Ranches, Fenced in Hunts

[IR john]

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif Ranches, Fenced in Hunts
Are we to blame?

With most of the TV shows on the air today being those on a GAME RANCH or FENCED IN HUNT are we to blame.

Is this the type of shows that hunter want to watch? I remember a show awhile back called The Do-It Yourself Hunter. This show traveled around hunting on state land, hunting different types of game. It showed average size animals, not monster game ranch game. Realistic, very much so, a show most hunters could relate too.

What happened to this show, not enough viewer support and it was cancelled. So I ask, why do we continue to watch and support shows highlighting GAME RANCHES and FENCED IN HUNTS?

Even most of the Big Shows based out of Michigan are traveling to these now.

All Comments Welcome

[tallbear]

I've hunted "game ranch" animals in the past. Game not native to Michigan like red stag, fallow deer, russian hog, american bison, etc. If I don't hunt a ranch for these, I'm spending much more to hunt them in the wild.

I'm not "trophy" hunting but want a nice mount when I'm done. More importantly, I want to take the meat home. If I hunted red stag in Europe, I'd have to leave the meat there. I think it's great to have places like Taxas that offer African game. Hope to be able to do that someday.

Get on a good size piece of property and it's not easy ( or "canned" as some say) to get the animal you want.

[One Eye]

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif Ranches, Fenced in Hunts
Are we to blame?

All Comments Welcome
Not me. I refuse to watch those shows for this very reason. This is not hunting, but rather the shooting of domestic cattle.

Dan

[November Sunrise]

Not me. I refuse to watch those shows for this very reason. This is not hunting, but rather the shooting of domestic cattle.

Dan

Exactly.

I don't watch any hunting shows, and even if I did, I wouldn't be "blamable".

I'm an enthusiast of personal responsibility - I don't buy into the idea of collective responsibility for the actions of other hunters.

[Mickey Finn]

When discussing game ranches, particularly in Texas. You have to specify low or high fence. There a lot of extremely large ranches in texas that have exotic game roaming free. This would be a different hunt then a smaller ranch that has to maintain a high fence to keep their game in one place.
The larger ranches may only have three or four strand wire fences. Or may use natural borders like rivers or mountains for a property line.

The game ranches here in Michigan are another case all together. These hunts are more for recreation and not to be confused with free range hunting.

With this in mind, a ranch hunt in the west where serious game management is practiced will allways produce quality animals. Which produces quality hunts for these shows. It must be alot cheaper to film a hunt here than in a poorly managed piece of public land where you may have to share the land with other outdoors people.

I suppose it is just makes more sense to film these hunts than take all the chances of filming on public land.

As for we hunters having to watch these shows. We don't. But they do show hunting in a good light for the non hunting public.

Thats what I think anyway.

[ibthetrout]

Maybe it's just a lack of hunting shows that gets us to watch these canned hunts. I have very limited cable and watch anything I can find. Usually it's only on Sunday mornings.

[2PawsRiver]

I don't generally watch the hunting shows and as for the Game Ranches in Michigan, I don't have a problem with them, other then it shouldn't be called hunting.

If a guy wants to pay to shoot a Deer on a Game Ranch, more power to he or her, but just call it "Harvesting" and quit referring to it as hunting.

I do agree they are usually done professionally and are pretty good entertainment, possibly for the nonhunting public.

[SgtSabre]

Could you imagine if a producer filmed a public-land hunt in Michigan? Let's think about how some of the narration would have to go:

"We hunted hard but saw nothing until 9am, when this group of hunters parked thier truck not three hundred yards from our stand, walked over to us and called aloud 'seeing anything?' We all got a good laugh as one of them tripped on a stump and spilled his beer"

*flip to shot of a hunter accross a field looking through his scope, rifle pointed right at the camera, and waving* "This gentleman didn't seem to be having any more luck than us"

*finally, a deer comes in* "On our second morning, this nice buck came in to our stand. We were awe-struck by this animal, truly a bruiser of a trophy for this area" *cut to shot of basket-rack six-point frantically running accross a field, shots ringing out in all directions and a few rounds snapping past our camera*

Ya, I'd buy that...

[Mickey Finn]

Sgtsabre, I think your on too something. I bet that Video would sell big.

You'd be on easy street.;)

[Michihunter]

Just curious as to how many of the nay sayers have actually been behind the "high fence" and experienced how "easy" you say it is?

[hyperformance1]

whats the difference to hunting a preserve or a guy going out and putting a few bags of bait down in the wild that isn't hunting.

[IR john]

With only three post, keep this up and you will known as the tread killer!:)


whats the difference to hunting a preserve or a guy going out and putting a few bags of bait down in the wild that isn't hunting.

[answerguy8]

How do we know what percentage of shows are done in a fenced reserve? Are there any disclaimers before, during or after the show? If there aren't there probably should be.

[Radar420]

How do we know what percentage of shows are done in a fenced reserve? Are there any disclaimers before, during or after the show? If there aren't there probably should be.

At the end of the shows there are usually thank you's at the end like "we'd like to thank such and such guide at .... ranch. Here's a phone number and e-mail address where you can contact them and they'll get you set up for a great hunt." But they don't usually specify if it's fenced or not.

[Whit1]

whats the difference to hunting a preserve or a guy going out and putting a few bags of bait down in the wild that isn't hunting.

Posts that take this thread into the unending debate of bait vs. no-bait will be deleted from this thread.

[swampbuck62]

As I have said I have hunted high fenced as well as large tracts of private land. I have also hunted my share of overcroweded public land. To each his own I get so tired of hunters and sportsman tearing each other down over this topic. You have to have an open mind and look at both sides of the issue. If it's not for you great if you enjoy it great also. But don't knock something you know nothing about. Just because you think something is moraly or ethicly wrong does not make it so. I know several Doctors and CEO types who just don't have time to scout and get in the woods as much as we do, But they still like to get into the woods even if it's just a couple days. Yes these guys are paying big bucks for some of these hunts. The good high fence operations don't "Guranty"a kill. And thats what most of the guys I know go on.

I THINK ALOT OF THIS JUST BOILS DOWN TO CLASS ENVY. These guys can aford these high$ and most of us can't.

Since this thread started I booked another hunt for me and my son. A buddy hunt to the Legends Ranch next year. If I'm still around I'll post pics.

[Sib]

I guess if I were to look at who is responsible for current programming I'd start my search with the companies that sponsor these shows via advertising dollars. Without advertising these shows wouldn't exist.

[2PawsRiver]

I THINK ALOT OF THIS JUST BOILS DOWN TO CLASS ENVY.

I agree 100 percent, but one day those Doctors and Lawyers may reach a point in there life where they won't have to stoop to hunting Ranches and Enclosures.:D

[yoopertoo]

I THINK ALOT OF THIS JUST BOILS DOWN TO CLASS ENVY.

Or maybe some people enjoy conscpicuous consumption. Goes both ways.

I have nothing against ranch hunts. I'm seriously considering it for a bison. What the heck I get some great meat, and I think it would be some fun even on a ranch.

BUT .. I get the biggest thrill from scouting preseason and finding a rub line on some remote chunk of land in the UP. I love trying to figure out a bucks pattern on a big peice of land that I know is very lightly hunted (damn it's had, at least for me :) . I'll admit it. I'm a very mediocre hunter, but man I love the hunt!!

[answerguy8]

Or maybe some people enjoy conscpicuous consumption. Goes both ways.

I have nothing against ranch hunts. I'm seriously considering it for a bison. What the heck I get some great meat, and I think it would be some fun even on a ranch.

BUT .. I get the biggest thrill from scouting preseason and finding a rub line on some remote chunk of land in the UP. I love trying to figure out a bucks pattern on a big peice of land that I know is very lightly hunted (damn it's had, at least for me :) . I'll admit it. I'm a very mediocre hunter, but man I love the hunt!!

So what does it cost to shoot a buffalo. At the least they are going to charge you for what they could get for the meat and hide. How much on top of that?

[yoopertoo]

So what does it cost to shoot a buffalo. At the least they are going to charge you for what they could get for the meat and hide. How much on top of that?

It varies, but it looks like you can get a cow for meat for about $1000. I think you can get about 400 lbs of meat from a good sized cow. If you shoot a bull they have trophy fees. A big bull can have a large trophy fee. I'm not interested in paying a trophy fee.

[Nick1972]

When hunting shows highlight game ranch hunts I think it does a diservice to our sport. I believe it is a gross misrepresentation of reality. I do not believe there is anything wrong with harvesting an animal in a pen, but do not call it hunting call it farming. If shows are going to continue to show penned hunts they need to be very clear on where they are and what the animal in real money would cost. I remember the old shows back in the 80s highlighting hunts showing game like the ones most people are accustom to. I would like to see a push in the media back to REAL hunting.I believe shows like this contribute to the declining interest in our sport, as they seem to belittle my 86 B&C 8 point(who was about 3 years old) and set new hunters up to be easily discouraged.:help:

[2PawsRiver]

400 pounds is about right, but you have to take your time and get everything. They are not easy to process. Had the opportunity to do two this past summer. Luckily we had the use of some heavy equipment to move them around initially.

These ran about 1100 pounds and 1500 pounds each estimating, but there is alot of weight in the hide head and bone structure. If you look close they are not built like a deer where the bulk is in the hind quarters. They are like body builders with their bulk in the chest and shoulders. If you look at the pictures you will see what I mean. I am 6'2" 250 to give some size reference. Each hind quarter was less then 100 pounds.

The meat is great. It is the best burger I have ever had. There is alot of meat, but not as much as you would think........but it is well worth it.:)

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/520/medium/Washing_Bufallos1.JPG

These had escaped from a ranch and had to be put down. They were free roaming at the time........as a matter of fact they were free roaming raising hell. Had killed a mule on neighboring property.

Like I said............I have no problem with harvesting, but I woudn't call it hunting. If you have the chance to harvest Buffalo it is well worth it.:)

[yoopertoo]

Like I said............I have no problem with harvesting, but I woudn't call it hunting. If you have the chance to harvest Buffalo it is well worth it.:)

Awesome pictures thanks!

You know Alberta has real free roaming bison you can hunt. They have been free roaming their entire life too. :) I'm not positive but I think the tags are free, but the guide and the hauling out of the bush is very expensive.

[Michihunter]

I'm not sure I'd compare ANY buffalo hunt to a whitetail hunt. These animals are usually not afraid of much and will not avoid man in the same manner as a deer. But I have to repeat, how many that are against ranch hunts have actually had the experience of hunting these enclosures? Some of these places comprise many sq miles of land. In comparison, there are areas I hunt "free roaming" deer with LESS free area available to them. These areas may be bordered by lakes, rivers, canyons or other natural obstacles. And many times are MUCH smaller than a ranch. Yet I would be considered a good hunter if I bagged a 175" deer in those "natural" areas and a shooter of farm aninmals if I were to take a deer off a ranch that had an area of 10sq miles?

[CMR]

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif Ranches, Fenced in Hunts So I ask, why do we continue to watch and support shows highlighting GAME RANCHES and FENCED IN HUNTS?

Even most of the Big Shows based out of Michigan are traveling to these now.

All Comments Welcome

Because the "hunt" has become an issue with antler size, scoring, and "trophy". Its not longer the complete experience of "hunting".

[CMR]

When discussing game ranches, particularly in Texas. You have to specify low or high fence. There a lot of extremely large ranches in texas that have exotic game roaming free. This would be a different hunt then a smaller ranch that has to maintain a high fence to keep their game in one place.

FYI, you will not find an exotic hunt in Texas that does not have a "high fence" around its property, even if its 10,000 acres. Yes, the animals "roam free" but thats within the property. Thats Texas "game management".
There are no low fence exotic game ranches.
Whitetails are a different story though in Texas.

[Neal]

But I have to repeat, how many that are against ranch hunts have actually had the experience of hunting these enclosures?

I don't think you'll find many;)

[answerguy8]

But I have to repeat, how many that are against ranch hunts have actually had the experience of hunting these enclosures?

That's not a good arguement. There are lot's of things that I am against that I haven't actually tried, nor will I.

[FrankB]

I have never hunted on a game ranch and wouldn't if I had to pay for it. However, I probably would if by chance I won a hunt in a raffle or something like that. I agree that the majority of the hunting shows have reduced hunting to antler size etc. instead of the hunting experience as it should. I enjoy getting out and I do not place a high value on the size of the animal harvested. The experience with my kids, friends, family and the enjoyment of just being in the woods far exeeds this. I do not have a problem with anyone else who chooses to hunt ranches or anything like that. Just my opinion.

[mydogisscout]

It varies, but it looks like you can get a cow for meat for about $1000. I think you can get about 400 lbs of meat from a good sized cow. If you shoot a bull they have trophy fees. A big bull can have a large trophy fee. I'm not interested in paying a trophy fee.

I got quoted $1200 any buf in the enclosure bulls included. last time I was there (not hunting) I spent the whole day in the enclosure riding around. there were 12 buffs 25 hogs, who-knows-how-many fallow and sika deer, 15 elk, and some red stag. I SAW no buffs, 3 hogs, unknown amount of fallows and sikas, 4 elk, 1 stag. some guy had hunted in there for a hog for 2 days going on his 3rd without seeing one, finally one showed himself to him at the last hour of day 3 and the guy got it.

[Neal]

That's not a good arguement. There are lot's of things that I am against that I haven't actually tried, nor will I.

I think it's a fair question to ask those opposed to it what their real experiances are. It points out that the majority of people against it, are making their decision based something other than reality.

[swampbuck62]

It's like saying chevy sucks if you have never owned one. Or browning is better then Remington if you have not owned or shot both. In order to have an informed opinion or comment you have have to have experienced it. Or know first hand someone who has. Other wise your talking out of your hat.
Hope that does not sound too inflametory.:confused:

I have hunted high fence in Michigan[Legends] As well a ranch in Texas that was over 15k acres. Legends is about 3k acres and was actually a tougher hunt then the hunt in TEXAS.

Again I say if it's not for you don't do it. But if you can ever afford it and try it just once you will want to do it again.:)

One tip stay away from the ranches that guranty a kill.;)

[deputy]

Originally Posted by IR john
Ranches, Fenced in Hunts So I ask, why do we continue to watch and support shows highlighting GAME RANCHES and FENCED IN HUNTS?

Even most of the Big Shows based out of Michigan are traveling to these now.

All Comments Welcome



so what big shows that are michigan based are doing this..............that you know!

[Neal]

Not to speak for anyone, but I know the first WHA "kill for cash and prizes" contest was filmed at The "Lost Arrow" ranch.

[2PawsRiver]

Even Bobby Hill passed on a fenced hunt.:D

[arrowdog]

I have never hunted a game ranch and I don't intend to, thats just my personal choice. I just read recently in North American Whitetail that on their TV show they don't unt at any high fence ranches, only low fence or no fence. Any farm that I have ever had the privelege to hunt had a low fence. That is a show that I will definitely watch. I also watch a lot of the other shows too, but I know that a lot of them are shot at high fence enclosures. As long as there are people willing to spend the money to go there, they will be in business. I do like that P&Y and B&C don't recognize deer shot from high fence enclosures.

[chinamigarden]

Is it viewers or sponsors that keep normal hunting from being a show? If I had a new product to sell do I want it associated with a 6 point 145 lb buck being harvested, or a 180 class brute? If I am paying the same for the product placement I am going for the brute. At least as a sponsor thats the way I would think. So which show is going to suceed and stay on the air. The one with the sponsor money or the one that doesn"t?

[glockman55]

whats the difference to hunting a preserve or a guy going out and putting a few bags of bait down in the wild that isn't hunting.


A few thousand bucks..:lol:

[SevenMaryThree]

I bowhunted a 10,000 acre ranch in south Texas. 9,000 acres was low fence / no fence. They fenced in 1,000 acres and put axis, red stag, scimitar oryx, blackbuck...the usual south Texas suspects.

During my hunt, I hunted outside the enclosure mostly but did sit one morning and and evening inside "the cage". If you hadn't gone through the gate to get in, you'd never know you were in a 'high fence' once you walked into the bush.

Seeing the exotics made for some great picture taking opportunities and kept my wife entertained while the deer hunting was....well, the deer just weren't moving at all. If you've ever hunted south Texas, you know it's not like you can just go after them when they choose not to come out of the bush. You'll bleed to death within 50 yards and make such a ruckus that no deer would stand for it.

I didn't get a buck that trip. It was hotter than hell under a mostly full moon, and the critters were spooky. The fence didn't help me, but I did tip the kid who kept the feeders full anyway. ;)

[tallbear]

Watch close enough and you'll see many of those shows aren't on some "ranch" but are using a guide service.

[Ole Spike]

I would never hunt a "high fenced"area. To me, the fact that B&C and P&Y don't recognize animals that were killed fenced in speaks volumes.

[answerguy8]

I would never hunt a "high fenced"area. To me, the fact that B&C and P&Y don't recognize animals that were killed fenced in speaks volumes.

Exactly, you can no more equate a deer taken at a high fenced area as you can compare dating to visiting a paid professional (insert word of oldest profession here).

[ghostdog524]

I have to ask, does anyone know what happened to the Hunting Show originally posted at the beggining of thie thread?

I think it would be a nice change to have some "Do It Yourself" hunts mixed in with all the Guided or Ranch hunting shows. I watch all the hunting shows I can just because I like Hunting but, I would like to see a few of us knuckle draggers out on state land working our butts off to get a basket rack or even a fork horn. I would love to see a Do It yourselfer get a nice trophy rack and see all the effort put into the hunt.

I think I will go out and buy a video camera and start tapping my hunting excursions and when I finally get a deer I will edit the tape down to show a time lapsed version up to the actual kill.

I just wish I could get away with some of the crap these guys do on most of these shows. :yikes:

[Whit1]

I have to ask, does anyone know what happened to the Hunting Show
I just wish I could get away with some of the crap these guys do on most of these shows. :yikes:


You can! It's found on your TV's remote control. Power button! Channel changing button!

[Hamilton Reef]

TX - Deer breeding becomes a growing industry

The south Guadalupe County ranch was traditionally the domain of cattle, but for the past several years Bugai has dedicated much of his family’s 406-acre spread to one of the state’s fastest-growing agricultural industries — white-tailed deer breeding.

“It is a highly-regulated industry that’s relatively new,” Bugai said. “But its economic impact was $652 million last year, which is very significant.”

http://seguingazette.com/story.lasso?ewcd=fb2d784fded7d2db

[solohunter]

Watch close enough and you'll see many of those shows aren't on some "ranch" but are using a guide service.

you are right, But it doenst show the many hours the guides spend scouting and trailing, patterning the deer for the hunters,
the guides live there, pattern the big bucks and allow camera clowns to shoot them, -V- raising big bucks in a fenced area with feed, nutrients, culling inferior bucks, keeping the ratio down with doe hunts for locals, and allowing clowns with money to shoot them with out spending all summer watching them and patterning them. I am not lowering the bar of any free ranging hunt by any means. So? A- can you afford to spend summer and fall in the woods watching and finding "the One" and ambushing him in season? B- Pick a "lucky spot" on state land and be rewarded with a monster buck? C- reserve a weekend on a ranch and stick a nice buck? and having done all three above I have to ask you to try and remember other than when ;the buck came into view thru the arrow or shot release, and the recovery; B is much more rewarding I will admit, I have a scrubby 5 point on the wall to attest to that, but its up to your budget of time and money and dedication combined. I also have a russian on the wall from inside a fence that was not an easy hunt either. my avitar was a free ranging deer on my property on my birthday, Ya he,s got a spot reserved on the wall when he,s done!

[Fur-minator]

Free range?

This has nothing to do with how easy a hunt will be. Some free range deer are easier to harvest than high fence 15000 acre deer.
Free range also has nothing to do with much room an animal has to roam in an enclosure.

In an enclosure there has to be a selective breeding system to keep a broad gene pool. If your going to breed deer you are going try to select for large antlers so these deer cannot be compared to free range deer.

When hunting free range deer public or private you are still competing with the hunters on the neighboring properties.

When hunting free range deer you are relying on mother nature for good genetics.

Having said this I support everyones right to hunt game ranches and they should be very proud of their trophy and their meat in the freezer.

[srconnell22]

I have never hunted on a game ranch and wouldn't if I had to pay for it. However, I probably would if by chance I won a hunt in a raffle or something like that.

You've summed it up perfectly...most people wouldnt ever hunt one if they had to pay for it. They'd avoid it like the plague. It's a carnal sin against all "hunters" and ethically, it's not for them.

But turn the tables and make it free and all of a sudden everyone who was so against it is now completely for it. Is it a matter of ethics or is it a matter of money?

Are you (not directed at anyone in particular so please dont take offense) a better "hunter" because you shot your spike or 1 1/2 year old 6 point on state land versus a guy who shoots a 10 point on a ranch?

[Fur-minator]

Are you (not directed at anyone in particular so please dont take offense) a better "hunter" because you shot your spike or 1 1/2 year old 6 point on state land versus a guy who shoots a 10 point on a ranch?
[/QUOTE]

I'm not a better hunter but I MAY have more pride in my achievment due to the work I have invested versus the work of a mangement team, breeding system, and guide payed for at a ranch.

Again I would be proud either way but the free range is more important to me.

Just my opinion.

[autumnlovr]

Together we stand....divided we fall. I'm sure the HSUS would love this thread.
If it's legal, we should not be badmouthing it in public. What you say in deer camp stays in deer camp.


Rant over.

[swampbuck]

While I am no fan of high fences. I dont have a problem with people who harvest an animal from them. And I would consider something like harvesting one of those buffalo for meat at a reasonable price. However I would not call it hunting and I would not hang the head on my wall as a trophy.

Someone previously compared it to bait. I think a closer comparison would be the large tracts that are managed for deer. they may not have a fence but several of the "deer" managers redily admit to planting and shaping there property to keep the deer on it. although they dont do it for big antlers like the game ranches ;)

[2PawsRiver]

It has been almost a year since I originally posted on this thread and after a year I would still have to say, using any variation of the term "Hunting" when referring to enclosure harvesting, is just plain wrong.

[ChasinSprints]

No doubt todays hunting shows are motivated by sponsors paying big bucks to promote their products. Their products next to a giant buck may sell more than if it was next to a spike or forkhorn. I watch the shows - I like to see the different animals and of course the monster bucks but also able to see new products that may or may not be of interest to me.
As far as the canned hunts, I personally have not done them nor do I intend to, I still hunt the old fashioned way, the way I learnt 40 years ago.
As far as those that do, so be it....is it really any different than going to a bird farm to shoot pen raised birds that were just released??

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

:yeahthat:

[riverroadbeagles]

Most of these guys on the shows would have a tough time killing a trophy buck on there own. The either hunt in a enclosure or use a guide service to put them on deer. Would I hunt an enclosure yeah but not for whitetails I can shoot them behind my house.

[tbbassdaddy]

My problem is with the escapees!!! If there are going to be ranch "raised" game, then tattoo 'em with the ranch name / brand so when the critters escape, the DNR can collect the fines!!! Oink oink!!! :rant:

I will never support a game ranch!
tb

[Splitshot]

Could you imagine if a producer filmed a public-land hunt in Michigan? Let's think about how some of the narration would have to go:

"We hunted hard but saw nothing until 9am, when this group of hunters parked thier truck not three hundred yards from our stand, walked over to us and called aloud 'seeing anything?' We all got a good laugh as one of them tripped on a stump and spilled his beer"

*flip to shot of a hunter accross a field looking through his scope, rifle pointed right at the camera, and waving* "This gentleman didn't seem to be having any more luck than us"

*finally, a deer comes in* "On our second morning, this nice buck came in to our stand. We were awe-struck by this animal, truly a bruiser of a trophy for this area" *cut to shot of basket-rack six-point frantically running accross a field, shots ringing out in all directions and a few rounds snapping past our camera*

Ya, I'd buy that...

This statement is exactly the kind of cynical statements I would expect to hear from ignorant anti-hunting people that have no clue what goes on in the real outdoors. We all know there are some slobs out there who have total disregard for the laws, but I would never make that kind of generalization about all hunters.

You have to have an open mind and look at both sides of the issue. If it's not for you great if you enjoy it great also. But don't knock something you know nothing about. Just because you think something is moraly or ethicly wrong does not make it so.

This has nothing to do with morals and ethics but standards. There is nothing wrong with hunting fenced in properties. Remember Jimmy Huston hunted in a tree stand in a 2 acre fenced in area and a couple of guys kept the deer moving until Jimmy got a shot. It is not illegal, therefore it is not un-ethical but it is not fair chase either in the opinion of most hunters.

Boon and Crocket and Pope and Young set standards one has to meet to get their animal recognized as a trophy and listed in their trophy books. While shooting your trophy on the Legends Ranch in itself is not un-ethical, trying to get the animal listed in one of the aforementioned books is un-ethical just like hanging it on your wall and not telling people where you killed it.

I know several Doctors and CEO types who just don't have time to scout and get in the woods as much as we do, But they still like to get into the woods even if it's just a couple days. Yes these guys are paying big bucks for some of these hunts. The good high fence operations don't "Guranty"a kill. And thats what most of the guys I know go on.

Most guys I know hunt private land when they can and public land if they must. Many of them could afford to hunt these shooting galleries but choose not to because they have higher standards. Most of them are hard working family men and women who don’t have as much time as some of the people you mentioned. Some of them do their scouting one or two days a year and over time learn the land.

Some guys hunt trophy deer on public land only because they have even higher standards.

I THINK ALOT OF THIS JUST BOILS DOWN TO CLASS ENVY. These guys can aford these high$ and most of us can't.

This class envy statement is perhaps the most insulting thing I have heard toward other hunters since I have been on this Web-site. I dare say most of us who could afford a canned hunt would not do it because it is a way of hunting well below our standards. I don’t blame anyone for rationalizing or justifying why they feel hunting in a fenced in area is no different than hunting wild free ranging animals, but this class envy reason is offensive.


And you said that right after you made this statement. I get so tired of hunters and sportsman tearing each other down over this topic.

I'm not sure I'd compare ANY buffalo hunt to a whitetail hunt. These animals are usually not afraid of much and will not avoid man in the same manner as a deer. But I have to repeat, how many that are against ranch hunts have actually had the experience of hunting these enclosures? Some of these places comprise many sq miles of land. In comparison, there are areas I hunt "free roaming" deer with LESS free area available to them. These areas may be bordered by lakes, rivers, canyons or other natural obstacles. And many times are MUCH smaller than a ranch. Yet I would be considered a good hunter if I bagged a 175" deer in those "natural" areas and a shooter of farm aninmals if I were to take a deer off a ranch that had an area of 10sq miles?

Michihunter, I don’t have to jump out of an airplane at 10,000 feet without a parachute to know what would happen. If you shoot a 175 class deer in a pen, you could consider yourself a good hunter, even a great hunter and that’s fine, but you might find it hard to convince some of us. Again I’m not saying it is un-ethical

Didn’t someone else say they hunted inside the fence and didn’t get a shot so that was their proof it is not easy. What kind of argument is that? Kind of akin to saying I went to a trout river and didn’t catch a 20 incher and I went to the local trout pond and didn’t catch a 20 incher so what’s the difference?

[chuckinduck]

Could you imagine if a producer filmed a public-land hunt in Michigan? Let's think about how some of the narration would have to go:

"We hunted hard but saw nothing until 9am, when this group of hunters parked thier truck not three hundred yards from our stand, walked over to us and called aloud 'seeing anything?' We all got a good laugh as one of them tripped on a stump and spilled his beer"

*flip to shot of a hunter accross a field looking through his scope, rifle pointed right at the camera, and waving* "This gentleman didn't seem to be having any more luck than us"

*finally, a deer comes in* "On our second morning, this nice buck came in to our stand. We were awe-struck by this animal, truly a bruiser of a trophy for this area" *cut to shot of basket-rack six-point frantically running accross a field, shots ringing out in all directions and a few rounds snapping past our camera*

Ya, I'd buy that...

Hahaha, one of the funnier things I've ever read on here....partly because its for the most part true.

[TrekJeff]

When are you people going to understand an old concept that a few guys who had a clue yeaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrs ago came up with.....

"Together we stand, divided we fall":dizzy::idea::16suspect

[Splitshot]

I’m sorry but this is an absurd statement. In fact it is a trite statement worn out by overuse so as to become meaningless. In other words just because the phrase “Together we stand, divided we fall” sounds like words of wisdom, does not make it so.

As outdoors people we all have differences of opinions about many aspects of hunting and fishing and if we feel strongly about something, we have a responsibility to discuss these differences even debate them. If you don’t talk about them, they will never be resolved. If we stifle debate and don’t allow people to speak their mind, we might never know when some genius will come up with the universal solution to a problem.

The purpose of debate is to make people think and make their own decisions. If the debate gets over emotional, then that should be pointed out as well. We will never all just get along, no matter how much some people aspire to that end or no matter how uncomfortable that makes some people feel. If you think you know and understand all sides to all issues, than you could be the exception.

[2PawsRiver]

When the changes that hunting has gone through over the years, to imply that one should support the activities of another simply because it falls under some broad definition of hunting is a bit naieve.

Most recently there was the "Hunting" via ones computer, that I, as well as many did not support, though somebody wanted to call it hunting.

If anybody has the responsiblity to "Police" ones own it should be hunters.

There are aspects that I call "Bull", not as an "Anti" or aggitator, but as a hunter and an outdoorsman. Calling Enclosure Harvesting "Hunting" is one of them.

I agree that we as Outdoorsmen should stand together, but we should also be smart enough to know what to stand by and what to call "Bull."

[TrekJeff]

Don't be sorry, I can have the same opinion of your statement as you have of mine. My point is just that, to each their own. If you choose to stir up issues that give anti's leverage what good is being done for the greater good? Calling a duck a duck is great, my point is many run with thier own personal agendas and forget about the greater good. Enclosure Culling/Harvesting is just that. Harvesting. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me, but the way I understand it the stock that is in an exotic ranch/enclosed hunt is actually label stock, like cattle. If someone wants to pay $1200 for an nice 8 point off a ranch and glorify it with a mount, more power to them. Is it going to change my hunt? No. Am I going to say I'm more of a hunter because I hunt the state land or rather I hunt private land that has a 500 acre food plot that's not fenced and deer have free range?...No. With a food plot like that, why would I need a fence, they aren't going anywhere...there's a fence called clover, alfalfa, rye, greens.
The same sort of debates can be brought up with bear and hounds, buckshot and slugs and the ever sensitive trapping. Opinions are always going to vary, but when they part to the point of turning sportsman against sportsman, who really wins? But then again, maybe that's just an absurd comment as well, Lord knows that every sportsman voted for the Dove season to be banned.:dizzy:

[Ole Spike]

I know several Doctors and CEO types who just don't have time to scout and get in the woods as much as we do, But they still like to get into the woods even if it's just a couple days. Yes these guys are paying big bucks for some of these hunts.
.
IMO if the doctors and CEO types just don't have time to scout and prepare properly for their hunt, then maybe they don't have time to hunt, period.

Many years ago, before I met my ravishing wife, I was dating a girl and her mom and dad became interested in deer hunting and asked me a lot of questions about it because they knew I deer hunted like a maniac. I told them a lot about it and even offered to take them with me, but they declined. Well, the girl eventually got tired of all my BS and dumped me, but I bumped into her mom a few months later, and she said "look at our matching 10 point bucks" and showed me a picture of two nice bucks mounted in their living room. She explained that she and the hubby went "deer hunting" at XYZ megabucks enclosure ranch and took matching 10 point bucks because "we didn't want one of us to take a bigger one than the other". Neither one had ever fired a gun before, as far as I know, and the "taking" of these bucks sounded to me more like shopping for furniture than hunting and put a bad taste in my mouth about "enclosure hunting" that remains to this day. I guess in today's world there are shortcuts to success in anything if you have the $$$.

You guys know where I stand on the issue.

[swampbuck]

When are you people going to understand an old concept that a few guys who had a clue yeaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrs ago came up with.....

"Together we stand, divided we fall":dizzy::idea::16suspect

Theres another one about policing ourselves before someone does it for us. If there is something going on in our sport that we know is wrong to the point that we have to worry about the antis finding out, and we dont take care of it ourselves, then we deserve to eventually suffer the consequences. A good example is baiting. we are eventually going to get burned big time on that one.

[GuT_PiLe]

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif Ranches, Fenced in Hunts
Are we to blame?

With most of the TV shows on the air today being those on a GAME RANCH or FENCED IN HUNT are we to blame.

Is this the type of shows that hunter want to watch? I remember a show awhile back called The Do-It Yourself Hunter. This show traveled around hunting on state land, hunting different types of game. It showed average size animals, not monster game ranch game. Realistic, very much so, a show most hunters could relate too.

What happened to this show, not enough viewer support and it was cancelled. So I ask, why do we continue to watch and support shows highlighting GAME RANCHES and FENCED IN HUNTS?

Even most of the Big Shows based out of Michigan are traveling to these now.

All Comments Welcome

I watch it cause I'm just a strait up fan of the sport altogether.

It's not just about the kill, or the size of the kill.
Thats not why i watch.
I watch because its a person outdoors, i project myself in that stand.
I sometimes start feeling that adrenaline, that rush, that excitement that feeling which is the reason we all venture out into the great outdoors. Whether its fishing or hunting...or even just camping.

Even tho i realize its what people refer to as a "canned" hunt...its not like nothing can be learned by watching. I can get past that part of it.

When the moment of truth comes...where that buck or animal in general is walking in....i'm not only watching the animal, and his/her movements and reactions. I watch the hunter. I watch his/her movements. I look at what he/she does, and when he/she does it. Ya woopee its a big buck...but that buck doesnt know that its fenced in...It still has its primal senses. Its still wary, its still watchful of its surroundings. There is always something you can learn...even if you've seen the same thing 100times.

So I take it all in...ya its managed and all that...and yes, a hunting show that shows more of what the "typical" hunter will see out there would be nice....but if your a fan of hunting, an advocate of hunting, and passionate about the hunting and the outdoors...why wouldnt you watch?

Its either that or the brain numbing, IQ robbing, American Idol, MTV cribs, and all that reality BS that they cram down our throats turning us all into brainwashed drooling morons.

I havent done a ranch hunt. The sense of acomplishment just wouldnt be there for me, and the price is just not worth it.

However i don't think there is a ranch hunt "hater" on this messbo that would turn a hunt down if it were offered to them free and clear. That would just be dumb...as an outdoorsman to turn down an opportunity that not many people get.

So you may knock it, but you'd do it if it were handed to you.

Me i would consider paying for a ranch hunt for like a Russian Razorback or something like that...but for whitetale?....naaah..

we have plenty of those things running around us everyday.....lol


oh and another thing about the show....

with all the bleeding hearts, and anti-hunters out there....

could you imagine if a "realistic" hunting program showed a beautiful harmless, oh so gentle DOE get cut down on TV?....omg...the OUTRAGE!!!!

Thats why they stress MANAGEMENT in these ranch shows ...and only taking 5yr old bucks...thats easy for the uneducated public to understand...but taking a DOE , something without antlers, an animal that bears CHILDREN!!!! in the name of management!!!
Oh the HUMANITY!!!!

hunting would be SHUT DOWN the next day.

lol

[Splitshot]

However i don't think there is a ranch hunt "hater" on this messbo that would turn a hunt down if it were offered to them free and clear. That would just be dumb...as an outdoorsman to turn down an opportunity that not many people get.

So you may knock it, but you'd do it if it were handed to you.



I have been hunting whitetail most of my life. I have shot my share of adult bucks, but never one over 115. and I can tell you for certain that I would turn it down.

[Pinefarm]

Ray,
When a particular high fence establishment by me used to have elk for hunts, I used to stop the truck, whistle to the elk and feed them carrots through the fence, from my hand.
A lot of people would turn it down.

[Ole Spike]

I have never hunted any type of game in an enclosure and never will.:)

[swampbuck]

I would do it if it was free, for fun but mainly for the meat. but I would not hang one on my wall and consider it a trophy.

[NoWake]

Ray,
When a particular high fence establishment by me used to have elk for hunts, I used to stop the truck, whistle to the elk and feed them carrots through the fence, from my hand.
A lot of people would turn it down.



Always had a full load of carrots in the truck to freshen up all your bait piles didn't you. :yikes::lol::lol::lol::evilsmile

[Ranger Ray]

I personally have no intention to ever hunt a enclosed ranch. If you feel the need to hunt one, I have no problem with it. I do think one should give full disclosure as to hunting a fenced ranch when presenting pictures, film or written article of game taken from one.

[unclecbass]

Do what you want. I dont think a canned hunt is as memorable as a wild hunt, but that is just my opinion.

[yoopertoo]

First you have to ask yourself ... is shooting an animal an ethical form of slaughter. I say absolutely yes. So there is nothing wrong with shooting an animal at 100 yrds or 10 feet, or whether that animal is in a pen or running loose. Whether you call it hunting is another story. Personally I don't care how people hunt as long as they follow the game laws of their area. You know there are a lot of people out west who laugh at calling sitting in blinds over food plots hunting. Hey, but I say to each his own.

[2PawsRiver]

You know there are a lot of people out west who laugh at calling sitting in blinds over food plots hunting.

There are alot of people in Michigan that feel the same way;)

[GuT_PiLe]

If someone handed me a hunt, I'd do it just for the experience....
what the hell? Why not?

Like I said, the sense of acomplishment wouldn't be there for me....but that wouldn't stop me from trying new things.

I like to live life and be open minded...whether thats tasting different ethnic foods or a new toothpaste..lol....

hell, where would I be now if i never tried venison?
I shutter at the thought.

I guess "never" just isn't in my vocabulary.
You only live once.

Would i pay for one?....."Never"....lololol.

[Pinefarm]

No Wake, back then...yes, I did! :lol::yikes:

[Splitshot]

Nice spin. I quote you again. However i don't think there is a ranch hunt "hater" on this messbo that would turn a hunt down if it were offered to them free and clear. That would just be dumb...as an outdoorsman to turn down an opportunity that not many people get.

So you may knock it, but you'd do it if it were handed to you.

A couple of things. First I am not ranch hunt "hater" and I don't care who does it. I also did not say it was unethical. I don't think I would be dumb not to take a free hunt. I choose to hunt free ranging, non conditioned deer. If anyone chooses differently, I have no objection.

[old graybeard]

I agree that most people against high fenced ranches have never hunted on one and base their opinions on hearsay mostly. Any high fenced operation could be anywhere from a couple hundred acres to thousands of acres which makes things a bit different to start with. I would like to ask the guys who say most of the TV shows are filmed on high fenced ranches to prove it. As far as why do we watch the shows? For entertainment. Most of us love to see Big bucks and watch hunters hunting them and no matter where the filming takes place there is usually something to be learned from watching the shows. I would say if you believe that the shows are bad and not worth watching, simply turn off the TV or change the channel, the choice is yours to make nobody is forcing you to stay tuned in.

[Dead Bird]

I have done both "ranch" and open terrain "guided" hunts... my personal experience is that a guide that knows his stuff is an easy hunt... there are alot of "easy" hunts.... a ranch my or may not fit this defintion.... just my one cent...

[ironman11]

I don't watch those shows on TV because they don't relate in any way to my hunting adventures. I believe that 'hunting' consists of using your skills to outwit the animals survival skills. That includes scouting, stalking, planning and all the activities that lead up to the moment of truth. Pulling the trigger or releasing the string is easy, not a lot of skill involved there. I have my own standards that I adhere to when hunting, but as long as it's legal, I'll support anyones right to hunt the way they want. As far as ranches, I'd like them outlawed, they are not hunting as they eliminate the fair chase component that is required in a hunt. They also contribute to diseases in herds and non-native species being introduced in the wild. And, no I wouldn't go on a free hunt to these ranches if offered. I would rather go to the meat market to buy meat than support these outfits.

[NoWake]

No Wake, back then...yes, I did! :lol::yikes:


How many 'Hail Mary's' did that cost you after your revelation? :lol:

[Blueump]

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif Ranches, Fenced in Hunts


Even most of the Big Shows based out of Michigan are traveling to these now.

All Comments Welcome

That is not the case for OUR shows. Outdoor Magazine does not promote or encourage "canned" hunts. Everything you see us film is fair chase completely in the wild. We are proud of that fact, and continue to bring you the best of real hunting and fishing. If that means you see us shoot a 100 (or less) class white-tail instead of a 180 on every show, so be it. What you've seen is real!

Believe it or not, fishing shows are many times staged as well. A host will have multiple boats fishing for that one big fish. When it is hooked, he will take his boat next to the angler who caught the fish, stage a hook and fight and land the fish for the camera. We don't do that either. Everything you see on Fishing 411 is real time, real action, real fish - caught by the person holding the rod. Our primary purpose is educating the real fisherman.

The only time I know that Mike Avery ever hunted in a high fence area was for a non-native species of exotic deer. That was a unique, one time opportunity. He even said that on that specific show. I'd still like someone to identify the "most of the big shows in Michigan" that are traveling to these.

[TNL]

IMHO, these types of hunts (high or low fenced, guided, etc) are not "hunting" per se, but shooting. It takes a "hunter's" skills to pick the right habitat, scout, find sign, track, judge wind, get the right set-up, etc.; all in order to be "hunting"...the verb.

Having non-natural conditions such as high fence stocked with game, seasonal baiting, cameras, a guide who has done the scouting, etc, lessens the pure form of hunting and makes the participant more of a "shooter". Ethics, which are your's and your's alone, can only be judged by yourself. Personally, I don't subscribe to these tactics.

I was fortunate enough to get a cow elk tag for Michigan some years back. I scouted with my dad and spent the first part of my season in the woods trying to fill my tag. Work called me out of state and upon my return I decided to hire a guide to help me as time was short. He rounded up his friends and started cruising the roads for elk communicating by cb. They found elk on private property, but never had permission. They finally found a herd in a pasture, stopped traffic on the road, had one guy go up to the farm house and grease the farmer for permission, then told me to shoot the cow across the hood at 30 yards. Worst "hunting" experience ever. I was always refered to as "the shooter" and there was no regard for fair chase, only to fill the tag. NEVER again.

I will continue to watch any hunting show on TV, but with a grain of salt. If they want my respect as a hunter, place them in the middle of state land during rilfe season in Michigan. If thier skills can bag a 170 class deer under those conditions, I will tip my hat to them.

Just my $.02

[stinky reinke]

I look forward to watching these shows anytime I have the chance. It pisses me off though five minutes into the show when some fella passes on a 150 class deer because it has a broken tine or some other stupid reason. There are some groups that produce fair chase hunts that are very good to watch. The Slunger Hollow Boys out of Ohio do a pretty good job and they shoot some monsters. These guys are just like the rest of us, where they enjoy to hunt, they aren't out there to get paid.

[RAGINBUFFALO444]

I look forward to watching these shows anytime I have the chance. It pisses me off though five minutes into the show when some fella passes on a 150 class deer because it has a broken tine or some other stupid reason. There are some groups that produce fair chase hunts that are very good to watch. The Slunger Hollow Boys out of Ohio do a pretty good job and they shoot some monsters. These guys are just like the rest of us, where they enjoy to hunt, they aren't out there to get paid.


I enjoy some of the shows, mainly to lookout for new gear, ammo, etc. I have been on ranches, to fill my freezer with some fine buffalo, yummy!!! and pheasants.my first buffalo cost me some big $$$$ , and i traveled a 1800 miles plus , put in alot of hard work & time about 10 days in all. Killed a 1100# cow bison, on the range free roaming on public land. all in all had a great time . got 373#s of meat. after all expenses were paid the meat cost me over $12.00 per #, not bad . my 2nd one was on a ranch , a cow weighed in @982#after all expeses were paid my meat cost me a little over $2.00 per#. it was on a 265 acre partial wooded pasture. No the thrill isnt the same, it took about 4 1/2 hrs And 4 hrs of drive time. but this was for meat to fill my freezer.yummy! again.

But one day my 8 yr old daughter was watching a father, daughter "HUNT" looked at me and said Daddy i think I need to start going to the range with you! I tell you what , That was one of the biggest thrills of my life!!!:cool:
So now my litte girl likes to hunt with her DADDY. She hasnt got too shoot any thing but paper so far, she gets little discouraged from time to time. I
will make her day, one day when she gets her 1st kill, rather it be on public land or on a ranch, she will know the difference though, betwen the 2. I will make every effort to keep her interested in the sport of hunting! So long as we fun together who cares about fences. I know one thing her ethics will be her own, & she wont be a poacher!:)
I read earlier take a kid to the woods & keep em off the streets, a beautiful concept. Better there ,fenced or not.