Now it's our turn

[marty]

Ok deer hunters in the NELP . Here's a email from Rep Joel Sheltrown. Time to get a hold of these guys and let them know what we think as well;)

Dear Marty:

Thank you for your e-mail. I understand the impact of the DNR's policies on local small businesses. That's what's driving the deer petitions. I'm sorry I couldn't attend the meeting in Alpena last week. I had session in Lansing that day. Regarding crossbows, I am a co-sponsor of HB 4942 that would expand the use of crossbows for hunting in Michigan. The bill, unfortunately, is stalled due to opposition from the DNR and the Michigan Bowhunters Association. Thanks for the support for our efforts to restore the deer population.

Sincerely,

Rep. Joel Sheltrown


We need to get more into the heads of our reps. Look up their emails or use the phone but it's time. A couple guys that hit the meeting have suggested that the meeting in Alpena was nothing more than a smoke screen. Another few suggested a boston tea party:lol: kind of thing but who knows. It will be interesting to see what the DNR comes up with this year..:rolleyes:

BTW " Due to opposition" Thanks a lot MBH:rant:
M:confused:

[boehr]

The bill, unfortunately, is stalled due to opposition from the DNR and the Michigan Bowhunters Association.As I stated before, I don't care either way but.....:lol: Gosh, last time I checked the DNR nor the Michigan Bow Hunters could vote in the legislature so it must be some legislators against the bill. Also the NRC that voted against it last time because it does not take legislative action until someone wants politics to get involved in the resources. Seems funny the reference the legislator made towards small business, I thought mangement was suppose to be for the resource, not if someone could or could not make a profit.:yikes:

[woodsrat]

As I stated before, I don't care either way but.....:lol: Gosh, last time I checked the DNR nor the Michigan Bow Hunters could vote in the legislature so it must be some legislators against the bill. Also the NRC that voted against it last time because it does not take legislative action until someone wants politics to get involved in the resources. Seems funny the reference the legislator made towards small business, I thought mangement was suppose to be for the resource, not if someone could or could not make a profit.:yikes:

I think alot of the public's frustration comes into play when they feel negative consequences of a state departments ability to make administrative rules (laws). Americans don't like it when laws are "passed" without the consent of congress. Most people don't know there is a prescribed method for challenging those administrative rules in congress.

Please don't cite the statutes giving the department those rule making abilities. I am more than familiar with them.

[marty]

As I stated before, I don't care either way but.....:lol: Gosh, last time I checked the DNR nor the Michigan Bow Hunters could vote in the legislature so it must be some legislators against the bill. Also the NRC that voted against it last time because it does not take legislative action until someone wants politics to get involved in the resources. Seems funny the reference the legislator made towards small business, I thought mangement was suppose to be for the resource, not if someone could or could not make a profit.:yikes:

It goes around for all. Hunters want to see deer if they don't they either hunt out of state or hunt in areas where they can. So take away the salmon fisheries as well. Well guess what all of the suddenly the DNR is out selling cookies at wally world. What I'm saying is that it's time for us as hunters to get involved with our reps.Let then know we're not happy campers.:rant:

btw Mangement for the resource and not making a profit maybe that's what the DNR is doing wrong:lol: Up here we call it our livlehood but if a few places go belly up who really cares:sad:

Somenody got a choke hold on that bill somewhere and somehow I'd sure like to know. Does MBH have someones ear?? Again I don't know but it seems like why would he mention it??.....M:mad:

[Splitshot]

If yow think legislators will make better decisions than professionals within the DNR you are not thinking clearly.

Before you start requesting help, why don't you explain what your trying to achieve.

[William H Bonney]

[QUOTE=Splitshot]If yaw think legislators will make better decisions than professionals within the DNR you are not thinking clearly.

QUOTE]
Hmmmmm,,, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a clear-cut winner of the "bad decision" making contest.

[boehr]

I think alot of the public's frustration comes into play when they feel negative consequences of a state departments ability to make administrative rules (laws). Americans don't like it when laws are "passed" without the consent of congress. Most people don't know there is a prescribed method for challenging those administrative rules in congress.

Please don't cite the statutes giving the department those rule making abilities. I am more than familiar with them.:lol: Congress doesn't have anything to do with hunting deer in Michigan or crossbows.:lol: Also crossbows have nothing to do with Administrative Rules. The legislature is still involved with Administrative Rules. I won't cite what does have to do with what we are talking about but feel free to review them......:lol:

[GVDocHoliday]

THE LAST THING WE NEED IS FOR LEGISLATURES TO START MAKING MANAGMENT DECISIONS!!!!:rant: :rant:

[FYRE926]

Let's get on it men!!

If you don't have the contact info.....here's 2 links to use. Let's start rattling some legislative cages!

http://house.michigan.gov/find_a_rep.asp

http://senate.michigan.gov/SenatorInfo/find-your-senator.htm

:cool:

[farmlegend]

When hunters begin to whine to legislators about the lack of deer, I wonder how this looks...to the 93% of Michiganders that don't buy deer tags?

On second thought, no, I don't wonder. It makes hunter look like selfish A-holes, healthy ecosystems be damned, just gimme some hooved targets to shoot at.

I can't think of a more effective way to destroy sport hunting than for hunters to shirk their role as resource managers, thereby leaving that task to others to accomplish it some other way.

[Neal]

Let's get on it men!!

If you don't have the contact info.....here's 2 links to use. Let's start rattling some legislative cages!
[

If expansion means into archery season.....you bet I'll rattling some cages...against!!

If it mean to lessen the restriction to the disabled or elderly.....I'll consider that.

[FYRE926]

If expansion means into archery season.....you bet I'll rattling some cages...against!!

If it mean to lessen the restriction to the disabled or elderly.....I'll consider that.


Neal,

What is your concern with allowing use of a crossbow during archery season? I'm not trying to goad you or antagonize you, I guess I really don't understand the resistance..

Let me share with you my background also I'm not a political person by any stretch...

I obtained a crossbow permit I believe in 1994 or 95' after I had bone cancer & had to have the upper bone in my right arm replaced with bone from a donor. Since then that bone fractured & had to be replaced and now it has totally disinegrated. I cannot hold anything out further than 10" from my chest or put any pressure on it for a sustained period. I researched this thoroughly back then and I saw & read about multiple methods used by those with much worse issue like no limb at all in order to shoot a bow. That doesn't change the fact that I or anyone else should have the right to hunt with a crossbow. The weapon is perfectly capable of killing a deer and no one would dispute it. However, like ANY weapon if it's used in a manner which lessens it's killing power it can result in severe wounds to an animal & surely extended discomfort before death. Back then I called & wrote all different contacts in government and finally got told by a chairman on a committee in a Lansing that it simply wasn't going to make it out of committee thus no vote. I was disheartened to say the least, I had a brand new compound bow I couldn't shoot (given to me for christmas 6 months before I was diagnosed). Then out of the blue the next spring I hear they were issuing crossbow permits. I jumped at the chance & my Orthopedic Oncologist gladly signed my request. Why is it that many "traditional bowhunters" are against the crossbow, do they fear they'll be over run with wack jobs with these mid-evil weapons? What's the threat here? It's not like they look down south & see a hoard across the border in Ohio just slobering to cross over & harvest the whitetail into extinction because they've hunted all of their's out...And who are we to tell anyone else they can't do something if it's not infringing on their rights and it's not harming society? :coolgleam

[Neal]

I cannot hold anything out further than 10" from my chest or put any pressure on it for a sustained period.

Short answer for tonite:

I think the 80% Disabled aspect needs to be changed to a physical need that prevents someone from pulling a standard bow.

That doesn't change the fact that I or anyone else should have the right to hunt with a crossbow

First of all you do, well not a right, but the opportunity. My reasonings against the usage of crossbows will have to wait until tommorrow, unless you want to do a search of these forums......trust me there's plenty there;)

Side note:

BTW " Due to opposition" Thanks a lot MBH


How is letting more hunters in October and early November, with more effective weapons, going to help your deer population numbers?

[Hamilton Reef]

Neal, I also have a crossbow permit and again not by choice. I'm having a very hard time doing much of any hunting. I do have the crank to help. I actually don't like using the crossbow as it is heavy, clumsy, noisy, etc., so I haven't bothered to shoot anything with it. Now that I've actually got a crossbow I understand how much of the hype pro and con is exaggerated.

[Tedd]

Pal, listen to me...

As I posted in response to your thread in "General Michigan Hunting", I think you have the issues confused. If you wish to debate that crossbows should be allowed during the regular archery season, that is one platform for discussion. Gotta warn ya, bro; it'll raise some stink!

If you are attempting to leverage the "persons with disabilities" thing into a reason to allow crossbows during the regular crossbow season, it is a weak case. Frankly, you have to do better than; " I use one, therefore, everybody should be allowed to use one" approach. Even I, a solid proponent of crossbow use, agree that yours is an untenable position. You have to do better at trying to get everybody to join your cause than starting a thread "join me brethren" ("now its our turn"). Why? 'Cuz some of 'em aint brethren and "our" doesn't mean "my". Building consensus starts with facts and numbers, not hyperbole.

In case you haven't seen it, here's my post from the other thread:

Whoa nelly there..I think you're taking the thread in an entirely different direction. What we've been discussing here is the disparity and difficulty that certain people with disabilities have in obtaining a permit to take game with a crossbow. The central point here is that some people are genuinly unable to pull a vertical bow however, they do not meet the stringent criteria currently set forth by the state of Michigan in obtaining same.

We are NOT argueing the merits of a crossbow versus other hunting weapons. To do so will open an entirely new, and entirely larger can of worms. It will also cause this ery worthwhile and needed thread to be closed in no-time flat.

While there are many adamant and vocal opponents to expanded crossbow use from certain portions of the hunting community, I'm sure 100% of them support its use in disability situations.

Again, the problem remains that some people unable to pull a verticle bow can not obtain a crossbow permit because the criteria is too stringent. For those people, regrettably, the answer appears to be summed up in four words; "tuff luck" or, "doctor shopping".

Suggest that if you desire to start a thread on the merits of crossbows during the regular archery season you so a simple search and put on some body armor. There are probabaly 1 gazillion of them already, all closed by a moderator.
images/buttons/edit.gif (http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1070149)

[victor mi pro bowhunter]

:lol: Congress doesn't have anything to do with hunting deer in Michigan or crossbows.:lol: Also crossbows have nothing to do with Administrative Rules. The legislature is still involved with Administrative Rules. I won't cite what does have to do with what we are talking about but feel free to review them......:lol:
:yeahthat:

[2-BIG]

If expansion means into archery season.....you bet I'll rattling some cages...against!!

If it mean to lessen the restriction to the disabled or elderly.....I'll consider that.
:yeahthat:

[marty]

When hunters begin to whine to legislators about the lack of deer, I wonder how this looks...to the 93% of Michiganders that don't buy deer tags?

On second thought, no, I don't wonder. It makes hunter look like selfish A-holes, healthy ecosystems be damned, just gimme some hooved targets to shoot at.

I can't think of a more effective way to destroy sport hunting than for hunters to shirk their role as resource managers, thereby leaving that task to others to accomplish it some other way.

How about when some of them 93% don't hunt but depend on that 7% of hunters to help them make a living.

Yea from the man from deerville USA.

Destroy sport hunting hey guess what it's already happening right before your eyes ..............m

[marty]

If yow think legislators will make better decisions than professionals within the DNR you are not thinking clearly.

Before you start requesting help, why don't you explain what your trying to achieve.

Professionals they same ones that stated that " they don't always get it right professionals:yikes:


My point is it's time we get our reps involves with our hunting. Like it or not it's already happening but it not just the issue of lack of deer but it plays a bit into it. My concern is for a lot of places that don't even hunt are being hurt by lack of deer/fish.

There's already outside influences that get the DNR by the farm lobby. If we are suppose to have things done by professional why should they have any say into what goes on. I just think we should put a bug in our local reps ear and let then know all is not well in the world:sad:

Dismiss any crossbow debate and sorry. That was a private matter with Rep Sheltron and myself:D .......m;)

[riverman]

There's already outside influences that get the DNR by the farm lobby. If we are suppose to have things done by professional why should they have any say into what goes on.
;)

I will never understand why you people feel the farmers in this state should feed this herd and not have any input. Ask Ed Spin why he took 120 deer off his farm in one season. If the shoe was on the other foot and your pay check was reduced by 1% to feed this herd you'd scream to the high heavens.

[marty]

I will never understand why you people feel the farmers in this state should feed this herd and not have any input. Ask Ed Spin why he took 120 deer off his farm in one season. If the shoe was on the other foot and your pay check was reduced by 1% to feed this herd you'd scream to the high heavens.

The shoe is on the other foot now and think of 50-75% for numbers. I don't mean to slam the farmers but they do have input. I just think it's time for all to get a piece of the pie Maybe we can all come down to ed spins:evil: and help him with that nasty deer problem:lol: .......m;)

[GVDocHoliday]

I've said it once and I'll say it again, :rant: THE LAST THING WE WANT IS FOR LEGISLATURES TO START MAKING MANAGEMENT DECISIONS THROUGH POLITICS!!!:rant:

Politics got involved with the Dove hunt and we saw how succesful that became. It's amazing how everyone still feels that deer hunting is a right. It's far from it. It's a dang good privilage. Same with having Federal lands, State Lands, and the ability to fish open waters. Every single management decision made by the DNR and the Forest Service are made with a specific purpose in mind. They have to follow the guidelines of Multiple Use and Sustained Yield management which allowes for recreational, aesthetic, and commercial uses of our forests. Once you allow individuals to push bills that involves management of our natural resources then that all goes to hell.

This is a very very baaaaad idea. Allowing it...pushing for it....that would be very stupid...and you can't cure stupid.

[marty]

I've said it once and I'll say it again, :rant: THE LAST THING WE WANT IS FOR LEGISLATURES TO START MAKING MANAGEMENT DECISIONS THROUGH POLITICS!!!:rant:



This is a very very baaaaad idea. Allowing it...pushing for it....that would be very stupid...and you can't cure stupid.


It's already here my man. Open your eyes take the blinders off. Ask around and do a little digging Politics are here. You dont understand:yikes: . It's time to get into the heads of the reps. How do you think the anti's are able to put so much presuure on hunting. They get a hold of reps and say we don't like it and bingo there goes that hunt.

What's a baaaaaad idea is sitting on your butt and hoping all will be okay in your little world but it won'.t Not doing anything in your words is very stupid:rant:

That's what the reps are for. and politics are making choices in the mangement of wildlife here in our state. Don't believe it ask around.:rolleyes:

Remember a thing called G well that was about politics. It's.:evil: r the old wheel/grease thing I'm just looking for some grease.........m;)

[GVDocHoliday]

People seem to feel that the anti's get sooo much support from legislatures. You also fail to realize that the DNR get's only 10% of it's funding from the general fund. The rest comes from license sales. 90% of the budget comes from license sales to be approximate. The DNR is already short changed and they need money, legislators know this because they're really all about money. With our states current budget, it's only a matter of time before they start siphering money from license sales into other programs like education or welfare. If anything they'll be forced to offer more hunting opportunities for us in order to keep programs afloat.

Besides, I think the DNR is doing a fine job as it is.

[Whit1]

Can someone explain to me what this thread is about?...........the short version!.........:lol:

[boehr]

Crossbows, deer and politics. Doesn't get any shorter.:lol:

[Tedd]

and bait

[Swamp Monster]

Don't forget small business subsidy's (sp) in small northern towns!

[marty]

Can someone explain to me what this thread is about?...........the short version!.........:lol:

Whit it's about putting a bug in our reps ear. . That's it and what swamp said. about small business hurting up here. I hope friends of mine don't go under but things look bleak for them..........m:sad:

[Splitshot]

Whit,

I asked earlier too I don't know if it's a Crossbow issue or he wants to change some game laws so his friends will get more business.

[marty]

Whit,

I asked earlier too I don't know if it's a Crossbow issue or he wants to change some game laws so his friends will get more business.

Yea I'll relay this info to my friends who has a chance of loosing their business. So nice you support us with such outstanding ideas:yikes: ....m:mad:

[Splitshot]

Sorry Marty,

I still don't know what kind of help you are asking for or what your reason is.

If you think that some game laws should be changed or modified to help local business I'm against it. Our wildlife should be managed to benefit the wildlife. If someone has to go out of business as a result, I feel for them, but we must do what is right for all citizens.

You can pass that along too!

[2-BIG]

Sorry Marty,

I still don't know what kind of help you are asking for or what your reason is.

If you think that some game laws should be changed or modified to help local business I'm against it. Our wildlife should be managed to benefit the wildlife. If someone has to go out of business as a result, I feel for them, but we must do what is right for all citizens.

You can pass that along too!
I think he is intentionally being vague. I don't know if he's upset about friends going out of business(carrot sales? crossbow sales?..??) or wants a particular law or laws changed? Tip toeing around the subject just makes people more skeptical.:dizzy: