Attention Predator Hunters II

[croshair]

Greetings to those who hunt the hunters;

I have been successful in getting my local state represetative (D. Spade) to introduce a line of legislation to increase our effectivenss in pursuit of predators. Please contact your state representatives to incourage their support to allow predator hunting from elevated platforms and to allow .22 caliber CENTERFIRE rifes for night time hunting.

With the increase in coyote sightings throughout the state, I think this is a great time to seek some long awaited changes.

[Dave Lyons]

Good Luck croshair,

I know the guys in Maine really like hunting from a elevated platform and they do real well.

dave

[lwingwatcher]

Do you have the name of the House Bill so that we can refer to it?

Both measures make sense in my book but, I really like the idea of being able to use centerfire after sundown...

Question: Is a furharvesters going to be required to do so or will just a small game get ya by? It wouldn't hurt my feelings any it the license requirement was tacked on and it might raise a little revenue from those guys who just try and get by on their small game claiming that they are only hunting yotes.

[croshair]

Currently, there is no HB as we are looking to find co-sponsors and additional writers to diversify the probability of success. Currently we can hunt coyotes with the Small Game license. No Fur Harvesters license is required. We should aim at continuing this license without requiring a Fur Harvestors license. The previous agruements from the DNR is poaching. I have presented the view that the predator hunter is a purist who spends a great deal of money, time and effort to pursue an animal we can't eat. We are not likely to risk our purist status in the sport, our hunting rights, our high cost varmint rifles, ATV's, electronic calls, high end lights, to poach deer. Any idiot with a hand-me-down shotgun or cheap rifle can shoot a deer. It requires no skill, and no honor. Mr. Spade strongly agrees. Taslk to your state rep.

[lwingwatcher]

I agree wholeheartedly except for the part that I already mentioned...I just don't understand why a yote falls under small game and a fox requires a fur harvester license. I think they both should and it would seem to me to lend credence to the rest of your accurate assessment. Besides, maybe the powers to be would look at the situation a little more favorably if they thought that additional state revenue might be generated.

[Dave Lyons]

wing,

Not to hijack this topic I do beleive we should be able to shoot out of elevated platforms.

I have tried to push the no lic. requirement that there is current on the coyote and raccoon alike. Yes there is NO Lic. required on private land for raccoon and coyote that is doing or about to do damage. The NRC will not bite on this at all. The reason being is they don't want all the calls about coyotes or coonx doing damage. And as MR Gardner in a NRC Meeting has said if there is a coon or coyote on my land it is doing or about to do damage.

I don't get this at all. Any resident or NON resident has the right to kill coyotes and coons in MI without a lic. And these are the same people that CRY about not having enough money.

Dave

[Skinner 2]

The idea of hunting from a elevated platform is OK BUT I just don't see it as making that much of a differance. We hunt a lot of private property that is leased out to deer hunters. We hunt after deer season closes. There is no way Yellerdog and I will get or hang that many treestands. We find and use the funnels that the responding coyotes travel. Now if we can rig like Texas for a night hunt WHOOO HOOOOO!

The idea of the centerfire at night makes more since to me. You would get to hunt with a firearm that you know will effectively kill the coyote. This is the main reason I do most of my calling during day light hours. Only a trip or two at night right now. Now if we can rig like Texas for a night hunt WHOOO HOOOOO!

Elevated platform back of truck with spotlight and centerfire!

Skinner 2

[croshair]

It's great to see so many fellow hunters interested in this topic. Please let your State reps know what changes we (the voters) would like to see in the laws that govern our sport.

Bruce

[Dave Lyons]

croshair,

This has to be brought up to the wildlife committee within the NRC. I can ask that this be brought up at the next furbearer work group meeting. Once it gets pass the committee then it goes to the house and senate.

Dave

[Ugottaluvit]

In my opinion there are to many unethical hunters. Poaching is a real concern. Laws should remain the same. However, I do think the hunter orange for predators should be looked at.

[Skinner 2]

In my opinion there are to many unethical hunters. Poaching is a real concern. Laws should remain the same. However, I do think the hunter orange for predators should be looked at.

Poachers are going to poach no matter what rules are in effect. This is just an excuse. Heck guns could be outlawed and someone will still be out shooting deer with a gun.

The Judicial system need to be looked at and redone. Fines should be compounded to where it really impacts the poacher. Take the money from him and he will quit, If not lock the S.O B. up.

How many time have you heard where a guy went hunting or fishing even though his license had been revoked. Small fine an it gets revoked again DUH.

There was a guy who kept getting caught hunting in a closed area. The judge asked him why he kept returning. His reply will knock your socks off. He stated he hunted until he got a big buck. Then went on to say if he hunted the park 5 times a year got caught once or twice. The fines were way less than the fees to kill the same sized deer out west or at a ranch DUH should have fined him more right then and there (wish I saved that artical).

If a person poaches a deer charge them twice the amount it cost for a trophy hunt.Every thing the person used is confiscated and never returned. Pay 1/2 of that fee to anoyone who turns a complaint in where a conviction is handed down.

Instead of raising license fees monies could be collected this way to help enforce.

Think about it. A poached deer cost $5,000 or more. Gun/bow, hunting clothes, knife, truck, orv, all forfieted. If the fine cannot be paid then all free time is spent doing community service so the poacher has no time to hunt. Think this would make most quit????

Skinner 2

[lwingwatcher]

Yup, the courts need to hammer the violators that are apprehended and I mean hammer. It sucks that folks think that unreasonable restrictions should remain or be imposed because somebody might violate....oh my word, that is really unfair to law abiding hunters...

I guess I am somewhat confused about the political process. It has been said that pending legislation has been "introduced" so why didn't that Rep sponsor the bill? How does that work exactly?

[Dave Lyons]

wing,

How I guess I have seen it work. Is yes go ahead and talk with your rep. but it will have to go in front of the NRC wildlife committee and once it pass there then it goes to the the whole NRC for a vote and then once it pass there then it can e made law. And the DNR director has to sign off on this and then so does Jenny!!!!!!!!!!

From what I have seen there isn't a need for a house bill that is why we have the NRC if it doesn't get pass them then you can push for a bill. But I don't see why it won't get passed by the NRC. Law Enforcement does get to comment but I don't see where they would have anything against this at all. I don't see them passing a law like in Texas or anywhere out west. It already is unlawful to shoot out from a motored vehicle in MI.

Just going with my expereince with the NRC meeting I have been at and learning how this all works.

The big thing is to get it at the Furbearer Work Group meeting.

I am willing to help guys. Our MTA BOD meeting is Sun. and as long as the BOD approves it will be brought up at the Furbearers Work Group meeting!!!!

Dave

[croshair]

wing,

How I guess I have seen it work. Is yes go ahead and talk with your rep. but it will have to go in front of the NRC wildlife committee and once it pass there then it goes to the the whole NRC for a vote and then once it pass there then it can e made law. And the DNR director has to sign off on this and then so does Jenny!!!!!!!!!!

From what I have seen there isn't a need for a house bill that is why we have the NRC if it doesn't get pass them then you can push for a bill. But I don't see why it won't get passed by the NRC. Law Enforcement does get to comment but I don't see where they would have anything against this at all. I don't see them passing a law like in Texas or anywhere out west. It already is unlawful to shoot out from a motored vehicle in MI.

Just going with my expereince with the NRC meeting I have been at and learning how this all works.

The big thing is to get it at the Furbearer Work Group meeting.

I am willing to help guys. Our MTA BOD meeting is Sun. and as long as the BOD approves it will be brought up at the Furbearers Work Group meeting!!!!

Dave

Dave:
I welcome any assistance in getting this issue to the house and through the NRC. There is strength in numbers and we have the numbers in this state. I agree that we won't see the style of hunting allowed in the Western states, but, I do think we can get the changes needed to increase the effectiveness of the hours we invest in the woods. Thanks for your interest. Another source is to seek support from the Sportsmans Caucus. Mr. Spade is going to present the issues to his colleagues in Lansing to seek additional sponsors and co-writers.

Bruce

[Dave Lyons]

Bruce,

I just sent out an email to all the BOD members of MTA. I will let you know how this turns out from the MTA side.

Dave

[Skinner 2]

You guy's ROCK!

Skinner 2

[DROPTINE 14]

if you need petitions signed i have a lot of people that will sign or take one for there place of business

[croshair]

if you need petitions signed i have a lot of people that will sign or take one for there place of business

At this point, we need people to contact their respective state representatives to rally support and seek sponsors, co-sponsors, and supporters.

[BMoney]

If anyone is looking to quickly get a hold of the state rep from your district then simple click on the attached link and click on legislators from the list on the left of the page and then there will be links at the top of the page to contact your district representitive.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(kdx0co45e1ocse55edowoxuq)/mileg.aspx?page=Home

[Crowhunter]

A 22 mag is all you need to kill a coyote,tree stand not that much help ,just my 2 cents.

[croshair]

Yeh, I hear you ! A .22 LR will also kill a deer. It's been done countless times. BUT, we aren't talking about what the .22 mag will or won't do. We are talking about the calibers which were designed to have the greatest effectiveness to take a specific catagory of game with the highest effeciency and most humane kill.

Therefore, the .22 LR, .22 mag, .17 mach II, & .17 HMR are not the most desireable choice to effectively take coyotes.

Sorry to disagree, just stating the facts. The high power .22s (222, 223, 22-250, 204, 220 swift, .22 TTH etc . . ) are the best choice for our chosen game. I'm sure you could attempt to take an elephant with a slingshot, but I wouldn't recommend it.

When I pull the trigger, I want a clean, humane, efficient kill at any range.

[t_steinhauer444]

Very well said Croshair, I agree 100%

[brushwolf]

I've killed coyotes with rimfires and centerfires and i can say from experience that rimfires suck, unless the coyote is standing still. They work for hunting over bait, but even then you better be good. I killed a yote in february that took one in the chest and two in the head to kill it. That's unnecessary suffering for the animal and a waste of ammunition. The nightime hunting laws and the hunters orange laws need to be changed and the DNR needs to stop working off the assumption that we're all children and violators.

[Mich. Buck Wacker]

Very well said Croshair, I agree 100%

Ditto. :)

[croshair]

Still waiting to hear back from Dudley Spade on the legislative progress, but we have a substantial body of support for legislation designed to make each trip into the woods as effective as possible. The hunter orange law is a valid pursuit. Let your state reps know that you want them involved and supporting the cause.
I'm also involved in several CCW related legislative actions and we are making substantial progress. Keep writing your reps and telling them what you want and giving them well thought out ideas.

[croshair]

I recently received an e-mail from Dudley Spade (State Representative) regarding the progress of the proposed varmint/predator hunting law changes. The law changes are being held up in committee and need us to give it a much needed boost up the "hill". Please contact Tom Casperson, Chairman of the committee on Conservation, Forestry and Outdoor Recreation. It would be most helpful if we contacted Tom @ tomcasperson@house.mi.gov to let him know that it's time to act and not to sit. Please urge him to give the bill a hearing.
Also, please feel free to contact your state representative to let your voice be heard. Most of the suggested changes from the field have been for the better. We have alot of clout, nows the time to use it . . .

[lwingwatcher]

How soon is something likely to happen, before the fall elections or after?

I have a pro hunting but term limited Representative in the 93rd but...I would really like to see this progress seen through to completion.

[croshair]

Greetings to all who hunt the hunters: Well, the elections are over, by January 12th the committee chairmen will be appointed and ready to deal with the business at hand. I talked with Dudley Spade (District 57) recently and he has indicated his support for our issues. Now is the time to let your voices be heard and secure the support of a majority vote. Here are the issues we are seeking to change: 1. Eliminate the current caliber restrictions to allow centerfire rifles at night. 2. Eliminate the current requirement to wear hunter orange while hunting predators/varmints. 3. Permit the use of elevated platforms while predator/varmint hunting. We currently have alot of support for hunting issues and now is the time for change.
Please don't forget to continue to address the current push to substantially increase hunting license fees. We can not allow this to pass. It will have a substantially negative effect on our hunting heritage. Please use the power of the internet and let our legislators know what we, the hunters want.:)

[3mancubs]

Are you on crack? You want to shoot a high powered rifle,from an elevated stand,in the dark, at a target,while wearing camouflage?
I thought trapping was going to be a hard sell in the next elections. I'll vote for you but good luck.

[walleyeman2006]

correct me if im wrong but there is no rifle zone for predators that only applys for deer hunting.........at night hunting yotes the chance of your rifle bullete hitting a pedestrian is near 0.....the rifle shot gun zone is and has been set up for deer hunting..but at the same time the higher you are the more likely your shooting into the ground and thats allways safer

[Crawfish]

correct me if im wrong but there is no rifle zone for predators that only applys for deer hunting.........at night hunting yotes the chance of your rifle bullete hitting a pedestrian is near 0.....the rifle shot gun zone is and has been set up for deer hunting..but at the same time the higher you are the more likely your shooting into the ground and thats allways safer

You are correct, rifles are allowed for coyote hunting in all of Michigan during daylight hours.

Croshair is referring to the nighttime hunting rules that allow only shotguns with buckshot or rimfire rifles. Centerfire rifles are not allowed at night anywhere in the state.

[jsmith2232]

I second the use of centerfires at night and use of an elevated platform with the combination the bullet will be traveling groundward and with the few #'s of people in the woods at night it is alot safer then deer season with shotguns from the ground ever was as far as hunters orange at night if it's dark the human eye cant see orange anyway I support crosshair 100%

[elvis]

i also support crosshairs idea, my only thing would be the elevated stands at night, i hate to be nit picky but thats the biggest questionable thing, i climb my stand all the time in the dark whether it be morning or shooting light so i guess it doesnt matter but its pretty dangerous

but i do think it should be up to the hunter on where they want to sit and hunter orange is ridiculous at night cause you cant see anyways

[croshair]

You are correct, rifles are allowed for coyote hunting in all of Michigan during daylight hours.

Croshair is referring to the nighttime hunting rules that allow only shotguns with buckshot or rimfire rifles. Centerfire rifles are not allowed at night anywhere in the state.

Your almost right. Night time hunting is restricted to rimfire rifles or shotguns but, buckshot is NOT allowed.

[croshair]

Are you on crack? You want to shoot a high powered rifle,from an elevated stand,in the dark, at a target,while wearing camouflage?
I thought trapping was going to be a hard sell in the next elections. I'll vote for you but good luck.

Actually, NO ! Crack is for crackheads ! And being a 23 year Law Enforcement veteran and a crackhead just doesn't mix. But, if its your drug of choice . . . ? ? ?
These are all issues which have been previously disccussed (see ATTENTION PREDATOR HUNTERS previously posted), argued and determined by the majority of those who are able to string words into sentences to be well thought out, positive, and likely to be supported.
If you will think for a moment, the camo issue has been addressed and corrected for the archers, waterfowl hunters, and a vast array of other hunting disciplines. Additionally, most states who have active predator huning programs DO NOT require predator/varmint hunters to wear hunter orange. The caliber restriction has been an arguable issue for many years, but, has been argued to the point that it has more merit than demerits. The elevated platform issue has always been a hot topic because of the danger factor while climbing up and down. However, an elevated position is the SAFEST as it limits the trajectory to a very qiuck point of impact.
So, if smoking crack is your thing, whatever! I prefer to think and reason.

[Crawfish]

Your almost right. Night time hunting is restricted to rimfire rifles or shotguns but, buckshot is NOT allowed. Oops, you are right. I was thinking #4 buck was allowed, but only "shot" is allowed. I remember now how hard it was to find T or BB lead shotshells. :eek:

[yoopertoo]

Greetings to all who hunt the hunters: Well, the elections are over, by January 12th the committee chairmen will be appointed and ready to deal with the business at hand. I talked with Dudley Spade (District 57) recently and he has indicated his support for our issues. Now is the time to let your voices be heard and secure the support of a majority vote. Here are the issues we are seeking to change: 1. Eliminate the current caliber restrictions to allow centerfire rifles at night. 2. Eliminate the current requirement to wear hunter orange while hunting predators/varmints. 3. Permit the use of elevated platforms while predator/varmint hunting. We currently have alot of support for hunting issues and now is the time for change.
Please don't forget to continue to address the current push to substantially increase hunting license fees. We can not allow this to pass. It will have a substantially negative effect on our hunting heritage. Please use the power of the internet and let our legislators know what we, the hunters want.:)

Agreed on all points. I'll be sending a letter to my state reps.

[croshair]

Thanks to all of you for making this one of the most read posts on the forum. It's easy to see just how much influence we can muster. Since elections are over and our new state reps are in office and the ones who retained their office should be ready to get busy, it's time that we get busy ourselves.
Please contact your State Representatives to seek their support of our issues, including shooting down the proposed increase in license fees. I have started up a new thread under ATTENTION PREDATOR HUNTERS II. Hope to see you there.
croshair:)

[solohunter]

Are you on crack? You want to shoot a high powered rifle,from an elevated stand,in the dark, at a target,while wearing camouflage?
I thought trapping was going to be a hard sell in the next elections. I'll vote for you but good luck.

I am ex army and like the idea; :lol: ( no hunting near gas stations?? ):evilsmile and missing is waste fraud and abuse, but they made me give back my night vision gear:sad: will settle for red light,,

[croshair]

According to Dudley Spade, Joel Sheltrown (E-mail Address: joelsheltrown@house.mi.gov) has been appointed chairman of the committee on Tourism, Outdoor Recreation and Natural Resources. He is the contact person to present our predator hunting issues. Please e-mail him and let him know what we as Michigan predator hunter want changed.

[QuakrTrakr]

Hey Croshair! It passed in the house today! WOOHOO.

[croshair]

Persistence pays off. Next step. Continue to work on the Committee and the chairman to get the needed support for the change to the caliber restriction and removal of the hunter orange requirement.

Thanks to all who have taken an interest and supported the cause.:lol: :) :coolgleam

[QuakrTrakr]

Persistence pays off. Next step. Continue to work on the Committee and the chairman to get the needed support for the change to the caliber restriction and removal of the hunter orange requirement.

Thanks to all who have taken an interest and supported the cause.:lol: :) :coolgleam
It only passed in the House. The Senate can be more difficult. And then there's the Governor. I'll keep tabs and let everyone know when things are happening, but we need to contact our state Senators and let them know how we feel.

[QuakrTrakr]

Great news guys! We can hunt coyote and fox from an elevated blind as of NOW! The DNR adopted this new rule for 2007! http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_38954-150265--,00.html
"Hunting fox and coyotes from elevated platforms is permitted from one-half hour before sunrise to one-half hour after sunset." Next is nighttime, and centerfire rifles! WOW, we got a win out of this!

[tracker14]

Another fine reason to be in the woods:cool:

[dizzzyduck]

I was out hunting dogs today and found it a cold ... time but, I didn,t ever think of climbing a tree after a 1000 yard walk. None the less if thats your thing I think you should have the right, it's actually safer for the visibility of the target. If we could just adjust a few laws then a lot of the predator hunting problems could be solved.
1. elevated stands
2. hunter orange req. changed to all camo.
3. center fire 22 at night, who wants a crip.
4. fox and yote on small game, after all our money goes into Gov. general fund and only a small amount is given back. Fact, sorry.

[huronbay]

I have hunted in the State of Wyoming since my son went to work for the U.S. Forest Service a couple of years ago. Both my son and myself like to call for coyotes. When my son first moved to Wyoming, we asked the local game warden if a nores. needed a fur bearing license to call for coyotes and he just laughed and state "you don't need any license, take all you can carry".

The truth is, with the lack of interest in dry land trapping and the continued pressure on small game, there is no redeemable reason to protect coyotes. The old argument used by the DNR "if we legalize ................, poachers will use that as an excuse to hunt deer". That is not a valid argument. It has been legal to hunt raccoon with a .22 at night for years. How many times has this been used by a poacher as an excuse to carry a .22 to hunt deer at night? As a retired conservation officer, I can say that now and then it does happen. I had it happen to me about five/six times in 25 years. Each time it happened, I arrested the hunter. I never lost a case in court on this matter.

Any way you look at it, there is no reason to protect coyotes.

[croshair]

Well put, With the increasing popularity of varmint/predator hunting in Michigan (and around the nation) we (the legal/ethical hunters) need to use our influence to bring about change. Poaching will always be an issue. But not an issue among hunters, just poachers. There is a great deal of difference between the millions of hunters and the few poachers wich cause problems for hunters and help create an unrealistic view of true hunters. Sharing your background in Law Enforcement, I agree. We need to protect hunters not coyotes.


I have hunted in the State of Wyoming since my son went to work for the U.S. Forest Service a couple of years ago. Both my son and myself like to call for coyotes. When my son first moved to Wyoming, we asked the local game warden if a nores. needed a fur bearing license to call for coyotes and he just laughed and state "you don't need any license, take all you can carry".

The truth is, with the lack of interest in dry land trapping and the continued pressure on small game, there is no redeemable reason to protect coyotes. The old argument used by the DNR "if we legalize ................, poachers will use that as an excuse to hunt deer". That is not a valid argument. It has been legal to hunt raccoon with a .22 at night for years. How many times has this been used by a poacher as an excuse to carry a .22 to hunt deer at night? As a retired conservation officer, I can say that now and then it does happen. I had it happen to me about five/six times in 25 years. Each time it happened, I arrested the hunter. I never lost a case in court on this matter.

Any way you look at it, there is no reason to protect coyotes.

[manginmanito]

Poachers are going to poach no matter what rules are in effect. This is just an excuse. Heck guns could be outlawed and someone will still be out shooting deer with a gun.

The Judicial system need to be looked at and redone. Fines should be compounded to where it really impacts the poacher. Take the money from him and he will quit, If not lock the S.O B. up.

How many time have you heard where a guy went hunting or fishing even though his license had been revoked. Small fine an it gets revoked again DUH.

There was a guy who kept getting caught hunting in a closed area. The judge asked him why he kept returning. His reply will knock your socks off. He stated he hunted until he got a big buck. Then went on to say if he hunted the park 5 times a year got caught once or twice. The fines were way less than the fees to kill the same sized deer out west or at a ranch DUH should have fined him more right then and there (wish I saved that artical).

If a person poaches a deer charge them twice the amount it cost for a trophy hunt.Every thing the person used is confiscated and never returned. Pay 1/2 of that fee to anoyone who turns a complaint in where a conviction is handed down.

Instead of raising license fees monies could be collected this way to help enforce.

Think about it. A poached deer cost $5,000 or more. Gun/bow, hunting clothes, knife, truck, orv, all forfieted. If the fine cannot be paid then all free time is spent doing community service so the poacher has no time to hunt. Think this would make most quit????

Skinner 2
Skinner 2,
Wish you were in politics you make sense of course from what I have seen in my 59 years or at lteast the part that I remember paing ttention to if you re smart and make sense you are not likely to get anhy where n politices unless you can make the truth sound like a lie