How do you know outstate is better?

[beer and nuts]

Got me thinking, how do you know that Iowa, Kansas and Illinois is better deer hunting?? 1. Just from pictures in mags and Drury outdoors? You know they all use outfiiters or have their own leased farms on those TV shows.
2. Because your friend/buddy went out there and the stories he tells......!!!
Ask yourself did he use an outfitter or lease land? Or ask yourself of all the stories you have heard, how many went out there on leased or outfitted lands? 3. Its gotta by good hunting, thats all I ever hear on how big the bucks are! MMMmmm, so if MI went to all cornfields and riverbottoms....oh never mind....except for a few examples IF you got the money the hunting can be fantastic!

[NorthJeff]

I've been there. ;) I have to say something though to what Tony talks about above...in the states I have hunted I can honestly say that MI has had more of a handle on overall population numbers for longer than most other states. There are still areas way to high..but they are becoming more the exception, than rule. Other states have been catching up lately...but in my experience MI was one of the first to start aggressive doe harvest. MI has many DMU's that are underpopulated, and that fact is hard to find in other states within the area at this point...other than maybe PA.

*In PA I've hunted for 13 years on public land and would trade 1 day of PA public land hunting for the entire 2-week rifle season on public land in MI.

*This should be my 5th year hunting on our lease in WI. This lease is just like anyother property in the area we hunt...only we pay the farmer to hunt. No guides, no outfitter, we do everything. The main differance between this property, and another is that it has a legal and binding agreement for an exchange of money. We get to hunt on a several hundred thousand dollar tract of land for cheaper than my real estate taxes are in the U.P. The attitudes in town, hunters we meet at the local restaurants, everything is different. At the same time, it appears everyone hunts and there are still many hunters per square mile...a lot more than around here in the U.P. No, not everyone passes on young bucks, but they are years in front of MI. Also, the guys that hunted on public land in WI this did phenomenal, with 4/5 taking bucks in the 120-140 range..ON PUBLIC LAND.

*I was able to hunt 2 years in KY..again, different attitudes. This was 6 and 7 years ago and the private property I hunted on with a friend that had permission had a rule of only shooting bucks with a 15" spread or greater. I had a great hunt, saw around 10 bucks, and passed on one 2.5 year old with a 15" spread...had a great time, and again, different attitudes.

*I hunted IN in 88, and again, different attitudes. On the property I hunted with a room mate in college we had to shoot a buck with 8 pts, or better.

It's just completely different "out of state" in most cases. There are always the exceptions, but the attitudes and expectations have not been lowered due to years of mediocrity. It's a viscious cycle we have in MI and unless the DNR starts to take more of a leadership roll I fear we will continue the downward spiral. But, for now, I will continue to participate in "out of state" hunting despite my economic future or status. We can always sell our property, can always downsize in home or automobiles, toys, but hunting out of state is not-negotiable and as a serious hunter that can recognize and appreciate a quality herd, hunting out of state will continue to be a way of life.

[Sib]

I've never hunted out of state, but I hope to someday. I can't comment on out of state, but I can comment on Michigan.

Inspite of all of our problems in MI, I can honestly say every season I can find a decent buck that gives me a challenge, is more than 2.5 yr of age and provides hours upon hours of pleasure pursuing. In the past 15 yrs I've only shot one buck smaller than 8 points and that was a 6 pt. I take does and a few years I've gone buckless. Going buckless doesn't mean I didn't have any huntable deer around, just that I never got a chance with the deer/s I was hunting.

Regardless of what everyone else is shooting, I still find huntable deer and go about things the way I choose. Sure neighbors have shot deer I pass up, happens every season, but I had my management decision, I passed, they get to make their's. I fully believe every county in this state has huntable deer, but they don't get old by being stupid, you just have to work to find them. Oh, and I usually know what deer/s I'll be hunting by mid August, so I'm always scouting and loving every part of it.

So is out of state better? Maybe, but there's plenty of opportunities in this state, imo.

ps. I feel having QDM land is a double edge sword and we often hear about the benefits. One negative from the hunting aspect, imo, is that it often puts the hunter in a border mode. That is, after umpteen dollars spent, a hunter is more attached to a given piece of land and is hell-bent on making that piece of land work. I think the best buck opportunities come from a flexible game plan that keeps a hunter searching for the places big bucks choose to be and not every piece of ground is going to yield the same results even after habitat work. So as much as I've heard that hunters need to keep changing with the times and not doing things as they were 20 years ago, I believe QDMers should take this to heart, too. Because many just keep working that same piece of turf hoping they'll grow ol mossy horns, but from the level of frustration, often displayed in forums like this, it might be time to get out and find the bucks, rather than hope they set up shop on your piece.

[kingfisher 11]

I have hunted ILL, KS, MT and Sask. All of those are better then most of MI.

Most unguided, still had my best hunts. I think its funny when I read where someone claims the fun thing is bonding with others and if you dont see a big buck it was the hunt and the companionship that made it good. It is to a point. I go out of state with some friends we do the same thing but we also bring back big bucks. What would you enjoy more? I don't think there are many who will say shooting a big buck is not enjoyable?

I have had a few out of state hunts where I came home empty handed. Still, some of my most memorable hunts. Many states give you very good odds on a chance at a true trophy. Just seeing those big bucks gives you a lifetime of memories.

My family has repeatedly watched some of the adventures I taped while hunting in KS this past Dec. I know for my friends and I this will be a memory that will be with us for a lifetime.

My bet is many of the guys who knock management plans here in MI have never had a quality hunt out of state. The only reason I say this is once you do it, you find a way to scrap money to go back again and again. You become addicted if deer hunting is your bag.

I am starting to think I should bite my lip and not disclose some of my experiences. Less competition for out of state tags if fewer know about it.

[BlockBUD]

Sib~ Wow! I thought your post really made sense! I have always felt the same about this as I read QDM material over the past few years. I feel that there are all sizes and ages of deer out there; if you want to shoot those older bucks, then work hard and you'll find them. There are deer out there for everyone now; it seems that hunters want it to be easy to shoot an older buck every season.

[kingfisher 11]

Only place I can say it might be easy shooting a big buck is a zoo.

If someone thinks going out of state is guaranteed, its not. Killing a big buck is very tough. Going out of state gives you higher odds to see a big buck. I like seeing big bucks even if I don't tag one. All I can say is a big buck is something that is special, no matter where you choose to hunt it. Many times the scenery alone makes the out of state hunt a pleasure. Then add the knd fold you run into. I will say this and I am sure it will rile a few. I can tell you once you get in the heart land the people in general are much friendlier them many in MI. Everyone waves at you.

Had a older gentlemen stop us in KS last month to give us direction of tow trophy mule deer by the road. We had out of state plates. Can anyone how often this happens in MI with complete strangers?

Back to the topic...most have know idea what its like until they try it. I won't fault you if you can't or chose not to do it. Just don't compare the state to some of the others that will be mentioned. MI has some decent southern MI and UP hunting. The other states just don't have the hunting pressure and competition. This alone makes it more enjoyable to be in the woods.

[Sib]

I've just learned to keep as many options open as possible and that includes private and public land in 4 counties, although I actually only hunted in two this year. There was a couple 'huntable' deer on some private land in the LP I hunt, so the public land I had scouted didn't get hunted.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/521/Buck_1.JPEG
Sorry bout the fuzziness, video still.

I watch this guy grow his head gear all summer and was hoping for a chance at him, but I didn't get my chance with him and ended up having success 432 miles away without ever leaving the state. :lol: I'm sure some would pass on this, but I wouldn't. I was actively hunting him and he and more like him are enough for me. The deer above was taken by a neighbor in early Nov. and aged at 3.5 yrs. I ended up taking a 10 in the UP. Gotta keep those options open.

[kingfisher 11]

Nice seeing bucks like this. Now what if I told you I went SW of MI about 432 miles and passed 5-10 bucks a day like that?

I had one buddy who passed 10 bucks opening day of rifle season before noon and he swears most were over 115" and closer to 125"

I love Mi because its my home state and grew up hunting the Northern MI big woods. I think everyone should experience one trip out of state to one of the good midwest hunting spots. I get the biggest kick taking a new guy to KS or Ill. When we get back many don't feel the same about our state. I tell them its like Moses going to the top of the mountain. They return with white hair.

[Leon2]

How many Michigan hunters are now hunting out of state? is one of my favorite questions. I think the DNR should be asking this question and attempting to quantify it.

My own anecdotal data tells me that a significantly higher number of Michigan hunters (of average income levels) are saving up all year and taking one trip to another state or a Canadian province where they are seeing and, in some cases, taking a big buck. I can no longer keep track of the number of people I now know who are foregoing parts of our best deer season to pursue whitetails in other states. These are hunters who formerly were some of our most dedicated whitetail hunters.

The most frequent statement I hear from these Michigan hunters is, "I can't believe how good the hunting was compared to what we have here. I saw dozens of bucks on the trip and I saw a number of trophy sized deer. I can't wait to go back next year and it will be hard to get excited about hunting here ever again."

I hear this statement (or a similar version) more times each year as the number of Michigan hunters going outstate increases. I can't help but worry that we are shooting ourselves in the foot and yet no one seems to notice or care.

I'd like to know, from an unbiased survey or study, just how much is this costing us in Michigan and how much is it benefiting our neighboring states. I think some people are afraid of the answers to this question.

I'd be a humble man and I'd freely admit I was wrong if someone could show me the data that more hunters were not going out of state and our management methods were not having an adverse impact on our economy and the future of hunting in our great state. :sad:

[RackSmacker]

I went on an unguided hunt in Ill. this past Nov. It was the best few days of hunting Ive ever experienced. We saw mature bucks everyday we were there. I've hunted MI all my life and there is no comparison between the 2. In Ill. we saw more bucks than does, and of those bucks at least half of them were over 100". There is absolutely nowhere in MI that has that kind of ratio and that kind of quality deer. I know you can kill nice deer in MI, ( I've shot afew nice ones in the last few years here) but untill you experience Ill. or one of the other super states, its hard to appreciate how good the hunting really is out there.

[Sib]

I beleive many people in Michigan hunt out of state, the number of winter outdoor extravaganzas geared towards sportsman is a good indication that we make up a substantial outfitter market. Of course, proportionally to the number of hunters in destination states we would naturally have more numbers going out of state, there are 700,000 of us Michigan hunters. I think ultimately it's that high hunter density that is going to keep us different than those destination places. As I said before, I can't speak of hunting out of state, I have no experience, but I can search for a challenging a rewarding hunt here and do it fairly inexpensively. Camp dues are very reasonable in the UP, access in the lower has been developed through relationships and showing my appreciation for the privlege.

I do hope to hunt out of state in the future, as I'm at a point in my life now where financially it's feasible. When I do go it will be for it will strictly be for a 'book' type buck, though I'd never get it scored...I'm a bit to Amish for that. :lol:

Believe it or not, my wife has family in Kansas and they have a farm, but I don't know a thing about where and the quality in the area. I've provided them with a couple favors over the years, so it's probably something I need to pursue. Probably need to start building preference points if I ever plan to hunt there won't I? How long before I guy can a buck tag in KS?

There will always be trophy destination places and there will always be Michigan, because we have our legacy culture and hunter densities that will always keep pressure on our bucks. I pass on most and hunt the one's I feel are worthy and hope others start to do the same. I think it is changing, but our heritage is deeply rooted. We just have to balance camp heritage with availabe science and this is easiest along generational lines, imo. When we went through our major overhaul of camp rules in the UP better than 10 yr ago, it was us younger guys (not so young anymore) :lol: pushing for a 6 or better rule. Even how antlerless permits viewed has change, imo. We are moving in the right direction, but even as we get more selective as a whole, our densities will probably keep us apple to their oranges, but there's still some great challenges, imo.

[beer and nuts]

Can some of you elaborate when you say "unguided hunts" and what that means. Does that mean you hunted on a lease or hunted on private property or hunted under an outfitters land??

Do not get me wrong, I'm not saying MI is better at producing big bucks than other states but in my opinion and what I found in talking with people from these states is a growing trend in outfitters and leases and a steady increase in locals of these states complaining about the public lands(CPR included) being a zoo and the lack of private land they used to have permission to hunt being gobbled up by "the high bidder" and "trophy hunting" outfitters.

SIB-great post. Most guys do not feel they have the time to go after a mature buck in MI(takes to much effort I guess), so outstate hunting is easier and the reward can be a higher scored buck.

[Swamp Ghost]

How do you know outstate is better?

Never been but will find out this fall.

Plenty of friends have gone and say the experience was a breath of fresh air.

[beer and nuts]

Here is some comments from multiple posters on another web site when I asked the questions about Kansas's Walk-In program(private lands open to the public, KS has millions of acre of this stuff) they have and general deer hunting in KS. Again KS has big bucks, but this is basically the same rundown I usually got from realtors-locals-farmers in my research, again I am not going to do the outfitter or leasing stuff, just not my cup of tea and the pricing would never get by the wife anyways. Perspective, just others perspectives.

My advise would be to avoid Kansas like the plauge.

Our Dept of Wildlife has just gotten a bill passed that ends the Licensing of guides in Kansas, so now it's a free for all.

WIHA can be good but you'll need to go to the far west part of the state.

WIHA gets a lot of traffic on it even out there. My best guess is you'd be lucky to shoot any good deer at all on WIHA property.

I am a licensed guide here, have been for years, and I promise you that for the 12 days of gun season I avoid any public access place that anyone could dream of seeing a deer on.

Those are twelve days of insanity.

But, if you really want to come, you best start looking for a landowner to lease some ground from. Expect to pay anywhere from $5.00 to $ 15.00 per acre for the good stuff, especially if you want the landowner to help in applying for tags.

And then you best be prepared for "Billy" from down at the Co-op, along with a truck full of cousin's to be there to road-hunt the area too. Hell, he's been huntin this place for twenty years and anin't no out of state feller gona shoot their deer.

I live here, I'm in the hunting bussiness, and I avoid deer season. That ought to put it into perspective for you.


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12-29-2005, 02:43 PM #3
Jay L
Senior Refuge Member


Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas
Posts: 244 I dont deer hunt, but i will second that i avoid public areas when the season is open. Really dont like the idea of being shot.


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12-29-2005, 02:43 PM #4
RyanLane
Senior Refuge Member




Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Manhattan, KS
Posts: 565 WIHA gets hammered during gun season. Dad and I used to have a great place to deer hunt. Probably as good as it gets. Saw lots of huge deer in there over the years. Well the guy decides to put it in WIHA 4-5 years ago, not the good part of the property just the adjacent part. That ruined the hunting there in a hurry....this opener there were 6 trucks parked there on the side of the road. And this is a small piece of land.

So for WIHA around here at least during rifle season it would be slim pickens.....maybe muzzleloader season would be better w/ less pressure
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12-29-2005, 06:13 PM #5
bandcollector
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kansas
Posts: 287 WIHA land booklets have designations showing species hunted on each piece of property. Some do not allow Firearms deer hunting. Look through the atlas. It should be available online. There was an article in the Wichita paper a few weeks ago. About a group of hunters who hunt somewhere in NW KS on public ground for deer. They used WIHA, Public and Some private ground. They have had some good hunting over the years on the land. The guy had shot a really nice buck this year off some WIHA land I believe. You would have to do some research. But I imagine you could do some good if you put in some time.
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12-29-2005, 10:01 PM #6
ALLSTAR 1
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: missouri
Posts: 90 Go west and further west! Still good hunting to be found with some legwork out there.

Actually, after thinking about it, I should really ask; Why would you and/or your friends want to go to Kansas to deer hunt at all. My brother has lived there for almost 30 years and kills bigger deer in Missouri most of the time. He enjoys the muzzle loader portion but for the rest he would rather pay the non-res. fee to Missouri.
If it is the press on the trophy bucks in KS, those are pretty well on family or leased property. The bloom is definetly off the rose on that angle. KS has relatively poor public land compared to almost any other state; including Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa and of course Missouri.
For what KS charges I won't and haven't bought a rifle tag in the state.
Dont get me wrong. KS folks are generally as nice or nice as anyone and it is possible to have a good hunt but, honestly, not the top spot. What about Sask. or Man. for really big deer?

[farmlegend]

I feel having QDM land is a double edge sword and we often hear about the benefits. One negative from the hunting aspect, imo, is that it often puts the hunter in a border mode. That is, after umpteen dollars spent, a hunter is more attached to a given piece of land and is hell-bent on making that piece of land work. I think the best buck opportunities come from a flexible game plan that keeps a hunter searching for the places big bucks choose to be and not every piece of ground is going to yield the same results even after habitat work. So as much as I've heard that hunters need to keep changing with the times and not doing things as they were 20 years ago, I believe QDMers should take this to heart, too. Because many just keep working that same piece of turf hoping they'll grow ol mossy horns, but from the level of frustration, often displayed in forums like this, it might be time to get out and find the bucks, rather than hope they set up shop on your piece.

You may have a hard time imagining this, Sib, but many of us QDMer's (I can personally name dozens) are land managers first, deer hunters second, and buck hunters third, with neither the time (managing land and holding down a livelihood eat up lots of it) nor desire to traipse around the countryside after a bigger set of antlers.

Seems to me the guys complaining the loudest about their hunting tend not to be QDMer's. QDMer's that happen to manage their land have an ability to influence their hunting in a way that non-land managers do not.

The fact that an apparently increasing number of Michigan hunters are spending their hard-earned dollars on out-of-state hunts is a testament to the poor age structure we have across the broad landscape, a fact which tends to diminish the hunting experience of those non-land managers to a greater degree than what fortunate guys like me experience.

Now, if I were not a landowner, and had to constantly scrap around for places to hunt, I imagine I'd be pretty annoyed at how we manage our deer resource, and would probably spend a good couple weeks each season hunting in other states.

[beer and nuts]

"""The fact that an apparently increasing number of Michigan hunters are spending their hard-earned dollars on out-of-state hunts is a testament to the poor age structure we have across the broad landscape, a fact which tends to diminish the hunting experience of those non-land managers to a greater degree than what fortunate guys like me experience.""""" This question is for anybody. Can you explain why all these outfitters(from Ill to Sask.) have clients from every state in the union and NOT JUST Michigan hunters???? I mean come on, you guys talk like Michigan hunters are the only hunters supplying outfitters across the U.S. Is there an increase, problably, but I woudl bet its an increase across the board. Why does Chicago and Cleveland have some of the biggest outdoor shows in the world and from the great states of Illinois and Ohio!?!?!

I thought the guys last comment from my last post summed up what I have learned in my search for hunting opprotunities outstate.

[username]

I would much rather take a wild big woods UP buck over a farm country out -of -state buck any day. I guess some guys base thier hunt on how many 150 class or whatever bucks with 13 inch tines that bend at a 76 degree angle. And then they rate how their hunt went on how many they saw of these types. The big ones are out there, you just have to work to get them like some already said. Oh yeh, the less hunters in michigan, all the better;)

[NorthJeff]

You can get older bucks in MI...but you have to work much harder, there are many less by age class, and you will witness several times less rutting and mature buck behavior in MI. In many areas in MI there are no older bucks. If you are not seeing large rubs, large scrapes...there are no large or older bucks. That's the differance with out of state hunts. Different attitudes with the locals, and you can see more whitetail behavior in a few days out of state, than in a lifetime hunting in MI. Ask most MI hunters what a snort-wheeze is and most won't have a clue...because they have never heard one, which is testament to our poor buck age structure and lack of competition for breeding rights.

This is the way I do it. I manage my habitat and the local deer herd in the U.P...but I leave the state to do my serious hunting. I greatly enjoy managing my property in MI, it's just it's easy to recognize the differances in other states so I leave to actually hunt hard. If there are no mature bucks in an area...I don't hunt there. It just comes down to it's too easy in MI for me to get the oldest bucks in the area because they aren't that old, it's not that great of a challenge. On the otherhand, I love matching wits with a truly mature buck and if you take that away...why hunt?

It doesn't matter if you lease property...it's still hunting. You do everything yourself. You scout, hang stands, stay in a local motel or camper..it's the same as owning the land, you just pay substantially less. For most good property lease yearly prices you couldn't make 1 monthly payment, and would probably be less than the yearly taxes. I don't have any sympathy for the locals that have scated free for decades and are bitter because they are being "outbid". Maybe they will need to shift their prorities and realize that the several weeks of recreation on a several hundred thousand dollar property is actually worth something, not to mention the liability to the landowner. Why have any sympathy for someone like that? Can't stand people that think they should get something, for nothing...especially something that is worth so much.

Lease prices will always be relative to land prices. For example, if you can buy it for what you lease it for, or even close..than why not buy it? On the other hand, as land prices increase, taxes increase, so does a lease price.

Anyways, it has to do with quality. Sure, you can work hard and get a 2.5 year old buck every year in MI...but for the same amount of work you can have the challenge and opportunity to hunt herds that include 3.5-4.5 year old bucks or better. When you hunt those herds you actually hear snort-wheezing, hundreds of rubs, many, many scrapes, fighting, scars on bucks, ripped ears, broken antlers and basically all the mystic that goes along with hunting a herd with an older age structure. Unfortunately, here in MI many hunters never get to experience what an older age structure is like to hunt....unless they leave the state. Rest assured, you don't get on the midwest forums and find guys from OH, IN, WI, ILL, MN coming to MI to hunt their lease, or with a guide, and rarely on public land. Of course they are out there, but they don't come to MI for serious hunting. On the other hand, 1000s leave MI because the recognize the differances in quality. I hunt in PA every year on public land at a cheaper rate than many spend for bait alone in MI....and the hunting is much better.

I look at MI as the minor leagues, and the surrounding Midwest states as the majors. There are some that are content to stay and play in the minor leagues, and there are those that look forward to participating in the majors. And, once you get a taste of the major league, there is no looking back.

[Swamper]

B & N - depends on how you define "better hunting".

Seeing more deer, better weather, bigger bucks, more bucks, better scenery, safer hunting, fewer hunters, more public land, types of hunting- still, drives, with dogs, etc, tradition of deer camps, number of deer allowed to be taken.

I would suspect that different states and regions of the countries offer advantages over others in each of the above categories.

Swamper

[username]

So you are saying that a buck over 4.5 old is pretty much nonexistint in michigan? Go to an area that is road free or low deer densities and hike a half mile or so into the woods of the beaten path and you will find mature buck sign. Sure there is not 10 or more "trophy" bucks trotting around, fighting etc, not even 10 deer per sq. mile where I am. But from what I observe it is a healthy herd. (buck sign of all age classes etc.) I am not trying to stick up for michigan or anything but you are talking like its impossible.
And yes I have heard a snort -wheeze.

[beer and nuts]

Good Lord its getting very deep in here!! Greatest hunters in the world must hunt outstate, because you go and shoot a 4.5 year old outstate you compare it to hunting the impossible. Bagging a 4.5 years old in some of those states is easier than shooting a 2.5 year old in MI.

"""You can get older bucks in MI...but you have to work much harder,......" -that sums it up. I guess "harder" is in the eye of the beholder. Is it easier/"harder" to just pay a couple thoudsand dollars for an oustate lease/outfitter and pick which 125 class buck to shoot...I understand completely....and yes, I know NJ you put in time to plant food plots and scout...we all know that from him! He is the exception we know, there is no mature bucks around for him so he doesn't hunt in the UP...because its too easy for him to harvest a 2.5 year old.

"""Rest assured, you don't get on the midwest forums and find guys from OH, IN, WI, ILL, MN coming to MI to hunt their lease, or with a guide, and rarely on public land. Of course they are out there, but they don't come to MI for serious hunting. """--well, again preaching like its the gospel. Ever been to the west side of the UP Jeff, serious hunting puts you into the elite class I guess!!! It seems in Menominiee Co. there can be more license plates from Ill and WI running around on opening day then MI, and I know a couple of real big farms that prodcue huge bucks every year that are leased to ILL guys. Sure they they come to the MI to deer hunt BUT they also go to SD, KS, ND, MO to deer hunt too! I would bet they get a pretty good flux of outstate guys down in the southern half of SLP too during gun and I bet they have leases too.

Maybe we need a split in the forums, one for the serious hunter only and then one for guys like me that are not serious hunters:confused:

""""I don't have any sympathy for the locals that have scated free for decades and are bitter because they are being "outbid". Maybe they will need to shift their prorities and realize that the several weeks of recreation on a several hundred thousand dollar property is actually worth something.."""--wow, its guys like this that are destroying the deer hunting heritage across this nation. If you think this is deer hunting and what constitutes the meaning of "scouting"--driving around looking for the best land, first asking permission to hunt and when the landowners says no we have the locals down the street hunting and you(outfitters/outstaters/etc..) turn around and offer the high-end lease dollar at the guy, yup and you wonder why the local hunters of KS are slowly becoming bitter at outstaters(as an example). Happening all the time in MI too. I do not have any problems with the farmer excepting the money-its his livelyhood, nor do I have any problems with guys that lease, what I have a problem with is this is becoming the rule rather than the exception and we are slowly running out of deer hunters. My opinion, that this is the biggest(not the only) reason the number of deer hunters are dwindling, lack of places to hunt and if you do not have the cash you might be out of luck!

[NorthJeff]

No, if you walk into the woods a 1/2 mile in a lot of areas on public land up here you will not find mature buck sign because they were drawn a mile or more to bait piles as yearlings and shot. There used to be that type of age structure, but now that is not the case except for some of the most remote areas of the U.P. In fact, you can walk sometimes for a mile or more and not find a rub, depending on where you are hunting. I have 8 game cameras that take thousands of photos from April to January and I can't say I've ever captured a 4.5 year old buck or older either on private land, or public. 75-80% of the harvest in MI is yearling bucks for a reason...they make up a huge percentage of the herd.

A 2.5 year old buck is a realistic target in most areas of MI, but you could wait a lifetime in most areas for a 3.5 year old or older. Again the differances between MI and the other states is significant and as someone that has hunted out of state 14 different years in 4 other states, and as many as 3 other states a year you just can't imagine the differances until you see for yourself. Just in PA, I'd rather hunt 1 day for PA rifle, than the entire 2 weeks in MI.

Guys will continue to leave MI at higher and higher rates as they continually recognize and appreciate the differances. At the same time, guys will continue to defend MI's mediocrity because it's all they know. It's a shame we've become so complacent with mediocrity in MI.

[NorthJeff]

B&N,

The hypocritical thing is you apparently have no problem for someone to pay $400,000 for hunting land to own...but for some bandwagon reason you have a problem with a group of guys paying $3000 to lease the same property. This is the same mentality of low-life scums that expect the government to pay their way through life because the have been "disenfranchized". You get what you pay for in life...and if you want it for free, you won't get much. If the MI hunters and herd were managed better, to offer the kinds of hunting that is available in other states, you wouldn't have hunters flocking to the surrounding states to hunt.

You ignorance obviously leads you to believe that a lease and an outfitter is the same thing because you include them together. This could not be further from the truth. Leasing private property is no different than working for a farmer for the weekend...it's an exchange of value. You have to do the rest.

As far as serious hunting goes, to me, that includes being able to experience everything hunting has to offer, and every thing hunting has to demand to be consistantly successful at a high level of hunting experience. You are severely limited in MI unless you own a large chunk of private land and most of the time you have to have neighbors that are on the same page as well.

Again the differances are staggering. Hunting out of state allows you to expand your skills, expand your knowledge, expand your experience levels because of the quality level of the herd. You just have to experience it to see for yourself.

I get sicky of the whinny people that are down on guys that appreciate higher levels of quality and are willing to sacrifice to leave and find it. The guys that are seeking quality are the ones that are at the same time trying to increase the level of quality back home. And then you have that group of nagging individuals that love to shoot their mouth off...but do absolutely nothing to better themselves or their hunting experiences. It's because of them that MI will continually be mired in mediocrity in a foggy haze of disbelief.

If what MI has is all you want and expect...GREAT! I have no problem with that. But, do not cut-down the guys that are willing to work hard, have different priorities, and seek a higher level of hunting experience. Leasing isn't ruining hunting...but low expectations and complacent medicrity is a cancer that is infecting a lot of MI hunters. It's no different than people expecting more when they fish. At first many are happy with a small pond and a lot of little fish, but eventually that small pond gets a little boring and you can't blame people that are willing to buy a bigger boat and graduate to larger bodies of water, with higher qualities of fishing experience. There is no problem if you are happy and continue to want to fish in a small pond, with small fish...but don't blame the guys that are willing to put their time and money into a higher level of experience.

[Ed Spin04]

Are there mature big bucks in Michigan? Of course there is but as a few have posted they are not here in a number that they would be if our herd was managed to be more natural. When 80% of all the bucks taken are yearlings, how can there be a natural buck age structure.

There is a reason we see few mature bucks. They are very few out there and this is due to the present deer management system in place. Will you see mature bucks if you hunt harder and smarter? Of course, but you will see even many more if we had sound and scientific deer management in Michigan, (propolsal "G").

FL hit on an important fact. Deer hunters that own their land and want something better tend to do something about it. They improve the deer balance picture and work on the habitat. Will good habitat, with much nutritious year round forage available influence deer movement and improve the hunters experience. That's like asking if you like gorgeous females, and for you gals asking if Brad Pitt turns you on.

A little story may help. I bought 80 acres in Clare County. in 1974 and farmed it till 1996. The back 15 acres was pretty good deer country but 15 acres doesn't do it for me for I was a member of an 18,000 acre hunt club in Roscommon county, (Mid Forest Lodge). I bought an adjoining 80 in 1992 and this was all good deer country. It and the other adjoining land owners of 2 square miles is as good as one could want. The 80 I bought was originally a 120 acre piece and my farmer neighbor a mile back of me bought the remaining forty for his hunting pleasure for it touched land he already owned.

Well, Rollie, (the new owner of that last forty) said to me in 1992 after the deer season, "Ed I bought that land expecting to see deer and I do but not so many". I said to skeptic Rollie, " Well, I intend to do some habitat changes that includes a few acres of a variety of food plots on my new eighty and Rollie I have been leaving a few acrs of corn or soybeans stand through the winter for years on my original eighty and I see many deer out there in the winter".

In 1995 the day after the firearm opener I visited rollie at his deer cabin, (many farmers have a cabin in the woods and stay there during the season even though their farmhouse is in view). and asked him how it was going?

Rollie was all smiles and said, " Ed, you son of a gun, what have you been doing, I saw at least fifteen differant bucks yesterday in fact I stopped counting"! I said that I figured that you saw a few bucks, (I saw twelve) for most of them passed me up and went in your direction, (Rollie 's blind is only 250 yards from my blind). Rollie noted that I didn't shoot at any of them and wonderd why. Same reason Rollie, you didn't shoot any of those fifteen bucks.

In 2003 Rollie shot the biggest buck of his life as the brute crossed into his land from mine. My son Steve kicked it up after lunch opening day as he went to his blind, (my old blind). My son is still kicking something soft, but not deer.

You can as FL hinted, control your hunting experience.

[Swamper]

Is there any recognized data showing how many hunters are leaving MI for other states and reason why? Thought I saw somewhere the number of hunting licenses sold in total each year has remained steady or increased. Perhaps as individuals' personal economic situations improve, they choose to add out of state hunts, while continuing to hunt MI. We all may know one or two people who are now hunting out of state that did not before, but a trickle does not make a tide.

I suspect that some persons may trash the hunting in this state as a means to achieve a different agenda, as well as trash other styles of hunting, hunting beliefs, etc. That becomes evident when some of the same persons freely admit they don't want any more hunters in their area.

Swamper

[Ferg]

Scott - Jeff -

Post your opinions but please refrain from the insinuated name calling and personal attacks.

I don’t want to have to shut this down –

Thanks

ferg....

[beer and nuts]

No there is no data that I have ever seen supporting how many hunters leave this state to deer hunt. I would beleive its the same percentage that other states have seen with their hunters taking an outstate trip, and only because of the increase in popularity of scoring bucks, book bucks, time/effort for the working business guy now, influence of TV shows,etc..

NJ-you have put yourself on a higher pedestal than most hunters by the bucks you chase. """"I get sicky of the whinny people that are down on guys that appreciate higher levels of quality and are willing to sacrifice to leave and find it."""" Has nothing to do with me or others getting down on you or other guys trying to find quality, but its preaching and the higher and mighty attitudes of you and others trying inact your beliefs on others and then totally trying to destroy Michigan as a hunting state because they lack the bucks you pursue and the way others hunt.

Sorry Ferg, typing while you were, but if this post is considered that please delete.

[username]

No? Do you hunt every square foot of the UP and put cameras there? All I am saying is that there are isolated areas that do not get much hunting pressure(if any) and the deer have a chance to grow. With some work you can find these areas and really enjoy hunting it. Yes we do need to manage our herd better if we want every hunter with little skill and effort to be able to take quality bucks. I have no problem with antler restrictions, ban baiting, habitat improvement, etc. I am all for that. Just because one does not witness it first hand does not mean it does not exist.

[Swamper]

All one needs to look at is the Comm Bucks of MI book and see there are big bucks in this state. Granted they are in the southern LP and UP, but they exist. We just need to be willing to work for them,and not expect to see them from our doorstep or living room window over a pile of bait.

I suspect many of the hunters who go elsewhere go for a variety of reasons as I mentioned earlier. Its often part of a vacation getaway mindset - away from the daily worries, see a different part of the country, etc.



Swamper

[NorthJeff]

I never said those areas do not exist...in fact they are becoming more of a reality on my own property every year. I can name at least 3 regions of the U.P. that you can hunt for older bucks on public land because of the remoteness you talk about. But, I like to look at the big picture for all hunters in MI...not just myself, and when you do, you see that we have some catching up to do compared to many other states in terms of quality hunting opportunities. It's not that I wish for someday that everyone shoots 3.5-4.5 year old bucks...just that they have the opportunity to do so on more of a consistant basis than finding the few remote areas in the state that might have one for every square mile or two. Also, those areas with 4.5 year old bucks and older in MI are extremely rare. No, we will never get it to a point where it will be easy for everyone to hunt a true mature buck..and if it was that easy it would take the fun and challenge out of it, but there are certainly things that can be done to increase the overall quality overall.

I guess my biggest beef is the ignorance out there that leaving the state is a bad thing, or it is unjustified. Let's face it, hunters are beginning to see the differances, and are willing to pay for those differances. For myself for example..I'd live in a mobile home with no property before I don't go hunt in other states to take part in a quality hunt, with a quality herd. I don't golf, don't bowl, don't play ball, don't smoke, and don't go through a case of beer every week...some guys do those things and then say they don't have the money to hunt elsewhere. It's about priorities and being content. If you want to spend all you money playing golf, don't complain you have no money to hunt out of state, or blame those that do, you made your choice and you should be fine with that. I'm content with my own property, and am content with hunting out of state. My true desire is for not only to hunters to recognize the differances, but to take part in improved hunting in the state of MI.

[Ed Spin04]

Ferg, Please don't fall for the trap that's been set for you.

Some on this site have a personal agenda and it's very obnious that they have a hate for anyone that goes out of their way to improve the welfare of the deer and their habitat, (which in turn improves their own hunting experiences). They just don't like to hear the success stories of those who invest time and money to make things better.

I have a personl quest to improve the habitat on public land and have had that agenda forever. I hunted for the first time in 1952 for deer and on public land. I continued to hunt on public land for 21 more years for deer and still do for rabbits, pats etc. Now it is payback time for the many pleasures I experienced hunting on public land.

Hopefully with the knowledge gained from decades of trying to get no-till forage to grow on light soil we just may be able to get something to grow as a perennial and grow forever without replanting.

Some of you may of read my article in a recent WNW issue of our effort to get perennials to grow in some really poor state soil in Gladwin County. Well, hopefully due to some pretty good positive results we can get a series of demonstrations throughout state land with the cooperation of the DNR, MSU, NRC and a host of conservation organizations. With these demonstrations, (may take ten years) we will be looking for answers to be positively sure we do it right when we get the train moving for real efforts throughout our state land.

You would not believe the negative statements I recieve for pushing that big picture of public land improvement. I guess you just can't please some people.

I do get frustrated at times hearing the naysayers put good ideas down, with nothing positive to offer in return and then I look into their soul and am super glad I don't carry their burden.

[holzy]

Speaking of comm. bucks of Michigan, I recently received the new copy of Michigan big game records and took a good look at the information for many of the UP counties. It was very apparent that at least 70% of the bucks entered (key to commemorative bucks of Michigan, one must voluntarily enter their buck) were from the 1980's or earlier?? Hmmm, the days of one buck limit and fewer hunters?

To get back on subject, from my personal observations, most individuals that I personally know that are serious whitetail hunters, hunt somewhere other than Michigan EVERY YEAR. They do purchase Michigan licenses as well. Without pulling data from some major states such as Illinois, Iowa, Ohio, and Wisconsin (Canada too) to show the yearly trend of Michigan residents purchasing licenses, it would be extremely difficult to determine how many people actually leave the Great Lakes state to deer hunt. I don't feel that this trend will effect the number of Michigan resident licenses sold though, only failing to introduce our youth to this wonderful past-time will do this.

[NorthJeff]

Holzy,

I'm sure there are official numbers somewhere, but by most local accounts of guys I know that have been hunting for the past 40-50 years around here, there are less hunters. Also, we used to be able to shoot 4 bucks up here...2 with bow, 2 with rifle. Consider this, in 10 total U.P. rifle seasons I've never seen another hunter on public land.

It's no coincendence that baiting started heavy in the early 80's.

[Ferg]

This isn't my first rodeo Ed - ;) - But; those that post in management know too well NOT to get personal - BOTH SIDES - of any issue - stick to your facts and opinions but keep your personal opinions about other(s) and their believes/opinions out of it - and we'll not have a problem.

ferg....

If you want to see what happens when you let that happen visit the trout threads :yikes: :yikes: :lol: :lol: Keep those guys over there - !

[username]

I have no problem with people that want to hunt out of state. But what can we do to improve hunting if we do not own any land??? I hunt public land and its a blast. But if I ever wanted to buy some of it in the area I hunt, if its even for sale(I dont think it is),it would cost me hundreds of thousands to millions to buy it .

[NorthJeff]

Username,

It's very tough on public land to improve your hunting...it can only be by regulation. AR's, public land habitat management, accurate and appropriate doe harvest, elimination of baiting, maybe even public land food plots paid for by public land user fees by non-hunters, but anything that can be done on public land has to be regulated. That's why many choose to go out of state. I'm not saying you can't find a great spot to hunt on public land in MI...but those areas are few and far between and it's sad that hunters in MI have gotten so used to mediocrity they think it is the norm. A MI public land hunt pales in comparison to the quality of a PA public land hunt and in 13 years of hunting public land in PA, I personally see a lot more hunters. If I was living in lower MI and did not have much time, or much money, I'd save up and drive to NE to Ncentral PA and hunt on public land instead of venturing north to hunt northern MI public lands. In fact, a 6-7 hour drive from lower MI will put you in some very good public land hunting in MI, and best of all, you can leave the bait at home! There is no comparison. I wish all could experience it so that can recognize what we have here in MI, compared to other states. Even down on public land in WI this year the group I know of got 4 mature bucks for 5 guys in just a few days. I also have friends that travel to hunt public lands in OH and over to IA that have incredible opportunities compared to MI, and other than the license, they spend just as much as the would if they were traveling to the U.P. and when you consider they don't buy bait, it's probably a wash. Guys leave because they recognize the differances..you can't blame them.