...Crabaples: Siberian, Zumi, Roselow, Sargeant, etc...

[fairfax1]

Will those in-the-know share some of their experiences with growing crabapples?

I see a large number of varieties...like those named above---Siberian, Zumi, Roselow, Sargeant, Midwest, etc.

What do you guys know about these varieties?
or, any others that you've had experience with?

BBTBob...I searched the forum and saw your post of buying several dozen of several varieties. How did it go?

I'm the South Central District. Soil is 7.1pH...deep bottomland loam, very rich, floods occasionally. I do have some higher ground that overlays a gravel vein about 10 to 12" down.

It seems to me, based on the very heavy-bearing ornamental crab outside my office window that crabapples are a boon to wildlife. Everything walking or flying eventually ends up under - or in - this tree.

[sandbur3]

I have two favorites. The chestnut crab has larger crabapple that is good eating and falls about the opener of our bow season. It is winter hardy and so far I have not had disease problems with many red cedars around it. It has been hard to find the last four or five years. If you find a source, please let me know.

Second choice is a wild crab that grows along our ditch banks. It tolerates a high water table, and cedars do not seem to bother it. It has one inch deep red fruit that fall about mid September. It is always full of tracks under it at fruit drop time. I have contacted our master gardeners in our state, they guess it may have some Siberian crab bloodlines in it. I need to contact extension and see what they know. One other fairly knowledgeable person, thinks it is a variety of the native prairie crab. I have seen it up and down ditch banks for three or four miles in our area. Any help would be appreciated.

These apples are doing well in the lower end of USDA ag zone 3. Used to be called 3b.

The chestnut crab has also done well in zone 3a. The fruit are slightly smaller on the lighter , northern soil.

[bishs]

I have planted 650 Zumi and Siberian crabapple over the last 10 years. I picked these varieties for their large size, heavy fruit bearers and fast growing. I have been very pleased, they grow well if a few "extras" are taken.

Use the wire tubes to protect them like I stated on another post. Spray, or mulch around the plant. I have also had real good luck planting them in the garden 6 inches apart, and mulch. Fence them in to keep rabbits away. Water them, and they will grow tall fast when planted this close, in a couple summers they will be 3 to 4 feet tall. Then transplant them.

Use latex paint, tree wrap or something around the trunks of young trees. Rabbits can't resist girdling the young trees.

They hold their fruit though the winter, its good for most wildlife. I wish some would drop their fruit during the fall for the deer. I watched deer stand up on their back legs picking off berries. They produce heavy crops.

[chasmo54]

Bishs, I two have been looking for a crab apple the drops it's apples instead of holding them all winter. I found one at Morse Nursery called I believe bunches yellow crab? Additionally sargent and roselow grow in a bush form the others are more of a tree form.

[halfczech]

Is there a variety of crab apple that would do well in heavy wet clay loom type of soil? By wet i do not mean standing water but it is a low area that holds moisture.

[chasmo54]

Is there a variety of crab apple that would do well in heavy wet clay loom type of soil? By wet i do not mean standing water but it is a low area that holds moisture.
You will need to find a nursery that will graft a crab apple tree on M-7 or M-111 rootstock. These rootstock will grow in the soil your describing. You can find regular apple trees on these rootstocks easily.

[fairfax1]

I intend to plant only a few trees...perhaps a half-dozen hybrid oaks, and hopefully, about a half-dozen crabapples. I'm currently favoring the varieties that Bish has described... Zumi & Siberians'.

With planting only a few I'm willing to pony-up and pay for container-plants....jiffy-plug or larger. Any suggestions on a source to buy such? I don't see either listed by Oikos or Morse.....and Coldstream, even though with a wide selection, appears to be just bare-root.

[sandbur3]

I read the chestnut crab has siberian crab as one of it's parents. It has about 2 inch apples that are dropped in late August and into Sept.

Interesting about the rootstock. I have had trees not do well in moist areas, but the wild crab apple grows best there. Wish I could get more of them. If I collect seed and plant them, will Ihave a variety different from the mother apple tree?

[chasmo54]

I intend to plant only a few trees...perhaps a half-dozen hybrid oaks, and hopefully, about a half-dozen crabapples. I'm currently favoring the varieties that Bish has described... Zumi & Siberians'.

With planting only a few I'm willing to pony-up and pay for container-plants....jiffy-plug or larger. Any suggestions on a source to buy such? I don't see either listed by Oikos or Morse.....and Coldstream, even though with a wide selection, appears to be just bare-root.
Morse Nursery is all container plants. No bareroot. I didn't see where they had Zumi or Siberian's but they did have hybrid oaks.

[bishs]

Fairfax, there is no reason to be afraid of planting bare root seedlings. Thousands and thousands are planted every year. Lack of moisture is the number one reason for seedling failure. If you mulch, spray or use plastic around the seedlings they will be fine. If you do not, and we get a dry summer potted and bareroot will have losses. Do you know that you can buy 10 or more bareroot trees for the price of one potted tree!

You can order 100, 1-2 foot Zumi crabapple for 35 dollars at Coldstream.


I have planted bareroot shrubs and trees every year but one, since 1994. The only heavy loss was the honeysuckle. They grow slow, are heavily browsed and I didn't do any weed control.

I have also planted 10 tree apple tree packet from Hill Top Orchards, along with a dozen other apple trees 4 foot tall, all bare root. I lost a couple a few years later from tent worms, and late frost. I mulch around my apple trees with straw.

Both my brothers purchased land last year, they both are using plastic on their seedlings. "Gregg" put 3 by 3 black plastic around 200 Norway spruce last year, planted in sod ground. He pinned down the corners with wire staples; that he made from welding wire. The trees went through last years dry spell in southern Michigan, He lossed 4 trees, because they were planted in areas that were too low, and they stood in water for a few days. His neighbor planted 100 Norways from the same order, and put them in his lawn next to my brother's place. He didn't do any weed control other than mowing and lost 30-40%.

RED OSIER DOGWOOD------------1430
SILKY DOGWOOD-----------------3870
GREY DOGWOOD------------------620
NORWAY SPRUCE------------------2395
WHITE SPRUCE-------------------700
AUTUMN OLIVE-------------------1000
HONEY SUCKLE -------------------900
RED OAK--------------------------75
WHITE OAK-----------------------75
PIN OAK--------------------------75
SAWTOOTH OAK------------------25
ZUMI CRABAPPLE------------------340
SIBERIAN CRABAPPLE--------------310
AMUR MAPLE----------------------50
BLACK CHERRY--------------------50
WASHINGTON HAWTHORNE-------150
CHINESE CHESTNUT---------------25
SPECKLED ALDER------------------390
NINEBARK-------------------------300
MT. ASH--------------------------125
HIGHBUSH CRANBERRY--------------200
WHITE PINE------------------------100

How much do you think this would of cost if they were potted?

If you want to baby them, stick them in a garden mulch and water them. If you plant them 6 inches apart they will grow to 3-4 feet tall in a few summers. :)

[chasmo54]

If you can afford containerized plants, they have many advantages over bare root. The two most important ones of many are that you can purchase containerized trees completely leafed out, proof that you are purchasing a healthy plant! Secondly, you skip the transplant shock sleep the first year, creep the second year, and leap the third year routine. Containerized plants leap the moment you plant them as they are not in shock from being up rooted.
These two advantages are why many people opt for containerized plants. Value for some are hundreds cheap while others such as myself see value in knowing the plant I purchase is alive and healthy to start with and expectations of results sooner.

[fairfax1]

First, Bish, I don'wanna even think how much all of your planting would've cost if they were container. But, you do have my interest tickled. I've been looking at the Coldstream website thinking that perhaps I could buy an assortment of crabs and put them into some biodegradeable container and temporarily plant 'em in the garden until 2007. The price is most right. ............I do enjoy your posts. You are the 'raise-the-bar' guy for these habitat forums.

Chasmo's posts are credible. I believe that containers would give me a head-start. And, with the few plantingsI'd like to do this spring I can pop for the cost of containers. I'll go that route for the handful of hybrid oaks I'll plant....either Morse or Oikos. Would like to see their operations first.

But, as I've posted above,I'm trying to find a reliable source for container crabs.

Also, looking for a couple of red mulberries and mountain ash. (I like birds almost as much as deer.)

Speaking of Mountain Ash..........again, looking for advice: I once had a beautiful M.A. in my yard that was Grand Central Station for the local bird population. It was an unbelievably heavy bearer. But, in a few short weeks it died from fire-blight.

So, now when I look at web-sites I see three different MA's offered: native, European, Korean. What's the difference? Is one more suitable for central Michigan than another? Are they all heavy yielders? Is one more resistant to fire blight than another?

Mucho gracias, Fx1

[chasmo54]

Fairfax1 & Bish1,
Here is an idea for you. Go to www.rootmaker.com (http://www.rootmaker.com/) these people have advanced the development of containers to the "next thing". Look at the root constricting in ground bags. Instead of planting your plants in the garden in sawdust only to rip them out of the ground when you want to move them, try this new science in containers.
The root constricting bags allow for easy harvesting of the tree later and the best part is that the root system inside the container is full of stored carbohydrates from being constricted. Once out of the container the root system will bust loose with a surge of growth. Science has advanced the century’s old practice of field grown seedlings. New and improved systems and technologies are being implemented every year. These are important advances and do represent change, something that is hard to do for many. Give this some serious consideration gentlemen, as I believe these advancements will one day obsolete the practice of field grown larger trees for sure and maybe seedlings.

[fairfax1]

I peeked at the 'rootmaker' site briefly. Looks really interesting and I'm looking forward to learning more about the product. It could be a 'right answer' product.

As I posted earlier, you do write credible stuff. I look for your posts.

Fx1

[chasmo54]

I peeked at the 'rootmaker' site briefly. Looks really interesting and I'm looking forward to learning more about the product. It could be a 'right answer' product.

As I posted earlier, you do write credible stuff. I look for your posts.

Fx1
Hey, it not easy being "the messenger" in a forum full of hunters if you know what I mean. :yikes:

[farmlegend]

When planting shrubs or hardwood trees, the only way I would plant bare-root stock were if I lived on the property and could afford the time to take the extra care necessary to protect and care for them. As noted, they are way cheaper than container plants.

FWIW, I've planted hundreds each of bare-root silky and gray dogwood, tatarian honeysuckle, nannyberry, highbush cranberry, and autumn olive. Weed control consisted of band-spraying at planting, and nothing else. Other than the autumn olive, the transplant success rate was poor.

[bishs]

"FWIW, I've planted hundreds each of bare-root silky and gray dogwood, tatarian honeysuckle, nannyberry, highbush cranberry, and autumn olive. Weed control consisted of band-spraying at planting, and nothing else. Other than the autumn olive, the transplant success rate was poor."

That may be a minimal weed control, but I believe over browsing was the bigger problem. As you are aware, other than the Autumn live, those other species are "deer candy". I see how much browsing effects my shrubs, and you have 2-3 times the deer I have. I don't think its feasible to grow these types of shrubs in areas with 20 or more deer a mile, unless they are protected with cages or tubes. Interesting enough, the deer on my place don't winter browse the silky dogwood very much, but will gorge on the new leaves in the spring. It realy seems to stunt them. I never realized how much they were effected, until I wrapped some silky dogwood with deer netting. That is when I realized that it can grow as fast as Autumn Olive. AA grows fast and is not bothered much by the deer.

That is why I am a big Norway and White spruce fan, no browsing. It takes a few years to get waist high, then they take off.

[Pinefarm]

Fairfax, to be honest, I don't know for sure. Over the years we've scattered around 1000 of all the different varieties and crossed our fingers. Some are growing in some places, but we also planted many of them in marginal soil/sand because it was open. So basically, we carpet bombed the whole property with some of all here and there and have had "fair" success. But someone planting them in good soil would probably do much better.