Changes to Predator Hunting laws

[croshair]

We need predator hunters living in the districts of the members of the House Natural Resources and Senate Natural Resources committees to email or write them to educate the legislators about our proposed changes to the current predator hunting laws (Elininate the hunter orange requirement/eliminate the current centerfire rifle restriction/allow varmint & predator hunting from elevated platforms). Also, let your state representative or state senator introduce the needed legislation to make the changes we would like to see.

Here is the link to the committees:

http://session.mihouse.mi.gov/Committees%20New/cselectComm.asp?intCommitteeKey=22 (http://session.mihouse.mi.gov/Committees New/cselectComm.asp?intCommitteeKey=22)


Thanks:)

[steely171]

Had some trouble with the link but dug around and found my rep. I will stay with it until I get a response!

[croshair]

Had some trouble with the link but dug around and found my rep. I will stay with it until I get a response!

Thanks for the efforts. I also had problems with the link. Finally got in. I've been in contact with Dudley Spade and Joel Sheltrown. The more people who let their voice be heard, the more likely we are to get a hearing.

Thanks:coolgleam

[Hamilton Reef]

Tourism, Outdoor Recreation and Natural Resources will meet on Tuesday (3/13) at 10:30 a.m. to take up the following bill:
HB 4407 – Allow the use of raised platforms when hunting fox or coyote.

[JWICKLUND]

(Eliminate the hunter orange requirement/eliminate the current centerfire rifle restriction/allow varmint & predator hunting from elevated platforms).
:)

Maybe and you will get the elevated platform hunting law through, but the hunter orange and centerfire restriction will never make it through.
:coco:

[QuakrTrakr]

Ask and you shall receive. http://www.michiganvotes.org/Legislation.aspx?ID=45166
Leave a comment please. Cheers to Rep. Dudley Spade.
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164214

[Little Roober]

Maybe and you will get the elevated platform hunting law through, but the hunter orange and centerfire restriction will never make it through.
:coco:

I really don't see anything wrong with throwing on an orange hat. I do want to get the elevated platform one taken care of though.

[polarbare21]

I do...

[magnumhntr]

Maybe and you will get the elevated platform hunting law through, but the hunter orange and centerfire restriction will never make it through.
:coco:


Just curious as to the coocoo emoticon? I can understand not wanting someone using a centerfire rifle at night, but why not change the hunter orange requirement? Seems to me, it would be no different than hunting crows, or turkeys, or ducks. I don't see why wearing camo while predator hunting would be different than the aforementioned species, yet allow us to remain concealed better from the keen eyed k9's.

Chris

[VARMINTHUNTERLAKEORION]

Hunter Orange Petition/Michigan

http://www.petitiononline.com/coyote/petition.html

[JWICKLUND]

Hunters orange is a safety issue. Look at all the hunting related fatalities over the years and see my point. Even though it is a requirement of predator hunters now I have seen very little compliance. As predator hunting grows and more people take up the sport, fatalities are enevitable. Hunters orange is something that can control that and the statistics are there to prove it.

Centerfire rifles at night are a bad idea all together. Rimfires work just fine for killing coyotes at night.

I meant no disrespect with the cuckoo symbol but I get tired of reading about petitions and threads saying hunting methods, equipment, bag limits, and seasons need to change. With PETA and the Humane Society looking at eliminating hunting and trapping, I think people should fight for hunting first, then worry about methods, equipment, bag limits, and season later.

[VARMINTHUNTERLAKEORION]

If they are thinking of allowing to hunt predators from an elevated platform, it's about time - this being said - centerfire calibers at night from a platform are definately a much less danger and should have been allowed a long time ago - being all the composit bullets disintegrate upon hitting anything - far less risk of bullet skip. If you look at the statistics since they made it legal to hunt deer from an elevated platform - the injurys and deaths from hunting have dropped dramatically. And as for the hunter orange at night issue, there are no-where's near the amount of hunters in the field compared to say deer hunters & small game hunters that are out during daytime hunting hours. Take a look at the number of Fur-harvester tags sold every year - compaired to the number of deer tags sold every year - 300 times the amount. And as far as the safety issue with centerfire calibers around the highly populated areas - why is it and has been legal to hunt coyotes in all of southern michigan during daytime hunting hours with a centerfire rifle? - the statistics for injurys over the last 10 years is nothing in comparison with shotguns in southern lower michigan during this time. I agree safety is all our concern but it all comes down to the shooter knowing his targets background - do something dumb and it's the fault of the shooter - prosecute and punish "THIS" person - not us all.

[QuakrTrakr]

I agree with VARMINTHUNTERLAKEORION. I think it's a paranoia that peoples houses and cows or whatever are gonna get hit by stray bullets at night. How many accounts of stray bullets appen during deer season? With large caliber bullets? I rarely hear of any. A 22-250 with a Vmax bullet will explode immediately upon hitting even a small branch. I say try it for 3 years and look at the numbers.
As for the orange, I wouldn't mind wearing orange while walking to my setup, but once there, I'd be allowed to take it off.

[lang49]

Hunters orange is a safety issue. Look at all the hunting related fatalities over the years and see my point. Centerfire rifles at night are a bad idea all together. Rimfires work just fine for killing coyotes at night.



Do you have any facts to back up these statements? How many duck hunter, bow hunter, and turkey hunter fatalities have occurred over the years??

Also, if you really think that rimfire rifles "work just fine for killing coyotes," you are only kidding yourself. The best defense against peta and HSUS is to drop animals right where they stand. Allowing a crippled coyote run a quarter mile before expiring in the neighbors yard is a bad idea. Rimfire rifles are not conducive to humane kills on coyotes.

[JWICKLUND]

Do you have any facts to back up these statements? How many duck hunter, bow hunter, and turkey hunter fatalities have occurred over the years??

Also, if you really think that rimfire rifles "work just fine for killing coyotes," you are only kidding yourself. The best defense against peta and HSUS is to drop animals right where they stand. Allowing a crippled coyote run a quarter mile before expiring in the neighbors yard is a bad idea. Rimfire rifles are not conducive to humane kills on coyotes.

It was stated above that it is the hunters responsibility to know their target. Do you really think you can be sure of your target at night in a field?
Centerfire rifles during the daylight hours vs Centerfire rifles at night are totally different. That is why you cannot use a centerfire rifle at night.....period.. (Remember the hunter is responsible where that bullet ends up.)

Without giving you a long lecture on game laws and why they are in place, here are a few reasons why.
1) Semiautomatic centerfire Rifles capable of holding 6 shells in the magazine and barrel combined is illegal.
- Rimfire rifles are an exception
2) The 5 days before deer season it is illegal to posses a centerfire rifle in an area frequented by game unless it is being transported to a hunting camp and is unloaded and in a case.
- Rimfire rifles are an exception with possession a fur harvesing license.
3) Possessing a centerfire rifle at night while in possession of an artificial light from September 15 to March 31st is illegal.
- Rimfire rifles are an exception

4) CO's deal with a lot of shiners, if you don't believe me, read the weekly reports. Shining deer with a weapon in possession is illegal (Except for a CCW) I already covered the exception to using artificial lights on foot.
- Now throw a bunch of predator hunters out in the woods in the fall with night vision scopes, and with centerfire rifles. Do you think maybe just maybe someone may be tempted to use "predator" hunting to mask their illegal hunting of deer? CO's job catching shiners and window shooters is already hard enough.

As for hunters orange, I do have a problem with not wearing it during the day. You asked for visual proof, here you go..(statistics don't lie)
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/HUNTING_DEATHS_INURY_1940-CURRENT_161501_7.pdf

Rimfire rifles and amunition are cheaper to buy and for females and younger hunters, easier to shoot.
As for wounding coyotes, my .17 rimfire has never let me down. I don't plink away at coyotes and "hope" to kill them at 400 yards. I don't take a shot unless I know I can kill the animal, and I have never had one run more than 100 yards.

All the hunters I have talked to this year that have successfully taken predators at night also have no problem killing coyotes so I am not sure why your rimfire doesn't do the same, but shooting bigger chunks of lead downrange IS NOT the answer. If you want to use centerfires to shoot coyotes, hunt during the day.

Elevated platforms are also a safety issue. Do you really want to be climbing trees at night? At night more people will fall asleep and platform related deaths and accidents are sure to rise.

The laws listed above are there for a reason and Legistlation will be hard pressed to change that so a small goup of people can get their way. The rules are fine the way they are. People are successful using them. As predator hunting grows in numbers and more people take to the woods you will also see that these laws are time tested and proven to keep people safe.

[QuakrTrakr]

Elevated platforms are also a safety issue. Do you really want to be climbing trees at night? At night more people will fall asleep and platform related deaths and accidents are sure to rise.


You make some valid points, but this one is misguided. Everyone who hunts out of a elevated blind for deer, climbs up or down (or both) in the dark. More people fall alseep at night in a tree stand? Now, you're just making stuff up. I could possibly see it if you're deer hunting and you have 2 hours before legal shooting hours. But, if you're legally hunting for predators at night, you won't be sleeping, you'd be hunting. Have you ever hunted from an elevated blind? An elevated deer shack also applies. That's where most of my hunting would come from.

[lang49]

JWickland- please reread my original post as it pertains to the text I quoted from you.

When I asked if you had any facts to support your claim, I was referring to your statement that "Hunters orange is a safety issue. Look at all the hunting related fatalities over the years and see my point."

Again, I have to ask "How many duck hunter, bow hunter, and turkey hunter fatalities have occurred over the years??" Can you present us with some facts in regards to this?

To respond to your statments:

1) Semiautomatic centerfire Rifles capable of holding 6 shells in the magazine and barrel combined is illegal.
- Rimfire rifles are an exception


:lol: This has nothing to do with the use of centerfire rifles at night! No kidding- if the use of a semiautomatic centerfire rifle holding 6 or more shells is illegal during the day, it's also gonna be illegal at night! :dizzy: What was your point in making this statement?


2) The 5 days before deer season it is illegal to posses a centerfire rifle in an area frequented by game unless it is being transported to a hunting camp and is unloaded and in a case.
- Rimfire rifles are an exception with possession a fur harvesing license.

Then prohibit night time varmint hunting with centerfire rifles during this 5 day window. Whats so difficult about that?


3) Possessing a centerfire rifle at night while in possession of an artificial light from September 15 to March 31st is illegal.
- Rimfire rifles are an exception

The whole point of this movement is to overturn this regulation.

[Little Roober]

You make some valid points, but this one is misguided. Everyone who hunts out of a elevated blind for deer, climbs up or down (or both) in the dark. More people fall alseep at night in a tree stand? Now, you're just making stuff up. I could possibly see it if you're deer hunting and you have 2 hours before legal shooting hours. But, if you're legally hunting for predators at night, you won't be sleeping, you'd be hunting. Have you ever hunted from an elevated blind? An elevated deer shack also applies. That's where most of my hunting would come from.


:yeahthat:

I very rarely hunt at night anyways. What about during the day?

[magnumhntr]

Hunters orange is a safety issue. Look at all the hunting related fatalities over the years and see my point. Even though it is a requirement of predator hunters now I have seen very little compliance. As predator hunting grows and more people take up the sport, fatalities are enevitable. Hunters orange is something that can control that and the statistics are there to prove it.

Centerfire rifles at night are a bad idea all together. Rimfires work just fine for killing coyotes at night.

I meant no disrespect with the cuckoo symbol but I get tired of reading about petitions and threads saying hunting methods, equipment, bag limits, and seasons need to change. With PETA and the Humane Society looking at eliminating hunting and trapping, I think people should fight for hunting first, then worry about methods, equipment, bag limits, and season later.


No disrespect taken, as I hope you don't take any offense to my argument that not wearing hunters orange during PREDATOR HUNTING would make no difference in a safety sense. I don't know of anyone that predator hunts during deer firearm season, which is when the woods are at their highest in hunter numbers. So this time of year, I would say yes, if you intend to predator hunt, then you should be wearing orange. But any other time of the year, I would not agree with the orange requirement. I think a turkey hunter has a greatly higher probability of being shot by another hunter than someone predator hunting. I simply don't see the safety argument in this case.

I also know that you are in the profession of upholding the laws ~ not making them. I can respect that you quote the laws above ~ but I see your argument more as a professional opinion, than a personal one. Correct me if I'm wrong.

One thing I CAN wholeheartedly agree with you on is that we need to fight the anti's off together as a whole. Arguing about the current laws should come AFTER the anti's are sent packing ~ which I have full faith we shall make them do.....:cool:

Chris

[griffondog]

I was going to stay out of this but I can't. The only form of hunting that hunters orange has made a drastic change in is bird hunting. Pheasant hunting became a lot safer in the late 70's when the law went in effect.

No other form of hunting has had a major change in accident rates from the law. Why havn't the rates gone up in the last few years with all the deer hunters hunting out of shacks and portable camo hunting blinds. The reason is the orange requirement has a minimal effect on deer hunter safety.

Farmers work in the fields, people walk their dogs and people go for a hike all fall and winter with out getting shot. With all the new waterfowl and turkey hunters over the last 20 year how come their accident rates havn't gone up.

It wasn't that many years ago that you could hunt predators at night with a centerfire rifle as long as you didn't have a light with you. But the Dnr changed that loophole when they became aware of it. Deer hunting is the holy grail in this state. If there is the possibility of a few more deer getting poached in this state the law will not be changed!

I would like to see the hunters orange requirement changed and the elevated platform law. The only way to get the centerfire law through is to restrict it to 22 cal and smaller. I hope the elevated platform law gets changed so every time a deer hunter tells me how they shot a fox or coyote I can quite calling them a poacher.

Griffondog

[croshair]

This sounds like retoric we have heard before. All these issues have been agrued before. But, let's try one more time.
1. Removing the Hunter Orange requirement is no different than hunting varmints before July 15. Before which orange is not required. Also, MANY other states which operate varmint/predator hunts DO NOT require orange.

2. Allowing use of Centerfire rifles is no more dangerous in Michigan than the MANY other states which allow the use of centerfire rifles day or night.

3. Elevated platforms increase hunter safety regarding terminal impact of bullets. Accidents related to climbing up and down are always safety issues and should always be used with due caution. (I personally don't use elevated stands, don't care for heights).

4. The poaching excuse is always going to be someones arguement. However, NOT EVERYONE WHO HUNTS IS A POACHER. Please give up on the idea that varmint/predator hunters are idots who blindly shoot at anything in the woods or that we would risk the loss of hunting licenses, very expensive rifles, expensive scopes, several hundred $$ digital callers, ATV's, tow vehicles and DIGNITY. Poachers will always be. Hunters ARE NOT poachers. Law Enforcement Officers know how to deal with poachers (I'm a 23 Law Enforcement veteran). Laws are made to deal with law breakers and to protect law abiding citizens, like predator hunters.

[CL-Lewiston]

I guess 'as the number of users grow' we will soon be like snowmobilers. I have not heard of the number killed this year but 35-40 is often the case. I just dont hear the DNR lamenting the loss of those lives. Can you imagine the outcry if 35-40 hunters were shot (dead) from Nov 1st to end of March??

Is there a law that predator hunters can NOT wear orange?? Do what you think is best.

[QuakrTrakr]

I guess 'as the number of users grow' we will soon be like snowmobilers. I have not heard of the number killed this year but 35-40 is often the case. I just dont hear the DNR lamenting the loss of those lives. Can you imagine the outcry if 35-40 hunters were shot (dead) from Nov 1st to end of March??

Is there a law that predator hunters can NOT wear orange?? Do what you think is best.
I disagree. Snowmobilers GENERALLY (not all) are not as responsible as legal, law abiding hunters. We all have stories of the drunk sledder that ran into a shanty on Houghton Lake, or the one that ran off the ice into the lake after leaving the bar. Overall, hunters are safer. Most hunters that get hurt, seem to be slip/fall. Heck, more people die every year fishing than hunting! Should we outlaw fishing at night!?

[JWICKLUND]

Deer hunting is the holy grail in this state. If there is the possibility of a few more deer getting poached in this state the law will not be changed!

Griffondog

I didn't want to reply to this to make people mad. Griffondog is absolutely correct, you could hunt with centerfire rifles before but the dnr quickly changed that. I doubt they will go back to that for less than 1 percent of the hunters out there that want to use centerfire rifles at night. They give you a choice, hunt during the day with centerfire rifles or hunt at night with a rimfire. I believe this is fair and good luck arguing otherwise.
You can say other states allow you to hunt with centerfire rifles at night.... fine, that's their stance, ours is different.

Hunters orange is a good thing. I could hunt coyotes in a big yellow chicken suit and still see coyotes just as well as hiding in a hay bale in camo. I hear two excuses out there for not wearing hunters orange while predator hunting. The first being "I didn't know you had to" and the second being "the coyotes will see me".
If hunters orange saves 1 life, it is well worth the enforcement effort.

How can you compare hunting with shotguns and bows to centerfire rifles. How many duck hunters here have been sprayed by shot falling out of the air out in their boat or in their blind. It is fairly common. At a couple hundred yards it may even sting.
A stray arrow may travel a hundred yards and at that distance can still kill a person but you most likely would have seen or known they were there.
A stray bullet can travel a half mile or more and kill someone you never saw or even knew was there, or stick into someones car or house.
Do we really need guys shooting high powerd rifles at something a 1/4 the size of a deer and sending multiple rounds a half mile or mile away?

I understand your points, I really do, I hunt and come up with all sorts of ways to improve hunting. I also have a job to do and by doing that job I see why the laws are the way they are.

[crittrgittr]

Mr. Wicklund,

quote: I doubt they will go back to that for less than 1 percent of the hunters out there that want to use centerfire rifles at night.

If there is only less than one percent of us out there, whats the big deal? You don't seem to have any problem letting 500,000+ deer hunters shoot high powerd rifles at something the size of a deer and sending multiple rounds a half mile or mile away?
I didn't realize that deer hunters were so much better shots, than us predator hunters.

quote: I could hunt coyotes in a big yellow chicken suit and still see coyotes just as well as hiding in a hay bale in camo.
If that is so...I for one would love to see any pics of this, posted by you, in the photo gallery. Just to prove your point.

quote: Do we really need guys shooting high powerd rifles at something a 1/4 the size of a deer and sending multiple rounds a half mile or mile away?
Once again...it doesn't seem to bother you with 500,000+ hunters shooting at larger game, why should predator hunters be singled out?
And...just in case you don't realize it, you very seldom get more than one shot at a coyote. Especially at night.
Its quite evident from the two statements from above that, you haven't got the least bit of experience hunting coyotes. But unfortunetly you are in a position to voice your opinion to people that don't know otherwise. (i.e. Game Managers, & Law Enforcement)
What it all boils down to is...we as predator hunters just don't have the numbers yet, to make the DNR get off its lazy rear and change things. Its just easier for them to sit back and hold their hands out and ask for more funds, but they don't want to do anything to earn it. Need examples? Just look at the surrounding states around Michigan, and look at their game laws and management techniques. Enough said. And...unless you have the numbers, only the larger groups in this state will get any satisfaction. Our smaller group dollars just aren't good enough.Evidently. JMHO. cg

[QuakrTrakr]

Jwick- That's one of the reasons for unting from an elevated blind. The downward direction of the bullet. It's less likely to deflect and hit something when it's aimed towards the ground. Most of your points are based on your opinion, not science or research. Chicken suit huh? You try a chicken suit, and I use full camo, and we'll see who sees more critters.

[YOTEANTIDOTE]

Mr Wicklund,

Hunters orange: I would concede to wearing to and from my calling spot during the day, but at night is just plain stupid!

I have seen DNR officers in the woods on multiple occasions (that means more than once) never were they wearing any hunters orange, as a matter of fact they were wearing green. Very similar to camo. It is possible that it could save your life so I suggest you start wearing it, unless something has changed and you are now, in that case continue to do so.

Your chicken suit comment shows your ignorance for our sport of calling predators. With great anticipation I will wait for you to post pictures of predators you have harvested while wearing said suit. (with some hunters orange in there I'm sure)

Since you are not ballistically challenged like the rest of us please tell me the ballistics trajectory of a .224 caliber bullet weighing .30gr. with a muzzle velocity of 2,450fps. This is a .22magnum rimfire by the way. Could this projectile travel in excess of 1 mile???

I guess that you must really work in Lansing behind some desk if you think that shotguns are not lethal. When bowhunting you have never had pat hunters come through an area you were hunting. Birds usually flush up, not down!!! (nothing against pat hunters at all!)

I have no stat's to back me up but most people know that the .22mag. has probable taken more deer illegally than any other caliber.

Please tell me with all your experience how I could use the guise of predator hunting to poach deer. Let's see,....My electronic caller is playing the dyeing rabbit blues and my intended target is deer. Just doesn't add up. Still would need it cased while in transportation.

You talk down to us!!!! We are guilty until proven innocent in your eyes.

Sleeping in a tree stand while hunting predators at night. What are you talking about??? How long do your calling stands last? Have you ever called a predator in? Do you exclusively hunt over bait? Have you ever hunted the full moon period at night? Have you ever hunted with a red light at night?
Before you condemn us, just what are your predator hunting credentials?
Where do you draw these conclusions from?
It is no wonder that when we meet up with some one like yourself with inaccurate forgone conlusions that sportsman would dislike the DNR. And you want us to UNITE, go back and read what you posted, then go and unite with your "you must be crazy smiley".

Incase you think I have a problem with LEO's you are wrong, just recently while participating in a predator hunting tournament in Northern MI ,two State Troopers saw my truck parked in the snow on a two track and started shining their spotlight all around. When we packed up and headed over to them, guns slung over our shoulders, they asked if I was stuck and needed help. They just wanted to HELP.

[magnumhntr]

I don't think it is fair to make this a personal bash on JWickland. To me, this debate is his personal opinion, as it is each of ours. I don't think it is fair to make this a personal attack on him just because he is a CO. He is EXPECTED to uphold the laws, regardless of how much we approve or dislike them. He is also allowed to have an opinion, again, whether we agree with it or not. The important part of any debate is to not take it, nor make it a personal attack. It's a discussion of opinions.

I personally value his opinion, and his position as a CO. Without him, there wouldn't be anyone keeping the idiots amongst us under control. Even if I do disagree with him in this discussion. So please, don't attack the man for voicing an opinion....

Chris

[QuakrTrakr]

I don't think it is fair to make this a personal bash on JWickland. To me, this debate is his personal opinion, as it is each of ours. I don't think it is fair to make this a personal attack on him just because he is a CO. He is EXPECTED to uphold the laws, regardless of how much we approve or dislike them. He is also allowed to have an opinion, again, whether we agree with it or not. The important part of any debate is to not take it, nor make it a personal attack. It's a discussion of opinions.

I personally value his opinion, and his position as a CO. Without him, there wouldn't be anyone keeping the idiots amongst us under control. Even if I do disagree with him in this discussion. So please, don't attack the man for voicing an opinion....

Chris
He's a CO!?! Where did you see that? If he is, he really needs to get out there and do some hunting and understand the people he's seeing every day in the field.:dizzy: I did see he's young, that might have something to do with it. He is entitled to his opinion. Right or wrong. But it seems alot of his explainations are very misguided. Maybe some of us MS members need to take him dog hunting! :)

[griffondog]

Magnumhntr is correct personal attacks will get you nowhere. He is telling you the company line that has been drilled in his head by his superiors. He has to deal all day long with road hunters to snaggers. People lie to him all day long to get out of trouble. Keep that in mind the next time you get stopped. Keeping the laws the way they are will make his job easier. That said he enforces the laws not makes them.

The reasons he feels the hunters orange law and the centerfire at night laws shouldn't be changed have been told to you. So your job is to prove those are not valid reasons. Better have the data to back up your claims.

Remember the laws are written to allow the Co's to deal with the lowest denominator of our sport. The centerfire at night law was changed to protect deer not for safety. So you better have the deer hunting groups on your side to have any hope of changing the law. Laws get changed by cutting deals in this state. The deer is king in this state.

Griffondog

[JWICKLUND]

ONCE again. I am not bashing predator hunting. I do predator hunt and have done quite well over the years. I shouldn't have to post pictures to stroke someone's ego. My comments are that of a hunter not as a CO.
To those who think my age has anything to do with it.... How does that matter. I grew up in the U.P. I have hunted my whole life and now I spend just about every day of my life outside in the hunting environment. SHAME on you guys for judging me because of my job.
I try to keep my opinions to myself because I know you guys will blast me everytime I say something because of what I do and not who am am. I posted quotes from the laws. I didn't make them up. These are right from the DNR website.

Someone posted that I don't seem to have any problem letting 500,000+ deer hunters shoot high powerd rifles at something the size of a deer and sending multiple rounds a half mile or mile away?
I don't and the state regulates who can and who cannot depending on where they live. I just was trying to make a point that with all the accidents and damage they do hunting deer, just imagine how many would miss something 1/4 a deer's size.

YOTEANTIDOTE - You stated you would concede to wearing orange to and from your calling spot during the day, but at night is just plain stupid. I may work for the DNR but I am pretty sure most people know the hunters orange requirement states "during daylight hours" I never said anything about wearing orange at night.

The chicken suit comment was to illustrate a point. Not to challenge you guys. My point, and I will make it again, YOU DON'T need to eliminate the orange requirement to get more coyotes. A hat cap vest or rainjacket isn't a lot to ask to save lives and once again.... the hunters orange law is there for just that purpose. Not to keep you from getting a coyote.

I will make a point about ceterfire/rimfire bullets one last time. DO you really need to shoot bigger chunks of lead with high powered rifles at night? 30.06 is a lot bigger lead (and can do more damage) than a .17. That is all I was trying to imply. The state gives you a choice.. Don't hunt at night if you can't play by the rules.

Finally, I know rimfire rifles are responsible for lots of deer taken illegally at night. A lot of effort is taken by the state to try and combat this. I am not trying to get you guys all wound up. I was just trying to show you some of the things that are right there on the dnr website to read for yourself. I guess now that was a bad idea.

[QuakrTrakr]

Jwick- I was responding NOT knowing your job. Why do you think a 30-06 is going to be used at night? I've been pushing in past posts for a .22 centerfire or smaller. That would include the 22-250, .204, 220 Swift, and possibly the .223. Do you really think a .17 is enough to HUMANELY put down a coyote? I've written to many state reps trying to get them to sponsor this bill. Rep. Dudley Spade has introduced a bill to allow predator hunting from an elevated stand.
I (yes me) brought your age up, because it does make a difference. Your experience in the woods does matter, but by the way you respond to some of these posts, it shows you get excited. I didn't grow up until I hit 38 or 39. I understand everyone is different.
Another thing to take in account is, typed words don't talk as plainly as spoken words. I think this is one of the inherant problems of forums in general. It's very hard to try to convey your thoughts without facial expressions, hand gestures, etc.
Just try to be open minded. Most guys here aren't the thugs you see in your job every day. IMO. QT
ps, Do you work with Officer Nightlinger? She's friends with a co-worker of mine.

[JWICKLUND]

I never saw in the original post that they wanted centerfires to be allowed but only certain calibers. The post said centerfire rifles. If it was specified which type my comments would have been different. Until now nobody took a stance on centerfire rifle calibers.
I hunt with a savage .17. I have hunted field and done quite well shooting coyotes with that gun. I admit they don't drop in their tracks like a .222 or .243, but I still go out and I am still get results.
Officer Nightlinger is in District 4 and on the other side of the U.P. although I see her at training.
I come to this website to relax after work. I enjoy reading many of the articles, posts, and opinions on this site. I try to use my knowledge to answer questions in the law forum and help people out. On other forums I try to just be an average joe who likes to hunt and fish and engage in intelligent converstations. Unfortunately I am a target for DNR bashers, cynics, and people looking to stir the pot (so to speak).
I think that if I responded to this original post as a average joe, the overall tone of this thread would have changed. I guess I will stick to cutting and pasting laws in the law forum.

[QuakrTrakr]

My comment on the caliber size was actually on another thread. Sorry. I bet you do get a fair share of unfounded bashing. Kinda like the gas station attendant that gets abused because the gas prices are high.
Stick to your guns , so to say, everyone has their opinions. I've found, especially in these forums, that facts speak louder than opinions. Maybe not so in real life, but every time you can show an example, you just re-enforce your stance. Not everyone is right all the time, (execpt for a few loudmouth members here:lol: ) but this site is great for learning others opinions and experiences.
Like I said earlier about centerfire guns, MOST, not all, bullets are designed to disintregrate upon impact in that small .20 caliber range. The Sierra, the Hornady Vmax, expand explosively, almost to the point where they "splash" when they hit a rib. Here's some good reading. http://www.rugerhunting.com/forum/

[JWICKLUND]

Thanks... :)

[snowman11]

I know this is a predator hunting thread, but my question is in regards to hog hunting.

How does this state expect to eliminate feral hogs WITHOUT opening a night centerfire season?

In other states, it is perfectly legal, and one of the only efficient ways of truly getting rid of them. They are a rather large animal, and NOT something I would be wanting to chance with a 22 rimfire. 223, maybe, 35 rem, better.

[crittrgittr]

Mr. Wicklund...

I hope you didn't take my remarks as personal attacks against you, because of your profession.I have a lot of respect for the CO's out there. Its a tough job. I wish that there were more of you out there.
Some of your remarks were taken the way they were, because of how they were written. Since you have come back and clarified them some, explains things a little different. I would have stated my remarks the same to anybody, whether they were from a CO, or an average joe.
You take offense to being treated differently because of your job. Then you should also realize why I also, take offense to being lumped into the same category as your every day deer hunter and/or poacher.
Just because I choose to pursue an animal thats 1/4 the size of a deer, with a high powered rifle, doesn't mean that I'm an inconsiderate slob hunter and an idiot with regards as to what my firearm is capable of.
Every time these subjects come up, with regards to changing some of the laws or restrictions pertaining to predator hunting, we always get the same old lame excuses, most of which were adopted from the deer hunting mentality. All most of us are asking for is, for someone to actually treat us as individuals, and with respect for our concerns, as it pertains to our chosen interest, and NOT to lump us into that same old category that always seems to be so handy for some, in your circle, to dump us into. Just because we don't have the numbers and finacial clout with your superiors, as some other interest groups in this state do, doesn't mean that we deserve any less respect.
Hope this clears some things up for you also.

And...I still want to see some pics of you in your yellow chicken, coyote hunting outfit.;) :) Maybe its a new technique that we all can try. :D

[QuakrTrakr]

I know this is a predator hunting thread, but my question is in regards to hog hunting.

How does this state expect to eliminate feral hogs WITHOUT opening a night centerfire season?

In other states, it is perfectly legal, and one of the only efficient ways of truly getting rid of them. They are a rather large animal, and NOT something I would be wanting to chance with a 22 rimfire. 223, maybe, 35 rem, better.
I don't think the hogs are an asset to the state. Right now as it stands, I believe the DNR looks at them as a nuisance, not a money maker. That and the fact there just aren't that many hogs and/or hunters, would make it very duifficult to get anything on the agenda. They're hoping the deer hunters will be able to help control them. IMO.

[snowman11]

I DEFINATELY dont think the hogs are an asset.

I'm hoping that they are basically evicted from the state....er made extinct in this state.

We DO NOT NEED them.

[VARMINTHUNTERLAKEORION]

As unfairly as it is - people right off the bat want to assume that since we as Predator Hunters want the right to use Centerfire rifles at night assume we are poachers - how untrue this is. We seek the larger calibers for a more humane kill shot and for better accuracy. Another comparisson is when people see AR-15'S, AK-47'S they automatically assume you're a bad person because you have this weapon in your possession. When people put these stereotypes together and spread the word - you're guilty before anything else and it's totally unfair to the legitimate owner who respects the weapon and doesn't rob banks and kill people. And the same thing applys to Centerfire rifles at night - people assume - they are gonna use it for poaching - nope I don't want them legal - to much poaching is gonna happen. Any rifle can and has been used in poaching activitys - for a good example - look at the poaching ring that was just busted operating in and around the Port Huron area - I recall that I read their main weapon was a .17hmr, hmmmm seems to me this weapon is legal to use at night - but do we see any uproar over it being a "Poaching Weapon" of choice - No! I just feel most people jump to a conclusion way too fast and are always looking for a way to put the blame on the Hunter. And another thing that is a bad position to take - is when someone always seems to find a way to put Spin on something that they have done only a Couple a times and have no right to say they are speaking from experience. As far as the CO'S out there - I to wish there were more out there that could actually thin out some of the rift raft out there that do nothing but make the honest sportsman look bad in everyones eyes - The CO'S do have a pretty tough job and if it weren't for them being out there it would be a free for all to the Dumb As#*s out there. No-matter what you do there are always going to be Law breakers that just don't care and it applys to more than just Hunting, up-hold the penaltys and prosecute those that do break the law and not punish us all for a few bad eggs.

[duckhunter382]

the fact that a 17 hmr was used by poachers is probably a noise issue. If center fire rifle were aloud at night the probably would use something bigger. the problem is the fact that poaching is so easy for thos that are determined to do it. I camped in a national forest just north of muskegon a couple years ago for the deer opener. the night before around 2 am all the drunks came out to their campsites after the bars closed. All you heard all night was people shooting. I know that there will never be enough co's to prevent this therefore its just too easy to do. I also know of coon hunters shooting more deer than coons. so with all this existing poaching why not have more hunters out there paying attention at night. If more hunters are out there at night maybe more people would witness deer poachers and call the rap line.

[rochesterhunter]

i also dont think hunter orange should be needed for hunting predators. if your out shooting at a noise you shouldnt be hunting anyways. it should be a personal chocie for your own saftey not a law. look around and see how many other states have a hunter orange law for predator hunting. watch any predator hunting video and see how much orange you see. read any artical on predator hunting basics and it will say good camo is a must.

[rochesterhunter]

and i see no reason not to be able to use a centerfire. look at the states you can use a centerfire at night. im prety sure accidents would happening alot more in a sate like indiana with all the flat open land, yet they are alowed to use centerfires at night, you cant hunt deer with them but you can hunt predators at anytime with anything .

[QuakrTrakr]

and i see no reason not to be able to use a centerfire. look at the states you can use a centerfire at night. im prety sure accidents would happening alot more in a sate like indiana with all the flat open land, yet they are alowed to use centerfires at night, you cant hunt deer with them but you can hunt predators at anytime with anything .

Think about it. Varmint rounds are designed completely different than deer rounds. They're designed to fragment in impact to lessen hide damage. Or in the case of prairie dogs, explode on impact. Case in point, here's a picture of a PD after my centerfire .204 met him. http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l231/bergcrane2/DSCF0116.jpg
A deer cartridge is designed for penetration. A fragmentation type bullet will explode and lose most to all energy if it even hits a twig. There's a bill in the House right now to allow hunting predators from elevated blinds, which would even lessen the chance of an accident even more! I think centerfire is fine if you keep the caliber .22 and below. When's the last time you even heard of anyone being injured predator hunting? Let alone being shot?

[rochesterhunter]

yea i dont see a reason behind not being able to use them. and i dont know if you were talking about night hunting or not but for daytime predator hunting as of this year it is legal to hunt out of and elevated stand, now we can just hope the same will happen for the night

[QuakrTrakr]

yea i dont see a reason behind not being able to use them. and i dont know if you were talking about night hunting or not but for daytime predator hunting as of this year it is legal to hunt out of and elevated stand, now we can just hope the same will happen for the night

Are you sure? I was one of the guys that that really tried to get that bill going, and last I heard from the Congressman, it was still in committee. I'll email him to see where it's at. I'll get back.

[rochesterhunter]

yea i found it on the "ask dnr" site. its in the hunting rules and regulations in the first few pages under the new laws section along with the new baiting laws for trapping and predator hunting. so score one for the home team now we just have to get a few more changes and well be as good as gold. their was a petition on the predator masters fourm for changing the hunter orange law, centerfire law, and night time elevated platform law ill try to find it if you are interseted

Can I hunt predators from a raised platform or tree stand with a firearm?http://midnr.custhelp.com/rnt/rnw/img/trnsp.gif Question Can I hunt predators from a raised platform or tree stand with a firearm?http://midnr.custhelp.com/rnt/rnw/img/trnsp.gif Answer Yes, Fox and coyotes can be hunted from elevated platforms from one-half before sunrise to one-half hour after sunset.
Click here for more information (http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363---,00.html).

[QuakrTrakr]

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(0tq1no3pgmia4g45mupnff55))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2006-hb-5673
This is the last action by the legislature. Maybe the DNR saw the writing on the wall, and went ahead with this to not look stupid. Origionally, it was "predator" hunting. I see that it changed to "fox & coyote" hunting. Either way, Rep. Dudley Spade is the man that got this going in the House! :woohoo1:Do you have a more accurate link?

[rochesterhunter]

i looked everywhere on the webpage and could not find anything else i am sure it is in there somewhere . If you have a rules and regulations book handy i am 100 percent sure that it is in there. ill do some more looking and post if i find anything.

[rochesterhunter]

i think that this should do the trick. http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_38954-150265--,00.html

[QuakrTrakr]

i think that this should do the trick. http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_38954-150265--,00.html

You, are the man! If you don't mind, I'm gonna use your link, and let Mike Avery along with a few others know!

[rochesterhunter]

ha thanks. now hopefully next year in the same pages well have a few more new predator law changes. good luck this season.

[QuakrTrakr]

ha thanks. now hopefully next year in the same pages well have a few more new predator law changes. good luck this season.

We'll see. I know the original bill is still in congress. It's amazing how the DNR will change their tune when a bill is about to pass! :lol: BTW- I missed a big ole male yote with my bow this year. I smacked a decent female last year.

[rochesterhunter]

yea you never know how things are going to turn out with them. do you spend alot of time targeting predators? i have only called twice this year and had a cat come in. now deer seasons over its game on im actualy heading to indiana friday to hunt a freinds farm and hopefully get some grays.

[QuakrTrakr]

yea you never know how things are going to turn out with them. do you spend alot of time targeting predators? i have only called twice this year and had a cat come in. now deer seasons over its game on im actualy heading to indiana friday to hunt a freinds farm and hopefully get some grays.
I try to find as much time as I can. That's my busy time at work. I have a few different properties I get to hunt for them. I used to ice fish alot, but with bad ice, it's safer (and alot more fun) to shoot dogs. I'm going to try harder during breeding season this year. Usually, I'm in the boat brown/walleye fishing. I have an old wise male that almost sounds like a hound when he howls that I've been rtrying to get for a couple years now, but he's wayyy too smart.

[rochesterhunter]

haha they all seem to get a little to smart. iv been really working on my howling so hopefully that will pay off for me. iv got 2 weeks off from school over christmas so its the up for the first week and manistee for the second chasing them.

[QuakrTrakr]

Good news. Mike Avery just got back to me. He hadn't heard. Listen to his show this week, I'd bet he'll talk extensively about it.
I just got back from Wyoming/Montana for a muley/lopey hunt. We got done early so we figured we'd shoot some "dumb" coyotes. HA! They were more skittish than ours here! Most wouldn't even respond to our calls, and the ones that did, busted us a 400+ yards!

[rochesterhunter]

yea i dont think to many people knew about the change. yea last time i was out in wyo they were hunting them out of a bubble choper, i think id be a little skitish to, but the prarie dogs sure are fun .

[QuakrTrakr]

Like this!?!
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l231/bergcrane2/DSCF0116.jpg

[rochesterhunter]

hahah exactly. where in wyo?

[QuakrTrakr]

Just across the border from Montana, south of Broadus. About an hour north of Gillette. Like I said, we got done early and drove all the way over to Yellowstone while our deer were being processed. So we saw quite a bit of the state. Where were you?

[rochesterhunter]

we always went to douglas back when i was realy young i havnt been out in about 6 years

[muckamuck4]

Awww, thats cute!!! you guys dating now???:D

Just pickin on ya;)

[QuakrTrakr]

Awww, thats cute!!! you guys dating now???:D

Just pickin on ya;)

You haven't been dating a senator from Idaho have you? :p

[muckamuck4]

You haven't been dating a senator from Idaho have you? :p

haha...i plead the 5th!!! j/p