Can we trade bullpens with someone?

[TheMAIT]

6 runs in the 8th and 9th...are you kidding me? This pitching is absolutely ridiculous...

[Steve]

It's terrible, sickening. Problem is we can't trade some starting pitching for guys in the bullpen as most team don't have any excess there.

[TheMAIT]

Make that 7...what a bunch of bums...get rid of them all. Can't trust one single guy to come in there and get one out.
I am guessing that Minnesota will be close to passing us too by the end of the weekend....Look out Chicago!!

[TheMAIT]

Why do you leave Jones in when he is getting rocked....who cares if BobbySeay sucks too...couldn't be worse than what jones was doing... Leyland needs to get ripped on that decision...and these pitchers need to get ripped by Leyland.

[boots741]

Why do you leave Jones in when he is getting rocked....who cares if BobbySeay sucks too...couldn't be worse than what jones was doing... Leyland needs to get ripped on that decision...and these pitchers need to get ripped by Leyland.

Yep, your right, Seay has an .077 average against left handers, why would you have not brought him to face Nixon ????:rant:

[TheMAIT]

Even if they would have pinch hit for him....I would rather take my chances with Seay than a pitcher that just got lit up for 4-5 runs...whatever it was. Anything....don't just sit there and go with him because that was your initial decision and you don't want to look like you got it wrong. I love Leyland...but I think that all this genius and decision-master talk that you hear around here, especially last year, may get to him from time to time. I think he likes when he gets something right like pushing it to the limit with Jones.

[mahelinski]

Zoom zoom get well soon! :)

[erodrig4]

Why do you leave Jones in when he is getting rocked....who cares if BobbySeay sucks too...couldn't be worse than what jones was doing... Leyland needs to get ripped on that decision...and these pitchers need to get ripped by Leyland.


i would have liked to see him or grilli in there in the 8th, not Jones...why put in your closer, who hasn't been in since monday, and blew that save, and expect him to win the game for you?? 9th inning, maybe, but even then it's a shakey call, he's a contact pitcher, and him against the tribe who are hitting the ball great right now, isn't a good combo



expect more of this until Zumaya and Rodney get back...without them they don't have anyone that can come in and pitch 1 or 2 good innings to set up for jones to get the save without worrying. with those 2 back, and with this offense, if the starters can hold the other team to 3 or 4 runs for at least 5 innings (would like them to go longer than that) you can afford to bring in Seay, Grilli, ledezma, or byrdak for an inning or 2 and let zoom or rodney set up for jones. those 2 injuries really hurt...even with rodney healthy they were in ok shape...but both gone, its not going to look good..

[TheMAIT]

Rodney has always made me hold my breath and pray that he can only give up a couple of runs, but not the lead. Scary now that I am hoping he gets back soon.

[SNAPPY]

I rack this one up to poor managment on Mr. Leyland tonight. Should have left Ledezma in to finish the 8th with 2 outs and leading. Jones was confused himself (reaction in bullpen) on how soon he was called in. I'm not a huge fan of Jonesy in the first place, but to put him even earlier than he is usually put in is just asking for a beating and thats what the Indians did. Bobby Seay might not be the best but has been impressive lately and I felt he should have been put in (9th) and save Jones a little for later games. We need the DL list to shrink before we can expect any big gains in standings. Dont worry, they will come through for us!!! Just gotta hang on and ride along with 'em.

[Steve]

Yeah I just hate it when a manager feels compelled to use a closer just because he has one rather than sticky with somebody who is pitching well. Ledezma looked fine and he CAN pitch multiple innings. The best we can hope for is that one of the starters (Miner, Miller, DeLaCruz, or Durbin when Rogers comes back) can pick it up in the bullpen. I just can't see Zumaya coming back to his former self. As hard as he throws it's going to be tough.

[smokepants]

That game last night was a big let down. The bats were out and the Indians were all set to loose the game, I just can't get over the bottom of the 9th comeback. Why can't that happen to us this year, it did a few times last year. Maybe they should bring Miller back up to add to the pen. I still think letting Walker go might end up hurting us, and Mesa is no replacement for him. Just my rants:rant:
neil.

[wild bill]

and Mesa is no replacement for him. Just my rants:rant:
neil.

they need to let mesa go and resign him on the coaching staff. he would be great for pitching bp since thats all hes done for the rest of the american leauge so far this year.:rant: he needs to go and soon. last nights game was leylands fault. jones should have got the hook before the game was even that close. he looked bad from the get go. even when the guys come back from the dl i still dont think it will be enough. its about time to make a trade or try someone else from the minors. the pen needs help and it better be soon. things stay the way they are they will be out of it by mid july.

[TheMAIT]

Where did these guys come from tonight? Did we steal someone's bullpen? btw...Maggs is the man!!

[sweatyspartan]

Leyland is a COMPLETE idiot for not bringing in Seay. You have a pitcher that is absolutely killing lefties and you don't put him in against Nixon. Cleveland didn't have a righty on the bench to switch with. This was a complete no brainer and he crapped the bed.

great call Jim...:rolleyes:

[TheMAIT]

It's gotta be the socks....pull up those pants boys and show those stirrups....did well for Maggs tonight...looks classy too
:evil:

[William H Bonney]

Trade bullpen's, you say?????

Sure why not,,,,, I'll give ya my Yankee's bullpen,,, fair enough???:yikes:

I'm almost at the point where I can't watch it anymore.:(

[RJF]

After today's game they released Jose Mesa and re-activated Rodney.

[CMR]

Heard on ESPN that the Tigers and also the Indians are interested in a reliever....can't remember his name though.

Speaking of pitching, I've heard that Percival wants to return.:dizzy:

[Brown duck]

I see there are no posts regarding the bullpen stats from Sat or Sun's game - 0 runs allowed. Bullpens will always have their ups and downs - remember, the Indians are REAL good, and a couple key guys are on the DL (if Rodney is "key"); and hey, at least the starters aren't dropping like flies (like the Yanks are - another one down last night).

Do you think, though, that Bonderman could take two spots in the rotation?

[RJF]

Any team that recovers from a game like Friday night has my support. Pretty much unconditional. Leyland's comments were great. "you eat your salad and show up tomorrow."

[TheMAIT]

Grilli---rodney---grilli----rodney........trade Em.

[boots741]

Grilli is brutal this year, just does not have it, and has not since the beginning of the year.

[MSUICEMAN]

grilli is aweful, just waive him and find something better, it won't be hard. at least when rodney is on top of his game there is hope that he can figure it out. with grilli even when he's "on".... that doesn't mean much.

[augustus0603]

Anyone watch the Rangers game last week?

Grilli was outstanding, had been on 5 of 6 outings the week before. Bullpens are bullpens, they don't go out and not get scored on every outing. If they did, every reliever's era would be 0.

Grilli is a "mop-up" guy. And a pretty servicable one at that. Quality bullpen arms are hard to come by. I think we got a little spoiled last year.

[WILDCATWICK]

This thread is just too dang funny. Brown Duck your right on.

Too those that want to trade the bull pen. Let's here some realistic trades then.

We have the same dang pitching staff as last year minus Walker. Walker was great but even if someone does half as good as he did it won't effect the Tigers much with the offense that we have this year versus last year.

Be patient let some of these guys get healthy, then sit back and enjoy one of the best teams in the game with pitching & offense. Just give it some time. This is pretty dang normal for baseball...don't ya know?

[TheMAIT]

I would be on here everyday saying how much these two clowns stink...I just gets a bit old rehashing the facts until a performance like yesterday makes me laugh again.

Um....Grilli and Rodney weren't really that great last year either...Rodney better than Grilli...but both completely unreliable in big situations. Just because 2 guys had average years (and only one average year) doesn't mean you can't get rid of them because they absolutely blow the next.

I'd almost rather take a chance on finding some 20 year old in the minors to give a couple shots...maybe you would get another Zumaya gem....Maybe Zumaya Jr. or Robertson Jr. will turn out to be workable. Brydak stunk before this year for a long time...take a chance...don't stay with average-sucky players

[radiohead]

Zumaya is missing too...this is not the same bullpen as last year.




We have the same dang pitching staff as last year minus Walker. Walker was great but even if someone does half as good as he did it won't effect the Tigers much with the offense that we have this year versus last year.
pretty dang

[WILDCATWICK]

Just because 2 guys had average years (and only one average year) doesn't mean you can't get rid of them because they absolutely blow the next.




No team has all all-stars and they will never. They may make some moves and I fully trust Dombrowski's judgement as he's pretty much the best in the biz. You have to have some average guys on the payroll. Or you can't balance a budget and a team.

I could however do without Grilli. His talent is very average at best. But for the roll you have him for that's all you need. You don't pay him much and becuase he is a legacy to the organization he's about as good of guy as you could have on the team.

Rodney has some real talent. I wouldn't give up on a guy with a great change-up. A pitch that almost every pitcher dreams of having. Give the guy the ball and let him work. He has the stuff.

[WILDCATWICK]

Zumaya is missing too...this is not the same bullpen as last year.


He's obviously still on the staff. Injuries are part of the game. It's the same staff minus Walker.

It's hard to beleive that everyone is knocking the hell out of these guys when they are the same guys as last year but some are injured. Relax...this is baseball. There are at least 162 games in a teams season. That's alot of time. Let them get healthy and you may see the best pitching staff in baseball just like last year minus walker.

[radiohead]

I dont need to relax I'm not griping about the bullpen. Call it what you want its not the same pen without Zumaya I don't care what the reason is for his absence.
I am old school, I actually blame much of it on the starters not going deep into games. They make it too easy for Leyland to yank them in the 6th inning by falling apart.
Case in point was Bonderman the other day. Goes into the 7th inning with an 8-3 lead and less than 80 pitches. You're supposed to be the ace. An ace goes out in that situation and is a bulldog, completely shuts down the other team for 2 more innings and doesn't even tempt the manager to bring in the bullpen until the 9th.


He's obviously still on the staff. Injuries are part of the game. It's the same staff minus Walker.

It's hard to beleive that everyone is knocking the hell out of these guys when they are the same guys as last year but some are injured. Relax...this is baseball. There are at least 162 games in a teams season. That's alot of time. Let them get healthy and you may see the best pitching staff in baseball just like last year minus walker.

[WILDCATWICK]

Not referring to you. I'm referring to ALL who knock this staff and want to see them traded.

I still have not heard one trade proposal. But I've heard alot of complaints about this staff which is the basically the same staff as last year:dizzy:

[SuperBlackEagle2]

I dont need to relax I'm not griping about the bullpen. Call it what you want its not the same pen without Zumaya I don't care what the reason is for his absence.
I am old school, I actually blame much of it on the starters not going deep into games. They make it too easy for Leyland to yank them in the 6th inning by falling apart.
Case in point was Bonderman the other day. Goes into the 7th inning with an 8-3 lead and less than 80 pitches. You're supposed to be the ace. An ace goes out in that situation and is a bulldog, completely shuts down the other team for 2 more innings and doesn't even tempt the manager to bring in the bullpen until the 9th.
I agree, about the starters not going long enough. This trend has been taking place in MLB for a long time now. No matter what the situation is, starters almost never go beyond 90 -100 pitches. You see very few complete games anymore. I realize the reason is to keep your pitchers healthy. But winning games should also be somewhat of a priority??? I've seen too many games be blown by shotty middle relief / closing. If I were to try to think of a trade possibility...I would "possibly" think of trying to deal Casey or Thames for a solid 6,7,8th inning pitcher. I might get slammed for saying that, but pitching is #1..and if you can't hold leads you've got to shop around.

[radiohead]

I don't think Casey or Thames would drum up too much interest in the trade market. Casey and Thames are older by MLB standards, and only contending teams would be looking to add their bats to there lineups. Chances of a contending team giving up a solid reliever are slim.

More likely would be someone like Shelton getting dealt to a non-contender in the building stages of their orginization. A team who can afford to let Shelton struggle a bit at the MLB level to try and regain his April 2006 form.



I agree, about the starters not going long enough. This trend has been taking place in MLB for a long time now. No matter what the situation is, starters almost never go beyond 90 -100 pitches. You see very few complete games anymore. I realize the reason is to keep your pitchers healthy. But winning games should also be somewhat of a priority??? I've seen too many games be blown by shotty middle relief / closing. If I were to try to think of a trade possibility...I would "possibly" think of trying to deal Casey or Thames for a solid 6,7,8th inning pitcher. I might get slammed for saying that, but pitching is #1..and if you can't hold leads you've got to shop around.

[y2ba]

He's obviously still on the staff. Injuries are part of the game. It's the same staff minus Walker.

It's hard to beleive that everyone is knocking the hell out of these guys when they are the same guys as last year but some are injured. Relax...this is baseball. There are at least 162 games in a teams season. That's alot of time. Let them get healthy and you may see the best pitching staff in baseball just like last year minus walker.

Zumaya is obviously NOT on the staff at this point. And the more i hear Leyland talk...the more i believe he isnt coming back this yr at all. They need Fernando to step up. He pitched well down the stretch last yr...lets hope he starts throwing a bit better.Byrdak has done a good job. Jones...well he better shape it up. Like wildcatwick said..its a long yr..but its getting shorter every day. Until the staff gets well...lets hope the offense keeps up what they are doing. 1-5 the Tigers order is about as good as it gets right now:evil: And really fun to watch.

[augustus0603]

Zumaya is obviously NOT on the staff at this point. And the more i hear Leyland talk...the more i believe he isnt coming back this yr at all. They need Fernando to step up. He pitched well down the stretch last yr...lets hope he starts throwing a bit better.Byrdak has done a good job. Jones...well he better shape it up. Like wildcatwick said..its a long yr..but its getting shorter every day. Until the staff gets well...lets hope the offense keeps up what they are doing. 1-5 the Tigers order is about as good as it gets right now:evil: And really fun to watch.

The reason Leyland says that is they have literally no idea how he's healing. The cast comes off this week and then they'll know.

[boots741]

Grilli looked good again..:dizzy:

[y2ba]

Not referring to you. I'm referring to ALL who knock this staff and want to see them traded.

I still have not heard one trade proposal. But I've heard alot of complaints about this staff which is the basically the same staff as last year:dizzy:

Here is a trade proposal for you...Anyone who can get guys out:dizzy: Are we watching the same games? The bullpen is in shambles. If not for a potent offense the Tigers would be 10 games back. So here i say it..bring up,someone,trade for someone, do something...they are not getting the job done.

[TheMAIT]

Jonsey is sure making it exciting tonight...5 straight hits in the 9th....2 outs now.....CMON JONES!!!!!!!!!!!!

[augustus0603]

I love it. I'm just enjoying the last two seasons. It's awesome. I don't care what happens.

De La Cruz looked pretty good tonight. I'm sure he's heading right back down, though. That is if Kenny is going to pitch on Friday.

[WILDCATWICK]

Here is a trade proposal for you...Anyone who can get guys out:dizzy: Are we watching the same games? The bullpen is in shambles. If not for a potent offense the Tigers would be 10 games back. So here i say it..bring up,someone,trade for someone, do something...they are not getting the job done.


Here is a trade proposal for you...Anyone who can get guys out:

Can't give a proposal with names eh?

The bullpen is in shambles.

Same staff as last year minus Walker. Last year this was the best in the biz. Can't wait for Zoom to come back? When he does everyone else will get better because they will not be pitching in the same situation.

Are we watching the same games?

I don't know....I watch EVERY game on MLB.com So maybe your not seeing some of the games I am.


I'm not saying this staff could do better. Of course they can. But what I'm saying is that no one has presented a half decent proposal because I don't beleive there is on out there that makes sense. If you go out and get someone they better not have plans of being a closer. Unless you want to get rid of Zoom. So right now everything depends on Zoom. I guesse only a few of us see that while the rest wants immidiate change and results.

I love it. I'm just enjoying the last two seasons. It's awesome. I don't care what happens.

De La Cruz looked pretty good tonight. I'm sure he's heading right back down, though. That is if Kenny is going to pitch on Friday.

Well said Augustus. De La Cruz has struggled at times in the minors but he has the goods. I think the best thing for this organization is just to continue to rotate young talented arms in until one does something that makes you say "I can't send him back down".

The solution to the pitching issues is:

Time...allow players who you want here to get healthy.

Find potential replacements from with in. We have more than any other club to choose from....why the heck would anyone want to trade to get a rental replacement at the cost of our future????:dizzy:

[Brown duck]

It's not entirely the bullpen either - last night the starter gave up 5 runs in 5 innings against one of the worst clubs in the bigs. Besides, I think Jonesy just likes to make it interesting!

[GVSUKUSH]

I'm starting to think that we're not going to make any moves this year. Hope the bullpen falls into place, maybe move an extra starter to the pen (Durbin or Miller?? who knows.....) and try to out slug the other team and take Bondo, Rogers, and Verlander into the 7th or 8th inning.

[William H Bonney]

Zumaya is obviously NOT on the staff at this point. And the more i hear Leyland talk...the more i believe he isnt coming back this yr at all. They need Fernando to step up. He pitched well down the stretch last yr...lets hope he starts throwing a bit better.Byrdak has done a good job. Jones...well he better shape it up. Like wildcatwick said..its a long yr..but its getting shorter every day. Until the staff gets well...lets hope the offense keeps up what they are doing. 1-5 the Tigers order is about as good as it gets right now:evil: And really fun to watch.


Exactly,,,,,, who says Zoomers' coming back?? And what's he gonna be like if he does?? He certainly wasn't "lights out" before the injury. Seems like EVERY TEAM is lookin' for bullpen help around the deadline.

[fish eater]

Same staff as last year minus Walker. Last year this was the best in the biz. Can't wait for Zoom to come back? When he does everyone else will get better because they will not be pitching in the same situation.



I keep reading your posts and for the life of me, I can't figure out how you can keep saying this is the same staff as last year minus Walker. That's not true and everyone here knows it.

This is the same staff as last year minus Walker AND Zumaya. Yes, we all know Zoomer is still on the roster and still sitting around in the clubhouse and hanging out with the team. But he's been gone for over a month, and he's not available to pitch. And he's not going to be available to pitch until Mid-August at the earliest. Zoomer is the biggest loss to this bullpen. How can anyone not see that??? Our bullpen ERA is now close to 6.:yikes: If Zoomer was healthy, this could be a whole different story, but he's not. He's still in a cast. Without him, we don't have that intimitador that we had last year. We don't have that setup man that forces the opposing team to change strategies, or go to their bench earlier in the game. With a healthy J-Z last year, other teams knew that they absolutely had to score, or have the lead by the 6th-7th inning. Cuz once it got to the 8th (or 1 out in the 7th), the game was 103 miles per hour over. This year, that security blanket is gone, and look at the results. This bullpen is night and day different from 1 year ago today, and it's only missing 2 guys from 1 year ago.:sad:

However, I do agree with you WCW that we don't exactly have to make a trade. Only if the price is right, if a deal presents itself where you don't have to break the bank. And it's not a deal for a closer, we need a deal for a setup man that can get the lead to Jonesy. Basically we need to find a replacement for Zoomer. If Zoomer comes back 100% (that's a big if right now, what's his velocity gonna be like? He can't get by on his offspeed stuff) well then that's fine. Then we got 2 setup men for the 7th and 8th for the pennant race. You can never have enough shutdown relief pitching for a pennant race and the postseason. You know that. The candidates that everyone talks about are Gagne and Brad Lidge. However, what kind of stuff would we have to give up? Also, would either one of those 2 accept that role? I don't know. If a shutdown reliever can come from within, well then that's gravy. I don't care who it is, or where he comes from, I just wanna see someone come in and shut the door. Maybe it's this De La Cruz kid, maybe it's Miner, maybe it's Maroth when Rogers comes back, I don't care. Just someone please step up. Remember that game against Toronto, like the 2nd game of the season? Remember we had like a 9-0 lead, and our bully blew that enormous lead, and we had to hold on to win like 10-9 or something like that? Well, the bully was a problem then, and lo and behold, 69 games later, it's still an achilles heal today. Now, I know as well as anyone that it's still early. A MLB season is a Marathon, not a sprint. But, I don't wanna still be sitting here talking about the same frustrating problem 69 games from today. And you know darn well that neither does Jimmy. Somebody ante up and nip it in the bud now.:)

[y2ba]

I agree fisheater....when do the tigers decide if they need help in the bullpen?..hopefully not 60 games from now. And again...every time i hear "last yr these guys did great" i laugh my *** off. How many wins is Verlander allowed to carry over from last yr..for example? Absolutely notta. I can hear it now...Leyland going out to home plate during the pre-game conferance.... "Hey...our bullpen was realllllllyyyy good last yr...so if we take a lead into the 7th...you wanna just call it quits...or maybe you could tell your hitters to lay down..cuz we were really good last yr".

[augustus0603]

Who's to say if they even get a "lights out" bullpen, that they'll make it to the world series?

How many teams in the last 5 years have made back to back world series?

It's not an easy accomplishment. Just because they did it last year, doesn't mean they'll do it again. I for one, won't think any less of them if they don't make it.

Too many uncontrollable factors in baseball.

[Brown duck]

Who's to say if they even get a "lights out" bullpen, that they'll make it to the world series?

How many teams in the last 5 years have made back to back world series?

It's not an easy accomplishment. Just because they did it last year, doesn't mean they'll do it again. I for one, won't think any less of them if they don't make it.

Too many uncontrollable factors in baseball.

It's not always the best team, but the hottest team to get to the WS - look at the '07 Cards - barely a .500, then WS champs - got hot at the right time.

But the bullpen as currently constituted is not good enough for the post season - simply outscoring teams doesn't work come October.

[TheMAIT]

GRILLLIIIIIII____________2 run homer before recording an out...what a broken record....Can we just kidnap Maroth, let our starters pitch 6-7 innings per night, and then alternate Maroth one night for 2-3 innings and Durbin the next for 2-3....

Isn't it better than these clowns?


Tigers are coming back....Hopefully they will be able to at least make it to 8-6 if they aren't going to win so that Grilli can deservedly take this loss.

[WILDCATWICK]

No patience!! Wait for us to find sollutions internally. We have the arms in the minors. Some maybe ready now. Give them a chance to pitch some games. Zumya is throwing. Let's not be doing anything drastic. We have 1 month to set our staff have patience.

[TheMAIT]

I was trying to be funny.

Though I have never deviated from my opinion from last season that Grilli and Rodney absolutely blow and shouldn't be major league pitchers right now. Jones- I can deal with...slightly...but these other two are jokes. Did you see how embarrassed the one player...I think Morneau was to strike out to Grilli when they showed him in the bullpen???

[boots741]

Another arm in the bullpen ? http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070701/SPORTS02/70701013/1118/rss

[TheMAIT]

I was so ready to blast Grilli when he gave up the game tonight...he got so lucky to get out of that inning with the lead.

Man---is it sane to root for Rodney to come back early like they predict? Nah....I could never get that desperate.:lol:


WHYWHYWHYWHYWHYWHY.....Seay gets a 1-2 count and you change pitchers? He hung the ball sure...but to stick a cold pitcher in???? Love Leyland...but sometimes I think he just makes the unconvetional moves just to make them.....Tigers got so freaking lucky in both of those innings with Grilli in the 6th and Seay/Durbin in the 7th....

[Beave]

Every other outing Grilli seems to think he's pitching BP. Why he's on any major league roster let alone the roster of a division leading team is beyond me. I'm starting to wonder who he has pictures of Leyland doing something illegal with.

[augustus0603]

I was so ready to blast Grilli when he gave up the game tonight...he got so lucky to get out of that inning with the lead.

Man---is it sane to root for Rodney to come back early like they predict? Nah....I could never get that desperate.:lol:


WHYWHYWHYWHYWHYWHY.....Seay gets a 1-2 count and you change pitchers? He hung the ball sure...but to stick a cold pitcher in???? Love Leyland...but sometimes I think he just makes the unconvetional moves just to make them.....Tigers got so freaking lucky in both of those innings with Grilli in the 6th and Seay/Durbin in the 7th....

Yeah, how are they in first place?

[GVSUKUSH]

As bad as everyone thinks our bullpen is, right now, we're playing like the best team in baseball. Period.

[Due51]

Right on Kush.
I'm sure EVERYONE groaned when Jones took the mound last night (me and my son included). But the fact is, he's a good closer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's blown 4 this year. But he's also saved 25. Last night was the perfect game for a closer. 3-2 over the defending division champs.

[RJF]

That was two one-run games in two days. Anybody want to trade Todd Jones for a potentially washed up Texas closer, Gagne? Jones is doing it without following Zumaya's heat, which makes his accomplishments even better. He's approaching 300 saves.

Still not sure how he gets people out, but he gets 'em.

[fish eater]

The past few weeks, this whole month of July, the bullpen has really really improved. I know it's obvious if you look at the stats, but the bully has definately stepped it up. Right on fellas. Now, keep it up. I like Mcbride and the role he is in so far, and I'm pleased with Capellan so far. Hopefully Zoomer can come back here in a few weeks and we should be just dynamite. Kudos to the bully, but there's still a long way to go. It's gonna get tougher in August, and even tougher in September so let's keep it up Tigs!:)

[D-Fresh]

The pen comes through big again today, and Jones saves three one run games in one series to sweep the twinkies!

[TheMAIT]

I mean seriously...are you joking...HOW THE HELL IS GRILLI A PROFESSIONAL MLB PLAYER>>>>get these crappy pitchers off of this team....bring up minor pitchers....they HAVE to be better than this crap.

Send Rodney, Grilli, and Jones all home...ok...jones can stay for a bit...the other two have to go

[boots741]

Ha-Ha, MAIT you beat me too it, Grilli is an absolute embarassment out there. walks two plunks one with an 0-2 count.come on !!!!!!:rant:

[Steve]

Grilli will be the first to go upon the return of (God help us) Rodney or Zoom.

[TheMAIT]

3 Middle relievers....(not the usual sucky suspects of Grilli and Rodney)===6 runs given up in only 2.1 innings so far in game 2 tonight. Sweet...looks like another blown game given the fact that we likely have to rely on these guys when they blow a lead or when we are tied going into the 9th...

I think we might as well say the starters need to pitch 8 minimum a night to even have a shot at a game anymore...absolutely ridiculous:dizzy:

[TheMAIT]

What ever happened to Byrdak....or whatever his name was. He had his moments when he seemed decent...I know he was a career minor leaguer....but hell, what else can you lose?

[michigandeerslayer]

Grilli will be the first to go upon the return of (God help us) Rodney or Zoom.

It is scary isnt all the talk about rodney coming back, they said yesterday that he is going too go down to aaa for a rehab stint, well if they are smart he will stay there FOREVER

and that was funny steve

[Brown duck]

The bullpen had been one of the best around for the first 3 weeks in July - I guess it was only a matter of time before they came back down to Earth. We'll see what Rogers can do to spare them tonight.

[Brown duck]

What ever happened to Byrdak....or whatever his name was. He had his moments when he seemed decent...I know he was a career minor leaguer....but hell, what else can you lose?

Tigers' website has him on the 15-day DL

[DaveW731]

The bullpen had been one of the best around for the first 3 weeks in July - I guess it was only a matter of time before they came back down to Earth. We'll see what Rogers can do to spare them tonight.

I'll trade 3 good weeks in July for a season of some kind of consistant performance any time! Name one reliever who is currently active that you would consider reliable enough to call on to save a 1 or 2 run game, vs. to simply get a starter out of the game when he has hit his pitch count.
I like the idea of giving a promising AAA player a shot. How about an even more radical approach....the Tigs have a ton of offense and good depth at a few positions....what kind of reliever could they get in trade for a .300 hitter? Or even for an all-star catcher.......? Am I nuts?

[WILDCATWICK]

The whole mess last night probably could have been avoided if you had just let Vasquez finish the inning. I was not a big fan of pulling him right then for a new pitcher who you just don't know what will bring to the table as where Vasquez was pitching very well.

I'm going to the game tonight. Hopefully Rodgers can pull it together tonight.

AS far as trading one of our .300 hitters for a releiver...put down the crack pipe. There are other things that we can do besides trading the heart and sould of what has made this team successful this year.

Too many of you are in a panic. Relax. They have the arms. They need to get healthy and some of them our young and need to go thru these bumbs. Alot of nights it's someone differnet that didn't come thru. Such as Durbin. He's solid and you guys are just in a panic.....or maybe not, as I remember most here ripped on him after his first couple of starts because they knew nothing about his game. :lol:

We're going to fine. Don't be suprised if Rodney is a big part of it. I can't beleive how many think he's worthless. His velocity on his fastball was down because of his arm and that had been forcing him to rely on the change up more and to not thow the fastball for strikes because he had no confidence in a fastball that wasn't working. The deadlies pitch in baseball is the change-up. He has a great one.

[D-Fresh]

The deadlies pitch in baseball is the change-up. He has a great one.

"The deadliest pitch in baseball is a well-located fastball."
-the great Rod Allen

[WILDCATWICK]

"The deadliest pitch in baseball is a well-located fastball."
-the great Rod Allen

That's batting practice unless you can throw something else. Ask Miller that. THat kid has a great breaking ball. When he get's enough confidence to throw it more than 5 times an outing we will start to see his true potential.

Everyone has a fastball (except the gambler:lol:) but a change up few have and it's deadly. How many strike three change ups did we strike out or ground out on last night? A ton because they sit on the fastball. Most batters are fastball hitters.

[Brown duck]

Most batters are fastball hitters.

True, but good hitters make a living off mistakes - look at Mo Rivera's prime - cut fastball was the only pitch he would throw, and still wouldn't get hit. With a little movement, and good placement, a fastball is the best pitch in the game. Fastball sets up the changeup, and vice versa.

But I suppose the same can be said for the change up - Trevor Hoffman relies almost entirely on his, but it has great late movement and precise placement. Still, given the choice between a pitcher with a great fastball or a great change up, I'll take the flame-thrower.

[WILDCATWICK]

True, but good hitters make a living off mistakes - look at Mo Rivera's prime - cut fastball was the only pitch he would throw, and still wouldn't get hit. With a little movement, and good placement, a fastball is the best pitch in the game. Fastball sets up the changeup, and vice versa.

But I suppose the same can be said for the change up - Trevor Hoffman relies almost entirely on his, but it has great late movement and precise placement. Still, given the choice between a pitcher with a great fastball or a great change up, I'll take the flame-thrower.


And I'd take a guy who throws 5 miles less with his heat but has a change up too. There are not enough guys that can do that and the ones that can keep the batters off balance and are much more consistant over a much longer period. Nothing wrong with a 100 mph it's "sexy" and exciting. But if that's all you have and no movement, you won't last long...as I said it becomes batting practice even at 100mph

[Brown duck]

And I'd take a guy who throws 5 miles less with his heat but has a change up too. There are not enough guys that can do that and the ones that can keep the batters off balance and are much more consistant over a much longer period. Nothing wrong with a 100 mph it's "sexy" and exciting. But if that's all you have and no movement, you won't last long...as I said it becomes batting practice even at 100mph

So, we agree?

[WILDCATWICK]

I don't know do we? I'll say this. I don't know a change up pitcher who doesn't have a fastball but I know ton's of fastball pitchers with out a change up.

[smokepants]

If Rodney can get his crap together we all know he HAD one of the best change ups in the league last year. If he can get healthy and pitch like he can that would be a huge boost to the pen. Maybe all he needs is to get interested in the game and not walk around so much after someone gets on base. We still have time this season to fine tune before the post season.

neil.

[Brown duck]

I don't know do we? I'll say this. I don't know a change up pitcher who doesn't have a fastball but I know ton's of fastball pitchers with out a change up.

I meant about the fastball without movement - BP.

[boots741]

:rant:

[D-Fresh]

Sure glad I am at work, and not at home! I can just picture myself throwing a fastball across the living room using my remote as the ball. I am trying not to imagine how ugly that last play of the game was right now....:rant:

[boots741]

Well, unfortunately I just got home to see it...wish I hadn't...

[yooperkenny]

.... I am trying not to imagine how ugly that last play of the game was right now....:rant:

Yeah, it was ugly enough on ESPN.com virtual gamecast.... :SHOCKED:

[ckhanna]

F(*&^)n Miner!!!! I hate our pitching!!!! I hope Verlander is pissed

[michigandeerslayer]

I think that is where miner is going and that is scary because that means they will bring back rodney:yikes:

[TheMAIT]

On the radio this afternoon I think they said that the Tigers' bullpen has blown 16 games already...not sure if that was blown saves...or that the bullpen has blown 16 leads. Sure you are going to have a number of them during the course of the season...but as they said on the radio...that is 10% of the total games for the entire season...and we are only 100 games through.

As some of the smart alecs on here are quick to point out...sure some nights they are going to do decently. They get paid enough and it is their job---so you hope they can from time to time. But to consistently have no faith that you can make it through 2-3 innings without blowing a 2,5, or what was it- 7 run lead a while back?----that is ridiculous.

Grilli really sucks...I have never had faith in Rodney and never think he looks like he has any confidence...and the rest are really just minor league quality. Jones...I can handle. He can get it done from time to time---and he is the best option we will have at least for this year. I don't know what to do. Zumaya didn't look great early this year either---I agree. Personally, I don't think Rodney and Zumaya coming back will give us a huge boost in win percentage....Maybe next year for Zumaya---I just don't think it will be a huge change with him on the team coming back from that long of a stretch.

I would rejoice if they traded the Grilli Rodney combo....Ohh yeah, build up on the Rodney hype....get those other teams interested...."his stuff is soooooooooooooo great"

[Brown duck]

Again, all of you are missing the good from yesterday's game - the Tigs are back in World Series form!

[Tracker83]

Bullpen... You ARE the weakest link! GOODBYE!!

[boots741]

Well, so far doesnt look like the bullpen is going to be the problem tonight.:dizzy:

[TheMAIT]

I agree....I don't think there will bullpen comments when they get brought in in the 2nd inning....Robertson...you are the starters' weakest link...Goodbye. Maroth?

[TheMAIT]

:lol:Well, Grilli is in with a 2 run lead.... Another blown opp and another loss for the Tigs....here it comes




Whoa....that was too fast....make that only a one run lead now...geeez

[michigandeerslayer]

I agree....I don't think there will bullpen comments when they get brought in in the 2nd inning....Robertson...you are the starters' weakest link...Goodbye. Maroth?

I just said the same thing to my father-in-law

[wild bill]

:lol:Well, Grilli is in with a 2 run lead.... Another blown opp and another loss for the Tigs....here it comes




Whoa....that was too fast....make that only a one run lead now...geeez

tied game. grilli has got to go.:rant:

[TheMAIT]

I know you can't count on him consistently....to blow the game every night.... but what is he averaging now? Almost an earned run every inning and a half or so?

If he gets the win tonight---I'm going to snap.

[GVSUKUSH]

the wheels have come off the bullpen........

[TheMAIT]

This isn't MLB or minor league quality...this is just flat out ridiculous and embarassing.

[SuperBlackEagle2]

I leave the house, and the game is tied. I get to work, settle in for a nice 12 hour shift...check to see how my Tigers ended up. Wow. This is getting to be a daily routine. I am starting to just expect to see the box score say that the Tigers bullpen gave up 6, 7, or 8 runs in the eighth inning every game. The bats are not going to be able to take the Tigers into October, without a LITTLE bit of help. Something has got to change.

[radiohead]

Once again everyone glosses over the fact that the starter is where the problem began. The offense gives Miller a 3-1 lead in the top of the 6th and he can't get out of the 6th.
The other night Bonderman had a lead 3 seperate times and every time turned around and gave up the lead.
This is not to absolve the bullpens lousy performance, but I can't think of too many championship teams who relied on their bullpen to pitch 3 and 4 scoreless innings a game.

[SuperBlackEagle2]

Well like I said in my post, I didn't get to watch the rest of the game. But according to what I see, Miller is only charged with giving up 2 runs. (Grilli-2, Byrdak-5, and Capellan-1) When the bullpen gives up that many, there isn't even a chance of coming back. Miller didn't get the loss, Grilli did. I say, if Miller gets in trouble...let HIM lose it. (Or let him bail himself out) Don't put the ball in the hand of a known loser like Grilli. They keep pulling the starter in the 5th and 6th innings, and I've said before that I don't agree with that move. I know it's a long season, and they want to keep pitch counts low..but these guys need to start going 7 or 8 innings. I guarantee you that guys like Nolan Ryan or Mr. Jack Morris laugh at how modern day pitchers only have to pitch 5 or 6 innings per start nowadays. It's a joke. As soon as they put a couple of runners on in the 5th or 6th, here comes Captain Hook to bring in Captain Horse's *****. That's my opinion.

[TheMAIT]

I would be wary of Miller and to an extent, Verlander...getting to the 110+ counts, but they should get conditioned to go longer---I agree.

If I am correct, it was 3-1 when Miller got pulled. He had either given up a walk or a single to lead off the inning. So I agree, he had only given up one to the point, let him hang in there to face a couple more batters. Tigers were racking up the double plays behind him-why not let him get another.

Sucks that a pitcher gets charged with an earned run like that when he lets a man on, gets pulled, and the bum behind him gets repeatedly rocked.

[tubejig]

I would be wary of Miller and to an extent, Verlander...getting to the 110+ counts, but they should get conditioned to go longer---I agree.


The pitchers that you are referring to are raw when it comes to this game. They have no business going farther than what they have gone with their experience. That includes Verlander as well. Andrew Miller would be better off coming up here a year from now as opposed to today. But the front office seems to think that this is the year.:lol::D

[SuperBlackEagle2]

The pitchers that you are referring to are raw when it comes to this game. They have no business going farther than what they have gone with their experience. That includes Verlander as well. Andrew Miller would be better off coming up here a year from now as opposed to today. But the front office seems to think that this is the year.:lol::D
Come on. These guys have been pitching all of their lives. They might all be relatively new to MLB, but they are not new to pitching. They threw more than 5 innings per game on every level, other than in the pros. I'm not saying push them 'til they break. But Leyland should give them a chance to work themselves out of a jam in the middle innings, before handing the ball over to the meatballers. If he keeps doing it, the Tigers will be bowhunting in October instead of playing for a championship.

[smokepants]

Last year Verlander had troubles and had to sit a bit because of his arm getting tired. Miller is not used to pitching so many innings and same with Verlander last year. I think those pitchers are so good that the Tigers want to take it easy with them so they don't blow their arms out. Those two are the future of the Detroit Tigers and they are going to baby them to get their full potetial.
It seems like we need over 6 runs to win most games and with our pen we will loose the 2-1, 3-2, etc games. The trade deadline is comming up so maybe the mgmt. will do something.

[Brown duck]

I say, if Miller gets in trouble...let HIM lose it. (Or let him bail himself out)

Normally I like that idea too - I think that was kinda the mentality last night letting Bonderman get shelled - but I also understand Leyland's decision - getting the young kid outta there before he gets a chance for the loss - never know how a really bad outing is going to hurt a pitcher like that.

[radiohead]

Looks like Ken Rosenthal read my post.


http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2007/07/rosenthal_on_wdfn_starters_to.html


Once again everyone glosses over the fact that the starter is where the problem began. The offense gives Miller a 3-1 lead in the top of the 6th and he can't get out of the 6th.
The other night Bonderman had a lead 3 seperate times and every time turned around and gave up the lead.
This is not to absolve the bullpens lousy performance, but I can't think of too many championship teams who relied on their bullpen to pitch 3 and 4 scoreless innings a game.