Unsafe anglers may be fishing for fines [Archive]

Hamilton Reef

12-19-2005, 02:27 PM

Unsafe anglers may be fishing for fines
Ottawa County sheriff considers charging for repeated ice rescues

PORT CLINTON - After nearly 10 months, Ottawa County Sheriff Bob Bratton still bristles when he thinks of the mass rescue of ice fishermen from a floe in Lake Erie off Crane Creek State Park.

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051219/NEWS17/512190316

neil duffey

12-19-2005, 02:51 PM

thats like saying any one who goes sking and falls and get a concusion, and then gets medical treatment and goes sking again will be fined. i understand where they are coming from, but i mean small claims court? arrested? eh what ever, im just proud to say im not one of them num nuts getting rescued so it doesnt matter to me. :rolleyes:

VanillaIce

12-19-2005, 03:14 PM

Unless it's illegal, I don't see how they can "fine" them just for going out.

But, if they need to be rescued, I see nothing wrong with them having to pay to cover the cost. If I go skiiing and get a concussion, I have to pay for the ambulance ride, x-rays, stitches, medication, etc.

Plus, getting medical treatment for a concussion does not risk the life of the medical staff treating me. But, there is often genuine hazard associated with an ice rescue.

Like you, though, Neil, I don't see ever needing to be rescued so it doesn't concern me too much (though, some small portion of my tax dollars ARE going towards the rescues of some of these dudes).

salmonslammer

12-19-2005, 03:21 PM

"If a boater was out there 100 times, we'd save them 100 times if they needed it."

I don't have the hard #'s but I would bet the farm that there is more soft water rescues than for us lowly icefisherman.... Heck, I heard some mullet on LSC last summer hail a "mayday" because he ran out of gas in his "motor yacht." :rolleyes:

fishindude644

12-19-2005, 03:28 PM

I can understand if it is the same people getting rescued over and over but for someone who listened to the weather and wind forcast and then it was wrong (which it is more than half the time) there shouldnt be a charge. if you go fishing on a day with offshore winds at 15 to 20 knts and there is openwater beyond where you are fishing and you use a board to cross a crack to get there then yes you should have to pay. other than that isnt the coast guard paid with our tax money?

Burksee

12-19-2005, 03:29 PM

.............I heard some mullet on LSC last summer hail a "mayday" because he ran out of gas in his "motor yacht." :rolleyes:http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/539/TED.jpg
I didn't know Neal has a yacht!

MSUICEMAN

12-19-2005, 03:43 PM

mixed feelings on this....

these people are getting paid whether they save people or not.... and they take their equipment out if theres a rescue or not as best I can tell.....

MSUICEMAN

12-19-2005, 03:44 PM

:lol: and btw, that pic of neal is CLASSIC! LOL.

salmonslammer

12-19-2005, 03:46 PM

LOL :D

That's a classic for sure!!!

DangerDan

12-19-2005, 04:10 PM

In MN during blizzards or when blowing snow covers roads stretching for may miles the roads are closed and barracaded. Fines for crossing these barracades are $750.00. In many instances these roads are the only way to get to certain points on the other side of the state, say for instance, home. The state boys and sherrifs dept. don't usually ticket a guy for driving around the barracades unless it's done right in front of them but if you are stranded by getting stuck in the snow, you pay. One could argue that thier tax dollars are paid to cover such assistance but when it comes time for court the outcome is the same. Pay up!! the reasoning is that emergency assistance was called out to help you when you were warned and the costs need to be recovered. In this instance I see the same thing. If you get stuck and need assistance, they are there to serve. accidents happen but more than twice? I'd say thats just foolishness.

If you go out partying on friday night would you expect the sherrif to drive you home from the bar????

RichP

12-19-2005, 04:38 PM

Ah yes, the annual let's fine them thread....

"Boy, those firemen were hurt last year when those guys ignored them and just went back out, and I don't blame them," the sheriff said.

I'm sure it's frustrating, but when you sign up for such a noble job as a fireman or other rescue personnel, you don't get to choose to only rescue considerate people with high IQs.

This isn't much different than when some nimrod falls asleep on his recliner smoking a cigarette and gets trapped in a burning house or because he didn't make it a priority to change the batteries on his smoke detectors every 6 months to a year. Are people fined in those cases?

And, yes, that is a classic photo. :lol:

Edit to add more:

I do need to add to my post however -- if you get stranded on an ice flow 3 or more times in one year as the article alludes to, there needs to be a whole new revision of the word idiot in order to describe you.

WILDCATWICK

12-19-2005, 05:04 PM

Ah yes, the annual let's fine them thread....

I'm sure it's frustrating, but when you sign up for such a noble job as a fireman or other rescue personnel, you don't get to choose to only rescue considerate people with high IQs.

This isn't much different than when some nimrod falls asleep on his recliner smoking a cigarette and gets trapped in a burning house or because he didn't make it a priority to change the batteries on his smoke detectors every 6 months to a year. Are people fined in those cases?

And, yes, that is a classic photo. :lol:

But the point of the article was two fold in my eyes. First they are only going to fine people who repeately do it. That's not the same things as a one time accident. Also taxes increase as the rescues increase. So instead of increasing taxes (no one likes increased taxes do they?) make the repeated offenders pay.

You saw the example the sheriff used right? The guys got rescued from an ice flow then they went right back out! :bash:
Screw fining those idiots, have them freaking commited. It's a few bad apples ruining it for everyone else, but what amazes me more is when people defend idiots! :bash: :dizzy: :rant:

Stop defending the idiots and don't raise the taxes! :help: :help:

RichP

12-19-2005, 05:07 PM

Stop defending the idiots and don't raise the taxes! :help: :help:

I'm not defending idiots, I'm looking for consistency. If you're going to fine, then fine for all repeated rescue efforts of all natures. If legislation specifically mentions ice fishing, then that is ridiculous. If it turns out that the only time this gets enforced is for ice fishermen in these situations, then so be it, but the legislation should be vague.

JJ Mac

12-19-2005, 05:44 PM

Many won't agree with me but I say you play...you pay. You want on the bus, you gotta pay for a ticket, one way or the other. First one in a two year period is a freebee and they take your soc #. After that you pay. How 'bout 50 or a hundred bucks? That's a lot cheaper than a wrecker these days. For other emergencies, a lot of times your insurance pays and you have a copay or deductible. I tell you what, if I'm way out and the ice is breaking up, I'll gladly pay the fine for my life. If you don't have the money...you can come in Saturday and wash fire trucks all day. The reason these idiots go right back out there to fish or retrieve their gear is because of 1 of two reasons:

1. They know someone will come get them, and there is no charge.

2. They are just that stupid and ignorant, and a charge will make them learn.

I agree with RichP, in that as a matter of consistency, this shouldn't be limited to just ice fishing. This should include things such as offroading, Mt. Climbing, hang gliding, extreme skiing, underwater basket weaving, etc.

One incident could be an accident. Multiple incidents by the same person doing the same thing are not "accidents" my friends. Take care and be safe out there.

lmoore

12-19-2005, 07:56 PM

I say fine fisherman then fine everyone for rescues. The difference of ice fishing is there is no help for warnings from the coast guard like boating. They don't want you on the ice if it is 3', so said the guy on CH 2 a year ago his quotes "there is no safe ice". Whats that? Also they fly over the lake 2-3 times a day and they know what the ice is doing and what it looks like but can we get that information? NO Just stay off the ice says the coast guard. I'm not wanting any type of regulation but some info on their web sight on ice conditions would be helpful. And the more you fish the more of a chance of floating off. All of the Coast Guard took the job knowing the danger and they get paid for it. Rant over

WILDCATWICK

12-20-2005, 10:59 AM

I'm not defending idiots, I'm looking for consistency. If you're going to fine, then fine for all repeated rescue efforts of all natures. If legislation specifically mentions ice fishing, then that is ridiculous. If it turns out that the only time this gets enforced is for ice fishermen in these situations, then so be it, but the legislation should be vague.

Yep consistancy would be good. But many of the "soft water" rescues have nothing to do with the conditions but more to do with the equipment. If some idiot goes out when their is a small craft warning then I say fine their buts if they need assistance. Soft water does have a warning system in place. I see no reason that the same couldn't be done for hardwater. It's still up to the individual if they want to go out or not but there would be reports on NOAA for any area that is under a warning. I see nothing wrong with that.

MUSHY1

12-20-2005, 11:15 AM

WILDCATWICK

12-20-2005, 11:44 AM

We already pay for there services through our taxes, Lets see, pay as they sit in a Donut shop or pay them to do there job????? As for the risk, if you ask them( a Cop or Firefighter) in which i have freinds that are, They Get Off on that stuff. They took the job, not me!!!! And God bless them that they did!!

Mushy

Do you want your taxes to increase or not? If not then some individuals will need to start to be charged. If you want your taxes to increase because expenses for rescues are going up then don't charge any individuals and defend the idiots.

Neal

12-20-2005, 11:52 AM

Hey!!! How did I get dragged into this thread!!!

I didn't know Neal has a yacht!

And you sir, will not be going for a ride

No ride for you!!!! ;)

MUSHY1

12-20-2005, 11:59 AM

Do you really think that a guy goes out icefishing with the intention of going through the ice??? Just take off the cost of doing an excercise or practice, to doing an actual rescue. Sh!% happens, and when it does, i hope some one is there to react on it. The media blows this thing out of proportion, Because they still think fish come from the supermarket. I love icefishing, and yes it could be a dangerous sport, and yes there are alot of idiots out there...But all in all, there are more safe and courtious guys then IDIOTS.

Mushy

RichP

12-20-2005, 11:59 AM

Do you want your taxes to increase or not? If not then some individuals will need to start to be charged. If you want your taxes to increase because expenses for rescues are going up then don't charge any individuals and defend the idiots.

What would taxes go up, a dollar per person? Why hasn't it happened already, ice rescue is nothing new is it, so isn't cost already factored in? How have they been paying for it?

Defending the idiots is a catchy slogan and you can repeat it all you want, but that's not what's going on.

I don't care if you fine them. I just think it's silly to target a group. I'd like to think I have a bit of common sense and it would never happen to me, but if I ever find myself on an ice flow, just tell me what you accept -- visa, mastercard, or American Express. I'll slide the card across the ice, just load me in the hovercraft.

WILDCATWICK

12-20-2005, 12:24 PM

What would taxes go up, a dollar per person? Why hasn't it happened already, ice rescue is nothing new is it, so isn't cost already factored in? How have they been paying for it?

Defending the idiots is a catchy slogan and you can repeat it all you want, but that's not what's going on.

I don't care if you fine them. I just think it's silly to target a group. I'd like to think I have a bit of common sense and it would never happen to me, but if I ever find myself on an ice flow, just tell me what you accept -- visa, mastercard, or American Express. I'll slide the card across the ice, just load me in the hovercraft.

The taxes have gone up and will continue to go up every year if there aren't changes made. That's the bottom line.

They are only targeting repeat offenders. Not someone ice fishing who had an accident. That would be insane.

Maybe some of you didn't understand that this is only repeat offenders. It shows a pattern. A pattern of going out in unsafe conditions. Just like the example the people were ssaved and then went right back out there. I can't beleive anyone would say yea raise my taxes next year to save that idiot who went right back out after getting saved :bash:

Ed Michrina

12-20-2005, 12:32 PM

On the news they were boasting about how low the snowmobile accidents causing death was. I think it was only 80 persons DOA last year. I wonder how many ice fisherman died. I doubt it went over 10. Lets see what sport is more dangerous? Should they charge to recoup taxes. I don't think so. Manistee has a lot of trails and its fair share of accidents & rescue incidents. Sure tax money is used up but The sledders dump a ton of money into the economy there. Just like the lake. the business are doing well when 1000 guys show to play in that area. Along with all the boaters. If the taxes are to high "move" What do you think keeps your wonderful city's going "commercial"? you don't' have any it's Money form the lake. I guess you have to take the good with the bad.

RichP

12-20-2005, 12:44 PM

The taxes have gone up and will continue to go up every year if there aren't changes made. That's the bottom line.

I guess I missed that part of the article. :rolleyes:

WILDCATWICK

12-20-2005, 03:08 PM

I guess I missed that part of the article. :rolleyes:

It's not in the article. Where do you think the money that the government runs on comes from? You and I. There are several options and I even missed one but my memory was jarred when I read Ed's post. You can raise taxes to pay for the cost increase, you can charge repeated offenders who were out in dangerous conditions (unlike Ed's snowmobile example) to cover the additional costs, or you can really get nuts and privatize rescue operations and each person can get charged and who knows what type of training, commitment, and service the privatized rescuers will provide.

Accidents will happen. But when it happens to the same person more than twice It's probably not an accident and I don't see why they shouldn't be held accountable. If anyone goes out in dangerous conditions and needs to be rescued once so be it. Tax dollars pays for that. Accidents will happen. But I can't support idiots that do it over and over.

rizutto61

12-20-2005, 03:21 PM

RichP

12-20-2005, 03:35 PM

Where do you think the money that the government runs on comes from? You and I.

Thank you, I did not realize that. :dizzy:

If I'm paying for people to be rescued in Port Clinton, Ohio then I would assume you're referring to what I'm kicking in for the Coast Guard fees, and not the sherriff's department of Ottawa County. Let's be conserative and say the coast guard is blowing $100,000 annually relating to these idiots. I don't know how many out of the 300 million people in this country are taxpayers, but assuming it's at least half, that averages out to 0.0666667 cents per person.

Since you seem to have such little respect for these repeat offenders, wouldn't it be worth one penny of your money to see the news footage of them floating away? :evilsmile You can even get reimbursed from the take a penny tray next time you fill up your gas tank.

WILDCATWICK

12-20-2005, 03:47 PM

Since you seem to have such little respect for these repeat offenders,

And you have respect for these people? And yes the twp.s and counties also pay monnies for rescues not just national funds for the Coast Guard.

RichP

12-20-2005, 04:20 PM

And you have respect for these people? And yes the twp.s and counties also pay monnies for rescues not just national funds for the Coast Guard.

No Wildcat, I don't have respect for them. I just don't get that worked up over how the government spends a fraction of one penny of my money. I know not everything is so glaringly symbolic for wasted money as the imagery of a bunch of idiots repeatedly stranded on an iceflow, but if I spent much of my free time trying to figure out the ways government is misspending my money I'd never get any sleep.

William H Bonney

12-20-2005, 06:15 PM

rizutto61

12-20-2005, 06:47 PM

I'd like to know who started this tax "myth". Can someone show me something in print or a quote from a county or city official that says "our" taxes will go up if the rescues are for repeat offenders? I'd like everyone to pull out your winter tax bill and take a good look at it, then make your post. :rolleyes:

Don't see the ice rescue tax on there. This whole thing is ridiculous someone made a point and won't give up. There are many a good points here but c'mon our taxes raise 50 fold for alot more idiots mistakes than ice rescues. Noone gonna pull out any kind of rescue numbers or tax numbers they just aren't gonna back them up! :tdo12:

William H Bonney

12-20-2005, 07:09 PM

I'm pretty sure the police/fire is on the summer bill. My point is this,,, hypotheticly, if there ever was a tax,, wouldn't it be a "county or city" tax increase? How well would that go over in Macomb Co. ?

Chuck1

12-20-2005, 08:56 PM

Did the Coast Guard ever actually ask for the assistance of local fire departments when it comes to on the ice rescues on great lake waters? From what I understand they would much rather handle it themselves. Now that we have soved all of the other problems we have in this country we must make it our duty to fine ,or tax icefisherman, because they partake in a VERY "potentially dangerous" activety. First we will just fine repeat offenders, and we will never try tochange the law down the road to fine them all. Lets keep it real, shall we? The only reason any of these "local" fire departments,and sheriffs bring this up every year is the want to generate additional revenue however they can,as it stands they cannot bill for ice rescues,and they don't like it. It never ceases to amaze me that a fellow fisherman would so quickly turn on the rest of us over something that very rarely even happens. At least we know who we cannot count on. Fish on, safely.

lmoore

12-21-2005, 05:55 AM

I agree Chuck1 if they want to reduce cost give up a few rides over the lake or maybe just give up 1 flight over the lake a day and that will save a lot of money. I don't see a rescue costing alot of money. We are paying for their wages if they rescue someone or not and cut back one flight and there is the gas. So were is the huge cost that is going to raise my taxes? (unless they sink a hoover craft every rescue) And who is to say it is dangerous or not to go out. Just because one person feels they should not go out does not mean that I should not. I can't believe how some people think especially some one that ice fishes. Someone should be complaining about all the drunks on the road not people on the ice. Have A Greta Day

salmonslammer

12-21-2005, 06:18 AM

I don't see a rescue costing alot of money.

Depends on the rescue op I guess....If you have the helo and the hovercraft and 50 guys milling around on shore for 2 or 3 hours....Yeah, it's going to rack up some coin.

When we got pulled off last year @ the end of march, the whole shebang cost about 5 bucks in gas.....They sent 2 guys in a rigid hull inflateable from MCSD...They ran from Huron Pt to the crocker launch to get us......took about 20 min from the time I made the call till they got there. The deputys were actully having fun since they got to play with thier toys!!

I do agree that if they are pulling the same people off the ice 3 or 4 times a year, then they should be charged some $$$, either that or given a brain transplant!!!

I'm outta here...got some :fish: to catch!!!! :grouphug:

WILDCATWICK

12-21-2005, 10:39 AM

I'd like to know who started this tax "myth". Can someone show me something in print or a quote from a county or city official that says "our" taxes will go up if the rescues are for repeat offenders? I'd like everyone to pull out your winter tax bill and take a good look at it, then make your post. :rolleyes:

William, where does the money come from for county operations and coast guard operations? Taxes! :yikes:

The more they are utilized, which is what has been happening the more cost involved. Who is going to pay for that? Us.

William H Bonney

12-21-2005, 11:11 AM

William, where does the money come from for county operations and coast guard operations? Taxes! :yikes:

The more they are utilized, which is what has been happening the more cost involved. Who is going to pay for that? Us.
No offense here,, but this whole deal sounds more like a Macomb Co. or Chesterfield Twp. problem to me. And listen guys, flame away if you want, but I really don't wanna hear about paying for $h!t you shouldn't have to. I live in Wayne Co.,,, anyone know what the biggest city in Wayne Co. is? :rolleyes:

WILDCATWICK

12-21-2005, 11:24 AM

Chuck1, who is turning on you? I have no problem with free rescues, even though they are not really free. I'm a sportman who hunts for deer, grouse, rabbits, pheastants, woodcock, fly-fishes, baitcast, and icefishes. But when some idiot has to get rescued on a continual basis that's where there should be a line drawn. Supporting thus people who make bad judgments continually and give us all a black eye should have to ante up. I think your mistaking what I'm saying. If you need rescue services a couple of times in your life, those incidents sound like accidents and your taxes already pay those and I see no problems. But when you need to get rescued everyother year that sounds like a problem.

Yes usually the sheriff departments & EMS are contacted when there are soft water and hard water rescues.

It just seems to me, that many of sportsman are protecting the idiots. What ever happend to the saying "once, shame on you...twice shame on me?"