Rockford dam studied for hydropower prospects

[Hamilton Reef]

Rockford dam studied for hydropower prospects

http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ssf?/base/news-35/117552529288070.xml&coll=6

04/02/07 By Matt Vande Bunte The Grand Rapids Press

ROCKFORD -- The city plans to study creating hydroelectric power at the downtown Rogue River dam. The idea is one of several goals included in budget planning for the fiscal year that starts this summer.

"It was a power-generating dam at one time," said Councilman Neil Blakeslee, who is pushing for the study. "The technology seems to be growing by leaps and bounds.

The Rogue River Electric Light and Power Co. set up shop near the dam in 1903, inside a building that now houses the Rockford Area Historical Museum. It held two large turbines powered by the river.

That year, G.A. Krause opened a shoe factory in Rockford that now is known as Wolverine World Wide.

Museum curator Kathy Cornwell said that, when the factory opened, there wasn't enough electricity for it and the village.

Cornwell said the power house was moved across the road to its current location at 11 E. Bridge St. in 1937, when Consumers Energy became the primary power source. Since then, the power capacity of the river has gone untapped.

"All that water goes over there, and the power from it is not used. It's wasted," Cornwell said. "It's always there. It's free. It's non-polluting."

City Manager Michael Young said a consultant will analyze the river's flow to determine how much power a spinning turbine could produce with today's technology and what it might cost.

Rockford leaders envision the river providing "supplemental power" for municipal functions or, perhaps, the whole city.

Dan Bishop, a Consumers Energy spokesman, said "it's never as simple as it sounds" because government licensing and regulation is involved.

Still, "the renewable energy market has really expanded and strengthened in recent years," he said. "Hydro plants are increasingly seen as an attractive asset."

Most of the electricity provided to 1.8 million Consumers customers comes from coal plants, but the utility owns 13 hydroelectric plants that supply 1 to 2 percent of total demand, Bishop said.

[Steelhead Addict]

That's a "great" idea.

I'd like to see how they are going to cover their costs with the mid summer's (winter) flows that occurs on the rogue.


how about "wasting" the money by cleaning up the mess that the dams created.

[bombcast]

They should mandate fish passage if a hydro goes in.

[Flyfisher]

How about removing the dam entirely? But we all konw that will never happen because its Rockford's version of the Magic Kingdom.

[thousandcasts]

They should consider putting a fish ladder in there regardless. Hell, I'd volunteer my time to help them build it...

[gregm]

Coming from a company that has a FERC licensed project -- It is VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, difficult to obtain a FERC license on a project, new or old (a FERC license is required for a Hydro power project)

In order to obtain the license, it is open to public comment and input, that means lots and lots of river groups will jump in and ask for supplemental projects (such as the aforementioned fish passage). These requests are usually granted and thus the project becomes too expensive to complete unless its generates lots of megawatts, which small dams do not.

I would seriously doubt Rockford would get the license nor be able to afford the requirements that would come along with it.

[TSS Caddis]

They should consider putting a fish ladder in there regardless. Hell, I'd volunteer my time to help them build it...

I'll watch from the Red's as I sample a creme brulee and sip 100 year old Grand Marnier.

[Oldgrandman]

They should consider putting a fish ladder in there regardless....

I am on the fence there.
Against: There are some big browns up stream and it is a good river for them.
Most of the rainbows they plant up there probably end up in Lake Michigan anyways if they survive on the way down. They just cannot get back upstream wich doesn't bother me. After they pass through GR I don't care where they go.

For: It would however, open a lot of access to the river for steelhead if a ladder were put in. And that would be hard to turn down :) .

[thousandcasts]

It just dawned on me that yesterday was April 1st...think about it.

[bigbob]

http://www.rockfordsquire.com/032907/images/AF-fish%20ladder.jpg
PROJECT COMPLETED - Those who have been inconvenienced by the construction of the new Rockford dam fish ladder will be pleased to know the ladder is finished and working. Anglers should enjoy the new opportunities for their sport.

http://www.rockfordsquire.com/032907/images/AF-mackerel.jpg
IN TRAINING - Fish do not know naturally how to navigate a man-made structure such as a fish ladder. These hybrid salmon will be taught to jump the ladder, then released into the waters of the Rogue. Other fish will learn by their example and in turn teach their offspring.

Just in time for the spring salmon run, the Department of Natural Resources (DNR) has completed the long-anticipated installation of a fish ladder to the Rockford dam.
The project has been in the planning stages for years, but recent budget constraints delayed the construction. With the City of Rockford's reconstruction at Peppler Park setting an example, the State of Michigan applied for, and received, a grant from the State of Illinois for funds to complete the work.

"It's really a crowning jewel of this community," said officials. The ladder will allow Rockford's resident salmon population to migrate to higher waters and perhaps enhance opportunities for anglers.

Proponents of the project argued that the influx of the downstream fish would upset the delicate balance in the protected trout waters of the Rogue River upstream.

DNR officials said this is in fact not the case. "More fish means more fish. That's pretty clear in my opinion," said Bob, the director of fisheries in this region of the state. Bob has recently made headlines with his new book on invasive species in Michigan - If You Can't Beat Them, Eat Them; A cook's guide to zebra mussels, sea lampreys and Emerald Ash Borers.

Bob said the engineering phase of the project was the most expensive and time-consuming.

"We had a name for the structure, but we couldn't quite work out the technical details. A fish ladder is a way to allow fish to navigate over a man-made dam. There isn't any blueprint in nature that can help us out with a concept like that."

Bob said eventually the engineers decided to use ladder-like "steps" to allow the fish to work their way up the height of the dam gradually before finally reaching the waters above.

"We're pretty proud of our thinking outside the box on this one," Bob gloated.

The DNR will closely monitor the success of their effort to expand angling opportunties for sportsmen and women in the Rockford area. If environmental concerns prove that the ladder is a danger to the ecosystem as it currently exists, there is a back up plan for the ladder.

"In a worst case scenario, we could modify the fish ladder and work on our concete water slide option," Bob said. "There is nothing but good to come from this plan

[Oldgrandman]

TC, we should expect it out of you, not a moderator! ;)
The thread and story are dated April 2nd as far as I can tell.
Now bigbob I think has photo shop, well done I might add!

[FiberOptic]

Is there a need for the ladder, because you guys are running out of room down below? :rolleyes:

[bigbob]

lol i found this online here http://www.rockfordsquire.com/:D

[thousandcasts]

Is there a need for the ladder, because you guys are running out of room down below? :rolleyes:

No, Mr. Rolleyes, maybe some of us would actually like to see some of those fish escape what goes on down below. Perhaps you have some grand ideas you'd like to contribute to this thread?

[FiberOptic]

No, Mr. Rolleyes, maybe some of us would actually like to see some of those fish escape what goes on down below. Perhaps you have some grand ideas you'd like to contribute to this thread?

Thus far, I havn't seen anything very contributive in conjunction with this thread. I simply asked a question is to why there is a need for the ladder. It could be a number of reasons. Well it seems that you have answered one of them. ;)

Checkmate.

[bombcast]

uhhhh- so steelies would blast up to the headwaters, thus increasing the chances for a significant amount of natural reproduction?

[thousandcasts]

Yep, there's some nice cold creeks up there that don't open to fishing until the end of April--plenty of time for a few steelhead to get in and get out.

[FiberOptic]

"uhhhh- so steelies would blast up to the headwaters, thus increasing the chances for a significant amount of natural reproduction?"

I was thinking more in line of invasive species migrating in the water system.

[Flyfisher]

I was thinking more in line of invasive species migrating in the water system.
What, like the native chestnut lampreys and native redhorse sucker? OH NO...a native smallmouth found its way up a fish ladder!!! I did see a group of zebra mussels getting chased up the 6th Street fish ladder by a school of gobies the other day, however;)

"Big Bob"-:lol: Thanks for the chuckle...very good humor:lol:

[FiberOptic]

What, like the native chestnut lampreys and native redhorse sucker? OH NO...a native smallmouth found its way up a fish ladder!!! I did see a group of zebra mussels getting chased up the 6th Street fish ladder by a school of gobies the other day, however;)

Hmmm, although humorous, who's to say I was talking about that kind of species. Humans maybe? Who knows.

I like your sarcasm though, you remind me of, well.... me.;)

[Fishndude]

It is not true that adding a hyrdo-electric generating dam would not pollute. It may not created chemical pollution, or add sewage to the river; but it WOULD obstruct the water flow more, and it WOULD contribute to thermal pollution. Just look at the Big Manistee, Muskegon, and Ausable rivers. They all have hydro-electric generating dams, and they all get much warmer in Summer than they would if those dams were not there. In fact, they get so warm that those rivers are very marginal Trout waters below the dams. And since neither Consumers Energy, nor the State of Michigan seems to care that the last long-term lease agreement between them required Consumers to add bottom-draw equipment to the dams, to keep the rivers below cooler in Summer; I say NO HYDRO DAM ON THE ROGUE.

As for adding a fish ladder; it would allow not only Steelhead, but also Salmon to migrate upstream of the dam. Those fish will tear up a river, and the parr would compete with the Trout, and other species which live there, for food. Again I say NO HYDRO DAM ON THE ROGUE.

The Rogue is essentially a put and take fishery at this time, and is very close to a major metropolitan area. It provides a great fishery, which is obviously utilized by a large number of people. It is working just fine in that capacity, and there is not really any good reason to change the situation.

[Flyfisher]

It is not true that adding a hyrdo-electric generating dam would not pollute. It may not created chemical pollution, or add sewage to the river; but it WOULD obstruct the water flow more, and it WOULD contribute to thermal pollution. Just look at the Big Manistee, Muskegon, and Ausable rivers. They all have hydro-electric generating dams, and they all get much warmer in Summer than they would if those dams were not there. In fact, they get so warm that those rivers are very marginal Trout waters below the dams. And since neither Consumers Energy, nor the State of Michigan seems to care that the last long-term lease agreement between them required Consumers to add bottom-draw equipment to the dams, to keep the rivers below cooler in Summer; I say NO HYDRO DAM ON THE ROGUE.

As for adding a fish ladder; it would allow not only Steelhead, but also Salmon to migrate upstream of the dam. Those fish will tear up a river, and the parr would compete with the Trout, and other species which live there, for food. Again I say NO HYDRO DAM ON THE ROGUE.

The Rogue is essentially a put and take fishery at this time, and is very close to a major metropolitan area. It provides a great fishery, which is obviously utilized by a large number of people. It is working just fine in that capacity, and there is not really any good reason to change the situation.
Not that I am necessarily in favor of a retrofitted hydro-dam on the Rogue, the dam is already there and the water already gets warmer than the Muskegon or Manistee because it sits and boils in a shallow, silt bottomed, useless impoundment. I am all in favor of a fish ladder and let those nasty kings climb it, spawn, and die up river. The additonal food source of salmon eggs certainly would help the fish bulk up for winter:lol: As far as competing with the trout upstream of the dam, I believe the out-migrating parr would provide an excellent food source for the brown trout. Look at rivers like the PM and Muskegon where the resident fish share space with kings and steelhead? Other than the huge crowds that ascend the river twice a year, the resident trout population is intact and in seemingly good shape. It sure would be nice for those poor steelhead and salmon trapped below the dam to have somewhere to go, other snagged out and thrown on a stringer;)

[bigbob]

"Big Bob"-:lol: Thanks for the chuckle...very good humor:lol: i thought it was funny we were just talking about a ladder and i seen this.now thousandcasts don't have to volunteer his off time to build it (I did );) :lol:

[FiberOptic]

I am all in favor of a fish ladder and let those nasty kings climb it, spawn, and die up river.

I don't want to smell them nasty kings decaying in my front yard!:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[thousandcasts]

Frankly, I could give a *&^% less about the "upstream trout" population. Those fish are planted and stream rainbows are basically a waste of hatchery space. Those freakin' rainbows should be the kind that migrates out to the lake, not the kind that sits in the upper river for 6 months before dying. It'd do my heart good to see a bunch of steelhead ripping up the gravel in some of those upper stretches...and filling those cooler spots with young parr that'll grow up to be fun, wild eight-pounders or larger.

[steelie]

Good Day,

Hmmm... I personally do not see a fish ladder ever going in ont he Rogue. I believe it will actually face too much opposition with regard to keeping the upper river the way it is as a non-anadromous fishery. Also, I think a majority of opposition will come from property owners on the upper river not wanting all those Clydes trespassing and littering their property with beer cans, snack wrappers and other trash. They have seen what property owners on the lower river deal with... The lower Rogue is essentailly a put and take fishery anyway At this time I do not see any real advantage in the installation of a fish ladder there.

Steelie

[FiberOptic]

Also, I think a majority of opposition will come from property owners on the upper river not wanting all those Clydes trespassing and littering their property with beer cans, snack wrappers and other trash.

Thanks for pointing that out. It seems that my "Mr. Rolleyes" sarcasm has pointed things in the right direction. It's bad enough that I spend at least 2 weekends during trout season, cleaning up all the trash on alot of the upper stretch (and sometimes down below). As far as the Clydes or whatever some of you like to call them, they can stay down below the dam where they belong.:)

[Flyfisher]

Frankly, I could give a *&^% less about the "upstream trout" population. Those fish are planted and stream rainbows are basically a waste of hatchery space.
Steve, unless things have changed over the past couple of years, there is a pretty good population of resident browns, with some large enough you could actually tail them. These browns utilize in the fall the same small, cool feeder creeks the steelhead should be spawning in;)

[Oldgrandman]

Let data speak on the Rogue River rainbows.
Here is some info I got. It clearly shows, and you can look up the planting dates on the DNR site, that RAINBOWS planted ABOVE the Rockford dam (12 mile & Summit) were caught by me in GR. Silver fiesty lake run fish.
I couldn't tell the difference from any other steelhead I caught. Those rainbows planted today are no doubt doing the same thing these fish did back then. Why wouldn't they. And the rainbows have no fin clips these days. So you catch an unclipped fish, it could be one of them.
Didn't anyone else ever participate in this program and have such information? It was enlightening to me.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/533/Fin_clips.jpg

[FiberOptic]

Those rainbows planted today are no doubt doing the same thing these fish did back then.

So based upon the data, it seems that these rainbows are migrating (dropping) out of the upper river for a reason, because it might be too warm? If this is the case, then the theory of cooler waters (especially the very few creeks that feed the Upper Rogue, along with drain ditch spring water), are not sufficient enough to support "true" wild trout habitat. Hmmm interesting.....:o

And for those Kings, by the time they would reach one of those few feeder creeks, their gills would probably melt from that 70-75 degree stagnant water coming down.

[thousandcasts]

So based upon the data, it seems that these rainbows are migrating (dropping) out of the upper river for a reason, because it might be too warm? If this is the case, then the theory of cooler waters (especially the very few creeks that feed the Upper Rogue, along with drain ditch spring water), are not sufficient enough to support "true" wild trout habitat. Hmmm interesting.....:o

Uh, no, not necessarily...do your homework and you'll see that up until '94 the DNR used to plant steelhead ABOVE the dam at the 12 Mile/Summit plant site. Of course those fish would migrate out of there, hence--maybe, why OGM's fish he turned in, in '91, would show that plant site? After '94, they started planting Michigan strain rainbows (steelhead) at Jericho Rd.

[bombcast]

I bet I personally liberated dozens of fish from the lower river into the upper river. Got lots of flack for it. Pop a fish below the dam/release it above.

I'd do it again in a heartbeat if I still fished there...

[thousandcasts]

I bet I personally liberated dozens of fish from the lower river into the upper river. Got lots of flack for it. Pop a fish below the dam/release it above.

I'd do it again in a heartbeat if I still fished there...

Oh, it's still being done...trust me on that one. ;)

[FiberOptic]

After '94, they started planting Michigan strain rainbows (steelhead) at Jericho Rd.

???? My homework wasn't the only one late.:lol:

http://www.michigandnr.com/fishstock/default.asp They have been planting "Michigan Strain" rainbows as far as the stock database goes back to 79' in most locations on the Rogue. (Including Jericho Rd.), and yes "Michigan Strain" up ABOVE the dam also. ( I was aware of that. )

I mistated OGM for talking about RAINBOWS, not Michigan Strain Steelhead. But it is obvious the DNR plant several other strains of fish in the Rogue. I had to download the picture & x8 zoom to see the word "Steelhead" next to the date that he caught the fish.

So, I guess we are both wrong.

[thousandcasts]

OK, for the sake of argument, I'll assume that one of us or both being wrong is a matter of context, however OGM's reported stated "steelhead" which for stocking purposes are reffered to as Rainbow Trout Michigan Strain. Based on the stocking data base, there hasn't been a plant of Michigan strain rainbows above the dam since '94. So, those fish in his creel report weren't outgoing resident strains such as the Eagle lake or what not, but rather Michigan strain steelhead smolts that were supposed to migrate out. One would have to believe that some of those lesser strains would follow the packs down river, as may be the case in other rivers, but the odds of those fish turning up in a current creel study would be slim, I'd have to believe.

So, we're either both wrong, both right or somewhere in the middle depending on which context we want to look at it. ;)

My whole point in any of this is: no matter how much it gets sugar-coated, the steelhead fishery is getting hit harder than it ever has IMO. If someone says that the pressure is the same now as it was five years ago, then they need to seek therapy immediately. I'm talking on all rivers as a whole, not just the Rogue. However, plant numbers have stayed the same for over 20 years and we can't rely on the DNR to plant more since the hatchery situation is maxed out (even though they still can find room for more freakin' eagle lake 'bows) nor will they even acknowledge that the pressure on the fishery is up even though anyone with two eyes can clearly see that it is. What does that leave us? Any and all ways possible to increase natural reproduction.

[Trout King]

I love stream trout, but I also like steelhead. If they put a fish ladder in I don't see how it would affect the resident trout too much. It would somewhat, but I fish a few streams where they do get into the upper reaches where browns reside. I have caught a lot of fairly large browns in these streams, and trully don't believe steelhead smolts competing for food is a huge issue. There are plenty of crayfish, minnows, chubs, flies, and other forage for the fish. Also, those big stream browns will eat some of the smolts and par. I don't know if it is a good or bad idea yet, but there would be some benefits and some drawbacks to opening up the entire stream to salmon and steelhead. Less people downstream, and upstream, and people would still flood the dam. Natural reproduction would be increased, as TC mentioned there are some cold streams in there that they could get to.

On the other hand, it woud be trashed and some of the people that live on the other side would have to deal with the trash, rippers and tresspassers. I visited another stream this weekend to get some pictures of fish, and ended up picking up beer cans and trash. Those things don't belong on beautiful rivers, and I think the Rogue is a very pretty river above the dam, but go take a look downstream and look at the beaten paths, and all the trash left from the steelhead Clydes. The fish ladder would open more water to fishing, and also increase some natural production, but is it worth the hassel of building it and having the people upstream have to deal with the bank bandits for 4 months out of the year?

[Oldgrandman]

So based upon the data, it seems that these rainbows are migrating (dropping) out of the upper river for a reason, because it might be too warm? If this is the case, then the theory of cooler waters (especially the very few creeks that feed the Upper Rogue, along with drain ditch spring water), are not sufficient enough to support "true" wild trout habitat. Hmmm interesting.....:o

And for those Kings, by the time they would reach one of those few feeder creeks, their gills would probably melt from that 70-75 degree stagnant water coming down.

Look, brookies survive in the upper stretches of the Rogue and it's tribs.
I had more to say on this subject but will save it.
We all got theories and some are probably accurate, but without data it's just an opinion.

[steelie]

Good Day,

Bomcast - So you are the one! Haha... I have seen people release fish above the dam. Mostly browns however...

Steelie

[FiberOptic]

Let data speak on the Rogue River rainbows.
Here is some info I got. It clearly shows, and you can look up the planting dates on the DNR site, that RAINBOWS planted ABOVE the Rockford dam (12 mile & Summit) were caught by me in GR. Silver fiesty lake run fish.
I couldn't tell the difference from any other steelhead I caught. Those rainbows planted today are no doubt doing the same thing these fish did back then. Why wouldn't they.

Ok, so we all know your data "proves" that you caught some 12 mile summit fish (Michigan Strain Steelhead) down below the 6th St. dam between 89-91. So this proves really nothing, except the fact that yes, you did catch a "few" migratory strain of 12 Mile Summit RAINBOWS below the 6th St. dam. Steve stated that these "MIGRATORY FISH (Michigan Steelhead)" 12 Mile Summit RAINBOWS were done being planted before 1994. We all know this is true based upon the DNR stocking database.

"Those "rainbows" planted today are no doubt doing the same thing these fish did back then. Why wouldn't they."

I'm not trying to correct anyone, but I thought we were on the discussion of RAINBOWS, not "MICHIGAN STRAIN STEELHEAD". You stated at the end of your data presentation that these rainbows planted today are no doubt doing the same thing, these fish did back then. Why wouldn't they. So anotherwords you are saying that if this is the case, (since they quit planting Michigan Strain Steelhead in 94' above the dam "aka migratory fish") they would have to be the Eagle Lake strain or other non-migratory fish that are doing "the same thing these fish did back then." So that is why I came to the conclusion based off your report, that this could "possibly" be a factor that the water might be too warm, because the rainbows were "dropping back",migrating from the upper stretches. So thus, your data would be irrelevant at this point.

TC has stated many times the physical impact Steelhead fishing has brought upon ourselves. (And I agree, because I feel the same way.) I can clearly see the "huge" difference he has been talking about, as I used to be a participant of that madness. As a property owner ABOVE the dam with several acres along the river, that is one of the reasons why I don't think putting in a ladder would be such a good idea. So there are a few cold creeks up above the dam, and it might help out "your" migratory fish by under 0.5% (if that), but then you have to look at the other consequences it will cause. I would rather wake up in the morning drinking my cappuccino, & watching some of those non migratory rainbows & browns slapping the top of the water, oppose to some guy trespassing on my property & creating a walk path & throw down trash, so he can chase a "few" migratory fish for his egg collection..... I'm not trying to sound sarcastic here, but it would be more in the lines of NATURAL DESTRUCTION, oppose to NATURAL REPRODUCTION. (Or Both) I believe a few migratory fish are just not worth it, but I guess that's just my opinion.

[steelie]

Good Day,

:yeahthat:

Steelie

[Oldgrandman]

Yup, got my opinions and some data too.
Why wouldn't Eagle lake bows drop back? Cause they can. They are just a rainbow of another color, like skams and shasta's etc.
And the data is bigger than you think. I did not turn in every head I got I don't keep all my fish. So sample size and facts give a basic picture of what is going on. Say 3 out of 6 samples were all from one group, that would statistically tell you 50% of the fish are from that group. This is called crunching data. Crudely explained I might add but, it happens in the real world and no doubt the DNR.
The debate is kind of getting tiresome, we all put fotrh info, chew on it all. I do.
I do not pretend to be any expert but have my opinions based on experiences and even what others have to say. Throw in a pinch of data and you got where I am coming from. I ain't about beating anyone down for their opinion :cool: .
Good luck y'all!

[FiberOptic]

Yup, got my opinions and some data too.
Why wouldn't Eagle lake bows drop back? Cause they can. They are just a rainbow of another color, like skams and shasta's etc.
And the data is bigger than you think. I did not turn in every head I got I don't keep all my fish. So sample size and facts give a basic picture of what is going on. Say 3 out of 6 samples were all from one group, that would statistically tell you 50% of the fish are from that group. This is called crunching data. Crudely explained I might add but, it happens in the real world and no doubt the DNR.
The debate is kind of getting tiresome, we all put fotrh info, chew on it all. I do.
I do not pretend to be any expert but have my opinions based on experiences and even what others have to say. Throw in a pinch of data and you got where I am coming from. I ain't about beating anyone down for their opinion :cool: .
Good luck y'all!

No offense, but you should have included that in your previous report. Then my opinion might have been different.;)

[bombcast]

I mentioned a ladder and should have mentioned equipment for downstream smolt passage. Where did I ever say "open to steelhead fishing"? A big ol' broodstock sanctuary is what I have in mind. Unmolested spawning above Indian Lakes, in Cedar, that sort of thing.

[FiberOptic]

"BROADCAST TEAM ON THE GO":lol:

[thousandcasts]

I mentioned a ladder and should have mentioned equipment for downstream smolt passage. Where did I ever say "open to steelhead fishing"? A big ol' broodstock sanctuary is what I have in mind. Unmolested spawning above Indian Lakes, in Cedar, that sort of thing.

I'll second that with a :yeahthat:

[FiberOptic]

I'll second that with a :yeahthat:

Nothing like "reverting" a story.:lol:

[Flyfisher]

I mentioned a ladder and should have mentioned equipment for downstream smolt passage..
No way...I prefer my smolts to be chopped up in power turbines;) Other than the St. Joe...any powerhouse dams with fish passage? Anyone know how the smolt mortality is mitigated at Berrien Springs? Or do the catfish feast on the remains?
Where did I ever say "open to steelhead fishing"? A big ol' broodstock sanctuary is what I have in mind. Unmolested spawning above Indian Lakes, in Cedar, that sort of thing.
Sort of like upstream of of M-37 on the PM? Brilliant idea! I venture to guess that a fish ladder on the Rogue would pass more fish than the lamprey weir on the PM:lol: Bear in mind that portions of the "upper" Rogue are open year round. But some of those creeks you mentioned (and didn't mention) certainly have cold enough water and gravel for spawning.

A few years ago I was fishing dries to some rising fish and caught an 11" tiger trout in the main stream not far above US-131. For those that don't know, a tiger trout is the sterile product of natural reproduction between a brown and brook trout, which are both fall spawners. They are rare, and research indicated that they have never been planted by the state anywhere in the Rogue. To me, that is some degree of proof that there are populations of naturally producing brown and brook trout in the Rogue watershed. And I'll agree the river gets warm in the summer but, in my opinion, there is significantly more thermal refuge above the dam than below.

[thousandcasts]

Nothing like "reverting" a story.:lol:

Reverting? I never said I wanted to fish above the dam, I'd just like to see fish get up there and hopefully add some more natural repro to the mix. Let 'em get into those tribs that don't open up until the last Sat. in April--get 'em in and get 'em out before the hooks start flying. It's all mere pipe dreams anyway, but what the hell...

[thousandcasts]

No way...I prefer my smolts to be chopped up in power turbines Other than the St. Joe...any powerhouse dams with fish passage? Anyone know how the smolt mortality is mitigated at Berrien Springs? Or do the catfish feast on the remains?


They have to be getting downstream one way or another. When fishing skams in the early summer, above Berrien, I've literally seen thousands of skam smolts piled into certain cold water refuges. Within a day or two, they're gone and the skam returns are always pretty decent. I'm not sure of the plant site, but I want to say that those smolts have to go over at least three dams to get to Lake Michigan, since they're planted up in Indiana waters. I asked one of our biologists about it and he stated that they usually don't have any issues getting over those dams--one way or the other.

[FiberOptic]

A few years ago I was fishing dries to some rising fish and caught an 11" tiger trout in the main stream not far above US-131. For those that don't know, a tiger trout is the sterile product of natural reproduction between a brown and brook trout, which are both fall spawners. They are rare, and research indicated that they have never been planted by the state anywhere in the Rogue. To me, that is some degree of proof that there are populations of naturally producing brown and brook trout in the Rogue watershed. And I'll agree the river gets warm in the summer but, in my opinion, there is significantly more thermal refuge above the dam than below.

Data? or,

I bet I personally liberated dozens of fish from the lower river into the upper river. Got lots of flack for it. Pop a fish below the dam/release it above.

I'd do it again in a heartbeat if I still fished there...

Oh, it's still being done...trust me on that one.

could it be, because some people liberated dozens of fish from the lower river? It's really hard to say, if there is not enough data to present this.

Since Bombcast didn't state what kind of fish, Is that why there are so many Pike up there? Did you help liberate some of those? Geez, those poor smolts. LOL

You wouldn't have my vote for a "smolt passage".

[Flyfisher]

Data? or, could it be, because some people liberated dozens of fish from the lower river?
:dizzy: I guess I don't understand your response?
How could people passing steelhead from below the dam result in a fish that is the natural product of a brook trout and brown trout?:rolleyes:

I think I have had enough fun dreaming about an escape hatch for the steelhead trapped below the dam every spring in good old downtown Rockford. Some interesting, and even bizarre, debates going on.

[Oldgrandman]

Some interesting, and even bizarre, debates going on.

Actually I like theory swapping with my buddies. Been in some great discussions with friends on some of the slower fishing trips I been on. Usually they never get resolved and we both walk away with the same belief we had to begin with, LOL. But once in a while somebody learns something.
I know I learned more than one thing from this thread ;) !

BTW Fiber, can't you come up with your own cute little saying for a signature? I feel violated.

God, I hope I can get out in my boat this weekend....
Good luck y'all!

[Flyfisher]

I hope I can get out in my boat this weekend....

I wish the winds would die down and the big lake would flatten out so I could choose to do something other than steelhead fishing.

[FiberOptic]

:dizzy: I guess I don't understand your response?
How could people passing steelhead from below the dam result in a fish that is the natural product of a brook trout and brown trout?:rolleyes:

LOL, kinda a trick question huh? I guess it all depends on which context people look at it.

BTW Fiber, can't you come up with your own cute little saying for a signature? I feel violated.

I couldn't help myself.:D No harm, no foul.

[Oldgrandman]

I wish the winds would die down and the big lake would flatten out so I could choose to do something other than steelhead fishing.

Flyfisher, I'd be in your neck of the woods if this wind would die. I can take the cold, not the wind like it's been. My boat is ready and I am looking for perch or browns myself.
Wouldn't even mind a skunk as long as I could get out just to loosen things up! :gaga: