The happy medium: catch/kill vs catch/release

[Chris@hydeboats.com]

I was entertained by the recent threads regarding the well being of river systems dealing with the keeping or releasing of trout. Well I have an idea(it's not new) that I think could work very well on a lot of our Michigan streams. The regultions would be slot limits. This is the management tool that the majority of the western states use to manage there resource.

Here is an example of how the rules could be stated: All trout between 15-20inches must be released. An angler would be allowed to keep one fish over the 20 inch mark. You would be allowed to posess 3-5 trout under the 14 inch requirement.

I know that not everyone can be satisfied with the game laws, but this would seem like it could be good for our fisheries. Any thoughts?

[Splitshot]

Chris,

We already do have special regulations. In the flies only section of the Little Manistee for example you can only keep fish over 15" and only two fish.

On some streams and/or sections of streams they have different size limits. These regulations were put into effect to enhance the fishing and bigger fish.

When they tried it on the Muskegon near you, the trophy regulations made it a "No Kill" area for all practical purposes. Very few of the planted trout lived through the warm summer so less people fished there and none of the trout were utilized.

I'm not sure why they didn't apply any slot limits like you suggested, but I know they were considered. It is a good question though, and perhaps Mark Tonello can tell us.

[Chris@hydeboats.com]

My thought is that it would work especially on some of the larger bodies of water. The PM, Big M, Muskegon. I don't think that no kill is the answer because it singles out a certain group that would benefit more than others. With slot limits you allow people to take fish for a meal and also protect the fish that would reproduce or found a way to survive in not so ideal conditions. It also allows you to take home a very nice trophy fish.

[thousandcasts]

I guess it depends on the river system. I think slot limits would work in some rivers, maybe not in others. Of course, if we ever see the bottom draws on certain dams, that changes everything--and at that point, the regs will possibly have to change as well.

[dinoday]

I guess it depends on the river system. I think slot limits would work in some rivers, maybe not in others. Of course, if we ever see the bottom draws on certain dams, that changes everything--and at that point, the regs will possibly have to change as well.

I would(and I'm sure others),would LOVE to see a bottom draw for the Big M.
I would think regs. would change if that ever happens(I belive it was supposed to ,but hasn't as of yet.)
Slots work well in the south on salt water species with great success.It could work here too on certain rivers.

[Chris@hydeboats.com]

Did you say bottom draw? That would be to good to be true. I think that is why the western states have the regs that they do. Most of their larger rivers have more suitable summer conditions for trout.


Although I keep hearing rumors regarding a large tailwater located in the southwest portion of the state. On second thought never mind I have been hearing that rumor for years.

[Splitshot]

Chris,

In effect that’s what the 15" limit had on the Muskegon and is why trout only need to be 10" to keep now. If you don’t catch any resident trout 15" or bigger that means you have to throw them all back exactly what you have to do in the “No Kill” areas. It was great for the guides because of the reduced pressure and tons of easy fish to catch for their clients.

As far as planted fish, I think most of us would like to see less trout planted if the ones planted were keeper size to begin with. I have heard the DNR can’t do that because of some federal guidelines. It may be true, but so far no one can tell me the reasons.

If we could somehow get the temperature low enough all year to protect the trout at least in the tail waters on the Muskegon in particular below Croton Dam it might become one of the best trout rivers in the country. If a bottom draw on Rogers, Hardy and Croton would get the job done, it would be fantastic for trout. I have fished the Muskegon about Rogers Dam and by mid summer the water temps and reach the high 70's. With that warmer water flowing into the system it might not be possible to keep the water cool enough to maintain a year round trout fishery.

Even when they create the bottom draw for Hoydenpyle and Tippy, they think they will have to regulate the bottom water and only use it when needed. If they do it right it could make a tremendous improvement. Planting steelhead could become a thing of the past below Tippy and the trout fishing will greatly improve.

[thousandcasts]

Planting steelhead could become a thing of the past below Tippy and the trout fishing will greatly improve.

All,

Thousandcasts was rushed to a nearby hospital after reading the above sentence. Although he's resting comfortably (ie--heavily sedated) at the moment, his high-pitched screams of "they don't plant enough now" were absolutely gut-wrenching and so loud, in fact, that several cities in Lebanon were sent into panic mode because they thought the air raid siren was going off.

[WILDCATWICK]

I have fished slot size rivers in other states and liked what I saw. Much bigger fish on the average. Two of the rivers I fished before they became slot size rivers and saw an improvement. But there is no way for me to say with certainty that it was the slots that made the average size of the fish increase. Many of the streams that I have fished that have it have lots of other fishery improvements being made to the river on a regular basis..I.E. wood structure, bank improvements, tree plantings, and one even has introduced some waste into the river for added nutrients. The added nutrients did seem to make a difference with in a year.

I would not be oppoesed to the DNR experimenting more with slot sizes but to really find out how it works they would probably need to do nothing else with that stretch of river for 3-4 years to really gauge what it's true effects are and that is still dependent on weather conditions year to year.

[Chris@hydeboats.com]

I agree that the water conditions need to be more suitable for trout for slot limits to make a difference. Having slot limits on a river that gets into the mid seventies in the summer won't have a noticable impact. If the conditions are ideal for trout I think that they benefit the sytem greatly.


The rumor I had heard regarding the Muskegon would be to hold back water during the day at hardy. Currently the water near Hardy dam is in the mid sixties according to the fish finder. The water would be released at night so the released water wouldn't have the chance to heat up as much and a bubbler would be in place at croton to try and keep water temps below seventy. If they were ever able to keep the temps below seventy I agree with Splitshot that we would have one of the best trout fisheries in the country on our hands if managed properly.

[thousandcasts]

The rumor I had heard regarding the Muskegon would be to hold back water during the day at hardy. Currently the water near Hardy dam is in the mid sixties according to the fish finder. The water would be released at night so the released water wouldn't have the chance to heat up as much and a bubbler would be in place at croton to try and keep water temps below seventy. If they were ever able to keep the temps below seventy I agree with Splitshot that we would have one of the best trout fisheries in the country on our hands if managed properly.

Whether the trout fishery in the Mo improves is neither here nor there with me, but I’d love to see the bottom draw/bubbler for this simple reason: improved survival in wild steelhead young. Since we stand a better chance of seeing OJ catch “the real killers” than we do seeing any additional steelhead planted in that river, more wild adults is the only option to getting more fish added to that system.

[Splitshot]

Steve,

The number of steelhead that hatch in the Big Manistee below Tippy is astronomical. Problem is because they don't head downstream until they reach about 6" (smolt) and it takes almost 2 years they never make it. Actually by the August of their first year the young steelhead are difficult to find.

If they could keep the river cool enough so these young steelhead could surive summer there would be enough natural reproduction and planting would be un-necessary.

The Big Manistee gets great natural reproduction of salmon because they head for the big lake the first year before the river warms enough to kill them.

The 15" rule is there for the same reason as slot limits and I think is more effective and is why it was chosen. Just guessing here. I'll try and find out and post later. As Wildcatwick said, the real key to great trout fishing is cool water and good habitat.

I have made some minor improvements on my 1/4 mile section of river and the results are apparent. I see the same thing on most rivers I fish.

The section of the Big Manistee below M72 was most dramatic. I fished it years ago in a 12' row boat with my uncle and we usually did fine. I fished it just before they made it flies only with spinners and plugs and couldn't believe the number of big trout I turned.

If I were a mousing man, I'd be fishing that section heavy. Lots of habitat improvements made there. The big problem is there is a lot of private property and access is difficult.

[Steve]

I'd be all for this on certain rivers.

[thousandcasts]

The number of steelhead that hatch in the Big Manistee below Tippy is astronomical. Problem is because they don't head downstream until they reach about 6" (smolt) and it takes almost 2 years they never make it. Actually by the August of their first year the young steelhead are difficult to find.

If they could keep the river cool enough so these young steelhead could surive summer there would be enough natural reproduction and planting would be un-necessary.


Something along the lines of over 1 million hatched parr (estimated) and at the end of the summer, that number is down to around 3000 if my memory of that study is correct. Yes, the hatch number is astronomical, but where you and I disagree, my friend is this: you can never have enough steelhead! ;)

[Ray Adams]

I'm all about this practice. I would also like to see bottom draw dams for sure. More than anything else though, I would like to see less emphasis on planting (put and take) and more on habitat improvements to benefit the stream so there are more holdover and naturally reproducing trout. Bottom draw dams would indeed go a long way toward making the holdover happen.

Good post, Chris.

Ray

[Whit1]

Hutch,
You are in Spectrum in GR I take it? Can I send a card there?.......:lol:

There are many forms of slot limits some of which might be called modified slot limits. In some blue ribbon trout streams an angler may only keep three fish over 15 inches out of five.

Catch and Release! Catch and Keep! Slot Limits! Bottom Draws from dams.....all have a place in our fishing and stream regulations whether required by the DNR or as an individual practice. Okay, not "bottom draw".

[thousandcasts]

I'm...on...medication...now. Seeing "stop planting steelhead" and "greatly improved trout fishing" in the same sentence was and still is too much for me to take.

[thousandcasts]

The draw back to bottom draws will...er would be the inevitable battles that follow. You don't have to be a fortune teller to know that as soon as someone see's a trout over 15", a certain demographic will start Squawking like a bunch of parrots!

Squawk...trophy regs, trophy regs! Squawk...no kill, no kill! Squawk...artificials only, artificials only!

;)