QDM Forum

[bwiltse]

I've been away from home and want to thank Aspen Hill Adventures for sharing her quality buck post with us.

I would like to also comment after reading through the posts that most were fine and fell within the spirit of learning about QDM, and as long as I'm the moderator, that's what this forum will be about.

And for those who are upset about QDMers voicing their opinions too strongly, I will admit this happens on occasion, but would also like to point out that those who don't have anything constructive to say that perhaps they would be better off spending their time elsewhere. And this doesn't mean we can't actively participate on this forum and Agree to Disagree!
Their will always be pros and cons on most subjects, and we can all learn in a constructive manner.

[Steve]

I agree 100%.

[Neal]

I agree 100%........This was my favorite forum before the QDM proposals were issued. It was a place for people with simular interests and beliefs to share ideas and help eachother......now if someone shares their sucess story there is always someone ready to jump them.............Moderate this forum as you see fit, bwiltse.

Neal

[Steve]

Clay if someone wants to manage their property for QDM it doesn't matter what everyone else thinks.

[Neal]

Hey guys~ How about a Anti-QDM forum.........where all those guys can go to complain about us, while we would still have a productive, educational forum at the Pro-QDM site. ;)

Neal

[Neal]

I guess I would just like a forum where we who believe, can talk about it with out someone jumping in and telling us we are wrong. Both side have beat this thing to death....there has not been one question not asked or one answer not answered.....we are just going around in a circle and in my opinion are losing a great resource.........


You know I love a good debate and encourage new info and ideas, but unless someone has something new to add. lets go our own ways and get back to life.

Neal

[Neal]

First I was kinda joking about dividing the forum.......it may not have come across that way.......but thats why I put the wink sing. I think there should be arguments in appropriate post........If a guy post something about his personal success, we don't need someone jumping in and telling his "you can't eat the antlers", BTW~ the next person that says that is going to get an ear full from this old Boy Scout..........LOL:D

I don't want to stop honest debate, that would be closed minded......but I ask that all respect eachothers posts.

Neal

P.S. Got the PM.....Cool

[Chuck]

Is there a way to move all the QDm stuff from the whitetail forum to here?

It would be nice to have that section about deer hunting again and not about farming.:)

I have to admit that the reason I came to this site was the whitetail section, Becouse of that I have looked at alot of other forums too. Now it seems I only come to this site when I want to get my blood pressure risen.:(

[Belbriette]

In another active thread "Don't shoot that spike" H2OFOWL'ER introduced a most good and interesting post.

Of course, for practical reasons, I am not directly concerned in this MI QDM Forum, that is to say wildlife management in MI cannot have any impact on my Life, except the fact that I strongly believe a good wildlife perpetuation is a World wide problem which will become more and more a most serious one : better be concerned about it before it is too late, or almost too late, for the generations to come !!!

Since I entered this Forum, and if I suppose I do not meet any problems reading the posts (except slang), together with H2OFOWL'ER, I think my practical detachment, synonymous of the absence of any emotional selfish involvement, allows me to say :

- I have never seen any QDMers write " You MUST do this".
- I have read them about the way Nature intended things to be, I have read them putting forwards facts and research data, not easily available to many, in order to educate their fellow hunters and to drive them to make their own minds + in order to contribute to a change in what I feel like being obsolete hunting regulations.
In this respect, the process of new law making being what it is, in retrospect, it seems evident to me , new laws mostly result of problems whose solutions have been long overdued : "Necessity becomes Law" : hence in good democracy, nothing wrong in trying to speed up the process !
- Of course, very personal attacks from opponents have sometimes driven to regrettable answers : most of the times, if not every time, the initial unfair attack was not that of a QDMer.

- As "answers" QDMers mostly got :

- "Don't tell me what I should do" , "I let you live your Life, let me live mine ",
- "Show me it works".

To this attitude which is almost as frequent in my Country than in yours, I will answer :

- When one is confronted with a number of largely irrefutable arguments backing a thesis, it is certainly not a democratic behavior, to displace the problem on any other grounds to try to disqualify somebody who had the best objective and reasonable reasons to write what he did.
- Mother Nature has shown us from immemorial times the way Nature should be ... Who is anyone to put this in question ???
- For many different reasons, I praise Liberty more than anything else, however "LIBERTY" does not mean licentiouness against the unwritten Laws of Nature or of Laws of Morality, on the contrary LIBERTY goes along with a maximum RESPONSIBILITY for the Present and for the FUTURE .

Jack. ;)

[Belbriette]

I have been very sorry three of my last posts closed three different threads and came to think about it : going back to my posts I became aware that, due to the fact I had been personally and severely attacked on highly questionable grounds, I had been unfair :
In this Forum appear not only convinced QDMers and blind, highly biased opponents, but also hunters keenly interested in learning about their preys and in the QDM approach : to them I have to express my most sincere regrets and beg for their understanding.
Their interest in this Forum proves they are highly motivated hunters and free Men conscious the great Liberty they enjoy does not go without a similar great Responsibility : Rights and Duties are inseparable, most likely more so here than elsewhere !!!

Jack. ;)

[H2OFowl'er]

SFK,

You ask to show you that QDM works. Twice I have asked what exactly you mean by it works? Why have you not answered? I am more than willing to try and explain my side of the QDM story, and have on ocassion here. It seems everytime I post a success story, or bring up different ideas about QDM nobody has any kind of response?

Just wondering why...

[MGV]

All that the QDM is doing is artifically holding the deer population. Farming the land for deer and harvesting them as they feel fit. Sounds like cattle to me.

[Oct.1]

Farming the land for deer and harvesting them as they feel fit. Sounds like cattle to me.

I would normally respond by saying, " or a unfenced deer ranch" but considering some would like to keep this as a QDM positive forum I won't respond by saying that.:D

[beer and nuts]

Man, some of you guys need to lighten up or better yet stay off the computer for a couple weeks.

There is alot of good points on here and some guys have a hard time accepting them whether its pro or anti QDM. There is a solution but the problem is some of these hard core pro and anti QDM people will never come to the middle and agree with each other. And thats fine ya just have to accept the way some people are and quit responding to them-they will get the point soooner or later.

[kdrew]

If anyone is interested I know of 2 great books by John H. Williams . They are the Deer Hunter's Field Guide and the Deer Watcher's Field Guide. In both there are chapters explaining QDM. You can get them at www.michigan-sportsman.com/books.htm I know they helped me to understand QDM better.

Thanks.

[farmlegend]

kdrew, you are quite correct, those are both superb books. The Deer Hunter's Field Guide was most recently revised a few years ago, and much of the QDM info was added in that edition.

Mr. Williams was onto the perils of traditional deer management, and how it cheats hunters out of the enjoyment of hunting a balanced, natural deer herd, before it was cool.

Both books are entertaining and educational. Good coverage of deer habits, dietary preferences, hunting strategy, poaching, baiting, habitat, biology, etc.

[bwiltse]

Splitshot, a sticky sounds describing QDM sounds like a good idea and I'll have to find out how to do it.

I probably should have been more clear in defining constructive comments but I was merely trying to defuse some of the comments here that have nothing to do with any form of deer management and little or nothing to do with deer hunting.

[MGV]

Boy SFk i am with you. You almost feel like daggers are being thrown when you voice a different opinion. I am with you i will stay out of the discussions for a while. I will watch and learn to see what is discussed.

[H2OFowl'er]

The reason why some people may be throwing daggers (I don’t think it is right, but see why some would) is simply because the people that don’t agree with QDM ask to show them that it works. Well many people here have spent a lot of time showing examples of where it works, how it works, and try to explain that it is sound biological reasoning behind it. If you were to do a search on this site, you will find all kinds of information as well as sound data. Another thing is that the people that don’t support QDM (yet, I hope) will read this stuff and still not believe it. That is fine, that is their choice, but than don’t come back and say that you need to see proof, because it is all there. Also, many pro QDMer's have asked the non-supporters to explain how it is not sound biological reasoning, or to show an instance that QDM does not work and there has yet to be one response (at least I have not seen any??). And please remember, before you can agree with QDM you have to agree that their needs to be a change with the way the deer herd is managed. If you feel that the deer herd is fine, healthy and being managed well, then you will never agree with QDM.....

[boehr]

I can understand Splitshot and SFK's points which is why I have not been more involved in this topic. The one time I did, basically saying no to mandatory and yes to education, some wanted to attempt to slam me too. I even joined and became a member of QDMA to learn more about the organization and purpose. Even the organization admitts that QDM is not for everyone and it promotes education.

I believe there is a lot of middle ground where many from each side can come together but the extreme ends slam each other and cause lines in the sand that each side refuses to cross after the slamming. That is unfortunate.

[bwiltse]

I agree with Boehr that there is a lot of middle ground. And I believe the MDNRs current deer management program, objectives & goals are much closer to QDM than the old traditional deer management. No matter what, the deer herd, weather and habitat conditions are continually changing, which require adjustments to your management program.

[boehr]

I also agree with bwiltse that the current MDNR's management are and have been changing slowly and I also believe they will continue to change SLOWLY.

But with that comes education to show and change very long standing opinions and options. This will get, hopefully and most importantly, what is best for the herd and future generations of hunters and not what we can force feed overnight to hunters tomorrow.

[Buckacc]

I started hunting since 1982. I killed alot of deer in
years since, mostly 1-1/2yr old deer. Some years ago
I started to get bored with shooting the first deer that
came by. It became to easy to kill a deer each year,
I needed a challenge. So I decide to pass up the small
deer and wait for a mature deer. It seemed like every
deer I passed up, would be shot by a neighbor. About
4yrs back I decided to figure out ways to keep deer
on my land and improve the average age of the deer
on my land. So I learned as much as I could about
managing land for deer. I spent all winter cutting trees
to make safe areas for the deer. In the spring I planted
food plots. I also made up rules for my land, the rack
had to be ear width or better and the does needed to
mature to shoot. The first year we did not see an
improvement and my hunting buddy was mad at me
for making him pass up the little bucks he said I was nuts
we both went deerless. He told me he was going to try
to find somewhere else to hunt. I didn't give up ,
after hunting season I worked on improving my deer
hunting land again. By fall I had seen two mature bucks
and a lot of other bucks & does. That hunting season my
friend couldn't find a place to hunt , so he hunted with
me on my land. That year we both took the biggest Bucks
of our lifes. Since then we have had excellent hunting
on the land. After hunting season it is not unusual to see
6-8 bucks and 10- 15 does.
The following summer my buddy bought land and does the same thing on his land. This year I joined QDMA and have
been learning even more.
My buddy and I are sold on managing for deer.

[D.K.sxs]

I understand what Qdm is and have kind of done my own version for the last 10 years. I have always tried to take 1 doe 1 buck and have been pretty sucesfull at it. But I'll keep this short I live in Montcalm county and don't like the idea of having to hunt a certain way if I don't choose to. I choose to do 95% of my hunting with a bow, and follow the rules. I don,t expect the next guy to have to choose my way of hunting or try to make him. I think whether I choose to practice Qdm On my property or not should be my choice as well as yours on your property , not mandated to me, or you................
I would appreciate other comments .

[bwiltse]

D.K.sxs, I'm not familiar with Montcalm County but can assure you that there will be no special regs unless a significant majority of landowners and hunters want them. The state QDM procedure requires a minimum of 66% in favor with not sures counting as a no.

Another thing to keep in mind is that there are all sorts of regs that we hunters have little say in, so we really can't necessarily hunt the way we'd like to under current statewide regs.

[Belbriette]

:)

D.K.sxs :

You wrote you would appreciate other comments : here are mine, for whatever they could be worth.

I do not know how large your property is, nor what what is the minimum area needed to manage efficiently a SPECIFIC deer HERD = a specific deer population.

You kill one doe and a buck every year, which is far better for the sex ratio than I learned generally occur, and you have to be congratulated on this.

However, a good management implies much more than that :

- One cannot manage a small property, one must think in terms
of a deer POPULATION minimum range.
- If this minimum range is not granted, no matter what you do,
on your property, the way you hunt will necessarily have no
significant impact at the absolutely needed deer population
level.
- I understood DMUs are the area units which should be
managed to get positive results. Are they what they should be,
from a purely deer standpoint, I do not know.
- Way beyond a balanced harvest of buck / doe every year, in
order to reach a well structured significant POPULATION, one
must correct any previous imbalance in density, in the sex
ratio, and also do his best to reach a good male population
structure by classes of age, over the minimum deer range
needed .

Just as you, I am very attached to the basic principles bound to
the use of private property, however, one must accept the
fact these have nothing to do with the way deer live ...
Generally, a good wildlife management necessarily transcend human laws dealing with the usual privileges of being the owner of a property.

Jack. :) ;)