View Full Version : Lowarence H2O C
Have been watching the threads for hand held GPS units. I am looking to buy and Garmin seems to be the fav. Was at Gander last night and they said not to exclude the H2O C unit w/ the lakemaster Pro maps. I am a new be to GPS but the unit and maps seemed impressive.
Looking for fishing and hunting, hiking with the unit. Now I see a thread for the maps are available for garmin. store made no mention of that. I am down to the Legend & Vista CX or lowrance H2O C - are the garmins that much better. Store had said they cant keep the lowrences on the self ???
Dan
gilly
12-24-2006, 04:41 PM
I have the H20 BW (before color was available). It is a great unit with no complaints whatsoever. I have the map create software and use it with a windshield suction cup mount in the cars and boat. Still haven't bought a lake map or hot spots for it though. The map create does have navigational aids though such as bouys on LSC etc. Check out Lowrnace's site for tons of info and do a search on here and walleye central for the H20. Lots of info out there...
Midway97
12-24-2006, 05:12 PM
I have the H20 BW (before color was available). It is a great unit with no complaints whatsoever. I have the map create software and use it with a windshield suction cup mount in the cars and boat. Still haven't bought a lake map or hot spots for it though. The map create does have navigational aids though such as bouys on LSC etc. Check out Lowrnace's site for tons of info and do a search on here and walleye central for the H20. Lots of info out there...
I've got the H20 C with the Navionics chip for Lake Michigan, swap it with my Lowrance 337c on the larger boat. Also with the map create software. Like Gilly said.. No Problems. I got mine from the Fishdog guys, best price I could find, considerably less than anything in the local area.
sfw1960
12-24-2006, 07:19 PM
Lakemaster & Navionics support the Lowrance products with more frequent & timely updates it seems...
Might be B/C Lowrance is a bigger company.
I only have experience with Lowrance & Hummminbird (which are interchangeable on mapping chips BTW) and I love all the GPS's I have. (LMS332c - Lowrance , 787c2 -Humminbird and AccuNav Sport - Eagle ) , I guess Garmins are good but I think the Lowrances are EASY to use and run.
I've been using their products for 20 some years and am satisfied with them.
:)
Robert
hitechman
12-25-2006, 10:34 AM
.......I guess Garmins are good but I think the Lowrances are EASY to use and run.
I've been using their products for 20 some years and am satisfied with them.
:)
Robert
I hear Lowrances are good, but I think the Garmins are easy to use and run. I've been using Garmin GPSr products for 10 years and have been satisfied with them.
I do own some Lowrance electronics (older "fish" finders) that work well--so well I haven't replaced them with the newer technology and probably wouldn't consider a different brand (maybe Garmin).
All 3 of the units you are considering are water resistant (water proof in the specs) and all 3 use a MicroSD card for maps (good things). None of these units float though--THEY ARE NOT CONSIDERED MARINE GPSr's UNITS, but can be used as such. The 2 Garmins use SiRF technology (more sensitive receiver, and I can tell you they are sensitive enough to grab a signal in places where the other units--of all brands including Garmin--will not), and I'm not sure about the Lowrance (it does not say it has that technology on the Lowrance website). BUT, and a big but, if you will be using your unit extensively over the water, I don't believe that sensitivity will make a difference. Be sure to check out the accessories (especially maps) that are available and their price--get ready to spend again what you spent on the GPS.
Seriously, I'm sure all the brands have their "ups and downs--goods and bads". When a person gets something they like and it is dependable, they tend to have brand loyality. It sounds like Lowrance MAY have more recent updates to their maps than does Garmin-----but I can't say as I do not own any Lowrance GPSr units (nor have I ever, for no particular reason--never seen one in use either).
YOU have to check out the units, in different brands, that fit your needs. Then listen to what others have to say and make an "informed" decision as which unit is best for you. Actually, you should find someone that owns these, and try it out.
In any case, the last person I would base my decision on would be the salesman (unless he/she actually owns and uses that particular unit).
Steve
gilly
12-25-2006, 01:37 PM
They all are very good products and ease of use and price should be deciding factors. Your best bet is to go to a store or two and have them show you the different models. One thing that really struck me with the H20 was being able to use the same chip in the boat which would apply if you had garmin on your boat and a garmin handheld. The backlight which is sorta like an indigo type watch and works great. Also, I felt the screen size was a little bigger on the H20 and my eyes aren't getting better with age. Good luck and I hope you find a deal....
I jumped head first into the gps market for the first time this year. I am not going to claim anywhere near the level of experience as the others here but I will tell you what little I have learned in the past 8 months. I have the Garmin 60csx and a Lowrance MT3000 map unit on my boat. I purchased Lake Map Pro for the large mapping unit on the boat and I love the program. It is great. The big surprise I had was that in my Cadillac area most of the forest service roads were marked and LABELED. For a lake program I was only expecting lake information. I was amazed at the details. This fall I purchased the Garmin 60 csx. The small roads and most of the forest service roads were on the map but unfortunately they are not labeled. Many of the small roads including lots of the county roads come up with "road" as a label. I am using topo since it came prepackaged with my unit. The thing is that topo covers the whole United States not just the Michigan area like the Lake Map Pro. I used my 60csx on my trip to Iowa and as Hitechman has stated about his units, I never lost the signal. I turned the unit off a couple of times and then turned it right back on and it aquired the signals even while driving. I am sure Garmin offers products that are as detailed as the lake pro but as has been stated, I am going to spend the money and get the Lake Map Pro for Garmin since I love the program. By the way, the program must be purchased seperately for the Garmin and the Lowarance. Totally different languages. Good luck. Rick
hitechman
12-25-2006, 03:50 PM
the Lowrance Lake Map Pro won't work on Garmin units (as stated above). I sure wish some kind of standard would be established where one had the choice of map brand to load on their GPS--maybe someday.
That's another MAJOR item to consider when purchasing a GPS--the MAPS that are available for that brand.
I have the Garmin TOPO maps for US and Canada, and that's just what they are--TOPO Maps. They were never meant to be road maps or lake maps. The topography of the land changes very slowly and some of the the topo maps (USGS) are nearly 100 years old. I think Garmin updates them (maybe every 5-10 years) with new roads/features as they become available, and for the most part they are very accurate. I have found some roads on the maps that no longer exist, and some newer roads that do not appear (US-131 expressway from Big Rapids north for example). It's nice I can use the topo maps for most roads and city streets though.
The great thing about the new MicroSD chips (removable memory) is that you can purchase them and download maps to them and switch cards when needed--the older units had LIMITED, permanent, physical memory, and new maps had to be downloaded as needed--of course that erased the maps stored in the unit. The other nice thing about the storage cards is that they can be moved from unit to unit (within the same brand), and I have found that I can use the 1gb cards (Garmin says 256kb), with no degradation in loading or screen speed.
As I said in a prior thread--I purchased the largest handheld unit with the biggest screen because of my failing eyes and rather large hands/fingers. I also made sure they are water proof (resistant) and FLOAT (that's another story!!!). My unit goes with me where ever I go: land, lake, hike, and driving. I purchased a dash and a boat holder to fit my GPSMap-76CSx.
I'm guessing I have as much $$ in maps, cases, holders, and cords as I do in the GPS unit itself.
RES--make sure you have the road naming selected on you 60CSx--you can set it to show names at and below certain zoom levels. Still, on the Garmin TOPO maps, some roads are just called "road". POI (points of interest) and expressway exit services come and go as well.
Steve
busybeaver
12-25-2006, 05:11 PM
I think Lake Master makes a program for Garmin now.
Steve, Never knew about the feature but had figured that using the topo map I would not get the most up to date road info. By the way, take a look at my post titled "Lake Master Pro goes Garmin. Garmin is listing on their site. I just saw it a couple of days ago. NO, the chips for Lowarance will NOT put the maps on a Garmin. You have to buy both chips if you own different units like I do. I am not at all upset with my 60 or the topo. It does a very nice job. I also agree with you, I like the removable chip for various maps. I did not really take into consideration the floating thing when I bought mine. When I duck hunt though I have it on a lanyard tucked in the front pocket of the waders so I can't loose it while setting dekes, etc. I will add the link to the Garmin listing of Lake Master. Rick
http://www.garmin.com/cartography/lakemaster/michigan.jsp
hitechman
12-25-2006, 06:32 PM
about the LakeMaster/Garmin thing, but the fact remains that Garmin developed these maps (as stated on Garmins website) and licensed LakeMaster to produce them--not sure about the Lowrance connection. Does anyone know if they are the SAME maps made compatable to Lowrance? If so, I can't believe Garmin allowed that, OR is this a step towards a universal map system for GPSr's?
I don't have any blue chart or lake maps loaded on my GPSr's--I spend 98% of my leisure time on the land--most of my fishing is in Ontario.
RES, I believe you'll find that setting under "map detail" in the 60CSx menu. I'd check it out for you, but my grandson has my 60CSx in the UP right now.
Ya, mine (my first Garmin eTrex) was on a lanyard around my neck while fishing in Canada some years back. The lanyard was still around my neck and my GPS was at the bottom of the great blue! Actually a pretty funny story on how that happened--maybe I'll post it sometime. I've actually had a GPS go into the drink 2 more times since then--waterproof and floating means I still got 'em.
Merry Christmas all:
I have to say thanks for all the information. I am kind of on my own on this as the only one I know has megellan. I only have a 14' boat so big water is not an option. To be used on Lake St Clair and Ice Fishing plus inland lakes. Hunting and going to try geocashing - Also involved with a scout troop with the boys for hiking. Gander store salesmen had 2 garmins (older etrex and I think a 60 series) but said if he was buying a first unit, woud consider the new H2OC with Lake map package. I like the screen size and its suppose to update quick with the 2 processors. I guess the lowrence units were considered slow. Battery life is lower than the Garmins. The Etrex line has the rebate - plus some Garmins float. (droped a digital camera in the black river this summer - did not float ) I have no software commited to anthing at this point so anything I do is fresh including learning how to use.
Dan
hitechman
12-25-2006, 08:19 PM
things I just dug up.
1) From Lake Masters web site:
About Us
Waypoint Technologies, Inc. is a privately owned company, located in Little Falls, MN. The company was established in 1992 as a leading edge Geographical Information Systems (GIS) software company, primarily focusing on real estate mapping. In 1999 our company focus turned to inland lake mapping in the United States. Our company goal is to develop the most accurate lake maps available on the market and make them available as high quality paper maps, PC computer software packages, or digitally for your favorite GPS unit.
Maps have been assisting mariners navigation for hundreds of years. They are an incredibly powerful tool when used properly, they are even more powerful when the information provided on them is accurate.
We realized at an early stage that there was a tremendous need for accurate lake maps. With the advancement of electronics i.e., Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and sonar, high definition, accurate lake maps seemed to be a natural progression for the angling industry. We are leading the fishing industry into the new world of precision angling.
So it looks like this company owns the maps and Garmin and Lowrance purchased the right to incorporate them into their mapping software.
2) The Lake Map website lists the lakes on the CD--It lists St. Clair, but on the Garmin Website it lists it as St. Clair (Antrim County). Can it be that Lake St. Clair is NOT included? RES, can you address this?
Steve
I was at the Lakemaster web site and they list St Clair River, Lake St Clair
and Detroit River as part of the covered lakes. When I was at the store I did get a look at the St Clair river and the detail is amazing. I did not see Lake St Clair listed at the garimin site.
Working this week but will be back at the stores trying to decide on the unit. Hopefully we will have ice after the 1st of the year and I would like to have a new GPS in hand.
Dan
hitechman
12-25-2006, 08:52 PM
Just went back to Lake Master Pro website--still didn't see them listed, but the ol' eyes are goin' fast. Just make sure that any Lake Mapping software has the Lakes that you want (before you buy it).
Steve
gilly
01-02-2007, 05:18 PM
OK you h20 pals...I just tried to move same saved trails from my handheld to my mapcreate software on my computer. I have several trails stored on the h20. I wanted to bring in a trail at a time and save the map in map create. It doesn't seems as if this is possible? When you select transfer my data on the h20 if gives you a default name "data" for the usr file. It doesn't let you pick a trail or route to save to the card and seems as if it saved all the trails I had to that data file. When I loaded it up all my trails were on the map in map create. Sorta a mess as I have several fishing trips on LSC and DR plus several road trips. Again, I wanted to seperate them all out so I could save them as individaul maps in mapcreate. What am I missing? Not sure why some trails are pink and others green on mapcreate? Any help appreciated...
sfw1960
01-02-2007, 08:28 PM
Sure is a LOT to read in them d@mn manuals nowadays??
HUH????
:rant:
I usually NEVER save trails , although I keep them on the unit until the next time out... I have a Navionics SD Card & it's does all I need - about all I can tell you is to backup and edit your data REGULARLY.
After all - your vehicle will still run when the oil's got 8,000 miles on it - but it's just a little bit "gunked up" - same with your personal data!
I know this doesn't help you AFTER the fact - but there's almost always a 'next time'....
:cool:
You may have an option of turning layers on and off in MapCreate , I dunno 'cuz I don't have it... My GPS functions are all for fEEsHiN' .
:)
Look for it. There's a lot there to see ..
Pg 33-34 of the mapcreate 6.2 PDF talk about "Trail List Window" so they can be seperated by name , I don't know if you can edit or delete them though... I hope that's a starting point.
;)
Robert
pescadero
01-03-2007, 12:08 PM
OK you h20 pals...I just tried to move same saved trails from my handheld to my mapcreate software on my computer. I have several trails stored on the h20. I wanted to bring in a trail at a time and save the map in map create. It doesn't seems as if this is possible? When you select transfer my data on the h20 if gives you a default name "data" for the usr file. It doesn't let you pick a trail or route to save to the card and seems as if it saved all the trails I had to that data file. When I loaded it up all my trails were on the map in map create. Sorta a mess as I have several fishing trips on LSC and DR plus several road trips. Again, I wanted to seperate them all out so I could save them as individaul maps in mapcreate. What am I missing? Not sure why some trails are pink and others green on mapcreate? Any help appreciated...
When you transfer data you will get ALL user data - every trail, waypoint, etc. Once the USR file is loaded into mapcreate you should be able to delete any trails you want.
--
lp
hitechman
01-03-2007, 12:36 PM
:yeahthat:
Download the data to the program on your computer. Delete all but one trail and do a "save as" (not save) then "undo" your deleted data and delete the next set. Do another "save as" and then "undo"--keep going until you are done. The "save as" function will make it so you do not have to download your data every time.
I have not used this particular software, but Garmin mapsource allows me to edit and save as a different document.
Steve
I am getting the h20C for my birthday this weekend. I just need to know which chip I need to get that is best for the southeast michigan area. I looked at the Navionics one and it seemed very nice, but I figured I'd ask in this discussion and see what you all suggest. I fish in the scr, lsc, and the DetR. Thank you in advance.
MDH
Should have my H2OC today. Ordered last week but with the holiday and then no mail yesterday I am still waiting. I went with the Michigan lake masterpro maps. Includes inland lakes plus the great lakes including
Detroit & St clair Rivers and Lake St Clair. I only saw the H2OC and maps at the store but I am hoping my choice was good. Looks like I may have to break it in geocaching vs ice fishing.
Dan
hitechman
01-03-2007, 03:11 PM
I am getting the h20C for my birthday this weekend. I just need to know which chip I need to get that is best for the southeast michigan area. I looked at the Navionics one and it seemed very nice, but I figured I'd ask in this discussion and see what you all suggest. I fish in the scr, lsc, and the DetR. Thank you in advance.
MDH
what you want to use it for. Fishing...you'll need lake maps. Hunting...you'll probably want topo maps. Driving and geocaching....you will probably want up to date road and city maps. All of the above....all of the above--or try to find a happy medium.
Steve
Steve
How was your road trip for the geocaching outing?
Dan
hitechman
01-03-2007, 11:53 PM
Steve
How was your road trip for the geocaching outing?
Dan
My 14 year old grandson (hitechteen), his mother (my daughter), Ali (my granddaughter), and I left the Alma area for the Kalamazoo area (via Lansing and Hastrings) at 9am on December 29. We loggerd a total of 440 miles (came home via Grand Rapids) and arrived home around 10pm.
We logged 3 earth caches (spent a lot of time at these--especially the Grand River Ledges in Grand Ledge), 1 virtual cache, and 13 traditional caches. Had to pass on 10 more because of time constraints, and there was one we couldn't find.
The weather was great (50 degrees and mostly sunny). I never wore a coat and was in sandals all day. I haven't been in these areas for 30 years.
We all had a ton of fun, and it was difficult for me to keep up with my grandson--he always tries to be first to locate a cache--but in his haste he overlooked many, and I got to them first (age is wisdom, and haste can be waste). He tries to make it competative, and I'm just out to see the sights.
Steve
PS--did you get your GPS today?
Got home from work tonight and I had a box setting by the back door. Stood out in the rain with my H20C and found myself. Loaded the lakemaster pro chip. I can see the entire state of michigan - zoom it in to my street (with name) down to my block (no address) . fliped over to lake st clair and detailed depths for the lake and detroit river did not check out lake erie. Got stoney creek lake in the metro park with detailed depths. Hamlin lake - summer camping / found the dirt road I take 5 miles in from hubbard lake to deer hunt, even the two creeks where my stand sets is on the map. Some of the access points I fish on black river & pigeon river up by vanderbuilt I found.
The lake master is not a street level (down to addresses) but I can see cities, blocks, streets, parks and all the lakes I was hoping for. got some reading to do but I give some geocaching a try this weekend - several caches less than a mile from my house.
I'll post more as I learn whats going on and will probably have questions!
Dan
sfw1960
01-04-2007, 09:13 PM
Remember the "old days" when you went off in the woods with a case of beer to "find yourself"??
:lol:
Enjoy your new machine and you're probably finding that for fishing , that LakeMaster is a darn good choice!
Have a great time learning all the finer points of that GPS... and do yourself a favor & buy the extended warranty - for the money ~ dollar per day - you CAN'T buy any better insurance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:D
Robert
As I recall there was some crown royal the we chased the beer with!!
Dan
sfw1960
01-04-2007, 10:19 PM
As I recall there was some crown royal the we chased the beer with!!
Dan
:lol: :lol:
Or was it Canadian Mist????
:dizzy: :dizzy:
2) The Lake Map website lists the lakes on the CD--It lists St. Clair, but on the Garmin Website it lists it as St. Clair (Antrim County). Can it be that Lake St. Clair is NOT included? RES, can you address this?
Steve
Steve, Sorry this took so long but I just got my power chord out of the boat. I have my unit hooked up to my battery in the livingroom!!!!!!!! :lol: I DO NOT have the Garmin version of Lakemasterpro but on my Lowrance version Lake St. Clair is included. Contour lines are about every 3'. The shipping lane is quite clear and even the dumping grounds are marked. (I have no idea what the dumping grounds is all about but it is called out on the map). I would imagine St. Clair is on the Garmin system as well but I can not verify for you. Hope this helps a bit. Rick
hitechman
01-06-2007, 04:29 PM
according to DanP it IS on the Lowrance version of the maps but NOT on the Garmin version.
res--with this weather my boat would be out on the lakes!!!
Steve
according to DanP it IS on the Lowrance version of the maps but NOT on the Garmin version.
res--with this weather my boat would be out on the lakes!!!
Steve
That is interesting. I have not bought the chip for my handheld Garmin and may look at other software. I like the lakemappro but I want to see it work in the Garmin first if I can. This weather is driving me nuts. I winterized the boat and since I don't have indoor storage yet (next year) it takes a bit of work to get it ready for winter besides stabil and fog. I should have unwrapped it and then it would have snowed to beat all and I could have been a hero to the ski resorts!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: Rick
hitechman
01-06-2007, 10:43 PM
was that one should not assume that because a detailed lake map is on one version that it will be on another. I'm guessing that Garmin left it off because they have it on other mapping software.
You are correct--make sure you get a good look at the maps and their contents, before you buy them.
DanP purchased the Lowrance H2O and the LakeMaster Pro maps--lake St Clair is on that version. See Garmins website for a list of DETAILED lakes on their version: http://www.garmin.com/cartography/lakemaster/michigan.jsp. There is also a link on this page that lists all 600 lakes with LESSER detail (and Lake St. Clair is not on it).
Garmins MapViewer (http://www.garmin.com/cartography/#) shows the contours on Hamlin Lake (on Michigan LakeMap Prov2), just north of Ludington, but does NOT show them on Lake St. Clair. This is a page where you can view all of their available maps as they would appear on your GPS.
Worked and did not get a chance to work with the new unit but hopefully tomorrow. Kids start a winter archery league so I am going to try and get some time after we get back.
Regarding Lake St Clair, some of the great lakes and garmin and lowrance. I had called Lakemaster direct and talked to them regarding their maps and the two manufactures. Garmin only looked at and purchased their inland lake program. I asked if the great lakes were in the works for garmin and he said no. Lowrance card has inland lakes, michigan, part of huron & erie, both detroit & st clair rivers and Lake st clair. Being I live in Mt Clemens, Lake st clair was an option I wanted and I went with the H2OC.
I am new to gps so who has the best map package I do not know. I have to say that based on what I have looked at so far it will do what I need both on land and in the water.
Dan
gilly
01-07-2007, 04:56 PM
I have mapcreate for my h20 which is great for land travel and has the bouys and navigational aids for LSC. I have heard a lot about the new Navionics 2007 Hot Spots card which is suppose to be great at $150. I wonder if the Lake Master Promaps are as current as this 2007 card as they went around and remapped many of the lakes as I understand and have many of them down to 1' contours.
Gilly - I see your in st. Clair - if you want to get a look at the lakemaster let me know. My dads in columbus twp so I at least make it half way to you once every two weeks.
I am not sure of age of maps - I was looking up north and they show state and federal forest lands on the maps. On the map pro a 200 acre parcel that was sold to the state approx 4 years still shows as private. But I think the last county book I had still showed the land as private also. As of this point I am very happy with my choice though.
I have been just playing around looking at the maps so for. Tonight I want to get some book time in with the unit. Has anyone worked with the training DVDs that are out there for the garmin and lowrance units and are they worth the money.
Dan
hitechman
01-07-2007, 08:17 PM
........ Tonight I want to get some book time in with the unit. Has anyone worked with the training DVDs that are out there for the garmin and lowrance units and are they worth the money.Dan
The training DVD's are usually less than $20 and helped me a lot on my first unit (Garmin GPS-72). They go fasttttttttttt and you better have your finger on the pause button or you won't be able to keep up. They (at least this one on the Garmin GPS-72) don't cover all aspects though, and some they only touch on briefly.
Steve
Hello and sorry for the delay in the Response. I just got my H20 C and it is sweet.
I will be using it primarily for fishing on The St. Clair River, Lake St. Clair, and The Detroit River. I also fish Orchard Lake, Ford Lake and Belleville. I basically want the one that is the best and most up-to-date version "Lake Map" card for this unit.
I was also wondering if you can also have a program for the roads and things like that on the unit at the same time as the "Lake Map" card? I am pretty new to the cards for these things. I have just used my dad's really old Eagle Gps. Thanks for your help!
MDH
Do you have the map pro card or have you seen it. There is a lot of information for roads and things on it. Its not a roads or topo but there is a lot there. I am new to GPS and this unit so I cant give much help.
For me right now the map pro card will do what I need for both roads and lakes. Its not turn by turn for roads but I have everything down here and two tracks that I go on up north that I can find.
Dan
I am interested in the Navionics card. It looks pretty detailed to me, and I have 200 dollars to spend on it. I just wonder which one I need to cover all of the lakes I listed above, (St. Clair, Lake St. Clair, Det River, etc) I also wonder if when you buy one of these cards, that it comes with the roads and 2 tracks and stuff. It sounds like the Map Pro has the lakes and the roads. That sounds like a great deal.
Thanks for the help!
MDH
hitechman
01-10-2007, 11:11 PM
handhelds (that I am aware of) have layers--in other words you can show 1 map at a time on the screen. That why I like the removable memory cards--pop one out and pop the other in.
Steve
Midway97
01-11-2007, 06:09 AM
I am interested in the Navionics card. It looks pretty detailed to me, and I have 200 dollars to spend on it. I just wonder which one I need to cover all of the lakes I listed above, (St. Clair, Lake St. Clair, Det River, etc) I also wonder if when you buy one of these cards, that it comes with the roads and 2 tracks and stuff. It sounds like the Map Pro has the lakes and the roads. That sounds like a great deal.
Thanks for the help!
MDH
http://www.navionics.com/Charts2.asp?ContinentID=5&RegionID=24&ChartSizeID=6&Classic=0&Gold=0&Platinum=1
I think your looking for the 901 card. I use the 900 for Lake Michigan on my H2Oc and so far it's worked very well. It seems to drop out the rivers after they go inland a ways, at least it dropped out the St. Joe after the bridges on I-94 but otherwise its very detailed. I got mine from the Fishdog guys, site sponsors.
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.