Why all the killing?

[Kingfisher]

Hi Guys, I downloaded the entire D.N.R. records of master angler awards for the Great lakes Musky,Northern Musky ,Tiger Musky and the Northern Pike. I was shocked to see a pattern that made me want shake my head. I will not mention this guys name but will tell you he fishes Lake St. Claire. Several years ago He killed a 54.75" musky nearly 40 lbs. I do not think that was a bad thing. I have always felt that if you are going to kill a musky at least wait till it has lived its life. What followed is what ticks me off . After killing this trophy he then proceeded to kill a 52", a 48" and a 47" Musky all from St. Claire. Why kill a lesser fish than the one hanging on your wall????? I fail to see the sense or any reason other than gluttony or bloodlust. This guy has submitted all these fish for master angler awards. He should get the master butcher award and be shamed by all Musky fisherman around the country. What really stinks is he was in his legal rights .You can find him in the records at The D.N.R. web site. Sorry for the venting but this guy makes me sick. Kingfisher

[Kevin]

How many musky was he legally allowed to kill?

[jpollman]

Amos,
He's allowed to take ONE Muskie per day legally.
I guess he could take one every day of the season and kill it and still be within the law. Let's hope he doesn't !

[jimbos43]

Maybe you should contact the N.R.C. to express your dissatisfaction in the one musky per day rule. Instead of knocking someone who is doing nothing illegal.

I have had it with all of the judgements on others who have broken no laws.:mad:

[The Whale]

I'll second that one jimbos43 !
Perhaps a few self-righteous individuals should take note of your post.


Whale :rolleyes: :cool:

[jimbos43]

Would I keep a musky a day? Nope, for what? I'm not going to eat one, and I can't afford to get one mounted everyday. But if I wanted to, it certainly would be within my rights to do so.

[jpollman]

I'll have to agree with Jimbos too.
I hope that I didn't come accross as flaming this guy. I didn't mean to if I did.

I personally practice C&R. But that's my choice. I have NOTHING to say to ANYBODY who catches fish within the legal limit. I may not like somebody going out and killing a limit of fish every day "Just because they can". But if they aren't exceeding the limit, there really isn't anything I can do about it. The ONLY thing I could do in that case would be to try to educate the person and try to get them to see that killing fish "just because they can" and not using them is pointless. It looks like this might turn into another one of those threads but I hope not. I'd have to say that someone who kills a limit of fish every time they go out is not so bad if they use the catch. I'd hate to see it thrown away and go unused. When you really think about it, how many fishermen do you know that can "limit out" EVERY time they go fishing ? I'd venture to say there arent many in that situation.

I hope that cooler heads will prevail and this thread stays civil and on-point. Another thing to think about concerning the daily limit is that it really is a "posession limit" isn't it ? I know this has been discussed many times here before. If there's a five fish posession limit and you take home five fish. TECHNICALLY, you can't catch anymore until you've consumed at least one of the fish from the freezer. I know this is gonna open up a whole new can of worms and I doubt that the DNR is gonna check every fishermen's freezer to see if he's exceeding his limit. Just because there's a 5 fish per day limit doesn't mean you could stock your freezer with 150 walleye per month. :)

Now get out there and catch some fish ! :)

[Kingfisher]

Hi Guys, Its the the why?? that gets me to even post. Why does one feel the need to kill three smaller fish than the first and biggest of the four. There are hundreds of guys who would love to land one over 50" and are denied because of this sensless killing. You noticed I did not slam his first kill or killing one at all. It was the follow up that was sensless. This man knows full well the impact of his doings so educating him does not do any good. If you dont think Im right in bringing this topic to the table than go to the D.N.R. master angler section and veiw the catch and keep pages from Lake St. Claire and than tell us there is not a problem. All the hard work done by the Clubs and D.N.R. is being whacked and stacked like the deer herd. I got nothing against any one who puts a trophy on his wall but to follow it up with the killing of three potential trophies after the fact is gluttony. Just because it is legal doesnt make it right. I feel the same way about guys who pound good Brook trout streams untill there are no legal fish left or take limits of 28" egg laden Walleyes day after day after day. What makes me sick is there is not a thing anyone can do but speak out. I am speaking out because someone has to. I am sorry if this subject steps on any toes but it is long over due. There was a show on In Fisherman about selective harvest. I watched it and was saddened by the fact that this state still lives in the dark ages on game managment. Things could be so much better here for us and our up and coming kids who would also like to fish for 50" Muskies. Lets use our heads and limit our catches to what we eat and be resonable on what we mount. Let us save a few for the kids and the guys who would love a chance to land just one . Kingfisher

[jimbos43]

"Just because it is legal doesnt make it right"

The DNR disagrees with ya. I guess with the way the muskie population has exploded in the pond, the DNR must have some known facts to base the rule upon.

[Kingfisher]

Jimbo, we have been down this road before you and me. I remember you from 2000 . The only way to get laws changed is to speak out. When enough people are aware, things get fixed. We never would have got the 42" limit if someone had not spoke out. It is time to move it up again Jimbo, maybe to 50" . Most of us would support this and both clubs are working with the D.N.R for the betterment of the fishery. I am not a catch and release fanatic but I am sensible. If you have not been to the master angler catch and keep record than you should go look for your self. It might open your eyes. I think the D.N.R.has done a fine job with the regulations and am happy to see the increased stocking and special regulations on Thornapple and the other Brood stock lakes. The pond would put out a state record with the right regulations. It is really a shame that a little puddle like Thornapple holds the state record followed by another little puddle like Long lake. The regulations speak for themselves. That is what I mean when I say just because it is legal doesnt make it right. It could be world class. It could be the best in the world. But some guy has to prove his manhood by killing a 48" fish when he has a 54 on his wall. He should be ashamed of himself. I would be. My opinion is not mine alone but is shared by most of the members of Michigan Musky Hunters and the Musky alliance. Most Musky fishermen are more radical than I . Most support complete catch and release. I do not. I support selective harvest used with comon sense. Is it too much to ask for a little restraint? Why do we have to attach laws to protect the resources? Could it be because we want all we can get instead of what we need? Who cares about the next guy who fishes here I got mine. Is that the way we are? I hope not , Kingfisher

[jimbobway]

Maybe the guys a muskie nut , who catches 10 a day ,but some don't make it for C&R,he doesn't waste the Master Angler Award. Maybe he should try for walleyes.

[Firetiger]

Defining what a trophy is has to be a personal thing, the first buck I ever took with a bow was a spike, and I felt like the king of the jungle after a clean kill.

Kingfisher, if the ponds population can support a kill a day each, why would you begrudge the guy from taking a few. Who knows maybe the fish were injured during capture and the guy was making the best of the situation.

I handline for wallyeyes a lot and I pick up muskys every so often, and unless there injured, I release all of them. And I'am here to tell ya, I really don't even want them in the boat, If I can, I just take pliers and get my rapala back. I can see why you would want to release "trophy fish" for another day, but cut the guy some slack, he's probably very proud of his success and the MiDNR picks up some good growth data ...

[ESOX]

Oh boy, here we go. My heart tells me I agree 100% with Kingfisher. My brain keeps interfering in what is to me, a somewhat emotional issue. Yes, what he is doing is perfectly legal. Perhaps the laws need to be changed. Is what he doing wise? I don't think so. It really bugs me everytime I see people dance around the launch with a dead 15 year old fish that has great sport value and no food value. Composite mounts look better and last longer anyhow (IMHO).

[Robert W. McCoy Jr]

I Catch and release all sport fish. Except the one's I plan to mount which has been Two in the last ten years. If I wan't a mess of fish to eat I'll go catch a bunch of Pan fish..
I'm not knocking anybody that does but I have gone out and caught 45-50 bass at a time in one lake and sometimes I may fish a lake 3-4 times a year that would be a huge hit on the bass population on that Lake. There is a small lake up north that me and a buddy fished a few years back that we were catching a pike almost every time we casted. I didn't keep track that day of how many we caught but I know we wen't threw 35 spinner bait's. I just think that it's better to throw the majority of fish back. Maybe keep a couple for the pan. I don't muskie fish but If I did I would treat them the same (let'um go). So somebody else can catch them :D

[jimbos43]

Kingfisher, the thing is, I don't disagree with you.

All I disagree with is for one person to form a judgement, then bash another person who has done nothing wrong.
This country is all about rights and choice. Your right is to throw back any muskie you catch, and thats great, anothers choice is to keep some, and that's the person right, as long as it's within the law.

p.s. I don't think we've ever discussed muskie fishing before, i've only fished for them a couple of times, and any I have caught have been by accident. Have a good day.

[Hamilton Reef]

The musky guy with the ego problem does not have to kill his fish to enter the Master Angler Awards. His fish can be released as long as they meet standards and a photo. All musky (Great Lake, Northern, and Tiger) are the same minimum at 42-inches and 20-pounds to enter master angler awards. Here is the link for the application and rules.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/PR8008masterangler_17581_7.pdf

[Kingfisher]

Slipnot you are right I have gotten too emotional on this issue. I am going to back up one of my statements with a new post. (Just because it is law dosnt make it right). I have read the reports pages and see the decline in boat catches per day on St. Claire. This is due largely to an increase in Musky fisherman on the Pond. I am happy to say that released fish out number kept fish 2 to 1 and that is a good thing. I have said nothing to discredit the D.N.R. in fact have applauded them for a job well done. The fishing on St. Claire has improved with the 42 " limit. But My facts that I put on the table last post still stand. The pond could be as world class as Lake of the woods or the ottawa. But That is not the issue here. I like the 42 " limit as it works well for the smaller lakes that I fish where a 42" fish is getting close to as big as it gets. I am seeing a trend that is leaning back towards the old way of killing again. Many people in our state and D.N.R. have worked so hard to get this fishery(state wide) back to a respectable standing. With increased pressure will come increased kills. I have watched the same thing happen to walleye and perch on my side of the state. My new post will explain the statement about laws being right or wrong. I hold no malice toward anyone who disagrees with me as we are all entitled to our opinions. Remember this, all the big fish that are being killed now were alive before the 42" limit went into effect. There are still kill tournements and catch and keep numbers are rising not falling. How long can this magnificent fishery take the pressure? I dont get over there much because it is a long drive for us. Other great musky fisheries have upped the size limits to preserve the big females . I hope you guys still have a great fishery in 10 years. With a little common sense Im sure you will. I was only pointing out that your fish are getting snuffed. next post Im done with this one. Kingfisher

[Steely-Head]

So, Hasek is gone, eh? :D

[TBone]

I can see both sides of this. It seems everyone is really on the same page in the big picture.

This country is all about rights and choice. Your right is to throw back any muskie you catch, and thats great, anothers choice is to keep some, and that's the person right, as long as it's within the law.

You're right. But it is also about free speech. Kingfisher started off by saying that he was venting (end of first post). This guy has made his fishing a matter of public record for putting in for rewards. If it makes some of his Musky fishing peers mad, and he takes heat over it, HE DESERVES IT.

Tell some little kid he can’t keep a 48" fish because some musky club thinks they know better than the DNR and they have already caught some 48" fish and think if you return yours they might catch more 50" fish.

Trouble is, if "musky fisherman" can't control themselves ethically, then higher minimum size limits will be need and should be passed. Then it will be a shame a little kid can't keep a 48" trophy of a lifetime if they want because others have abused the limits.

I don't think anybody disputes the fact that there is no reason to be keeping all those fish. Certainly not the meat. If it's because they couldn't be revived, then he needs to take a real hard look at what he's doing wrong. I feel horrible if I can't release all my bass, if I was accidently killing all those Musky, I'd give it up.

T

[outsider]

You'r ALL right ----Now lets shake hands and come out fishing

[Kingfisher]

Thanks outsider and all the others who have made this a fine debate. I have learned several important things that will help me in the future . God bless and Im off to my favorite musky lake tomorrow. Ill be taking Shawn Raymond from great lakes fishing station after the mighty Musky. It should be a great time. Kingfisher

[Mike Thomas]

Some really interesting discussions on the muskie size limits for Lake St. Clair. Personally, I haven't observed an increase in muskie harvest over the last 10 years, and am not sure why Kingfisher is convinced the harvest is on the rise. The catch-and-release ethic among the muskie anglers I know is borderline fanatical. Guys who will dive into the lake and swim with the fish trying to revive them are not unheard of. Regrettably, I find it isn't unusual to come across dead muskies floating on the lake, particularly on a Monday or Tuesday. Certainly, there's always going to be some level of hooking mortality. And with the number of muskies present in LSC, the number of muskie anglers chasing them, and the number caught and released over the course of the summer, you've got to be talking about a fair number of fish dying due to hooking mortality or stress from being caught during warm weather...the current regulation would allow someone who has caught and released a fish that is clearly not going to make it, to keep the fish if it is over 42 inches. If the minimum size limit is raised to 50 inches, for example, those fish are gull fodder...can't be used on the grill OR hung on the wall...just seems like a waste to me. There is no guarantee that raising the minimum size limit would result in record size muskies. If your fishing pressure is high enough, and enough unintentional hooking mortality occurs, you'll still have few fish surviving to a really old age AND even then they might not reach record size due to competition with high densities of muskies. I believe that many of lakes that produce world record class muskies are large lakes with comparatively light fishing pressure AND low muskie densities.

I'd suggest that continued education and ethical encouragement by the muskie club and muskie anglers and muskie charter guys - all preaching the benefits of catch and release, is a good way to go. They might also want to make sure more anglers are aware of the NO consumption advisory for muskies from Lake St. Clair due to elevated levels of mercury. See advisory at: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Fishing_Advisory_2002_26575_7.pdf

[Handlining Rules]

Kingfisher, i agree with your opinions. We have been musky fishing on lkae st clair for a very long time and have not kept one fish. We take pictures. Half the joy is releasing. I also agree with letting people make their own decisions. If he is that good of a fisherman and is landing those hogs, i believe he is entitled to do whatever he wants to do. Its a very touchy topic. I would like to see the size limit on fish increase. But again, releasing everything will cause a surplus....eliminating all of our perch and other fish. tough topic. Just my 2 cents
-Andy

[jimbos43]

Agreed, it is a tough topic. The only point I was trying to make is what he's doing is not illegal, but personal choice, and shouldn't be condemned for it. If you want to throw back everything, that's great, it's your right.

[Kingfisher]

Hi again, Mike thomas, all you need to do is download the master angler pages on the Great lakes musky. Add the kills from year to year and you will see an alarming increase in entered fish over 42" in the catch and keep catagory. 2001,2000 1999, 1998 . the number keeps rising and this is due mostly to an increase of boats targeting the Muskies. I pointed out a statistic not a man. There are other guys with multiple entries . I just pointed out the worst. This is only the (entered fish). there are many times more that no one hears about and lets not forget the Canadians and out of staters taking fish every day. The absolute truth is every time I have been to the pond I have seen a kept fish under 45". I have to turn in my catch report as a guide every month . you can also read the catch reports from the charter boats. In public they say there are plenty of fish but they are all calling for higher limits to ward off the coming slow down. There are not nearly as many 50" fish as lots of us think there are. These fish depend on natural reproduction to keep up the numbers. Like I said before just because it is legal doesnt make it right. Heres to hoping the next 50 plus incher lives to fight again. Kingfisher

[TBone]

I hope it never gets to the point where laws passed by the government are the only ethics people have.

What is the food value of Muskie? Anybody ever try it? Would anybody take a top level predator like a Muskie and eat it from LSC? Just curious. I wouldn't, but I am not knocking others if they do. Living in general is hazardous to your health. I just wouldn't eat a Muskie that has magnified contaminants over the years.

There's alternatives to live mounts. I wouldn't begrudge anybody a live mount or even two. I do have to give a big thumbs down to people that have to kill Muskies over and over again.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion whether or not they are a guide or just a regular fisherman. Kingfisher seems like he's passionate about Musky. I don't think that his motives should be written off, just because he guides for the fish. I don't think he wants to make sure that there are enough fish for his clients, I think he wants to make sure that there are enough fish for all of us.

BTW KF:
How often do you guide on LSC? I got the impression that you mainly guided on the west side.


T

[TBone]

When you say you wouldn’t begrudge anybody a live mount or even two that is judgmental and it is fine for you or any other individual if that is what they want to do. Same goes for the big thumbs down for people who kill muskies over and over.

I'm not trying to hide the fact that I am being judgemental on this one. I am sure that no one is losing sleep over my judgements or opinions though. :D Just stating things the way I see them. I don't know if changes in regulations are warranted. I personally really doubt it. I just think that killing several muskie just because you can stinks. You can legally kill all kinds of game. Deer, Squirrel, Turkey, Rabbit, Musky, Kings, Walleyes, etc. and make a big bonfire in the backyard. Doesn't make it right in my judgement.


There is no moral question if what the person is doing is legal

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. We won't even get in to truly controversial areas where morals and laws cross lines for people. Things like abortion, euthanasia, prostitution, polygamy. Different countries have different laws on all of these. Just like different states have different game laws. Is a person's morality determined by what piece of land they are standing on at the time?

[muskiebob]

I guess I have caught as many Muskie as most Muskie Hunters in my life After getting a 45 pound fish in 1975 in the Upper. I have released all but 2 of the hundreds I have landed since. Both of them we mortal kill's I feel that I need a fish at least 5 pounds heavier to keep it. I do feel anyone should not kill a smaller fish after taking a big one for a trophy. My opinion and I'll stick by it. No glory in killing a smaller fish. LET IT GO- LET IT GROW. BOB


fixed the mistake and deleted the repost Bob, Hope ya don't mind

[trout]

All Sportspeople need to understand their quarry, is it at risk? is it edible?, would I feel better returning it to the water, and OH BOY I'LL grill this baby!, or even just show it off to the neighbors.

Acting within the law is legal of course.
Acting as a conservationist can always be a choice as well.
In this case, Muskies on LSC I don't think anyone should target big fish to keep.
They are not safe to eat and they provide 1000's of off spring.
Hatch rates for Muskie eggs, is low.
There have been studies on mortality that suggest many don't live and others saying 2% die.

I could stand in front of all of you and release a 50# Muskie any day of the week God willing :)
The thrill is in catching them, there are times when we need to look to the future as Canada has in the case of the Muskie and protect the big fish.
We don't need a law just more fishermen educated to uderstand why the big spawners are important to the system.

I would never look down at a person for keeping a fish, instead I would be polite and explain my reasoning on the conservation of big skis on LSC.

Who knows maybe if left to grow, they'll thin out the Jet Skiers :D
Having seen a big fish chase a lure I now understand the feelings many Muskie fishermen have for their quarry.
I know they add to the economy.....I have spent over 800 bucks this yr on stuff , and I'm just getting warmed up
Somebody Please Help Me!

[ESOX]

LMAO, Kirk, I feel guilty for getting you to join the cult.....NOT!!!!
Just wait for late summer and Fall, when you decide those wimpy 8" baits just aren't big enough.:O Talk about spending some serious $$$$$$. Then there's the need for big, dark, noisy baits for night fishing. Gonna need a barge to tow behind just for the baits and whichever set of rods isn't being used. (hmmm let's troll over there, drag in the barge so we can put these casting rods away and get out the trolling rods).
Killing a Muskie is POINTLESS. Why kill a 15 yr old fish to prove ones prowess??? Why get a skin mount when for about the same cost you can get a composite mount? Dragging a dead inedible fish all over the place to show off is ridiculous. That fish is priceless alive, worthless dead. Fortunately, most Muskies killed are killed by people who weren't targeting them. I guess they feel obligated to prove what great fishermen they are. There is enough mortality associated with the pursuit of these great fish, without the added sensless purposeful killing of them.
Perhaps such actions are legal, there are quite a few things that are "legal" that aren't the right thing to do in my book. Yes, it is a personal decision at this point in time. That's why I advocate a change in the law. To protect a somewhat rare and very valuable resource from mans ignorance. Look at what Ontario has done in Georgian Bay and the North Channel to protect the Muskie fishery. They have enacted a 50+ inch size. limit on Muskie. I think a "no kill" law is in order, Alpha predators are too valuable to be wasted.

[Kingfisher]

Slipnot, I am an inland waters guide and cannot even take anyone on St. Claire. This issue has nothing to do with my service as we fish only inland lakes like hudson and Thornapple. My original post was aimed at the growing number of kept fish from Lake St. Claire. If you were to look at the catch reports relating to the Great Lakes spotted Muskie you will note that Lake St. Claire dominates the 18 pages of master angler fish. I guide for Northern Muskies which are stocked and have better restrictions protecting them. That is why The state record Musky is not a St. Claire fish. It is a 49# 12 oz. Northern Musky from Thornapple lake. St. Claire fish are of the Great lakes strain and there is no Michigan stocking program to help this species. The good thing is that Lake St. Claire is a great nursery for large numbers of Mid size Fish. Many tagged Muskies from Lake St. Claire have been caught in Georgian Bay and Lake Erie. You see as they grow older and heavier they may seek out deeper water with bigger forage to support them. I have pointed out the facts as they are printed by our D.N.R. . I can count and clearly see an increase in the number of kept fish coming from St. Claire. There are more and more guys targeting these fish every day and the catch rates will continue to climb. When the 50's are gone the 49,48,47 ,46, go next. The same thing happened before the 42 " limit went into effect. There were tons of small Muskies and very few over the size limit. If I were a guide on St. Claire your reasoning would be correct . But the fact is the fish I guide for already are protected and the numbers of kept Northern Muskies are declining. Muskies Inc. Michigan Muskie Alliance, Michigan Muskie Hunters and several hundred dedicated fishermen and D.N.R. people have been working for a long time to bring about change in the Michigan Musky fishery. My passion for this fish is what drives my posting these tough issues. I am a co founder of Michigan Musky Hunters. My personal limit for a kept fish is the state or world record and no less. I would be hard pressed even then to kill such a magnificent fish. I have learned from experiance and study that Size limits are the only way to have a great fishery. Most guys will obey a law but how many will really use common sense or good judgement when the 49" fish is in the net. The first big fish I let go took some doing but it felt so good afterwards that I realized this fish was worth the effort to protect them. I hold no malice towards misguided guys or gals who feel they have to kill one to get a trophy mount. I just remind them that it took 20 to 30 years to grow that fish and now there is one less trash fish eater in the lake. Georgian Bay, Lake of the woods and lake after lake are upping the limits to keep the great fishing alive. I suggest we do the same. My fish are safe here and they will stay that way with the new 50 " size limit. Thorapple should be able to put out the next couple of state record fish leaving behind the finest lake we have . Lake St. Claire. Kingfisher

[fasteight]

i guess i should pay attention to master angler qualifications.. i dont usually care about em and usually let alot of fish go, but last year i had the great opportunity to catch a 52" musky in the north channel by the #7 bouy... what a time it was, almost a half hour to land it, 10lb test on a ultra light rod fishin for eyes'... i kept the fish only cause it was pretty well done by the time i got it in the boat but it was also the biggest of all i have caught.. didnt even turn it in for a master angler award, if i ever catch another , god willing, it will have a picture and then released, i dont see the point in keepin em, rather catch em again...

[Hamilton Reef]

Kingfisher, Did you see this article I posted on another thread?

Catching only big fish leads to small fry
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992505

[northern_outdoorsman]

Just read this whole Post....Good Debate people! My .02cents is why keep them if they have no food value?

The Composite Mounts....HOW and WHAT do you need to get one of these vs Using the actual fish? I for one have no clue how to do it and would probally keep my trophy fish too for that reason, not to mention I have never seen one of these kinds of mounts to see how real they actually are!

I would be curious to see what the people who catch and keep so many actually do with them....Mabey the have a "Trophy Room" much like Deer Hunters have with their Bucks....

Lastly, If it is legal...It is legal PERIOD.... Mabey the limit to keep needs to be raised, or the "One a Day needs to be lowered...but that is up to the concerned Individuals to present to the DNR and NRC....

[Kingfisher]

Hi Guys, Yes Tom I have read many articles like the one you posted. I agree that when you take the big fish from an eco system you are left with small ones. For you guys looking for composite mounts . Fintastic fish mounts, Graphite reproductions. Most good Taxidermists are offering Graphite repos now. I believe you can go to a search engine and type in Taxidermy graphite reproductions fish mounts. That should give you a whole list of companies providing this service. Kingfisher

[Kingfisher]

Hi Guys, I tried my own advice and there were dozens of taxidermists, check out this one, www.fintastic.com Kingfisher

[DZtaxidermy]

For all you interested in what you need for a fiberglass reproduction. All you need is to quickly take a length and girth measurement and a quick snapshot of your fish. The price difference I charge between a fiberglass and a skin mount is $3.00 per inch more for the fiberglass. The reason being is it costs a little over $3.00 per inch for me to buy the fiberglass fish blank. If anyone wants to see a photo of one I have a picture in the photo gallery on this site and also on my website.

[hot-tot]

hey the bottem line is different strokes for different folks !!! kingfish why you like to release i like to keep and plus he is doing everything legal so if you have a gripe gripe to the dnr not to people on this website i personally am sick of alot of you guys who want to argue about our fishing and our fish harvests in this state why dont you go gripe at the netting going on instead of a man taking 6 wallys or pike (in any combination) or his legal right to take a few smallies or perch or silvers or even muskie

[Kingfisher]

Public awareness Tot, we got over a hundred emails pledging support for increased size limits on Musky. Now we go to the D.N.R. That is one of the purposes of public forums. To talk about issues. The facts are undisputable. the kept fish rate on St. Claire Muskies is climbing back towards the numbers that killed this fishery before the 42"size limit. the nice thing is you will still have a lake full of 42" fish I guess thats better than a lake full of 36" fish. We will continue to push for higher size limits and tougher regulations regarding winter and spear fishing. All the other world class lakes have wised up and have the regulations. They are reaping unbelievable rewards. More walleyes, more perch more and bigger Muskies. Well we have got what we wanted from this post. Thank you all for your help and contributions to this very hard debate. I ask you all to practice sensible selective harvest. Leave the bigger fish in the eco systems. use graphite mounts . Remember it takes over 20 years to grow a 50" Musky 30 to grow a 55 or 56" We would not ask for a 60" size limit but the rest of the world is waking up to 50" limits and are seeing the results of keeping these giant predators in the eco systems. Sheepshead,carp,bullheads,suckers,dogfish and shad numbers are coming down where they should be while walleyes,perch and Smallmouth numbers are climbing. (Lake of the Woods). Cant say enough about good managment. Maybe some day we here in Michigan will have the same. Till then good fishing and God Bless, Kingfisher

[ESOX]

Originally posted by hot-tot
why dont you go gripe at the netting going on instead of a man taking 6 wallys or pike (in any combination) or his legal right to take a few smallies or perch or silvers or even muskie
UH- Hot-tot, if you are taking more than two Pike a day, you are poaching. As far as your being sick of people engaging in a civil and rational debate, I guess if you don't like it, don't read it. Go bury your head in the sand and assume that the way you feel about things is the only way people should feel.
Personally, I have had my opinions on important issues changed a few times by the debates on this site, when I see things from another perspective, or am made aware of facts I didn't know before.

[shametamer]

DZ, i'll keep u in mind, if i ever get another ski............

[hot-tot]

hey esox i guess that goes for you as well i use this site to share information with buddies that i have met not a moderator that tells me to go bury my head in the sand as far as the pike goes i am sorry i misqouted the dnr book however i do know that they count as one of your wally harvest i dont fish for them you have your opionion i have mine thats what this site is for i guess the same goes for you YOU DONT LIKE IT DONT READ IT !

[trout]

HA HA HA HA
Well I can see this is getting nowhere fast.
gripe to the dnr not to people on this website i personally am sick of alot of you guys who want to argue about our fishing and our fish harvests in this state
Why does the DNR always end up being blamed?

[Mike Thomas]

Quote from Kingfisher:

"The facts are undisputable. the kept fish rate on St. Claire Muskies is climbing back towards the numbers that killed this fishery before the 42"size limit."

Sorry, Kingfisher, but the "facts" are in fact quite disputable. In fact, there really aren't many "facts" on this topic, because there isn't much data on either effort OR harvest of any species from Lake St. Clair. The last creel survey was conducted in 1983-85. A creel survey is underway this year, but results won't be available until this winter sometime. There has been an angler diary program on the lake for muskie anglers since the mid 1980's, and the diary program data indicate that harvest of muskies is way down, while catch rates are way up, and catch and release rates are well over 90%...but the group of anglers in the diary program are by no means representative of the whole muskie fishery on Lake St. Clair. The charter fishery in particular is probably quite different. Anyways, I suspect that your "facts" are based on your (and others) perceptions and personal observations, and those really shouldn't be referred to as "facts". My personal observation has been that muskie fishing effort has increased over the last 10 years, and so has catch and release rates for legal size muskies....are there more muskies being harvested annually in 2001 and 2002, than back in 1984 or 85? We won't know that for a fact, until sometime late this winter, but it's possible that the catch and release rate is very high, but so many more muskies are being caught now that the absolute number harvested is near or higher than back in the early 1980's.

Another point - Lake St. Clair and Lake of the Woods, or Georgian Bay, really aren't comparable - at least not if you consider the human population present in the immediate vicinity of those waterbodies. Consider the fishing effort brought to bear per acre for Lake St. Clair with the huge population base in Southeast Michigan. Fishing effort can be a big factor in fish population dynamics. Even with catch and release fishing, high levels of fishing effort can result in considerable post-release hooking mortality, enough to prevent that accumulation of very old, very large fish that you are looking for.

One more thing - thanks for keeping the discussion rolling...there's been a lot of good thought provoking interchange an a very pertinent topic.

[Kingfisher]

I have used numbers from Charterboat catch reports , master angler awards and catch reports from several Canadian guides. For instance in 1998 onley 11 master angler fish were killed. in 2000 there were 22 from St. Claire alone. This represents a sample not a total. there is no way to know the exact number of mature fish being removed as most guys dont turn them in for awards. The charter boats on the pond are seeing more kills than there were before and that is why they all want a size increase. We want a size increase to preserve a great fishery for the future. I for one dont want to wait another 10 years for new year classes to grow to size. There are more fishermen on the pond than on Lake of the woods and that is a fact. All the more reason to start protecting what fish there are left. They have less pressure on L.O.W. and they have found it nessary to go to higher limits because IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Fish left to them selves achieve great things and eco systems balance out . The big predators are top of the food chain and control the stunting,trash fish and exotics. All other fish benifit from top line predators. There are countless articles and publcations on the subject in Musky Hunter, Esox Angler, In Fisherman and the many web sites like Muskie central where all the biology and facts have been studied by guys like Seric, Maina, Johnson and many many others. Your fish (YOUR FISH) not mine are being rapidly harvested. Inside of 5 years if the trend continues you will have a lake full of 42" and smaller muskies. I fished the Pond when all there were was a lot of 35 to 40 " fish out there. 10 to 20 fish per day was not uncommon for guys who knew how to fish them. At least the current size limits allow them to reach the about half thier life span before someone tosses them in the cooler. I have converted at least 22 guys to catch and release during the progressing of this post. I rest My case . I have been waiting for the D.N.R.S new report on the states Musky fishery and will have it soon. My best guess with the data that we have is St. Claire Musky numbers are climbing in the 42" and under and falling in the over 50" classes. The fish between 42 and 50 are the key to keeping what you have for the next 10 years. Remember 20 to 30 YEARS (YEARS) to grow one to 50" Stop thinking of Muskies as if they were salmon. If they grew as fast as a King we would have no complaints at all. 0 to 50 in 4 years. I feel great about this post and thank all the guys especially you splitshot for making me get out my paperwork and reread all the numbers. I have an article in front of me that is going to be my next post. More Facts and more work for me and many others as we try to save a dying perch population in west Michigan. Good fortune to you all and please try to save a few for your kids. Kingfisher

[Dead Bird]

:) Tanxs,
I'm not much of a fisherman but I learned alot reading these posts... I listen to the same debates about deer, waterfowl and upland birds...
From the outside looking in I can see both sides of the debate, I don't think there is any single correct answer but the balance that is being found is best for "all" sportsman...
I hope you guys keep up the passion without it sportsman will be the only ones that will lose..