If feeding hurts elk, how can it help deer?

[Tom Morang]

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060105/GPG0204/601050465/1233

Jan 5, 2006

Pat Durkin column:

Green Bay Press

If feeding hurts elk, how can it help deer?

Reports from the elk restoration area around Clam Lake suggest most people willingly stop feeding deer when DNR wardens and biologists knock on their doors and explain that their handouts inadvertently kill elk that learn to panhandle.

We pause to note Wisconsin prohibits feeding elk, but legislators who legalized deer baiting and feeding in 2003 apparently didn't realize elk are notorious for not reading instructions. As a result, many elk from the state's experimental herd -- estimated at 113 animals -- are colliding with vehicles and breaking through ice and drowning while on their way to grub food in people's back yards.

That's just for starters. Warning: What follows will turn some tummies.

Biologists also believe artificial feeding sites have become hot zones for liver flukes and brain worms. When deer and elk concentrate at feed sites, they defecate and ingest each others' feces while eating food off the ground, thus transmitting parasites to each other.

Liver flukes seldom kill deer or elk unless the critters ingest gross amounts of the larvae. Evidence suggests that's exactly what happens at feeding sites. Some elk eat so many fluke larvae they eventually weaken and die from illnesses they would normally survive if their livers weren't squirming with the parasites.

Flukes sound bad, but brain worms are worse. Although brain worms kill elk outright, they're mere irritants for whitetails. Brain-worm larvae congregate near a deer's spinal column and eventually migrate into its lungs. The deer then coughs them up, swallows and digests them and passes them in their feces.

Elk and moose aren't so lucky. Brain-worm larvae don't go for their lungs. Instead, they migrate into the animal's spinal cord and brain, stay there while growing and eventually kill their host.

It's difficult to know how many elk die of liver flukes and brain worms each year because some are killed by wolves or die of other diseases. Plus, if they aren't found right away, or if they die in summer, they'll usually decompose before they can be examined.

Even so, during the past 10 years, the DNR has linked at least 18 elk deaths to elk/deer feeding activities, with most confirmed deaths coming from crashes or drowning. Besides the handful of brain-worm and liver-fluke deaths that appear linked to feeding, evidence suggests the feeding sites also leave elk more susceptible to wolf predation.

Like any predator, wolves prefer target-rich environments. Given the right opportunity, wolves will take on an elk -- young or old, healthy or weakened.

All told, 17 elk fell to various factors in 2004-05, and we've lost 13 halfway through 2005-06. Given all those factors, it's no wonder most people in the elk's core area around Clam Lake quit feeding wildlife when contacted by the DNR.

Meanwhile, how about the obvious question: If feeding deer is causing so many problems for our small elk herd, what's happening to our abundant deer herd? Granted, whitetails can shed brain worms, but they're just as susceptible as elk to liver flukes, drowning, car crashes and -- shriek -- wolf predation.

This is yet another reason why it's difficult to take people seriously when they claim artificial feeding helps whitetails and that wolves are destroying the North's deer herd. If wolves have depopulated the forests, why do so many people buy shelled corn for deer?

Meanwhile, expect no help from clever legislators like Sen. Russ Decker, D-Schofield. Decker recently wrote to DNR Secretary Scott Hassett, encouraging him to transplant wolves to southern Wisconsin to help handle chronic wasting disease.

I guess he thinks he's funny, but Sen. Decker and the elk-feeding issue prove a maxim: The less people know about wildlife (elk, in this case), the more they listen and learn.

In contrast, the more people think they know about wildlife (deer and wolves), the less they listen -- and the more their mouths showcase their foolishness.

Patrick Durkin is a free-lance writer who covers outdoors for the Press-Gazette. E-mail him at patrickdurkin@charter.net

[swampbuck]

I wonder whats happening to our elk with all the baiting up there.

on a side note, I was at a party at the r.a.m. center last night and they have the original thank you letter and plaque from wisconsin for the 25 elk we gave them to start their herd. its hanging in a hallway there.

[retinlew]

I don't understand why with everything negative that has been said about baiting that we as serious deer hunters don't ask for its complete ban statewide. It would seem to me that spending our money on creating food plots would be more worthwhile. :rolleyes:

[farmlegend]

I don't understand why with everything negative that has been said about baiting that we as serious deer hunters don't ask for its complete ban statewide.

Bingo. Eventually, the practices of baiting and supplemental feeding of deer will end. As I see it, here are our choices:

A. Hunters take the lead in campaigning for and end to baiting and supplemental feeding; or

B. hunters wait for the general non-deer-hunting public (93% of Michigan's population) to end baiting/feeding whether the hunters like it or not.

I'm convinced that we hunters will appear as more responsible stewards of the resources if we choose route "A". Route "B" would add to the perception that hunters are most interested in making it as easy as possible for hunters to harvest deer, without regard to resource health.

[NorthJeff]

There are some extreme circumstances where I wonder if supplemental feeding does support a deer herd, or at least a sustainable herd in high winter mortality, low quality winter habitat areas, but even in the U.P. those areas are few and far between.

On the otherhand, I've personally been to a home in Shingleton where 20% of the deer herd was killed by predators as deer lived in open hardwoods all winter waiting for a handout of daily corn from the landowner. In fact, the homeowner bragged of shooting over 20 coyotes from his porch that year. I've often wondered, was he feeding deer, or coyotes? I've actually always hoped the deer from my local area never made it to feeding areas in the winter. Might help, might not, but concentrated deer over bait piles sure seems like a recipe for a lot of dead deer during winter. Does it even out in the end?....those that live due to the food, and those that die due to increased predation, vehicle accidents? I don't know how anyone can say for sure.

I still consider this point pretty mute though...I predict in the next 2-3 years we will have CWD within 50 miles of our borders, all baiting and feeding will be elminated, and we'll never look back. Our kids, grandchildren, and their kids will look back and wonder why in the world we ever baited in the first place. I know in PA when I talk to guys they are shocked we can bait in MI and can't imagine ever hunting with bait.

[GRUNDY]

What would you think if your were a non hunter and saw hunters and DNR alike talkng out of both sides of our mouths. Baiting bad for elk but O.K. for deer. Don't feed the bears, it trains then to go to people for food, but it's O.K. to throw a baitpile full of donuts and other garbage(people food) out to hunt them. That is inconsistency, and looks very bad to the non hunting public, who undoubtedly decide, through voting, if we as hunters can hunt at all. A perfect example is the vote on the dove hunting issue.

The hunting community needs to get it's act together or risk losing credibility all together.

Brian

[farmlegend]

Grundy, you've got my vote!:D

[Adam Waszak]

What a mess everytime you turn around there is another thing or disease threatening the deer in this and other states. It is scary if NJ is correct and we get CWD that fast here. I wonder what the remedy will be for that other than elimination like we tried to do for the TB. There is a culture of baiting to hunt inthis state and that is why there is so much resistance I am guilty of it too and I admit it. But there are so many people out there that are baiting year in and year out that it would be tough to get the hunters to be the unified front on this issue. But the articel is correct elk don't know if the bait is off limits to them or not if there are elk and deer in the same area they will all eat it.

AW

Grundy you want some FL 06 bumper stickers like I proposed?:lol:

[skipper34]

The DNR did a survey a few years back and the results from the survey were that the majority of Michigan hunting license purchasers(I refrain from referring to them as hunters for a reason)were in favor of baiting for deer. I am afraid that Farmlegend's plan B will be the deciding factor.

[username]

Ban baiting yes! Supplemental feeding NO WAY! They have been supplemental feeding in some UP areas for 50-60 years or more and never had a problem.

[CL-Lewiston]

I had the pleasure ?? of hitting 3 deer while driving to my job over 33 years. Two of the three were coming from or going to someones feeder. I suppose I should have driven slower.

[Tedd]

In business, if a manufacturer wants to introduce a new brand variety of say, venison-flavored toothpaste, they don't manufacture enough of the product to flood every market they serve. Rather, they make just enough if it to distribute it into a specific region(s) in order to gauge consumer acceptance and purchase response. In other words, they do a TEST! If the test is successful, they go forward to selling the stuff in new, expanded markets. If not, the all huddle together to find out what went wrong. Maybe they'll re-introduce it with some variance, or they'll kill the idea and write it off as a bad test where nobody really got hurt that badly.

Right now, in this State, we are indeed conducting a "test" as it relates to the deer baiting issue. In this case however, the product is already on the shelves and mass marketed everywhere; deer bait. And, fortunately or unfortunately, as you see it, it is what we call, a "fully-matured brand" that sustains itself with very little advertisement or brand reinforcing. Why? Because it has been around so long, nobody really thinks twice about buying it--even though it could be bad for you in the long run.

It's sort of like the leading brand of soup in this country that contains enough salt in each can you can float an anvil. Today, we all have information to know that too much salt is a bad for you. But, we still buy the stuff, the same way your grandma did, the way your mother did and, you still do! Well, deer-baiting in Michigan is that fully mature brand that is hard to withdraw from.

Suddenly, the manufacturer (DNR) learns from all types of external sources, that their products (policy surrounding baiting) are wrong and these have both short-and long-term effects on the resource they sell to or manage (deer). So, in an effort to satisfy both camps, they respond by coming out with new varieties that hopefully keep both groups happy.
This new variety is called "less', as in: "less volume" and "less frequent". In marketing speak; this is called "5-gallon carrot lite"!

The trouble is, even the "lite" variety of this product has very real, severe side-effects; i.e. CWD and TB. As such, the "test" has failed and, it's now back to the drawing board. In the meantime unfortunately, the product remains on the shelf; a time bomb waiting to explode.

For my part, I don't want to wait for the next variety of "baiting lite". The only test that should be conducted now is taking the product completely off the shelves. This will be a tough call because there is a certain, loyal customer base that still wants it, and who purchase it. However, by removing it totally, you have conducted the ultimate, most difficult marketing test there is. It's called: "doing the right thing!"

[GRUNDY]

Grundy, you've got my vote!:D

It's a long story. A.W. could also explain, btw I'll take a sticker! It all came out of the sound off forum:lol: Maybe I'll check that thread next.

I'll vote for you if you'll vote for me

Brian

[Pinefarm]

Don't forget...
C. CWD tests positive within the state borders or within 50 miles of the state borders and baiting and feeding are automatically banned immediately. MDNR rule.
It's a shame, but this is realistically the way it's going to come down.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,%207-153-10366_37141_37705-47115--,00.html

Chronic Wasting Disease and Baiting & Feeding

In the event Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) is documented within Michigan or within 50 miles of Michigan’s border with another state (Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota) or Canadian province (Ontario), the Natural Resources Commission has ordered that the Director shall ban the use of bait and ban all feeding of deer and elk within the peninsula adjacent to the adjoining state or province with CWD or containing CWD.
[as per Wildlife Conservation Order, Section 3.100a]

For more information on CWD, visit the Chronic Wasting Disease page on the Michigan Emerging Disease Issues website.

[fairfax1]

But, gol-dang, it sure is refreshing!

FrmLgnd: "eventually the practices of baiting.....of deer will end". From your lips to God's ears, partner!

NorthJeff: "I predict in the next 2-3 years we will have CWD within 50 miles of our borders..." Who can doubt it? Would that it wasn't so. But, I won't bet against you.

Grundy: [baiting].."looks very bad to the non hunting public, who undoubtedly decide, through voting, if we as hunters can hunt at all."
Amen, brother. Sing it. You have touched my fear......Namely, that voters will vote when they see this resource....loved by so many who don't hunt...seriously endangered by the willful bad practices of the hunting community. It's a train wreck comin'.

NorthJeff: ".....where 20% of the deer herd was killed by predators as deer lived in open hardwoods all winter waiting for a handout of daily corn from the landowner. In fact, the homeowner bragged of shooting over 20 coyotes from his porch that year. I've often wondered, was he feeding deer, or coyotes?"
NJ, what a revealing story. You need to tell that one more often...to as wide an audience as possible.


Tedd: [banning baiting] ".....will be a tough call because there is a certain, loyal customer base that still wants it......... However, by removing it totally, you have conducted the ultimate, most difficult marketing test there is.....doing the right thing".Let's see........Tylenol... swallow-able toys...Corvairs....tainted burger....baiting for deer in Michigan. Yes, yes, I see your point. I'm sold.

I'm gonna vote early ----and often---- for all of you guys I quote above ...in fact, for everybody who has posted above me. This may be the first thread I've seen here that is clearly anti-baiting where some baiter hasn't chimed in (yet) to say: "it's a Michigan Tradition---always dunnit that way---I'll do what I want on my land---if it's so bad why do they sell it in handy bags....it helps the animals." Yadda, yadda, yadda.

[beer and nuts]

As usual I'll play devils advocate. CWD and baiting to this point have never been proven to go hand in hand. TB and baiting have never been proven to go hand in hand ONLY the increased possibility of spreading the disease. Baiting has never been proven to be the cause of any of these diseases and it seems to me this is the way the conversation kinda points too. I will say that the TB and CWD issue has come from agricultural area for the most part open field cow pastures and grazing area---NE Michigan cow areas and in WI the Buffalo Co area which has alot of open field pasture/fields. NOW with that said, should baiting be banned or maybe food plots be banned too and high fences be put up around farmers fields....make sense!?!?!? Its easy to put blame on something alot on here feel want to get rid of anyways because they feel in interrupts there style of hunting or its not their way of hunting..

Looking at where these diseases have been concentrated or have been found-NE MI cow herd areas and Buffalo Co. area-these have one thing in common agricultral/grazing fields/hay fields etc...lets look at banning things related to this type of activity!?!? NO!? Your right, it makes no sense just like the ban baiting arguement, its the escape goat!

[GRUNDY]

If there is an increased possiblilty in spreading the disease, then why in the name of all that is right would we as hunters continue to bait? We try to make it look like we care aout the animals we hunt and we are truly concerned. If that were really true then why are we not walking the walk.

Saying you care about the well being of the deer heard but yet continue a practice that has a high probability of spreading the disease is like saying you love your child smoking is bad, but it is O.K. for you to smoke. It is the inconsistency that looks bad.

If cattle grazing areas are the source of these diseases, and baiting helps propogate the disease then as truly concerned hunters we should be pushing for fencing that would help keep deer and bovine separate AND a reduction/ceasing of baiting,.

No one in this thread has yet said that baiting is immoral, or makes you a bad person. I have baited in the past and might bait in the future as I see fit. But so far as a hunter who is concerned about the deer heard health and how the public percieves hunters I choose not to bait. This makes me consistent in my beliefs, and at the same time a more credible person. I know that is a bold statement, but I stand behind it.

Brian

[Ferg]

Looking at where these diseases have been concentrated or have been found-NE MI cow herd areas and Buffalo Co. area-these have one thing in common agricultral/grazing fields/hay fields etc...lets look at banning things related to this type of activity!?!? NO!? Your right, it makes no sense just like the ban baiting arguement, its the escape goat!

Granted - but would you not agree that IF in fact consentrated eating activities contribute to the SPREAD of such - then baiting would be the easyest to eliminate and most practical?

We are not going to end farming practices nor beef production, period.

So, if TB and/or CWD is spread by direct social feeding in 'close prox' to each other, then a pile of carrots has to be on the top of the list -

Then the next thing will be 'erradication' - not banning of farming or raising beef cattle -

ferg....
The fight must start someplace - in the mean time - I hope they wipe it out before it gets here - but I don't hold up much hope for that -

[NorthJeff]

"They have been supplemental feeding in some UP areas for 50-60 years or more and never had a problem."

Even some experts agree that in certain high winter severity areas like the Keewenau Pen. in the U.P. the winter supplemental feeding may be the only action maintaining a sustainable herd. In those cases I don't know how you could argue against it...but those areas are very few, and very far between.

"and in WI the Buffalo Co area which has alot of open field pasture/fields."

What has been found in Buffalo county?

"NJ, what a revealing story. You need to tell that one more often...to as wide an audience as possible."

I've told it on this site for years...but it has been one of my fears for the local deer herd around my house. Within that same section in the spring of 2001 there was also a friend of mine that was feeding deer across the road from a deer yard. 5 or 6 deer were killed by cars in front of his house in a week as deer crossed the road to eat feed beside his house. He stopped, but the deer were still dead..thankfully no one was hurt.

[beer and nuts]

Baiting has never been proven to be the cause of the spreading of TB or CWD...period. Its been guessed that it could because of socialization bring deer closer together and leaving half ate carrots/beets whatever.....again no different than a scape branch the gets visited by every buck in the area....or a corn field with half ate corn cobs all over the place....or no different than the everyday closer than close, nose to nose social contact deer do 365 days a year.....no different than a buck fight where spit and snot fly all over than place......and not different than 1 acres food plots that gets visited everyday by numerous deer(at least 99% of bait piles get ate up within 2 days).....people have said it on here before baiting takes place what??....maybe the the heaviest 3-5 days a year and by Nov. 20th most are dried up and gone.....baiting is an escape goat theory!

Buffalo Co I thought was the heart of the CWD outbreak in WI, at least in the SW corner of the state.

Why did the deer cross the road? I'm sure no deer ever get killed crossing the road to a food plot....nope only to bait piles......plant food plots...than we will have no deer crossing the roads!

Ferg...baiting is not the problem...your trying to fix the problem with the wrong tool. But IF we are going to go there than we need to BAN the activitiy of creating food plots...maybe limit the food plots to 20 acres or bigger....how about aplying for a permit to create food plots....just to make sure we are not creating a "concentrated area of feeding" by allowing these 1/2 to 3 acre food plots dotting properties now. Also, "social feeding" or baiting has already been curbed by the 2 gallon rule in place, all bait piles are consumed within a night...and also why stop there when we all know the majority of deer in MI are located in private lands..maybe we can outlaw baiting and "food plots up to 20 acres" on ONLY private lands., make sure we get salt and apple licks too....I've heard the choir on here talk about salt licks they place out in the early spring.....no more mock scapes either concentrates deer into licking the established branches every night....also when you see a real deer scrape make sure you destroy it thats IF you really care about the health of the deer.....

Grundy..."""" Saying you care about the well being of the deer heard but yet continue a practice that has a high probability of spreading the disease is .." wow wow wow now its HIGH probability????

IF you really think baiting is the #1 reason TB and CWD is the spread of the disease.....wouldn't you think the DNR would BAN baiting and the sale of bait and/or increase the fines etc...YES they would, but its unproven and frankly the know it has nothing to do with it...but its a good PR escape goat in NE Michigan....satisfying the hunters and the public. I can not remember does WI still allow baiting??

[Tedd]

You have to remember, the DNR serves ALL camps, those who are proponents of baiting and those that are opposed. They walk a very tight line. However, as my earlier post states, once they (DNR) unconditionally discover that "carrot-lite" is just as bad as the regular brand, both will be off the shelves in no time flat. They may even do that beforehand, as other outside influences emerge.

And, I think in your message that you wanted to use the word Scapegoat: "One who bears the blame for the mistakes of others" versus "Escape Goat" which is a small animal that has fled its pen. :)

[beer and nuts]

Scapegoat yes, thats the word not escape goat. But what is "carrot-lite"? Thats not a dietary deer supplement that Ed Spin. has come out with for a healthier food plot, is it?!?!?

[GRUNDY]

B&N, how would it look to you if you were a non hunter? TB is spread from one deer to the next by inhaling mucous from an infected deer. The most common way is a sneeze were mucous is spread out into the air much like an aerosol can. When this happens with other deer in close proximity the other deer are then at risk of inhaling the infected aerosol. A bait pile is one method were deer are concentrated very close to one another, close enough to inhale the infected aerosol. Yet hunters seem to condone an activity that is harmful to the deer we are trying to convince the public we care so much about.

Yes deer feeding in fields could infect one another, but a bait pile definitely leads deer into a situation where TB could easily be spread. A ban on baiting would be a very easy way to get rid of at least one way to transmit the disease. High fences around grazing grounds salt licks apple licks and anything put out by humans that will concentrate deer VERY close to one another should also be looked at as ways to prevent the spread.

Food plots are as much a risk of spreading TB as is the corn field down the road, as is the natural oak savanna.

I'm just saying that huters need to be on the same page to gain credibility in the eyes of the general public or we will lose what we have.

I've taken my swings at the dead horse, who's next?

Brian

[Tedd]

Scapegoat yes, thats the word not escape goat. But what is "carrot-lite"? Thats not a dietary deer supplement that Ed Spin. has come out with for a healthier food plot, is it?!?!?

Suddenly, the manufacturer (DNR) learns from all types of external sources, that their products (policy surrounding baiting) are wrong and these have both short-and long-term effects on the resource they sell to or manage (deer). So, in an effort to satisfy both camps, they respond by coming out with new varieties that hopefully keep both groups happy.
This new variety is called "less', as in: "less volume" and "less frequent". In marketing speak; this is called "5-gallon carrot lite"!

The trouble is, even the "lite" variety of this product has very real, severe side-effects; i.e. CWD and TB. As such, the "test" has failed and, it's now back to the drawing board. In the meantime unfortunately, the product remains on the shelf; a time bomb waiting to explode!


By the way, did your goat return yet?:)

[NorthJeff]

B&N,

CWD has never been in Buffalo County, in fact, it's at least 2 hours drive to the south and east to the nearest outbreak. In fact, we are in Vernon County, which is 2 counties south of Buffalo and we are out of the zone as well.

BTW, most people don't plant food plots in their driveway....;)

[beer and nuts]

Grundy, no doubt banning baiting MIGHT(again very unproven, its basically a theory) be one control in the process of slowing down a disease BUT looking at the big picture, the majority of baiting is done in such a short time frame(1 week) except for the few that have places baited Oct to Dec., that I really think we are trying to isolate this possble one means of spreading a disease into the biggest problem. To sit there and for some to say lets ban baiting, cause its a start right, I'm saying lets not just start it, lets go from start to finish. """Yes deer feeding in fields could infect one another, but a bait pile definitely leads deer into a situation where TB could easily be spread. A ban on baiting would be a very easy way to get rid of at least one way to transmit the disease. High fences around grazing grounds salt licks apple licks and anything put out by humans that will concentrate deer VERY close to one another should also be looked at as ways to prevent the spread."""""-Grundy. The above makes no sense to me. Ban baiting but lets look at the other possible methods of spreading a disease later?!?!? If a food plot is an artifial way to concentrate deer in an area than that too MUST be banned. Nor should one care if a food plot is less likely to spread than a bait pile...thats a unproven statement, considering a food plot concentrates deer from May to Dec., remember some members on here cheering how deer were pawing away in the food plots and pawing away the snow, take a look at those areas concentrated pawing areas you think its just one deer pawing away and browsing in those little areas!?!? Ban baiting, its a start but do not come down on those trying to push for the other possible means that deer are being artificially concentrated.

NJ-yup looked that up. Got my counties mixed up it was Dane Co. in SW WI.

Nope my goat did not come home, in fact I believe he was out grazing on my neighbors food plot and he shot him cause he did not want any farm animals spreading TB to his deer via the half browsed clover!!!

[Tedd]

Nope my goat did not come home, in fact I believe he was out grazing on my neighbors food plot and he shot him cause he did not want any farm animals spreading TB to his deer via the half browsed clover!!!

Well, if that's the case, then I figure that your neighbor has got your goat, both in fact and manner.:lol:

[NorthJeff]

B&N,

Nose to nose contact has been proven to spread disease...but not deer feeding in ag or food plots. If you banned food plots for deer because of some suspect for disease, you'd have to get rid of agricultural fields as well.

The concentration of deer to food plots is no different than acorn stands, orchards, or areas of preferred native browse. However, I can show you areas in the public land around here that have been baited for the past 2 decades that have no lower vegitation, covering an area the size of house around the pile not to mention the lack of leaves and debris for a 15-20 circle around the site. That doesn't happen around food plots that I've seen...big difference.

[Joe Archer]

....TB is spread from one deer to the next by inhaling mucous from an infected deer. The most common way is a sneeze were mucous is spread out into the air much like an aerosol can. .....Brian
Fawns nurse for about 5 months after they are born. TB bacteria has been isolated from doe milk. For five months or longer the doe nuzzles, licks, and cleans the face of her fawns. Nuzzling face to face is common place between mature whitetail as well. I sincerely doubt that baiting really is the culprit that leads to the spread of TB.
<----<<<

[Tedd]

This is a 100% irrefutable medical fact: TB is an airborne carried organism; both in humans and in animals. THAT we know!

By connecting the dots, one concludes that in order to prevent the disease from speading, you minimize the circumstance whereby a heathy person or animal is not in close proximity to a TB carring person or animal. Why? Because all the heathly person or animal simply has to breath the air of the unhealthy person or animal and get the stuff. In the unmanipulated out of doors, the chances of breathing in this organism is quite remote as wind disperses things pretty well, but the risk is still there. However, when two snouts are well, "snout to snout" in a carrot pile (however small it may be) and one of those is a carrier, it is no longer a one in a trillion, trillion rifle shot looking for a bullseye. It is more like a shotgun blast to the face at 3 feet; one of the BB's IS going to hit ya. And, since you're usually breathing, there's also a good chance you'll ingest a few airborn organisns into your lungs. Whalla: a new carrier and the cycle continues.

TB and bait is like the game of craps: no matter how lucky you've been, eventually, and inevitably, you're gonna roll a 7. It is certain, and it is irrefutable. The key to never losing in craps, is to never play.

[Joe Archer]

I guess it depends on the definition of "airborn"
TB needs to be spread in body fluid or secretions.
Anyway, according to "WHO" it is airborn, so I think that is satisfactory for this forum.

TB
disease that is generally transmitted by nasopharyngeal discharges and by respiratory secretions, through coughing and sneezing, though it may also be conveyed through close contact. Respiratory diseases include the common childhood infections, measles, whooping cough, chickenpox, mumps, diphtheria and acute sore throat, as well as diseases of the respiratory tract, influenza and other acute viral infections, the pneumonias, and pulmonary tuberculosis (WHO, 1992).
<----<<<

[beer and nuts]

NJ-"""Nose to nose contact has been proven to spread disease...but not deer feeding in ag or food plots. If you banned food plots for deer because of some suspect for disease, you'd have to get rid of agricultural fields as well.""

Let me get this straight, deer feeding in food plots never come nose to nose nor does a food plot concentrate feeding deer?!? Isn't the whole arguement on ban baiting to minimize(as much as possible) nose to nose on concentrated feeding deer!? Too minimize and take action, of course banning agricultural feeds is out of the question, BUT banning baiting and artificially made food plots(why are food plots created?) is a step to minimize the threat.

Bait piles are 2-gallons and spread out over a 10 foot radius. I can show you a food plot right now than is being pawed up in very small areas and you can see 3-4+ deer standing and eating very close together in 3 foot circle pawed area...this is fact... and I know guys with food plots see this every early and late seasons of the year and thoughout winter(if the snow is not real deep)...there is absoluetly no difference. You ban one ...you ban the other..

[NorthJeff]

"Isn't the whole arguement on ban baiting to minimize(as much as possible) nose to nose on concentrated feeding deer!?"

Not from my angle...not at all. I'm more from the angle of the continued degeneration of hunting cultural and social implications that baiting leads to relative to our hunting heritage, especially in the U.P. I have to admit that I am somewhat unsure of the disease threat with our current baiting practices, especially if the 10' radius and 2 gallon limit is enforced and followed. Disease...unsure. What baiting contributes to our hunting heritage, especially in the U.P., and how a vast majority of hunters now rely almost exclusively on baiting as their only known method of hunting while largely lacking the basic hunting skills associated with non-baiting states....it's sickening too me. Also, I still feel confident that the buck age-structure and overall buck population numbers would improve more with the elimination of baiting, than AR's and a 1 buck license COMBINED. I guess I don't see any problems with the ethics of baiting, and after more than 2 decades of almost an exclusive reliance by hundreds of thousand of hunters in the U.P to baiting...and no resulting diseases, to me I see more the reliance on baiting as the problem, not baiting itself, or the threat of disease. I have honestly heard guys that have said they would quit hunting if their bait was taken away...if that's not a problem I don't know what is! I don't think it's that they love hunting with bait that much, but instead they wouldn't have any confidence without it.

Also, no one could ever legally ban me from planting food plots...I'd be happy to take up farming, who knows might even be some tax advantages to doing so!;)

[luv 2 bowhunt]

What sickens me is that so many of the persons that say that we MUST BAN BAITING, are some of the biggest baiters out there.
MINERALS ARE BAIT TOO.
I know of many persons on the "stop the bait bandwagon", continue to brag in other forums about how much minerals they put out.
And they have them out way before the Oct. 1st rule.
So they are not only baiters, but they are poachers too.

[Tedd]

Moderator...time to close this thread up!

[Whit1]

Also, no one could ever legally ban me from planting food plots...I'd be happy to take up farming, who knows might even be some tax advantages to doing so!;)

Naughty Jeff! Adding THAT debate to this thread.....Go sit in the corner young man!...........:lol:

As far as closing this thread Ted, yes there are some "accusatory nouns", but you haven't been around this forum long enough to have seen some of the past "ACCUSATORY NOUNS". This is quite mild and the guys are behaving with relative congeniality and rationality. (I like big words can ya tell?..........:lol:

However, whenever a mod makes a statement like I just did it seems to only serve to light the fuse...:yikes:

[Joe Archer]

I'm more from the angle of the continued degeneration of hunting cultural and social implications that baiting leads to relative to our hunting heritage, especially in the U.P..

There may be something to consider with this question along with the original question in this thread "If feeding hurts elk, how can it help deer? "

Hunting with bait has survived for decades based on the following logic (especially for bow hunters). Hunters are more likely to wait for a high percentage shot with bait. You see it all over these threads that many archers already feel confident to take 40 yard plus shots at deer. It can not be disputed that banning bait will lead to more crippled and non-recovered deer. Bait helps deer as it helps to increase hunter effeciency.
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[NorthJeff]

What the reliance on baiting has done to our hunting culture is disturbing...and most have gotten so used to it they don't even know the differances. Really, you have guys up here that have NEVER hunted without staring out a hole in a box at a pile of food 50 yards away. The baiting is not the problem. Hunting over bait I feel is ethical and certainly fair chase. But, to see it become the only way the many with decades or more of "experience" know how to hunt, or teach new hunters how to hunt, is a problem. Baiting has lulled us into mediocrity to the point it is become a required and addictive aspect of our hunting culture. "Appleknockers" and "sugarbeaters" used to be negative description of "trolls" or "downstaters" that hunt up here....now it's what we ourselves have become.

[Joe Archer]

What the reliance on baiting has done to our hunting culture is disturbing...and most have gotten so used to it they don't even know the differances. Really, you have guys up here that have NEVER hunted without staring out a hole in a box at a pile of food 50 yards away. The baiting is not the problem. Hunting over bait I feel is ethical and certainly fair chase. But, to see it become the only way the many with decades or more of "experience" know how to hunt, or teach new hunters how to hunt, is a problem. Baiting has lulled us into mediocrity to the point it is become a required and addictive aspect of our hunting culture. "Appleknockers" and "sugarbeaters" used to be negative description of "trolls" or "downstaters" that hunt up here....now it's what we ourselves have become.
Jeff, I think that you might be just a little to critical. The question should be "How satisfying was your hunt", and NOT "how did you hunt the deer". Personally, I see myself advancing to a recurve to pursue deer without bait so I can partake in one of the most challanging (and rewarding) types of hunting available. I still consider myself a blood-brother to the guy that has limited time who baits and spends his time in a box staring out a window. I will listen to his stories intently and I will be glad to share mine. What is right for him may not be for me, and vice-versa. The point (to me) isn't how are we different? The point to me is, How are we alike? I have been succesful hunting with and without bait and I honestly loved each and every hunt. Rather than portraying any hunter in a negetive light, I would much rather sit around a campfire and share the stories and passion that bond us all.
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[NorthJeff]

Joe, I baited this year, I've baited for my father in the past, I encourage others to bait that have no experience or skills...and I consider any hunter who baits "right" in the eyes of ethical and acceptable methods of taking game and always have! But, you have to realize we have produced a culture of hunting up here that in a matter of a couple of decades has developed from none to very little baiting, into a near 100% reliance on bait as the sole method of hunting to the point that some hunters would give up hunting if their bait was taken from them.

For me personally, baiting might be a good thing. I can bait just as effectively as someone else in the area to hold and attract deer. Hunters who use bait rarely are outside of a 200 yards radius from their vehicles and are extremely predictable. Personally, it's probably helped my hunting, even without using it, more than hurt my hunting.

I know guys that do not hunt any more, because they don't want to bait, and they feel they are at too much of a disadvantage if they don't bait. I didn't have these same thoughts 10 years ago, but when it's very hard to find a person that doesn't hunt over bait...I think we have a problem. Nothing against anyone who baits, I think it's ethical, moral, fair-chase, and frankly if some guys don't bait...they probably won't see a deer. Nothing against baiting...just the culture of hunting it has promoted in the U.P. of Michigan.