Motor Problem

[kingfisher 11]

If there are any wrench heads out there maybe you can help me out here.
I decided to take my boat out of storage and hit the river the other day. While hooking up my battery I was talking to my father in law and was side tracked and put the cables on the wrong posts of the battery (can you say idiot). I heard the distinctive sound of a fuse popping. After I switched the cables back, I tried to start it up. All the starter would do is spin without engaging. I found a blown fuse under the dashboard. I thought maybe since it set for a couple of months it could be a dirty connection. I checked all of them and since it is a 2000 motor everything was very clean. I also found a flat car fuse on the motor, this was ok.

I tried by- passing the cylinoid with jumper cables and the starter turned and engaged slowly.

The motor is a 115 Mercury which has been very dependable.

Is it possible that I burned up the cylinoid or something else? I am racking my brains with this. I hate to take to a marina and have them charge me $60.00 a hour just to change the cylinoid or something minor that I could do.

Any suggestions?

[Lunker]

sounds like you fried the cylanoid if you bypassed it and it turned over...cylanoids are easy enough to change go for it ! If worse comes to worse offer the mechanics a job on the side at home they often will jump at this like a monkey on a cupcake and youlle save some seriuos cash too ... dont forget the case of beer puts the icing on the cake sometimes.

[Shoeman]

I'm only a shade-tree mechanic, but I believe it wouldn't have made a difference anyway. If the starter worked, but didn't engage, it wouldn't be the solenoid. It sounds like a bendix problem to me. It may have ended up with some condensation and would have happened regardless.
I would disassemble the starter and clean the contacts and make sure the shaft travels freely.
Ah spring. I hate those "maiden voyages"

[Erik]

The very first thing I recamend checking before anything else is the battery. I know it probably doesn't make sense but a low battery can cause the starter to spin but not engage. Shoemans right, the solenoid should be fine if the starter worked at all. And don't just put a test light on the battery and call it good. Your starter draws probably around two hundred amps. A test light less than half an amp. If you don't have access to a load tester or hydrometer you can try boosting the battery off of a known good battery or charger. Make sure the charger has boost capabilities though cause like I said, your starter draws around two hundred amps. A ten amp slow charger won't be enough to boost it. Also make sure the battery is full of water before you try charging it. If the battery is good, and the starter still won't engage, you can either buy a new starter or try fixing the original. I'll bet the problem is a weak battery though. I've seen it happen alot.
Good luck!

[kingfisher 11]

I checked the battery and even put the charger on it again. I also tried another one of my new batteries. I even cleaned the connections and post again even though I don't think they needed it. I even tired running jumpers from the extra battery to the one in my boat and it still turned over the same.
All my batteries were stored indoors with a full charge once I put my boat away.

It seems funny that the starter gear will spin and yet the shaft won't engage until I Bypass the cylinoid. Then it turns over real slow.
I hate to tear the starter apart until I know that is what needs to be rebuilt. Have you taken something apart and found out later that was not it, then you have problems with that? That is my luck!

Keep the ideas coming, I appreciate it.

Bob

[Erik]

Don't tear the starter apart. Your motor is only a two years old. You said everything is clean so corrosion shouldn't be the issue. I'm still not totally convinced the problem isn't with the battery. Wish you had a load tester, or hydrometer then we could know for sure whether the battery is full or not. If you have a dead cell in the battery even jumping it probably won't help. The reason I'm saying this, is because the motor should turn over good when you bypass the solenoid. Since it doesn't, it makes me think the battery is weak. Does the motor turn over good by hand? How are you bypassing the solenoid? Are you using good heavy cables? The starter is going to need two hundred amps approximately. That calls for good heavy cables, not just jumper wires. If theres that much amperage available at the starter and it still doesn't turn over good, then it needs a starter, or your motor is bound up for one reason or another. Beyond that I don't know what else I can tell you. With out looking at it, I'm just making guesses and assuming your not over looking something.
Hope you get it figured out!

[Erik]

One more thing I should mention. With all this jumping and bypassing and stuff. Make sure you don't hold power to long to the starter. If it isn't turning over you can burn the armature contacts. Then no matter what you'll need a new starter when your done.

[kingfisher 11]

I have been real careful to not overdo anything. Everything has just been short quick checks. Trying the ole process of elimination.

The boat and motor are treated like my baby, it is only 2 years old. Ask my wife, she has to park outside the garage so my boat can be there.

[Lunker]

Did you hook the batter to start on your charger? all your batteries could be low if you havent charged them since last fall.

[kingfisher 11]

Lunker I did try that also. Thanks for your suggestion.

Eliminate the battery factor, left the charger on it all night and tried to start it connected.

I may replace the cylinoid if its not to expensive. If that is not it at least I will have a backup.

[riverrat1]

I've had the same problem with my motor. I just sprayed the shaft and gear with WD40 and work the gear and it would brake loose and engage. You might want to give it atry before you tear it apart and start spending money. JACK

[Hotwired]

Kingfisher,
I had a similar problem with my 30hp.
Check the underside of the flywheel for a bad spot.
It seemed my flywheel stops at 2 different spots and one was bad and when I would turn it over it seemed like it would just spin and not engage. If I turned the flywheel by hand to the good spot it would engage. Finally had the flywheel replaced at Carl's and was told to hit the starter shaft with WD40 ocassionally to keep out condinsation. This will prevent it from sticking and ensure a proper engage.
Hope this helps.
Hotwired

[STONE FLY]

i know how stupid doing that feels,i did it once too going out at night,in a hurry.when i hit the key,it melted a post right off . i think the only real problem was i had to replace the switch that contols bat1,bat2,both.if i recall i trashed both batteries,but its been over 20 yrs.sounds like your starter problem is a seperate problem.if it cranks slow,its drawing to many amps,if its spinning fast,wont engage,sounds like the bendix.i agree too,sounds like a batt problem.they can cause very weird stuff to happen(like power some things and not others)you really need a good tester to check each cell.your motor is new,but you could have bad parts.i`ve had a couple diff motor starters rebuilt( around 100.00) but allways old.good luck, let us know what it was.....

[STONE FLY]

p.s. if it has a silanoid(starter relay) thats a cheap part,just replace it for peace of mind

[Erik]

Kingfisher, please don't get mad at me, I'm just trying to keep you from buying a bunch of parts you don't need. Take the battery thats in your boat out and take it down to a reputable repair shop and have them load test it. It shouldn't cost you much. They may even do it for free. When your done, if it passes the test you can come back here and tell me how stupid I am. It won't bother me, I've been called worse:) I have a feeling your battery has a shorted cell. If thats the case, jump starting, and charging won't accomplish didley. You could also test it yourself with a hydrometer if it has removable vents. (it should if it's a deep cycle) You can buy a battery hydrometer for less than five dollars at meijers. I recamend the glass ones, they are much more accurate than the cheap plastic ones. Testing is simple, remove the vents (where safety glasses) Dip the end of the hydrometer in below the water line and suck fluid till the bulb floats and see where the water/acid line is on the bulb. Do this for all six cells. ALL cells should read within 10 degres of each other. If you have several cells in the green, and one in the red,(1275, and 1100 on the hydrometer scale) You have a junk battery. If all the cells read 1275, you have a good battery that is 100% charged. If all the cells read 1100 you may have a junk battery, or it may just need to be charged. The key word here is "all". All cells must be very nearly the same! Otherwise your battery is toast.
I know your probably readin this and scratching your head as to why I am so stupid and I just won't leave this battery thing alone, but I have gone through the service manuels and asked all my mechanic friends and they all agree it sounds like a bad battery. If the solenoid was bad it wouldn't even spin the starter. The starter could be bad, but since the motor is only two years old I really doubt that is the problem. Make sure it turns over easily by hand as there could also be something binding up the motor.
Like I said, please don't get mad at me! I'm just trying to help! I've been down this road before, and not just once!

[kingfisher 11]

I guess I must clarify this a little better. I have four deep cycle batteries. Two are only six months old and the others are 2 years old. I have tried all of these batteries. The same thing happens.

I still think it is something real simple, that is why I have asked for suggestions. I was hoping someone would say did you check that hidden fuse over there. My father in law thinks it has too be something simple also. He though that if the starter turns over by the key then it is not the cylinoid.

I have seen this happen and all the work turns out to be a dirty cable or bad battery. Sounds like I am not the only one who has had that happen before. That is why I tried cleaning everything and changing batteries.

Since the cold snap I have lots of time to check things over without rushing into anything. You can bet I will do more checking before I buy anything.

Thanks again for the suggestions.

Bob

[WALLEYE MIKE]

Did you check the fuse on the engine. I have a 125 hp. There is a couple of fuses there. My was kind of hidden. Mine were found inside of what looked like a black plug with wires going in and coming out . Follow especially a red wire which is what I did to find the fuse. Hope this might help.

[kingfisher 11]

Hey Mike, I did find that fuse. It is a flat car style fuse, I think 25 amp. You would think if it was something like a fuse nothing would work. Sure sounds like a battery problem but its not. I did find a fuse I blew under the dash.

[STONE FLY]

if you can jump the starter and it works good, then its not the starter.its in the ignition system.if you can get a tester to check how many amps its drawing you will know for sure if its the starter.my johnson wouldnt start even though it cranked over. it did seen to wear down the battery faster than normal.it was drawing too many amps, not turning fast enough.a rebuild made it like new for starting.if your gonna work on your motor it would be wise to buy a repair service manual.another idea is to go somewhere where they service your type of motor, and aske to speak tp a mech., and bleed him for info.you never said what kind of motor you had.it sounds like your on top of the batt situation.as far as secret fuses,the manual will have a wiring diagram and show every fuse you have......just trying to help

[STONE FLY]

can you pull start it? that would rule out many things

[kingfisher 11]

I was able to turn the motor over when I bypassed everything and ran the cables to the starter. I will give this a try though.

Seems like it is possible that something in the ignition could have fried with what happened. The motor is a 2000 mercury 115 hp. I have considered buying a manual just to have. I went to the place I bought it from hoping to pick the mechanics brain. They are closed until Feb. 11.

Thanks

[STONE FLY]

check for fusable links too. these are less obvious to spot,it will look like a small lump in the wire and can be tested with a continuity tester

[STONE FLY]

i had a 90 merc 6 cly, no pull starting that beast.i had that started rebuilt also.if it turns too slow it wont start.

[ESOX]

Kingfisher11 said-"I tried by- passing the cylinoid with jumper cables and the starter turned and engaged slowly."
Shoeman said-"It sounds like a bendix problem to me. It may have ended up with some condensation and would have happened regardless.
I would disassemble the starter and clean the contacts and make sure the shaft travels freely."
Have you tried this yet?????????

[Erik]

kingfisher,
the hidden fuse your looking for you already found. I'm looking at the service manuel for a 98 30 horse mercury with console ignition. I'm sure yours is the same or very nearly the same. There is a fuse between the starter sol, and the ignition. This fuse protects the entire system from you hooking up the battery backwards. Even if you tried to crank it, it would blow the fuse (as long as it's the proper size fuse) before you could damage anything.
Have you compleatly installed these other batteries, or have you just hooked it up with jumpers, or have you just tried jumping the first battery? I don't care if all the batteries you have are only six monthes old. Do any of them pass a load test? When you come back here and tell me you have tested the battery correctly and that it will hold within 10% of it's rated cranking capacity for 15 seconds with out dropping below 9.6 volts then I will rule out the battery. Until then I can't go any further with helping. I'm begging you, pretty please get the battery tested. If the battery is good the problem is in the starter.
Just a note. starters for boat motors are not like the ones on your car. They use centrifugal force to engage the drive mechanism. If the starter doesn't turn over at the correct speed the drive will not engage. Yes, the drive can fail due to dirt, maybe a mouse nest, etc... If the battery passes a load test, then I would look at the starter. But not until I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the battery is indeed good!

[STONE FLY]

i agree fully with the battery theory. i`ve seen it too many times.

[kingfisher 11]

OK guys you really got me thinking. I got my work clothes on and went out to the garage. I even called my automobile mechanic, he said cylinoid, because of what I described.

I started looking for plugs and wires and simple things again to do with the battery.

Are you guys ready for this? It was as simple as I thought. I had found that during my drive to storage I must have shuffled some wires around(battery all ready disconnected). Some how one of the ground cables had slipped back under the boat. When I was suppose to be putting two ground wires on. I was only connecting one. I was worrried it was something simple. Can you imagine taking it to a dealer and them charging $60 to tell me that? Or worse case senario, them changing lots of parts and charging a big bill and then finding this out.

Makes me feel a whole lot better, this motor was brand new and spotless.

So after all the suggestions, with the info I gave you guys. You could have all been correct.
Any of you guys looking to go do some Salmon fishing this year let me know, my boat is ready!
Thanks
Bob King

[WALLEYE MIKE]

Allllaluuuuhhaaaa!!!!!

[STONE FLY]

ahhhhhhh, forgot to check the chicken coupe before going on the wolf hunt......lol. well thats cool,none the less,the batt (s) that were hooked up wrong need to have all the cells checked.

[Erik]

Glad you got it fixed kingfisher! A bad ground will do it every time:) Now get out there and go fishing!