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November Sunrise
02-28-2008, 03:45 PM
The article below was posted over at Indianasportman.com. I do not know where this article was originally published as a link was not provided.

I found the following statement from the article to be very interesting:

Although he declined to comment on Indiana’s deer management plan, Mike Tonkovich, Ohio’s top deer biologist, had a lot to say about long, drawn-out deer gun seasons. And none of it was good.

“If the goal is to cull more deer from the herd, there is no question that short, separated seasons is the way to go,” he said.

Even with two additional days last year, Ohio allowed only 13 days of combined firearms deer hunting in 2007. They also didn’t open gun season until November 26, more than a week later than Indiana.

“We experimented with a longer gun season in Ohio in 1995 and 1996. The additional days only accounted for two percent of the harvest,” Tonkovich revealed. “It was not worth the effort, and didn’t help us control the herd in any way.”


Here's the full text of the piece:

IDNR deer management out of step

February 8, 2008

Indiana’s firearm deer season is like none other in the Midwest. With 32 days of combined gun hunting allowed here, we not only have the longest seasons, but we’re also one of only a few states that open gun season during the peak of the chasing phase of the rut. That liberal management style has drawn the ire of hunters for years with little response by the Indiana Department of Natural Resources.

But hunters aren’t the only people who question the way our DNR structures deer season. Landowners and trained deer managers don’t understand why we have such long gun seasons either.

Though he declined to comment on Indiana’s deer management plan, Mike Tonkovich, Ohio’s top deer biologist, had a lot to say about long, drawn-out deer gun seasons. And none of it was good.

“If the goal is to cull more deer from the herd, there is no question that short, separated seasons is the way to go,” he said.

Even with two additional days last year, Ohio allowed only 13 days of combined firearms deer hunting in 2007. They also didn’t open gun season until November 26, more than a week later than Indiana.

“We experimented with a longer gun season in Ohio in 1995 and 1996. The additional days only accounted for two percent of the harvest,” Tonkovich revealed. “It was not worth the effort, and didn’t help us control the herd in any way.”

He added that over the past several years, not a single hunter survey has been returned with a request to lengthen Ohio’s deer season.

Tom Micetich, deer project manager for the Illinois Department of Natural Resources, agrees with Tonkovich.

“We have proven that shorter, separated gun seasons are not only the best way to manage our herd at a healthy and desirable level, they are also preferred by the great majority of our hunters,” he said.

Illinois offers 13 days of combined firearms deer seasons. They are split into three- and four-day groups and spread out over two months.

Illinois also experimented with a longer firearms season in the 1970s. They got the same results as Ohio.

“It was the only time our harvest actually dipped,” Micetich said. “The deer disappeared after the first few days, hurting the hunters who waited instead of harvesting the first deer they encountered. The result was hunters who normally killed deer in other years, likely ended that season empty-handed.”

Since returning to the current short gun season structure, 70 percent of Illinois deer hunters say they are satisfied with the timing and structure of deer season there.

Illinois and Ohio aren’t the only places where deer biologists and hunters are in step with shorter gun seasons. Kentucky allows a maximum of 27 days of firearms hunting, Missouri allows 21 days, Iowa allows 20 days and Wisconsin allows only 18 days of firearms hunting.

But a healthy, manageable deer herd is not the only reason deer managers in all those states prefer shorter gun seasons.

“Farmers and other landowners can deal with a week of the gun season, but more than that is an undue burden on them,” Tonkovich said.

He explained that the vast majority of trespass, poaching and harassment calls to the Ohio DNR happen during deer firearms season. Like Indiana, Ohio is approximately 95 percent private property, and that leads to a lot of problems since deer don’t respect boundary lines, he said.

“It is just an unsafe time for landowners,” he added, saying they are increasingly forced to patrol their property and confront intruders.

Ohio’s understanding of the burden a long gun season places on landowners is shared by every state in the Midwest except for, once again, Indiana.

“Deer firearms season is by far our busiest time of year,” said Jason Sherman, an Illinois conservation police officer. “I’m not saying I think deer gun hunters are bigger violators than anyone else. It is just a matter of volume.”

It’s a tough time for landowners, who are forced to defend their property against the sudden increase of people in the field, he added.

So, if shorter gun seasons are more efficient at controlling the deer herd, and if they reduce the conflicts between landowners, the non-hunting public and hunters, then why has the Indiana Department of Natural Resources clung to its antiquated management scheme?

Since hunter satisfaction is at an all-time high in both Ohio and Illinois, and they both continue to sell more deer tags every year, it can’t be because they fear losing hunters or revenue.

Only the DNR knows the answer to the question. It would be nice, however, if someone at the DNR could explain to the rest of the world why they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Don Mulligan can be reached at outdoorswithdon@aol.com.




fairfax1
02-28-2008, 04:08 PM
I could see that idea being a wildly controversial one in Michigan.

On a positive side: Multiple "Opening Days" could be as attractive as multiple-Christmases....both for the participants and associated merchants.

However, the northern part of the State has evolved a practice of the traditional "deer camp" with an extended stay.....5days, maybe 7days. Traditionalists would pitch a beef with a giddy-up/whoa type of format. But then, it does seem that the extended 'camp experience' is in decline.

I would be surprised if such an idea would get much traction in the UP, but there is much to like about it for the SLP.

Could our DNR be bold enough to attempt such an idea?

Nick Adams
02-28-2008, 06:12 PM
If the goal is to get hunters to voluntarily pass on more young bucks, it seems counterintuitive to significantly reduce the field time the have available to harvest a deer.

If the goal is to have more of an impact on deer population numbers by encouraging hunters to tag out more quickly (and preferably on more does), I don't see why this approach is any more applicable to firearms hunters than it is to archery hunters.

-na

King of the Road
02-28-2008, 06:12 PM
Could our DNR be bold enough to attempt such an idea?

Drumroll.................no.

I believe our SLP now has 33 days of legal gun hunting for bucks. And another couple weeks after that for antlerless deer.

And what has that wrought us? The worst buck age structure in North America and herd density roughly double the DNR's stated population goals.


In any other line of work, it would be called malpractice.

In the SLP, we need a new, creative strategy to kill more does. Lots more.

And we need a shorter gun season that starts around the same time that Ohio's gun season begins.

M1Garand
02-29-2008, 04:12 AM
What? And give up the two week tradition? :)

Here's the link to the story:

http://www.kpcnews.com/articles/2008/02/08/features/columnists/don_mulligan/doc47ac57115354f168831217.txt

Pinefarm
02-29-2008, 07:04 AM
A dual opener ONLY would be possible here if we did like those dual opener states and only allowed 1 buck tag for either the whole year or at least for firearms seasons. Dual openers CANNOT be allowed with any combo tag.

Nick, it seems counter intuitive, but my experience in Illinois (with 2 short sep firearms seasons followed by a short muzzleloader season. I believe Season 1 is 3 days (Fri, Sat, Sun), Season 2 is 4 days and ML season is 4 days (both Thurs-Sun) is that it makes you more apt to fill your doe tag. With it being a short season, you still know things will be good for bucks on the final day 3 or 4 Sunday because guys will be doing drives, 1 man pushes, ect. So you are more apt to pass a buck and shoot the first big doe you see than if you think that things are pretty much over by noon of the 16th, like we have in many area's now.
That's why it's counter intuitive.

Now, IL is having some issue's with big "for fee" properties where all the out of state hunters who flock there aren't interested in does and now they have a doe problem. But I hunted on regular old farmer ground in Pike county. All the residents I hunted with, came across and talked to shot does ASAP.

Fairfax, as a former sporting goods business owner in the NLP, I can assure you that the extended stay of NLP hunters during "rifle" season ended around 1990.
Now, the vast, vast majority of hunters come up the early on Nov. 14th and leave by dark on the 16th. If at all.

fairfax1
02-29-2008, 09:38 AM
Pinefarm notes: "....as a former sporting goods business owner in the NLP, I can assure you that the extended stay of NLP hunters during "rifle" season ended around 1990.
Now, the vast, vast majority of hunters come up the early on Nov. 14th and leave by dark on the 16th. If at all."

OK, PF, that sounds credible. It surely is the way it is in my area of the SLP. It is beer, BBQ, and cards on the 14th; hunt on the 15th, maybe the morning of the 16th....and then good-bye, back to the wife & job.

The November shotgun season in Clinton, Gratiot, Ingham, Ionia, southern Montcalm counties is mostly a 2-day wonder.

That is what leads me to believe that the 'short-separate season' gig would be a benefit for, at least, the SLP. By that I mean primarily a cultural/commercial benefit. Hunters get to experience the thrill & comradarie of a couple of "Opening Days". And the bullets & beer merchants get to double dip.

What impact it would have on the actual harvest of deer, I have no opinion until I read more about it. At first blush, I cannot yet see where it would be bad.

.................................................. ......

As long as I'm quoting you, PF, let me expand this a bit: You made reference recently to a concept that I thought was cluefull. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but what I got out of your idea was this: That much of our deer hunting culture, traditions, habits, and regulations, sprang from the experience of deer hunting in the public land UP/NLP during a time when there was not a huntable population of deer in the SLP.

The SLP now has more deer and deer hunters ( I think) than the other two regions combined. The paradigm has shifted (forgive me on that one). Yet, some of our most relevant regulations...targeted animals, season dates, bag limits.... have not changed to keep up with the changes in deer populations and regional hunter populations.

Anyway, that's the implications I drew from your earlier observations. I believe you are spot-on. Our deer hunting culture/regulations have remained in the UP/NLP analog which doesn't adequately address the 'digital' SLP. So to speak.

.................................................. ............

I'm not one who feels that the DNR has mismanaged our deer herd. They established goals that most folks thought were worthwhile...a deer in nearly every freezer. And by an large, they've done it. Harvest numbers and population numbers are huge. So, it appears to me a stated goal has been met.

Now, with the emergence of more impassioned and learned hobby-hunters (QDM'rs, plotters, habitatists, big-antler guys, etc.) there is a new lense by which we view the DNR. Fair enough, but let's not condemn them too stridently because they did what they said they would based on what they believed their constituency wanted.

Nick Adams
02-29-2008, 09:52 AM
Nick, it seems counter intuitive, but my experience in Illinois (with 2 short sep firearms seasons followed by a short muzzleloader season. .... is that it makes you more apt to fill your doe tag. With it being a short season, ....you are more apt to pass a buck and shoot the first big doe you see than if you think that things are pretty much over by noon of the 16th.

Many firearms hunters up here do not have an antlerless tag option. What effect might that have on your analysis?

On the other hand, every single archery hunter does have an antlerless tag, regardless of location. Maybe we should test your theory by cutting the archery season down from two or three months to 2 or 3 weekends?

-na

NoWake
02-29-2008, 10:01 AM
I'm thankful for the long season we have. It never seems to fail we are almost always buried at work in the fall and can't make any serious plans or set aside any specific time for deer hunting.

Even though I enjoy the extra time available, I would be all for the seasons being whatever is best for the deer herd first and for the State second.

November Sunrise
02-29-2008, 10:14 AM
I'm thankful for the long season we have.

What I thought of when I read this article is doe harvest in the SLP, and the oft discussed topic of simply adding an opportunity or two at doe harvest early in the fall.

If I were king I'd leave everything else as is and begin with a 3 day all weapon (Fri.-Sun.) antlerless only hunt in the SLP during the weekend previous to the youth hunt in September. Run it for three years and assess the impact - I believe it would be a step in the right direction.

swampbuck
02-29-2008, 10:22 AM
Many firearms hunters up here do not have an antlerless tag option. What effect might that have on your analysis?

On the other hand, every single archery hunter does have an antlerless tag, regardless of location. Maybe we should test your theory by cutting the archery season down from two or three months to 2 or 3 weekends?

-na

:yeahthat:

or the combo could become 1 doe and 1 restricted buck for everyone. But I could probably do well with that mars proposal if I had 3 opening days:D

Pinefarm
02-29-2008, 04:01 PM
Nick, if archers ever get to the point where the bows in their hands have the range and the power of a high powered rifle or the Oct. 1-3 bow opener accounts for roughly 50% of the buck harvest, like Nov.15-17 does, then shortening the archery season could be a possibility. Especially in the UP.

I think the point being missed is, hunters will kill more does with a shorter season, than shoot less bucks. Since many guys now only hunt Nov.15-16 due to our busy lives, most guys are buck only hunting then, regardless of if they have doe permits. But, then when they go back out on the morning of the 20th for a 2 hour sit, they often see nothing. Then when they go back out around Thanksgiving, they may only see a button buck.

The key is to guide hunters into using their antlerless tags whlie the antlerless deer are running around and visible and not to try to start hunting does only once the woods are locked down for 10 days after the Nov.15-16 blitz.
Why do you think muzzleloader hunters do a decent job shooting does? It's because the woods have settled down again in December.

For example, this past year I was sick with walking pneumonia for much of the season. But I still got out a little after Nov.15. But over Thanksgiving, I couldn't have killed a doe if I wanted to. I only saw some unknown fawns at dark. But by ML season, the deer were everywhere again. The afternoon I shot my doe, there were deer all over. I saw like 15. And on our Dec.30 hunt, there were 4 of us hunting 2 properties and we saw over 60 deer total.
The difference is, with the holidays and being so late, 95% of the hunters were not out.

Maybe a perfect scenario would be a Friday-Saturday-Sunday firearms season the weekend before Thanksgiving and then a Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday 2nd firearms season following Thanksgiving?

As far as overall state rules, this is why I content that another option is for the UP and LP have different rules, tags and dates.
The UP has few deer and few deer hunters, in the overall picture. If statewide rules are to be the thing, then whatever suits the UP must be last on the list, despite feelings of nostagia. Whatever statewide rules are made must favor the LP, because that's where the bulk of the deer and deer hunters are at.

It'd be in Yooper's favor to not ask for, butu DEMAND separate rules, dates and tags for the UP only. At least for early on in the seasons.

We do something like it with turkeys. Why not make deer hunters choose which region they want for their opening few days of firearms season and then open up the whole state for say the 2nd half of firearms season. That way downstate hunters that like the UP experience, but choose not to go there for opener can go later in the season.

But this is just thinking out loud. Nothing like the above ould happen.

However, if MDNR wants to look at ways to lower herd numbers in the LP, then 2 short seasons will do so better than 1 long one.