Winter camping gear?

[The Nailer]

I'm not sure this post belongs here, if it doesn't I apologize.

Although I have camped in snow for over for over 30 years it has always been w/i sight of my truck. This year a few of us are getting together and are going to try and hike into the back of my property and set up. Bringing w/ us all that is needed to survive three days. This first trip will be close enough to my camp so if there is a problem we can return there and be in relative comfort.

My question is what is essential and what isn't. We will be towing a tobbogan as opposed to backpacking only because of cost. I don't want to run out and buy a pack that I may never use again. I have, however, purchased a new tent this past weekend. It's a Kelty Mantra 2 and is a 3 season convertible, meaning it can be used moderately in four seasons w/ a light snow load. I have a very good bag, even though it's not designed for backpacking as it weighs 18#'s. What I need to know is what are all the little things that are needed that will either make us comfortable or absolutely miserable if we don't have them.

I'm really looking forward to this trip as a new adventure plus it gives me an excuse to buy some new gear. It's also a test, as I've always wanted to backpack in for a late fall bow hunt w/ my son in the UP.

I welcome all suggestions on what is absolutely necessary and what is absolutely not!

Thanks,
Nailer

[Steve]

You probably don't need the best sleeping bag ever made to get you through as long as you double bag it and or take some extra blankets and put a few of those disposable hand warmers in the bag with you. Some things to look for would be a tapered bottom where your feet go so they don't have to heat un-needed space and a draw-string top (kind of a mummy bag). You don't have to pay top dollar for one of these.

The most important thing by far is this: Whatever you do, completely change all of your clothes all the way down to and including your underwear before retiring. This may seem like it will be unpleasant to do so, but you will be much warmer throughout the night if you do.

[Mptycreel]

When we camped while elk hunting out west, one great thing was a folding cot. We used the old army ones you can get anywhere, and they allowed us to store our stuff under our bed, opening up more space in the tent. It was nice to get off the cold ground too. I would make sure that the feet of the cot won't tear the floor of your new tent though.
Good Luck

[Aspen Hill Adventures]

Keep some dry firewood/kindling on hand so you'll be able to warm up. Insulate yourself from the ground when you are sleeping, the cold does creep through your bag if you don't. I double bag too, a mummy type inside a oversize flannel lined bag, works good. Getting up in the morning is the hardest part.

The tent should be fine as long as you don't get a lot of snow.

[Steve]

Hay on top of the snow or frozen ground is also a big plus.

[Crowblaster]

Well, you certainly bought one of the best tents money can buy. Extra dry socks are a plus. Dry kindling is a must have fer emergencies. Pack #0000 steel wool to start an easy fire. It burns very hot when blowing on it, if yer kindling is damp, and is super lightweight. Consider a sleeping matt. They are real leightweight but bulky and are a great barrier between yer bag and the ground.

I always make sure I have all of the above and a couple of flashlights and a lantern.

[The Nailer]

I have all of the hard camping gear, lanterns, gas stoves, chairs etc. but they won't work on this trip. This would be like a backpack trip. So I'm trying to decide which items work best. Like candle lanterns or small gas, which packable stoves work best, how do you transport water and how much do you need, etc.

The tent is a small 2 person so a cot is out as is the hay due weight. We are only taking in what we can carry in one trip as if we were in the boonies.

I've downloaded a few check lists from different web sites re; winter backpacking, but was hoping for some practical hands on experience from those that have done it. I tend to take three times what I need whenever I go anywhere so this is becoming an excercise in moderation. There were a couple of homemade alcohol stove plans I found, but I don't know if they work or not. I also found a homemade sled design.

I got lucky on the tent. I was at Bass Pro Saturday to get my grandson a pair of boots and they were clearing them out at 33% off.

Thanks for what has been offered so far and keep'm coming. You've already given me some ideas on what is needed. I want to put my own equipment list together based on what others (you all) have used and found to work well.

[Airoh]

The best lightweight stove I ever came up with was three aluminum nails that you put gutters on your house with. I drove them in the ground and put a can of sterno in the middle. I then put some corrugated cardboard around the outside of the nails to trap the heat and eliminate any breeze on the sterno. Light your sterno then put your pot of water or whatever on the heads of the nails and voila, hot food and coffee!

I've never camped in the winter but I would think getting off the ground would really help the weekend go a lot better.

Here is cool pepsi can stove option the uses alcoholhttp://www.pcthiker.com/pages/gear/pepsistove.shtml

[Airoh]

Try this link

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/rshealer/gear/biyg.htm

[Steve]

I wouldn't advocate any fire in the tent. I think you'd be very happy with what just a couple large disposible heat pads would do to help inside a sleeping bag.

[The Nailer]

Airoh, That's a pretty cool site, thank you! I've done a lot of winter camping and for the most part I know what it takes, what I don't know YET is what it would take w/o a truck full of equipment.

Steve, Amen to the fire in the tent!!! A few years ago at a deer camp w/ my nephews and their brother-in-law they were in a nylon tent w/ a Mr. Heater. The brother-in-law woke at about 3:00 am thinking he was dreaming and seeing a halo surrounding the stars and and the moon. He wasn't, it was the blue flame of the nylon that was the halo and he WAS seeing the moon and stars. It made for a very cold remainder of the week w/ a 3' diameter hole overhead.

The chemical heat packs work great and I buy them in bulk before each deer season. It's amazing what just one will do in the bottom of a bag at night.

[Crowblaster]

Nailer....I found a book yesterday that pertains to your question..well sorta...it is a great read. The title is "Danger Stalks the Land" by Larry Kaniut. It costs $15 and is about Alaskan tales of Death and Survival. There are about 40 true stories in it collected by the author. Everything from Camping, hiking, Mountain Climbing, Fishing and Hunting accidents that lead to death or serious injury. It is an awesome, if not graphic at times, read. When Ir ead some of the things in it I sometimes think "that was only common sense" but to be honest I might have done some of the same things. It'll make you think about what you are doing when in the "wild". If nothing else, it'll keep you busy at camp when there's nothing to do.

[RUPP]

Nailer,

A few years ago, back in Colorado, a buddy and I decided we'd have a little adventure. We wondered how ice fishing would be on a high mountain lake. In the summer we'd always catch quite a few nice cutthroats out of Waterdog Lake on Monarch Pass so we decided to try it in the winter.

After telling everyone our plans we set off. We snowshoed up to the lake. I remember the trail and the area looking so much different covered in snow. The trip is only a mile long, but it is very steep. Probably close to 1,200 vertical feet in less than a mile. We packed in everything we thought we'd need, including small shovels and an ice auger. We both are experienced backpackers but had never done anything like this in the winter. We ended up with packs of about 50 pounds apiece for just one night. Not too bad really. There was about 4 feet of snow which made the snowshoes necessary. After the hike to the lake we started on our home for the night; a snowcave. It was real nice and comfortable actually. We made it plenty big for the two of us. We set a tarp down on the floor and on top of that our foam sleeping pads and then our bags. Apart from getting out of the bags in the morning and my buddy's yellow Lab sleeping on me, it was quite comfortable.

We had a small, white gas, pack stove and pack mess kit for cooking and melting snow. A few Ramen Noodles packets, lots of jerky and snacks and a few cans of peaches. There was plenty of fresh trout the next day which we simply cooked with some butter and garlic salt.

Staying dry was the important thing. Hope you have a good time on your adventure. It's always fun to really "rough it" once in a while.

RUPP

[Banditto]

In the movie Jeremia Johnson with Robert Redford he was about to be hit by a killer storm. Before the storm came an old mountain man stopped by to show Jeremia how to survive a bad storm.

He made a huge fire on the ground, thawed the ground under the fire, dug the dirt that was thawed, then made another fire in the new hole, and buried the fresh embers a few inches under the dirt. Then he took a heavy horse blanket and laid it on top of the snow. Every few hours dig the dirt up and refresh the embers.

This is also in my scout book. We camp a lot in snow.

As for what you'll need. A wind break like a tarp would be helpful. Double bag your sleeping bag, and sleep in your underwear only--don't sleep in cloths! No joke...

[The Nailer]

Banditto,
Being that that's one of my favorite movies of all time, and having seen it thirteen million times, I also remember he caught fire in the middle of the night. That may be a good idea for emergencies, but it's way more work then my ambition will allow for:) But, the double bag idea is a good one.

[Banditto]

Ya catching on fire would be pretty uncomfortable. If you do ever get 1st degree burns and can't find ice or a hospital right away use liquid hand soap. Apply the soap and let it dry. By the time it dries the pain from the burn will be gone. (old boy scout here).

Back to your camping... The biggest thing you during mealtime will need is a wind break. So make your camp in a low area out of the wing and maybe supplement with a large tarp. Because even though you guys will be moving most of the day or covered up in your tents, when you make meals and such you will be out in the open.

[Magnet]

Nailer, me and a few of my buddies have done several trips to N. Manitou Island for the special deer hunt. We always go on the last possible hunt, which is usually the first week of November. We have experienced all kinds of weather including snow storms. One year we packed in during a snow storm and 7 days later packed out in a blizzard. We have always done the 7 day deal, since the scheduled hunts are only 5 days long. Pack in the day before and pack out the day after.

Anyways, our first trip there was definitly the worst. Since then we have been on a continuous improvement plan. A Thermarest (self inflating mat) is lightweight and offers insulation between you and the ground. We use down filled mummy bags. Not the lightest, but very effective. Sleep in your skivvies. If you were to seriously get into this type of camping, you would be required to spend some cash. Backpacks are best. A small gas stove (backpack style) is good and you will need extra fuel bottles. we use small candle lanterns for light. These are the small spring loaded ones that last a long time. It sounds like you have the right tent. We all have our own tents and are pretty self reliant on ourselves. We take water purifier pumps with us for water. If there is alot of snow, you can melt it and boil it instead (but watch your fuel supply). Fuel may not be as important for you, but on N. Manitou, fires are not aloud. For food we take Ramon noodles and rice and canned meat, such as Spam, Tuna fish, Corned beef, etc. Also gravy mixes. You can get pretty creative with that stuff. Cook the noodles, add rice for consistancy, flavor with some gravy mix. When you are happy with that, add the meat. One of our favorites is "Tuna-Pork-a-roni". It may not sound good, but if you're hungry.... Tea bags and coffee bags are good things. A granola bar for breakfast always hits the spot. For personal hygeine we use these pouches that contain a big "moist towellette". The ones we get are "Hunter's Oderless Body Towels". Anyways, they come in sealed envelopes (one per envelope). At night when you retire to your mummy bag, you put a couple of these in there with you and sleep with them under your back. When you wake up in the morning they will be nice and warm from your body heat. Open one at a time and wash up right in your sleeping bag.

We've seen some pretty weird setups that people have taken to the island and most are limited as to how far they get on the island because they try to bring way to much stuff. We have a stratagy when we go, "If you definately need it, bring it. If you might need it, leave it at home." Our packs end up weighing about 65 to 70 pounds each, including rifle, tent, bag, food, stove, fuel, 1 change of clothes and the small essentials. Yes, I did say one change of clothes. 2 pairs of wool socks will go along way in seven days. We've gone so far as to cut the handles down on our toothbrushes and drill holes in what is left of them to eliminate excess weight. I'm sure you get the picture.

Anyways, I am by no means an "expert" at this, but if you have any questions, I will try to help.

Magnet:)

[The Nailer]

A chance to have fried Spam now I know I'm going to enjoy this:D

Magnet - Yea, I know this is going to cost a few bucks, but I'm not going too overboard at first, just the basics. If I see this could become a regular thing then I'll invest in the backpack and a good mummy bag. I am having fun researching all of the various things online though. I 've got the Thermarest and candle lantern so far, next is the gas stove and a cookset.

I've looked at those gas stoves in catalogues and online, but I'm confused re: the fuel canisters. Are these just containers you pour the fuel in then pump like an old Coleman stove? And if that's the case what size or how many would you typically use in a three day outing?

Have you had any trouble w/ the water purifiers in cold weather or below freezing weather? I've heard some become totaly non-functional and others don't work as well when cold. But I don't know which works best.

That Manitou Island trip sounds like fun, but I don't know how you get by w/ one change of clothes!

Thanks for the tips and keep'em coming, I'm making a list so I can take the pilgrimage to Cabela's in a couple of weeks. Actually I'll be at the Cabela's in Kearney, NE in two weeks when I go goose hunting, but I'll have too much to carry already w/o adding to it.

[Magnet]

Hey Nailer,

You're asking the right questions.

As far as the stove goes, I have a coleman in which you just dump gas into the base (tank) and pump like a lantern. They have made improvements to the stoves since I purchased mine several years ago. If you are looking at the small ones with the red tanks (bottles), (I think coleman's line of these are called "whisper light" stoves), then yes, the bottle doubles as the tank. The bottle screws onto the pump mechanism. The bottles are made of alluminum and are light weight. These are the same bottles that we use to carry our spare fuel. I can get by for the seven day trip with a full stove and two extra 32 ounce bottles of fuel (unleaded gas). Try to stay away from the propane or butane stoves. They work better in warm weather, but when it gets below freezing, the generators (orifice) can freeze up rendering them useless.

As for the water purifiers, you are absolutely right. They will freeze up and be useless. It's definately better to use them when the temp is above freezing. Once they are froze it is difficult to thaw them again. I take two dromedary bags with me. One for filtered water and one for unfiltered water. My tent has an enclosed vestibule which has a dirt floor and is sealed from the outdoors. I sit in my tent, with the door from the tent to the vestibule open, and cook in the vestibule. This is when I usually pump my water. The stove usually heats up the tent enough so that the filter works properly. It is important to pump all the water out of the filter after each use to help prevent freezing. If the filter freezes, the only good option is to use purifying tablets and boil the water. This can make the water taste bad. I have gone so far as to sleep with my filter in my sleeping bag. My dromadary bags hold 2 1/2 gallons each. I can usually get by on 5 gallons of water for the 7 day deal. I'm not sure if any particular brand of filter is better than another. When you start talking about filters that filter down to .02 microns, I think they would all freeze about the same. At Manitou, the freeze problem isn't usually real serious, as the temperature is generally above freezing during the day (although there have been years....)

Magnet:)

[The Nailer]

Magnet - Thanks for the tips they're most appreciated

[Mark st.]

This isn’t just for you Nailer, but for everyone.
Fire can be your best friend, or worst enemy.
We’ll concentrate on the friend part now.
Many years ago now I went through survival training in the Air Force. Having been an outdoorsman all of my life, I thought there would be little about surviving the elements that I didn’t already know. Proved me wrong, they did.
One of our requirements was to build a fire with a flame knee high in less than 5 minutes, in any type of weather. This included gathering the wood without the aid of an ax or saw.
Pine trees are the key, fortunately we have plenty of them here in Michigan.
Pine burns fast and hot with relatively little smoke.
The lower branches of a pine are usually dead and dry, gather as many as possible.
Now start breaking up the branches and sorting them as you go. Small twigs in one pile, finger size in another, larger sticks in a third and the largest in yet another.
The smallest twigs will light up with an ordinary kitchen match, but a cotton ball aids the process.
I think everyone knows what to do from here.
It is fast and easy. A good thing to know should you take an unexpected ice water bath or your buddy decides today would be a good day to try out that hypothermia thing.
I recommend everyone practice this on your next adventure to the wild, it could save your life.

[Magnet]

Good point Mark st.

Another good fire starter that can be found in Michigan woods, although not as abundant as pine, is the bark from a Birch tree. Birch bark contains a natural oil that ignites easily and stays lit for a decent period of time. Believe it or not, even wet Birch bark will easily ignite. I am not an advocate of going into the woods and peeling the bark from any birch tree you might stumble acrossed, but give it a try sometime if the opportunity arrises. You will be surprised as to how well it works.

Magnet:)

[answerguy8]

"Double bag your sleeping bag, and sleep in your underwear only--don't sleep in cloths! No joke..."

Somebody has been reading George Herter's book I'll bet!

[Banditto]

Eagle Scout.

[Steve]

Magnet, if I'm not mistaken I think peeling the bark off a birch in MI is illegal.

[Magnet]

Steve, I really have no idea about the legality of it, but if it came down to me or the tree, I'd pick me.
Magnet:)

[The Nailer]

Mark st. & Magnet, Both good tips and I just happen to have plenty of both species on my property. May make good practice.

I read or saw a special some time back on how quickly hypothermia sets in especially if you get wet. Building a fire becomes very difficult due to loss of small motor skills. It was chilling (no pun intended) how quickly you can die.

[answerguy8]

Originally posted by Banditto
Eagle Scout.
He also mentioned he will be on his own property, and of course he can do anything he wants to his own trees.

[Banditto]

Well not only that, but birch as a whole is not the healthiest trees on the planet. If you find one, you can probably find one nearby laying on the ground.

You guys remember the storm of the century where those scouts were trapped in upper state NY? A tire is fairly easy to light, makes good smoke, and burns for at least 20-24 hours.

But as far as other warm gear, I like those chemical boot warmers. They only last 12 hours, but man do they take the edge off.

Another tip for Nailer, a sled can carry an awful lot of gear out there.

[David G Duncan]

Nailer,

Great posting! Roughing it is real adventure in the winter, but I am sure you will totally enjoy yourself.

I have tent camped for over a week at a time during my trapping adventures, so my advice comes from real life experience.

Buy the best mattress possible! I recommend the Thermorest! This is absolutely critical, if you are going to sleep warm.

The second most desirable item is one of those sleeping bag covers that are water proof on the bottom and breathable on top. One large enough to allow you to insert the Thermorest inside. Now this is going to sound crazy, but I can stake my life on the effectiveness of what I am going to suggest next.

Use a good mummy type sleeping bag. Unzip it all the way to foot and place in the sleeping bag cover on top of the Thermorest mattress. Then take your clothes off and slide in on top of the mattress with your feet tucked into the foot of the mummy bag. Yes, sleep directly on top of the mattress with all the unzipped bag only on top and to the sides of you.

The advantages are: 1. All the insulation quality of the bag are put to good advantage. If you sleep with the bag under you the loft is completely compressed and all the insulation is lost. 2. You have alot of room to roll over without getting tangled up in the bag. 3. You don't need to bring any extra blankets.

Try it, it really works.

[The Nailer]

Trapper Dave,

That's a thought. I know when you lay on the bag you lose the insulating qualities from the bottom. In fact I was cruising Cabela's site and saw that they have bags that have down on top and a synthetic on the bottom that doesn't lose all of it's insulating qualities when compressed. So I know your idea has merit. I already bought the thermorest and a closed cell pad to go under it. Now I just have to find a cover to fit over my bag, but that may be a problem. The one I have is not designed for backpacking and is huge. Any suggestions on where to look for bag covers?

Although we're not going till the end of February I make take a shake down trip by self in the next couple of weeks. All of my winter tent camping to this point has been w/i sight of my truck. I've been out when it's been in the -20's for a couple of days, but never back in away from everything except what you carried in.

[David G Duncan]

Nailer,

The sleeping bag cover I use came from Eddie Bauer, but I have had it for over 20 years. I know what you mean about trying to find a good light weight bag covers, because I have been looking to replace mine. My is blaze orange in color and very light weight, which makes it ideal for backpacking. I think it is ripstop nylon. It has a hood with draw strings. It is still in fairly good condition, so in reality it will probably will out last me.

Like you I have tested my equipment at -25 deg., just to prove I could sleep comfortable. I like to wear a good stocking hat (or a heavy hood sweat shirt), rather to confine myself to the built-in hood on the sleeping bag, even then I still tuck the sleeping bag hood over my head. Also, when packing limits are not a big problem, I bring my pillow, which really helps to seal out the cold around your shoulders.

Boy it is fun waking up to a tent full of frost, after a snug winter nap
:D

[The Nailer]

Trapper Dave,

I found the bag covers on line at Campmor. I'm afraid Ol' Eddie ain't what he used to be. He only had somewhat pricey and in my opinion less than high quality clothing. I miss the old store like it was 15-20 years ago. I still have a down parka that I bought there back in '85. Unfortuneatly I long ago grew out of it and now my wife uses it as a smoking jacket in the garage and on her once a year snowshoe excursion. Since were dragging sleds I may use your pillow tip as well. By the way the picture was great, that's what winter camp is all about, SNOW!