? For those that are against A/R's

[MoshPitHippie]

I am just wondering how many people in here that are against A/R's have hunted in a very large area or a DMU where there have been A/R's in place for 4 or more years??? If you did hunt with the A/R's What about that hunting experience did you like and not like? How much time did you spend hunting under A/R's?

[beer and nuts]

I hunted in the Clare area that WAS under AR's and saw maybe 2-3 deer a night and passed on two small bucks(already had a nice 8 point from Rosco Co with no AR, ironic!!!) one a spike(actually was to far to shoot) and the other a nice fork about 20 yards away. Pushed the same property one time in muzzle and pushed one doe to my buddy and that was all the tracks we seen. Open wild field property(50 acres) next to a creek and with 10% woods, and ag. and woods all around. The properties 1-3 miles north see 40-50 deer a day!?!?! Also, saw no sign of any indicating a buck bigger than what I saw, not that means anything cause its only a small piece of the pie but just giving you my experience. I only hunted it 5 times and only because the sign and sightings were not encouraging.

Also, I hunt with friends on a 280 piece around Rosco that you can not shoot a fork or less rule. They have OK food plots etc..There success has been poor the last 4-5 years and have seen and passed on alot of spikes threes etc...I will say their hunting skills are nothing to be desired but again just giving you another example.

[holzy]

First off, I am 100% FOR AR's.

I hunt in DMU 118 and have for the past 11 years. We have 160 acres. Our experiences with more buck sightings, larger buck sightings, and a significantly more intense rut (we took a large number of does off the property as well), has been incredible. Our neighbors also saw the same results which has led us to further the AR's even though the mandatory rule is no longer in place. We have about 700 acres including our 160, of private land that now only shoots bucks with 4 points on a side and a 14-15" spread.

[Gilbey]

AR in Marquette County, surrounding area has crop fields, so not quite as desolate as northern parts of county.

5 yrs running up until last year.

Yrs ago:

5: Little to no buck population, wildly unbalanced with seemingly 90% does/yearlings, only bucks seen were spike horns

4: Little to no buck population, couple of larger spikes seen, couple of forkhorns, 1 mature buck in cedar bedding, that's all, doe population still way off

3: Shot 8 pt over 100 pts opening morning, passed on huge 6 pt day later with no brow tines, friend of camp partner missed 10 pt crossing river at 200 yds, didn't try to track or anything, kicked out of camp, camp partner shot 8 pt scoring mid 120's. Many spikes, forks, and small 6's seen and all passed upon. Ratio was still off, probably 70/30

2. Many mature bucks seen during bow. (12?) No shot. Gun season movement trickled to nothing, full moon and hunting pressure, no bucks seen by entire camp, or next door camp for 3 weeks, no one muzzle loaded that year. Ratio seen was probably 70/30 still.

1. This last November, walked up on a 8 pt scoring probably mid130's, took shot through 18 trees at 37 yds, arrow lodged 2' from "kill zone" 1 inch off :mad: , hit the tree, continued hunting, passed on 7 pt, probably 6 6 ptrs, partner saw the large one last Wed of rifle & passed on neck shot buck turned around and disappeared, I saw him later that day through thick Poplar and windfall running with 9 pt (smaller 2.5), took the 9 pt as was only shot, hopefully that big boy is still running in the same area. Went into their bedroom last day of rifle in a thick tag alder swamp and stirred up around 6 deer at once, all scattered saw large 8 ptr (different) brought gun up and fired to first vital found and it was a doe that sacrificed herself in front of the big one, which I had a unused tag still for, but rifle scope was set on 9 (stupid):bash: and I stirred them up only 15-20 yrds away. All in all, saw over 18 bucks this year, many mature. Hunting should be awesome next year. Less does than normal, but still average sightings on does were 8-12 per day typically, sometimes more/less.

Ratio was just about EVEN this year from what I saw. This figure would be adding in that a nubby is a buck. Previous years, didn't keep track of the nubbies. Great crop of upcoming bucks too. One doe has twin nubbies, plus two other baby bucks running into the baited area. I have multiple 6's that will be great shooters next year, a 7 that I passed on with pretty good genes, all in all, I'm very optimistic and excited for bow and rifle season.

Sorry for the rambling.;) I think the AR is the BEST thing that EVER happened to the hunting right around me.

[Munsterlndr]

The DMU that I own property has MAR's. During the years that MAR's have been in place I have yet to see a legal buck during firearms season. I and some of my family members have had to pass on numerous sub-legal spikes and forks during those years. Antlerless permits are unavailable for public land and in very short supply for private land in this DMU. My brother in law has not taken a deer in three years and has all but given up hunting. I have seen several groups of hunters who used to have week long hunting camps in this area, give up and move to other areas of the State.

I am also not seeing the results that the MAR advocates promised. My deer cam is not showing a bunch of mature bucks running around. I had a couple of 2.5 year old bucks show up on my cam but I don't know if they survived bow season or not. I did not see them during firearms season.

I think the average hunter is hurt by MAR's as it greatly reduces their opportunity to harvest a deer. The primary benificiaries are bow hunters and trophy hunters who may have an increased opportunity to harvest a mature buck.

I'm all for VAR's but MAR's create too much division within the hunting community.

[Trophy Specialist]

I'm all for VAR's but MAR's create too much division within the hunting community.
:confused: :confused: Let me get this straight, you are against MARs becasue it creates division, but you are all for a one-buck limit that will also create division:confused: :confused:

I have hunted in DMU155 for five years of MARs (2001-2005). Before that our buck to doe ratio was horrible, perhaps worse than 1 to 10. Now our buck to doe ratio is nearly even and we have about the same overall number of deer as in 2000. In my camp we used to see very few bucks and adult bucks were rare. Since 2001 we now see bucks on most hunts and adult bucks are seen frequently. Our sucess rate on bucks has also gone up since MARs, because there are many more bucks and all of them taken have been adult bucks. In short, hunting is much more fun now with MARs than before and I've seen an incrase of hunters in my area as a result of the higher quality hunting oportunities, especially on public lands.

There are some downfalls to MARs. Being forced to pass up bucks is the main one for most people. I don't mind having to pass up yearling bucks, but I've had to pass up many big bodied, adult bucks that either did not have 3 points on one side or I couldnot clearly count the points. While that can be extreemly frustrating, I can also say that before MARs, I didn't even have the oportunity to pass up those big bucks because they were not there in good numbers like they are now. And in all cases where I've had to pass up adult bucks, I've still been able to eventually take a legal adult buck anyway. It was just a mater of time. Another problem with MARs is that good quality yearlings can be targeted becasue they have the points. On my property, we do not shoot any yearlings reguardless of antler points. In the U.P. though, few yearling bucks have 3 points on a side. I'd guess that fewer than 20% of the yearlings in my area have 3 points on one antler or more.

[brdhntr]

The DMU that I own property has MAR's. During the years that MAR's have been in place I have yet to see a legal buck during firearms season. I and some of my family members have had to pass on numerous sub-legal spikes and forks during those years. Antlerless permits are unavailable for public land and in very short supply for private land in this DMU. My brother in law has not taken a deer in three years and has all but given up hunting. I have seen several groups of hunters who used to have week long hunting camps in this area, give up and move to other areas of the State.
.

If no one is killing any deer, as this seems to suggest, then you have much greater problems than MAR's. Sounds like some drastic habitat improvement
is needed.

FWIW, I think that VAR's is going to slowly overtake the status quo, so I'm not a proponent of MAR's.

[Munsterlndr]

:confused: :confused: Let me get this straight, you are against MARs becasue it creates division, but you are all for a one-buck limit that will also create division:confused: :confused:


Yes, because I think that going to a one buck limit would have only a minor impact on the vast majority of Michigan hunters. I just don't see it as a hugely divisive issue. As the idea becomes more popular maybe some opposition will emerge. If that is the case and it appears to fracture the hunting community to a great extent, then I might rethink my support of it.

MAR's, however, will have a huge impact on the ability to harvest a deer for many of Michigans "average" hunters and is a hugely divisive issue. I think that is the reason that so many of the proponants of Antler Restrictions have embraced VAR's and education instead of cramming MAR's down peoples throats.

[Pinefarm]

You mean harvest a buck, not harvest just a deer.
If we go to 1 buck tag, MAR's will be a dead issue because there'll be no need for them. More than enough yearlings will then live to at least another season with 1 buck tag.

[Munsterlndr]

If no one is killing any deer, as this seems to suggest, then you have much greater problems than MAR's. Sounds like some drastic habitat improvement
is needed.

FWIW, I think that VAR's is going to slowly overtake the status quo, so I'm not a proponent of MAR's.

I did not say no one was killing any deer. I harvested one doe from my property in this DMU this year. I would have liked to have taken another doe but only one doe permit was available. Bow hunters harvest some does, as well, since they can use both parts of the combo tag and are not dependant upon antlerless licenses like us firearms hunters. There are also al lot of crop damage permits issued to the fruit farmers in this DMU. Last year the bow hunters on the property next to me harvested a couple of nice 2.5 year old bucks.

As far as improvement, in the last year I added some food plots and did some hinge cutting on my property. My neighber selectively cut 20 acres next to me, so habitat improvement is going on. The problem here is not lack of deer. We have a pretty good B/D ratio. The MAR initiative was pushed by a small group of hardcore bow hunters who wanted to see bigger racks. It is not like older deer did not exist in Leelanau County prior to 1993. A friend of mine harvested a 130 class 10 point in 1998 here. I believe Richard P. Smith relates a story in one of his books about our Buddy Mitch Rompala harvesting a book deer off of a leelanau County Cherry Farm during the late 90's, prior to antler restrictions.

I'm in favor of voluntary antler restrictions. I passed on a Button Buck this year that I could have legally shot and tagged with one of my buck licenses, as I had a valid antlerless license. I just don't like being forced to pass on a smaller deer. It should be an individual choice. Antler size is just not very important to me and a nice fat 1.5 year old fork horn sure tastes great on the grill.

MAR's may benefit a few hard core hunters that are set on pursuing large racked bucks but there is also a major downside for the average hunter who is just interested in taking home some venison.

[Gilbey]

Trophy -

Do you mind me asking what generic part of 155, or at least the type of terrain that you hunt? You seem to share a lot of the same characteristics that we are seeing in terms of quality of deer as well. The ratios are MUCH better, like you said 10 to 50ish %, and you get to at least see a quality buck, whether there's opportunity to take it or not. 5 yrs ago? Better shoot that spike so the guy next to me doesn't get it.

[Trophy Specialist]

Trophy -

Do you mind me asking what generic part of 155, or at least the type of terrain that you hunt? You seem to share a lot of the same characteristics that we are seeing in terms of quality of deer as well. The ratios are MUCH better, like you said 10 to 50ish %, and you get to at least see a quality buck, whether there's opportunity to take it or not. 5 yrs ago? Better shoot that spike so the guy next to me doesn't get it.
I own property in Maple Ridge Township. I make my beer runs to Perkins. I also hunt public land half the time during bowseason in the area. There is not much good public land close to my camp (all too accessable). I hunt S. Marquette Co. public land a lot and have found great hunting there as well. I know of a over dozen camps all over DMU155 that have been having outstanding sucess the past few years. I also know of a few that hate the MARs becasue they are not doing as good as they thought they should. One is my neighbor. He hunts for a few days (Nov. 15-18) each year and hunts from one heavily baited enclosed stand for only a few hours in the evening. Another neighbor of mine that still does not like MARs has shot three big bucks in the past four years. He doen't like it becasue he still mistakenly thinks that MARs and QDM equal mandatory doe harvests and he does not like shooting does.

As far as shooting a buck becasue if you don't someone else will. I've not subscribed to that line of thinking for many years. I've been passing up young bucks way before it was considered cool. I'm just not gong to shoot a deer that I will not be happy with. If I pass up a buck and someone else shoots it (which happens every year in S. MI) then that's the breaks.

[Gilbey]

You're close to camp on the other side of the river. Basically the gas and power lines that run by you that come out in Cornell is where we are. Southern Marquette. Results have been great. We had one doubter in our group who over the last season is finally changing his tune. Incidentally, he is also the weekend bait hunting variety, not that it's a bad thing, but has started to see all of our camp partners having mature buck success. He has now joined all of us supporting it.

[One Eye]

You mean harvest a buck, not harvest just a deer.
If we go to 1 buck tag, MAR's will be a dead issue because there'll be no need for them. More than enough yearlings will then live to at least another season with 1 buck tag.
Bob, where do you come up with the premise that "more than enough yearlings will then live at least another season"? I listened to a presentation by Rod Clute 2 weeks ago where he stated that the biologists do not believe this, and studies from other states do not support this. Do you not believe Michigan's deer biologists?

Just curious.

Dan

BTW, I have yet to hear a biologist advocate ARs for the biological health of the herd. That is why I am opposed to MANDATORY ARs.

[brdhntr]

-snip
MAR's may benefit a few hard core hunters that are set on pursuing large racked bucks but there is also a major downside for the average hunter who is just interested in taking home some venison.

They should be helping everyone by now. What do you feel is the reason these bucks are not reaching the MARS minimums? Just doesn't make sense if you are seeing small bucks that they aren't there the next year. Plus the increase in the number of bucks should be causing more observable rutting behavior. Especially if the does are there.

[Munsterlndr]

I think the bucks are reaching the antler minimums. Instead of being shot as 1.5 year old spikes and forks many are being shot as 2.5 year old six's and eights. I think the majority of these are being harvested by bowhunters during the rut.

I no longer bow hunt and the remark I made was that I have not seen any legal bucks in the past three season during rifle season. I have gotten some pictures on my deer cam of some legal bucks during bow season.

The sixes and eights that are being killed are not huge racked deer. They may score in the 90's but they are legal. I guess my point is that it's not like MAR's have produced a bunch of 150 class monsters running around the woods and I think that is kind of the expectation that a lot of hunters who bought into the MAR idea expect.

If you are only going to advance the age class by a year or so what is the point? Is that 130 lb. six point that much more of a trophy than the 100 lb spike?

There are always, MAR's or no MAR's, going to be a few bucks that survive the season and become more skilled at avoiding people. MAR's may produce a few more of these deer and these tend to be the kind pursued by the hard core trophy hunters. Hunting these kind of deer is a completely different activity then hunting regular deer. That is why I say that the hard core trophy hunters are primarily the ones to benefit from MAR's.

As has been mentioned on another thread recently I think waaaaay too much emphasis is being placed on the size of a deers rack these days. Every hunting magazine or show is all about huge racks and how to bag a monster buck. While there is nothing wrong with this fascination with huge racks people should recognize that not all hunters get caught up in this monster buck mania and we should look long and hard at imposing manditory rules that limit the hunting activity of the average hunter who just wants some venison, just so a relatively few hunters can indulge their obsession with well endowed bucks.

[Swamper]

Unfortunately, there is a misperception that the health of the herd is measured through the size of antlers, more specifically the number of points. A better measure is balanced sex ratios, which can be better achieved by the one buck license. We'd be reducing the number of bucks shot by 4.3% each year, which when compounded annually(like money), adds up to a big impact. The IN data from other threads supports this.

ARs are best when part of a voluntary education program. I get a sense the voluntary aspect is taking off on this forum, which is great to see, while the mandatory ARs are becoming recognized as a colossal failure, both in terms of results and public support.

Swamper

[brdhntr]

I think the bucks are reaching the antler minimums. Instead of being shot as 1.5 year old spikes and forks many are being shot as 2.5 year old six's and eights. I think the majority of these are being harvested by bowhunters during the rut.
.
Interesting perspective. Personally (and I'm not attacking you, we can agree to disagree, so to speak), I doubt the majority are being harvested by bowhunters. Those bucks are there, but as you stated later, the older bucks are smarter and will tolerate less activity, etc. You just aren't seeing them, due to the pressure of the gun hunters coming in. I've seen it on our leases many times, that's the big advantage of having a club with multiple spread out properties. One goes cold, I simply switch to another. Not what everyone can do, but if things were that bad, I would take up bowhunting, or temporarily move to another spot, preferably one that had doe permits avialable to get me some venison. I think the real problem here is the expectation that every hunter should go home with some venison. The high densities of the past has conditioned our deer hunters to think they should be able to go out spend a couple hours in a blind and bring home some venison. These guys think they have it tough, they need to take up pheasant hunting on public land in MI!

And I agree, ARs don't necessarily protect beyond say 2.5, or even 1.5 on some of our property in the south. I, personally, age on body size, antler mass, and spread. And I will state again that more and more deer hunters are realizing the need to pass on the smaller bucks and it will continue to grow. With a hunter density the size of MI, though, it is going to take a few years to make a difference on a large scale. I have been seeing it on a smaller scale in the areas I hunt for years. We will reach a point where MARs aren't so taboo, but we aren't there yet.

[giver108]

Well if so many hunters are becoming interested in wanting to hunt larger bucks by watching TV shows, what's wrong with trying to accomodate this obviously growing percentage of the hunting population? I don't understand why so many hunters are so opposed to trying some different methods for managing the deer herd. If you don't try, how do you know that it won't work?

As far as the difference between shooting the 110 lb. 1.5 year old spike and the 130 lb. 2.5 six-point well, I'd rather shoot a 2.5 year old deer moving during the rut than a 1.5 year old on Oct. 1 or Nov. 15 moving to a bait pile or running for it's life from the guy next door. IMO, there's too much sense of entitlement in too many hunter's minds that by hunting three days (and who knows how hard) that they should be able to shoot a deer.

[QDMAMAN]

The DMU that I own property has MAR's. During the years that MAR's have been in place I have yet to see a legal buck during firearms season.

Munster,
The original question was 4 yrs or more of MARs. Is this the case where you hunt?

Big T

[Ferg]

ARs are best when part of a voluntary education program. I get a sense the voluntary aspect is taking off on this forum, which is great to see, Swamper

Well said Swamper - I think your correct - I think there has been a change in the VARS attitude herewith in the last year or so -

ferg....

[magnumhntr]

Deer season 2005 has gone down as the best deer season I've ever had, and I didn't shoot a buck at all. A 2 1/2 yr old doe was my only harvest this year, and yet I saw more 2 1/2 and older bucks than I've ever seen. We've implemented our own VAR in the variety of no 1 1/2 yr old bucks. We've been doing this for 3-4 years now, and the payoff has been huge. I had a 180+ class buck at 35 yards Nov 11, and a 140+ class at 50 yards on Nov 9th. Awesome, awesome year. The only error on age class was this year when my brother shot a 1 1/2 old 8 point that was about 14" inside, and looked to be 2 1/2. Other than that, we've let a ton of bucks walk, and it is paying off big....

Now if I can get the neighbors to quit killing every buck they see, and instead hunt smarter for smarter deer, the quality of bucks would go through the roof...

[Munsterlndr]

Munster,
The original question was 4 yrs or more of MARs. Is this the case where you hunt?

Big T

Nope, going into the 4th year this year. Still if they were going to have a significant impact I would think that there would be some evidence after three years. It's DMU 045.

[Gilbey]

ARs are best when part of a voluntary education program. I get a sense the voluntary aspect is taking off on this forum, which is great to see, while the mandatory ARs are becoming recognized as a colossal failure, both in terms of results and public support.

Swamper

I get this sense as well. But I would beg to differ on your last statement as a colossal failure. The results that we ended up getting was not trophy class 160+'s all day long. Far from it. But we're seeing a whole lot more than one spike horn. That's what it used to be. And as for public support, oppostion to this from the folks that I know is growing slim to none. The MARS worked for us, our neighbors.

[Trophy Specialist]

I get this sense as well. But I would beg to differ on your last statement as a colossal failure. The results that we ended up getting was not trophy class 160+'s all day long. Far from it. But we're seeing a whole lot more than one spike horn. That's what it used to be. And as for public support, oppostion to this from the folks that I know is growing slim to none. The MARS worked for us, our neighbors.
:yeahthat:
MARs have been very sucessful in my neck of the woods too, so I don't know where that one came from. Sure there are lots of people complaining about MARs, but then again people will complain about anything.

[Ed Spin04]

For the last three years our QDMA booth at Huntin Expo's. Deer Spectacular. MUCC Outdoorma and WNW fall show in Imlay City indicates the same as posted above, (attitudes are changing). At the Huntin Expo last weekend we were inundated all day long for three days. The picture sure has changed from just a few years ago. We normally sold 3-5 QDMA memberships at a show just five years ago, last weeknend we added 47 new memberships, unbelevable when one considers that they are not joining Buck Masters that doesn't ask anything of you, while when joining the QDMA you are making a personal commitment to be more concerned about the welfare of our deer.

I believe that, that is the major mission of the QDMA, be concerned and doing something to further the welfare of our deer not MARS, VARS or other means of having trophy bucks running helter slelter about your hunting area.

No where have I found any policy or mission statement pushing MARS, VARS or anything close in any QDMA policy statement, yet the naysayers are quick to put that tag on the organization. Why, perhaps because they need someone to vilify in order to justify their status quo attitude.

It wont be long, based on the fast growing acceptance of hunters and landowners of being stewards of their resource when the naysayers will be in the super minority.

We need to get off this debate about the MARS thing in order for us to have a better chance of taking a trophy buck and get on with the business of manageing our deer primarily for their benifit, (to be more natural in their social structure) and for our benifit secondary.

[NorthJeff]

"while the mandatory ARs are becoming recognized as a colossal failure, both in terms of results and public support."

That's BS..to put it nicely. You can't show one place where MAR's has given poor results...it's a no brainer, it does what it is designed to do, protect a predictable percentage of yearling bucks. VAR's has always been the best way...IF IT WORKS. Unfortunately that is not the case in areas of high amounts of public land. Hunters are fooling themselves if they think that VARs will ever be accepted, or produce results, on public land. Voluntary has ALWAYS been the best way, if it works...the "if it works" part if the problem in a lot of areas. If I was located in large sections of private land with large parcels, I personally wouldn't want MARs because it sets the bar too low, and with cooperation with neighbors successful co-ops can be formed to produce incredible results, VOLINTARILY, as I experience every year in WI, and many experience across the state from several thousand acre co-ops in the thumb, to some great co-ops to the west. However, on public land this is not reality. Funny how many outdoor writers and hunters wouldn't dare hunt in some of our public land areas, instead choosing and seeking to hunt on private lands managed with VARs and even higher standards, but they don't want to apply those same successful principles of management to the general public, on public land, to individuals that have very few tools or resources to better their hunting, unless mandated.

Also, the U.P. wide AR proposal showed a near 2:1 support for MARs and many voted for MARS..but continue to show they won't take part in VARs, or our yearling buck harvest numbers would not be so consistantly high.

John Ozoga thought enough of the DMU 118 numbers to personally send a lengthy letter endorsing the contuation of DMU118 to each NRC commisioner. John Ozoga has also spent a lifetime researching deer in northern MI, is one of the top respected research biologists in the country, Scientific Editor for Deer and Deer hunting magazine, and most likely the most authorititative source on deer management in northern MI. In northern portions of Lower MI, and into the U.P. deer managers outside the region have a tough time understanding the complexities of managing a buck herd in wilderness settings, largely made up of public land, with little natural mast or fruit crop, and rampid baiting. Voluntary is the PR bullet point....but I'm sick and tired of PR and no results. We need to deal with reality, not sugar coated, feel good, soft regulations designed to pacify the ill-informed and casual observer. The reality is that VARs will never work on public land....what a shame that some don't really give a rip for all those public land hunters out there, but have a different set of standards for themselves and the private property they hunt. My hunting on my property will be better than any public land within the area, it's too bad that our current regulations are responsible for such a large gap. I can sit back and not give a rip for the rest of MI because of what I can do on my own land...but I feel I have a moral responsibility to accurately inform the public and it burns me to see the quality of hunting on our public lands, and frankly the expectations and experiences of hunters, be degraded to such consistantly poor levels that is becoming not only common...but expected.

If you think VAR's will ever work on large holding of public land with baiting as the main method of hunting....I've got several bridges, a few planets, and some Florida "waterfront properties" I'd love to sell you...send me a PM.;)

[Trophy Specialist]

It's my opinion that regardless of how well MARs have been proven to work time and time again, we are still seeing a few QDMA people denouncing MARs lately because many people associate MARs with QDM and they don't want to see any negativity pointed towards the QDMA. While I can understand that line of thinking, that would be a huge mistake because it will turn deer hunting into a class war leaving the common public land hunter and many others short on quality hunting opportunities. I've even seen some blatant anti-QDM people on this forum baiting QDMA people with statements like, "If it weren't for MARs I'd join the QDMA." Don't fall for it. Also keep in mind that if anti-MARs QDMA people turn the people that are for MARs against QDMA, the ramifications for QDMA will likely be much worse. Remember that most surveys indicated that the majority of hunters in Michigan favor MARs. You’re always better off to stick with what is best for the resource when deciding on a stance on MARs.

[Ogre]

I have not hunted in an area with antler restrictions but I am against them and don't need to qualify my thinking on the subject. The unlaying question starting this thread has a hidden but not so subtle underlying message of not knocking it till you've tried it which of course is wrong. I don't have to have personal experiences about serial killers to know that such actions are wrong. I am a meat hunter and not a antler or buck hunter. I prefer a young tender deer and I look for a yearling that is if I can see a deer at all. I much prefer the 110 pound yearling to the 130 pound two year old. I don't have to qualify my thoughts by waiting four years or by hunting in a restricted area. I particularly don't have to qualify my thoughts regarding the fact that antler restrictions are particularly onerous to the public land hunter. I do concede that older deer are larger but I will not concede that the majority of hunters are opposed to the one buck rule. If we are looking for either older or bigger deer or balance between the sexes then I believe we can have our cake and eat it too via the one buck rule versus antler restrictions beyond what we already have (three inch spike rule).

[Whit1]

Remember that most surveys indicated that the majority of hunters in Michigan favor MARs. .


Is this correct? If so, I never took part in this survey nor did the vast majority of hunters in Michgan. Unless I missed something over the past ten years.

I believe it would be more accurate to say that a healthy majority of those surveyed were in favor of MARS.

[Trophy Specialist]

Is this correct? If so, I never took part in this survey nor did the vast majority of hunters in Michgan. Unless I missed something over the past ten years.

I believe it would be more accurate to say that a healthy majority of those surveyed were in favor of MARS.
I was refering to the surveys the DNR sent out for MARs proposals around the state.

[NorthJeff]

Milt,

The U.P. survey was a near 2:1 support..that's a pretty "vast majority". If you elected a president with the same numbers of the U.P.-wide AR it would have been considered a true "landside". Also, if you look at the percentages across the entire state, the averages for the 10's of thousands of people surveyed in more than 10 MAR proposals has been around 58-59%. Just like you believe the hunter survey of about the same number of people can produce very accurate results...I feel the same about the results of the AR surveys. Also, when you consider that No-opinions counted in the "no" column, the gap between those for, and those truly against, is wider by a couple of percentage points....most likely something along the lines of 58% "Yes", 40% "No". Vast majority? depends on your definition...but 58 to 40 is at the very least clear and definitive of both hunter and landowner opinions on the subject.

[Munsterlndr]

It may be a majority of the respondants but it is not " amajority of Hunters in Michigan". Only a small percentage of hunters were included in the AR surveys, as well as landowners who may not even hunt. Again, with such overwhelming support you would think that every MAR proposal would have passed and those that were would always have been renewed.

[Whit1]

Mike and Jeff,
I understand what you're both saying. However, the comment that MARS was/is supported by the majority of deer hunters in Michigan simply isn't accurate.

You may be correct, a majority of Michigan's deer hunters may well indeed support MARS, but let's stick to what/who the surveys represented rather than put a spin on it by extrapulating the data and applying it in a non-statiscally based manner across the board.

The data the DNR presents to us about deer harvests has been taken through the mill of statistical analysis, a very rigorous process and one which has been tested by the jury of time, which I don't pretend to understand, and that is a world of difference from one of us stating that we've figured it all out from data/results over a short term of time.

To say the majority of deer hunters in Michigan support MARS based on those unscientific MARS proposals is simply wrong from the point of statistical analysis.

[Munsterlndr]

Another way to look at the "Vast Majority" of support for MAR initiatives.

Of the 15 MAR's initiatives that have been proposed in Michigan, 60% ( a majority although I don't know how vast it is) of them failed to gain the required amount of support to be enacted.

[NorthJeff]

Milt, the numbers are about 58% for roughly 40,000 hunters and landowners surveyed randomly across the entire state. Wasn't the Bell and Peyton survey around 56%? I don't know you could argue with those results. Also, considering that there was an enormous amount of lies and misrepresentation by the anti's in those proposals delivered in the media, the level of support is most likely even higher.

Guys need to face the facts, if you don't like MARs, you are in the minority.....maybe even the "vast minority". ;)

[Liver and Onions]

[QUOTE=Whit1............
To say the majority of deer hunters in Michigan support MARS based on those unscientific MARS proposals is simply wrong from the point of statistical analysis.[/QUOTE]

The MARS proposals were scientific collected surveys. Is this what we do now.........if we don't like something spread false rumors about it ?
Roughly 58% of the landowners & hunters polled supported additional AR's.

L & O

[luv 2 bowhunt]

North Jeff says:
"Guys need to face the facts, if you don't like MARs, you are in the minority.....maybe even the "vast minority". "

For me to believe this, I want you to get a list of EVERY hunting license buyer in the state of Michigan, and you personally send them this questionare.
Then have a totally non vested person tally the votes and then post the results.
In a presidential election EVERYONE has the chance to vote.

[Lenaweebowhunter]

I dont hunt in a DMU that has MAR's, but I do hunt on private land that is enroled in a losley nit neighborhood co-op supporting letting the young bucks walk, and havesting our does. Our total co-op acerage is approximatly 1240 acres.

This has been going on seriously for the pst 5-6 years in the neighborhood, and I have been practicing QDM methods of habitat inprovments, food plots, taking our big does and establishing sanctuarys on our farm. I did not harvest a wall hanger buck this past season, but I saw serveral great 2-1/2 year olds and a handfull of awesom 8 and 10 pointers in the 135 to 170 inch class and countless 1-1/2 year olds. I did take a 4-1/2 year old matriarch doe that feild dressed at 148 lbs. My ajoining nieghbor lady took a buck I let pass due to poor shot operetunitys with her shotgun on November 15th, he is a wopper of a 10-point huge bases, about a 160+ 4-1/2 year old. I passed up a 130+ class 8-point while on a late season a doe hunt with my bow on December 30th, knowing he will be one heck of a buck next season.

What I can say is ever since these changes in deer havest stratagy has taken place in my hunting area I and my ajoining neighbors are seeing and taking more mature bucks, healthy big does and our buck to do ratio is getting closer to where it needs to be. I look forward to this falls hunting season, knowing a number of good bucks and does are using these lands and will offer all the hunters that suround this area, (wheather they support the co-op or not) a great hunting experiance for 2006.

I know this is not for everyone, but the originator of this post asked for comments concerning exsperiances hunting on lands with 4 or more years of MAR's so I thought Id write down my 2 cents worth.

[username]

I think the only people who should be surveyed are the ones that put the time into hunting and scout year-round, manage thier property, hunt for 3 months, etc. I dont know if it could be done. A guy who hunts 3 to 5 days of rifle is able to make decsions that will impact all hunters and it seems that they complain the loudest when they dont get their "buck".

How many guys here put all that time in and then on the opening day hunt drop the first thing that comes by?

[bucko12pt]

Nope, going into the 4th year this year. Still if they were going to have a significant impact I would think that there would be some evidence after three years. It's DMU 045.

Munsterlndr

Leelanau Cowent from putting 3-4 bucks in the book annually, to 8 last year and possibly as many as 15 or more this year. I measured 5 bucks tonite for CBM, at a taxidermist's place in Leelanau Co.. All will go in the book. They ranged from the smallest (a bow kill) at 108 to 4 rifle kills that scored from 130 to 150. I have three more to measure at this taxidermist's that will make the book and another 10 or more that I know of that will make it. I looked at probably another 15 racks tonite, that were short of making the book, but are still dandy trophys, a number of them scoring 115-120.
The fact is AR's are working in Leelanau Co.. There are a number of known 150+ class bucks that were not harvested this year and I know of a set of sheds found last year that score in the 170's. That buck was not harvested either.
Call Mike Borkovich and he can bring you up to speed on the harvest in Leelanau this year. He knows of nearly every buck that was harvested out here and has pictures of nearly every nice one.

[Ferg]

In a presidential election EVERYONE has the chance to vote.

I would strongly caution people on this -

We DO NOT want 'EVERYONE' having a say in deer management - that's a vote sportsmen and woman will loose - guarenteed.

Putting deer management to a vote is BS at all levels, survey blah blah -

what we need is someone that has the non-political nads to do what is necessary for the whitetail heard and damn the rest -

People/hunters and sportsmen are very adaptable - they will adjust -

ferg....

[luv 2 bowhunt]

Ferg:
I said that "every hunting license buyer"
should be in on the vote.

[Ferg]

Ferg:
I said that "every hunting license buyer"
should be in on the vote.

My bad - Sorry - I thought by your annology to a pres election you were 'suggesting' everyone have a vote -

Again - sorry -

ferg....

[Munsterlndr]

Munsterlndr

Leelanau Cowent from putting 3-4 bucks in the book annually, to 8 last year and possibly as many as 15 or more this year. I measured 5 bucks tonite for CBM, at a taxidermist's place in Leelanau Co.. All will go in the book. They ranged from the smallest (a bow kill) at 108 to 4 rifle kills that scored from 130 to 150. I have three more to measure at this taxidermist's that will make the book and another 10 or more that I know of that will make it. I looked at probably another 15 racks tonite, that were short of making the book, but are still dandy trophys, a number of them scoring 115-120.
The fact is AR's are working in Leelanau Co.. There are a number of known 150+ class bucks that were not harvested this year and I know of a set of sheds found last year that score in the 170's. That buck was not harvested either.
Call Mike Borkovich and he can bring you up to speed on the harvest in Leelanau this year. He knows of nearly every buck that was harvested out here and has pictures of nearly every nice one.

I'm sure that a few more large bucks will be produced under MAR's but to what end? You say that they are working because 4 more hunters got to put a buck in the book. My point is that in order for those four hunters to be in the book, how many 14 year old kids had to pass on a deer? How many hunting camps closed and moved to other areas where they will spend their money in the future? How many guys went without getting a deer for a few years and decided to hang it up?

If you are measuring for CBM I would guess that you are at the end of the deer hunting spectrum primarily interested in big bucks. Nothing wrong with that. Just realize that there are a lot of hunters out there that could care less about the size of the rack. When they are told that they can no longer harvest the same deer that they have been harvesting for years, primarily so some trophy hunters can have a better chance of bagging a book buck, you can see how this issue can breed some animosity between hunters.

That is why I'm for VAR's. You want to manage your property for larger deer and pass on the small ones? Great, go for it. But let the 14 year old kid take a spike for his first deer if he wants to.

I have hunted in Leelanau Co. for over twenty years and did not find the deer hunting "bad" during any of those years. MAR's were introduced to fix a "problem" that did not exist. It goes back to this growing mania with big racks. Too many hunters are starting to judge the quality of the hunting experience soley on the size of the rack of the buck they kill. They need to stop watching Buckmasters or Hunting the Country and just enjoy the time spent in the woods communing with nature.

[Gilbey]

I think the only people who should be surveyed are the ones that put the time into hunting and scout year-round, manage thier property, hunt for 3 months, etc. I dont know if it could be done. A guy who hunts 3 to 5 days of rifle is able to make decsions that will impact all hunters and it seems that they complain the loudest when they dont get their "buck".

How many guys here put all that time in and then on the opening day hunt drop the first thing that comes by?

It's funny you say that. It's very true from what I see. There would be no way to do this, but you're right concerning the hunters that show up opening day of rifle and are the loudest of all and haven't even gone bird hunting to look for sign.

[Trophy Specialist]

Leelanau Cowent from putting 3-4 bucks in the book annually, to 8 last year and possibly as many as 15 or more this year. I measured 5 bucks tonite for CBM, at a taxidermist's place in Leelanau Co.. All will go in the book. They ranged from the smallest (a bow kill) at 108 to 4 rifle kills that scored from 130 to 150. I have three more to measure at this taxidermist's that will make the book and another 10 or more that I know of that will make it. I looked at probably another 15 racks tonite, that were short of making the book, but are still dandy trophys, a number of them scoring 115-120.
The fact is AR's are working in Leelanau Co.. There are a number of known 150+ class bucks that were not harvested this year and I know of a set of sheds found last year that score in the 170's. That buck was not harvested either.
Call Mike Borkovich and he can bring you up to speed on the harvest in Leelanau this year. He knows of nearly every buck that was harvested out here and has pictures of nearly every nice one.
Glad to here that things are going well in Leelanau County with the MARs experiment, but it doesn't surprise me. When it's all said and done, I would bet that hunter sucess rates on bucks will not be affected much by the MARs when at the same time the number of adult bucks in the harvest will skyrocket. What will also happen is that MARs will shift the harvest of bucks more twards savvy, avid hunters. Young hunters that do there homework and hunt smart will still kill just as many bucks as before, so MARs does not descriminate based on age.

[brdhntr]

-snip
It goes back to this growing mania with big racks. Too many hunters are starting to judge the quality of the hunting experience soley on the size of the rack of the buck they kill. They need to stop watching Buckmasters or Hunting the Country and just enjoy the time spent in the woods communing with nature.
I don't know any hunters who are truly hunt a mature buck who base the quality of the hunting experience on the size of the buck they kill. Most would have given up long ago, because more often than not, they go without killing a buck. The people I hear complaining about the quality of their hunt are those that "don't care about the antlers", yet feel the need to kill the first yearling spike they see.

[Whit1]

Guys,
There's a couple of posts above that are doing deer hunting, QDM, MARS and hunting real disservice. I am speaking of those that speak of having a "vote" to set regulations and, worse yet, those that have a bend towards what appears to be a "class" determination as to who should "vote" by limiting any such "vote" to only those who are truly dedictated to the sport. There is deragatory remarks made about firearms hunters and their lack of said dedication and work ethic (my words).

First of all, this stuff isn't ever coming to a "vote" and this talk is more or less an exercise in mind games. I'm sure we all want to see "our" way be adopted by the DNR in their management methods. Secondly I'd urge you not to fall into that trap of setting up any one particular idea or group of hunters as an elitist clique which distains and looks down upon anyone who doesn't hunt the way they do or agree with their ideas and concepts.

[Trophy Specialist]

Guys,
There's a couple of posts above that are doing deer hunting, QDM, MARS and hunting real disservice. I am speaking of those that speak of having a "vote" to set regulations and, worse yet, those that have a bend towards what appears to be a "class" determination as to who should "vote" by limiting any such "vote" to only those who are truly dedictated to the sport. There is deragatory remarks made about firearms hunters and their lack of said dedication and work ethic (my words).

First of all, this stuff isn't ever coming to a "vote" and this talk is more or less an exercise in mind games. I'm sure we all want to see "our" way be adopted by the DNR in their management methods. Secondly I'd urge you not to fall into that trap of setting up any one particular idea or group of hunters as an elitist clique which distains and looks down upon anyone who doesn't hunt the way they do or agree with their ideas and concepts.
I completely agree with what you're saying, however you may have fueled some of those comments when you questioned the DNR's statistics and indicated that since you didn't get to vote, the results were somehow not accurate. That one left me scratching my head.

[Swamper]

Great post, Whit1.



Swamper

[Gilbey]

Whit, you're right and don't want to be an "elitist". I was just scratching my chin reading that and it's just true to what I see. I didn't intend that it be concerning everybody that has minimal time in the woods. Sorry if I offended any.

[Whit1]

I completely agree with what you're saying, however you may have fueled some of those comments when you questioned the DNR's statistics and indicated that since you didn't get to vote, the results were somehow not accurate. That one left me scratching my head.

Mike, the only thing I questioned was an attempt to translate the results of the QDM/MARS surveys (in regard to the proposals) into an across the board statement that they reflected hunters' attitudes across the state. I said that may be correct, but I didn't think the data could be transferred so that it would be statistically accurate.

[Ogre]

Tailgating on an earlier post, one of the problems that we have in the state is that our seasons are way too long. The comment about putting three months into hunting is a perfect example. Starting with the youth hunts it is true that deer hunting goes from almost labor day to New Years? Way way way too long of a hunting stretch for one big game animal. It's surprising with an almost quarter of a year open to deer hunting that deer haven't gone the way of the Dodo in Michigan. In fact, in my mind and neck of the woods deer have disappeared. Thus, I don't look to those that spent that amount of time in the woods actually hunting as someone to emulate or deferred to. In regards to acceptance of antler restrictions, do any of you spend time in the barbershops, churches, or meeting places of the north country? I have yet to find acceptance of the restrictions anywhere and that's only if I bring up the subject as it is something that is just not important to the average Joe or Jane. It's not a topic of conversation.

[farmlegend]

I understand what you're both saying. However, the comment that MARS was/is supported by the majority of deer hunters in Michigan simply isn't accurate.

Correct. The Peyton-Bull 2001 survey concluded that over 50% of Michigan hunters supported the deer herd being managed for an improved buck age structure, which is far different from concluding majority support for antler restrictions.

Not all regions have had as strong support as others for antler restrictions. The proposal for DMU's 032, 076, and 079 (Huron, Sanilac, and Tuscola counties), concluded in March, 2002, indicated that 36% of hunters and 39% of landowners in the thumb region supported the imposition of antler restrictions there. Down where I hunt, you could probably hire a Madison Avenue ad firm, spend a fortune, get a boatload of endorsements, etc., and I still doubt you'd get 50% support for antler restrictions. Of course, to be fair, it would probably be tough to get 50% support for just about any sort of change involving deer regs.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_10856_10905-29395--,00.html

[NorthJeff]

Considering the blatent attacks based on mis-information about both QDM and AR's throughout some of the process, especially in the thumb area, the 58% from random samplings across the entire state would be hard to argue with. Again, the U.P. wide AR was almost 2:1 support, with negative misinformation and mistruths spread by media and various local sportsmen's groups....take away the misinformation and the survey would have been much, much higher. As it was it was a true landslide. Face it guys, if you are against AR's, you are in the minority...there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

[Swamper]

Thanks for the insight Farm Legend. As expected, some areas had a higher level of support for ARs while others were lower. Trying to draw a conclusion about the entire state's support or lack thereof for ARs is not valid when the numbers vary so drastically by regions.

"The Peyton-Bull 2001 survey concluded that over 50% of Michigan hunters supported the deer herd being managed for an improved buck age structure, which is far different from concluding majority support for antler restrictions."

That's a key difference! Where can one find this survey data? Sorry if it was posted before and I missed it.

Swamper

[Ogre]

The UP did not have two to one support for antler restrictions. Of those that returned their surveys, over sixty percent responded favorably to restrictions. As an example, 10,000 surveys could be sent out with 20 surveys being returned and of those that were returned 13 favored restrictions. One could arguable say that this is a clear 2 to 1 vote favoring restrictions but I don't think so. Yes of those that returned the surveys over sixty percent favored restrictions in the UP but ask what the criteria was for sending out the surveys and what was the return rate. The sampling was not randem. Further I believe there was a clear understanding that non returned surveys were to be considered negative votes. I strongly disagree with the assumption that the UP is in favor of antler restrictions.

[Munsterlndr]

Swamper-

Here are the Peyton-Bull survey results.

http://www.fw.msu.edu/people/PeytonRBen/Documents/SubmittedPublicQDMreport.pdf

[farmlegend]

The version you posted, ML, is the summary report. The detailed version is 130+ pages long. I've got it somewhere on a PDF file, and will look for it.

[bucko12pt]

I'm sure that a few more large bucks will be produced under MAR's but to what end? You say that they are working because 4 more hunters got to put a buck in the book. My point is that in order for those four hunters to be in the book, how many 14 year old kids had to pass on a deer? How many hunting camps closed and moved to other areas where they will spend their money in the future? How many guys went without getting a deer for a few years and decided to hang it up?

If you are measuring for CBM I would guess that you are at the end of the deer hunting spectrum primarily interested in big bucks. Nothing wrong with that. Just realize that there are a lot of hunters out there that could care less about the size of the rack. When they are told that they can no longer harvest the same deer that they have been harvesting for years, primarily so some trophy hunters can have a better chance of bagging a book buck, you can see how this issue can breed some animosity between hunters.

That is why I'm for VAR's. You want to manage your property for larger deer and pass on the small ones? Great, go for it. But let the 14 year old kid take a spike for his first deer if he wants to.

I have hunted in Leelanau Co. for over twenty years and did not find the deer hunting "bad" during any of those years. MAR's were introduced to fix a "problem" that did not exist. It goes back to this growing mania with big racks. Too many hunters are starting to judge the quality of the hunting experience soley on the size of the rack of the buck they kill. They need to stop watching Buckmasters or Hunting the Country and just enjoy the time spent in the woods communing with nature.

The only reason that I support the MAR in Leelanau Co. is that fact that we are never going back to the days of 1985 - 89 when we had the largest deer herds in this county and the state. Many hunters won't face that fact, but it is reality. A smaller herd is here to stay!! We had big numbers of deer back then, but the ratio of does to bucks was high, probably 8 or 9 to 1, or higher. The state just told us that Leelanau Co's. population goal is 5900 animals. If we can get the ratio down to 3 or 4 to 1, instead of what we had in 1989, it means a much higher population of bucks in a smaller herd. The only management tool that I have seen that might get us to that ratio, is MAR and/or QDM. The way we have been doing it for the past 50 years certainly isn't going to get us there.

As far as hunters from Leelanau quitting or going elsewhere, far be that from a fact. I've hunted here since the early 60's and I don't remember
any time in the past where there has been as much interest in hunting the county as there is now. More farmers are leasing their land out to out of county hunters and I'm sure you know how tough it is to find a place to hunt.

As to the argument that the young hunters are being denied a chance to harvest a buck, I would say that I hear that coming from the fathers, not the kids. Most, I equate to the parent that is pushing his kid in football or basketball, to be something the father was'nt when he was his sons age. He only hopes his son gets a buck to stroke his own ego. I've hunted in camps all over North America and we have always catered and encouraged kids in our camps. Ask one of these young men what they want to harvest. It isn't the spike or forkhorn their dad is satisfied with. It's an 8 or 10 point.
Actually, as long as they beat their dad, or brother, or uncle, it really doesn't matter. I see plenty of them passing the small bucks and waiting for a mature deer, leaving the immature bucks to the adults that can't stop from pulling the trigger.

What is a little ironic, are the guys I know that have been outspoken against MAR, but are the the first to have their pictures in the paper with a nice bucket they have harvested. They won't acknowledge that MAR was what probably allowed their opportunity to harvest a nice buck.

We only have two more years of MAR, then we may be back to the good old days of deer hunting in Leelanau Co!!

[Munsterlndr]

I'm all for a balanced herd and I'm supportive of QDM to get there.

If you are talking about pre-harvest ratios I highly doubt that the B/D ratio was 9-1 in the 1980's. From what I have read from some population experts it is almost impossible to get a B/D ratio higher than 4 or 5 to 1 in a free ranging herd, even with buck only harvests. My guess is that we are at about 1.5/1 ratio right now, which is pretty good. I base this observation on anecdotal evidence from my deer cam, which was out for 8 months this year.

I will also say that even during the years of extremely high deer numbers I never remember there being a lack of bucks in the woods. I have kept a detailed hunting journal since 1994 and can point to numerous times when I saw mature bucks while hunting prior to MAR's being enacted. Now I will say that most of these sighting were during bow season and the deer tended to be out of range. The lack of seeing mature bucks during rifle season is not a function of their not being in the population, it is a function of the rut being pretty much over by the time the 15th rolls around and the increased hunting pressure that causes them to go nocturnal.

If you want to maintain the herd at the relatively low current level a better way to do it, IMO, is to open up the late doe season like we used to have and increase the number of antlerless permits. That coupled with voluntary antler restrictions that a lot of private land hunters subscribe to, would keep the B/D ratio in line and the herd at the appropriate level. Going to a single buck tag would be fine with me, as well.

Heck, if it's really that important to you why don't we just close the county to buck hunting for a few years. That would be fine with me as long as I get a doe permit. Somehow I think that a lot of the guys who are interested in pursuing a monster buck would not go along with missing a few seasons, instead they want someone else to make the sacrafice so that they can reap the benefit.

The fact is that MAR's deny many hunters, including young kids & old timers, the opportunity to harvest a deer. You can spin this any way you want by trying to blame it on a Dad pushing his kid to shoot a buck but you can't deny the fact that MAR's will preclude some hunters from taking a deer that year. I have seen personally that this can cause both adults and kids to lose interest in hunting and leave the sport. Spin it any way you want but I am not in favor of imposing laws that will reduce the number of hunters, especially so that some other hunters can have the increased likelyhood of shooting a buck with a bigger rack.

By the way, never had my picture in the paper and probably would not even if I shot a monster. I have, though, proudly posted in this forum several pictures of nice Leelanau County does that I have harvested in the last couple of years. So believe me when I say I could care less about whether I ever harvest another buck again in my life. I enjoy hunting and being in the woods. It is not a competition to me and I don't have any desire to "beat" anyone when it comes to harvesting a deer. Shooting a deer does not involve my ego like it seems to for a lot of hunters, especially those that are concerned about bagging a book buck. I just like to eat them.

[bucko12pt]

[quote=Munsterlndr]The DMU that I own property has MAR's. During the years that MAR's have been in place I have yet to see a legal buck during firearms season. I and some of my family members have had to pass on numerous sub-legal spikes and forks during those years. Antlerless permits are unavailable for public land and in very short supply for private land in this DMU. My brother in law has not taken a deer in three years and has all but given up hunting. I have seen several groups of hunters who used to have week long hunting camps in this area, give up and move to other areas of the State.

I am also not seeing the results that the MAR advocates promised. My deer cam is not showing a bunch of mature bucks running around. I had a couple of 2.5 year old bucks show up on my cam but I don't know if they survived bow season or not. I did not see them during firearms season.

In this post you state that you haven't seen a legal buck in the past three seasons and seem to blame MAR for that fact. I guess if I hadn't seen a legal buck in the past three years, I might consider quitting also.

In your last post you say you are seeing bucks on your game cam, but not during rifle season. (Incidentally, I do'nt believe the doe to buck ratio is 1.5 to 1 in Leelanau as a result of my game cam photos. You would never convince Mike Borkovich of this either)
Hunting 3-4 year old bucks is a lot different than hunting 1-2 year old bucks. Some guys choose to take up that challenge while others choose to quit hunting or maintanin the status quo. As far as the quitters, they are the one's putting up blinds and sighting in their rifles on Nov 14th, so if they choose to quit, then the hunting community is better off without them IMHO.

As far as the kids, we each have our own opinion. We currently have 8-10 young kids in our camp. I don't hear any of them complaining abour MAR. Instead, they are out hunting every day, passing small bucks while looking for mature one's while I have to work!!
If kids are quitting hunting, it's because of issues other than not being able to shoot whatever they want to. If a kid is really interested in hunting, he will be out there pursuing legal game. If he isn't, he's at the Mall or wherever. I would hope as a father, I could convince my child that there is a lot more to hunting, than killing the first spike or forkhorn that come's along.
My son will be 30 this year and has passed immature bucks since he was 15 or 16. He has come home empty many times, but has told me numerous times that it has made him feel good to know he let one walk to live another day. That makes me pretty proud as the one that encouraged him to choose this way to hunt.

Incidentally, I will be the first one to sign a petition to close Leelanau for 1-2-3 years to all deer hunting!!!

[Munsterlndr]

I guess that shows the difference between our approach to hunting. The fact that I have not seen a legal buck during rifle season in the last three years does not bother me at all. I have quite happily harvested does. It certainly would not cause me to give up hunting. I don't blame MAR's for the fact that I have not seen mature bucks but if you listen to proponents of MAR's the woods should be absolutely crawling with 150 class 10 points. I'm just offering a perspective to those who have not hunted under MAR's and may be deciding whether or not to support them.

Sorry, I don't think that anyone leaving the hunters ranks is a good thing unless they are poachers. I will take a wild guess and say that you are a bowhunter, maybe even a traditional bowhunter. I have seen the attitude that hunting has to be a challenge and a greater challenge makes a hunter somehow superior to other hunters. I'll take another guess that you don't like people who use bait, heated blinds, in-line muzzleloaders, or crossbows, either. I take a more libertarian approach, myself. As long as it's legal I could care less what method or weapon someone else chooses to use and I certainly don't judge one hunter as being "better" than another. Different strokes for different folks.

I'm glad you are proud of your son and more power to him. If that is how he chooses to hunt, great! But recognize that others approach hunting differently and have just as much right to share the resource as anybody else.

Don't see the need for closing Leelanau County for antlerless hunting, there seem to be plenty of does. Besides, they already closed Lake County, where my other hunting property is located, to antlerless this year so if Leelanau was closed I'd be forced to shoot a buck for my venison. :lol:

[Swamper]

"As far as the quitters, they are the one's putting up blinds and sighting in their rifles on Nov 14th, so if they choose to quit, then the hunting community is better off without them IMHO."

I am growing increasingly concerned about the people who are mentioning more often in their posts these thoughts. Why does there have to be this negative labeling of the public land hunters, baiters, those who shoot small bucks, those who hunt only a few days, kids who take small bucks, parents of kids who take small bucks. I understand the heated debates over theories, QDMs, etc...but why this?



Swamper

[bucko12pt]

Part of the problem with reading words writtten on the internet is it's hard to interpret what a person is like without seeing and talking to him, so you can see his expressions, hand/body movements etc. You seem to think I am some kind of elitist because of your interpretation of who I might be.

I am a bowhunter, but not a traditionalist, I hunt with a Matthews bow.

I bait, but only out of necessity and hate tha fact that we are teaching a whole generation of kids that this is the way to hunt.

I have a heated blind at camp and enjoy it a lot. I also, enjoy sitting on a stump in the snow watching the chickadees and red squirrels.

I have several muzzleloaders, from a Lyman Great Plains, to a Hawken, to the most modern and deadly muzzleloader produced today - an Ultimate Firearms 50 cal.

I have nothing against crossbows and if a season were to come to be in Michigan, I would probably be out there.

I have shot plenty of does, spikes and forks in my day and am proud of every deer I ever harvested. Ate every one of them also. So we have a lot in common. Somewhere along the line, I chose to let the small bucks walk for a couple reasons. First because it made me feel good to let him go and second because maybe I would see him again in the future and he might be a little smarter, have a little more meat on his bones and bone on his head.

I have hunting property in Leelanau, but really do'nt hunt here much. Our hunting camp is in Kalkaska Co., so you know I'm not chasing 150 class bucks there. Just happen to have a great camp, with good guys and enjoy that more than hunting from home. I would only like to see what is best for the county and in my opinion, MAR is it for now. In two years, we'll find out if 67% of the people agree again, as they did three years ago. If they don't, I'll be fine with that also.