Ok Electricians I have a question for you

[Steve]

I am building a generator house in the middle of my property up north. It has been place midway between my well (with electric pump), and trailer which requires 30A service. I have run 6 gauge copper wire from the shack to both the pump and also in conduit and up a 4x4 post for the trailer service.

Now for my question: The box for the 30A receptacle only accepts a maximum of 10 gauge wire. What is the best way to step down in wire size at the box? I would also like to put a normal outdoor 110V receptacle on the other side of the 4x4 for misc use. What's the best way to do this?

[ih772]

Try using some small bronze split bolts and make pigtails. Tape them up really well when you're done. You might even be able to use the big blue or gray wirenuts to do that same thing....hard to say not knowing how much room you have in the box, if it's a standard 4" box, or use a deep 4 11/16 box so you have room to fit the wire and pigtails.

If I remember correctly I've done the same thing in light poles (using the big blues and grays) when going from the #10 inside the pole feeding the lights to the #6 in the conduit runs between pole bases....feel free to PM me if you have more questions.

[Steve]

I got a pretty big box and would have plenty of room for wire nuts but didn't know if this was up to code to make such big connections this way.

[ih772]

Each wire nut has a rating for the size of wire it can be used with and the number of wires and sizes you can put under it. You can find that info on the side of the wire nut boxes. The yellow and red wire nuts most people are familiar with are too small for what you're trying to do but the larger gray and blue wire nuts are made for the larger sized wire like #10 - #6.

Something else that occurred to me was providing some sort of over-current protection for the general purpose 120V receptacle you want to mount on the 4 x 4 pole. I know for sure that they do make 20A 120V recpts. and it's what I would use if I were doing the same thing. I'm sure some of the other sparky's on here will chime in and have some good ideas on how to mount the recpt. while being able to protect it from over-current at the same time. It's sort of late and I'm just not coming up with a practical solution at the moment....too much studying for finals I think. :)

[double trouble]

there are a couple of ways to handle this. one is to buy a 30 amp fused a/c disconnect and mount your 120 plug below it.it will handle 6 guage wire.they only cost 15 bucks and about 25 for a ground fault/box/cover you can buy 20 amp fuses and put a plug below it with a in use cover.that way you protect yourself and the wire.

the trailer plug should be housed in a weatherproof enclosure if it is outside.yes you can use wirenuts blue or grey) but put some di-electric grease inside them so they do not rust out. i just hope you are running 4 conductors if the system is 220 and separating your ground and neutrals.

i have some of the stuff here if you need it. free.you live maybe 10 minutes away.

[wild bill]

there are a couple of ways to handle this. one is to buy a 30 amp fused a/c disconnect and mount your 120 plug below it.it will handle 6 guage wire.they only cost 15 bucks and about 25 for a ground fault/box/cover you can buy 20 amp fuses and put a plug below it with a in use cover.that way you protect yourself and the wire.


:yeahthat: thats what i would do.

[Steve]

there are a couple of ways to handle this. one is to buy a 30 amp fused a/c disconnect and mount your 120 plug below it.it will handle 6 guage wire.they only cost 15 bucks and about 25 for a ground fault/box/cover you can buy 20 amp fuses and put a plug below it with a in use cover.that way you protect yourself and the wire.

the trailer plug should be housed in a weatherproof enclosure if it is outside.yes you can use wirenuts blue or grey) but put some di-electric grease inside them so they do not rust out. i just hope you are running 4 conductors if the system is 220 and separating your ground and neutrals.

i have some of the stuff here if you need it. free.you live maybe 10 minutes away.

That's the way I already went in the case of my well connection. I bought one of those AC disconnects to step it down (BTW the whole system is 110 3 conductor only). But I haven't hooked that connection up either because that brought up a whole new set of questions.

Is it permissible in a 110 only system to use one of the AC disconnects for hot and one the AC disconnects in the box for neutral to step the wire size down for both? I wasn't sure if this would pass inspection as these boxes are normally used for 220 applications.

[soggybtmboys]

Is it permissible in a 110 only system to use one of the AC disconnects for hot and one the AC disconnects in the box for neutral to step the wire size down for both? I wasn't sure if this would pass inspection as these boxes are normally used for 220 applications.[/quote]

I will look into my book, I do not remember that one off the top of my head. You cannot fuse your neutral, and I am not for certain but I do not think an inspector want you to put your neutral on a switch either. I will double check code book and get back with you.

[Steve]

So if you can run the neutral through the other side of the AC disconnect, then how do you step it down? Just use wire nuts with it?

[roger23]

So if you can run the neutral through the other side of the AC disconnect, then how do you step it down? Just use wire nuts with it?
split bolt or wire nut I prefer split bolts easier to add more connections if you need them and they don't work loose

[soggybtmboys]

Hey Steve,

Yeah sorry, you cannot have the ability to break your neutral. The grounded conductor (neutral) must not be switched nor cannot it be fused.

Double trouble has the best idea. I would go that route. It is cleaner and neater and less likely give an inspector to nit-pick about wire nuts or split bolts.

[Steve]

Now I'm really confused. I'm already using an AC disconnect which I thought is what Double Trouble proposed.

[soggybtmboys]

Now I'm really confused. I'm already using an AC disconnect which I thought is what Double Trouble proposed.

That box should have a place for the neutrals and grounds with a ground bar, don't put it thru the breaker/fuse terminations. Hope that clears it up as little.

[Steve]

Ah see there's my problem. The box only has one bar which I assumed was for grounds. Should I use that for my neutral and wire nut the grounds together?

[Rusher]

If your having an inspector involved you will need to install a weather proof breaker panel with a disconect.

[ih772]

It's for both the neutral and grounds. Some inspectors get picky if you put a nuetral and ground under the same screw (unless there isn't a choice) however. I'm pretty sure the box you have needs to be rated Type 3R.

[Steve]

The disconnect box I have is a simple one. It only has one bar and doesn't have a breaker, just a disconnect. I've had people tell me that on a purely 110 volt system I could tie the ground and neutral together but I just can't bring myself to do that as it doesn't seem intuitively right. I can't see putting fuses in for the 12" length of smaller wire that I will have. So what's the verdict? Tie the neutrals together on the bar and tie the grounds together with a wire nut?

[ih772]

Steve, I say this will all due respect. You might just want to defer this one to a licensed electrician. :)

[Steve]

Can't really afford one for "up north" work. Should be an easy enough problem to solve for somebody on here. Just looking for some advice.

[Jumpshootin']

What area "up north" Steve? Are you there now?

[roger23]

as I remember you can connect both ground and neutral if you have empty spaces the ground and neutral should not be in the same hole under the same set screw. the neutral buss bar should be grounded to the box they usually are I don't bave my books with me or I would give you the N.E.C number. I may be wrong but I don't think so may be some one else will have a book with them good luck;)

I should have read post #16 he basically said the same thing

[soggybtmboys]

Steve, I say this will all due respect. You might just want to defer this one to a licensed electrician. :)

Steve, I am a licensed electrician. Put the grounds and the neutrals on the same bar and run your hot leg thru the disconnect only. Keep the grounds and the neutrals separate on the bar and you will be fine. Sorry, I am almost 100% sure that will pass inspection, my book is at home currently down at the gf's.

[double trouble]

is your generator a 4 conductor system? I need manufacturer specs
if either it is or you have edison power you will need a 4 wire system.
would you would need to separate neutral and ground. most likely.
the cheap way is 2 a/c FUSED weatherproof disconnect. 2 phases for the trailer and one for whatever. there is room to separate the neutrals and grounds

they do make either an isolated neutral bar with a plastic riser or if you have one like that you can buy a ground bar to separate the grounds and neutrals.legally you can wirenut the neutrals and put the grounds under the existing bar..the purpose of all this is to give a short circuit a clean path back to the generator.
the reason a/c disconnects did not require this was because they are motor loads(like your well pump and have no neutral. there was an exception to the code. would any inspector ever call you on combining neutral and grounds. maybe not but I have been violated for it on rare occasion.

[Steve]

It is a Honda 3000 3 wire generator. All outlets have a hot, neutral, ground, and the generator itself has a screw on the outside that can be tied to an outside ground.

[Steve]

Steve, I am a licensed electrician. Put the grounds and the neutrals on the same bar and run your hot leg thru the disconnect only. Keep the grounds and the neutrals separate on the bar and you will be fine. Sorry, I am almost 100% sure that will pass inspection, my book is at home currently down at the gf's.

I have been told this before but not by a licensed electrician so I was unsure of the advice. Sounds like this is the way to go. I can use the same sort of scheme (an air conditioner disconnect) to step the wire size down for my trailer box as well.

[soggybtmboys]

You should be good to go Steve.

ps. if ya have any other problems, pm me and I can give ya my number, sometimes a little easier to talk something out on the phone than shooting posts back and forth.

[ih772]

The disconnect box I have is a simple one. It only has one bar and doesn't have a breaker, just a disconnect. I've had people tell me that on a purely 110 volt system I could tie the ground and neutral together but I just can't bring myself to do that as it doesn't seem intuitively right. I can't see putting fuses in for the 12" length of smaller wire that I will have. So what's the verdict? Tie the neutrals together on the bar and tie the grounds together with a wire nut?


Maybe I'm not following what you are trying to do. Are you saying that you're using a 15A or 20A 120V receptacle for plugging any sort of 120V equipment such as a saw, battery charger or any of the myriad of 120V devices into? That you would be feeding this receptacle off of the 30A breaker? This would be the same 30A breaker for your trailer service plug.

I'm pretty sure you may have an issue with the inspector if you don't provide the proper over-current protection for the smaller ampacity wire and device.

It's also a way to burn up the #14 or #12 (plus the receptacle) you'd use to feed it if you got close to drawing the 30 amps of the breaker you're feeding it from but didn't exceed 30 amps and trip the breaker. Whereas there would be a lot less of a chance of having that problem if you use a 15A breaker for a 15A recpt and #14 wire or a 20A breaker for a 20A recpt and #12 wire.

I'm trying to save you from that "Oh S**t" moment when thing's stop working and smoke comes pouring out of your recpt. :lol:

I'd hate to see you start accidentally burning things up because you didn't understand the importance of providing over-current protection. :yikes: :)

[roger23]

sounds like he is running power to a travel trailer or at least that is what I thought the trailer would have a fuse box/breaker panel .then it sounds like he is running a well pump off the generator

[MichiganHunter1971]

Hey there Steve I am a licensed electrician.. I have a place up by you I guess, Mine is in welston, anyway Everyone of these guys are telling you somewhhat right, but they are wrong also. Let m eknow if you need a hand just Pm me, I will give you my email addy, and I will draw up what uyou need to do, to do what you want. The term is ISOLATION. that is the key word everyone is neglecting to let you know about. Anyway if you want someone to let yo uknow, get ahold of me..