Deer Expectations

[boehr]

Many have stated that the herd is down because of many different reasons. Some of these reasons are shooting too many bucks being multiple antlered licenses, shooting to many antlerless deer being buttons and does and multiple antlerless permits. Some want fixes to this with some of those fixes being, one buck, smaller DMU's, QDM, MARS, and the list goes on.

The purpose of this poll is to discover two things. 1. When did you start hunting and does your expectations and total deer population result from what was when you started and 2. about hunter retention and getting new hunters.

I started hunting in the late 60's and early 70's. There were few deer in southern Michigan and went we went to the cottage in the thumb, you never seen deer. We would have never dreamed of hunting deer in the thumb. However, I learned and grew up hunting deer in the U.P. near Trout Lake. That is where my whole family deer hunted. We never filled all of our tags but about half of use did fill tags. When antlerless permits where issued up there we still didn't fill up. The deer hear was reported to be about 700,000 at that time.

[Pinefarm]

My first archery season was 1978 in northern Newaygo county. At that time, this area probably had the highest deer densities in the state. I believe a biologist told my dad that they thought there was roughly 70 deer per mile in our township in the early 1980's. The overall picture was lots and lots of deer sightings, but a very stressed herd with few bucks over 6pt's, many 3" or below spikes and no bucks had uniform racks. All were busted up and rounded off "retarded" racks. Winter die off's were common and sometimes severe. I believe it was after the Winter of 1979 or 1980 that we found over 50 starved deer on our property during the following Spring. Deer were often skin and bones even during the turkey season.
For deer sightings, if you didn't see at least 8-10 deer a day, something was very wrong. I recall a Nov. 30 where our collective camp deer sightings were over 100 deer seen. Of those 100, none were bucks. My personal highest sighting day was the firearms opener in 1989. I saw 67 deer and none were bucks.
Even so, we pressured our small bucks to the point where we nearly wiped them out every year. I never saw a buck with antlers that was still alive in January until around 1998. Our camp kill was an average of 10 bucks a season with a few that went as high as 18 bucks. We shot a doe or 2 every year because someone had had been drawn for a "doe" permit.

From all the old stories, around here in northern Newaygo, the 1950's and 1960's had lots of deer, then there was a "crash" in the late 1960's- early to mid-1970's, then the boom started again right around the time I started hunting.
Conversely, on our old family 40 acres in oakland county, which is dream deer habitat, we never saw a deer until the mid-1980's. Now it's polluted with deer.

Do I want to go back to those days at our deer camp? No. Everything was wrong about those days.

One more thing, the one buck rule is designed specifically to LOWER the antlerless herd in the SLP, not necessarily to protect bucks, which is merely a pleasant by-product.

[Joe Archer]

I started deer hunting in the 80's.
I realize that the deer numbers back then were just way to high. I have no expectations for herd numbers in Northern Michigan. However, my wish is for numbers to be high enough so that "0 for October" deer sightings on my property become a thing of the past. In a year with a huge acorn crop from my oaks, deer again were nearly extinct on my property.
I am not very concerned about hunter retention and gaining new hunters into the sport. Every youth hunter safety program that I have witnessed has been near capacity over the past seven years.
<----<<<

[Ferg]

I started in the late mid 60's on public land southwest of Hubbard Lake -

Our family // group // about 5/6 people on and off - used to put some in the apple tree at home - but 'rarely' did we tag out as a group, in fact I don't think we ever did in a single year. I remember when they started antlerless permits out there - I drew one in each of the first two years - didn't fill either one of them then.

I used to see more deer in MNF south of Cadillac, in fact I took my first deer there - and - the largest doe I have ever taken -

ferg....

[huntnbrush]

My first year of hunting was 1980 between Mio and Lewiston. We used to see a good amount of deer but very few bucks. Also, we would spend all summer checking out where the deer were traveling, eating and bedding then in Sept. the trucks would begin showing up loaded with sugar beets and carrots and completely change everything. Every time you found a good run, it would end up at a bait mountain. I now hunt behind my house in Jackson county so I guess I have been spoiled as far as knowing I would see deer almost every time out. I see as many deer as I did in the 80's but, I also see several big bucks over the course of the season. I like being spoiled!

[Trophy Specialist]

The poll forgot those that started in the 2000s.


(ModNote): Fixed it TS - go vote :))

[Luv2hunteup]

I started deer hunting in the late 60s. If you want to talk about low deer numbers look at the stats for those years. Lean is an understatement.

[fairfax1]

1963 for first time with a gun; then '67 with a bow. Haven't gun hunted for deer since '67.

But, to the point: Fortunately, I hunt in an area that has always...at least since the '60's.....supported a large deer population. It still does....60 head psqmi per the DNR. And I believe 'em. It is, of course, in the new center-of-gravity for the Michigan deer herd....the South Central District.

The herd though large today at 60 psqmi has been larger. If I've been informed correctly, a biologist once told a friend that the DNR thought 1987 was the peak in my townships & county. I do recall one winter in the early 70's when driving with my galpal and my Pop along a country road in early March....and we counted over 500 deer in two adjacent fields.

I can still see herds of 50 to 100 now in winter-wheat fields or in the cornfields that were harvested by the farmers with the oldest ...and least thorough combines.

But, don't get the wrong impression that these deer aren't hunted. In fact, in a 6 square-mile area where I focus most of my hunting the kill this year was over 220 deer.......close to 37 per sqmi. That compares to 21.3 in the county with the most killed per sqmi in 2004......Barry.

I saw a post in another thread recently where the poster seemingly derided as gullible anyone who believed a DNR population estimate that there were actually 40 deer living in any square mile of Michigan.

I had to smile at that one. In early January of this year I saw over 100 along a woodlot smack in the middle of this 6 sqmi where we killed nearly 37 in each mile.

If you don't mind, one more reminiscence: My Pop tells the story that shortly after the War ...'45 or '46.......an individual came into our little town and announced to someone that there was a deer standing in a field less than a mile outside of town. Whereupon, most of the merchants locked their doors...and customers in the taverns left their Stroh's ......and they all piled into cars to parade out to view this lonely deer. That's a favorite story around our deer camps.

Man, Boehr.......I didn't mean to go off there on your thread. I don't know if anything I posted helped you with your 'expectations' thesis.

[boehr]

I left out 2000's because in Michigan, a six year old can't hunt deer.

Liv2hunteup, I know what you mean as lean, I would hunt the whole second week and see two deer normally and both of those were does. Next year I plan on being up there again to hunt the area where I learned.

fairfax1, same thing use to happen in the thumb, people piling to see a deer, but it happened in the 60's and 70's.

[Liver and Onions]

Early-mid sixties. Few deer in our area(SLP) at the time. Nearly all deer hunters went north. We start putting in food plots around '66. Early 70's more deer, fewer guys going north. Late 70's, good deer numbers, more guys taking up bow hunting....compound bows. 80's & 90's great deer hunting. I would have never believed it as a kid. 2000's--hunting has gotten even better. My grandfater died in the late 40's when he was in his late 70's. My father believed that he never saw a deer in this county in his lifetime. This DMU now leads the DNR estimated yearly harvest.

L & O

[kstout]

I've hunted the same farm in SW Mecosta county since 1968, and believe there were more deer here then/than now. The population increased steadily til 1991. That year I video taped a 20 acre alfalfa field with 85 deer, 42 of which were antlered bucks during the 1st week of August. that same year I passed up 21 different bucks within shooting distance opening night of bow season. Since then the deer population has been greatly reduced. Now on the same farm, if we see 5 deer on any evening in august it is an exciting night. We have done a great deal of logging, planting deer food, etc. to improve the habitat, but I don't think the deer numbers will ever be as high as they were 15 years ago, and it is probably better/healthier for the deer.

[Nimrod1]

My first deer hunt was Thanksgiving weekend of '76. I saw 3 does, the other 3 guys saw a total of 2 does. That was pretty normal for the area of Roscommon county we were hunting. After that I was allowed to take off school for the openers. In a camp of 5 - 7 guys, most of the early years there was 1 maybe 2 bucks taken. When antlerless tags became available, the camp rule was to put in for 1, if drawn they were tossed into the fire the night before opener. Took me 13 years to tag my first deer. Once the skunk was out of the box, I started killing multiple bucks every year. Early '90s the pop. was really getting high. We actually had a year where there were 7 guys in camp for opening day, by the end of the third day we had 10 bucks hanging.

I started hunting my own place in Cheboygan county in 2000. At the old camp with about 5-6 guys, they might only see a total of 7 -10 deer during the first few days of gun. In Cheboygan the DNR density estimate is 12-15 dpsm. Reminds me a lot of my early days. Fortunatly the young bucks I now see, live to see another year, and there are a few older ones around.

[GRUNDY]

Started hunting deer in the early 90's. I can't give much of an opinion. I have never seen the deer that my friends have. Been Gun deer hunting Newaygo private land for 12 years now and the deer numbers have been declining ever since. This past fall it was VERY noticeable. Went form 15ish deer gun opener to 3, and there are no habitat changes or food source changes that could have made this difference.

Brian

[boehr]

Look again at how your poll is worded. Lots of hunters have come of hunting age in the 2000's.Yep, You're right, what was I thinking????;)

[Backwoods-Savage]

Started hunting in 50's. First was pheasants, then followed squirrels and rabbits. By then I felt I was ready for deer but they were few and far between in the lp. Almost everyone in our area who hunted deer went to the U.P. I also started hunting in the U.P. very soon after the bridge was opened for traffic. I-75 was only open in short stretches then.

The hunting in the central U.P. then was on the downslide and all the old timers were complaining because "it ain't like it used to be." I'll never forget my first year hunting up there. Two of us had our bucks hanging. One day everyone (about 6 or 8) was in camp except the two fellows who had already shot their bucks! Of course the game warden showed up, but he knew everyone there and just stopped to shoot the bull. Of course he looked at the bucks too. Let me add that back then you could also shoot a bear if you had a deer license. It was just so funny that the only ones who weren't in camp were the only successful hunters. Maybe something to that....

Started bow hunting in the early 60's. Again, there were very few deer compared to what there are today. However, the herd was growing and we usually saw deer, but not like today.

Today I am amazed at the numbers of deer (4 just went across our yard while I was typing this) and have been for several years. Just never thought I'd see the day we had so many deer. We are attempting to help the herd. During hard winters we drop soft maple so they have some browse. Our woods is getting mature in some areas and we're cutting. I'll drop more poplars this month and leave them because they help in making some cover for bedding. In short, we are doing what we can to help the herd stay healthy and stay in our area. Now if we could just convince more of our neighbors....

[dinoday]

I could almost take Bob's post word for word and make it my own! I started hunting northern Newyago Co. in 1988.
We would see easily 30+ deer per day, per hunter on state land and almost no bucks.
Opening day of 1990 I saw over 50 deer ,26 in one herd and not a horn on them.
In the first 5 years we hunted our group took one 6 point,multiple spikes and piles of does.In those day's if we didn't end opening weekend of bow season with at least a deer a piece it was practically a failure.
I started hunting southern in 1996 and have been taking bucks ever since.
My kids find it hard to belive when I tell them how many deer we used to see in a day,but as a lot of you know, it wasn't as great as it sounds;)
I hope we never go back to the way it was,the "glory day's" are still to come if you ask me.

[Brandon]

I've hunted north Ottawa/ Muskegon co since the 80's have seen good deer numbers until the last five years or so. Some big bucks and alot of small ones. I've also hunted the up during gun season and seen few deer although I've shot three buck all small since mid 80's. I think the deer numbers in my area is fair, and I don't have a complaint about the number i see. When I go out if I see a deer I feel it was a successful outing. Would just like to improve the number of mature bucks I see in my area.

[Sib]

1979 in the UP. It was rough, we were all greenhorns and no one in our camp had ever deer hunted before. We didn't have a mentor, we were all raw rookies and we didn't have a clue as to how little we knew. :lol: My friends father owned the property, wanted to start a camp and had never hunted himself, so he took a couple 16 yr olds up into the woods.

We saw deer, not a lot, but we saw some deer, so we figured we were doing something right, but what we couldn't have told you. :lol:

Through the eighties things were about the same and we all took some bucks, but never anything better than a 6 point. We learned much during that time, tho. Then the 90s came and the deer population really started to grow and our sightings were up. I had taken a number of 1.5 yr olds and I was ready to graduate and go up to the next level of hunting. I've only taken one deer under 8 points since '87, that was a 6 point with my bow in 2004. I had never shot a decent 6 pt up until that time and in 2004 I had a nice one come by, so I arrowed him for a skull mount.

I take does, pass on smaller bucks and have gone without bucks a few years, 2003 being a buckless year. The opportunity to hunt is the best thing and nice buck is a bonus.

My expectations have grown with my skill level, imo. I expect to see deer everytime I'm out and I expect to get a shot at an 8 or better at least every season. It's the way I hunt, if I don't have any faith in the area I'm hunting, I wouldn't be there. BUT, actually taking that nice buck doesn't have to happen in order to have a good season. I'm pretty much guaranteed venison because of antlerless permits. Stick to my standards and wait for the buck I want, doe(s) for the freezer when I'm buckless.

[devo024]

I started hunting in the 80's with my brother. My birthday is on opening day of gun season, and I used to love waiting for him to come home to see if he got me a "birthday present". It was in the mid 80's when I started to go out with him, we hunted public land at Rose Lake in mid-Michigan. I only went out with him 2 or 3 times, and saw 2 does one of those times. As I got a little older, I decided that I had better things to do than get up at 5am on my birthday so I quit hunting. In the poll, I voted that I started hunting in the 2000's, because this is when I started understanding about deer hunting. We now hunt private land in Oceana Co., and I would say the deer herd is different every year. Last year, I saw 1 doe. Thats it. The previous 3 years I got a doe within 2 hours of sitting in my blind for the first time of the year. This year, I saw more fawns than I have ever seen before. I saw buttons by themselves, does with 1 or 2 fawns with them, and a group of fawns (about 4 or 5) by themselves. I have seen 2 bucks the whole time hunting at my brothers, 1 spike with tines that must have been 12in and this year, at least a 4 pt. (was too dark to see, all I could see was antlers) I know that there are alot of people that know ALOT more than I do about hunting, but I think that the deer at my brothers are up one year and down the next. We try to practice QDM, the rule is nothing under an 8pt. but I wonder about the effectiveness of this when his neighbor will shoot anything that moves. One year while tracking a doe I shot, we talked to the neighbor to see how he did. He said something like....got a couple does, a couple spikes, a 4 pt, a 6pt. ect...... Makes me wonder why we even practice QDM. Chances are Im never gonna see a buck big enough to shoot there.

[Whit1]

My first deer hunt was in 1962 and we hunted in northern Lake County a few miles NE of where the Little Manistee R. crossed under M37. There were a lot of deer than, mostly does and fawns. In the two years that I hunted up there I only saw one buck.

In 1964 my dad and I began hunting in Mecosta County a few miles west of Stanwood, near Davis Bridge Rd. Deer were all over, mostly does and fawns. It was common to see 20-30 deer on Opening Day (Nov. 15th). We hunted there until the mid-70s when the new US131 expressway began to be constructed. The highway went through the farm property that we had permission to hunt on. I've killed deer what became both the north and southbound lanes of the highway.

As is usual after the first two days of the season deer sightings would diminish and we'd wonder where all the deer went. Back then, living in Grand Rapids, I didn't hunt much after the first two days of the rifle season.

We moved north in '72, but I still opened the season downstate in Mecosta County. Since about '75 I've hunted in Manistee County on state and private land, Oceana County at a great deer camp near Pine River High School and then mainly on private land here in NW Manistee County.

In all of these areas we saw deer with most being does and fawns.

My best deer hunting as far as taking bucks is concerned was from '92-'02. Beginning in '02 I began to see a greater preponderence of spike bucks rather than the usual 5-8 pointers that were the norm. Doe sightings continued to be about the same with some diminishing in numbers, but still I could and still can see 3-5 does and fawns on most hunts.

I think back to hunting in that area and how today, knowing what I know, I would hunt it differently.

Do my deer hunting expectations have their roots in what the herd and my hunting was like back in the early '60s when I started? Not in any way shape or form. I've grown as a hunter and a person in that time span for that to be true.

[Trophy Specialist]

When I first started hunting in the 1973 there were probably more deer in my home turf of Manistee County then than there are now. There were definitely more gun hunters in the 70s in that area, but there are ways more bow hunters there now. The quality of the deer herd (buck to doe ratio and deer sex ratios) is about the same. Where I hunted in the U.P. the herd is larger now but the quality was much better back in the 70s and early 80s and I consider those years the good old days for deer hunting in my experience. I racked up a half dozen big bucks in the first 8 years of my hunting career, but it took some very hard hunting to pull that off. Only in recent years, due to QDM, have I again been experiencing a quality deer herd in the U.P. In my opionion, a quality deer herd will attract and hold more new hunters than any other thing.

[Bushwhacker]

This could get long, but I'll give it a try, it's so long ago I can't remember all of it. Grew up on a farm in Barry county, and had a Daisy Red Rider at about age ten, which would be in the early 50's. Got my first gun, a single shot .22 at 14, but had been using my Dad's for squirrels before that. I still have a back tag for deer from 1958, whether that was my first license, I'm not sure. So I hunted small game and deer in Southern Michigan in the 50's. Back then there was hardly any bowhunting, we all thought anyone with a stick and string was nuts. There was also no "No Trespassing" signs, you could start hunting deer on your own farm in the morning and cross a bunch of neighbors farms and never see another hunter. Didn't get any bucks then, there were no doe tags, but sure ran a few to my Dad.:) The family had a camp on the Hiawatha Club near Engadine and I made my first trip up there for deer camp in 59, I can still remember what a thrill to hunt with my Dad, Grandpa, and Uncles. There seemed to be alot of deer there at that time, but that area was more open then and you could see for a long ways and count flags going through the meadows. Of course, there was no doe hunting, if you shot one you went to jail, as my uncle did once.
Then went to college at Michigan Tech and began hunting the Huron Mts. in 1962, got nice bucks there in 63 and 65, never saw that many deer there, maybe 4 or 5 in a week, but they were likely to be big bucks. Never hunted does as you still can't in that area. After college in 65, there was a thing called Nam going on, so I spent 5 years in the Corp and couldn't get deer hunting. Hunted in 70 in the Hurons, lots of snow and never saw a track, but it was great to be back.
Then in 71, moved to Canada and started hunting moose, and after a couple weeks hunting and guiding for moose, I really didn't feel like deer hunting, so I didn't deer hunt until 88 when my pardner talked me into going back to the Hurons, been going down there ever since. So I guess I have 50 years of hunting in. The changes? I guess alot more deer in Southern Michigan, but alot less land to hunt, I still try to hunt a few days over Thanksgiving in Barry Co., but can't hunt where I grew up as it's all leased, but usually see more deer in a day on State Land than we do all week in the UP. The UP is still about the same for deer numbers where we hunt as it was in 62, it varies by the harshness of the previous winters, but what has changed is the baiting, bear hunting, and bow hunting. None of these were done in the 60's. the baiting alters the deer movement patterns, and the bear hunters and bow hunters have the deer more alert than they used to be by Nov. 15. About the only ones that used to be hunting there before deer season, was us for a couple days grouse hunting and scouting in Oct.
So, I still think the deer hunting is great, and wouldn't miss it for anything. Dad is 83 and still goes every year, hopefully I will still be going at that age.
Sorry for the length of this.

Bushwhacker

[magnumhntr]

Lets see... I would've been 12 in '85, and dabled in bow hunting for a few years, but I don't consider that my begining, as I didn't really understand anything about deer hunting at that age. My father, who really didn't hunt much either, basically took me out on a couple warm October nights and just sat me on the edge of a field, without seeing a single deer.

When I was 14, I shot my first doe around cadillac on the second day of gun season, yet I still don't consider this when I really began hunting. I just went out and sat on a hill and shot the first deer I saw (had both antlerless and antlered tags. Still didn't understand the concept of hunting really. But I can say that year I saw over 100 does a day around the cadillac area, and not a single buck.

It wasn't until I hooked up with some friends in highschool that I would consider my forays into the woods to be considered hunting. Those guys are the ones that got me hooked on it. I don't know if it was the comoradery, or just the youth giving way to adulthood, but things started to feel right and make sense then. I actually understood things, and how to apply them in the woods. I looked at it as hunting, moreso than just killing a deer.

Fast forward to 1992, when I met my current hunting partner at work. We were friends freom the start, and from that moment on, I've been pretty hard core about hunting. I started noticing population trends in our areas, and what different crops planted in the area would mean for our hunting season, and how our kills the previous year(s) would impact the following year. Like the year 5 of us took 20 deer off my grandmas 100 acres, 15 of which were does. The next 2-3 years were slim picking for deer.

Anyway, sorry about the length. To sum it up, deer numbers in our area (Allegan Co) have stayed pretty consistent since about '92 when I actually payed attention to sightings. The only expectation I have for the deer herd is that the DNR makes thier decisions based on sound scientific management, not some smooze's political aspirations. If they feel the herd needs to be reduced in my area, I don't have a problem with that, as long as it's done to keep the deer at a population density that is in tune with what the land will support. I will not take part in any massive doe kill that has more to do with the wants and need of any special interest group, but am more than willing to help thin the herd down a bit to keep it in check.

As a side note, I think the DNR would gain a bit more credibility and backing from the hunters if they would come out with an end result goal. If people knew what the results of thier actions today would mean to the overall picture a few years down the road, I think the DNR would find it easier to get more people on board with thier agendas. As it is today, all people see is a DNR saying that there are too many deer, and they need to be lowered. Well, why? And what's in it for the guys who want to believe the DNR, but also want to know what the benefits are to following the DNR's directives.

Lastly, I would continue to deer hunt regardless of the population density. The one thing that has brought me and my father closer together has been hunting together these last 10 years or so. Funny how it was me who got him into it. Now I can't get him out of the woods. I wouldn't trade that for any amount of deer sightings ;)

[boehr]

As a result (only so far) I get these impressions from the poll and comments which follows what I have always believed was happening. The majority of hunters have started hunting when the deer populations have been at the highest. Second, even though the herd size was still high in the 90's, less people are show to be hunting and again in the 2000's.

I don't believe we can say any one factor is causing this trend. It is a bunch of factors.

The biggest factors in my own opinion are;
-Laws have become too complicated
-Urbanization
-Electronic age for young people
-Money, not cost but people just want more money for other things besides hunting
-The way hunters look towards the non-hunting public (not talking about antis). Non-hunting kids' opinions rub off on other kids.
-Antis, vocal at what is taught in schools, remember "Tracks Magazine" by MUCC?
-The greed by hunters themselves, they (we) all want it our way, can't ralley together for common goal.

Some factors do contribute but really have little to do with it, again in my opinion;
-Legal age of hunting
-Cost of licenses
-Older hunters have quit hunting sooner than in the past

[hunting man]

I was legal to rifle hunt deer in 1970. Before that when I found a deer track, near where the Dundee Cabelas store is now located, it was news and the farmers would ask me to show the tracks to them. I hunted when there just wasnt many deer to hunt. They lived in small pockets of the best cover. We started going to the Up first, then the NE lower for the 2 weeks of deer season in about '74. I have seen the deer numbers go up and down. I think of the deer herd of the NE TB hot zone as about the same as in the late 70's. It could hold a few more but I understand the r4asons why we knocked the numbers down. I used to see 60 to 100 on the opener. Now I might see that many for the 2 weeks of rifle season. We have adapted and move with the deer. We get a full buck pole each year doing this. The rookie CO thinks we are a "den of poachers" (told this to the neighbor friend) because we kill so many on the state land. We have a parade of trucks come by and stop to see what we have hanging each year now. It isnt easy now but the deer are better racked and the weights have increased. We used to get many scrub racks. Now they have branched antlers and even 3 in the top 20 all time for Montmorency county in the last 5 years.

[OSXer]

-Antis, vocal at what is taught in schools, remember "Tracks Magazine" by MUCC?
I had completely forgotten about that publication until now ... :(

I started hunting in 1998. Things remained close to the same or got slightly better for 3 years or so after that. Each year it seems I am able to spend more time afield than the past year, but things aren't ever looking more promising, and sometimes they almost seem worse. I'll always be a hunter, but things are a bit depressing sometimes when I look at the whole on a year to year basis.

[FREEPOP]

I remember when seeing a deer was a big story, early 70's in south Mich. I remember going north and shining after dark and drooling over the numbers of deer.
Do to lost private property this year, after 12 or so years, I may end up not hunting. Probably will still buy a license to give the state revenue, but options in Jackson County are limited and steep. I saw this coming and it's my fault for not being prepared. I can forsee my time in the woods, this year, will be but a very small fraction of what it used to be.
So from here, there may be a couple of "retired hunters" in the not so distant future.

[NorthJeff]

Interesting looking in the past to guage deer population trends. Something sticks out pretty good though in that when we had the most buck tags available, our deer herd grew the largest. The number of does we harvest and the quality of our habitat will always be the determining factor for overall population numbers, and that is greatly evidenced when examining history.

I actually left the excessively high deer numbers, by choice, to have 1/3 the number of deer per square mile...but many, many less hunters. I still don't regret it and there is often a balance between deer numbers, and number of hunters.

I love hunting the low deer number, high quality herds of northern PA public land, the moderate number high quality herd of the SW WI, and anywhere else quality herds are found, regardless of deer numbers. As I sit here in a sports cafe in northern PA, I am reminded of the 1 buck license they have out here, and the AR's that were the only way the hunters were able to reduce the yearling buck harvest, from 80%, down to 50% of the overall harvest. It also a vivid reminder that the number of buck tags do not dictate overall population numbers, but antlerless management, habitat, and winter severity are the controlling factors. At the same time, I am reminded of at least the large amounts of time we as MI sportsmen can take to the field, with multiple buck tags, and multiple seasons, as well as the economic impact to both the hunting industry, and MDNR....whether you agree with the current populations or not....at least we can experience a long season, quality or not.;)

[Pinefarm]

Jeff, to the contrary. One could argue that more buck tags for sale = larger herds because hunters aren't shooting does and less buck tags for sale = more balanced herds because hunters take more does.
You said so yourself..."when we had the most buck tags available, our deer herd grew the largest."
You perfectly make the point that many have been trying to make. There's a reason our herds grew so much in the 1980's. It was called "buck tag fever". ;)

[One Eye]

My first archery season was also 1978. I was 12 years old. I hunted mainly in Newaygo and Lake Counties. We regularly saw deer, but killing one was a different story :lol: The deer herd continued to climb in the 80s and technology advanced rapidly. Killing deer with archery equipment continued to get easier for me until the baiting explosion. I was able to hunt with a gun for the first time in 1980. We always saw deer, and we usualy filled about 50% of our tags. Now, it is a miracle to see "any" deer while rifle hunting on public land in these areas. I saw a lot more bucks (mature and immature) during the years when we had 4 buck tags, but a much more restricted anterless tag system. The number of deer I see has steadily decreased as the anterless kill strategy has gotten more and more agressive.

One more thing, the one buck rule is designed specifically to LOWER the antlerless herd in the SLP, not necessarily to protect bucks, which is merely a pleasant by-product.

In response to Bob's statement above, Mr. CLute and the other biologists will tell you that the "one-buck" strategy will actually have the opposite effect in the SLP. Many hunters will not go out in the woods deer hunting without some sort of a buck tag in their pocket. The DNR believes the one buck tag system will actually lower the anterless kill in the areas that need it. They also believe that this system will "not protect" bucks, as the same number of bucks will be taken.

Dan

[Pinefarm]

We'll see if the NRC and MDNR changes their tune by around May. ;)

[farmlegend]

In response to Bob's statement above, Mr. CLute and the other biologists will tell you that the "one-buck" strategy will actually have the opposite effect in the SLP. Many hunters will not go out in the woods deer hunting without some sort of a buck tag in their pocket. The DNR believes the one buck tag system will actually lower the anterless kill in the areas that need it. They also believe that this system will "not protect" bucks, as the same number of bucks will be taken.

Do they know this to be true, or are we seeing more of a rationalization of the combo tag?

As to the DNR wishing to make the case that hunters will not deer hunt without a buck tag in their pocket: if that is really true, then the department has truly failed in the area of leadership and education.

[Whit1]

Do they know this to be true, or are we seeing more of a rationalization of the combo tag?

As to the DNR wishing to make the case that hunters will not deer hunt without a buck tag in their pocket: if that is really true, then the department has truly failed in the area of leadership and education.


I tend to agree! While it may be true in too many cases, the "I want a buck" syndrome/mindset needs to change and the most effective way to do that is through leadership and education. IMO

[Tedd]

I started hunting deer with a bow in 1980 (never gun hunted prior either).

What prompted me into this sport was, starting at age 12, I was a pheasant hunter, along with with my father. For the next 18 years I hunted pheasant exclusively when a strange thing happened: the pheasants started disapprearing and I saw more and more deer while hunting pheasants that simply were no long there. Finally, in 1979 after flushing (not shooting) only one solitary bird during the entire season, I said "that's it" and threw in the towel.

Quite literally, I said to one of my pheasant hunting pals, "let's do bowhunting; all you do is sit in a tree and the deer come to you.". Not a bad proposition after all the frustration of pheasant hunting over the final 10 years or so. Thus, it was off to an Archery pro shop in West Bloomfield (Detroit Archers) where we both purchased our first stuff and practiced like there was no tomorrow. Still, it was 3 years before I took my first deer. Not because deer were scarse, but because it took that long to finally put all the pieces of the puzzle together. To illustrate, on our very first bow hunt together in 1980, we actually "walked" a hayfield side by side hoping to "flush" a deer.

During the next decade, the deer herd definately increased in our area several fold. Today, deer are not as plentiful as the late 80's/early 90's, but, being older and having taken 30 or so deer, all with a bow or crossbow, I'm not so much in a hurry to take one any more. I like the sleeping in part, the big breakfast part, the afternoon hunt part, the card games at night part and drinking lots of beer part just as much.

[NorthJeff]

"Jeff, to the contrary. One could argue that more buck tags for sale = larger herds because hunters aren't shooting does and less buck tags for sale = more balanced herds because hunters take more does.
You said so yourself..."when we had the most buck tags available, our deer herd grew the largest."
You perfectly make the point that many have been trying to make. There's a reason our herds grew so much in the 1980's. It was called "buck tag fever"."

Bob, than that would be a significant approach to take in the U.P., where the voices of the 1 buck crowd are the largest in the DMU's with the least amount of deer in the state. From what you are saying, we should actually increase buck tags in those areas, to grow the herd to the levels the DNR looks to reach...interesting point you make!

To me, I still think it boils down to antlerless management and habitat...but that's an interesting thought you have there.;)

[boehr]

...To me, I still think it boils down to antlerless management and habitat...I can agree with that!

Of course managing for big bucks has nothing to do with it.;) :hide:

[NorthJeff]

boehr,

Managing for an older-age structure of bucks within the herd is actually quite simple with either voluntary or mandated restraint on the harvest of yearling bucks...but you are absolutely 100% correct, I feel, in that this has not much to do with the overall numbers other than if you pass on a great portion of the yearling buck population, where there has been a history of just the opposite, the buck population will substantially increase, both in age structure, and total buck population numbers.


Other than that, it's antlerless and habitat management and regardless of how many buck tags we have, the herd will grow or decline based on those two factors. What I see is guys seeing zero deer, so their answer is a 1 buck tag, which to me, is a distraction and misunderstanding as to what the real factors are that influence overall population trends, which again, were at the highest levels when we had the most number of buck tags available.

BTW...congrats on being "retired". It seemed it was something you were looking forward to for a very long time and I hope it meets the expectations you were looking for...ENYOY!