with proper permission in a special season from Oct. 20-21, 2007.

The DNR is requesting that this special season be lengthened to four days this year.

Tom-

Read your own post, TOW is right, the DNR does not let anyone use a firearm during archery season. The season that you describe is a special season that happens to run concurrently with archery season. The fact that the DNR is contemplating an early antlerless firearms deer season that would run concurrently with archery season does not mean that you will be able to shoot deer with a firearm during archery season, either. Hunters who are using a firearm during either of those special seasons could not harvest a deer with an archery license.

Munsterlndr

04-08-2008, 07:13 PM

Hey Lang49, I thought you said awhile back that you were done with this thread? Well, you know those bow hunters, never can trust what they say! :lol: :evilsmile

7MM Magnum

04-08-2008, 07:18 PM

Not if we're the majority. :lol:

I wish you guys (those that are capable of drawing a bow) would just be honest. All I hear are excuses...good for the resource, no different that bows....yada yada yada...

Atleast I can admit that I'm concerned that crossbows are going to turn archery season into the zoo that is firearm season. I may not be right, but I'm willing to admit it.

You able bodied pro crossbowman can't seem to admit that you either don't want to, or don't enjoy shooting a bow (Don't worry Whit, I'm not going to speculate why :)).

I personally don't plan on using one UNTIL I can no longer muster enough strength to pull the string on my bow and hold it in a SAFE, effective, accurate manner. BUT what about the women, kids, and adults who aren't technically disabled, want to hunt, and can't hold an effective killing draw weight ?

Just tell em NO huh?? :16suspect

You guys are really somthin',... I just WISH every last one of you would develop some kind of muscular symptom that would prevent you from drawing and holding your bows effectively, but your not too old, and your not disabled,... then let's hear the song you sing !! :mad:

Must be nice to be so pure! :rolleyes:

I KNOW why I left the MBA,.... short sighted people that only think of their own private purest adgenda,..

lang49

04-08-2008, 07:19 PM

You're right Munster...I give. :)

lang49

04-08-2008, 07:25 PM

\

Just tell em NO huh?? :16suspect

7 mag and Riva- I did make a distiction between disabled hunters and crossbows for the masses. I don't have a problem with disabled hunters using crossbows- period (see page #2).

Riva

04-08-2008, 07:45 PM

7 mag and Riva- I did make a distiction between disabled hunters and crossbows for the masses. I don't have a problem with disabled hunters using crossbows- period (see page #2).

Thank you for making that distinction. I too have no problem with disabled persons using a crossbow--so long as it includes all persons with any disability that, in the professional opinion of one's personal physician, render that person unable to pull and/or hold a long-, or compound bow.

What's the name of that old Bobby Vinton song?? Oh yeah..."There, I've said it again!"

TOW

04-08-2008, 08:13 PM

Not if we're the majority. :lol:

Be very, very careful in a "majority rules" when it comes to game management. Gun hunters are a ""majority" over bowhunters and non-hunters are a majority over all of us.

What if the gun hunters said we want to have fiorst crack at the deer for a change. We want part of that early arhcrey season and "we're the majority."

Not a good way to run anything is it?

To throw game managemnet open to a majority rules can be a very slippery slope.

I wish you guys (those that are capable of drawing a bow) would just be honest. All I hear are excuses...good for the resource, no different that bows....yada yada yada...

Honest? We would like to see another piece of archery equipment legalized so it can help us recruit young, smaller stature people (women) and retain older bowhunters. Do you see a negative there anywhere there?

Atleast I can admit that I'm concerned that crossbows are going to turn archery season into the zoo that is firearm season. I may not be right, but I'm willing to admit it.

It has not happened in any state that I am aware of. If you have real evidence that your concerns are justified, please share them with us.

You able bodied pro crossbowman can't seem to admit that you either don't want to, or don't enjoy shooting a bow (Don't worry Whit, I'm not going to speculate why :)).

I haven't met any piece of hunting equipment that I did not enjoy shooting. Except maybe a friends 10 gauge 3 1/2 incher....

Whit1

04-08-2008, 08:34 PM

"Don't worry Whit, I'm not going to speculate why :)"

Thanks! That's were we get into trouble........:lol:

soggybtmboys

04-08-2008, 08:36 PM

I favor an unrestricted addition of crossbows into the current archery seasons. I see no logical arguement why we should any longer prohibit the use of crossbows during the regular archery season for any hunter. If it gets a few more guys in the woods great. It helps keep hunting alive and in the SLP we could really use any and all help we can get to knock the herd down a bit.

I am a member of Michigan Bowhunters, but do not support the organizations stance on the crossbow issue, I believe it is a bit archaic. Surrounding states allow it to no adverse affect on their herds, nor their seasons.

Whit1

04-09-2008, 07:13 AM

"The Budget should be balanced; the treasury should be refilled; public debt should be reduced; and the arrogance of public officials should be controlled." - Cicero. 106-43 B.C.

That's a great and most appropriate quote Soggy, simple and to the point just like your post.
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/images/misc/progress.gif

Kurt4253

04-09-2008, 11:03 AM

Yesterday when I introduced my self I also made it clear that my position on the crossbow is one of full inclusion, without restriction, go buy a bow hunting license & go hunting.

The following is IN PART why I take this position.

One of the arguments made by the "die hard" vertical bow hunters that want the crossbow ether completely excluded &/or at the very least, - if it is going to have inclusion, - then the inclusion has to be regulated with VERY strict exceptions is, --- "hunting with a crossbow is to easy"

My response to such an argument is --------------

Since when, has HUNTING, been some kind of a competitive sport, - where in ALL THINGS MUST be made equal, according to SOMEONE ELSES rules of fair play, - based on THEIR ability to be proficient with PARTICULAR equipment, - or be regulated to sitting on the bench &/or sit in the bleachers.

Since when, has HUNTING, become some kind of a fraternal organization, in which I MUST pass some kind right of passage, - before I can participate.

I am sorry, - but HUNTING is NOT a "competitive" sport in which the "rules of fair play" apply. (meaning long bow must shoot against long bow, - recurve must shoot against recurve, - compound against compound, & xbow against xbow)

Rather, - HUNTING, - is an "individual pursuit" in which the individual PITS his or her own HUNTING SKILLS against the particular game animal they are pursuing. --- What DOES apply here, - is the rules of "fair chase"

Rules of fair chase & rules of fair play are two VERY different things. --- Rules of fair play, - come into play, when two(or more) people are COMPETING to see who is the better of the two (or more) with the playing field made equal (in this case shooters shooting the same equipment) so that one competitor does not have a GREAT advantage over the other(s) --- Rules of fair chase, on the other hand, come into play to INSURE, that the individual is acting in a moral & ethical manner in the activity they are participating in.

Therefore, - HUNTING, - has NOTHING to do with me &/or John Brown, needing to go through someone else's fraternal right of passage in order to participate.

If HUNTING is a competitive sport &/or some kind of fraternal right of passage thing, - then IN FACT, - stick & string shooters, - should IN FACT be given a head start &/or longer season then compound shooters. PERIOD.

Kurt

wally-eye

04-09-2008, 11:15 AM

Kurt4253

04-09-2008, 11:35 AM

Here are just "SOME" facts to concider in this discussion concerning the crossbow (& I will certianly be posting more as time goes on) Kurt ;)

What is a crossbow?

In the majority of the world the answer would be yes, they are archery equipment.

Only in the United States do you get some bowhunters and bowhunting organizations that don't think that. Of course they are protecting their own turf.

THE NAA - the OLDEST archery organization have recognized crossbows for about 60 years. The International Bowhunters Organization has had a crossbow division for several years AND growing every year. THE NFAA now recognizes crossbows at its VEGAS championships. Atlantic City had crossbow divisions for years, that shoot was recently acquired by the NFAA, but its crossbow division is several decades old.

The Archery Trade Association and its predecessor, the Archery Manufacturers Organization recognizes crossbows as archery equipment.

So does most retail dealers- almost every shop that sells archery equipment and guns have crossbows in the archery department, not the firearm counter. Go into Bass Pro or Cabela’s (or any other sporting goods store) and see where the crossbows are kept.

Every archery catalog I get from the retailers has crossbows in it. Bow and Arrow Magazine carries crossbow advertising.

According to the Internal Revenue Service, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and all state wildlife agencies, crossbows are archery equipment:

> Crossbows and accessories that attach to crossbows as well as crossbow arrows are defined in the Internal Revenue Code that pertains to the archery excise tax.

> The US Fish & Wildlife Service receives the archery excise tax funds - of which about 10% are from crossbows - from the IRS and allocates those dollars to the state wildlife agencies through the Pittman Robertson program.

> State wildlife agencies receive archery excise tax dollars in amounts determined by a formula that includes the number of licensed hunters (including all those who hunt with crossbows) and the area of the state.

Regardless of what we think, the government treats crossbows like archery equipment.

Now with compound bows - The International Olympic Committee doesn't recognize compounds as archery equipment. The PAN AMERICAN games don't recognize compounds as archery equipment.

Why have crossbows been welcomed at NAA sanctioned shoots many years longer then the compound bow? Hmm?

Several European countries don’t recognize any archery gear for hunting purpose. Thanks to bowhunters in England that complained that the crossbows were “inhumane” After a government study they ended up banning all archery hunting as “inhumane”.

I don't think we want to head down that path..

A crossbow propels an arrow from the fastly forward moving string powered by a set of bent limbs. The trajectory of the arrow is VERY similar to that of an arrow launched by a compound bow. On the end of that arrow is the same broadhead that is used by any other hunting archer. That arrow kills that deer from lung collapse and blood loss.

Riva

04-09-2008, 12:39 PM

Kurt,

Your points are well taken however: the functionality and efficacy of a crossbow are not as issue here. The State of Michigan has already determined that a crossbow (and for that matter, a drawlock) is a reasonable accomodation for a person with a disability to hunt with. It's fact. It's done deal. Let's move on.

The issue is the criteria for determining who qualifies (not sure "qualify" is the correct word?) to use/access the reasonable accomodation (aka "crossbow).

Some say if you are not able-bodied, you still shouldn't be able use a crossbow whatsoever. If you believe in the concept of hell, that's where you'll eventually find these people. :sad:

Some say that we should have very strict criteria, like we have now, to assure that only the most severely disabled and the able-bodied can participate in the archery season. This the The Michigan Bow Hunter's official position :dizzy:

Some are suggesting that we expand the criteria so as to not be as strict , to assure that few more of the most severely disabled and the able-bodied participate in the archery season. This is what the NRC is currently discussing: :confused:

I am suggesting, that ANY criteria is 100% certain to exclude a person with a disability that is still unable to pull and/or hold a long-, or compound-bow. By including some and excluding others is discrimination. The LAW states that it is illegal to discriminate against a person with a disability :eek:.

To this writer, there is no debate: if you have a disability, permanent or temporary, of a degree of severity that your person physician states that, in his/her professional opinion, render you unable to pull and/or hold along-, or compound bow, that should be the ONLY criteria surrounding these matters :).

No disrespect, but that is the only issue that the NRC and State Legistature are considering at this moment. They are not considering matters pertaining to unrestricted use of crossbows as many here are advocating. Not that this subject doesn't have it's place, and should perhaps be addessed, but it not here and it is not now.

To summarize, it's not about crossbows. It's about equal participation.

BTW welcome to the forums.

HTC

04-09-2008, 01:02 PM

I bow hunt and I support the regulation change.

Adding crossbows to archery season will not make October 1st into the new November 15th. Additionally, the sky will not fall, the deer herd will be unaffected and your tree stand will still be there in the morning.

I would wager that weather patterns in gun season have a far greater impact on population numbers than adding a few Seniors with crossbows to the October Season.

Think about most old seasoned hunters, do you really think they are going to ruin bow season? Do you really think they will steal your stand? We need to worry more about the guy in Gander Mountain buying his first bow 3 nights before the opener.

Kurt4253

04-09-2008, 01:38 PM

Riva

04-09-2008, 02:54 PM

Hello Riva

I don't see in any of my posting where I brought up anything concerning - "the functionality and effacy of a crossbow"

However, - I would have to say that those issues do in fact play into the issue of, - "criteria for determining who qualifies"

It is the "functionality and effacy" that brings to question whether or not should have restricted inclusion OR full inclusion.

You posted; - No disrespect, but that is the only issue that the NRC and State Legistature are considering at this moment. They are not considering matters pertaining to unrestricted use of crossbows as many here are advocating. Not that this subject doesn't have it's place, and should perhaps be addessed, but it not here and it is not now.

OK - I understand concerning what is taking place with the NRC & state Legislature "RIGHT NOW" ---However, - it is my opinion that, that needs to change. --- The discussion NEEDS to change from JUST relaxing the law for the disabled, - to discussing "full & unrestricted inclusion" other wise we are IN FACT still dealing with discrimination, just a more relaxed proposal of it.

Consequently, - if not here & now, - then where & when?????

And by the way, you are right about ONE thing, - "It's about equal participation" --- Equal participation of the CROSSBOW!!!!!

Kurt

I'm not quarrelling with you. I just see this issue as so very important that advocating unrestricted use within the context of this dialogue as potentially distracting from the matters at hand. Likewise, this is exactly what the Anti-Crossbow Society (ACS) wants to have happen, specifically: debate amongs ourselves so that nothing gets changed!

I was recently asked by a member here if I would head up an effort to advocate unrestricted use of crossbows. I respectfully declined, at least for the time being, because I see this issue, the criteria surround disabilities, as the most realistic opportunity to affect meaningful change in the short term. Accordingly, I am going to stay focused soley on that issue. If you want to champion the unrestricted use cause, have at it.

As Vito Corleone said in Godfather movie: "I want to congratulate you on your new business and I'm sure you'll do very well and good luck to you. Especially since your interests don't conflict with mine. Thank you."

Kurt4253

04-10-2008, 08:28 AM

Under HB 5741, the disability threshold would be reduced from 80% to 60%, people with neuromuscular diseases would no longer have to be re-tested annually and most importantly, crossbows could be used by anyone 69 years or older during the October bow season. We have already been approached by legislators and hunters proposing amendments to move the automatic age to 65, 55 or to simply not to discriminate between crossbows and compound bows for anyone.

The intent on the bill is to increase the number of hunters in the field in October, particularly those hunters who would hunt with a compound bow if they were physically able to. Neighboring areas such as Ohio, Illinois, Wisconsin and Ontario all allow crossbow use during their early deer archery season for either the general population or seniors regardless of disability.

We would appreciate the feedback of Michigan hunters regarding this proposal and suggestions for changes.

Riva

I also am not trying to quarrel, --- from what I see, from the original post, - yes, - the "current" proposal, - as it "currently" stands, - is to only relax the "restrictions" --- However, - based on what I have underlined, - in the "original" post, - at this time, - they are IN FACT looking for feed back, - suggestions, - &/or proposals, to be "considered" for the possibility of "amending" the "proposal" as it currently stands.

Another words, at least as I see the "original" post - there is an existing "proposal". --- That proposal is in committee for review. The very purpose of committee review is to hear & CONSIDER feed back, - suggestions, - &/or proposals, that could VERY WELL change the current proposal, as it currently stands, - BEFORE it goes to the legislature for vote.

Another words, - the REQUEST of the original post, - was to OPEN discussion, - so the committee could hear, - from the public, - feed back, - suggestions, - &/or proposals. --- The committee wants to know, - is the proposal good, as is, - OR, - does it need to be amended ???

IF amended, how &/or what??? --- this could mean, throw the current proposal out & leave the law as it currently stands, - OR, - EXPAND it to even being less restrictive, up to & including full inclusion of crossbow.

Consequently - NOW & HERE - is the time & place to discuss it, - while it is still in committee & OPEN to discussion. --- Hence (& mean this with no disrespect) but if you stand for full inclusion, - then you should hold to that position. --- Other wise, - what you are doing, is trying to divert attention from the REQUEST of the original post & make people believe that its not an open discussion &/or that it is already a done deal.

If it was already a done deal, - there would be no need to ask for feed back, - suggestions, - &/or proposals!!!

Kurt

TOW

04-10-2008, 09:03 AM

Riva

Another words, - the REQUEST of the original post, - was to OPEN discussion, - so the committee could hear, - from the public, - feed back, - suggestions, - &/or proposals. --- The committee wants to know, - is the proposal good, as is, - OR, - does it need to be amended ???

IF amended, how &/or what??? --- this could mean, throw the current proposal out & leave the law as it currently stands, - OR, - EXPAND it to even being less restrictive, up to & including full inclusion of crossbow.Kurt

You are 100% correct...The least we can hope for is to relax the present "handicapped provision" and the most we can hope for is full inclusion.

The committee is waiting on what the NRC is doing first. What the NRC does can be rubber stamped or changed.

Consequently - NOW & HERE - is the time & place to discuss it, - while it is still in committee & OPEN to discussion. ---

YEP....we are being watched..

Kurt4253

04-11-2008, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Mich. Buck Wacker
The way I see it is if you are allwed a certain number of deer each year what does it matter what type of weapon you use?

Using that line of reasoning we should be able to use a gun during bowseason too.

This topic came up on another discussion forum, - this was my answer

Our wildlife is a natural resource & as such it does need to be managed. --- Managing the wildlife, to some degree, does in fact require managing the hunters also. - So it is not as simple as saying OK we have (X) number of deer in this state & we can "safely" harvest (Y) number of deer, so lets open season & allow hunters to hunt when they want, - with what ever they want, - till we reach the (Y) number then close the season.

Here is the thing (at least as I see it) --- When you compare hunting with a gun to hunting with archery equipment the gun has a HUGE advantage over archery equipment!!! --- AND, yes I know "some" vertical archers would like everyone to believe that there is a huge difference between hunting with a vertical bow & hunting with a crossbow.

The "problem" with that argument is that years of "recorded data" from states that allow for the full inclusion of crossbow in the archery season PROVE that, - that simply is not true. --- Now why is that a fact of PROVABLE recorded data???

It is because of the modern compound bow. The modern compound bow, - does IN FACT have an advantage over the long bow &/or recurve. --- However, the advantage is not considered "so great" to constitute regulating them into different seasons. --- Another words, the inclusion of the compound bow in the archery season, along with the good old stick & string, does not impact the archery harvest rate so great, to demand separate seasons, even though there is an advantage to hunting with the compound.

The same holds true for the crossbow. --- Any advantage that the crossbow has over ether the stick & string &/or the compound (& especially the compound) is NOT so great, to constitute regulating it to a season of its own. --- That is a PROVEN fact, from YEARS of recorded data in states that allow full inclusion of the crossbow in the archery season. --- It simply DOES NOT impact the archery harvest rate, in so great of away to call for its being restricted, much let alone excluded. WHY????

Because of the logistics of the shot. --- They are ALL (relatively speaking) VERY short range weapons. - Consequently, regardless of which one you hunt with, - it is far more about your skill as a hunter, in order set up the situation, to get the shot, & take the shot, ---- then it is about whether or not one is easier to shoot then the other &/or whether or not there are "some" advantages of one compared to the other.

It is REALLY this simple. --- Regardless of which one you hunt with, - long bow, recurve, compound, or crossbow, - if you don't have the skills, to set up the situation, to get & take the shot, within the same shooting range & conditions (again relatively speaking) you are going to go home hungry!!!!

Kurt

TOW

04-12-2008, 05:24 PM

No more input??

7MM Magnum

04-12-2008, 06:34 PM

No more input??

Think the subject has been pretty well debated out,... there has NOT been ANY sound, logical,
irrefutable evidence presented to suggest that crossbows should NOT be allowed.

Lots of input that was FOR the crossbow addition has had substantial evidence
for it's allowance based on other states actual experience and documented numbers.

Let's just hope Michigan will follow their lead and regulate some hunting season(s)
to fully integrate the crossbows with our other hunting choices.

sputty

04-12-2008, 11:12 PM

Crossbows for all!

Liv4Huntin'

04-13-2008, 03:36 PM

If it takes practice, patience, and a little luck; it bow season. Allowing crossbows during the long bow season, would allow everyone with $300 the opportunity of a 3 month season. That's not how the season dates were designed. In my opinion, you can not introduce a new weapon that anyone can pick up and shoot, into an existing season. --Overdraw

REALLY ??????? How about HANDGUNS ????? Your bias is showing!
~ m ~

caseman

04-13-2008, 07:40 PM

Just legalize it for everyone

Kurt4253

04-14-2008, 09:49 AM

No more input??

And I have to ask, - why not????????

Kurt4253

04-14-2008, 10:05 AM

Think the subject has been pretty well debated out,...

From the rest of your post I see that you are pro crossbow, --- however, I have to disagree that this issue has been debated out !!!

WHY ??? --- Because it will not be done, untill the crossbow is given "full inclusion" in all 50 states "including" Michigan !!! WHY ??? Because the FACTS, DATA, & INTEREST - in fact show, - that untill "full inclusion" happens, - it will not be over.

Did you now that in North America there are OVER 500,000 crossbow owners/shooters/hunters.

That is a significant number of people with an interest in the crossbow & they are not going to give up untill they get the recognition they desirve &/or the equal & rightfull place in the hunting line up that facts & data supports !!!!

Kurt

skipper34

04-14-2008, 11:40 AM

With reading all of the pro's and con's of crossbows, I just have one question...........what is it that the anti-crossbow group is afraid of?

Skinner 2

04-14-2008, 12:00 PM

With reading all of the pro's and con's of crossbows, I just have one question...........what is it that the anti-crossbow group is afraid of?

That somebody else will shoot "THEIR" deer.

Skinner

Kurt4253

04-14-2008, 03:01 PM

That somebody else will shoot "THEIR" deer.

Skinner

You are EXACTLY right Skinner. --- I have been on a number of Xbow discussion forums for about a year now & ultimately that is exactly what it comes down to. They are afraid that if the crossbow is allowed, the woods (or should I say THEIR woods) will become over crowded with hunters, during THEIR season, which will lead to more of THEIR deer being killed, which would result in THEM having less of a chance of a shot at THEIR coveted TROPHY.

The problem with that argument (& most if not ALL of their arguments) is that they (the anti arguments) can ALL be disproved by YEARS of collected statistics, facts & data from states that have allowed for the inclusion of crossbow.

I believe, without question, that ultimately, in the end, the crossbow is going to have full inclusion in all 50 states!!! WHY??? because of statistics, facts & data, which brings TRUTH to the table, - and - truth will all ways win out over lies & fear.

Another words, - it is no longer a question of WHO is right, - rather it has become a question of WHAT is right, - & that is just what statistics, facts & data do, - they PROVE what is right!!!

Kurt

skipper34

04-14-2008, 03:34 PM

These anti-crossbow groups probably cried the blues when the compound bow came on the scene. They are also the same crybabies who are using a compound bow to hunt with today. In other words, as hypocritical as there is.

Whit1

04-14-2008, 03:59 PM

Guys and gals we do need to get back to be basis of this thread which is "Thoughts Wanted on Crossbow Proposal".

We can rag and hammer on each other, especially, as this is turning out, those who are against easing the regulations on crossbow use. It gets nowhere and yes, I am as guilty as many.

We've been asked a question and perhaps its time to review just what that was so I urge you to take a look at Brady's first post.

Keep the slamming out of here. It won't get anywhere and just cause ill feelings.

skipper34

04-14-2008, 04:08 PM

Sorry Whit, my bad. Won't happen again.

Buckeye Dan

04-17-2008, 12:11 PM

Well I am sure most of you Michigan hunters could care less what an Ohioan has to say about this issue but here it is anyway. Crossbow hunting in this state has been around for at least as long as I have had interest in crossbows. That's 18 years and I am pretty sure it's been around much longer than that. I am sure the Ohio Department of Natural Resources could provide crossbow supporters with enough data (18+ years) to show that crossbow hunting has NO ill effects whatsoever. I Think this issue has been reduced to the age old debate of vertical bow hunters versus horizontal bow hunters. WE both cock our bows. WE both nock an arrow. WE both move our fingers to release that arrow. In fact the only real answer to that silly debate is the bow and crossbow technology has advanced so much that we should all put on a loin cloth and hunt with pointed sticks. Crossbows use the same broad heads as a vertical bow. A kill shot is considered 30-40 yards with maybe a 50yrd max range. You can expect to shoot 2-3 inch groups. You will likely only get ONE shot. Looks exactly like the same limitations as a vertical bow to me. Focus on the issue here. It's about allowing the disabled and elderly to hunt with a weapon that is no more dangerous than a vertical bow. Why would anyone deny them that opportunity. In fact why wouldn't every hunter be allowed to use a crossbow. Just like we have been here in Ohio for all these years. I can take 3 deer in my county with pretty much my weapon of choice. It doesn't matter which weapon... It is still 3 deer. We don't allow high powered rifles in this state but look at the advancement of the muzzle loader. UH OH! They shoot 200 yards now...time to revert to flint locks and round balls. Come on folks and get some perspective. It's not machine guns and rocket launchers. Its a single arrow 50 yard shot for someone who may not be able to use the archery season otherwise. In my opinion crossbows should be legal to any archery season in every state. In this case however it's all about the folks who are not blessed with full mobility or youth. LET EM HUNT!

PsEbUcKmAsTeR17

04-17-2008, 01:01 PM

Great post Dan,:woohoo1:

I agree 100%.

-Psebuckmaster17-

7MM Magnum

04-17-2008, 01:07 PM

:yeahthat:

GREAT post Dan !!

It would be great to get our hands on 18+ years of viable information to support Michigan's efforts in the allowance of crossbows! :D

cadillacjethro

04-17-2008, 01:23 PM

:yeahthat:

GREAT post Dan !!

It would be great to get our hands on 18+ years of viable information to support Michigan's efforts in the allowance of crossbows! :D

Careful, He's probably a Buckeye fan.:lol: Great post regardless.

Riva

04-17-2008, 02:28 PM

:yeahthat:

GREAT post Dan !!

It would be great to get our hands on 18+ years of viable information to support Michigan's efforts in the allowance of crossbows! :D

Virtually every state that allows crossbow hunting, either unrestricted and/or for the disabled, have created "impact reports" surrounding crossbow use in that state. It just takes a little digging to find the reports but, they are out and in the public domain.

If you don't want to go through all that work to find and toil through all the data, I can pretty well summarize the mulitude of reports in just a few sentences:

"Crossbows do not negatively affect the resource."

"Crossbows are affective in recruiting and maintaining people in recreational hunting activities."

"Crossbows inject much needed revenue into departmental budgets and local economies"

See, I've saved you all the work! :lol:

7MM Magnum

04-17-2008, 02:55 PM

Whew,... Thanks Riva for handling that :D

Talk about summarization ! :evilsmile :lol:

beervo2

04-17-2008, 03:21 PM

GREAT post Dan !!
It's nice to hear from out of state people to..:coolgleam

swampbuck

04-17-2008, 07:24 PM

Virtually every state that allows crossbow hunting, either unrestricted and/or for the disabled, have created "impact reports" surrounding crossbow use in that state. It just takes a little digging to find the reports but, they are out and in the public domain.

If you don't want to go through all that work to find and toil through all the data, I can pretty well summarize the mulitude of reports in just a few sentences:

"Crossbows do not negatively affect the resource."

"Crossbows are affective in recruiting and maintaining people in recreational hunting activities."

"Crossbows inject much needed revenue into departmental budgets and local economies"

See, I've saved you all the work! :lol:

Riva, For someone on a different page, Your info sure is helpful to our side.

Buckeye Dan

04-19-2008, 12:29 AM

Did some research myself...
Ohio introduced crossbow hunting in 1976 as part of the regular archery season. That is over 30 years of data for use. All of the crossbow manufacturers have this data. Contact some of their reps for help in this matter and data collection. As I understand it Ten Point and Horton are very pro active in these types of legislation. See if you can get them involved. I had several links to provide for data and research statistics but it appears I am not allowed to post links until I reach 5 posts.

Well the one interesting detail I can provide is to google with this in the box: State Crossbow Hunting Regulations US & Canada. That should bring you to huntersfriend DOT com. What you are looking for is the number of western states with stern rules or the ones that make it illegal to use a crossbow altogether. Most of these states you are allowed to use a high powered rifle to kill a deer with telescope ranges. Somehow they feel threatened by a 40 yard weapon. I don't know what argument made these states the way they are but it's utter stupidity to think it is "The poachers weapon of choice". They must have some pretty stupid poachers out west. Not that any poacher is smart to begin with but I would use a semi auto high powered rifle if I were so inclined to poach in say Nevada where it is illegal to use a crossbow to take any game.

In Ohio our deer population rebounds every year after harvest. To the best of my knowledge we break our record almost every year for number of deer taken. The ratio to bow and crossbow hunter is virtually equal and the success rates are also virtually equal. Accident rates are also..you guessed it virtually equal. Apparently you are as apt to not wear a safety harness in your stand or shoot your buddy no matter which bow you use. The last report I read said that the poachers weapon of choice was the .22LR round in this state.

I fail to understand why anyone can't hunt with a crossbow during archery season. I really fail to understand why my arthritic father with a pacemaker can't hunt with a crossbow without passing the "You are crippled enough test"

I wish you all in Michigan (pro crossbow hunters/disabled/elderly) the very best of luck with your en devours. For those of you that oppose this legislature perhaps you too will forget to wear that safety harness while in your tree stands someday. This type of legislature will have meaning then won't it?