The future of MI WDM??

[Ferg]

Read this post from a member across the pond about how hunting is in the EU:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belbriette
Trophy Specialist,

To answer your request, roughly :
Kindly forgive my awkwardness with your language : I read it rather well but it is another story to write it ...

- Almost all the forested land is owned by township or by the State.
- Many but very small private properties and big game hunting is not allowed if less than 50 ha (roughly less than 100 + acres).
- No such thing as open public land hunting : hunting rights on all public forests are leased through public auctions every 9 or 12 years.
- Roughly, individual areas covered range from 400 to 1500 ha.
- 4 species : red deer, roe deer, chamois and wildboar.
- Every year, an official commission headed by a State representative and composed of foresters, hunting administration, farmers, hunters and ecologists, establishes the mini / maxi number of animals of each species which can be killed for each individual territory. All animals shot must be tagged on the spot and there is a mandatory presentation to an accredited administration agent within 24 hours.The mini is mandatory.
- For deer, if density is at goal and if the sex ratio is fairly close to 1/1, the basis of these quotas is 1/3 fawn (unsexed), 1/3 older females and 1/3 older males.
- Stalking and high seat hunting is allowed from june 1st to the end of january. February may be added if density is considered too high (forest damages) and if the needed mini quotas are not reached by the end of January.
- The majority of the animals are shot through beats with small hounds like fox terriers or teckels. These collective hunts take place from the end of september to the end of january.
- In some territories, in order to promote selective shooting, stags and roe bucks can only be shot through individual hunting (stalking and from high seats).
- Bow hunting is legal but very uncommon.

That should give you a fairly good general idea of the big game hunting context in France as well as in Europe as a whole.

Jack

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I sure hope everyone read this!

Because if we don't stop urban sprawl - then, there WILL come a time when all the land that is forrested is owned by the state/fed and we too shall hunt like Jack releates above -

READ AND HEED -

ferg....

Thanks for the insight Jack - and TS for asking - good posts.
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Is this where we'll be in another 100 years or so ? I hope not -

ferg....

[Luv2hunteup]

It sounds like a great way to reduce hunting pressure. :lol:

[GRUNDY]

Welcome to the future of hunting. I'm 27 and would not be suprised at all to see this kind of hunting in my lifetime. Urban sprawl is out of control! Just drive around the Chicago area, ie Hoffman estates, and north. I think Barry Patch is from Chicago I bet he can elaborate. All I can say is everytime I get out that way I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the rate at which land is turned form countryside to Urbanside in less than one year.

We had a German exchange student when I was young. In Germany you had to pass an extensive test to get a hunting license, which included being able to identify trees and plants, and all kinds of other stuff that most hunters in the states don't even pay attention to when out in the woods. Obtaining the license is also very expensive.

Brian

[Belbriette]

> Luv2huntteup,

It does not reduce hunting pressure, because of the cost of hunting, most likely it reduces the number of hunters and increases the average age of hunters ... especially on the best territories ... (see below)

> Grundy

- I believe everywhere in Europe, you have to pass an exam to gain the right to hunt. This exam deals with a good knowledge of the wild species and management as well as with safety and your efficiency to use a weapon.
The German exam is most likely the most difficult.

- In France, and elsewhere, you have to take a hunting permit every year. Its cost is used for taxes, to pay for crop damages to farmers and to support hunting organizations represntative of hunters interests.
Hence its cost varies according to where you intend to hunt.
For instance, last year, in France :
- - to hunt rather locally, in my region, around 180 US dollars.
- - to hunt anywhere in France, around 380 dollars.

- You are then left to find someone who will invite you to hunt on a territory where he is a "shareholder", or to pay for one "share" yourself ...
Of course the cost of a share depends upon the area, the overall quality of the territory (density and species involved), as well as from the number of shareholders ... It necessarily varies quite a lot ... It is an euphemism ...

From the single standpoint of available hunting possibilities, I do not think any comparison is possible between Europe and your Country.
I will search to find the last available statistics about big game harvest in France and will enter them here.
At first sight, my estimate is that about the same number of big game animals are shot over the whole Country as are shot in MI alone ... for around 1,5 million hunters, all of whom do not hunt big game.

Without being conscious of it, you really are spoiled hunters ...
As a result, it is very, very, difficult for me to understand why some of you "fight" about the very cheap cost of hunting in your Country ... which is the richest in the World ...

Around only sixty years ago, it was here possible for an individual to rent a hunting right and make a small profit out of it ... This gold era has long passed away ...

Be sure to do the best you can in the coming years ... ;)

Your's friendly,
Jack

[farmlegend]

As a result, it is very, very, difficult for me to understand why some of you "fight" about the very cheap cost of hunting in your Country ... which is the richest in the World

Difficult for me to understand too, Jack!

Probably human nature; we have a hard time truly appreciating blessings we have(whatever they may be), and tend to take them for granted. Indeed, hunting privileges are dirt cheap here; compared to many other recreational hobbies, hunting is relatively inexpensive.

Unfortunately, since most of our state conservation departments receive a substantial portion of their funding from license fees, the game management function is easily corrupted.

[GRUNDY]

I'll second what FL said.

[One Eye]

Sounds pretty close to the system we have now. Stay tuned, as it will not be getting better!

dan

[Belbriette]

As announced above, some more data about big game hunting in France :

1. : for 2004 / 2005 hunting season, both sexes and all ages,

- Global roe deer allocations 561 655, harvested 503 089
- Global red deer allocations 54 007, harvested 39 968
- Chamois, no available statistic : comparatively small harvest
- Wildboars harvested 433 578 (*)

2. (*)

Wildboars populations increased very seriously in the last 20 years (much feeding by hunters ...) : they cause severe agricultural damages. Considered as nuisance, no allocation, they may be shot freely, except when the damages they cause are much too heavy in which case hunters have to use tags which cost around 35 US dollars.

3.

- Hunters pay around 28 millions dollars a year for big game crop damages to farmers (up to now, forestry damages by cervids are not paid for but I am afraid this situation will not last for ever ...)
- Wildboars are responsible for 70% of the damages, 30% by cervids.
- The cost of these damages is covered by taxes from hunting permits and by the costs of the delivered cervids tags, which vary quite a lot depending upon damages which occur in different locations, depending upon the use of the land (forestry or farming) and upon density, for instance :
a) Red deer : very roughly from 100 US dollars up to 600 ...
b) Roe deer : " " around 30 US dollars
c) In the most north eastern part of the Country ("Alsace"), another special legislation : at the lowest State administrative level (= "Département"), every year, all hunting territories pay a special taxes by ha (1 ha = a little more than 2 acres). As a result the costs of the different tags are very much lower, around 10 US dollars ... however, no miracle ... the area taxes are very high ... agricultural damages are to be paid for, one way or another ... !!!

Any question will be welcome, I will do my best to answer.

According to dictionaries hunting relates "To search, pursue and capture".

In my opinion, as long as the first TWO parameters are not satisfied, no one may say he is hunting ...
Always in my opinion, this is the first reason why,
- a density well below the biological carrying capacity of the land,
- which does not endanger at all an "Optimum and Durable Conservation" of the hunted species,
are so decisive for the future of Wildlife and of Hunting ...

To end with, a quote from Aldo Leopold :
" We shall never achieve harmony with land, any more than we shall achieve absolute justice or liberty for people. In these higher aspirations the important thing is not to achieve, but to strive."

Keep "striving" with lucidness ;)

:) Friendly yours,
Jack

[GRUNDY]

Belbriette,

Very interesting info. How I understand it is that hunters pay the farmers for crop damage via taxes in the license fees? Have hunters adopted this policy or are they mandated by the government to pay these crop damages. I think it is interesting that hunters and hunting are held directly responsible for the proper managemant of the game.

One other thing I have always been curious about is, how hunters are percieved to the average non hunter in France? I have a feeling that hunters here in the states have a bit of a "bubba" mantra about them due to how we are portrayed on hunting shows and of course some of our field conduct.

Are hunters in France seen as upstanding citizens who are good stewards of the land

Brian

[Whit1]

>Without being conscious of it, you really are spoiled hunters ...
As a result, it is very, very, difficult for me to understand why some of you "fight" about the very cheap cost of hunting in your Country ... which is the richest in the World ...



Some words of wisdom from across the pond!

Jack,
Would you like to come over here and help us hit some of the complainers with a large 2 x 4? :lol:

[Belbriette]

> Grundy,

- Of course ... hunters have to pay for agricultural damages by law, they did not require to do so ...

- I do not understand " bubba mantra" but from your last words, I think I got it : due to a lack of good information or even to misinformation, hunters are not well perceived by the general public.
- - The vast majority of citizens wishes to enjoy a totally free access to the forest, anywhere, at anytime, without being at all conscious of its impact about "carrying capacity" and about an ever lasting wildlife conservation ...
Hunters activities and sensibility tend to oppose to this wish.
- - Due to our modern way of Life, this same majority has long lost of sight the concept of what has allowed our species to survive and to thrive, namely predation : people go to the "supermarket", they buy whatever meat they wish without asking themselves any question ...
- - Furthermore here, like in your State, in your Country as a whole and like over the whole Planet, "buck fever" and a general trophymania discredit hunters as stewards of the ressource ...
- - To end with, as a "short cut" the Walt Dysney "Bambi" syndrome ... !!!

Friendly yours,
Jack

[Belbriette]

> Whit 1 :

I cannot decipher the meaning of the last part of your post, that is to say :

Jack,
Would you like to come over here and help us hit some of the complainers with a large 2 x 4? :lol:

Please, kindly help me : I feel frustrated to be deprived of an enjoyable :lol: !!! ;)

Thanks !

Jack

[Ferg]

> Whit 1 :

I cannot decipher the meaning of the last part of your post, that is to say :

Jack,
Would you like to come over here and help us hit some of the complainers with a large 2 x 4? :lol:

Please, kindly help me : I feel frustrated to be deprived of an enjoyable :lol: !!! ;)

Thanks !

Jack

Jack -

Whit1 Wanted to know if you would come over here and beat some of our complainers up along side of their heads with a large, long 2 inch by 4 Inch board :)

ferg....

[Whit1]

Jack -

Whit1 Wanted to know if you would come over here and beat some of our complainers up along side of their heads with a large, long 2 inch by 4 Inch board :)

ferg....

That's what I meant. It is a form of American humor. I really don't mean for you to take it literally..........:lol:

[Tedd]

Very intersting thread.

Seems to me we have a parallel scenario going on right here; it's called Texas! Lot's of deer. Lot's of hunters. Virtually no public land.

Why is it that I never hear a lot of bellyaching coming out of Texas about nowhere to hunt and the costs being to high and/or the resource being managed poorly? I simply have not heard a syllable to the effect.

[Belbriette]

> Ferg,

Thank you !

> Whit1,

Of course, even if I had not deciphered it, I had understood it was a joke !

In my opinion and very unfortunately, after a very long experience, in far too many cases, this joke could also apply to hunters "education" ... :sad: :sad:
So, what is the best opportunity left to reach efficiently the goal of an "Optimal and Durable Conservation" of wild species ?
There must be one ... ;)

Friendly yours,
Jack