Mixed messages- Dark glasses

[sadocf1]

If I am guilty of sending mixed messages I most certainly am in the best of company. One has but to read the media releases posted on the Forum to find 'MIXED MESSAGES''
Perhaps the fact that I am a veterinarian with 26 years of service to the USDA's Disease Eradication Programs does not quialify me to make observations and express my opinions regarding CWD.
My abject apologies.
Perhaps the fact that I do not own a game farm or a feed store, or any other kind of store has a tendency to cloud my judgment.
As I was led to believe, the Sportsmans Forum was to be for the exchange of ideas, a kind of elementary "think tank'', not a sort of "rubber stamp'' for official versions or PR Propaganda.
Please correct me if I am wrong

[rick]

Got to agree with you Sad.
The world is not coming to an end and bovine tb is only found in 1 and 1/2 percent of deer tested. CWD has been in the deer herd out west for decades. I'm not saying that we should ignore these diseases but lets not cry wolf to the point that people over react. One thing I'm sure of is that someone will profit from this mess and someone will lose.
I have read the mags and these forums and that is the extent of my expertise but that is enough to qualify me for an opinion and this is mine.

[rick]

What? No one has a opinion to this thread? The man has been called out, responds, and no one takes him to task? What's up Tom, No cut and paste.
Sorry, just the way I feel.

[Pinefarm]

I thought Sadocf1's position was pretty clear. He thinks CWD has been fabricated by unscrupulous biologists of like minds who are willing to destroy the entire Wisconsin deer herd and most of the WDNR's income from lack of license sales, in order to fund some pet project. I think it's also clear that everyone here felt that that position was so off based and paranoid that it hardly deserved a response, despite any claims of expertise made. I checked his profile and there was no mention of biologist. Plus, I didn't want to begin the pissing match that this post will invariably start. But...

[rick]

Bob, OK that's at least a response. No one is asking for everyone to agree but I would like to at least see a response. After all this was a post that originated because Tom questioned Sad. about his concerns.
Bob, One question. Does your shop sell deer "bait". If so I salute you. You are saying that even though this will affect my income I am against it. Is that the case?

[Tom Morang]

Yes, I questioned Sad about the point he was trying to make. Did he have a direction to his post? I'm still not sure he answered the question. But then, maybe I'm just easily confused.

.........tm

One thing I do know Rick, he seems quite capable of sticking up for himself.:)

[boehr]

I posted this on another thread, seems fitting to post here too. Let us be careful not to jump on each other especially where CWD is concerned. I can promise you there will be hunters that do a lot of jumping and taking sides in the future. It doesn't matter what any state's DNR does, Michigan, Wisconsin or any other state that there will be a large number of people, hunters and non hunters that will argue that the DNR did it wrong. I believe it's important to keep hunters together concerning this issue so again, let's be careful....there are more questions than answers as has been stated many times. I know there are no experts here because I don't think there are any experts on this subject anywhere.

[rick]

Tom, Im not sticking up for Sad. I'm agreeing with his point.
Bob, what pissing match?????

[Tom Morang]

Which one Rick?

[rick]

Good Question Tom.
The Point That he made that there are 2 sides to every discussion. No one is 100 % right so take it all in with an open mind. Is it the end of the world? No. Will it be the end of the deer herd in Michigan? My opinion, No. Is it a problem to be addressed? Of course.
All I ask is that you don't turn everyone off when it comes to my favorite pasttime, pursuing the Whitetail deer.

[Tom Morang]

"All I ask is that you don't turn everyone off when it comes to my favorite pasttime, pursuing the Whitetail deer."

What do you mean by that Rick?

[rick]

Tom. I'm going to end this with the reguest that you read all your cut and pastes and tell me if this is a sport that you would like to take up. Is there anything positive?
Tom, are you a activisist or a sportsman? I've been reading your posts and I'm not sure.
I will end this by saying this is only MY Opion.

[Tom Morang]

Sure am glad you are ending this Rick. Think what you like, you are entitled to your opinion. If the news is bad, it's bad, I didn't make it. I have been trying to find something positive about CWD for better than two months now and I haven't found it yet. So, if you don't want to hear it then you can put a filter on my posts and that way you won't have to see them or read them. ;)

Unless the management tells me otherwise I will continue to post articles here (notice I very rarely editorialize) that I hope inform and educate those who frequent this site. I think most of the hunters that visit here can handle the issue.

We should get together sometime and compare photo albums Rick..........tm

[Huntnut]

Tom,

For the record...

My first stop everyday is at the TB CWD forum to read the latest article you have posted.

Your article compilation is the best one I have found on the net that pertains to CWD and the Midwest, and imo, you are my source when it comes to 90% of my cwd knowledge...directly gleaned from your posts.

Please don't stop....I rely on your posts to stay on top of this issue.

Hunt

[RUPP]

WOW. It seems that this site is being bombarded with this doomsday hysteria stuff. Doesn’t anyone want to just slow down here and think rationally for a minute? What additional information are we not digesting here?

If this disease has been around for decades, then where are the numbers (number of animal deaths as a result of CWD)? Where is the data? In every article posted here I’ve seen these people, Experts in this or Managers in that, continually comment on how bad an “outbreak” could be and how we surely don’t want it to happen because it would be devastating. Again and again these articles go over the same information. You can tell that they’re written for shock value, probably by a person who couldn’t tell the difference between a white tail and a mule deer.

Well, I have a question. What data, historical cases, precedence, etc. would lead us to believe that there is even the likelihood of an “outbreak”? Has an “outbreak” even happened in the past and why, if this is such a bad deal, hasn’t a single one of these “experts” given an example (with some sound date, like # of animal deaths)? Surely, for a disease that has been around for at least 40 years, there should be some numbers to look at? Personally, I haven’t heard of any “outbreak” of this stuff in Colorado in the 25+ years I’ve lived there. Am I just in the dark here?

Maybe Mr. Morang could help us out and find some real data and real numbers and not so much of this “…could be”, “…might be” and “…may cause” stuff. Then we could have more information to weigh, resulting in a more educated reaction.

I really think some people are overreacting here, from the Top Brass on down to the concerned Sportsman. Nothing wrong with being passionate about something we love. Being passionate about game animals is even more reason to think things through and not be so knee-jerk in our reactions.

Regards,
RUPP

[boehr]

Tom...I support your efforts to gather the information written and post it where we have a compilation of all the information written to provide all of us with an single place to read about it. You are just posting information for everyone to read, keep doing it.

Some of the other posters here are an example of what I said above, there will be a division of hunters on this and any other thing that effects or has the potential of effecting deer hunting on a large scale. This subject just happens to be CWD. It's no different if the subject was TB, baiting, buck tagging, QDM or whatever, the division will be there. The sad part is we have no idea if it has effected Michigan yet and it's starting to divide hunters.

It is my opinion that we should do everything we can to educate ourselves about CWD instead of not being concerned about it until it gets here. If we can learn everything we can then just maybe some of the things we do will help prevent it from happening before radical things have to be done to stop it, like Wisconsin seems to be getting ready to do.

In another post somewhere on this site, someone said that if we don't manage it properly (and that means anything), mother nature will manage it for us sooner or later. That is so true.

[Tom Morang]

Thank you Boehr and Huntnut, as you know information is key to understanding this and other issues.


Rupp, if you don't want to believe the scientists and experts in the field that is your choice. The reason I post these things is so we can make an informed decision. Has there been some over-reaction? Sure. At the same time we all need to realize this could very well be the biggest single threat to our resource in history.

Wisconsin is a wake up call and a shot over the bow so to speak. If we don't take up and notice who will? It is up to us as conservationists to demand that the health and future of our Natural Resource be protected.

I have supplied some information below that falls under the criteria that Rupp has outlined. It (and more) has all been posted here before. And Rupp, there is even some very good information from your state of Colorado.



http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fish_and_wildlife/CWDplan2002.pdf

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/wildlife/whealth/issues/CWD/index.htm

http://wildlife.state.co.us/hunt/HunterEducation/chronic.asp

http://gf.state.wy.us/HTML/hunting/chronicwast.htm

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.html&cf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfg&configFileLoc=tgam/config&encoded_keywords=cwd&option=&start_row=2&current_row=2&start_row_offset1=&num_rows=1&search_results_start=1

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/vs/cwd_fact_sheet.htm

[Pinefarm]

Rick, the pissing match I was afraid of was something like the thread melt downs that you often find on The Steelhead Site. Usually, someone there will start a thread of some controversy and it melts down into juvenile name calling. I'm once again very impressed by the behavior of this site. If anything, my reply had a bite to it, but mainly because I'm worried that if we have a wait and see until CWD gets here philosophy, then we'll wait and it will be here. Then we have serious troubles. You'll see that I often make historical references because I'm a huge history buff. To me, this is like finding out that we've got 30 mobilized Panzer divisions on our border. We really only have two options. Either we do nothing and wait and see if they spill over the border and deal with them at devestating disadvantage or we mobilize now and hopefully we will be prepared to deal with it and defeat it. To me, the options are that simple. I do have to agree with Ray that we have to watch our tempers or they will flair. Perhaps I let mine get the better of me, but only because of the very high stakes involved. As far as selling bait, the answer is no. We probably lose out on about $30,000 in sales by not selling bait, but we're close to Osceola and Mecosta counties, where baiting is banned. Hunters would just buy it from us and use it there. Plus, you see a lot of guys coming up on a Friday night with 30 bags of carrots in their truck. Granted, I'm sure some are stock piling them by their camp to use one bag at a time, but I'm also sure many put out 10 bags. Sometimes I buy a bunch of bags and stack them next to the house so I always have some. But I think you know what I mean. Before this years salmon hook changes, you could use some pretty darn big treble hooks. We never sold them. The only purpose of those hooks is to snag. Every salmon and steelhead run, we also have 10 plus guys come in looking for frog or ice fishing spears. We hide our spears in the back room during those seasons. I can't stop guys from poaching, but there's a few certain items that lend to it and I don't have to sell those. Anyways, to me, this subject is very serious and all you have to do is look at Wisconsin starting deer season on May 6 to understand that their biologists also feel the same way. Just imagine if we were talking about MDNR instead of WDNR.

[Bob S]

Tom, keep the information coming. We can`t wait until CWD hits the Michigan deer herd before we decide to do something about it. I hope the MDNR will take steps to reduce the herd in areas where it needs to be reduced this year. It looks like Wisconsin is going to reduce deer densities, Michigan should do the same.

[RUPP]

Mr. Morang,

Thanks for your efforts, but these commentaries, as with all the others I've read, do not outline the hard numbers I was looking for. I have done quite a bit of reading on this and I think you'll have difficulties finding any hard data because it just doesn't exist. Let us know if you do find any though.

The additional information you have posted is much the same as all the others you have previously posted. So much so that I keep asking myself "I've already reads this one, haven't I?" Where are all the carcasses of deer and elk that have died from this disease in the past 35-40years? Reading these commentaries a person would think that their would be dead deer all over the place. But, fact is, this just hasn't happened. As nasty as we are led to believe that this disease is, where are the cases of outbreaks in the past that have wiped whole herds of animals? This is what we're worried about, right? This is the information I'm looking for. Not the outbreaks of "mad cow disease" which keep popping up and which may or may not be a related disease. Heck, while were on the Mad Cow subject, I read that some research has indicated that it could be caused by a mineral defficiency, zinc as I recall, and in fact not the ingestion of a bad protein. I believe it was Switzerland, where there were very high cases of Mad Cow, where the animals weren't even fed the suspect protein mash. Fact is, we just don't know a heck of a lot here.

Tom, I don't mean at all to be disrespectful to you or anyone else here, but I am very skeptical about a lot of people's reactions to this. Too much "could be...", "might be..." and "may cause..." to convince me yet. Honestly, I think there is more cause for concern with increasing and unchecked predator numbers in many areas (coyotes, cougars, wolves) and paricitic-caused afflictions than with the "what-ifs" of CWD.

One thing is for certain though, if these game commisions are wrong we'll never hear them admit it. They're too far committed now. I hope that they know what the heck they're doing.


Regards,
RUPP

[Pinefarm]

Rupp, if you think about it, why did the UK kill all their cattle? Because the disease passes from animal to animal. If it were a zinc def., then humans wouldn't get it be eating the meat.

[Tom Morang]

By the time you have the hard numbers you are looking for Mr RUPP I fear it will be way too late to do any good.

[Pinefarm]

"Just imagine if we were talking about MDNR instead of WDNR."

To clarify, in my last post, this was my last line. This was not meant as a slam against our DNR. I only meant could you imagine if CWD was here instead of WI. and we were the ones forced to open rifle season on Monday. The mother of all nightmares for a deer hunter. The only thing worse would be if a single person got CWD.

[RUPP]

Gentlemen,

Mr. Morang, we've had over forty years that we've known about this disease. Do you really think that another few years of data gathering research will hurt? How many animals have died in those past forty years from our lack of doing anything to stop it? These are the numbers I have been looking for which might convince me that time is indeed of the essence. But those numbers and those past "outbreaks" which have wiped out herds of animals just aren't there, are they? It's all the continual "What -ifs..." and the "relationship" to "Mad Cow" fear mongering that is driving this issue, because the facts are just not there.

Yes Bob, no one has contended how Mad Cow (BSE, which may or may not be similar to CWD) can be transmitted through ingestion of portions of the brain, spine (central nervous system). BSE spread in the UK because millions of cattle were being fed contaminated food, for a long, long period. This sheds light on how it is transmitted, not it's cause.

However, there is a theory that in fact it is a copper deficiency(not zinc as I recalled before) in the presence of manganese which is the ROOT cause of BSE. Many find it interesting to note that Switzerland has the highest incidence of BSE, and they have never permitted feeding cows with reconstituted cows (protein mash supliment). What they have done is used percutaneous oil based organophosphates to control warble fly, which leaches copper from the central nervous system. Interseting huh?

So much we don't know about these diseases, like just because a deer tests positive for CWD in the wild, is there a 100% mortality rate? Or, in other words, are there different levels of this disease? Levels that the animals can overcome? Just because an animal tests positive is that a death sentence? Just because an animal tests positive does that mean that they can transmit the disease to anaother? Another question: After we've gathered information on the above questions wouldn't it be possible to do herd samples through tonsil biopsies which have pretty good results and are non-lethal? This sampling method costs quite a bit, but compared to this culling initiative, I'd wager similar costs without the longterm effects of wiping out entire herds because two or three animals are positive for the disease.
It's an option at least, but no one seems to be talking about it.

Regards,
RUPP

[sadocf1]

I am both pleased and extremely gratified to read the many responses to the incoherent ramblings of a senile old man.
The fact that I have somehow stimulated and activated the thought processes of so many gives me sufficent justification to attempt further disclosures regarding CWD that may affect the game farm industry, the sporting goods industry, and deer hunters nation wide.
I see someone has seen fit to remove a quote from one of the responses that delighted this octogenarian ( coming 84 next 4th of JULY ) Fortunately a copy is available-- "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us''- Bill Watterson-
My son Charlie suggested that we might look to the states surrounding Colorado, notably Wyoming.
Wyoming has had CWD IN BOTH WILD AND CAPTIVE DEER AND ELK FOR MANY YEARS-- Wildlife people there do not appear to be
unduly alarmed-- do they know something we dont ???
Now I must admit that my feeble attempts to protect the game farms was unjustified, and what I am about to disclose may well leave me open to legal difficulties, however as a veterinarian who has spent many years in disease eradication, I feel morally obligated to attempt to inform one and all of this very grave threat to our wildlife.
E. S. Williams, DVM, of the Veterinary Science Division of Wyoming University, who has spent many years studying CWD, states that the prion, the bent protein particle, that causes the disease, is excreted from the bodies of infected animals in the feces and urine.
We know that the prions are very resistant to heat and chemical disinfectants.
We know that it is the game farms that are spreading CWD, although I am apparently one of the last to admit it, the concrete evidence has been before us all along.
Before all you adherents to the "game farms are spreading it'' doctrine start to smirk and say "I told you so''-- a word of caution-
you are just as guilty as the game farms.!!!
The production and sale and use by deer hunters of deer urine may well be how cwd is being spread in these United States.
Game farms are the only possible source of the product.
The product is being used indiscriminately by hunters- there is no way to test live animal donors- the manufacture, sale and use of the product requires little or no government supervision or restriction.
I accept full resposibility for the above statements, realizing that they are disparaging to the above mentioned product.
I REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED TO FRED TROST !!

[Tom Morang]

Sadocf1, you won't believe this but I agree with you about the scent products and I share your concern. As a matter of fact, on March 18, I posed the following question to Rose Lake and have not yet received a reply.


"Deer scents, urine, deer droppings, and deer hocks are sold as deer
attractants in almost every sporting goods store in the country. Many
of these products come from deer farms and are suspected of transmitting
CWD. Is this an area of possible concern?

Sincerely,
Tom Morang"



I understand they are busy and can't drop what they are doing to answer every single question but I do expect some type of response soon. Not only is urine and feces shipped around the country so are deer hock glands and only God knows what else.

Respectfully,
Tom Morang

[sadocf1]

Tom; I salute you for your concern and inquiry. Hopefully we have started to get past the hysteria stage of the game- it was a perfectly normal reaction- and consider ways in which CWD can possibly be spread.
There can be no doubt that an infected animal can and will infect other susceptible animals, either by contact, or by contaminating feed, water, or environmental contamination.
We should give consideration to all the avenues in which the infection can be transmitted, not just the handiest one, or the one promoted by PR Propaganda and the media.
I fault the authorities for trying to "cover up'' or disregard these other means of CWD transmission- this is unfortunately part of the game- the domestic livestock industry must be protected-
My deer urine story was more for "shock value'', but who knows, it may be one real possibility.
New diseases come and go. Scrapie, the TSE affecting sheep in the UK for 200 years actually was not a great problem for the industry. I have often wondered if the long and happy life of old Bossy, the best cow in the barn, and that of Bambi, the deer, is in more danger of being cut short, not by disease, but by the program to eradicate the disease.
You have made my day- my apologies- I had you pegged wrong

[BEAGLEMAN]

I wasn't going to enter this arguement, but what the hell.
I tend to agree with Rupp and sadocf1 in their arguements about CWD. I realize this is a very serious discussion but what worries me more are the people waiting in the wings that are going to start screaming "kill all the deer" before it's proven that things are really as bad as what we are being told. Is Wisconsin's deer herd really in jeopardy if they don't kill off all the deer? Or is there another plan of action that would work. I don't know and am hoping we will find out before we follow suit.
Tom

[Tom Morang]

Rupp, I support the wildlife experts and their decisions to do what is necessary to protect the resource. If they feel that precautionary measures are needed then I feel we should support that......If my transmission needs repair I'm not going to take it to the heating and plumbing store to have it fixed.......... JMHO......tm

http://www.madelk.org/precautionary_principle.htm

[johnnysmallgame]

test

[johnnysmallgame]

If the doctor tells you that you have cancer in your left foot and you have a 99% chance of survival if its amputated and a 20% chance of survival if you keep the foot and try chemo, what do you do? And oh by the way, you're 40, you have a hot wife and you just won the lottery. Would you risk your life to save your foot? Tough decision? Deer hunting in Michigan, to those who live and breath it, is like having won the lottery. And CWD to deer hunting may very well be like Cancer. You can continue to pursue 2nd opinions all you want but with cancer, time is your enemy. "Clear Killing" in selected areas my seem as extreme as removing your left foot but compare the possible alternative. I'd rather worry about getting along on crutches than whether the funeral director has two matching shoes. And as for the question of "why hasn't Colorado's deer herd been desimated"? That's like the doctor telling you he new of a person who kept his foot and survived cancer. Great for him, but we're talking about me now.

[sadocf1]

Tom; If you posed you question in March dont hold your breath any longer.These are embarassing questions. The only possible answer to your question or mine regarding contaminated feed would be "there is no proof''
We must assume there is "no proof'' that any one in authority has considered the Precautionary Principle and what it implies.

[Benelli]

Thanks for the good discussion guys…I was about to pull the trigger on this one before I went out of town last week and returned to find a loaded thread. Not much I can really add here but a few thoughts:

Sadocf1: I appreciate your input as well as any one else’s, you have given me some insight on the feed / scrapie / pee/ etc. part of the equations in regard to TSE’s and expanded my limited knowledge base on the subject. I do not, however, subscribe to conspiracy theories, and many of your posts are geared toward that end. I do trust the word of the wildlife professionals quoted in these forums which leads me to:

Tom: (I knew of your involvement in one particular MI hunting organization before I even registered to these forums): Please keep it up with the news releases, etc.

Those who do read them please consider the source. While they are good references anything from a news organization or a beat writer from some local paper should be taken with some skepticism as far as proposed management practices are concerned. In my view, the posts from news agencies only provide a “where and when” CWD or other diseases were discovered and general action plan provided by the governing agencies. Wait for the official press releases from the state equivalents of the MI DNR before you really form an opinion. Noted outdoor journalists will provide good information from our side of the fence too.

Rupp: I’ve been putting in for CO licenses for over 15 years (mostly preference points). While I did not apply for NE CO, I have always seen encouragement to take deer in the CWD areas with the emphasis to reduce the deer / elk herd. I did not read those sections of the yearly regs too close, but the WI proposal to take deer down to close to 0 deer per square mile over a 300 sq mile area is probably not too different than CO’s approach in the past if you consider the number of animals that need to be harvested to achieve the goals. I do not disagree with the info you have provided, but I’m putting my faith in the area DNR / DOW folks.

Rick: Seems as we both hunt in / near the MI TB area. I can only say that I have seen better deer hunting and healthier deer in the area over the last five or six years in response to reducing the deer herd in an attempt to eradicate or eliminate TB. I may see some lean years ahead, but I’m willing to sacrifice a few years of my personal satisfaction to see long term benefits.

Bob: thanks for stirring up the pot again.

From what I have read, heard, etc. I think the WI proposal to combat CWD is sound. If CWD ever shows up in MI I would support a similar proposal. It may hurt individual hunters / hunting styles for awhile, but looking at long term, I believe it’s the best course of action in this type of situation.

Let's keep our fingers crossed!