View Full Version : You never know...
In May I had shoulder surgery. The doctors thought it was going to be a rotatory cuff. It was but the upper bicep tendon was also frayed. It could not be repaired and had to be removed. After months of rehab, I am able to pull about 50#'s on a scale. The trouble is, because of the missing bicep tendon I can't extend my arm and hold ANY weight. Since I don't have a permanent 80% disability my archery days are pretty much over. I'm sitting here looking at thousands of dollars of archery equiptment. I read the Xbow threads and can't believe comments like "If you can't qualify for a disability permit, live with and just find a new hobby." Bow hunting isn't a hobby for me. It's much more then that. I'm bummin. Good luck to all you bow hunters. As you sit in your treestands and ground blinds this season, be thankful for the opportunity because next year you never know....
fasthunter
10-02-2007, 06:32 PM
In May I had shoulder surgery. The doctors thought it was going to be a rotatory cuff. It was but the upper bicep tendon was also frayed. It could not be repaired and had to be removed. After months of rehab, I am able to pull about 50#'s on a scale. The trouble is, because of the missing bicep tendon I can't extend my arm and hold ANY weight. Since I don't have a permanent 80% disability my archery days are pretty much over. I'm sitting here looking at thousands of dollars of archery equiptment. I read the Xbow threads and can't believe comments like "If you can't qualify for a disability permit, live with and just find a new hobby." Bow hunting isn't a hobby for me. It's much more then that. I'm bummin. Good luck to all you bow hunters. As you sit in your treestands and ground blinds this season, be thankful for the opportunity because next year you never know....
Did you try talking to the state about getting a crossbow permit? I would sure hope they would let you. Even if it's just a temp permit.(Don't know the whole law.) I think if you physically can't shoot your bow due to medical reasons you should be able to hunt with a crossbow. If you already tried and they won't let you that's messed up though. I'd be majorly bummin if that was my situation.:(
Backwoods-Savage
10-02-2007, 06:39 PM
I agree with fasthunter on his point: "I think if you physically can't shoot your bow due to medical reasons you should be able to hunt with a crossbow." However, our DNR; don't seem to feel the same way. The crossbow law is one of the dumbest things they have came up with over the years. It should help some people but only makes it frustrating.
Jag, I feel for you. I may very well be in the same situation very soon and am not looking forward to it in the least. As far as that goes, this may be the last year I will be able to hang a treestand. What used to be a pleasant undertaking has become very difficult work. Such is life, I guess.
HUBBHUNTER
10-02-2007, 06:51 PM
Tough luck, it really shouldn't be that way. I see no harm in allowing people with or without a disibility hunt with a cross bow.
Yes, I tried get a crossbow permit. The unbelievable part of the situation is my family doctor and surgeon said they would both sign the necessary paperwork. It was my therapist who wouldn't sign it. Ironically he is a hunter. He says I don't fit the 80% criteria and that "they" really do check. Backwoods, I also look forward to the preperation for the season almost as much as the actual hunt. This year I was hoping for the best and was able to get help in hanging stands. Hopefully by the time you need the help the law makers will have a change of heart and make the process of getting a permit reasonable. I was a long time member of the Mich Bow Hunters. No longer! I fail to understand their reasoning when it comes to crossbows but I abide by the rules. I just think the rules are unreasonable when it comes to disabilities.
NoWake
10-02-2007, 07:18 PM
Really sorry to hear your situation. As heated as the crossbow threads get on this site(or any site) I don't think anyone here is against guys in your situation using a crossbow.
wyldkat49766
10-02-2007, 07:19 PM
Can you still file and fight it if they don't allow you to? It sounds to me like you qualify.
Wyldkat, there really is no appeal process. Like I said the doctors were not the problem. My surgeon went so far as sending me to another therapist for her oppinion. She agreed that even though I couldn't hold any weight when my arm was fully extended it did not fit the 80% disability criteria. I'm certain that they have been warned of the consequence of falsely signing the permit. I know this subject has been beat to death. I guess I was just looking for a little simpathy and I got it. Just needed to talk about it I guess. Thanks for listening.
Swamp Monster
10-02-2007, 07:44 PM
That sucks man!! I feel for ya! I'm not sure how far you are from Ohio, but I would be looking at that as an option, even if I could only get down there maybe a couple weekends a year. I'd rather see ya hunting here but it's beats the alternative! Good luck on your efforts, either with therapy or with the legislature.
Quackkiller
10-02-2007, 08:02 PM
That SUCKS to hear I got a friend who has to get the same surgury done but that just goes to show you how screwed up the state is! Any one should be a loud to use a crossbow Including you I got one and I love it.
Munsterlndr
10-02-2007, 08:13 PM
You don't need no stinkin' crossbow, you just need to learn to adapt your stance a little bit and take longer shots. :yikes:
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc112/Munsterlndr/footbow.jpg
On a more serious note, I feel for you, I'm in a somewhat similar situation. The restrictive nature of the crossbow permit in this State is a travesty.
benster
10-02-2007, 08:34 PM
Jag, that sucks but don't give up. I have a friend going for his right now. He had to have some vertebra fused together and is not supposed to shoot a gun because of the recoil. Is there any way you could have some kind of brace to keep your arm straight to put the pressure on your shoulder and draw with the good arm? I know if it were me I would look at all options. Good luck and don't give up yet.
Knight& Hale makes a product called a Steady-Ready. It attaches to the forearm of your bow arm and has an adjustable bar that rests on your hip. I ordered it and tried it and after weeks of trying to get it to work I sent it back. I have come up with a sling device that craddles a rifle, it works fair and is probably what I'll have to use to support my rifle during gun season. Over the years I have become a bow only hunter but this year I'll attempt to rifle hunt. The shoulder can't take the recoil of my .270 so I will be using a .243 this season. And if none of these things work out I'll be hunting with a camera. Any port in the storm. I have sent more letters then I can count to my representitves and the DNR hoping that they could come up with a solution to the 80% rule. I have received a few responses but none that will help unless the rules are changed. I may be eating digital venison at the end of this season.
benster
10-02-2007, 10:14 PM
JAG, have you seen the draw-loc? I don't know if it is legal here but take a look. drawloc.com
benster
10-02-2007, 10:32 PM
JAG, have you seen the draw-loc? I don't know if it is legal here but take a look. drawloc.com
Look up "modified bow permit" from the DNR, it looks like it might be another option?
JAG, have you seen the draw-loc? I don't know if it is legal here but take a look. drawloc.com
I have seen the draw-loc. My problem isn't drawing the bow. After the bicep tendon was removed I can't hold ANY weight with my arm fully extended. If I try to just hold my bow out at arms length undrawn, I can't extend it. It has nothing to do with the draw weight of the bow. I can't hold a 2# barbell out straight unsupported. Even if I were to use a crossbow, the bow would have to be supported. I have full range of motion with the arm as long as there is nothing in my hand.
benster
10-02-2007, 10:44 PM
What about switching hands? I have seen this draw-loc used by a guy that only had one arm and released the arrow with his mouth. I'm just trying to help, good luck with whatever you try.
fasthunter
10-02-2007, 11:07 PM
Just so ya know Jag I think it's screwed up that the state law won't currently let you hunt with a crossbow in your situation. Hopefully they modify that law so that people in your same situation can still hunt during bowseason. I did kind of like what the one guy earlier said though. Maybe checking into Ohio just for now might not be that bad of an idea. :)
Pinefarm
10-02-2007, 11:49 PM
If it was me? Why hope for others to modify the rule for you? Fight to modify it yourself!
File a complaint with the American Association of People With Disabilities...
http://www.aapd.com/docs/complaints.php
Contact the Michigan Disability Rights Coalition (MDRC)
http://www.copower.org/mdrc/MDRC.htm
Contact the Michigan disabled group Michigan Partners for Freedom. A main mission statement is "Being free to do the things that interest you."
http://www.mifreedom.org/home.html
See if any of them can worry the NRC with an embarrassing PR or a lawsuit.
And if that didn't work, I'd hire my own disabilities lawyer, work up a strategy with the lawyer, go huntin' then sue the state for violating the Americans With Disabilities Act. But that's just what I'd do. No need to advocate that to others.
I think finding out if it's really the state government that is violating the law is worth the trouble.
The provision that would warrant a suit is here...
ADA Title II: State and Local Government Activities
Title II covers all activities of State and local governments regardless of the government entity's size or receipt of Federal funding. Title II requires that State and local governments give people with disabilities an equal opportunity to benefit from all of their programs, services, and activities (e.g. public education, employment, transportation, recreation, health care, social services, courts, voting, and town meetings).
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/cguide.htm#anchor66477
boehr
10-03-2007, 12:07 AM
Don't you think stuff like that has already been looked at very closely Bob? I do. I agree it is a bummer but there has to be some type of limits for that regulation and those are what exists.
The DNR Law Division wanted to allow crossbows and I could probably do a search and find some of those posts but got some much opposition from individuals and groups..........if it where soely up to me a crossbow would be a legal method for any deer but I'm sure there are many that is glad it's not up to me.:)
HunterHads
10-03-2007, 12:18 AM
if you can draw it back but just not hold it maybe you could try a recurve????
My doctor went to bat for me. He is an avid hunter. He has written letters to the DNR and the NRC. He never received a response from either. It's just not in the cards. If it were up to the doctors I would be hunting this bow season. It just seems odd to me that it's not the doctors but the physical therapists that have the final say. It doesn't make much sense to me that the doctors opinion is meaningless. For the first time in 18 years I missed the Michigan bow opener. If the laws don't change, I will not be able to bow hunt again in Michigan. For those of you that are unable to bowhunt for disablity reasons, don't blame the law makers, blame our fellow archers. The Michigan Bow Hunters with their 20,000 or so members are responsible for the crossbow disablity laws. They speak for the 350,000 bow hunters in our state.
Fix_F16
10-03-2007, 06:24 AM
What about shooting off-handed from now on? I know it would be a radical change but if it was the difference between having to give up on archery or continue on, it may be an option. I'm not sure if your surgery arm would also have a problem drawing back, but maybe it's worth a shot.:confused:
Final Cast
10-03-2007, 06:58 AM
JAG,
It’s a shame that a few selfish sportsmen, and I use that word loosely, have to put up such a stink when it comes to crossbow laws that you and others in you boat can’t legally hunt during bow season. You don’t need to have 80% disability to be unable to shoot a bow. I feel for you man. I sincerely hope the law is changed so everyone will have the ability to hunt the archery season. I personally think if someone were to have their therapist sign a document stating that a patient can’t pull back and hold a bow, that should be enough to get the crossbow permit. Good luck.
Pinefarm
10-03-2007, 09:28 AM
Ray, I'm sure it has, but that still doesn't mean the state is 100% correct. Didn't the NRC recently have a bobcat decision reversed in court, since it violated the law?
Recall this headline...
STATE LOSES BOBCAT SUIT
The Ingham County Circuit Court ruled Friday that the state’s Natural Resources Commission and its Department of Natural Resources broke the law when they opened Michigan’s Lower Peninsula to bobcat trapping in 2004.
I'm not saying I'd win in that case, however, I'd think that if a case was presented in the right manner, a court may order the state to re-write and/or clarify the rule so it's more uniform.
I don't think anyone thinks that this rule is very cut and dry. It's so subjective and all over the place, that a court may rule that "if you are unable to reasonably pull any "conventional" bow, then a permit can be issued". Dunno. All I'm saying is, if it was me, I'd fight it until I lost on every avenue I pursued, in the hopes of fairness and justice. IMHO
Again, I'm not saying others should stick their neck out.
Pinefarm, thanks for the advice. I haven't given up entirely, just for this season. The surgeon that worked on my shoulder is also getting involved. He is a hunter and I'm about his 4th patient that has run into the same road block. He said he has some friends "in high places" that may be able to help. I doubt it but you never can tell. I will look into the information you gave me. Like I said before I didn't start this thread to beat the subject to death AGAIN. I just thought it would help me get it off my chest. Thanks all for your understanding.....Jim
NoWake
10-04-2007, 05:08 PM
Please keep us posted on any prgoress you have. Hopefully you'll get somewhere.
swoosh
10-04-2007, 05:16 PM
Knight& Hale makes a product called a Steady-Ready. It attaches to the forearm of your bow arm and has an adjustable bar that rests on your hip. I ordered it and tried it and after weeks of trying to get it to work I sent it back. I have come up with a sling device that craddles a rifle, it works fair and is probably what I'll have to use to support my rifle during gun season. Over the years I have become a bow only hunter but this year I'll attempt to rifle hunt. The shoulder can't take the recoil of my .270 so I will be using a .243 this season. And if none of these things work out I'll be hunting with a camera. Any port in the storm. I have sent more letters then I can count to my representitves and the DNR hoping that they could come up with a solution to the 80% rule. I have received a few responses but none that will help unless the rules are changed. I may be eating digital venison at the end of this season.
can you shoot LH? I will even send a bow your way for practice
ERGOMAN
10-04-2007, 08:15 PM
your PT wont sign because there is the off chance that you'll try to get full disability and they will have to give a deposition for the hearing, or they think thier smarter than the Doctors. PT's are several steps below Doctors when it comes to medical decisions, they give opinions, the Dr.s write the scripts. You have a GP and a surgeon that are in your camp, take the letters they wrote on your behalf, go to a privately owned PT clinic, (not directly affiliated with a hospital) with your letters and pay for a consultation with the PT. If they state they wont sign the letter, question thier authority/opinion in relation to the surgeons opinion and tell them the surgeon will be calling to discuss why they feel they are more qualified than the surgeon in this matter. Repeat until you get the signiture, DO NOT TELL THEM YOU HAVE BEEN DENIED BY OTHER PT'S. Just go to the appointment, give them the letters, let them do a cursary physical exam, write the check. Private clinics are much more logical and interested in new Dr. relationships than the ego maniacs that work in hospital clinics. Ive worked with lots of clinics, therapists and Doctors over the years. Your lucky youve got the Docs on your side, good luck.
michigandeerslayer
10-04-2007, 08:38 PM
Jag Im sending you a pm
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.