Need some advice here, crossbow use.

[homerdog]

My nephew was over last night, he's 10 so he can go bowhunting this year. I asked him if he has been practicing with his bow and he said "no not much, but I've been practicing a lot with grandpas crossbow".

My brother in law got a crossbow permit this year and now it sounds like he's gonna turn his grandson into a violator on his very first hunt.

Any advice on how to handle this other than going over and kicking my brother in law's rearend? Since I'm not 100% sure he's actually going to let him use the crossbow, but it sure sounds like it.

[QuakrTrakr]

Since I'm not 100% sure he's actually going to let him use the crossbow, but it sure sounds like it.

Ask him. Then remind him it's not legal.

[homerdog]

No offense intended, but I think I would have waited to find out his intentions until I posted about it.

I mean really.............why get everybody all riled up over an assumption ?

My brother in law is not the most ethical guy when it comes to hunting, one of the reasons I no longer hunt with him, so along with the way my nephew sounded about using it and b-i-l's past history, it's a pretty good assumption.

But next time I see him I will mention it to him and remind him that the permit is in his name only.

[malainse]

I would start by going over there and making small talk about hunting.

Kinda like " Hey it is great that they changed the bow rules so boy can hunt this year. I would guess that he is getting good with his bow. Sounded like he was excited about hunting when he was over at the house.
We need more kids that that have an interest in hunting. With so many anti's out there we need to teach our children the proper way to use our resources or in a few years the anti's could win.

Then lead into something like this.... I was on the internet the other day was reading the DNR Officers Weekly Reports. While some are funny other upset me and all other ethical hunters. I can not believe that some people out there are teaching there children to break the law or as they call it bend the rules. One week the parents have the kids snagging and another poaching.

Just an idea to get you started on the topic without starting a family pissing match..

Homerdog, Was typing my reply when you posted yours....:)

[Thunderhead]

My brother in law is not the most ethical guy when it comes to hunting, one of the reasons I no longer hunt with him, so along with the way my nephew sounded about using it and b-i-l's past history, it's a pretty good assumption.

But next time I see him I will mention it to him and remind him that the permit is in his name only.

I deleted my prior post cause after reading it, I didn't want to sound rude, that wasn't my intention. You can post whatever you like. :)

I'd just tell him straight out............you poach, I call the DNR. End of disscussion. Do it for your nephew...........

[Sam22]

Remind them both that a crossbow is really an inferior weapon to use on whitetail, to a compound that is, that should work as leverage. If they don't believe you, well they should, but remind them about penetration differences, downrange arrow/bolt drop.

[Partikle]

Remind them both that a crossbow is really an inferior weapon to use on whitetail, to a compound that is, that should work as leverage. If they don't believe you, well they should, but remind them about penetration differences, downrange arrow/bolt drop.

What are you talking about? Crossbows have greater velocity then compound bows. An Excalibur Exomax has a velocity of 355 fps.
http://excaliburcrossbow.com/demo/listings.php?category_id=41
What kind of compound bow are you shooting that is faster then that?

[Adam Gibbs]

What are you talking about? Crossbows have greater velocity then compound bows. An Excalibur Exomax has a velocity of 355 fps.
http://excaliburcrossbow.com/demo/listings.php?category_id=41
What kind of compound bow are you shooting that is faster then that?
true, but shooting a xbow at 60 yards is a big difference. that bolt will probably drop 10 feet.they may be fast, but the have a short power stroke, which means more down range loss of trajectory.

[ShotOverHim]

true, but shooting a xbow at 60 yards is a big difference. that bolt will probably drop 10 feet.they may be fast, but the have a short power stroke, which means more down range loss of trajectory.lol 350 fps is 350 fps no matter what the powerstroke.

[skipper34]

There isn't a deer that walks that should be even attempted a shot at 60 yards.

[Partikle]

true, but shooting a xbow at 60 yards is a big difference. that bolt will probably drop 10 feet.they may be fast, but the have a short power stroke, which means more down range loss of trajectory.

I prefer to keep all my shots within 20 yards. I might try 30 under ideal conditions. Whoever attemps a 60 yard shot at a deer with any bow equipment should not be hunting IMHO.

BTW, at 50 yards it will only drop 21 inches.
http://excaliburcrossbow.com/demo/m/content/article.php?content_id=246

[deputy]

Yah wait till you see bowtechs new one(crossbow) 400fps

[NEMichsportsman]

Any advice on how to handle this other than going over and kicking my brother in law's rearend? Since I'm not 100% sure he's actually going to let him use the crossbow, but it sure sounds like it.


Ask him first...then make sure you have a pair of Butt-kicking boots on just in case...

Cant confirm this but since most of the thread is off topic ...someone sent me this cross bow tidbit,figured I would share it.

At a Federal Supermax Prison in Marion, Illinois, an inmate built a crossbow out of newspaper, a plastic food tray for the tip, and elastic from underpants. The inmate was able to shoot an kill an inmate from across the hall (15 feet).

[GVDocHoliday]

Haven't seen a crossbow I can't outshoot with my bow. Crossbows simply are not as accurate or efficient as compound bows. That's fact.

[Violator22]

NEMichsportsman, this was debunked on Mythbusters, they tried everything to get it to work, so it is an Urban Myth. Les

Episode 44: Paper Crossbow
Lethal newspaper crossbow: plausible
Vodka smoke remover: plausible
Vodka bee killer: busted
Lethal newspaper crossbow
Myth: At a Federal Supermax Prison in Marion, Illinois, an inmate built a crossbow out of newspaper, a plastic food tray for the tip, and elastic from underpants. The inmate was able to shoot an kill an inmate from across the hall (15 feet).

Components research
Adam visited San Quentin State Prison and it's Museum. Among the prize weapons on display in the museum were a gun made plumbing parts (.32 caliber, semi automatic with flashguard) and a newspaper spear that used a styrofoam cup for the tip.

Jamie went underwear shopping to collect various samples of elastic that might be used in prison underwear.

Jamie: "Do you think we can call this standard prison issue?"

They did some experimentation with the glue to try and find a plausible homebrew glue to use in the myth. They tested casein glue (milk, vinegar, baking soda), a flour + water glue, a flour + water + sugar glue, and a gelatin + glycerine glue, then compared them against commercial wood glue.

casein glue (came out pasty): 21 lbs of force before separating
flour, water: 25 lbs
flour, water, sugar: 25 lbs
gelatin and glycerine (book-binding glue): 36 lbs
wood glue (control): 60lbs
Speargun experiment
They received a video from Pelican Bay Prison (Northern California).of an inmate constructing a crossbow-like weapon, then firing it through a prison door. The weapon consisted of:

elastic
barrel made from tightly wound paper
plastic spoon sharpened into a dart
Jamie and Adam used the video to construct a weapon that wasn't quite as good as the one in the video. They were no closer to testing the myth as Jamie observed, "This is more of a speargun," and, in order to fulfill the myth, they would have to construct an actual crossbow.

Playing with real crossbows (performance testing)
Jamie and Adam went to Archery Only in Newark to test the accuracy, velocity, and penetration of commercial crossbows. Jamie fired some bolts through a chronograph to get velocity measurements. They combined this weight measurements, to estimate the kinetic energy of crossbows at 61 ft/lbs.

They then tested various arrowheads to find the most lethal design. They fired at a ballistics gel target and measured the depth of penetration.

Standard: 6"
4-bladed razor tip used for hunting: 6 1/2"
Cut-on-contact broadhead: 8" (also the simplest to make)
For the accuracy test they shot at a target from 15'. Jamie was able to make one large hole using three bolts, showing that a crossbow is very accurate from 15'.

Paper crossbow build off
Ingredients of the challenge:

Newspaper
Underwear
Prison issue dinner trays
Homemade glue
2 days construction time using any tools in the shop
Jamie uses a cone-shape stuffed with paper to construct the main crossbow elements. Adam's design consisted of many tightly rolled support struts. Adam: "I call this... the Red Baron" Adam was ahead of Jamie in the build process so he was able to use the plastic tray to make a firing mechanism. Jamie ended up adding support struts to his design, making it look a lot more like Adam's.

Their evaluation of each other's design put Adam in the lead:

Adam: "Dude, if the full draw of the bow makes it collapse, is candy going to pour out?"

Jamie: "Wow, that's pretty good"
The firing test
The test setup consisted of a ballstics gel bust of Grant placed 15' feet away from a mock prison door.

The commercial crossbow they tested had a velocity of about 250 ft/s with 61 ft/lbs of force. It was also able to penetrate 3" into the left nostril of the ballistics gel bust. According to a chart they found:

< 25 ft/lbs: small game (rabbits)
25-41: deer, antelope
42-65: elk, black bear
66+ bears, buffalo
In order to be lethal, they decied that the medium game force, 24-41 ft/lbs, would be enough.

First up was Jamie's Flying Y design. The first shot was one of the best at 60 ft/s, but it missed the mark and skipped off the top of the bust's head. The fastest shot was clocked at 68 ft/s and they estimated the kinetic energy of the bolt at 4.1 ft/lbs. Jamie's bow had accuracy issues in addition to it's lack of oomph and none of the shots they showed stuck in the target. It didn't seem like they got too many shots off with Jamie's crossbow -- the paper in the main 'Y' started to crinkle and the shots were getting worse and worse.

Adam's Red Baron "Dreamcatcher" design did a bit better. His first shot went 85 ft/s and penetrated 1" into the neck of the ballistics gel bust. He was able to get a shot off at 91 ft/s, but, much like Jamie's crossbow, the first shots it took were better than later efforts. Adam wasn't too worried about the fact that the paper crossbows started to break down quickly: "As soon as you shoot it, they're gonna know you have it."

They measured the kinetic energy of Adam's crossbow at 7.5 ft/lbs, still only good enough for small game, but they figured that 7.5 ft/lbs right in the jugular would be good enough to kill no matter what the chart said.

Adam actually won a build off for once!

They were unable to turn up no actual cases of serious injuries caused by crossbows, but Adam's jugular shot would have caused some damage.

plausible

[Partikle]

Haven't seen a crossbow I can't outshoot with my bow. Crossbows simply are not as accurate or efficient as compound bows. That's fact.

I beg to differ, I can robin hood a bolt easily within 5 or 6 shots if I want to at 20 yards with my crossbow. How many Joe Schmoe "non champion" regular guys can do that with a compound bow? I would say compound bows are not as accurate or efficient as firearms, but I don't see anybody trash talking them? Enjoy your compound bow because you're really limiting your options.

I own a crossbow and I love it. My next bow will be a Mathews switchback, but not because it's better, but because it's something new and different for me to hunt with.

[wackoangler]

I think what he means by efficency is that because a bow usually launches an arrow that is much heavier than the bolt that a crossbow launches, an arrow will usually have much more kinetic energy than a crossbow bolt will have, pretty much regardless of any reasonable difference in speed that they may have.
"the arrow will hit harder"