Crossbows, the way of the future!

[IceDaddy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt6pTEwEs9A

Yeah, I really think we would be O.K.

I personally would not have taken the shot, at least until there was no,
deer behind. If the one he shot at would have ducked the string there is a high chance of wounding the one behind.

but then again that bolt got there extremly fast, and appeared to be pretty lethal.

(oh, and it didn't seem to be very loud?)

[Munsterlndr]

Interesting clip. He was sure busted by that doe pretty quickly, which kind of illustrates that scent control and getting in range is still the primary obstacle to bagging a deer. I was surprised that the doe hung around as long as she did stomping her foot.

As far as the shot, it's hard to tell whether the other deer was behind the target doe from the angle that the hunter was shooting from. It was behind it from the camera angle but the hunter seemed to be off to the left a bit, so he may have had a better angle for the shot. He was also shooting at a downward angle, so if the deer jumped the string the bolt may have just hit the dirt.

I enjoyed watching it, though. I was just waiting for that doe to bolt and see a bunch of white flags going off through the bush. The hunter did well to not rush the shot.

I have to say that I find it amazing that anyone who loves to hunt could watch that clip and reach the conclusion that the hunter in question is lazy or unsportsmanlike or lacked ethics, simply because his choice of weapon. . Looks to me like he was just like many of your average Joe six pack Michigan hunters who simply like to spend time in the woods and successfully harvest a nice fat deer.

[IceDaddy]

And after all, isn't that what it's all about! To get away from everyday
problems and not worry about what others think or say.

Now if there was proof that these things are just BAD for hunting like
eradicating the herd then I would be on the band wagon, but if the shotgun,
or centerfire rifle hasn't killed them off, I highly doubt that this thing would.

[Diggdug]

I hope not! Crossbows are fine if you want to use them during gun season, but other than that, we don't need them. Why? You know all those guys that hit the woods for a few days during gun deer season and never step foot in the woods any other time of the year, now picture them on opening weekend of bow season.:yikes:

[skipper34]

I hope not! Crossbows are fine if you want to use them during gun season, but other than that, we don't need them. Why? You know all those guys that hit the woods for a few days during gun deer season and never step foot in the woods any other time of the year, now picture them on opening weekend of bow season.:yikes:

What about "all those guys that hit the woods for a few days during gun deer season"? Does this mean that they are somehow an inferior group of hunters? Maybe there are other reasons. Have you considered that there are many who cannot get the time away to spend more time hunting? And what ever does that have to do with the weapon of choice? What about other states that allow crossbows during archery season? Did the fact that crossbows are legal ruin the season for other hunters? I think not.

Edited by boehr, everyone is entitled to there opinion.

[Munsterlndr]

I hope not! Crossbows are fine if you want to use them during gun season, but other than that, we don't need them. Why? You know all those guys that hit the woods for a few days during gun deer season and never step foot in the woods any other time of the year, now picture them on opening weekend of bow season.:yikes:

We don't need them? Who is We? I assume that you are speaking of Michigan sportsmen & women collectively when you say we. In point of fact there are probably a number of sportsmen out there who have a disability yet don't qualify for a permit under Michigan's Draconian crossbow permit rules. Probably a few woman and youngsters that would have a hard time pulling back a compound, who might benefit from being able to use a crossbow and who might join the hunting fraternity. I think you can make the case that those individuals need a crossbow, although need is not a word I would really apply to any weapon. Probably more appropriate to say they could benefit from a crossbow.

As far as the casual hunter who may choose to hunt only a couple of days out of the year, are you more entitled to use the public resource because you may make the personal decision to devote a greater amount of time to pursuing game? How many of those casual hunters are going to spend $1,000 or so to hunt a couple of days in early October? I truly think that concerns along these lines are greatly overblown. I doubt you would even notice the difference if crossbows had an expanded season. Has the archery season in Ohio been ruined? Has the herd there been wiped out?

Hunting is supposed to be fun. Personally I could care less if someone chooses to hunt only on opening day or whether they go out every day for the 3+ months that it is legal to hunt. Why would you care how often others choose to hunt or what weapon they choose to use?

This is not meant as a rhetorical question, I truly would like to understand the thinking & reasoning of those who want to dictate how others choose to hunt. The only valid concern that I can think of is whether the method or weapon employed would have an adverse impact on the resource or whether it would cause a disruption to other hunters (Example - firearms going off during archery season). I can buy that as a valid concern but other than that why would anyone care what methods and choice of weapons another hunter makes?

[Ferg]

Damnit - my first thought was to close this down - if you guys are NOT going to discuss this topic like gentlemen without the name calling then we'll not discuss it -

Be advised this thread is on tripple secret probation !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:mad:


ferg....

[Diggdug]

Since I am way too slow of a typer to reply to every point, I will say in general terms that any law that IMHO makes deer hunting easier than it already is IE: Youth season, baiting, and the use of crossbows, is a step in the wrong direction. You should have to work hard for something this good!

[flinch]

Since I am way too slow of a typer to reply to every point, I will say in general terms that any law that IMHO makes deer hunting easier than it already is IE: Youth season, baiting, and the use of crossbows, is a step in the wrong direction. You should have to work hard for something this good!

So we can assume then that you hunt with a basic stick and string (preferably home made) with no sites and without the aid of a release or any other specialized equipment. And I guess we can also assume that you must hunt on the ground without scents or scentlock clothing. After all, you don't want to make this too easy. You must really have hated to see the compound bow be developed and used as well as hunting from treestands. Makes things way to easy. And you must really frown upon carbon arrows, scope sites, as well as mechanical releases.

[boehr]

Keep your opinions about crossbows, not your opinions about someone elses opinions or if Ferg doesn't shut it down, I will.

[yoopertoo]

I think we should have a javelin only season the last week of October and the first week of November.

[Riva]

Others had said it here and I concur..taking a mature doe with any short-range weapon such a compound-, long- or cross-bow, is perhaps one of the most difficult tasks out there. As we know, bucks let down their guard somewhat during the rut. A muture doe NEVER lets down her guard, particularly when she is the group leader.

I have been "busted" by does a zillion times more than I have been by bucks. And, as for the "sound" of a crossbow when it releases.....I personally wait until a deer is within 20 yards for many reasons including the fact that my crossbow is indeed loud and arrow jump is common. So, I wait until the shot presents itself. If not, I dont take it, reminding myself once again how much I dislike dressing out a deer as well as the fact that I hate the taste of venison, which only goes to reinforce my decision not to shoot.

[fairfax1]

A poster notes: "I think we should have a javelin only season..."

Seems to me there was a news story going around within the last couple of years of Pennsylvania legalizing....or considering to legalize ......the atlatl. !!!

I never saw the proponents articulated reasons for wanting it...but I'd bet it would be interesting.

Color me skeptical.

[yoopertoo]

Color me skeptical.

Me too. I was being sarcastic. :)

Sarcasm aside, I would not oppose it as long they really did not have a special season for it. Three distinct seasons is adaquate I think.

[fairfax1]

Yup, Yooper, I knew you were throwin' the javelin with a wink. I appreciated your parody. These xbow threads get snakebite serious in a nanosecond so your humor was appreciated.

I've been reading ---and participating --- in these tempest-in-a-teapot hissyfits for some time. If all the posts were collected into one volume and a newbie hunter was to sit down and read them.......well, I'd think the last people he'd want to be in the woods with are the folks one each side of this issue.

Can't these folks learn to party?!

[Chuck]

To me this video proves the main difference between bows and crossguns(yea I said it lol). That being that you would have had to have your bow drawn back and held it the whole time waiting for the correct angle. That doe was ready to spring and it would have been almost impossibale with a bow to draw on her. With a cross gun you just point and shoot. SSSSSo keep them out of archery season and in gun season where they belong.

It is some great hunting footage and I enjoyed it. It looked like he spined her?

Having said that I dont see anything wrong with loosening up the requirments to get one like with over a certain age and lessening the dissability amount. Also let them be in BP season. But not during artchery.

This just my opinion so flame away if you must. Its not directed towards anyone and its not ment to be negitive.

[Ferg]

This just my opinion so flame away if you must. Its not directed towards anyone and its not ment to be negitive.

There will be no flaming Chuck, everyone is free to air their opinions here without personal attacks in return -

ferg....

[marty]

To me this video proves the main difference between bows and crossguns(yea I said it lol). That being that you would have had to have your bow drawn back and held it the whole time waiting for the correct angle. That doe was ready to spring and it would have been almost impossibale with a bow to draw on her. With a cross gun you just point and shoot. SSSSSo keep them out of archery season and in gun season where they belong.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. The fellow went hunting with a weapon and took a deer. How do you know you couldn't have shot that deer with a compound and dropped her as well? If that man was legally hunting I see no problem at all. You could be in good camo and got away with a longbow even. Important thing is fellow got to hunt. It shouldn't matter what weapon as long as he's legal.....m

[swoosh]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. The fellow went hunting with a weapon and took a deer. How do you know you couldn't have shot that deer with a compound and dropped her as well? If that man was legally hunting I see no problem at all. You could be in good camo and got away with a longbow even. Important thing is fellow got to hunt. It shouldn't matter what weapon as long as he's legal.....m

I agree 100%

I would not have shot the deer being she was alert to the hunter.

Some are making a lot of assumtions.

[Munsterlndr]

To me this video proves the main difference between bows and crossguns(yea I said it lol). That being that you would have had to have your bow drawn back and held it the whole time waiting for the correct angle. That doe was ready to spring and it would have been almost impossibale with a bow to draw on her. With a cross gun you just point and shoot. SSSSSo keep them out of archery season and in gun season where they belong.

It is some great hunting footage and I enjoyed it. It looked like he spined her?



So let me ask you this question, do you think that it is unfair if someone does not have to draw a bow? Does the fact that you don't have to draw a crossbow (putting aside momentarily the notion that there is still movement bringing it up to your shoulder and turning to aim at the target) really mean anything? I'd truly like to hear your view on this. I just don't understand why it wold make any difference to you if the guy in the next treestand chooses to use a compound or a crossbow. Same deer, same hunter. The deer is likely to get whacked regardless of which weapon is chosen, so why do you care what I choose to hunt with?

I can only guess that it goes back to the argument that I commonly hear that "archery is supposed to be difficult and crossbows make it too easy" Too easy? Who defined the rules of the hunt and determines what level of difficulty is acceptable? If the purpose is to keep archery difficult then modern archery manufactures must be the devil incarnate for making 90% let off bows that weigh 3 lbs, carbon arrows, trigger releases, illuminated sights, scent-loc camo suits, scopes, range finders and all the other equipment that is completely mainstream and who's primary purpose is to make it easier to bow hunt.

Too easy? Too accurate? Too deadly?

Is it a better thing to force people to use less accurate, less deadly, more difficult weapons to shoot, which are likely to result in more wounded deer? Remember we are shooting at live targets here, not bales of straw.

I suspect that some choose to object to crossbows in the hopes that some hunters will choose not to hunt if they cannot use a crossbow. The more likely scenario and where I think we are at right now, is that many bowhunters pick up a bow, not because they have any interest in archery but because they want to hunt during archery season and want more opportunity to hunt deer. I read a quote from someone recently who said, "if they had a rock and dull sticks season, I'd be out there bashing & sticking deer". Not because he has any great love for sticks & stones but because he loves to hunt.

I contend that many of today's bow hunters don't take the archery aspect very seriously. They probably don't practice as much as they should but if they can shoot a couple of arrows at a target and get them in a 12" circle at 15 yards they call it good and go hunting. These are probably the same guys who stick 4 or 5 deer a year and either just wound them or make such poor shots that they never recover the deer. Believe me they are already out there in the woods. If allowing them to use crossbows increases their success rate and they manage to harvest one or two deer instead of wounding and losing four or five, I think that would be a good thing. I can already hear the cries "but then you are rewarding the lazy hunter"! No, what you are doing is recognizing the fact that most hunters view hunting as recreation and that they will have differing levels of intensity, from picking up a gun for one day on opening day to hunting every day of the season and practicing with your bow every day of the year. There is room in the outdoors for all types of hunters.

The numbers of bow hunters that fall into that category is not as small as one might suspect. In Ohio, half of the archery hunters are using a crossbow and since the traditionalists argue that crossbows do not recruit any new hunters to the ranks then it stands to reason that all of those crossbow hunters are former bow hunters who are more into hunting than archery.

A crossbow is merely a tool, one of many that can be used effectively to spend time in the outdoors enjoying nature and pursing game.

[SgtSlaughter]

...

Having said that I dont see anything wrong with loosening up the requirments to get one like with over a certain age and lessening the dissability amount. Also let them be in BP season. But not during artchery.

...


I agree and have said the same thing in a previous thread.

[chrisu]

I wouldn't mind a crossbow being allowed for use if there is a physical/other limitation that warrants it. Archery season is for archers, and to me, archery is defined as using a bow in which the shooter holds the bow in position while the energy is being stored for release. A crossbow obviously holds this energy by mechanical means. I also contend that with 80% letoffs being legal except for record books, it would take a similar, if not less amount of effort to pull the string back on a compound bow. A compound dialed in at 50# with 80% letoff leaves an archer holding 10# which is pretty easy...

If we must have crossbows in the field, then within the context of other trigger pulling seasons would be acceptable to me.

[eddiejohn4]

I will post one more time just for the heck of it. I do not care what you use to kill your meat as long as it is fast and humane, and you only take what you are licensed for.:)

[traditional]

I have been following these crossbow threads for awhile. Both weapons are short range. Both weapons use an arrow with broadhead. Both require a well placed shot. The only difference is when you draw. Bow and Crossbow are to similar to be different. I am getting older and have a much harder time pulling the poundage I use to. Someday I will not be able to pull a bow back. We all have the same opportunity as far as tags go. If the animal is taken with a quick clean kill (everyones goal). If the crossbow will increase hunters numbers, and keep disabled hunters in the woods I am all for it. Hunter numbers are shrinking. We need to promote hunting and stop worrying about the other guy as long as everyone act's ethically and stays within the laws. My two cents. Thanks for listening.

[Diggdug]

IMHO crossbows suck and should not be legal! IMHO IMHO!!!

[Ferg]

IMHO crossbows suck and should not be legal! IMHO IMHO!!!


Much better Diggdug - thanks for cleaning that up - ;)


ferg....

[PWood]

If we must have crossbows in the field, then within the context of other trigger pulling seasons would be acceptable to me.

Based on this analogy, all bow hunters that use trigger releases should hunt only "within the context of other trigger pulling seasons."

[Chuck]

There are alot of reasons why alowing crossbows into regular archery is so controversial. Go to any web site that has to do with archery and start a thread about alowing crossbows into archery season and it will get heated. Your talking about changing something that most hold very sacred to there heart. Its almost a fanatic religion to pic up a bow and learn to use it the right way and then hunt deer or other animals with it.

Sure my compound bow is more accurate than my recurve but I would never say easyar. My compound needs constant attention to details to get it shooting right and keep it shooting right. My recurve dosent get any easyer to shoot. I put a few twists in the string to get my brace height in the right sweet spot and it shoots great year after year. If the string stretches I just twist it back to the proper brace height. There are no sights to mess with or anything else. Any one who has been to my house and shot either bow shoots both with about the same amount of acuurecy. They can usualy hit the target at 10 yards. Some do beter than others.

If I had a crossbow any who would shoot it, would shoot it with much greater accurecy with very little effort. Now to some this tstands to reason that they must be better so we must allow them in archery. Then why not allow any gun into archery season? Why have a season at all? OCt1st to Jan 1st it could just be a free for all until your tags are filled. Im not being a smart but in stating that.

I m all for loosening up the restrictions to use one. But I do not think they should be allowed to be used by anyone during archery season. If that makes me an elitest then so be it.

My personal feelings are that in our world today every one wants to make everything easy and fast. Some things are not ment to be fast and easy. There is something about the craftsmenship and learning about your bow and how to properly set it up and shoot it that makes it special. I want to see it remain that way. If you dont get it then maybe the fast and easy life has taken your heart and you will never understand an archers point of view. A cross bow is a short cut to make things very easy. FOr a disabled hunter and soemone over a certain age then this is a good thing.

My point I was trying to make about the video is that I have tried to draw my bow on deer that are alert like that before (when i first started ) and it has never ended with me getting one or even taking a shot. But then again I dont have to just point and shoot. I would have to raise bow, draw back very smooth and slow and hold for a long time. I would have to wait for the deer to put its head down or turn away before I shot at that animal in the video in qeustion.

With a crossbow its more like a gun. All your waiting for is the proper angle while holding aim the whole time.

As far as 80% let offs well thats another thread all together. I have hunted other states and some western states have a 65% let or less law with archery equipment. They dont allow mechanical heads on large game either.

I shoot 68 lbs with a 65% let off and my recurve is 45 pounds. At 20 yards I shoot both bows with the same amount of accurecey. It took me alot longer than a day or even a weekend to do this with consistency. It was more like years. Regardless of the let off I still have to physicaly pull back all 68 pounds smoothly.

It seems like in so many of these threads people like to argue semantics for the sake of arguing. This is not ment to be the point of my post and I wont get sucked into this. Im just trying my best to explain one archers point of view on the subject and it comes from my heart. Its not ment to put anyone down and make anyone feel lower than me becosue they dont bow hunt. This is america and we have choices. Right now if you want to hunt with a crossbow you can legaly there is a season for it.

One last thing, I hunt public land and have run into moe than a few guys hutnign with a crossbow. They are so happy they could still be hunitng during archery season after there dissability. Alot of these guys are so die hard the only concern on there mind when they aquired there disaability was they wouldnt be able to bow hunt. Thye payed there dues and are true woodsman. This is why I hink we need to change the requirments for getting a permit to use one during archery season.

Munsterlnder this not ment to be a punch to you but by your reasoning then why not make all archeyr equipment illegal and only guns legal? After all archers only wound deer. I have lost one deer with my bow and one with a gun. I have shot alot of deer with both weapons. The reasons I lost both animals was due to inexperience not my equipment.

[cadillacjethro]

I hunt with a bow because I love to. I also hunt with a gun for the same reason. The reason is I love to be in the woods HUNTING. If I choose to do it with a long bow, recurve, compound, or crossbow it should be allowed IMO. People who hunt with long bows do it because they WANT to. Cross bows in the woods shouldn't (and won't I suspect) change that.

[weatherby]

Sweet! One of these days I hope to be able to do the same thing with a crossbow here in Michigan during bow season

[marty]

Why people keep thinking crossbow are like rifles and they're not. Just shoot one next to a 30.06. You can see,hear and smell the difference. A rifle kills by shock where a xbow kills just like every longbow.recurve and compound by blood loss due to a broadhead. That's why they should be in archery season. They IMO would reduce these " wounding storys" about the big one that couldn't be found due to a marginal hit or just plain bad shot.

As one fellow likes to shoot his old recurve one fellow mention wanting to hunt with his old type xbow that he built. Same stuff. We should all want to bring others in the sport not continue to seperate by not allowing others to hunt with their weapon of choice............m

[Munsterlndr]

Munsterlnder this not ment to be a punch to you but by your reasoning then why not make all archeyr equipment illegal and only guns legal? After all archers only wound deer. I have lost one deer with my bow and one with a gun. I have shot alot of deer with both weapons. The reasons I lost both animals was due to inexperience not my equipment.

Chuck -
I appreciate the reasoned response and I certainly understand where you are coming from. I do think the argument of "why not just legalize guns in archery season" is a red herring. Obviously guns go boom and that amount of noise would impact deer movement, disturb other hunters and dramatically alter the character of the "silent season." That cannot be said for crossbows, though. Whether another hunter is using a crossbow, a compound a long bow or an atlatl is not going to have any impact on the guy in the next treestand. So the analogy to firearms and the impact that they would have is not an accurate one.

I understand that you feel archery should be difficult but recognize that the vast majority of bow hunters probably do not share that point of view. As evidenced by how much they embrace new technology and how many choose to hunt with a long bow or recurve. I'd guess, what, maybe 1% of bow hunters don't use compounds?

I did not suggest that bow hunting should be outlawed because deer may get wounded. But it's hard to buy the complaints voiced by some hunters that crossbows are too accurate or too deadly. How can a weapon be too accurate or too deadly? You can also bet that the animal rights activists already have plans to target bowhunting like they did dove season and one of the arguments that you will hear is that bow hunting results in too many wounded, unrecovered deer. It seems to me that introducing crossbows would not only bolster the ranks of bow hunters (strength in numbers) but also defray some of the criticism about accuracy. If using a crossbow allows some of the guys who don't currently practice enough with compounds to be more successful and reduces the number of wounded or unrecovered deer, that has to be seen as a positive and IMHO it outweighs any concerns voiced by traditionalists about what it might do to the "sacred" tradition of bow hunting.

That "tradition" is a somewhat artificial construct anyway. How many guys are out there using a yew bow with cedar arrows tipped with flint like Ishi? Is using a resin impregnated laminated recurve really all that traditional? It may look similar but it is certainly a product of modern technology, just as much as a compound or most modern crossbows. Do you get points for being a traditionalist if your carbon or aluminum arrows have fake wood grain so they look like cedar arrows? It just seems to me that the tradition that some would like to perpetuate has more to do with preserving the exclusive right to pursue deer during certain dates on the calender than it does with trying to emulate the methods and equipment that were used by a previous generation of bow hunters.

[swoosh]

It just seems to me that the tradition that some would like to perpetuate has more to do with preserving the exclusive right to pursue deer during certain dates on the calender than it does with trying to emulate the methods and equipment that were used by a previous generation of bow hunters.

Man that is bumper sticker material if it would fit:p

My questions is for the guys who rail against crossbows and you have your reason. What did you guys do to help the dove bill?

[boehr]

My questions is for the guys who rail against crossbows and you have your reason. What did you guys do to help the dove bill?Stay on subject, dove season has nothing to do with crossbows!

[Briar Field]

In my opinion I see a couple senairos that would be nice to see a crossbow used.

1. Now that we are letting younger kids hunt deer with bows, it would be nice to give them the option of having something a little stronger to make a clean kill. I know a number of kids that would want to hunt, but would not be able to hunt with a 35# bow. Also using my wife as an example, she is built light and would have trouble handeling a 35# bow, but would love to hunt bow season. Instead she is stuck to Gun and Muzzleloading season. So it would be great to get women like my wife and Kids into the sport and give them more time in the woods.

2. I would like to see the cross bows come down in poundage. I believe most of them are 125 to 150. Put them down to 70# or even 60# and make them equivelent to a average hunting bow.

[swoosh]

In my opinion I see a couple senairos that would be nice to see a crossbow used.

1. Now that we are letting younger kids hunt deer with bows, it would be nice to give them the option of having something a little stronger to make a clean kill. I know a number of kids that would want to hunt, but would not be able to hunt with a 35# bow. Also using my wife as an example, she is built light and would have trouble handeling a 35# bow, but would love to hunt bow season. Instead she is stuck to Gun and Muzzleloading season. So it would be great to get women like my wife and Kids into the sport and give them more time in the woods.

2. I would like to see the cross bows come down in poundage. I believe most of them are 125 to 150. Put them down to 70# or even 60# and make them equivelent to a average hunting bow.


Your no 2 is way off. The shoot the same speeds as compound bows and they have less KE energy. I really so not thnk a 70# crossbow could kill a deer nor would I want to shoot at one with it. Bolt is way to light

[SgtSlaughter]

That "tradition" is a somewhat artificial construct anyway. How many guys are out there using a yew bow with cedar arrows tipped with flint like Ishi? Is using a resin impregnated laminated recurve really all that traditional? It may look similar but it is certainly a product of modern technology, just as much as a compound or most modern crossbows. Do you get points for being a traditionalist if your carbon or aluminum arrows have fake wood grain so they look like cedar arrows? It just seems to me that the tradition that some would like to perpetuate has more to do with preserving the exclusive right to pursue deer during certain dates on the calender than it does with trying to emulate the methods and equipment that were used by a previous generation of bow hunters.

I know this wasn't addressed to me specifically but I wanted to comment on it so I hope I'm not overstepping. My apologies if I am.

By definition for something to be tradition it doesn't necessarily have to be historically accurate. Tradition like many things is very subjective and just because you are not utilizing 2000 year old technology doesn't mean it's not a tradition. You may not agree with my view on tradition but that doesn't mean it's not a tradition.

My beliefs are not structured around keeping the October woods exclusive. If you cannot use a compound bow then you should be able to easily get a crossbow permit. If that is not possible then I support reformation to make it so.

[Munsterlndr]

In my opinion I see a couple senairos that would be nice to see a crossbow used.

1. Now that we are letting younger kids hunt deer with bows, it would be nice to give them the option of having something a little stronger to make a clean kill. I know a number of kids that would want to hunt, but would not be able to hunt with a 35# bow. Also using my wife as an example, she is built light and would have trouble handeling a 35# bow, but would love to hunt bow season. Instead she is stuck to Gun and Muzzleloading season. So it would be great to get women like my wife and Kids into the sport and give them more time in the woods.

2. I would like to see the cross bows come down in poundage. I believe most of them are 125 to 150. Put them down to 70# or even 60# and make them equivalent to a average hunting bow.

I agree with your first point. On your second point, crossbows require significantly higher poundage in order to achieve the same FPS and kinetic energy as a compound. Because of the shorter length of the limbs, reducing the poundage to under around 120 will not create enough energy to insure a clean, humane kill. Take a 140 lb. crossbow and a 70 lb compound and the energy and speed is going to be pretty similar. A 60 lb draw weight on a crossbow would be like a 30 lb draw weight on a compound and regardless of what Bob Garner says, that is at the low end of the ethical draw weight that should be used on deer.

[shotgun12]

its nice ti see, but we cant kill anything with a bow over here in england,think it was banned in 1980.

[Munsterlndr]

I know this wasn't addressed to me specifically but I wanted to comment on it so I hope I'm not overstepping. My apologies if I am.

By definition for something to be tradition it doesn't necessarily have to be historically accurate. Tradition like many things is very subjective and just because you are not utilizing 2000 year old technology doesn't mean it's not a tradition. You may not agree with my view on tradition but that doesn't mean it's not a tradition.



You make my point exactly, "tradition" is a totally arbitrary and subjective idea that means different things to different people. My crossbow is based on a design from the 15th century and is made out of materials that are historically accurate to that time frame. In my mind this makes it a "traditional" weapon, much more so than a fiberglass or composite bow that has only been produced for the last 30 years or so. So in turn, you may not agree with my view on what is traditional but that does not mean it isn't. The bottom line is that everybody should be entitled to adhere to their tradition, as long as it does not impact someone else's opportunity to adhere to what they see as tradition. My choosing to use a crossbow will have no impact on you following what you see as tradition, yet by limiting my opportunity to use my choice of weapon you are preventing me from practicing my form of tradition. Therein lies the rub in this issue.

[swoosh]

its nice ti see, but we cant kill anything with a bow over here in england,think it was banned in 1980.

Take note Sportsman and woman:eek:

[SgtSlaughter]

You make my point exactly, "tradition" is a totally arbitrary and subjective idea that means different things to different people. My crossbow is based on a design from the 15th century and is made out of materials that are historically accurate to that time frame. In my mind this makes it a "traditional" weapon, much more so than a fiberglass or composite bow that has only been produced for the last 30 years or so. So in turn, you may not agree with my view on what is traditional but that does not mean it isn't. The bottom line is that everybody should be entitled to adhere to their tradition, as long as it does not impact someone else's opportunity to adhere to what they see as tradition. My choosing to use a crossbow will have no impact on you following what you see as tradition, yet by limiting my opportunity to use my choice of weapon you are preventing me from practicing my form of tradition. Therein lies the rub in this issue.

While your crossbow may be archaic I do not see this as a solid reason for a broad legalization of them for use in archery season. In my mind the tradition in archery season does not include a device that is locked and loaded. No one is preventing you from practicing your form of tradition as you are free to use your crossbow during gun season.

[SgtSlaughter]

On a lighter note I have to say that crossbows really aren't priced all that excessively when compared to compounds. I got kinda curious after these discussions as to how much they cost.

[Munsterlndr]

While your crossbow may be archaic I do not see this as a solid reason for a broad legalization of them for use in archery season. In my mind the tradition in archery season does not include a device that is locked and loaded. No one is preventing you from practicing your form of tradition as you are free to use your crossbow during gun season.

With all due respect, your interpretation of tradition may not include a device that is locked and loaded but should you be allowed to define that tradition for everyone? The favored weapon for hunting deer during the Tudor monarchy in England (Henry VIII) was the crossbow. Obviously their hunting tradition included a device that was locked & loaded. As far as being able to hunt with them during firearms season, wow, a whole 2 weeks, while guns are going off all around the county. I suppose that the DNR could have originally told Fred Bear that he did not need a special season for archery because he could hunt during firearms season. Was that a legitimate argument.?

[SgtSlaughter]

With all due respect, your interpretation of tradition may not include a device that is locked and loaded but should you be allowed to define that tradition for everyone? The favored weapon for hunting deer during the Tudor monarchy in England (Henry VIII) was the crossbow. Obviously their hunting tradition included a device that was locked & loaded. As far as being able to hunt with them during firearms season, wow, a whole 2 weeks, while guns are going off all around the county. I suppose that the DNR could have originally told Fred Bear that he did not need a special season for archery because he could hunt during firearms season. Was that a legitimate argument.?

I don't define the tradition for everyone, only myself. I have my view of the tradition of archery season and then I express that opinion here in the forum. If the majority of people think that crossbows should be legalized for archery season then so be it, however, if the majority of people think that they are a different class weapon then they are free to be used in a different season.

You could go on and on about the history of European monarchy hunting weapons but that still will not change my stance on the view of a modern crossbow in archery season. Now if you want to talk about reforming crossbow requirements then I'm all ears because I don't want to see anybody not be able to go hunting because of disability.

[stillwaiting]

Like crossbows better than a bow.

[skipper34]

I feel that crossbows should be made legal for everyone during archery season. If a hunter does not want to use a crossbow then he or she has a choice not to use one. Same as during muzzleloading season, the weapon used is a personal choice.

[Riva]

There seems to be a concerted effort from some to resurrect the spirits of “heroes past” to use as a benchmark for determining one’s opinion surrounding the expansion of crossbows here in Michigan. I call it the “What would Fred do?” syndrome. Meaning, we look backwards to proverbial archery and bow hunting legends in order to give credence and support of the argument against expansion. The underpinning of this sort of thinking is rooted in the premise that since these famous and now dead individuals personally did not choose to use a crossbow way back then that, they would naturally find its use, then and now, abhorrent. Well, that sort of exegesis is flawed because we don’t know what their attitude actually was. Plus, it really doesn’t matter in the overall scheme of things. Why? Because it all still boils down to creating the maximum amount of sporting-hunter opportunity within the scope of optimally managing the resource irrespective of traditions, folklore, technology and legend.

This is in no manner to show disrespect for any of these people’s memories or his/her contribution to the sport through the years. It simply raises the question, would these same people have indeed been opposed to hunting with a crossbow if it were available and/or legal back then? I contend the answer is a solid NO!

Look…archery in its most primitive form is just that; primitive! The equipment that our legends of the sport used to archery hunt during the last 100 years was far, far cry from what earlier civilizations used to harvest game. In fact, it was far cry from what even the very generation before them used to accomplish the same ends. Hunters acquire, and continue to acquire, the most technologically advance archery appliance available to them on that day.

Furthermore, it was Fred Bear’s vocation, as well as his avocation, to continually improve upon and advance archery technology throughout his entire life. To be honest, his lifelong efforts can actually be defined as making archery even more effective and even more lethal than the generation before it and, not the other way around. Otherwise, we’d have seen a rejection of new things followed by regression in technology that stops only with a reunion with the cave man utilizing a wetted tree-limb strung with animal intestine. History and logical thinking tells just the opposite has happened.

Nor, did they stop and say, “Well, this is about as far as things should go” as if we should take a technological “snapshot” at one particular juncture in time and not ever ever advance beyond that point. I’ve seen religious sects embrace that sort of ideology. Time stops for nobody whether you like it or not. Here’s an excerpt taken from the current Bear Archery website:

Fred remained active in designing products and promoting bow hunting until his death in 1988.

Case in point; archery technology moves forward. Fred knew it and, in fact, was one of its chief architects. Did he (or they) personally embrace it? Evidence shows he/they did. Although it really doesn’t matter in the total scheme of things. What really matters is again, creating the maximum amount of sporting-hunter opportunity within the scope of optimally managing the resource.

[marty]

I wonder how many bow manufactures now sell crossbows that never did??? Problem is folks is getting a permit isn't just a done deal. If you have no disabilty for say on paper but have a badback and can't pull your bow back cause of a old war wound it's not automatic. Making xbows legal would cut out all this snafu and let people get back into the woods to hunt.

Problem is bowhunting orgs like MBH is death on the xbow issue and doesn't even want to ease up on the restrictions. They seem to even want harder rules in place. One of the prez's said " he wouldn't even hunt with a xbow if he become disabled". To me I would hunt from my death bed. Just boggels my mind.........m:sad:

[wildcoy73]

oka guys crossbows will always be an issue that we can't agree on, i am for them and would pay more for a tag so my kids could use a crossbow during the archery season or even the youth hunt. as the law has them listed my 10 year old can not use a crossbow during the youth hunt but a 12 year old can, on private property. if allowing crossbow for youth became legal, i could see the number of kids hunting going up. and i still can not see a diffrent in a cross bow and my compound. they both have limbs, both have a string, both use a carbon shaft, both have razorblades on the end, both have sights,(in my case a red dot). both must be carried into the woods, both must be raised to shot. from most of my stands if a deer sees me drawing my bow or lifting a crossbow it tells me i messed up. not the weapon i choose to hunt with. i love archery season and will never be bothered by someone else joining myself in the woods. now for our rifle season i could care less. the woods are loud and mother nature is freaking out. let me sit in my tree all day without the sound of a rifle and only the sound of mother nature and i am happy. so bring on the next step in archery and embrace these hunters, they are our future.

[IceDaddy]

I found this to be an interesting read.

http://hunting.about.com/od/arch/l/aa020716a.htm

[Riva]

This article touched upon virtually every argument and in a clear and compelling manner, fully dismantles the anti-crossbow rhetoric. All should take a few minutes to read.

One contemporary position that the author failed to touch upon is what the anti-crossbow community refers to as the "slippery slope" conspiracy. Specifically: that any loosening of the current restrictions that would allow a person with a disability and/or attaining a certain age milestone (say, age 65 or older) will eventually and inevitably open up the “floodgates” to crossbow hunters in biblical proportions. (“floodgates” being translated from the ancient Hebrew as “our deer, in our woods, during our season”.) As you know, the NRC is currently contemplating making such a change. I, for one, support the initiative however; don't believe that it goes far enough. But that's an entirely different subject.

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

all i can say is october 1st my dad and i will be in the woods with our HORTONS 175 lb crossbows. furthermore it doesn't matter to either of us if we shoot a deer or not!!!!!! just being able to be in the woods hunting is what COUNTS PERIOD!

[swoosh]

all i can say is october 1st my dad and i will be in the woods with our HORTONS 175 lb crossbows. furthermore it doesn't matter to either of us if we shoot a deer or not!!!!!! just being able to be in the woods hunting is what COUNTS PERIOD!


I would be honored to hunt with you:)

[lang49]

furthermore it doesn't matter to either of us if we shoot a deer or not!!!!!! just being able to be in the woods hunting is what COUNTS PERIOD!

:lol: Just being in the woods is what counts...yet you don't see them sitting in the woods in January with no weapon whatsoever ! :lol:

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

january, i'am sitting in a shantee with a homemade pike spear in my hand and a decoy jig in the other with mr heater keeping me warm. yep, january/febuary is PIKE HUNTER time, feel the steel and get a meal!

[arrowdog]

I am not against crossbows, but the only way I would ever use one is if I was disabled and unable to draw my compound. That's just my personal opinion. I love the act of drawing and holding my bow myself (albeit with a mechanical 65% letoff). I crossbows were to become legal for everyone I think that we would see a slight increase in hunter numbers, but not much. I think that there are astill a lot of bow hunters who prefer a long or compound bow. I like that a crossbow is an option if I do ever become disabled and that is the only way that I could hunt.