Suggestions about two possible and very useful basic polls

[Belbriette]

I visit the Forum almost daily and I am amazed about the the contents of many posts :
I read about 2,5 years old bucks as being mature and about ARS or MARS as being only motivated by trophymania ... :sad:

I feel it would be a good idea for someone,
- to introduce a poll dealing with what is felt as being the age of true maturity,
- and another one which could ask if MI hunters think that to manage for a a good buck population structure by classes of age is only for the benefit of trophymaniac hunters or for the best of the herd, or for both.

My opinion is that such polls would greatly clarify the general situation and open the door to fruitful discussions.

;)

[Trophy Specialist]

I visit the Forum almost daily and I am amazed about the the contents of many posts :
I read about 2,5 years old bucks as being mature and about ARS or MARS as being only motivated by trophymania ... :sad:

I feel it would be a good idea for someone,
- to introduce a poll dealing with what is felt as being the age of true maturity,
- and another one which could ask if MI hunters think that to manage for a a good buck population structure by classes of age is only for the benefit of trophymaniac hunters or for the best of the herd, or for both.

My opinion is that such polls would greatly clarify the general situation and open the door to fruitful discussions.

;)
I don't mean to sound sarcastic, but why don't you start those polls youself?;)

[Munsterlndr]

These are both good questions but really don't need to be addressed in polls. Polls usually have a limited number of options and my guess is that there would be a wide variety of responses to these questions. Really you just need to ask the questions and you have already done this. :)

As to the first question, I would say that a 3.5 year male deer is mature. Since a 2.5 year old female is most likely breeding ( and some 1.5 year old does are, as well) I guess that would make them mature, as well. A 2.5 year old buck is kind of in limbo with some of the characteristics of a mature buck but also probably lacking the requirements to become a dominant buck and exhibit many of the traits that a dominant buck exhibits. If you eliminate a high percentage of mature bucks from the population, as we do in Michigan, then many 2.5 year olds get pushed up into filling the void that is created by the lack of truly mature deer. Certainly in our herd many 2.5 year old bucks are doing a significant amount of breeding.

Question two. Managing for an older age structure is not intended soley for the benefit of trophy hunters. Trophy hunters certainly benefit from an older age structure, though. The biological motivation for advancing the age structure is to decrease the amount of juvenile breeding that occurs, shorten the duration of the breeding period, increase the amount of dominant buck activity which will impact herd dynamics by causing more does to be bred in a tighter time frame. This will result in more fawns being born in a period of shorter duration, which should improve fawn survival. Clearly there are some good bilological reasons for advancing age structure. Having said that, my guess is that the majority of hunters who are interested in measures such as antler restrictions or limitations on the number of buck licenses available, are doing so to increase their chances at bagging a larger racked buck, not based on biological reasons. Call me a cynic but if you look at the hunting shows or magazines these days, all of the emphasis is placed on big racks and growing big racked deer. I will say that as the QDM message spreads more hunters are becoming aware of the biological reasons and are embracing them. I see that as a good thing.

[luv 2 bowhunt]

Most bucks and does are "mature" at the age of nine months.
Mature meaning "capable of breeding".
It depends on a person's definition of "Mature".

[Belbriette]

In the chronological order,

> Trophy Specialist,

Even if different species of deer are involved, due to exactly the same basic reasons, optimal deer management is a worlwide problem. However, as a foreigner, I do not feel I may become directly involved in MI affairs ...
;)


> Munsterlander,

Your post was a real pleasure ro read ... :)
However, read further ;)


> luv 2 bowhunt ,

You stated one of the important point I have wished to raise :

What does " mature " exactly means ???
According to "Webster's New Collegiate Dictionnary" (Second Edition as I left your Country 41 years ago ...),
"Mature" = "Brought by natural process to completeness of growth and development; full grown; ripe. ....
Hence "mature" does not refer at all to the single ability to breed ...
A mature buck (or doe), is a fully grown AND developped deer, clearly meaning body AND antlers wise as antlers only reach their full development AFTER full body growth.

From what I have learned about "your" deers, even a 3,5 years old buck is not yet mature ... and it is only when the best buck pyramide of ages exists that all the advantages listed by "Munsterlander" become fully operationnal firstly for the best of the herd and secondarily for the best of hunters ...

Incomprehensions with all their consequences frequently arise from different semantic values of the words used by different people : I deeply wish my intrusion in this Forum will be constructive.

Friendly your's,
Jack.

[Trophy Specialist]

Even if different species of deer are involved, due to exactly the same basic reasons, optimal deer management is a worlwide problem. However, as a foreigner, I do not feel I may become directly involved in MI affairs ...
I disagree. We certainly get lots of people that are not from Michigan involved on various topics on here and they are very welcome especially since they can provide differing perspective from where they come from in regards to the issues we face here in MI. I'm curious, where are you from?

As far as your questions go, the age that our bucks become sexually mature varies greatly in MI. In the big snow belts, deer are not sexually mature until they are one and a half years old. In southern Michigan they can and do breed as fawns in their first year.

Now as far as true maturity goes that also depends on the region of the state. In the snowbelt areas it may take seven years for a buck to reach his maximum growth potential. In southern Michigan, it comes a little earlier at about 5 years old.

Deer in the northern snow belt must expend more energy on surviving winter and that stress often delays sexual and true maturity.

[Trophy Specialist]

As far as your second inquiry, I certainly believe that we would be much better off to manage our deer herd for a balance buck age structure. The main problem that we face in trying to accomplish that goal is that we have some 700,000+ deer hunters in Michigan and the vast, overwhelming majority of them want to kill a buck every season. We obviously don’t have that many bucks to go around and thus we over harvest our bucks every year as a result. Yearling bucks make up the brunt of our buck harvest in most of the state. We don’t have enough yearling bucks surviving they’re first set of antlers and restrictions on protecting that portion of our buck age segment are often opposed by many hunters for a host of reasons. Our state wildlife managers are caught in the middle, but they are bound by law to manage our deer herd based on sound science. We have had a host of mandatory antler restrictions (MARs) experiments conducted around the state and the data suggests that MARs do exclude a significant portion of yearling bucks from the harvest and improve the buck age structure. The DNR will be evaluating all the data from those experiments in coming years and they do have plans to submit scientific papers for peer review on the subject. If those papers are published and conclude that MARs are indeed effective at helping the buck age structure in the herd and that it is beneficial to the herd, then changes may be on the horizon, but they are a long way off.

[Belbriette]

> Trophy Specialist,

To politely answer the question of your first post just above :
- I am a french "frogs eater" from north-eastern France, I live in the area where I was born, on the west side of the small (at the US scale) but heavily forested old "Vosges" mountains.
- What you wrote about the age of full maturity corresponds perfectly to what I learned from my readings.

As to your second post, as you kind of allowed me to say more about my opinion about deer management in MI, I will write that, as long as the cost of buck hunting licences will be so cheap, I doubt more than very much that an optimal population structure (sex and age wise) will ever be reached.

In my opinion, for whatever it might be worth ...
- As long as the "average" hunters will be allowed to choose to kill a buck or a doe for the same price, they will kill any buck : the yearling, or a little older trophy, comes like a cherry on the cake ... (Trophymania at its best).
- Always according to my thinking ..., the time of an "old time" way of hunting is already over, the time to harvest in the true sense of the word, for the best of the Optimal and Durable Conservation of the herd is already badly needed all over the World.
It seems obvious to me "occasionnal" 3-4 days a year "hunters" which seem to be very numerous in your State, are not "true" hunters : they only "hunt"
to make some profit at the expense of the herd ...

I will end by a Quote from Aldo Leopold :
" We shall never achieve harmony with land, any more than we shall achieve absolute justice or liberty for people. In these higher aspirations the important thing is not to achieve but to strive."

Keep vigourously striving ...

P.S. Males or females, frogs are equally good to eat ... even if you are not starving ... ;)

Friendly your's,
Jack.

[Trophy Specialist]

Jack, can you give us some perspective on how deer hunting is regulated in your area? You have red deer right?

[Belbriette]

> Trophy Specialist,

To answer your request, roughly :
Kindly forgive my awkwardness with your language : I read it rather well but it is another story to write it ...

- Almost all the forested land is owned by township or by the State.
- Many but very small private properties and big game hunting is not allowed if less than 50 ha (roughly less than 100 + acres).
- No such thing as open public land hunting : hunting rights on all public forests are leased through public auctions every 9 or 12 years.
- Roughly, individual areas covered range from 400 to 1500 ha.
- 4 species : red deer, roe deer, chamois and wildboar.
- Every year, an official commission headed by a State representative and composed of foresters, hunting administration, farmers, hunters and ecologists, establishes the mini / maxi number of animals of each species which can be killed for each individual territory. All animals shot must be tagged on the spot and there is a mandatory presentation to an accredited administration agent within 24 hours.The mini is mandatory.
- For deer, if density is at goal and if the sex ratio is fairly close to 1/1, the basis of these quotas is 1/3 fawn (unsexed), 1/3 older females and 1/3 older males.
- Stalking and high seat hunting is allowed from june 1st to the end of january. February may be added if density is considered too high (forest damages) and if the needed mini quotas are not reached by the end of January.
- The majority of the animals are shot through beats with small hounds like fox terriers or teckels. These collective hunts take place from the end of september to the end of january.
- In some territories, in order to promote selective shooting, stags and roe bucks can only be shot through individual hunting (stalking and from high seats).
- Bow hunting is legal but very uncommon.

That should give you a fairly good general idea of the big game hunting context in France as well as in Europe as a whole.

Jack

[Ferg]

> Trophy Specialist,

To answer your request, roughly :
Kindly forgive my awkwardness with your language : I read it rather well but it is another story to write it ...

- Almost all the forested land is owned by township or by the State.
- Many but very small private properties and big game hunting is not allowed if less than 50 ha (roughly less than 100 + acres).
- No such thing as open public land hunting : hunting rights on all public forests are leased through public auctions every 9 or 12 years.
- Roughly, individual areas covered range from 400 to 1500 ha.
- 4 species : red deer, roe deer, chamois and wildboar.
- Every year, an official commission headed by a State representative and composed of foresters, hunting administration, farmers, hunters and ecologists, establishes the mini / maxi number of animals of each species which can be killed for each individual territory. All animals shot must be tagged on the spot and there is a mandatory presentation to an accredited administration agent within 24 hours.The mini is mandatory.
- For deer, if density is at goal and if the sex ratio is fairly close to 1/1, the basis of these quotas is 1/3 fawn (unsexed), 1/3 older females and 1/3 older males.
- Stalking and high seat hunting is allowed from june 1st to the end of january. February may be added if density is considered too high (forest damages) and if the needed mini quotas are not reached by the end of January.
- The majority of the animals are shot through beats with small hounds like fox terriers or teckels. These collective hunts take place from the end of september to the end of january.
- In some territories, in order to promote selective shooting, stags and roe bucks can only be shot through individual hunting (stalking and from high seats).
- Bow hunting is legal but very uncommon.

That should give you a fairly good general idea of the big game hunting context in France as well as in Europe as a whole.

Jack


I sure hope everyone read this!

Because if we don't stop urban sprawl - then, there WILL come a time when all the land that is forrested is owned by the state/fed and we too shall hunt like Jack releates above -

READ AND HEED -

ferg....

Thanks for the insight Jack - and TS for asking - good posts.

[Whit1]

I sure hope everyone read this!

Because if we don't stop urban sprawl - then, there WILL come a time when all the land that is forrested is owned by the state/fed and we too shall hunt like Jack releates above -

READ AND HEED -

ferg....

Thanks for the insight Jack - and TS for asking - good posts.

Jim,
Now ya are talkin' like them left wing liberal pinkos that all too often get railed on these boards!!!...........:lol:

In reality we are a lot closer to that kind of thinking that far too many would admit!...........:yikes: