Pro vs Am entry

[STEINFISHSKI]

I've read many things in regard to requirements for fishing the Pro division or Amateur division. Our team is considering approaching certain manufacturers to field test or help sponsor our team. I copied this while reading the Muskegon rules.


PRO TEAMS DEFINED - Designated Pro Teams are required to fish Pro Division. Pro Division is open to all.

1. Teams or individuals who represent a MAJOR fishing related product or are sponsored or promote a MAJOR fishing related product where sales may be increased because of tournament participation must fish in Pro Division. Field testers are generally not considered Pro Teams.

2. All licensed charter boats and/or charter captains who worked as captain on any licensed charter boat in the last two years must fish in Pro Division.

3. Pro Teams (for example) Big Jon, ProKing, Dreamweaver, Stinger, Polar, Rampage, etc. must fish in Pro Division. Failure to fully disclose all pertinent information may result in disqualification with absolutely NO refund and NO prizes awarded. It is your responsibility to comply with the Pro/Am Rule.


So one question I have is if we land one of the major fishing related products as a sponsor, and add their company logos to our boat and shirts should we be required to fish the Pro division according to the rules? I'm sure this is a gray area, but many amateur teams do this and fish the Am division.

Not looking to start trouble here, just some input and opinions on the subject so lets keep it civil.

[EdB]

I think if a manufacturer is giving you some lures or equipment to test and that's it, entering AM is fine. If they are giving you cash or other significant value such as free hotels to fish a tourney, you should probably enter Pro. I think if you place their logos on your boat or shirts, even if they don't give you money, and you enter AM, your going to raise eyebrows and end up in some conflict with other participants who think you should be Pro. It might not be worth the hassle?

[fishinmachine2]

No you shouldnt have to fish pro for that. You may get a few baits, stickers shirts hats what ever but your not selling the product and making money off of it. Your just a rep.

Heres another one for you, what about these tackle stores like the guys from Broadlows in St. Joe and the guys from Captain Chucks in Ludington, should they be fishing pro or am. They both fish in the am divisions and i'm not sure i agree with that but thats just what i think.

Scott

[tgafish]

Tim,
Not sure of the rules as they are out in the tourneys. But reading what you want to do I would say that your team has gone pro. Definition of amatuer to me is guys going ou there and doing it on their own. Let's say a tackle shop gives you $2K worth of tackle. Well that gives you an advantage over me. Over the course of a season if I want to stay competetive then I have to find some sort of sponsor. Pretty soon everybody's looking for sponsors to stay competetive in the AM division. I think that stuff should be reserved for the pros to worry about. A lot of you guys are just as good a fisherman as any of those charter captains. The difference is they have the sponsorships and people paying to fish their boat.

[Verdict]

I think Ed raises a great point which I believe helps draw the line between Pro and Am teams which is what sort of support you receive from the "sponsor". If you are simply getting discounted or free baits or other equipment from the manufacturer, I think that clearly places you into the category of a "field tester" and still eligible for the Am division. However, if you are receiving cash from the company to pay for entry fees or other expenses you should fish the pro side. In essence, that company is paying you to fish the event as its representative - to me that is the definition of a professional.

With regard to logos on the boat or team shirts, I tend to disagree with Ed. I would expect that any company would hope a team they "sponsor" (e.g. give cash to) or bring on board as a "field tester" (e.g. free lures etc) would be willing to promote the product via logos. I personally do not think that promotion of the product changes your status, nor do I think that other Am teams will think any of it.

Just a case in point, there are several manufacturers out there that actively sell there decals or apparal with their logos to promote their product. I think we can all agree that it does not make sense to require any team wearing logos to fish pro, since it simply is not feasible to ascertain whether one team bought their shirts from a website while another has a deeper affiliation. However, if we institute such a rule that is the path we are going down.

Just my thoughts...

Tim
Verdict - Ludington

[EdB]

I just want to clarify that I don't think logo's on your shirt or boat would make you a pro. I agree with you Tim on this. What I meant is that there are "some" people who might hassle you about it if you walked up to the podium to accept an AM award decked out like one of the pro such as Stinger.

[STEINFISHSKI]

Great discussion and some great input here guys.

Levels of sponsorship including representing major fishing products are already mentioned in the rules and they are required to fish pro. If a team has their boat and shirts stickered up with sponsors logos it would hardly seem as though they are not representing them, especially if they promote their products via reports and that is mainly what they say they are using. But may well be hard to prove. As Ed said your going to raise eyebrows and end up in some conflict with other participants who think you should be Pro, so in that respect alone it does not seem worth it unless you decide to fish Pro.

As far as a private company or boat using a company to pay or write off expenses, this would definately require them to fish pro according to the rules. This is sponsorship and should be addressed as such, but again would be hard to prove.

Tom, our couple good finishes this year has won us over 2k in prizes so far, but less expenses and divided between 4 guys is not very much money at all. And the captain has the outlay for the boat, maintenance, insurance, storage, and equipment. We pool our tackle and an outside source of help like sponsorship would help with many of these issues netting us more money and help us on our way. Tom's open bow LUND is a sweet boat and outfitted to the limit, but I honestly do not believe we are ready to fish Pro. Although we can keep up with them on some days.

[tgafish]

Tom's open bow LUND is a sweet boat and outfitted to the limit, but I honestly do not believe we are ready to fish Pro. Although we can keep up with them on some days.


Gotta agree with you there on Tom's boat. I'll fall in line with the other guys comments. If you recieve moneys from the sponsor then you should be pro. I know that fishing tourney's isn't a money making endever. Just a way to have some fun competition and maybe off set some of the cost if you place.

[gomer]

You guys make some good points and it can all be argued either way, but this is the way I see it.

I don't see a problem with someone who has sponsors fishing amateur, BUT if you start winning tournaments consistantly, I believe there should be some sort of a rule that makes you have to start fishing pro. Amateur boats are exactly that- AMATEUR. Thats just my opinion.

Does getting spoons cheaper or having stickers on the side of your boat make you better fisherman? I dont think so...

[pelagic1]

If you are going to APPROACH manufacturers to be SPONSORED you should be looking at fishing pro. It is clearly stated under pro teams defined #1.

IN MY OPINION if "sponsor" is even mentioned you should be pro.

Now what is considered a sponsor is another issue and I agree with most of the views already expressed about this.

I think most of the stickers, decals, discounted baits are not sponsor deals but fall into the realm of field testing.

IT IS A FINE LINE however, so whether you consider it a "real sponsor" or a "field testing deal from a sponsor" or whatever, you should be careful about how you come across to others.

It seems clear to me that if you are sponsored you must be pro and if someone wanted to raise an issue they would be able too.

As far as the tackle store representatives who fish AM in tournaments - I would never do it! Again it clearly states that if sales are increased from tournament participation you must fish pro.

Just my opinion



- Lake Effect

[STEINFISHSKI]

Well I think I can tell already we do not want our team to get mixed up in this Representitive/Sponsor buisness while fishing in the amateur division. Thanks again for the comebacks, I respect all of your opinions and thoughts in this matter.

Tim

[mrymar]

First and foremost, you have to go by the rules that are for the specific event you are fishing.

I wish the touranment trail events would come up with a standard set of rules for some areas of the events. AM/PRO being one of those topics. What should those be........... I would be more than happy to voice my opinion, but it dont really matter cause it wont happen.

[jdman]

I Think : If You Recieve Free Merchandise From A Manfacture'r You Should Fish The Pro Side............. You Have A Advantage Over Me... I Have To Pay For Everything I Own....... If You Have The Company Name On Your Boat And Your Shirt You Are Promoting That Business.... You Are The Bidboard For The Company..... In Fact The Companys Right These Free Items Off As Advertising.... Nothing Piss Me Off More Then Competing Againest A Company Suported Boat In The AM Division.....

Jeff

[Far Beyond Driven]

My boat says "Four Winns" on the sides and my boat shirt has a picture of said Four Winns on it.

Do I have to fish the pro division?

Yes I'm being cynical, as I got my stones stepped on as a certain dodger maker sends me stuff to field test, so someone thought I should have to be a pro. I don't even talk about the stuff until it's on the market.

Oh well. I'm remembering why I don't fishing tournaments much anymore. Too many gray areas.

FBD, Holland, MI

[pikedevil]

A VIP or field testing gig is not even close to being considered sposorship by any of the major tournament commitees. If your getting money, or FREE gear, thats when the problems begin. I agree that the tackle store guys that fish AM is a crock though.

[Allrounder]

Well I guess I will put my .02 cents in here since I do have a little background on this discussion. It sounds to me like a lot people feel that these tournaments are little club tournaments for people who go out fish for 3 hours, 2 times a month. These are major tournaments, ones that tackle manufacturers put a lot of money into. Both Am and Pro divisions are a cut above the normal fisherman. Similar to Walleye tournaments it costs a lot of money to fund a schedule of tournaments even in the Am division, and I would say that the Amateurs in the walleye circuit are probably all sponsored.

A lot of you already know us but I will give you a little background. We started fishing competitively about 4 years ago. Our goal has always been to compete at a high level, to "look" professional, to help promote our local tackle manufacturers, and to be a team that gives fishing a good name. My hope in the long run is that these high level tournaments will get televised someday and bring in the kind of sponsor money that the bass boys get. Well that doesn't happen without some sort of a good show. We display a number of different manufacturers on our boat and on our shirts. These are all people that we buy tackle from and that we endorse. There are a lot of tackle manufacturers that you will never see on our boat because I can't endorse there product. My goal is that tackle manufacturers will do well from my promotion. They will then have more money to dump into sponsoring tournaments. An example, of this is Fishlander look how much money they put into all the tournaments up and down Lake Michigan. Not too bad for a relatively small company and I do endorse them. I think their customer service is great. I have nothing but good things to say about there spoons and downriggers.

I have discussed this topic at length with a lot of people that fish tournaments and that are on tournament committees. My definition of a pro fisherman is a team that either accepts money to fish tournaments or a team that can right off all the expenses of a tournament. I have run the numbers on fishing Pro and Am and it would cost our team an extra 3000 dollars to run the pro division. That is pretty hard to do when all your teammates are raising families. Its also hard to do without sponsor monies. Well how do you get sponsor money. You perform at the amateur level and get noticed by the sponsors. Our team has not accepted any money to fish tournaments from anybody. I have also never referred to myself as being "pro staff". I do however field test for a number of manufacturers, but I do not have the clout to say "Here's a list of 2000 spoons give them to me." Manufacturers however do want honest opinion of how there products work and how to make them better. Most of them are so busy running the company they do not have any time to actually fish.

We used to play competitive softball and in those tournaments the rules stated that you had to look like a team. I actually wish this was a rule on the tournament trail. What TV network do you know that wants to see winning teams go up and accept awards wearing a wife-beater or not shirt at all. Kind of tacky in my opinion. In softball in order to be on the team we had to go out find a sponsor for at least $500. This was for D level softball hardly professional. We fished Michigan City this year and burned close to $800 just in gas. I wish I could collect some money from sponsors to help pay for the high price of gas. I don't think anybody wants to see a tournament trail that is just for the rich, or where a boat that only catches 3 fish wins first prize.
Sorry about this being so long but a lot of people don't understand everything that is involved with tournament fishing. As far as your question Tim. I would encourage you to go out and make relationships with tackle manufacturers. Once you have a relationship developed it will be a lot easier for you get sponsor money when you do intend to go pro. Which is what my team plans to do in the near future. I also don't disagree with a 3 level tournament where there is a novice level. A lot of tournaments are doing this by way of a big fish division where all you have to do is catch a couple fish. The problem with this is that they are still competing against the people that can catch 20 fish. I am not trying to offend anyone just giving my point of view.

[pikedevil]

Well said Jason

These are not small tournaments, The top 5 Am boats are always comparable to the top 5 pro boats, it takes a heckuva lot to be competitive and the more resources you can use within the rules the better off your team and the sport of tournament fishing is going to be. Looking proffessional and promoting the products you are successful with should be encouraged on the amatuer level, not frowned upon.

[gomer]

Jason-

That was a very well thought out post and it sounds like we are on the same page here.

My hope in the long run is that these high level tournaments will get televised someday and bring in the kind of sponsor money that the bass boys get.

I think that is exactly what Fred is trying so hard to do and it could very well happen, but not likely in the next few years.

For those that dont know, the South Haven tourny will be on the outdoor channel june 17th at 9pm.

[jdman]

My boat says "Four Winns" on the sides and my boat shirt has a picture of said Four Winns on it.

Do I have to fish the pro division?

Yes I'm being cynical, as I got my stones stepped on as a certain dodger maker sends me stuff to field test, so someone thought I should have to be a pro. I don't even talk about the stuff until it's on the market.

Oh well. I'm remembering why I don't fishing tournaments much anymore. Too many gray areas.

FBD, Holland, MI



Yes, But You Paid For That Boat That Has The "Four Winns" Name On It Right ???? And The Shirt ??????? I Am Talking About Free Stuff....... Free Lures, Flashers, Riggers, Poles, Reels, Shirts.........If Your Recieving Stuff Free From A Manufacture'r Then Fish The Pro.....

Jeff

[tgafish]

Allrounder,
I very much understand the dollar amounts it takes to run a full, tournament schedule. That's why there are so many more people that just pleasure fish or enter those fun tourney's vs. the tournament trail. And some of those are damn good fisherman to boot. I guess my thought on that is no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to fish the tournaments. So if you choose to or want to take money from a sponsor then you should go into the Pro ranks.

I also think a three tiered system would be a good addition like you and others have said. Perhaps that could go a long way toward giving everyone close to what they want and could improve the dollars and boats brought in by these tourney's.

This is a very informative discussion to me. I was unaware of the divisive issues on the tournament trail.

[pelagic1]

I would encourage you to go out and make relationships with tackle manufacturers. Once you have a relationship developed it will be a lot easier for you get sponsor money when you do intend to go pro.
Very well put Jason


Your team is a positive image for this sport

Keep up the good work



-Lake Effect

[Marrble Eyes]

Similar to Walleye tournaments it costs a lot of money to fund a schedule of tournaments even in the Am division, and I would say that the Amateurs in the walleye circuit are probably all sponsored.

Having fished the boater/Pro side of the RCL/FLW league tournament trial in Michigan for the past 4 years I can say confidence 'HA your not even close'.

Most of the fellas I know that fish on the Boater side even, do it with NO sponsorship at all. Not even free lures. A few do most do not.
Do I? Nope.

the Pro/Amature distinction. Well I claim my tournament fishing as a business so I guess technicly I am a Pro. Do I have sponsors. NOPE. Do I want them?????? Do I accept payment when I place in the Money? Hell Yea!

Dictionary says Professional: 1. of, pertaining to, typical of, or practicing a profession. 2. Engaged in a specific activity as a career. 3.Engaging or engaged in for pay.

That seems pretty clear to me. You planning on accepting any winnings, you is a pro:yikes: If you are gonna turn it down and are not accepting any payment from anyone involved in the fishing industry to fish, you be a amature.:coolgleam

[plugger]

I am not into the tournament thing anymore but I think any sponsorship should be reserved for the pro divison. This might make manufactors ect dig a little deeper if they want plublicity.

[Allrounder]

TGA, I am not saying in any way that I don't want to fish these tournaments. I want to very much. I also want to fish them on the pro side. But currently I have a family of 5, 2 or my teammates have a family of 4, and one of my teammates has a family of 3. We simply can't afford to fish the pro side at this time with out sponsor money. I am currently building relationships right now so that when the time comes I can go to the manufacturers and ask for money and go pro. Unfortunately most tackle companies are not making the kind of money that everybody thinks they are. So you have to prove some level of commitment to the sport before they are willing to dole out even a couple hundred bucks.

Pelagic, Gomer, and Pikedevil, thanks for the kind words. I thinks its great to continue to see young new talent continuing to get into this sport. And also doing very well in these tournaments you guys all deserve applause.:)

Marrble eyes, I guess the people of the tournament committee out to change the amateur name then and call it something else. Because I am not willing to turn down money that I win.

[beer and nuts]

I think the def. of pro in the tournament trails(or at least in the Manistee Pro/Am) is if your a registered/certified Capt or you have one aboard fishing you must be on the pro side..I think!?

I knew one boat that had a Capt on that fished the AM, even though this fella had not been chartering for 10 plus years.....:cool: :coolgleam

Allrounder, thats a nice excuse saying you can not afford to go Pro but what is it every torunament an extra $100 to $150 per tournament divided by 4 fisherman, an extra $25/fisherman to put your name ahead of the big boys and go pro. Come on...your riding around in $25,000 boat, $1000's in tackle, burning $100's in gas every weekend, lodging, food, beverage, herring strips, the list goes on and on and you guys can not afford an extra $25 per person?!? Go Pro!

[Marrble Eyes]

Marrble eyes, I guess the people of the tournament committee out to change the amateur name then and call it something else. Because I am not willing to turn down money that I win.

That declaration alone would place you in a "pro" division in ANY competition event I know of and should IMHO. I suspect the organizers like to "broaden" the classifications to draw more entrants.

I really don't see what the big deal is. You want to earn money fishing tournaments call it what it is. Professional fishing-you are trying to win Money. You want to fish in local club events and earn points for a year end title. Then fish them and be considered an Amature.

[Allrounder]

Marrble eyes, you obviously don't understand what this discussion is about. It has nothing to do with local club tournaments. Which we stay out of. It has very much to do with biggest salmon tournaments on Lake michigan. They have designated a PRO and a AM, and they give out prize money for Pro and for AM. About your definitions that you have. This is by no means my career, and I might win some money, but nobody is paying me to do this. Like in my actual career or profession. I have been in a lot of different events where amateurs can win money, its also called gambling. Usually you have to put in money to win money.

On a side note, now that I think about it a lot of tournaments are moving away from the term amateur and moving towards a Division 1, and a Division 2 naming structure.

[Far Beyond Driven]

Yes I get free tackle.

I post a lot of fishing reports, so the tackle companies like to see me mention their stuff. I also tutor a lot of rookies, so the stuff they use on my boat tends to be the stuff they go out and buy. I tell all the companies the same thing. I will use your stuff. I will fish it hard in my program. If it works, I will say it works. If it sucks, I will say it sucks. If you don't have a problem with that, then I will accept your stuff.

So the one company that did not have a problem with that sent me a dozen or so dodgers to test a few years ago and they worked very well. I actually gave most of them away and bought some more in the hotter colors. I'm not even sure which ones I own anymore and which ones were given to me.

But I don't have their stickers on my boat.

Another one - Big Pappa a while back missed his quoted delivery date on my trolling bags. It was winter, I could have cared less that they were a few days late. But they showed up with a couple of free spoons as an apology. Good spoons. Am I now a Pro as I have spoons someone gave me on my boat?

Sometimes companies give out lures at the captain's meeting. If you run them, do you have to fish Pro?

I guess if I ever do enter a tournament, someone will pull this thread and demand I rescind any cash won as a couple times in the last few years I got $50 of free stuff to try out of the $10k in gear I carry on the boat.

People don't win tournaments on a regular basis due to being sponsored. Maybe sponsorship helps a little, but a spoon company handing me a couple hundred bucks and a pile of lures doesn't mean jack if I can't fish. The GH tournament is a prime example as it really shows who can string two good days together under awful conditions.

FBD, Holland, MI

[Beave]

I've fished very few "big" tournaments, and the ones I have turned me off pretty heavily because there were lots of guys who IMO didn't belong in the amateur division. One was out of Port Austin many years ago and the guys who won in both the Amateur and Pro divisions picked up and ran clear across the lake to the Port Albert area both days. (Remember, this was back when gas was $1/gal) Still, we're talking about 60+ miles in each direction plus a full day's trolling. I'd guess 85-90% of the other boats in the amateur division wouldn't even have the range to make a run like that if they wanted to. The guys who won the amateur division were fishing in an almost new 27' boat with dual 200 OB's on the back that had to have set them back $100K or more just for the boat and they had the best of everything for rigging and equipment too. They boated some nice fish, but I thought it was pretty pathetic they wanted to compete with the "amateurs" considering most of us were running smaller boats.

Another one I can think of was out of Grand Haven and it was a similar story. We're in the amateur division fishing a 22' Islander, which if you've fished tournaments you'll know is still bigger than most of the boats fishing the amateur division, and there's a guy in a 37' Tiara you'd have to look at twice before you realized he wasn't a charter in the same division. He didn't win, but at some point if you have that much money into a boat you need to quit messing around and just play with the big boys.

The Gold Coast tourney is one of my favorites simply because more than most they seem to get a good mix of fishermen and you don't have the schenanigans going on like some of the bigger money events.

[Beave]

Another comment or two...

1) I know Allround (Jason) and his entire team to some degree, and they're good guys. They're exactly the type of team that will cause controversy though because their boat is covered with mfg. stickers, they "look" like pros, and they're good fishermen who're going to be competative. Now they're good guys and aren't out fishing the smaller club type tournaments in the amateur division in hopes of pocketing a few hundred bucks by beating up on a field "average joes". However, that's not to say there aren't other teams like them who don't do that. For the big money GLPAA type events they do fit the definition of an amateur team, but they're definitely good enough they could be fishing the pros if they had the money. A lot of the teams fishing the pro circuit are only doing so because someone was fortunate enough to inherit a bunch of money somewhere along the way.

2) These problems probably arrise because it's still very vague how many tournaments define a Pro team. I think many have a very high bar before a team is forced to fish in the pro division, and if anything they actually hurt their participation in the amateur division because they scare people away. Maybe it's by choice since they really don't want to deal with weighing in 200 boats entered in the amateur division, I'm not sure. Like I mentiond above though, many events have no restriction on boat size or lifetime winnings caps before a team is forced into the pro division. Even if it's by the rules, it doesn't "smell" right to many people to see boats like the 37' Tiara I described above competing with amateurs.

3) Jason recommended forging relationships with the manufacturers, and I'd temper that with "only if you're already winning smaller events or placing in the amateur division of bigger events". I deal with all of the same companies as sponsors (or potential sponsors) for the MS.com Tourney, and most of them are Mom and Pop businesses. Most of your major spoon manufacturers actually started as a winter business to keep a charter boat family busy. They aren't making a lot of money, and they're inundated with requests from people wanting handouts. Mike Steffes (Fishlander) told me last year that he's constantly getting calls from people wanting to be on his Pro Staff so they can get free stuff. Just because you like to fish and you think you're a good fisherman doesn't mean these companies want to take a good customer and start giving him money in the form of product rather than making it off of you.

[minnow]

In my opinion a team that wins three am events in say two years should fish pro. But as far as receiving free tackle and that making you a pro, no that don`t make sense you just work a little harder than the next guy at your sport "public relations". It don`t matter if you receive 1 lure or 100 lure`s you can only use what your 9 rods will allow. I have worked with Fred on the Muskegon event and I will say he is always trying to make every event better. So if you feel there is something that could make the trail better and more user friendly send him your suggestions. This is his email address macdonald@toast.net

[Allrounder]

24' Bayliner Trophy $12,000

New Outdrive last year $1,300

New Engine over the winter $5,000

All the rods, reels, and tackle $(sorry don't want my wife to see)

Winning the Grand Haven Offshore Challenge PRICELESS

(sorry couldn't resist)

BTW Beer & Nuts, most Am entries are 100 - 200 dollars, most PRO entries are 500 - 600 dollars, now according to my math that is a three to four hundred dollar difference. We also didn't even get in the 50 dollar side bet last weekend which lost us $800. We are saving money to put the things on our boat so that we can better compete with the big boys. I. E. Autopilot, Radar, and better electronics.

There has to be an avenue for teams like me that want to build there way up to competing at the top level and this is it. There are plenty of other tournaments out there for people to compete at a lower levels. This level is one step below the biggest level. Anybody that knows me knows I do my research. I have discussed this at length with all the major tournaments that we compete in, and they are in full agreement of what Am status is and Pro status. My final thought, if you don't like it don't fish it, or go start your own Tournament Trail and make whatever rules you want. 42

[fishinmachine2]

I've talked to Fred about this and he said most guys get free lures every now and then. So does that make all those guys Pros... NO!! If you are a charter captain or own a tackle company or a tackle company pays your entry fee or you make money off of their tackle then you are considered a pro.

Boat size shouldnt matter either, I know alot of guys with big boats that couldnt catch their own A$%s with both hands. Just because a guy has a big boat, he shouldnt be penalized.

Most amatures are weekend fishermen, just because a guy gets a few free baits and has a big boat hes suppose to fish pro?? They cant compete with these guys that fish every day.

Scott

[caznik]

Come on Tim,
Your telling me that you are going to feild test lures and also receive free lures from lure companies. Also you will probly get more stuff free in the future, like downriggers or other stuff. Well Tim, to me and other members on this web site just knows how good of a fisherman you are that you have fish with and against in our fun tournaments we have together on the web site. I think all of your friends here on this web site that has fish with you would like you to go pro instead of amateur. We all know that you can do it. Also wouldn't you rather be a #1 in the pro division instead of #1 in the little amateur division. Come on buddy go pro.

Caznik

Hey Tim,
If I gave you $20.00 to help pay for your cost of your entry fee. Will you put CAZNIK on your boat....:lol:

[Zeboy]

Tom, our couple good finishes this year has won us over 2k in prizes so far, but less expenses and divided between 4 guys is not very much money at all. And the captain has the outlay for the boat, maintenance, insurance, storage, and equipment. We pool our tackle and an outside source of help like sponsorship would help with many of these issues netting us more money and help us on our way. .

I think you answered your own question early on in this thread. You are going into these tournaments with the expectation that you are going to come out of them with more money than you started. . .

That sure sounds like the definition of "Pro" to me.

[BFG]

A thought that has continually plagued me over the last few years while fishing many of the "major" tournaments on both sides of the pond:

Why is there a distinction between Am and Pro?? Advantage/Disadvantage??

I routinely compare the points/weights of the Am and Pro divisions, and for the most part, they mirror each other. It is not uncommon to see the winning Am boat have a better total the the winning Pro boat.

Some will argue that the Pro teams have a vast advantage over the amateurs based on equipment alone. Factor in time on the water, network of friends that fish day in and day out, and cash in the pocket, and that arguement seems valid. However....

I see no reason to have a separation. If a team has the resources to fish a tournament, then so be it. If a team does not, so be it as well. Then the arguement comes that...."well then tournies will be just for the rich and fortunate...leaving out the weekend warrior in his 19'er..."

I beg to differ. Big money tournaments are not designed with the weekend warrior that fishes 5 times a summer in mind. You give yourself the disadvantage from the get-go by not fishing as much as the Pro teams. Maybe this is why the Am divisions were created.....but I have to think that having two divisions further complicates the process. I am also of the opinion (like many others) that the Am payouts should not be nearly as high as some of them currently are.....this does nothing to encourage teams to move up to the Pro division.

Tournaments are competitions. Competitions are not held to see how many "equal" teams can be put on the water/playing field. It is your team versus the rest of the field. If you feel that you can compete against the field, then by all means enter the event. Creating Pro and Am divisions only creates an aura of hierarchy amongst the field....and many of the Am boats are jealous of the fact that a Pro team shows up at the weigh-in with nice shirts, logos on their boat, and a full cooler. Is it the Pro team's fault that they took the onus upon themselves to search out, communicate, and develop relationships with sponsors?? I would imagine that there is also tremendous pressure from the sponsor to perform well.

I just hate to see tournaments go the way of Little League Baseball where "everyone gets a trophy."

And before you ask, no....I am not a team member of a Pro boat...nor have I ever been. Team Heavy is a fun thing....and it'll stay that way....and if we decide to enter a tourney, it is one where there is no separation...such as the three one-day tournies within Salmonarama in July. We know we're up against charter captains, and that is ok with us.


BFG

[adjusted3]

Lets add another twist, Team Fishdog fished the AM division in St. Joe. We were not even in the hunt. We did cash a check for a big fish on the am side but was way down in the standings. Are, sould we be a Pro boat. Yes we own a tackle company. But we paid this entry out of our own pockets. If anyone knows us, Dave, Steve and Myself, we can be beat any weekend, anywhere on the great lakes. We are the weekend warriors. We fish because we we enjoy the sport, not to come in first but that 1, we enjoy the sport, and 2, to further our business. Are we competitive, yes! are we pro material? not even close. We would like to think so but we are not even close to the Best Chance guys. Do we wear matching shirts? yes!, Does that make us Pros?.......If your answer is yes, then we need to bow out of the Manistee event that we sponsor because you stand a chance of us whooping you ***. Even though we finished 7th and 8th last year in the final standings....Come on guys, if you fish full time for a living, you are a pro. If not, you got a choice.....

Come on guys, this is getting carried away...

Mark

[Sixshooter]

It sounds to me like a lot people feel that these tournaments are little club tournaments for people who go out fish for 3 hours, 2 times a month. These are major tournaments, ones that tackle manufacturers put a lot of money into. Both Am and Pro divisions are a cut above the normal fisherman.

This is the exact reason I stray away from the BIG tourneys.
This is the great lakes version of a "prestigous fly fisherman" vs the "lowlife bait fisherman".

If you are willing to put 100's of dollars of money into a tournement you are all the sudden better than the average fisherman?

To answer your question Tim. Do I think somebody is pro because they are sponsored. No...I think that they are resourceful. And they will only stay sponsered as long as they are catching fish and placing in the tourneys. If you fish for a living and have a monitary gain outside of the tourney trail then you should be in the "pro" division.

[STEINFISHSKI]

Thanks for the input guys, lot's to think about here. Being a newbie to the trail I am curious to where the line is drawn between the two, and now realize there is no clear line. Especially with the varied rules between the events, it seems like more of a personal decision.

I realize that it is not a money making event (yet), and fish it mainly for the fun and competitive nature. We decided up front if it ever stops being fun we will stop fishing them all together. We started in the smaller tourneys and decided to give the big ones a try and they have been a blast and I have met some great people and made many new friends and contacts.

Thanks for keeping this on topic and civil, and look forward to seeing you guys on the trail. Best of luck to all of you who participate at any level.

[BFG]

Big tournies like the Uecker and Morris on the West side have no separation. I like that format. However, it does cut down on the # of boats participating. Uecker only had 50-some boats this year, as opposed to 70-some last year.

Tourney fishing is fun...but I agree with Stein...when it becomes too much like work or stressful, I bow out.


BFG

[Allrounder]

Sixshooter I disagree with you 100% on your analogy. This is totally different. In your analogy there is a group a people that think they are better simply for what the can afford. In tournament fishing you go out and prove how good you are. In my opinion there is no such thing as a low life fisherman ever. Everybody fishes for there own reason. I do tournaments because I love the competitve nature. I fish all winter for Steelhead because its a get away from work. I will also throw on waders and go down to the Grand and fish for Carp just for the battle. Is it low-life to go fish for carp? Or do I just love to fish.

I think that if more fisherman came to these tournaments you would be amazed at how much you can learn in 2 days. Heck go out and follow the tourney rules, come back in weigh your own fish in and see how you rank with the other fisherman around. The tournaments are really fun, the butterflies in your stomach at the start, making decisions on where to fish, and catching a real big fish when it matters all contribute to the fun I have. The majority of the fisherman are also very enjoyable to be around and hang out with. There is a comradary very similar to the internet comradary.

Oh yeah Tim, its really not that grey of an area. You have to fish Pro if you are a charter captain, or if you are a tackle manufacturer. Thats it. People may not agree with the rule but that does not make it a grey area.

I also agree with BFG in his opinion. There is a lot of money in the Am divisions. There is really no reason for my team to fish Pro when I can usually pay for all my expenses where I am at. There is really no incentive to fish Pro if you don't have to.

[Sixshooter]

Sixshooter I disagree with you 100% on your analogy. This is totally different. In your analogy there is a group a people that think they are better simply for what the can afford. In tournament fishing you go out and prove how good you are.

Allrounder I don't expect you to agree with me. You are the one who stated that tournement fisherman are better than everybody else based on a competition. If you agreed with me then it would admit you are wrong. So no suprise there.

And that is fine if you want to believe that because you fish tournements and are willing to put money on the line that other fisherman should look up to you...great. I'm happy for you.

But I know a helluva lot of fisherman that givin the same resources (boats) as some of these "much better" fisherman they would whoop up. And of course if they had the need to be praised for their godly fishing status.

Do I fault people for fishing tournements? No not at all. I thing at times they help promote the sport. Do I think tournement anglers are better than anybody else? Sometimes, but sometimes not. To group together all the "average joes" is a horrible assumption.

But that isn't really what this thread is about. And I don't have a clue who you are. So it may be wrong of me to make a judgment based on what you have typed. But if you say my analogy is completely different then you should take a step back and look at the similarities.

Average Joe can afford a 14 or 16 foot boat. Can't fish the major tourneys they require an 18 or bigger.

So in fact it is a status based on the resources you can afford and there fore there are several similarities. But talking down to people because they have no desire for competition or wagering cash on an event in hopes that people will praise them as the supreme being is NOT my cup of tea.

Is everybody that fishes the tournements a better fisherman than me? Probably.

[tgafish]

Six your only problem is that if you put big money on a tournament you can't be back at camp at 8 am for breakfast, making nookie with the mrs., and getting a nap in all before weigh in.:lol: :lol:

[Allrounder]

I don't believe I ever created a group named average joes. You did. I don't believe anybody is better than anybody else. You are taking offense because you choose to. I said it is for people who are a cut above the normal fisherman. By that I meant the people who put all there available resources into fishing tournaments. Just so that you know when you fish these tourneys you will be competing against people who put all there extra money into the sport. They have purchased the best in tackle and gear. They have a passion for the sport that most "normal" fisherman don't have. They don't do it for the praise. They do it to see if they can beat the best fisherman at that tourney. Thats not for a lot of people I understand that. But don't get mad at me because I choose to do it. I really can't believe you equate my post to talking down to people I have done nothing of the sort. People are telling me I have to spend more money to fish at the higher divisions. They are telling me in a sense that they can't compete with me. Sorry I will compete at what division I want to. I will spend every last extra dime I have to win. And I will probably still lose more tournaments then I win.

I am sorry you don't know me and my team. We have actually bought stuff from you at a show. Where we were helping out other tackle manufacturers sell there products.

I have a question though. Do you think that Best Chance Too are probably some of the best fisherman on the lake. Or are they just good because they have a Tiara and a bunch of sponsors. Just curious I think they are pretty damn good and hope to learn a few tricks from them during a lot of these tourneys.

[mrymar]

You guys are getting off topic. Stay on topic before the mods lock it.

[mrymar]

As Steinfishski posted earlier about the Muskegon event:


PRO TEAMS DEFINED - Designated Pro Teams are required to fish Pro Division. Pro Division is open to all.

1. Teams or individuals who represent a MAJOR fishing related product or are sponsored or promote a MAJOR fishing related product where sales may be increased because of tournament participation must fish in Pro Division. Field testers are generally not considered Pro Teams.

2. All licensed charter boats and/or charter captains who worked as captain on any licensed charter boat in the last two years must fish in Pro Division.

3. Pro Teams (for example) Big Jon, ProKing, Dreamweaver, Stinger, Polar, Rampage, etc. must fish in Pro Division. Failure to fully disclose all pertinent information may result in disqualification with absolutely NO refund and NO prizes awarded. It is your responsibility to comply with the Pro/Am Rule.


I think 2 & 3 are pretty self explainatory. Item 1 is the tough one here. Lets take it in steps:

a. Do you 'represent a MAJOR fishing related product'? If yes, you must fish Pro. If not, then you can choose which division you want to fish.

b. Are you 'sponsored'? The tournament rules do not give a defination on the word sponsor. So, I would definately call them or bring this up at the captains meetings. If you look in Webster's Dictionary, the defination of sponsor has 3 meanings:
1 : one who presents a candidate for baptism or confirmation and undertakes responsibility for the person's religious education or spiritual welfare
2 : one who assumes responsibility for some other person or thing
3 : a person or an organization that pays for or plans and carries out a project or activity; especially : one that pays the cost of a radio or television program usually in return for advertising time during its course
Defination one does not apply. Defination two, i feel does not apply, as you or your team is no assuming the responsibility for an owner of a company or a company. Defination three is again tricky. You can get paid in any number of ways. You can get paid in money. You can get paid in tackle. You can get paid by purchasing items at discount. But in receiving payment, do you or your team have the intension to carry our a project or activity, like promoting the product you received a discount on?

I guess to really know if you are 'sponsored', you should contact the tournament committee of this event.

c. Do you 'promote a MAJOR fishing related product where sales may be increased because of tournament participation'? This again brings in the aspect of how do you define promote? Is a guy promoting Searay cause that is the type of boat he has and it has the label on the side of it? Is a guy promoting a product if he has a sticker on his boat for 'offshore tackle' even though he had to buy the sticker? I guess you would again have to ask the tournament committ on this part.

You guys that are thinking about fishing this, better get your stuff in order prior to fishing it. I would really hate for one of you guys to do well in the event, and then later have it protested.......

[Allrounder]

I agree with your post Mike. I have talked to Fred and a bunch of other tournament committees. This is a new tourney and they are the only tournament that has this wording. They did put the field testers are not considered pros in there for a reason I believe. I think it is funny that a team can have no stickers on his boat and beat everybody up and down and nobody would say a thing. But they put a handful of stickers on the side of the boat to help struggling companies out that can't afford advertisement, and all of a sudden they are pro. If there were teams that had budweiser or pepsi all over there boat that might be different.

All they really have to do is take a lot of the Am money and put it into the Prio division and every good team would fish there.

I hate to say it but this is a rule they are not going to enforce anyways. The only reason they have the tackle manufacturers in there is because people complained about one individual. They never did anything except make the rule and punish a bunch of tackle manufacturers that are too busy to get out and fish as much as a lot of other guys.

P.S. If they tell me to take my stickers off the boat, I can do that too, but is that really helping the sport. Thats all they are is stickers they don't catch fish. I really don't have anything else to say. Sorry if I offended anyone that was never my intention. I just love fishing tournaments and will be in everyone my wife will let me be in. See all of you in Muskegon.

[STEINFISHSKI]

All they really have to do is take a lot of the Am money and put it into the Prio division and every good team would fish there.

I just love fishing tournaments and will be in everyone my wife will let me be in. See all of you in Muskegon.



Agreed, the wife said I can fish 4 this year, hopefully more next year. Let's keep this off the personal level and stick to the issue. I just wanted to get a feel for the rules and spirit of them to form relationships and partnerships for the future. Not that they would take us very seriously anyway.:lol: There is nothing wrong with supporting the companies that sponsor these tournies. I personally E-mailed every one of them saying thanks.

Looking forward to Muskegon as well.:) See me there and I'll buy the first cold beer. Remember it's all about the fun anyway.

[Still Wait'n]

Having fished on the Pro-King boat for a few years, this is a subject that can go round and round. ;)

[FLAT RATE]

You guys have brought up a subject that no one ever has a good answer for or ever will untill the rules define exactly what a Pro vs Amt. is. Untill the rules spell that out ( I agree with Mike , I don't think they ever really will) I think guys have to use thier own best judjment and others shouldn't be too quick to judge them. It can be frustrating seeing a fully decked out boat filled with the best equipment go out and always finish high in the Amt. division when you are trying to do well against them , but , that is how a lot of good Pro teams have started , in the Amt. division. Look at a lot of sporting events , most have divisions to start out in and ways to work your self up in as you get better and prove your self. If a team wants to fish amt. then so be it , if they are really good then it is a good ruler to measure yourself up against and see how you do , good or bad it is a way to compare yourself. I have heard guys say the Scott and Dave on FishinMachine and Jason and crew on TRD should be fishing pro , but thats an opinion and as long as they are not violating any rules as written then they should be able to fish any division they want. Money does come in to play when trying to put together a pro team , we are fortunate to have a couple of very good sponsors and are able to fish pro division , we love it on the pro side , does that make us better fisherman than amt. fishermen or any others , hell no , but we have fun at it and that is what is important. Jason and Derek and crew on TRD , Scott and Dave on Fishinmachine and the Double Down Team , along with a lot of other great teams out there do make this a fun sport and do a good job to represent the angling community , and I think that we should all look and act profesional at all times , no mattter what division we are fishing in , we can do that by wearing the nice shirts and coats , having the decals on the boats and so on but most importantly , we must ACT profesionaly and behave and represent ourselves in a positive light.
Rick B from Team Experience Outdoors

[gomer]

Flat Rate-

Right on!

Also, that was a NICE steelie you guys had day 2 in grand haven!

[FLAT RATE]

Thanks , that Steelie gave us a few anxious moments when he got near the boat and we all saw his size. Hopefully we can get a couple more of the same size this weekend in Mansitee , it would sure help in our quest for a nice 333 payout.

[Sixshooter]

You guys are getting off topic. Stay on topic before the mods lock it.

You are correct. I appolagize.

[BFG]

Well stated Rick. Best of luck to everyone this weekend at Manistee. Sounds like the kings have shown up.


Good fishing and be safe my friends.



BFG

[caznik]

Man this thread is still going on. Hey yote pimp, Six appolagized long time ago for what ever he said.

Caznik :smile-mad

[twohand]

A VIP or field testing gig is not even close to being considered sposorship by any of the major tournament commitees. If your getting money, or FREE gear, thats when the problems begin. I agree that the tackle store guys that fish AM is a crock though.

Now, Pikedevil would that include Nate and I? The boat that Nate and I fished on in the Grand Haven and Muskegon tournaments was a privately owned 34' Tiara(In Pursuit) The owner (a very nice guy) likes to fish the tournaments for the fun of it. Nate and I happen to be friends with him and he is nice enough to have us as part of the team. As far as the shirts go, they were purchased by the boat owner and the patches are not sponsors but a way of thanking good people for producing great products. As far as tackle goes we probably had less along with us than 50% of the boats in the AM division. We don't consider ourselves professional fisherman, we fish about once a week. I've always considered pros to be people that fished for a living i.e. charters and people like Kevin Van Dam. We don't want to be considered on of "those boats" should we possibly drop the shirts? I'm sorry if anyone thinks we're pros and I hope that the second day of the Muskegon tourney proved that we aren't, we lost nine fish all nice kings and only ended up weighing 6 for an 18th place finish. I think it all had to do with being boat #13!!!!!!!

[Sixshooter]

Man this thread is still going on. Hey yote pimp, Six appolagized long time ago for what ever he said.

Caznik :smile-mad

Thanks Caz. But as far as this yotepimp person. out of her 21 posts 18 of them have had sexual content associated to them. So no suprise...I wouldn't be suprised if Steve checked IP's or MAC addresses that this guy has more than one account on the site.