Laws right or wrong

[Kingfisher]

Hi guys , This post is to defend a statement I made in the why all the killing post. My statement was and I quote(just because it is law doesnt make it right) unquote. I take you back to the 1950's .lake Michigan Perch fishing was one of the wonders of the world. A guy could fill a 5 gallon bucket every day and never see the end. Comercial fishing for perch wiped that fishery out. It was legal but was it right? I think not. To remedy the situation comercial fishing was stopped. The problem was there was no limit placed on perch for sport fishing. It took about 12 years for the big females to return and another 5 or 6 years and wala, some guy using his lowerance found perch off South haven. With no limit in place the fishery was pounded back into the ground in just a couple years. It was legal was it right? I think not. There were than a series of limit reductions 100, 50 and the current 35 per day. With the 100 and 50 limits the numbers still were dropping. Still law but still not right.Im not sure if the numbers have stopped falling yet and I support another limit reduction to 25 per day. Until we have stablized the fishery we dont have the right law. There is another way and that is to limit our own catches to enough for a couple meals. I watch the same guys pound and pound and pound 35 a day some fish more than one port per day breaking the same law over and over . I just cant figure this behavior out. What happened to the 10 million walleyes that were planted in west Michigan? I whitnessed the carnage for two years straight as hundreds of egg laden females were slaughtered every evening. They were not breaking the law with 5 walleyes but was it right? I dont think so. We have a kill mentality here in my state. I have been as guilty as the worst and dont consider myself to be any better than anyone but I have woke up to the fact that we need to start being a little less selfish or there will be nothing worth saving for our kids. I laugh when I read about Game managment. We dont need game managment we need people management. I ask anyone reading this post to use your head when taking fish from a lake or river. Harvest wisely and dont take more than you can use. Leave a few for the guys who only can get out once in a while. I leave you with the best example of a law that is not right. Indians acting as an independent nation not subject to our courts comercial fishing our waters. we have come full circle. It is legal but is it right ? I think not , Kingfisher

[Big Frank 25]

"Better to light a candle, than to curse the darkness."

Old Chinese proverb.

[jimbos43]

How did the people perch fishing within the rules know what they were doing wasn't right?
As long as they were following the rules in effect at the time as far as they were concerned they were not being unethical.

It's the DNR then that's slow on the rule changes, which have to be changed before a fishery goes into the tank.

[Kingfisher]

Howdy Jim, the D.N.R. always seems to get stuck cleaning up the mess. I dont think most of the guys were unethical but on my side of the lake there are many who should be run out on a rail. Selling to local resteraunts and the like. We are suffering an attack from spiney water fleas, Round Gobies and who knows what else will invade the perch's territories. I was out sunday for the first time this year and we got 15 with only three jumbos. the guy next to us was bragging about getting over 300 the past week. I asked him if he was doing any good and he replied they are not biting well today. One look at my graph told me they were gone. We watch the perch hole off White Lake every day from a point on shore. The man I work for has a telescope set on this spot. 60 ft. deep marrow bottom humps and gravel surrounded by sand. When the Jumbos come in to spawn there catch rate is staggering. What I find interesting is how often certain guys keep pounding the spot. Our D.N.R. cant know when to apply the right laws until the fishery is in trouble. I hear it all the time at the local bait shop. Where did all the perch go we were slaughterin them last week? I want to yell, because you ate them you moron. But I just shake my head and remember when I was doing the same thing to the Brook trout. I was a fish killing machine as a kid and finally 5 yrs ago I bought 100 Brookies from a trout farm and let them go in a creek that I killed. I am happy to say they did well and are spawning every fall and there are some nice ones to catch for the fryer. We only take a limit per year now and we are enjoying a nice little trout stream . Needless to say we dont tell anyone else where it is. Most folks dont know when it is time to quit. That is why I am posting these articles. I hope to show that limiting our killing will stretch our resources and leave enough good fishing to go around. I think our guys in green do as well as the circomstances allow them to and are watching the catch rates on all the major waters. As a Charter boat I have all this info at my fingertips and am required to turn in a monthly catch report. I preach selective Harvest because most experts say it is the most common sense approach to solving the problems we face today with everything from over kill to stunting. I like to eat fish and want to keep eating them. But alas Im getting fat,so maybe ill only have 3 perch fillets for supper. Kingfisher

[jimbos43]

I wonder why the crash of perch in Lake Michigan, and a boom in perch in Lake Erie? Both lakes must have the same foreign invaders? Plus Erie is nets galore at the international boundry with Canada, and has been for years.

[Mike Thomas]

Kingfisher makes some very good points. In reality, Michigan's (as well as many other states) daily creel limits are not biologically based, but rather they are social regulations that attempt to provide some level of equity in the harvest by spreading it around among more anglers. Biologically, the current creel limits do very little to limit harvest. Consider the carnage that would occur IF all the bass anglers who went out on Lake St. Clair to fish this summer, each caught and kept their limit of bass - it would be perfectly legal, but it would likely devastate the bass population in the lake. Or think about all the muskie anglers, each keeping one muskie (over 42") every trip out on the lake...would there be even half the population left at the end of the year?

One big problem with creel limits is that typically (and fortunately) only a small fraction of all the anglers ever reach the daily limit on their fishing trips (for whatever species you want to consider), so to really affect how many fish total are harvested, the creel limits have to be reduced considerably from their current levels. So for example, reducing the walleye creel limit from 5 fish in inland lakes in Michigan to 4 fish, has very little effect. To reduce harvest much at all, the limit has to be lowered to 3, or even 2.

[treeman]

kingfisher--I know that you read my post about how to handle a musky so I know that you know what my position is. Let me be the devils advocate for a second. I am not sure that there is really enough information here to make a judgement. It seems odd to me that someone might possibly go out and hit several big fish without without having caught alot of smaller ones also. It seems this person must be an accomplished fisherman. It is possible that the 3 master angler fish are only 3 of 300 and that he practices catch and release 99% of the time?

[TBone]

I wondered the same thing. I don't know who Kingfisher is talking about, but this is what I noticed about one of the individuals:

They have 3 Muskies in the catch and keep. There are two more muskies entered in by what I assume are other family members. It is a very distinctive last name. 5 muskies in the catch and keep category. 0 fish in the catch and release category.

It's legal, but I don't have to respect it.
T

[treeman]

Legality should not be a measure of right and wrong. I am sure it would be perfectly legal for you to take a baseball bat and punch holes in the drywall of your living room, but it doesn't make sense to do that. It just doesn't make sense to keep killing these magnificent animals in order to feed ones ego.

We must accept that there will always be people in this world that for whatever reason do things that don't make sense. The best that we can do is to try to lead by example, try to educate others, and pass on our philosophy.

We must also remember that life is two edged sword. We are all under attack by organizations such as P.E.T.A. who do not share our philosophy. Does that automatically make them right and us wrong?

We must follow our conscience. All I really know is that I sleep well at night.

[jimbos43]

Treeman,,,,all I have time to say right now is a polite...Bulls**t!!!

Spare me the high and mighty "my conscience" i'm better then you, I throw back fish baloney.

Hope you have a good holiday. :)

[ahartz]

I did the same research, T-bone. I concur with your findings. You won't find my name arranged in the records like that. Ok now do we form a posse and go "get them". KIDDING of course. All of the guys have points worthy of consideration but this debate has reached its zenith and it is time for it to.........

[treeman]

jimbos43- You misunderstood my point. As a matter of fact you got it exactly backwards. My point is that we must each follow our own beliefs. My point is that if you believe that it is OK to keep every fish you catch then you should follow your own beliefs and do that. If we both follow our own beliefs, regardless as to whether those beliefs are the same or not, that does not make me better than you, it makes us the same. We are both firm in our convictions. I was preaching tolerance.

[Jackster1]

>>As long as they were following the rules in effect at the time as far as they were concerned they were not being unethical.<<

It's legal to swear on T.V. now, that doesn't make it ethical.

[trout]

Very interesting points made here.
I for one try to be conservative in harvesting only what I feel I can eat or use.
I would never keep a Musky "IF" it were not Dead.
Musky eat alot of rough fish which are loaded with toxins!
Then if it were dead I think I'd try to donate it to a worthy cause, i.e. Museum or a school for education purposes.
Records mean nothing to me personally.
Give me a few good bites and let me catch a few fish to eat and I am happy.
Catching 300 of any fish to eat in a week every week is not my personal style and I doubt I could do that anyhow.
Conservation means stocking, preserving habitat and acting in a sportsman like manner these days "IF" we want our future hunters and fishermen to have the same chance we do.
I have three fish of different species in my freezer right now.
Really a low impact, I think.
Education is the key to the future of good fishing, along with Active sportspeople providing habitat and brood stocks where needed.
Too many things in our waters and woods were not given the proper help by mankind, as Modern Sportsmen we can change that and dispell the "BAD GUY" image we get all to often.
The word Conservationist needs to come to mind when we talk of hunting and fishing, as we are the first real conservationist in North America.

[Firetiger]

Hey you guys ever hear of Comericial Poachers, where do you think all those fish in the chicago's fine eaterys came from,, Don't blame the DNR for declining fisherys, they do the fish surveys and make recomendations and if it need adjusting they adjust, if you want to bitch about something how about the Salmon weir's ,, It pisses me off to no end that every trout that swims up river is handled every year,, and not to metion that theirs a company that sell fish loaded with toxins like there farm raised,,now this is something we can change, if you like to bitch ,, thats cool if you really want to do someting, at least contact your State Rep and tell them what you feel,,,

[Kingfisher]

Hi Guys, as always there are several sides to every point. I think that my point was really well taken. Just because it is legal doesnt make it right. I dont know about Erie perch populations just what is in front of me. We have had to keep dropping limits but the numbers keep going down. As I have said about Lake St. Claire. Every year the number of kept fish keeps climbing back up. There are twice as many unreported kept fish and dont forget the Canadians and out of staters who are taking them home. St Claire is as good as it has ever been right now. I hope we dont see the next leveling out of the eco system where the number of fish over 42" is few to none like it used to be. Remember the big fish of today are 20 years old. They were there before the 42" law . when the 50"s are gone the 48 and 49's will be the trophys then the 45s and so on. It happens everywhere else it will happen here as well. For every 2 releases there are one kept . ask your self this how many were caught and released only to be kept by the next guy. It kind of shortens the list eh? I hope we all look at our waters withmore respect for the fish we have to work with. We take fish where we should and release the rest. There are thousands or food lakes with smaller sized eating fish where harvest is a good thing. I think this post has run its course. Thank you for being civil and making this topic a good one. Kingfisher