Republicans for Granholm

[ih772]

I saw this link in another thread. I bet this position will really get a bunch of people in the party stirred up.

I wonder who they are....

http://republicansforgranholm.com/index2.php

[TrailFndr]

I saw this link in another thread. I bet this position will really get a bunch of people in the party stirred up.

I wonder who they are....

http://republicansforgranholm.com/index2.php

Intelligent people that look at the reality of things in this state, instead of the tired and failed party line!

[Stkbow]

If you think they are really republicans you may want to look again. Typical liberal blather. If yo look hard enough you I'm sure you will find a "Democrats for DeVoes site. If Granholm gets re-elected the people of this state are just plain stupid.

[jeb]

If you think they are really republicans you may want to look again. Typical liberal blather. If yo look hard enough you I'm sure you will find a "Democrats for DeVoes site. If Granholm gets re-elected the people of this state are just plain stupid.

Moma said stuped is as stubid dose. I said the same thing at the last presental election about the repblicans.

[Tracker83]

I wonder who they are....Democrats

[Sib]

I wonder who they are....

If you go to the contact page and check out the names you will find out that these are republicans that don't care for their party being steered toward the religious right. They're the type of republicans that want stem cell research and care about public schools, they seem like the type of republicans that ought to be on the ticket for Gov., but the ticket was up for the highest bidder and the party rolled over for DeVos. Too bad, I would have liked to vote republican this election, but I can't vote for an even worse choice than what has been in Lansing.

[Spanky]

BAM!!
Hit the nail right on the head there Sib! The Reps. had a perfect chance, just made another foolish choice!

[Kevin_D]

Its a shame that it has come to this, but which is the lessor of two evils? Lord help us! :help: :tdo12:

[MERGANZER]

A worse choice than Granholm:dizzy: cmon yeah i see where you are coming from Devos sure has ruined Grand Rapids huh? The guy has done wonderful things for the west sideof the state. He has built businesses, hospitals and created a ton of revenue for the west side while Jenny the Canuck has done jack #### for the state. She brags about 1,000 jobs cmon 1,000 jobs are you kidding me:yikes: We have lost over 80,000 and she brags on her 1,000 way to go Jen we are the worst state in the nation in terms of job loss, economy, unemployment hmmmmmmmm the Dow will most likely hit 12,000 before long why are we suffering so bad? Because of the idiot Dems who vote Granholm no matter what because their union told them to

Ganzer

[TSS Caddis]

Devos cut 25% of Amway's workforce and he calls himself a "job maker", so that number must be acceptable to him. Would having 25% unemployment in the state be acceptable? Let's not get the reasoning for the cuts wrong either, it was not that the company was not profitable, it was the poor Devos family was not making enough millions off of it.

Devos speaks of cutting management costs at the state. I was on a project for the state for 2 years while Granholm was in office. Let me say that they are as stingy right now as you can get, to the point that we almost lost 1million in federal grants because of all the spending controls. Nothing like having a project that if the state approves it the Feds will pay the whole bill and you have to fight to get it through because even though it is not state money, money is being spent.

Lot's of talk from Devos, no specifics. If he really wanted to be govoner because he cared about the residents of Mi, then he would have done his homework and came to the debates knowledgable about issues.

[Spanky]

:dizzy: :dizzy: :gaga: :dizzy: Merganzer Try to pay attention.

[MERGANZER]

I have been paying attention for 4 years have you? Oh yeah I am wrong jobs are through the roof right now and unemployment is at an all time low, the auto makers are not laying people off and eliminating job after job, businesses are thriving and nobody is looking to leave the state right is that the fantasy world I am supposed to pay attention to? Keep campaigning for Jenny but I must warn you that kool aid you drinking obviously kills brain cells

Ganzer

[Sib]

The guy has done wonderful things for the west sideof the state. He has built businesses, hospitals and created a ton of revenue for the west side..

Ganzer

Really, what businesses, hospitals and revenue has Dick DeVose created in West Michigan?

His company was incorporated outside of the US to avoid giving valuable revenue to the US and more importantly to Michigan. His Father made large philanthropical contributions that included a hospital/clinic, a civic auditorium, but what has Dick DeVos done as far as philanthropy? What his he personally given, we know what his daddy has given.

Here's a quote from Dick the so-called job maker:
""The benefits, long-term, will be significant as we emerge from this restructuring with a smaller, more-focused organization," DeVos said." - November 21, 1998
http://www.rickross.com/reference/amway/amway30.html

[MERGANZER]

There are trade restrictions with the Chinese in order to sell there you have to follow the rules and that is what he did is that what you are referring to? The city of grand rapids is a wonderful city have you been there? Largely because of Van Andels DeVos dollars that revitalized the area. That is what DeVos wants to do statewide so Flint Saginaw Detroit aren't all crapholes that they are now. He has been successful he has been a leader and he hasto be beter than Jenny. JENNY has accomplished nothing in 4 years while all other states are beginning to flourish and the stock markets is settting record almost daily. I am done now though you can't argue with libs who where blinders.

Ganzer

[Sib]

The city of grand rapids is a wonderful city have you been there? Largely because of Van Andels DeVos dollars that revitalized the area. That is what DeVos wants to do statewide so Flint Saginaw Detroit aren't all crapholes that they are now.
Ganzer

But we're not voting for Dick's daddy and Jay Van Andel, the only one running is Dick DeVos and all of those wonderful things in GR are not because of Dick DeVos, they're from the gifts of his parents and the Van Andel Family and Fred and Lena Meijer. All of their gifts have nothing to do with leadership and govt., they were gifts. How does Dick propose where these gifts will come from for Flint, Saginaw and Detroit?

The gifts from Dick's mommy and daddy, the Van Andel's and the Meijer family have nothing to do with Dick DeVos and isn't really a gubernatorial issue, because they were not given by him and these gifts are not the result of any function of govt.

Let see, my father was a Korean War vet does that make me a hero, too, even though I didn't serve? No, in the real world we are judged by our actions and we cannot claim the legacy of our parents because of their great deeds. My father served and he is the hero, I will be judged by my actions.

[WILDCATWICK]

I have been paying attention for 4 years have you? Oh yeah I am wrong jobs are through the roof right now and unemployment is at an all time low, the auto makers are not laying people off and eliminating job after job, businesses are thriving and nobody is looking to leave the state right is that the fantasy world I am supposed to pay attention to? Keep campaigning for Jenny but I must warn you that kool aid you drinking obviously kills brain cells

Ganzer

O.K. Ganzer. You have spewed out this line numerous times now and blame Jenny for it. I try to keep up but maybe I've missed some things. Seeing how you are the one stating this over and over maybe you can explain somethings to me that I don't understand.

1) How is the downsizing of the big 3 Jenny's fault?
2) How is it Jenny's fault that companies tied to the big three are having to close or downsize because of the Big 3 cut backs?
3) How come almost every major company in America (all the states) have had major downsizing periods thru the 90's and many are still having this? How is this her fault?
4) You have mentioned the blown away in 5 years statement by Jenny, can you please explain to me when she said and exactly what it was reffering to?

I don't beleive in the party system and wish everyone was independents. But as it's not I'm forced to vote for a Republican or a Democrat. I am this time leaning towards Democrat because I don't know Devos' plan for the state.

I can change my mind. Do your best.

Thanks in advance.

[northwesthunter]

I will NOT be voting for Granholm! She has done nothing for Michigan:rant:

[Munsterlndr]

1) How is the downsizing of the big 3 Jenny's fault?
2) How is it Jenny's fault that companies tied to the big three are having to close or downsize because of the Big 3 cut backs?
3) How come almost every major company in America (all the states) have had major downsizing periods thru the 90's and many are still having this? How is this her fault?
4) You have mentioned the blown away in 5 years statement by Jenny, can you please explain to me when she said and exactly what it was reffering to?


It's hard to lay the blame for the downsizing of the big three at Granholms feet. The seeds for their lack of competitiveness are rooted in labor contracts that the big 3 agreed to 20 years ago, when the profit horizon was unlimited. The blame lies equally at the feet of management, unions and workers who came to depend on six figure paychecks for what is little more than unskilled manual labor.

What Granholm has been unsuccessful in doing is changing the climate in the State to attract more diverse business to replace some of the jobs lost in the auto industry. She has had some limited success by offering substantial tax breaks for companies that relocate here, but she has done little to diminish the threat that the unions pose to relocating industries. Other states are being much more successful in this endeavor than Michigan is, why is that?

Now I'll admit that she can't do anything about her ties to the unions since they are the primary source of funding for the Democratic party but she still has to take some heat over the issue. The other thing that is apparent is that if she has to offer tax incentives to get new business to relocate here, what does that say about the impact that the tax burden has on existing companies that are struggling to survive in Michigan?

The "Blown Away" quote was made during her 2006 State of the State address and it is specifically referring to her economic plan. She said that in 5 years we would be blown away by the results of her economic plan. Granholm comes up with some innovative ideas that look great on paper but has not been able to implement most of them and obtain the desired results. When it comes down to it she is a "big government" democrat. Her solution to the economic crisis is for the government to spend large amounts of money to fix the problem. This has not worked and millions of dollars have been wasted in these efforts. A good example of one of her failed programs is her "cool cities" initiative. A better method is to cut taxes and let private enterprise spend the money investing in their own infrastructure.

Having said all of that, I remain pretty unimpressed with Devos. My guess is that if he is elected he will do little to help the state and will spend most of his time focusing on social issues that don't really amount to a hill of beans at the end of the day.

This year would have been a great year for a strong third party candidate to make a move. It's a sad state of affairs when we have to settle for choosing the lesser of two evils when electing our state executive.

[WILDCATWICK]

Wasn't she talking about two economic plans that were bi-partisian that she did not veto and signed thru? Meaning that both Dems & Republicans in the legislature & Granholm hold resposibility for?

Thanks for answering too, but I was really looking for a response from the Devos fanatic!:lol:

[fishin' fin]

I will NOT be voting for Granholm! She has done nothing for Michigan:rant:
She sure cut Englers pork for starters. Engler made somewhere along the line of 300 thousand a year, jet plane, motorcade, etc.( nice raises). Our canook makes what..170 thousand, drives herself, nothing to sneeze at for sure.
The ones I blame for Michigans decline is the big 3. I really wish we could stop buying American cars for a while, or charge some horrible tarriffs for operating out of country.
This thought is new in my head sooooo. :idea: Global economy= baldardash.:confused:

[Munsterlndr]

Wasn't she talking about two economic plans that were bi-partisian that she did not veto and signed thru? Meaning that both Dems & Republicans in the legislature & Granholm hold resposibility for?

Thanks for answering too, but I was really looking for a response from the Devos fanatic!:lol:

No she was talking about her economic plan for Michigan. Now, two components of that plan were passed by the Republican controlled legislature. One was a large tax cut and the other was a $2 billion dollar jobs initiative. The first was the quid pro quo for the second. These were just components of her overall plan, however, and the "blown away" quote was talking about her plan.

Here is the speech if you want to wade through the whole thing and see the quote in context. It's pretty clear what she is saying and her words are not being twisted out of context. Like I said, her plan looks impressive on paper but it has not worked. Big government spending is not the answer. For example she accelerated 10 years worth of state spending on road improvement projects into the first three years of her economic plan, injecting $3 billion dollars into the economy. The problem with this is that these jobs disappear when the projects are completed. Where does the money come from for road improvements for the remaining seven years of the ten year period? It's a band aid solution robbing peter to pay Paul.

http://www.michigan.gov/gov/0,1607,7-168-39899_39902-134956--,00.html

[MuskyDan]

Fishin' fin,

I don't know what part of the state you are from but you brought up not buying American cars. I think that statement is profound and this is why. I was brought up in Birch Run between Saginaw and Flint and my whole life at least as long as I can remember I heard people say things like you're not an American if you drive a foreign car!! Or if you buy foreign you'll put us out of work!!! My friends were brain washed by their fathers and mothers in fact there was a party hall that wouldn't allow you to park a foreign car in their parking lot and it was written right on the wall for everyone to see.

My point is this! It is not Jennifers' fault that Michigan sucks!!! My uncle was a regional VP for the UAW and he told me 20 years ago that by 2010 GM wouldn't even manufacture a car. Everyone new it was coming especially the people that worked there. You can only steal from the cookie jar so long before it runs out of cookies.

So I will be like the influences I had growing up! If you shop anywhere other than local mom and pop establishments you are anti-American!! If you buy a new car especially from the big three you are a communist!!! If you buy your gas from a gas station that isn't American owned you should eat a bullet!!! Keep our money here, stop the spread of globilization until it benefits all of us.

[MERGANZER]

Okay settle down I am not a DeVos fanatic first of all I assume you were referring to me there. Jenny has dropped the ball when approaching companies to replace some of the lost auto jobs by not contacting them when they were looking for a place to do business so they built in other states. The 5 years quote has been answered already and it is clear what she meant but she is wrong. She sure likes the single bus tax which hurts small business all through the state and those are the business's that create some good paying jobs with benefits. She brags about getting 1,000 jobs...... If you really think DeVos couldn't get more than 1,000 jobs then go ahead and vote the other way. She is not to blame for everything thats wrong I agree but she has really done very little to benefit this state. I have my own opinions on her besides the economy that conflict with whats important to me your views can be very different I don't like her saying she is a catholic but is pro choice, catholics don't kill babies. I am a hunter and I don't see those issues such as the dove bill being priority for her. I don't beleive in being taxed out of house and home either there is no reason the 800 richest families in MI should foot the bill for the rest of us simply because they were successful. I will vote for a change in November because I feel we need change and we need it to get better sooner rather than later DeVos has proven he can get results Jenny has had 4 years and has proven otherwise

Ganzer

[MuskyDan]

First of all you can be a Catholic and PRO CHOICE and still not kill babies!!!


Secondly I wans't refering to you I was ranting:rant: !!!


Lastly, the richest people in the state got rich off of the rest of the people in the state!! So should they foot the bill, maybe not but should they pay at least the same amount of taxes percentage wise and everyone else? Hell yes!!! I pay about twenty something percent of the 20,000 I make and the guy who makes 800,000 should pay the same twenty some percent.

[MERGANZER]

the richest 800 are paying over 20 percent Dan and I was not referring to you. You never called me a fanatic. Inheritance tax though:yikes: why tax a family because one of them died that is sick and wrong i f they tax me all my life and i happen to save some extra for my kids when i am gone why should the gov get a piece of that too. We are over taxed as it is

Ganzer

[MuskyDan]

I agree that we are over taxed but what you are implying is that the son of a rich man is intitled to an inheritance (which is income) without paying a tax. No way man! I, like many aren't blessed with having wealthy families and cannot count on an inheritance short of someone winning the lotto. With that said, yes I certainly feel that Devos's inheritance should fund a police task force!!! Because your dad was smart enough to become rich doesn't make you tax exempt, I don't get your logic. Your dad was taxed on the money that he made, when he dies you will make money and you should be taxed. You can't get something for nothing man and having the same DNA doesn't count.

[jeb]

If it is not over 2 mil you do not have to think about it.

[MERGANZER]

Tax the rich more is BS they already pay more all the time. Why punish success? There are so many that think this way it is unbeleiveable. I work and I put away money for retirement and I PAY TAXES ON THAT MONEY. That money has been taxed already so if I die, why shoule my kids pay again? It BS the state already taxed that money.

GANZER

[Munsterlndr]

Lastly, the richest people in the state got rich off of the rest of the people in the state!! So should they foot the bill, maybe not but should they pay at least the same amount of taxes percentage wise and everyone else? Hell yes!!! I pay about twenty something percent of the 20,000 I make and the guy who makes 800,000 should pay the same twenty some percent.

Wow! Class envy at it's finest! You think everyone should pay the same tax rate? I heartily agree. So which is it going to be, are you going to reduce my tax rate down to the 20% that you are paying or are you going to pony up and fork over almost 50% of the $20K that you are taking home?

The idea that the rich got rich off of the rest of the people in this state is laughable.

And your thoughts on inheritance tax, so I bust my butt working to accrue a large amount of money yet I don't have the right to dictate to whom I want to leave it? You say my kids are not entitled to it but you and the rest of the people in Michigan deserve it? Give me a break. That concept is called the redistribution of wealth from the haves to the have nots. One of the primary tenets of communism. Good luck winning lifes lottery comrade.

[fishin' fin]

I work and I put away money for retirement and I PAY TAXES ON THAT MONEY.

GANZER
If you are paying taxes on the money you put away for retirement then you are doing something wrong. IMHO
I'm not sure if it is offered anymore but you used to be able to invest 15 grand tax free in your Roth. Just chew'n the fat.:)

[MERGANZER]

Wow! Class envy at it's finest! You think everyone should pay the same tax rate? I heartily agree. So which is it going to be, are you going to reduce my tax rate down to the 20% that you are paying or are you going to pony up and fork over almost 50% of the $20K that you are taking home?

The idea that the rich got rich off of the rest of the people in this state is laughable.

And your thoughts on inheritance tax, so I bust my butt working to accrue a large amount of money yet I don't have the right to dictate to whom I want to leave it? You say my kids are not entitled to it but you and the rest of the people in Michigan deserve it? Give me a break. That concept is called the redistribution of wealth from the haves to the have nots. One of the primary tenets of communism. Good luck winning lifes lottery comrade.


You did a much better job stating MY feelings than i did:lol: . I am all for a flat tax rate for EVERYONE though. I hope to leave the kids something to help them out when I am gone maybe I should stuff it into a matress or something so the gov won't find it

Ganzer

[MuskyDan]

I didn't say that your kids weren't entitled, I said they need to pay taxes on the income. The money is not getting taxed twice, it is changing ownership and is therefore an income.

So you're in a higher tax bracket is that what you're saying?? I guess I get it and when all is said and done and right offs and all you're saying that you are paying 27 percent of your annual gross income. If that is the case than that is cool and I am an idiot for being misinformed and not doing the math myself and I apologize.

[TimT]

If you are paying taxes on the money you put away for retirement then you are doing something wrong. IMHO
I'm not sure if it is offered anymore but you used to be able to invest 15 grand tax free in your Roth. Just chew'n the fat.:)


Depending on your dependents:lol:, putting "taxed" income away might actually be smarter than "pre-taxed" income. The idea being that your tax rate today, with enough children, will be lower than when you retire. Of course, if you have employer matches tied into a pre-tax retirement fund, then you obviously have more incentive to go for it.

disclaimer
Do not make any retirement decisions based on some guy (TimT) on the internet.

[fishin' fin]

I apologize.
Don't concede just yet musky.
Social darwinism is alive and well........that does not mean it is correct.:16suspect

[Munsterlndr]

You did a much better job stating MY feelings than i did:lol: . I am all for a flat tax rate for EVERYONE though. I hope to leave the kids something to help them out when I am gone maybe I should stuff it into a matress or something so the gov won't find it

Ganzer

Adam -
You want to leave your kids something for when your gone? Invest in the best education that you can afford to give them. It's the gift that keeps on giving and one that the government can't tax them on. Teach them about compound interest and long term investing and the perils of paying interest on credit cards at a young age and you will position them to be smarter than 90% of their peers.

[Munsterlndr]

I didn't say that your kids weren't entitled, I said they need to pay taxes on the income. The money is not getting taxed twice, it is changing ownership and is therefore an income.

So you're in a higher tax bracket is that what you're saying?? I guess I get it and when all is said and done and right offs and all you're saying that you are paying 27 percent of your annual gross income. If that is the case than that is cool and I am an idiot for being misinformed and not doing the math myself and I apologize.

The problem with the inheritance tax is that it is often not money that is being passed down. If a piece of real estate has been in a family for several generations, it is a shame that it has to be sold to pay the inheritance tax. it should be able to be passed intact from one generation to the next. The same is true of other personal possessions such a jewelry or art works. If you have any significant amount of real estate, exceeding the tax limit is not that hard to do, especially in other parts of the country where property values are obscene.

27%? I'm in the 33% bracket for federal and when you add in state, local and FICA it's approaching 50%.

[WILDCATWICK]

No she was talking about her economic plan for Michigan. Now, two components of that plan were passed by the Republican controlled legislature. One was a large tax cut and the other was a $2 billion dollar jobs initiative. The first was the quid pro quo for the second. These were just components of her overall plan, however, and the "blown away" quote was talking about her plan.

Here is the speech if you want to wade through the whole thing and see the quote in context. It's pretty clear what she is saying and her words are not being twisted out of context. Like I said, her plan looks impressive on paper but it has not worked. Big government spending is not the answer. For example she accelerated 10 years worth of state spending on road improvement projects into the first three years of her economic plan, injecting $3 billion dollars into the economy. The problem with this is that these jobs disappear when the projects are completed. Where does the money come from for road improvements for the remaining seven years of the ten year period? It's a band aid solution robbing peter to pay Paul.

http://www.michigan.gov/gov/0,1607,7-168-39899_39902-134956--,00.html

Thanks. I've read the speach. My point being is that a Republican legislature agreed. They are as accountable. So are the Dems that agreed. It was a bi-partisian passed legislature. At the time the majority of politicians in this state agreed that this was the correct approach. We need to hold all accountable and the blame is not to be laid at the feet of one person.


I do have a question in regards to the road improvements getting bumped up. I don't know much about it but if the projects were bumped up why would they need additional funds latter? The work is now completed and won't need to be done in the near future??

Also wasn't it wise to do that with the Superbowl & all-star game comining in? Why wait until after? The money would be spent either way right? Wether it's now or then. At least now it should cost less than if they do it 5 years from now too.

[fishin' fin]

27%? I'm in the 33% bracket for federal and when you add in state, local and FICA it's approaching 50%.
The only thing that bugs me is that you would actually give the govt. 50%:lol: I think we ALL know better.:lol:
You are a multiple buisiness owner with many properties, which is the American dream. Excellent! There are so many legal ways to avoid paying 50% it's scary. Of course audits are scaryer.:SHOCKED:

It is interesting to note that the skills of entrepeneurialship is usually lost in the 3rd or 4th generation, unless ones children are actually shown where money comes from.
I can't think of a better hiding spot than realstate.

[Munsterlndr]

The only thing that bugs me is that you would actually give the govt. 50%:lol: I think we ALL know better.:lol:
You are a multiple buisiness owner with many properties, which is the American dream. Excellent! There are so many legal ways to avoid paying 50% it's scary. Of course audits are scaryer.:SHOCKED:

It is interesting to note that the skills of entrepeneurialship is usually lost in the 3rd or 4th generation, unless ones children are actually shown where money comes from.
I can't think of a better hiding spot than realstate.

So are you saying it's OK to tax successful people at a high rate because they probably are going to hide income anyway? Dodging taxes takes more time and effort than just paying them plus you can then sleep at night. Never been audited and never want to be and part of that is because I don't push the envelope. That is not to say that I don't take advantage of legitimate deductions but they have to be legitimate not a gray area.

I'd agree with your point about skills not being passed on, although I also know exceptions to that rule, as well. In my case, my parents provided me with the opportunity for an excellent education. I have not inherited anything from them as they are both still living. I started my companies on my own with a loan from a bank. For what it's worth I have no interest in having my children follow in my footsteps and inherit my companies. I'll send them to good colleges and then they can make their own way. I would like them to be able to hang on to my hunting property and enjoy it if they so choose, though.

[MERGANZER]

Adam -
You want to leave your kids something for when your gone? Invest in the best education that you can afford to give them. It's the gift that keeps on giving and one that the government can't tax them on. Teach them about compound interest and long term investing and the perils of paying interest on credit cards at a young age and you will position them to be smarter than 90% of their peers.

I gotcha you are correct on that one. My kids are currently in an excellent Catholic school where the teachers teach and push them to succeed. I agree on the credit cards education too many don't realize what they are getting into and then they have $10,000 or more in debt they will never pay off. If I ver get to the point where my health is failing etc I will put their names on accounts, gift them the legal limits and make sure that when I go they know where the safety deposit box and key are located. The government has no right to the money I pay taxes on and want to set aside for my kids

Ganzer

[fishin' fin]

So are you saying it's OK to tax successful people at a high rate
Here again I have first hand knowlege. Lets just say that a 3rd generation trust is worth 3 mil. annual div. say 80 grand or so. If that person uses that money for nothing but to live on then yes I do. If said person invests that money like everybody else has to than no, such as a buisiness, schooling, property, church etc...

I am of the thought that "to whom much is given, much is expected."

[MERGANZER]

Tax the gain on that money or the interest yes but not the money itself when a person dies that is insane. Yes you do have to tax the interest that comes from investments cause that is income as opossed to an inheritance. But this expect more from the rich is getting old. If you make 5 bucks an hour and you are taxed 10 percent then the guy who make 500 bucks an hour should be taxed 10 percent as well.

Ganzer

[fishin' fin]

Tax the gain on that money or the interest yes but not the money itself when a person dies that is insane. Yes you do have to tax the interest that comes from investments cause that is income as opossed to an inheritance. But this expect more from the rich is getting old. If you make 5 bucks an hour and you are taxed 10 percent then the guy who make 500 bucks an hour should be taxed 10 percent as well.

Ganzer
I agree. You just have to be a little more "creative" than the guy who makes 5 bucks thats all.

All in all (forgot the quote) Andrew carnegie I think...He who dies with the most money dies in shame. ( I didn't qote it cause I shoulda googled it):evil:

[MiketheElder]

I always wonder if the inheritance tax causes all these farms to be sold to developers. Great-grandfather starts a farm, his kids and grandkids expand the property and all have a stake in it. Nobody is getting rich but the families are able to live there and make a living. Then Grandpa dies and the son or daughter has to pay an inheritance tax on the property but they don't have the cash. According to some of you, they are rich because they have all this "wealth". Unfortunately the wealth must be converted to cash to pay the tax. More and more wild areas/agricultural areas become subdivisions. Yeah! stick it to those rich folks, they deserve what they get! They got rich on the backs of the little people.

How stupid.

Granholm sucks.

[Hi Ho Silver_Joe]

I always wonder if the inheritance tax causes all these farms to be sold to developers. Great-grandfather starts a farm, his kids and grandkids expand the property and all have a stake in it. Nobody is getting rich but the families are able to live there and make a living. Then Grandpa dies and the son or daughter has to pay an inheritance tax on the property but they don't have the cash. According to some of you, they are rich because they have all this "wealth". Unfortunately the wealth must be converted to cash to pay the tax. More and more wild areas/agricultural areas become subdivisions. Yeah! stick it to those rich folks, they deserve what they get! They got rich on the backs of the little people.

How stupid.

Granholm sucks.

Mike.... You're my hero!!! :yeahthat: :bowdown:

[tgafish]

I didn't say that your kids weren't entitled, I said they need to pay taxes on the income. The money is not getting taxed twice, it is changing ownership and is therefore an income.

So you're in a higher tax bracket is that what you're saying?? I guess I get it and when all is said and done and right offs and all you're saying that you are paying 27 percent of your annual gross income. If that is the case than that is cool and I am an idiot for being misinformed and not doing the math myself and I apologize.

apology accepted Dan:D

Please think about this also. What makes one persons money less taxable than anothers? Let's assume the bottom amount is $2M. According to your arguement the first $2M is income just like anything on top of that. So why not tax the first $2M? Why give a break on the first $18K that you can give to immediate family every year? It's still income according to your arguement. Money is money whether it's $10M or $1. I'm with whoever stated a flat tax.

[Munsterlndr]

I agree. You just have to be a little more "creative" than the guy who makes 5 bucks thats all.

All in all (forgot the quote) Andrew carnegie I think...He who dies with the most money dies in shame. ( I didn't qote it cause I shoulda googled it):evil:

And Carnegie is a great example of why the disposal of accumulated wealth should be left to the individual and not to the government. Carnegie endowed thousands of libraries across this country with his fortune. He gave the common man the greatest gift that he could, an opportunity to educate and better himself. Had his fortune been forfeited to the government it is doubtful that it would have yielded one tenth as great a good as it did through his philanthropic endeavors.

If you think that that kind of thing no longer exists take a look at how much money has been donated by Bill Gates and Warren Buffet to the Bill Gates foundation and what kind of impact that philanthropy is having on the world. Then contrast that with how well the federal government spent the last $100 billion in tax dollars that it collected.

That, in and of itself, is a pretty good argument against the death tax.

[MiketheElder]

Nope. A small flat income tax, say 7,8,9,10 percent along with a flat sales tax of 10%. If you make $100 you pay $10, period, no deductions. The flat sales tax catches at least a little bit of the underground economy when the money from hidden income gets spent.

Death Tax - gone!

[fishin' fin]

Mike.... You're my hero!!! :yeahthat: :bowdown:
Mine to...To bad he never heard of a living trust. :idea: Time machine on the fritz?:lol:

[MiketheElder]

Living Wills? Living Trusts? Joint Ownership?

Just a bunch of 'make-work' for educated parasites. Lawyers.

[Hi Ho Silver_Joe]

Living Wills? Living Trusts? Joint Ownership?

Just a bunch of 'make-work' for educated parasites. Lawyers.

I see we're back to talking about Granholm again. :D

[Kevin]

I am of the thought that "to whom much is given, much is expected."

Is that a quote from Spiderman? Maybe not.
Sounds familiar somehow... like:
"From each according to their ability, to each according to their need."

Saw what those guys were peddling, and I'm pretty sure I am not buying. ;)

[Bwana]

I'm not sure if it is offered anymore but you used to be able to invest 15 grand tax free in your Roth. Just chew'n the fat.:)

If your self-employed and only putting away $15,000 away Tax free, you are doing something wrong. ;) Check out the rules for keogh Plans and SEP IRA's. Be careful before you start a Keogh Plan though....read the details regarding the cash contribution portion! Then any left over beyond your Cash Cushion and retirement Savings, Real Estate. If you don't like Taxes, I am sure you will like Real Estate....memorize this question: Mr. Accountant sir, what is a 1031 likekind exchange?

Send me your address so I can forward the bill. :D

[Bwana]

I started my companies on my own with a loan from a bank.

You mean to say that you took risks and expect to be compensated for those risks?


For what it's worth I have no interest in having my children follow in my footsteps and inherit my companies. I'll send them to good colleges and then they can make their own way. I would like them to be able to hang on to my hunting property and enjoy it if they so choose, though.

This is a major misconception among non-owners. While I don't have any children yet, I fully agree. The odds are so stacked against Business Owners there is absouloutely no way I would ever push someone I love into this life. You have to want it to succeed. If I could control my kids destiny, I would encourage them to become Professionals such as Bankers; Attorneys; Doctors; Accounts; Marketers; etc. I would never encourage them to accept the types of risks I take unless they truely want build something.

[Bwana]

I didn't say that your kids weren't entitled, I said they need to pay taxes on the income. The money is not getting taxed twice, it is changing ownership and is therefore an income.

Its not Income so much as a gift? Should we all start claiming our christimas and Birthday Gifts as Income as well? I mean really, shouldn't everyone pull their fare share or should we only sock the wealthy?

[giver108]

Jenny the Canuck has done jack #### for the state. She brags about 1,000 jobs cmon 1,000 jobs are you kidding me:yikes: We have lost over 80,000 and she brags on her 1,000 way to go Jen we are the worst state in the nation in terms of job loss, economy, unemployment hmmmmmmmm the Dow will most likely hit 12,000 before long why are we suffering so bad? Because of the idiot Dems who vote Granholm no matter what because their union told them to

Ganzer

I'm not singling you out, Merganzer just using your quote.

Anyone who thinks Granholm had anything to do with Google bringing their 1,000 jobs to Ann Arbor is a flat out idiot. The only reason Google brought those jobs here is because one of the founders graduated from U-M, is loyal to the school, and knew there was a lot of intellectually talented people living in the Ann Arbor area. George Bush could be the governor and them jobs would have been placed here. To hear her tout these jobs as her success at recruiting high tech jobs to Michigan makes me want to puke. This was all told to me by a friend of mine who works at Google in CA as a corporate lawyer who is also a U-M undergrad and Harvard law grad.

[micaileana]

:rolleyes: :sad: :bloos: DEVOS IS A REAL SUCCESFULL BUSINESSMAN , INVESTOR, YES HE MADE MANY DECISIONS ABOUT HIS BUSINESS BUT HE CREATED MANY REAL JOBS , HE HELPED THOUSENDS OF PEOPLES TO HAVE BETTER LIVES, TO GET AWAY FROM GOVERMENT FOODSTAMS, PEOPLES LIKE HIM MAKE POSSIBLE TO CUT TAXES ON PROPERTY AND ON INCOME SO THAT MANY OF YOU BENEFITED BECOUSE OF HIS SKILL AND KNOWLEDGE HOW TO CREATE WHEALT{ MANY OF YOU INVESTED MONEY IN STOKS BONDS AND MUTUAL FUNDS AND NO ONE LIKE TO LOOSE THEYR INVESTMENTS} AND JOBS AND NOW HE IS NOT GOOD TO BE THE GOVERNOR , WHAT GRANHOLM { JENNY THE CANUCK} GAVE YOU BESIDE THE CANADIAN TRASH? O YA! JENNY THE CANUCK WILL BLOW YOU AWAY, O YA! HOW MANY JOBS FROM - GM; FORD; CRYSLER; DELPHI; AND MANY OTHER COMPANIES WE LOST UNDER HER great LEADERSHIP? AND YOU STILL WANT HER TO BE YOUR GOVERNOR FOR ANOTHER TERM, YOU DO NOT WANT TO GIVE A CHANCE TO SOMEONE ELSE ? WHO KNOW IT MAY BE BETTER FOR MICHIGAN AND YOUR FAMILY, I THINK WE MUST TRY, IF NOT , WE DESERVE WHAT WE HAVE, MOORE CANADIAN TRASH. SHE CREATED SO FAR NOTHIG BUT POLUTION AND UNEMPLOYMENT AND ALL OF YOU WHO VOTE FOR HER WILL HELP HER TO CUT OFF YOUR JOBS AND FILL YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD WHIT MOORE TRASH. WHAT DEBY STEBANOW OR CARL LEVIN, DID FOR YOU THAT THEY DESERVE TO BE REELECTED OVER AND OVER AS SENATORS, DONT YOU SEE HOW DIP IN THE HOLLE YOU ARE, WHAT IS WRONG WHIT YOU GUYS? WHEN YOU ARE GOING TO STAND UP FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILYES? THIS IS THE TIME , VOTE FOR YOU NOW AND NOT FOR OTERS, SEND THEM THE MESSAGE THAT THEY WORK FOR YOU AND NOT AROUND. STEND UP LIKE A MEN. ACT LIKE FREE AND BRAVE PEOPLES, DONT LET THEM TELL YOU WHAT IS GOOD FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILYES

[fishin' fin]

Is that a quote from Spiderman? Maybe not.
Sounds familiar somehow... like:
"From each according to their ability, to each according to their need."

Saw what those guys were peddling, and I'm pretty sure I am not buying. ;)
It could be if spiderman was quoting Luke 12:48.:)

[jeb]

[QUOTE][O YA! HOW MANY JOBS FROM - GM; FORD; CRYSLER; DELPHI; AND MANY OTHER COMPANIES WE LOST UNDER HER great LEADERSHIP?/QUOTE]
The Govenor dose not have say on what the companies above can or can not cut jobs so they can make a proffet. The companies them selfs are the ones that are not changing with the times and not saling there product. If she did want to do somthing the House and Senet would have stoped her. If it looked like it would have been put on the Nov. balet then they would pass something and hope it would go bad so they could blam her for it.

[Ranger Ray]

Forget the big three. Small business is vital to the Michigan economy more than ever. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out no small business no employees. This country has gotten to the point that people are so worried that the other is going to have more money than them that they will ruin the ability of someone to succeed in business. Problem is most times those same people depend on someone to provide a job for them. Michigan with its taxes, insurance, etc.. is not the friendliest place for small business. Until someone wakes up, people will keep leaving this state to find work and start their business. Socialism doesn't work! Look at all the countries that tried and look at the results. The only thing running this country and especially this state right now is people that have lots of money. Ask any home builder and most will tell you the only homes going are the 1/2 million and above homes. If you have lots of money you spend money and thats good because it keeps everyone working. Start taking away the right for people to make money and you will kill the economy. Look in the mirror Michigan because you are there.

[Sib]

:rolleyes: :sad: :bloos: DEVOS IS A REAL SUCCESFULL BUSINESSMAN , INVESTOR, YES HE MADE MANY DECISIONS ABOUT HIS BUSINESS BUT HE CREATED MANY REAL JOBS , HE HELPED THOUSENDS OF PEOPLES TO HAVE BETTER LIVES, TO GET AWAY FROM GOVERMENT FOODSTAMS, PEOPLES LIKE HIM MAKE POSSIBLE TO CUT TAXES ON PROPERTY AND ON INCOME SO THAT MANY OF YOU BENEFITED BECOUSE OF HIS SKILL AND KNOWLEDGE HOW TO CREATE WHEALT{ MANY OF YOU INVESTED MONEY IN STOKS BONDS AND MUTUAL FUNDS AND NO ONE LIKE TO LOOSE THEYR INVESTMENTS} AND JOBS AND NOW HE IS NOT GOOD TO BE THE GOVERNOR , WHAT GRANHOLM { JENNY THE CANUCK} GAVE YOU BESIDE THE CANADIAN TRASH? O YA! JENNY THE CANUCK WILL BLOW YOU AWAY, O YA! HOW MANY JOBS FROM - GM; FORD; CRYSLER; DELPHI; AND MANY OTHER COMPANIES WE LOST UNDER HER great LEADERSHIP? AND YOU STILL WANT HER TO BE YOUR GOVERNOR FOR ANOTHER TERM, YOU DO NOT WANT TO GIVE A CHANCE TO SOMEONE ELSE ? WHO KNOW IT MAY BE BETTER FOR MICHIGAN AND YOUR FAMILY, I THINK WE MUST TRY, IF NOT , WE DESERVE WHAT WE HAVE, MOORE CANADIAN TRASH. SHE CREATED SO FAR NOTHIG BUT POLUTION AND UNEMPLOYMENT AND ALL OF YOU WHO VOTE FOR HER WILL HELP HER TO CUT OFF YOUR JOBS AND FILL YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD WHIT MOORE TRASH. WHAT DEBY STEBANOW OR CARL LEVIN, DID FOR YOU THAT THEY DESERVE TO BE REELECTED OVER AND OVER AS SENATORS, DONT YOU SEE HOW DIP IN THE HOLLE YOU ARE, WHAT IS WRONG WHIT YOU GUYS? WHEN YOU ARE GOING TO STAND UP FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILYES? THIS IS THE TIME , VOTE FOR YOU NOW AND NOT FOR OTERS, SEND THEM THE MESSAGE THAT THEY WORK FOR YOU AND NOT AROUND. STEND UP LIKE A MEN. ACT LIKE FREE AND BRAVE PEOPLES, DONT LET THEM TELL YOU WHAT IS GOOD FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILYES


This reads like bad spam from a third world country, or a Phishing scam from Africa. You may have had a point but it got lost in the cap locks, grammar and spelling, not to mention your rather loose grasp of facts.

Perhaps it was by design?

[pescadero]

Its not Income so much as a gift? Should we all start claiming our christimas and Birthday Gifts as Income as well? I mean really, shouldn't everyone pull their fare share or should we only sock the wealthy?

Currently any gift which is over $11,000 dollars (actually any total of gifts from one person over $11,000 in a year ) and isn't:

Tuition or medical expenses
A gift from a spouse
A gift to a political organization
A gift to a qualified charity

is currently taxed at a rate of about 47%...

So if you get really expensive Christmas or birthday gifts (or below market rate or interest free loans from friends/family, or buy something at less than face value) - you may owe gift tax.

--
lp

[WILDCATWICK]

This reads like bad spam from a third world country, or a Phishing scam from Africa. You may have had a point but it got lost in the cap locks, grammar and spelling, not to mention your rather loose grasp of facts.

Perhaps it was by design?


I thought the same thing. It's only their 2nd post. I thought there was some new poolicy that didn't allow political posts until a certain quota of posts were established in other forums????? Or did that not go thru?

[WILDCATWICK]

Nevermind. It's 30 days to post. I thought it was 30 posts:idea:

[Bwana]

Currently any gift which is over $11,000 dollars (actually any total of gifts from one person over $11,000 in a year ) and isn't:

Tuition or medical expenses
A gift from a spouse
A gift to a political organization
A gift to a qualified charity

is currently taxed at a rate of about 47%...

So if you get really expensive Christmas or birthday gifts (or below market rate or interest free loans from friends/family, or buy something at less than face value) - you may owe gift tax.

--
lp

Thank you Pescedaro. I am aware of the Tax Law regarding Gifts, but you actually made the point I was tying to get across.

[Rudi's Dad]

His company was incorporated outside of the US to avoid giving valuable revenue to the US and more importantly to Michigan.


No way can I vote for a Governor that would do this. In my eyes that is just plain wrong. Unless that proves to be untrue, thats one candidate I aint ever voting for.

[TimT]

The Michigan Democratic Party is airing a disputed TV ad that claims DeVos incorporated Amway in Bermuda in 1993, possibly to avoid paying U.S. taxes. DeVos was Amway's president from 1992 to 2003.
Alticor, Amway's owner, says it moved Amway's Asian subsidiaries from Hong Kong to Bermuda because the environment was more politically stable in 1993. The company says no U.S. taxes were avoided.
DeVos campaign spokesman John Truscott said Tuesday the Asian subsidiaries were publicly traded when the move took place, but they reverted to private ownership and moved to Michigan in 2003.
Democratic Party Chairman Mark Brewer said he didn't have direct proof that the company avoided taxes but said that's why U.S. companies typically incorporate in Bermuda.


READ: Political smear campaign.

[Rudi's Dad]

I will be checking on that offshore thing, and FWIW this is the dirtiest campaign I have ever followed. Makes you want to vote for "None of the Above"

[TimT]

Dirty? Other than Jenny twitsting things like Bermuda, China and Alterra, nothing really stands out as being particularly dirty. Certainly, nothing like presidential elections.

[Sib]

No way can I vote for a Governor that would do this. In my eyes that is just plain wrong. Unless that proves to be untrue, thats one candidate I aint ever voting for.

Yeah, Amway Asia Pacific incorporated in Bermuda and the only reason companies incorporate there is for the tax shelter. If DeVos was so interested in incorporating in a stable environment why not the United States? Stability, what a joke. Anyway, here is the orginal document when Amway bought back it's stock and it starts with:

"New AAP Limited, a Bermuda corporation ("Purchaser"), hereby offers to
purchase all the outstanding shares of the Common Stock of Amway Asia Pacific Ltd., a Bermuda corporation..."
http://www.secinfo.com/dsVS7.691t.d.htm#jhf

Here's an interesting article on how Tyco saved 400 million in a year by avoiding US taxes and avoiding supporting US communities:
"A growing number of American companies have incorporated in Bermuda, which has no income tax, to lower their taxes sharply without giving up the benefits of doing business in the United States. And, yes, their stock can still be traded on the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE). How convenient!

Tyco says that being a Bermuda corporation saved it more than $400 million last year alone. The company is not required to conduct any meetings in Bermuda and does not even have an office there.

Becoming a Bermuda company is a paper transaction, as easy as securing a mail drop there and paying some fees, while keeping the working headquarters back in the United States...."
http://executivecaliber.ws/sys-tmpl/bermuda/

[pescadero]

I always wonder if the inheritance tax causes all these farms to be sold to developers. Great-grandfather starts a farm, his kids and grandkids expand the property and all have a stake in it. Nobody is getting rich but the families are able to live there and make a living. Then Grandpa dies and the son or daughter has to pay an inheritance tax on the property but they don't have the cash. According to some of you, they are rich because they have all this "wealth". Unfortunately the wealth must be converted to cash to pay the tax. More and more wild areas/agricultural areas become subdivisions. Yeah! stick it to those rich folks, they deserve what they get! They got rich on the backs of the little people.

How stupid.

Granholm sucks.

For inheritance that includes a family business or farm the cutoff for having to pay the inheritance tax is $10 million... and you only pay taxes on the value above $10 million. For normal inheritance the number is $2 million.

So on an $11 million dollar family business one would owe about $470,000 in inheritance taxes.

--
lp

[TimT]

To me, it's only sinister when it's an American company moving to Bermuda to avoid American taxes. When dealing with international trade and manufacturing as a foreign entity, it's not the same.

Your links provide a distinction between Tyco and Alticor. It was Amway's foreign company that moved to Bermuda, not Amway.

There's enough difference between the two to make your decision. No need for the melodrama.

[MERGANZER]

:rolleyes:

[Munsterlndr]

Yeah, Amway Asia Pacific incorporated in Bermuda and the only reason companies incorporate there is for the tax shelter. If DeVos was so interested in incorporating in a stable environment why not the United States? Stability, what a joke. Anyway, here is the orginal document when Amway bought back it's stock and it starts with:


I don't know what the motivation was in this case but there are a lot of other legitimate reasons to locate companies offshore, other than just avoiding taxes. Liability protection and regulatory issues are also reasons that companies are located offshore. Some of the regulatory laws that are on the books in the U.S. are just ridiculous. So it's jumping to a pretty big conclusion that companies are located offshore just to avoid taxes.

[Sib]

To me, it's only sinister when it's an American company moving to Bermuda to avoid American taxes. When dealing with international trade and manufacturing as a foreign entity, it's not the same.

Your links provide a distinction between Tyco and Alticor. It was Amway's foreign company that moved to Bermuda, not Amway.

There's enough difference between the two to make your decision. No need for the melodrama.

It's a wholly owned subsidiary and there's little doubt that it was incorporated in Bermuda for the tax shelter.

It becomes germane to the gubernatorial race because DeVos has tried to sell himself as a job maker and a business man that is concerned about Michigan. His track record is contrary to his claims, his decisions seem to be based about what is good for him and not what is good for citizens of the US and the people of Michigan.

Regardless of one's political persuasion, the facts remain that DeVos has reduced Michigan employment at the company he headed by substantial numbers and he has benefitted from having a division of his company incorporated in Bermuda.

There's no meladrama, I'm providing information that was asked for with the SEC filing link and also providing a background piece on the benefits of incorporating in Bermuda, since the claim from the DeVos camp seems to be that it might just be a coincidence that they incorporated in Bermuda, that they were just looking for a stable environment. Yah, sure, Bermuda and it's benefits are well known, I have a hard time believing DeVos didn't know.

I would have loved to voted republican this election, I so wanted to see Granholm gone, but I sure don't want anything worse and that's what a DeVos vote would be, imo. I've been highly critical of Granholm over the years, but she's better suited than DeVos, imo.

[Hi Ho Silver_Joe]

It's a wholly owned subsidiary and there's little doubt that it was incorporated in Bermuda for the tax shelter.

.

The Michigan Democratic Party is airing a disputed TV ad that claims DeVos incorporated Amway in Bermuda in 1993, possibly to avoid paying U.S. taxes. DeVos was Amway's president from 1992 to 2003.
Alticor, Amway's owner, says it moved Amway's Asian subsidiaries from Hong Kong to Bermuda because the environment was more politically stable in 1993. The company says no U.S. taxes were avoided.
DeVos campaign spokesman John Truscott said Tuesday the Asian subsidiaries were publicly traded when the move took place, but they reverted to private ownership and moved to Michigan in 2003.
Democratic Party Chairman Mark Brewer said he didn't have direct proof that the company avoided taxes but said that's why U.S. companies typically incorporate in Bermuda.

[Huntsman27]

Cool cities? Oh boy!!! Jenny Grandstand gets re-elected its just as someone posted earlier [too many blind leading the blind] similar to the Detroit debacle with Swami K....
Its truly come down to who will hurt me the least. Given the 2 dolts available...BOZO as a write in looks damned good.
Also, wonder if anyone can shed any light on Johnson [Devos`s running mate] and her ties to anti dove hunting bill work? Someone had said she was being hailed by the Humane Society as working against passage of the proposal?

[MiketheElder]

$470,000.00 in inheritance Taxes!!!!!!!!!!

A mere pittance. They should be able to pay that out of petty cash.

It's a stupid tax. I wonder if the family in my example has employees? I wonder how many would have to be laid off because of the stupid tax?

Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. And anybody who supports it.......................needs their head examined.

[pescadero]

$470,000.00 in inheritance Taxes!!!!!!!!!!

On an inheritance valued at $11 million.

--
lp

[MiketheElder]

It's not a cash inheritance of 11 million!!!!!

They have to sell part or all of it to pay the taxes. And if they don't the state takes it anyway.

It's stupid.

[pescadero]

It's not a cash inheritance of 11 million!!!!!

No, but I have a hard time believing an 11 million dollar business is completely unable to come up with whopping 4% of the business value to pay off taxes. I also have a hard time believing anyone wealthy enough to have a 10+ million dollar going concern was too stupid to avail themselves of trusts, yearly gift limits, etc.

It's stupid.

I'm not sure there is a tax you wouldn't ay that about.

--
lp

[Bwana]

No, but I have a hard time believing an 11 million dollar business is completely unable to come up with whopping 4% of the business value to pay off taxes.

There are various scenarios that could play out that would cause pains.


I also have a hard time believing anyone wealthy enough to have a 10+ million dollar going concern was too stupid to avail themselves of trusts, yearly gift limits, etc.


Don't make the mistake of assuming Business Owners are particularly savvy regarding financial matters because in many instances it is just not the case. As a young Banker I had a guy that had a book value (an Enterprize Value, or a sale price, would be a multiple of that) of well over twenty-five million in my office actually crying because he didn't have the liquidity to pay his upcoming mortgages and equipment loans. Because we had over thirty-five million loaned to him we extended him a Line of Credit, which he had refused several times, because he liked to pay cash.

My point, there are many ways for a "rich" company to be out of cash. And before you inform me that a company of that size should have had more professional management and better controls....don't bother, you'll just be preaching to the choir. :lol: By the way, this situation is actually pretty common.

[snakebit67]

The Michigan Democratic Party is airing a disputed TV ad that claims DeVos incorporated Amway in Bermuda in 1993, possibly to avoid paying U.S. taxes. DeVos was Amway's president from 1992 to 2003.
Alticor, Amway's owner, says it moved Amway's Asian subsidiaries from Hong Kong to Bermuda because the environment was more politically stable in 1993. The company says no U.S. taxes were avoided.
DeVos campaign spokesman John Truscott said Tuesday the Asian subsidiaries were publicly traded when the move took place, but they reverted to private ownership and moved to Michigan in 2003.
Democratic Party Chairman Mark Brewer said he didn't have direct proof that the company avoided taxes but said that's why U.S. companies typically incorporate in Bermuda.



They snuck the word PERHAPS in there. "Dick devos incorporated in bermuda, PERHAPS to avoid taxes" ............something to that effect.


Truth is he did nothing illegal. Or even immoral. Just being a good businessman

[micaileana]

LET NOT FORGET THE BIG THREE, WHEN THEY ARE GONE SO ARE THE SMALL BUSINESS ,THAT MEANS THE JOBS FOR PEOPLES. ONE BIG BUSINESS SUPORT 10-20-30 OR MOORE SMALL ONES. IF YOU VOTE FOR GRANHOLM YOU VOTE FOR YOUR OWN FAMILY DESTRUCTION .:sad: :confused:

[pescadero]

There are various scenarios that could play out that would cause pains.



Don't make the mistake of assuming Business Owners are particularly savvy regarding financial matters because in many instances it is just not the case. As a young Banker I had a guy that had a book value (an Enterprize Value, or a sale price, would be a multiple of that) of well over twenty-five million in my office actually crying because he didn't have the liquidity to pay his upcoming mortgages and equipment loans. Because we had over thirty-five million loaned to him we extended him a Line of Credit, which he had refused several times, because he liked to pay cash.

My point, there are many ways for a "rich" company to be out of cash. And before you inform me that a company of that size should have had more professional management and better controls....don't bother, you'll just be preaching to the choir. :lol: By the way, this situation is actually pretty common.

In those situations they are just paying the price for their stupidity.

--
lp

[NEMichsportsman]

Intelligent people that look at the reality of things in this state, instead of the tired and failed party line!


I agree:http://www.devosforgovernor.com//Media/Topimages/DD_bck_hDems.jpg http://www.devosforgovernor.com/Coalitions/?ID=12


Sorry Lee couldnt resist!!!:lol:

[tgafish]

For inheritance that includes a family business or farm the cutoff for having to pay the inheritance tax is $10 million... and you only pay taxes on the value above $10 million. For normal inheritance the number is $2 million.

So on an $11 million dollar family business one would owe about $470,000 in inheritance taxes.

--
lp

Can you tell me where you found this figure? Not questioning the validity. I'd just like to be more informed on this. Thanks

[tgafish]

Sib I'm with you on this one and have been grasping at straws for reasons to vote for him. I couldn't stand the debates and he has been very poor at getting out specific info.

Here's one of the reasons why I came up with. Obviously there has been some learning on his part as to how to make a business run better if he's making these decisions. i.e. moving something to save on taxes. Well I don't blame any business man for giving the market what it wants. Quality products at low prices with a good return on investment for investors.

What I can't stomach is no one can come up with a reason for companies to come to Michigan right now. If we could come up with reasons why Michigan is a better choice then businesses would flock here. I want a Gov. who can put that in place and make it work. I think Dick has a better chance than Jenny at turning Michigan into a place businesses want to come to.

It's a wholly owned subsidiary and there's little doubt that it was incorporated in Bermuda for the tax shelter.

It becomes germane to the gubernatorial race because DeVos has tried to sell himself as a job maker and a business man that is concerned about Michigan. His track record is contrary to his claims, his decisions seem to be based about what is good for him and not what is good for citizens of the US and the people of Michigan.

Regardless of one's political persuasion, the facts remain that DeVos has reduced Michigan employment at the company he headed by substantial numbers and he has benefitted from having a division of his company incorporated in Bermuda.

There's no meladrama, I'm providing information that was asked for with the SEC filing link and also providing a background piece on the benefits of incorporating in Bermuda, since the claim from the DeVos camp seems to be that it might just be a coincidence that they incorporated in Bermuda, that they were just looking for a stable environment. Yah, sure, Bermuda and it's benefits are well known, I have a hard time believing DeVos didn't know.

I would have loved to voted republican this election, I so wanted to see Granholm gone, but I sure don't want anything worse and that's what a DeVos vote would be, imo. I've been highly critical of Granholm over the years, but she's better suited than DeVos, imo.

[pescadero]

Can you tell me where you found this figure? Not questioning the validity. I'd just like to be more informed on this. Thanks

Go to the IRS website and look at the tax code on estates.

--
lp

[SteveS]

I would have to say that the inheritance tax is one of the "stupider" taxes based on why it was passed in the first place. It, like some other taxes, is social engineering. A gas tax that is used to fund roads makes sense on some level, in that the people that are using the roads are helping fund their maintanence.

If you look at the history of the inheritance tax and the debate that surrounded it, you will find that its primary purpose was not to generate revenue (though it obviously did). It was enacted to prevent people from passing on large amounts of money to other people that did nothing to earn it, as this was offensive to many of the people at this time.

[pescadero]

I would have to say that the inheritance tax is one of the "stupider" taxes based on why it was passed in the first place. It, like some other taxes, is social engineering.

All taxes are based on social engineering in some aspect - otherwise they'd be called "user fees" and not taxes...

A gas tax that is used to fund roads makes sense on some level, in that the people that are using the roads are helping fund their maintanence.

Except that ignores the massive differences between the amount of fuel used and the amount of road damage caused. It also comes nowhere near actually funding road maintenance and repair.

If you look at the history of the inheritance tax and the debate that surrounded it, you will find that its primary purpose was not to generate revenue (though it obviously did). It was enacted to prevent people from passing on large amounts of money to other people that did nothing to earn it, as this was offensive to many of the people at this time.

The point of this tax, and every progressive tax, is to some extent wealth re-distribution... just as is almost every tax cut.

--
lp

[SteveS]

All taxes are based on social engineering in some aspect - otherwise they'd be called "user fees" and not taxes...

The point of this tax, and every progressive tax, is to some extent wealth re-distribution... just as is almost every tax cut.

--
lp

I somehow knew that you would pen a reply. Some taxes have more of social engineering component than others. High taxes on cigarettes and alcohol, for instance. While the generate revenue and redistribute wealth, the legislature is hoping to discourage use of these products. An inheritance tax certainly encourages setting up a charitable trust or some other charitable donation, as opposed to passing it onto heirs. Congress was clear on this when it was originally passed.

[Scorpious]

Frankly I do not like either candidate and I will most likely be voting for Gregory Creswell the Libertarian candidate. Jenny has not done anything inspiring and DeVos just appears to have purchased the candidacy on the backs of the religious christian right.

However I will say this.

DeVos is against any type of stem cell research, embryonic or adult (based on his christian beliefs).

DeVos is pro-life (This is a show stopper in my book. The religious right needs to stop pushing their christian beliefs and realize that there are people in this country of other religions or of no religion who do not believe in anything that was written in the christian bible).

DeVos is for teaching "Intelligent Design" (read thinly veiled attempt at teaching creationism (of course only the christian version)...again a show stopper for me) in public schools.

DeVos is against gay marriage or civil unions (I really don't care what gay people do but this is purely a religious/homophobic issue being pushed by the religious right).


Granholm is for stem cell research.
Granholm is pro choice.
Granholm does not want to mingle religion in schools.
Granholm is for gay civil unions.


It would be nice to see a Republican candidate anywhere that can leave their bible at home. It is sad to see that the religious right have hijacked this political party and taken it to extremes.

[pescadero]

I somehow knew that you would pen a reply. Some taxes have more of social engineering component than others.

Certainly true - but all taxation is naught but a method of wealth distribution.

High taxes on cigarettes and alcohol, for instance. While the generate revenue and redistribute wealth, the legislature is hoping to discourage use of these products. An inheritance tax certainly encourages setting up a charitable trust or some other charitable donation, as opposed to passing it onto heirs. Congress was clear on this when it was originally passed.

Whether it be to encourage particular behaviors (see Mortgage interest deduction, deductions for dependents, student loan deductions, etc.), discourage certain behaviors (see Cigarette and alcohol taxes, etc.), or just re-distribute wealth - all taxes are at their heart wealth re-distribution schemes.

I like my tax scheme:

10% Flat Tax on all income over the 1.5x the poverty level.
No deductions. For anything.
Applies to everyone, including corporations/partnerships/other businesses.

--
lp

[SteveS]

I like my tax scheme:

10% Flat Tax on all income over the 1.5x the poverty level.
No deductions. For anything.
Applies to everyone, including corporations/partnerships/other businesses.

--
lp

I like your tax scheme, too (see, we can agree on something). IIRC, Steve Forbes also pushed a flat tax when he was pushing himself as a presidential candidate.

[SteveS]

However I will say this.

DeVos is against any type of stem cell research, embryonic or adult (based on his christian beliefs).

DeVos is pro-life (This is a show stopper in my book. The religious right needs to stop pushing their christian beliefs and realize that there are people in this country of other religions or of no religion who do not believe in anything that was written in the christian bible).

DeVos is for teaching "Intelligent Design" (read thinly veiled attempt at teaching creationism (of course only the christian version)...again a show stopper for me) in public schools.

DeVos is against gay marriage or civil unions (I really don't care what gay people do but this is purely a religious/homophobic issue being pushed by the religious right).


Granholm is for stem cell research.
Granholm is pro choice.
Granholm does not want to mingle religion in schools.
Granholm is for gay civil unions.


It would be nice to see a Republican candidate anywhere that can leave their bible at home. It is sad to see that the religious right have hijacked this political party and taken it to extremes.

FWIW, I think that republicans suck up to religious people and then don't really do much for them. OTOH, democrats completely ignore them, which is kind of stupid, seeing that they represent a significan portion of the population (whether you like them or not).

As to the iddues that you mention, it doesn't sound like you have ever really talked to people that support Devos' position. You are assuming that the only opposition to abortion, stem cell research, and gay marriage is from the RR. There are plenty of relgious pro-choice people and plenty of non-religious pro-lifers. In regards to intelligent design, I think you are right. I haven't heard any non-religious people pushing this and I have heard plenty of religious people that don't think it should be taught in public schools.

[Kevin]

As to the iddues that you mention...(snip) ...You are assuming that the only opposition to abortion, stem cell research, and gay marriage is from the RR. There are plenty of relgious pro-choice people and plenty of non-religious pro-lifers. I agree. As well as religious people whose opposition to abortion, or their opposition to courts deciding that government must regard all consenting adult relationships equally, is not tied to their religious beliefs.

[Scorpious]

FWIW, I think that republicans suck up to religious people and then don't really do much for them. OTOH, democrats completely ignore them, which is kind of stupid, seeing that they represent a significan portion of the population (whether you like them or not).

As to the iddues that you mention, it doesn't sound like you have ever really talked to people that support Devos' position. You are assuming that the only opposition to abortion, stem cell research, and gay marriage is from the RR. There are plenty of relgious pro-choice people and plenty of non-religious pro-lifers. In regards to intelligent design, I think you are right. I haven't heard any non-religious people pushing this and I have heard plenty of religious people that don't think it should be taught in public schools.

What the American public seems to have forgotten over the last 200+ years is that they left Europe because of legal madates/laws based on a specific religions belief (catholicism). This country was founded on the idea that religion (or any kind) should not be the basis for government so that we could all be free to persue any or no religion. Another interesting fact is that a number of our country's founding fathers were in fact not christians but rather deists.

I do understand that there are plenty of people that are not basing their oppotition or abortion, stem cell research or civil unions directly on their reigious beliefs, however the RR seem to be the driving factor behind these movements. In particular DeVos appears to be basing his motives on his religion. However I would also ask those that claim to not base their opposition to the above issues on their religious beliefs to look more deeply at why they oppose them. In most cases I believe that you will find that although your pastor, priest, rabbi, etc.. may not have specifically made statements against them, the moral underpinnings of that religion have clearly had an influence on them. There is nothing inherent to human beings that would make them want to oppose these things. Stem Cell research didn't exist as we have evolved. There are plenty of examples of animals that exhibit homosexuality in fact there are plenty of examples of human societies that approved of homosexual behavior and what equates to marrige. There are examples of animals that eat their young before and after they are born and if they had the ability to abort I would assume that they would.

I would have to disagree that the Republican party hasn't done anything for the RR. Bush has stacked the supereme court with conservatives and then Republican states immediately started trying to bring Roe v Wade to the supreme court to get it over turned. In addition Bush publically stated in a State of the Union address that there are three major religions (Christianity, Islam and Judiisum) which is clearly misleading and wrong as well as govermental acknowledgement of only some religions and then said it was going to give billions of taxpayer dollars to them for "religious research" (whatever that means). He also put a pot of money towards essentially religious soup kitchens. While the notion of soup kitchens is fine, there were already publically funded sources of food and shelter for people of need that would did not involve what equates to state sponsored religious organizations. Bush has also tried to force an ammendment to the constitution that would ban gay marrige and civil unoins. That seems like fairly significant progress for the RR to me.

[pescadero]

I like your tax scheme, too (see, we can agree on something). IIRC, Steve Forbes also pushed a flat tax when he was pushing himself as a presidential candidate.

No he didn't - that was his scheme for individuals. It is my scheme for EVERYONE - individuals and businesses.

--
lp

[TimT]

Steve and Pesc, do either of you have any idea how much less or more the fed would gather based on a flat tax of 10 or 15 percent? Considering how much tax is paid by the highest 10 percent of wage earners, I'd hardly think 10% would cover it. Pescadero, I know you think the welfare system is economically necessary. How much more would be collected for welfare to offset the loss of the EIC?

Flat tax sounds nice, but if there were ever a tax to benefit the rich, it'd be a flat tax.

[pescadero]

Steve and Pesc, do either of you have any idea how much less or more the fed would gather based on a flat tax of 10 or 15 percent? Considering how much tax is paid by the highest 10 percent of wage earners, I'd hardly think 10% would cover it.

If applied to everyone, it would. Business would be taxed like individuals. 10% of income not profit - just like you and I - and no deductions.

Pescadero, I know you think the welfare system is economically necessary.

No. I think the benefits of the welfare system outweigh the costs.


How much more would be collected for welfare to offset the loss of the EIC?

The EITC costs about $36 billion a year, which is about 1% of our current budget. Estimates are that corporate tax shelters cost the feds 3-5x that amount per year.

Flat tax sounds nice, but if there were ever a tax to benefit the rich, it'd be a flat tax.

Not with no deductions other than a single deduction equal to 1.5x the poverty rate.

--
lp

[TimT]

Business would be taxed like individuals. 10% of income not profit - just like you and I - and no deductions.

That just makes no sense to me. How in the world are you supposed to tax a business on income alone? Ah, well. I suppose it's for another thread anyhow. I'd be willing to bet lunch at your favorite spot that the numbers just aren't there.

[Hamilton Reef]

Bob Gwizdz,
"Natural Resources Commission chairman Keith Charters, a lifelong Republican who has served on the policy board since his buddy Engler put him there a decade ago, has endorsed Granhom, saying she'd be better for natural resources. That's high praise from an unusual corner."

[MiketheElder]

B.S. The only thing Jenny sees is the dollars that come out of licenses. She doesn't care about hunting and fishing rights, she's just looking at the money. She can talk a good game but her bottom line is taxes and fees.

[pescadero]

That just makes no sense to me. How in the world are you supposed to tax a business on income alone? Ah, well. I suppose it's for another thread anyhow. I'd be willing to bet lunch at your favorite spot that the numbers just aren't there.

How in the world are you supposed to tax individulas on income alone?

--
lp

[TimT]

How in the world are you supposed to tax individulas on income alone?

--
lp

By their W-2's?

[pescadero]

By their W-2's?

Ha..

The mechanics of taxing businesses by income instead of profits are no more difficult than those of taxing individuals by income instead of profits. The morals?

--
lp

[TimT]

Ha..

The mechanics of taxing businesses by income instead of profits are no more difficult than those of taxing individuals by income instead of profits. The morals?

--
lp

Perhaps you could define what a businesses income is for me.

[pescadero]

Perhaps you could define what a businesses income is for me.

We define it the same way we define it for individuals.

--
lp

[TimT]

We define it the same way we define it for individuals.

--
lp

Which is......

[pescadero]

Which is......

The monetary payment received for goods or services, or from other sources, as rents or investments.

--
lp

[TimT]

Business would be taxed like individuals. 10% of income not profit - just like you and I - and no deductions.--
lp
The monetary payment received for goods or services, or from other sources, as rents or investments.

--
lp

So, the flat tax system would be 10% of gross receipts? Yeah, that'll work.:lol::lol: At 10% of receipts, you've just exceeded the profit of many distributors. Every time an item is sold, from manufacturer to end user there will be a 10% tax? Perfect!


Income for an individual is well represented by their W-2.

Income for a business cannot be determined until expenses are calculated. A tax based on receipts alone is simply not feasible. There are too many variables, from manpower only companies to high utility use manufacturers to high-dollar/low-margin distribution, to even consider a flat tax on business.

[Hamilton Reef]

The original thread topic is REPUBLICANS for GRANHOLM

Today I received two red bumper stickers. REPUBLICANS for GRANHOLM

Republicans for Granholm
http://republicansforgranholm.com/contactus.php
33855 Capitol, Livonia, Michigan 48150 (734) 716-7433

I will continue to support my fellow state and federal biologist working to protect the natural resources of the state. DeVos is enemy #1 representing a return to the evil years of John Engler.

[pescadero]

So, the flat tax system would be 10% of gross receipts? Yeah, that'll work.:lol::lol: At 10% of receipts, you've just exceeded the profit of many distributors. Every time an item is sold, from manufacturer to end user there will be a 10% tax? Perfect!


Income for an individual is well represented by their W-2.

Income for a business cannot be determined until expenses are calculated. A tax based on receipts alone is simply not feasible. There are too many variables, from manpower only companies to high utility use manufacturers to high-dollar/low-margin distribution, to even consider a flat tax on business.

...and I as an individual don't have those same issues? If my expenses exceed my income - my bank account goes down and my tax bill is unaffected. Yet a business gets to write off all their losses? Why should they get that privilige, and I should not? Or should we all be taxed on profits?

--
lp

[TimT]

...and I as an individual don't have those same issues? If my expenses exceed my income - my bank account goes down and my tax bill is unaffected. Yet a business gets to write off all their losses? Why should they get that privilige, and I should not? Or should we all be taxed on profits?

--
lp

Wow.

Deductions are not privilige, they are proper, necessary, logical deductions that must be considered in determining the profit and correct taxation of a business.

An individuals reported w-2 income is as close as you can get to a reflection of their households net income and therefore a logical tax base.

Gross receipts are not representative of a business's true income. Therefore, a tax based on that alone would not only be unfair, but would prevent many business's from operating.

We've highjacked this thread long enough for this fairy-tale of a tax scheme.

[pescadero]

Wow.

Deductions are not privilige, they are proper, necessary, logical deductions that must be considered in determining the profit and correct taxation of a business.

...and why is that not true for individuals? If my expenses outpace my income, I should be able to claim a loss - just like a business, correct?

An individuals reported w-2 income is as close as you can get to a reflection of their households net income and therefore a logical tax base.

It isn't very close to a households net income at all.

Gross receipts are not representative of a business's true income.

...and W-2 reported income minus deductions and allowances is not representative of an individuals true income... just ask anyone with kids how much of the cost is covered by the child tax credit.


Therefore, a tax based on that alone would not only be unfair, but would prevent many business's from operating.



...and the current scheme where a business gets to take costs into account and individuals do not IS fair?

--
lp

[TimT]

I've been pretty clear and basic in post 112 and 115. If you'd like to continue this, start a new thread or PM me.

We're both way off topic, as I am not a Republican voting for Jenny, nor do I personally know any. In fact, I do actually know several folks that typically vote democrat that will be voting devos this year. (Or, so they said.)