Brace Height, Foregiveness, and Draw Lengths

[farmlegend]

Looking for some advice from our resident experts here -

Fellas, I change bows about once a decade, and this is the year.

Since I was last in the market, lotsa things have changed. Back then, a 37" axle-to-axle was something you'd only find on a youth bow(OK, I'm exagerating a little).

Though I've got decent form, I really don't shoot a lot; in fact, not at all between Christmas and about August 1; I don't do any 3-D, in fact, all of my practice is with broadheads. I've always valued "foregiveness" highly, and have preferred longer bows with generous brace heights. I've been using a Mathews Rival Pro, which has 8" brace height and 40" A2A. Sweet shooter, but it's starting to throw off some bad karma.

Now, I was visiting the "huntersfriend" website, and found some stuff that said brace height is much less critical for archers with shorter draw lengths. Sounds interesting to me, since my DL is only 27.5". Seems to make sense, too, based on their explanation:


"Short-Draw Archers - Built in Forgiveness
However, if you are a short-draw archer (27" draw length or less), you'll be pleased to know you have a nice advantage regarding forgiveness and shootability on your compound bow. A bow which has a 6" brace height and is set for long 30" draw length will have roughly a 24" powerstroke. This means the during the shot, the arrow will remain in-contact with the string for approximately 24" - until the arrow finally releases. This would generally make for a rather unforgiving setup. But that same bow in the hands of the short-draw archer will be considerably MORE forgiving to shoot. Why? If a short-draw archer shoots the same bow at - say - 26" draw length, his/her powerstroke will only be 20" long, rather than 24". So the short-draw archer's arrow gets off the string in a shorter distance - thus the short-draw archer has some "built-in" benefits of forgiveness. If you are a short-draw archer, don't spend too much time fretting over brace height. Instead, consider shooting a bow that's a little more aggressive. The same bow that might give your 6'4" hunting buddy fits, will be quite manageable when set for your short draw length. And choosing a more aggressive bow will help you to recover some of the speed and power lost in a short-draw setup."

Is this true?

FWIW, I shot the new Darton Pro3000 (34.5 A2A, 6.25"BH) this past weekend, and I really liked it. I have shot shorter bows with more aggressive brace heights before, but this thing just had the feel of being much more manageable than what I'd experienced before. Looking forward to trying out the Pro2000 soon, which appears a little more forgiving, with a 7.25" brace height.

Any thoughts on this?

[MuskyDan]

I am 26 but sshoot a bit long because of the availibility of bows. Fow overall performance I would have said the bowtech allegiance until I shot the new Fred Bear Truth bow. It is smooth, forgiving, and comfortable to shoot. Plus the price is nice.

[farmlegend]

MD, I'm not looking to be steered to a particular brand/model. Just looking for advice on the concepts at play here.

[kingfishcam]

If you stay over 7 inches, the bow will be a good shooter.

My Tomcat had 8.25 or 8.5, and was VERY easy to shoot. A definate difference from 8.5 to mt 7.25 Guardian.

[Joe Archer]

It sounds to me like you have enough information to make up your mind but seem to be looking for some positive reinfircement. Bow selection is a very personal thing. You do seem to have scientific evidence that your short draw length is compatible with a lower brace height. Still, if you increase brace height even you would gain some stability under some situations.
In any case, you have already shot the bow, it felt good, and you liked it... If that is the case, I would say go for it.
<----<<<

[Michihunter]

Hunters friend is absolutely correct in their assessment. You will have the extra power stroke that is given up to short DL shooters and the BH is going to be less critical. Go with what is most comfortable to you and in the end, none of the other stuff will matter.;)

[TnRidge]

I prefer a little more fogiveness in brace height for a hunting bow . Around 7-7.5" is average for a 31-34" ATA bow .
The real test is how well the bow shoots and feels in your hands .

[DirtySteve]

I will agree with michihunter. Trust the info on hunterfriend. if you are shooting a long brace height you can probably shorten up a bit and take advantage of the speed increase you usually get with a shorter bow with shorter brace heigth....try it out and see how it feels to you. If you don't like the feel when you change to a shorter bow try a split limb bow if you haven't. Sometimes the extra width on the limbs will feel a little more stable. That could make up for the loss of steadiness you may feel with the shorter bow.

[Thunderhead]

If I were you, I'd just visit a few bow shops and try them till I found one that I liked and felt " right "
You'll know it when you see it.

The best piece of advise I can give is this:

Don't buy a new bow. At 700.00 and up this is just plain crazy.
There are guys that upgrade every year to a new bow. The bow they bought last year for a grand, is now on the rack for 300.00.

You pay big jack for a new bow and by the time you walk to your car with it, it's lost half it's resale value. Not worth it. You can find brand new " used " bows and save yourself some big money.

For what it's worth, I'm still shooting an old Jennings Carbon Extreme and she's probably pushing 14 years old.

[fairfax1]

I just completed -(Wednesday)- my similar adventure. I too buy a bow once a decade and this was the year...tho I've been doing the research for 18-months.

I ended up ordering a new Mathews Prestige....even tho I now have a 6-week wait to get it.

I have a 28" DL and want to keep my DW between 55 & 60lbs...no more....yet, get about 63 to 65lbs of KE.

As far as the BH issue with short draw shooters - I read a long thread on AT regarding it. A poster was articulate and presented a credible case....in that, short BH are more manageable for us guys with short draws (28" and under)...and that old rule-of-thumb of high BH = forgiveness........is more applicable to long DL guys......AND....with the older style bows. It was convincing enough for me. Plus I already knew that I would have to go with a "speed bow" in order to get my KE and most speed bows come with lower BH in order to maximize the power-stroke. That didn't concern me as my current dual hatchet-cammed Darton is 6 1/2"

If you are interested in reading the thread you can 'Search' it on AT.

I noted that you aren't looking for direction to makes & models...but.........after going through all the gyrations I have for months at least humor me by letting me dump it out:

I tried the Hoyts: Vectrix, Vectrix XL & Vulcan.
Mathews: Switchback, SBXT, Drenaline, and Prestige

And even tho I had convinced myself that I would stick only to Hoyts & Mathews.....I did get a chance to shoot the short draw (27.5" maximum) Bowtech Equalizer.

The two bows that I was most impressed with were ..of course, the Prestige.......but that darn Bowtech surprised me. It was a very pleasant bow to shoot...even tho it was a 1/2" too short in DL.

I read on this forum a couple of weeks ago a post by GVDoc about the new Dartons and the impressive speeds they were getting out of them. It intrigued me but I've been shooting Dartons' since 1980 and thought it was time to change.

Lastly, someone here mentioned 'used' bows. He's right. The classifieds on AT are amazing. I very nearly bought my Prestige out of the Classified's ...it would have saved me $225 over the brand new one.......but, I figured a warranty on these bows is good for my peace of mind.

Note also,........the re-sale value on Mathews is by far the best. Hoyt's second best. Darton is pretty far down the food chain, along with the other 60+ brands of bows being marketed these days. (..there must be close to a thousand different 'models' offered to the market today. Talk about choice.)

[FullQuiver]

The fact that you have a shorter power stroke does mean less time on the string for the arrow, thus less time for a mistake with the possibility of a flaw in your form, BUT having the string stop so close to your bowhand increases the possibility of contact with hunting clothes, less balance in the sense of a torque problem to begin with while drawing the bow and lets not forget the arrow being on the string longer ( even though it's not as long as someone with a longer draw length, and why give up that advantage). Shortening the brace height is strictly a function of speed!!!! Accuracy I believe is what kills more deer not speed.

[TnRidge]

The fact that you have a shorter power stroke does mean less time on the string for the arrow, thus less time for a mistake with the possibility of a flaw in your form, BUT having the string stop so close to your bowhand increases the possibility of contact with hunting clothes, less balance in the sense of a torque problem to begin with while drawing the bow and lets not forget the arrow being on the string longer ( even though it's not as long as someone with a longer draw length, and why give up that advantage). Shortening the brace height is strictly a function of speed!!!! Accuracy I believe is what kills more deer not speed.

I agree 100% .;)

[fairfax1]

On 'accuracy'........oh I agree. 100%.

But, don't discount the benefits of 'speed'.........or, more accurately in my case, "power".

I use the term 'speed' as a substitute for the word 'power'. I want a bow that can give me about 64lbs of KE. I do not want to pull back 70lbs - or more - to get it. In fact I want to pull back about 10% less than what I get in KE.

Therefore, with my short draw length limiting the power stroke I need to look to what the market calls "speed" bows. "Speed", for me, is my arrow going about 250fps.

In archery circles today.....no one will call 250fps "speedy". But, with a 470 grain arrow it is.... 'powerful'.

[GrizzlyBear]

I agree with Fairfax 100% on this one, speed is an important factor. Not overall speed as in "I need to shoot 320 fps or I won't quite stick the arrow a full foot into the dirt after my passthru." But speed allows me to get a relatively high amount of KE w/ less draw weight.

Sorry to go off topic on that one.

Dan, I know your question was directed at the physics behind the advice on huntersfriend, and the shorter powerstroke of short DL bows does inherently make them more forgiving. But the practical implications that Full quiver are something worth thinking about, especially for someone like you, who bowhunts thru Jan 1. and may be wearing more bulky clothes.

Oh, and don't buy a used bow, in most hunting circles, you cannot reach true "stud" factor until you spend at least 1 mortgage sized payment on a new bow!

[TnRidge]

On 'accuracy'........oh I agree. 100%.

But, don't discount the benefits of 'speed'.........or, more accurately in my case, "power".

I use the term 'speed' as a substitute for the word 'power'. I want a bow that can give me about 64lbs of KE. I do not want to pull back 70lbs - or more - to get it. In fact I want to pull back about 10% less than what I get in KE.

Therefore, with my short draw length limiting the power stroke I need to look to what the market calls "speed" bows. "Speed", for me, is my arrow going about 250fps.

In archery circles today.....no one will call 250fps "speedy". But, with a 470 grain arrow it is.... 'powerful'.

Don't be misled into thinking speed will translate into more power or momentum . A in most cases a slower/heavier arrow out of the same bow has more "power" .;)

[fairfax1]

Well, yeah, TN....I've seen a lot of those posts and am willing to agree.

But your "slower & heavier"...........can very very easily describe my specs: 467grains is considered a 'log' on most archery ranges today; and, as I said, 250fps...is nothing special, nothing special at all.

467grains is about as heavy as one can go with a 28" carbon arrow / 100grn head. That is without resorting to insert tubes or step up to "Grizsticks".

So, I'm OK with slow & heavy. I just want my slow & heavy to be fast. Relatively speaking.


Then GrizBrs comments on bulky clothes / shooting form etc. Having shot a low brace height bow for the last 10yrs without ever having a problem I tend to minimize the issue; however, I do recognize some folks just hold bows differently than other.

FL seems quite capable of noodling out what needs to be done without my advice......but, if he fears contact issues an hour with a shooting coach and another hour at the range can do wonders. Just like a swing coach on the driving range.


.......................

I'm not tryin' to hijack FL's thead....it's just that I've been living and breathing this stuff since the deer season ended on January 2nd......so I am, at present, "wired" into the topic.

It'll fade.

[deerslayer#1]

Don't be misled into thinking speed will translate into more power or momentum . A in most cases a slower/heavier arrow out of the same bow has more "power" .;)

Thats what makes buying a new bow so nice. You can update with less draw weight, and gain speed, also "power". Thats why bows keep getting more expensive and yes "faster". Faster = flatter flatter = gained accuracy "period".:coolgleam

[Kelly Johnson]

Hunters Friend is correct...but so is FQ.

Given your practice regime and DL I'd look for a bow btw 34 and 37" ata and still 7" or above.

I was fortunate enough to have a similar conversation with a guy named John Shepley from PSE a couple years ago. His advice was if you shoot a release add 5" to your DL and don't shoot a bow less than that ATA. Fingers make it 8".

Not to say it can't be done....I've seen Deputy (on here) shoot a 32" bow at 31" DL and put it where he wants it (most times:D ) But he works at it and could still prolly do it easier with a longer bow.

The ATA will come down to what your used to in a bigger way I think.
I wouldn't get to crazy with the change unless your in for some more time in the range. 3-4" aint big but shrink from your Rival to a 31" rocket and you'll have a hard time adjusting.

One often overlooked factor is the relation of ATA to brace in regards to what the string does. With a 40" bow you prolly have 36" or so in string...the longer the distance btw cams the farther forward that string will come into the grip or hand area after the shot. Shorten the ATA and the string doesn't have the same range even at the same DL.

So you may get a bow that's 35" ata and 7" brace and actually have the arrow off the string faster than with you Rival pro now.

[Grouse Hunter]

Hunters Friend is correct...but so is FQ.

Given your practice regime and DL I'd look for a bow btw 34 and 37" ata and still 7" or above.

I was fortunate enough to have a similar conversation with a guy named John Shepley from PSE a couple years ago. His advice was if you shoot a release add 5" to your DL and don't shoot a bow less than that ATA. Fingers make it 8".

Not to say it can't be done....I've seen Deputy (on here) shoot a 32" bow at 31" DL and put it where he wants it (most times:D ) But he works at it and could still prolly do it easier with a longer bow.

The ATA will come down to what your used to in a bigger way I think.
I wouldn't get to crazy with the change unless your in for some more time in the range. 3-4" aint big but shrink from your Rival to a 31" rocket and you'll have a hard time adjusting.

One often overlooked factor is the relation of ATA to brace in regards to what the string does. With a 40" bow you prolly have 36" or so in string...the longer the distance btw cams the farther forward that string will come into the grip or hand area after the shot. Shorten the ATA and the string doesn't have the same range even at the same DL.

So you may get a bow that's 35" ata and 7" brace and actually have the arrow off the string faster than with you Rival pro now.


As always, right on Brother!

[farmlegend]

Fellas, mucho gracias for the great dialog! Exactly what I was hoping for.


Don't be misled into thinking speed will translate into more power or momentum . A in most cases a slower/heavier arrow out of the same bow has more "power" .;)
Don't want to sidetrack this fine thread into "Dr. Ashby-land", but I tend to agree. I like my arrows to weigh in at no less than 500 grains. How's this - a more aggressive bow will allow me to launch an arrow with greater momentum than a less aggressive bow.:D

I will be buying "new". I don't like to tinker with the bow myself, and want first-class service from the dealer - to me, that means paying "full retail". Whomever I buy from - I want them to make some money off of me.

[Erik]

I will be buying "new". I don't like to tinker with the bow myself, and want first-class service from the dealer - to me, that means paying "full retail". Whomever I buy from - I want them to make some money off of me.


Kudos to you FL. If more americans thought that way we would all be better off.
They sure wouldn't be outsourcing all our jobs to third world countries thats for sure.

On the subject...
When I purchased my last bow I went with a little longer limbs and gave up some of the brace height/speed. I shot several bows and the one I liked best was the hoyt ultratek with the 2000 limbs. The shorter limbs were faster according to specs but I honestly couldn't tell any difference. The longer limbs just seemed more comfortable to me which is why I was buying a new bow in the first place. My old bow was starting to feel more like work when I would practice with it. My new bow is a pleasure to practice with. I really really like my hoyt!

[Grouse Hunter]

Thats true, the new Hoyt Vulcan might be right up your alley FL.

[Ninja]

FL,
We sold the Pro 3000 you shot, I hope to hear from Darton tomorrow for an ETA on a Pro 2000.

I'll let you know as soon as I find out.

[Michihunter]

Hunters Friend is correct...but so is FQ.

Given your practice regime and DL I'd look for a bow btw 34 and 37" ata and still 7" or above.

I was fortunate enough to have a similar conversation with a guy named John Shepley from PSE a couple years ago. His advice was if you shoot a release add 5" to your DL and don't shoot a bow less than that ATA. Fingers make it 8".

Not to say it can't be done....I've seen Deputy (on here) shoot a 32" bow at 31" DL and put it where he wants it (most times:D ) But he works at it and could still prolly do it easier with a longer bow.

The ATA will come down to what your used to in a bigger way I think.
I wouldn't get to crazy with the change unless your in for some more time in the range. 3-4" aint big but shrink from your Rival to a 31" rocket and you'll have a hard time adjusting.

One often overlooked factor is the relation of ATA to brace in regards to what the string does. With a 40" bow you prolly have 36" or so in string...the longer the distance btw cams the farther forward that string will come into the grip or hand area after the shot. Shorten the ATA and the string doesn't have the same range even at the same DL.

So you may get a bow that's 35" ata and 7" brace and actually have the arrow off the string faster than with you Rival pro now.

I guess all us 29-30" shooters are in real trouble now considering the majority of bows are under 35" noawadays!!:yikes: :lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

I have yet to shoot a bow under 36" with a 32.5" DL that is worth a squirt. They are little toys for little boys :evil: .

I've shot em all and I don't even bother to take them off the rack when looking at a new bow. It's the first thing I look at is the ATA and then max DL. My DL eliminates the majority of bows on the market so it narrows my search quickly but this year I have quite a few bows to choose from in the 32" DL range and 35"+ ATA, so it's gonna be fun.

I was fortunate enough to have a similar conversation with a guy named John Shepley from PSE a couple years ago. His advice was if you shoot a release add 5" to your DL and don't shoot a bow less than that ATA. Fingers make it 8".


Best advice I have heard in a very long time!

[Death_From_Above]

I'm a little confused here. My draw length is 29 inches. So if I shoot release am i suppose to add 5" to my DL? Or DL = 34"? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Or is my ATA to be no shorter than 34"? That makes a little more sense to me.

Please straighten me out?

[TnRidge]

I believe it's 5" inches added to the draw length measurement for a release shooter to arrive at the minimum axle to axle length .
Finger shooters need additional ATA length to reduce finger pinch . I used to shoot bows over 40" when I shot fingers .

[Michihunter]

I'm a little confused here. My draw length is 29 inches. So if I shoot release am i suppose to add 5" to my DL? Or DL = 34"? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Or is my ATA to be no shorter than 34"? That makes a little more sense to me.

Please straighten me out?

The added 5" is for the AtA length recommendation.
That's a recommendation from one person. Granted, Pete Shepley knows bows, but I can tell ya that my personal experience is quite different. I shoot a bow that is .5" longer than my DL!! 29.5 AtA bow with a 29" DL. Hit what I'm aiming at up to 40 yards no problem.