Its not all about trophies

[Grouse Hunter]

We have some property in NE mich. that has been in our family for generations. This will be our 5th season of restricting buck harvests, taking does when necessary and manipulating habitat conditions. This management decision also happened to correspond to a substantial increase in antlerless permits for this area. Which of course lends itself to more forage per animal and better habitat conditions. We have not taken a buck off this land in 4 consecutive seasons and that has been ok with us. The picture shows the last buck that was taken off this property almost 5 years ago and one that was taken this year. Both bucks were aged at 2.5 years old. The larger buck is the one taken this year. The buck was substantially heavier and you can see that he has more antler growth as well. While he is clearly not even close to P&Y or CBM, he is a solid 2.5 year old buck and the direct result of implementing management philosphies consistent with QDM. This year we actually observed bucks chasing, something we have not seen in 4-5 seasons, we no longer have the browse lines, and our cedars are beginning to regenerate. While the population in the area is much lower than CC and the hunting is challenging at best, we are confident that it will only get better.


http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/500/medium/DSCF0198.JPG

[Salami]

Did you go 4-5 yrs without venison to shoot that buck?

[Grouse Hunter]

Unfortunately there were 2 of the 5 that we did not take an animal on that property.

[Salami]

I'm for numbers control not size, with that said i do enjoy a nice rack. michigan is never going to be a state with a good size ratio. not enough quality food,to many hunters.Lets keep the numbers in check and enjoy venison.

[Grouse Hunter]

I'm for numbers control not size, with that said i do enjoy a nice rack. michigan is never going to be a state with a good size ratio. not enough quality food,to many hunters.Lets keep the numbers in check and enjoy venison.


YOu are absolutely right! We will never be Illinois, Wisconsin or Iowa? But I think we have the potential for some excellent bucks in this state.

Here is a pic taken this year in the UP. I will not disclose the location but I would say that this is some pretty strong evidence of a "good size ratio" as you say.

http://www.archerytalk.com/pictures/file/8050/1566.JPG

[QDMAMAN]

michigan is never going to be a state with a good size ratio. .

Salami,
Wether you think it will or you think it won't your right. The picture from the UP is worth a thousand words. Perhaps a return to the glory years?

Big T

[MuskyDan]

Michigan could easily be a size deal. This has got to be a long debate but if Michigan would just take some pointers from surrounding states there would be no question that MI could be one of the best.

[WILDCATWICK]

We have some property in NE mich. that has been in our family for generations. This will be our 5th season of restricting buck harvests, taking does when necessary and manipulating habitat conditions. This management decision also happened to correspond to a substantial increase in antlerless permits for this area. Which of course lends itself to more forage per animal and better habitat conditions. We have not taken a buck off this land in 4 consecutive seasons and that has been ok with us. The picture shows the last buck that was taken off this property almost 5 years ago and one that was taken this year. Both bucks were aged at 2.5 years old. The larger buck is the one taken this year. The buck was substantially heavier and you can see that he has more antler growth as well. While he is clearly not even close to P&Y or CBM, he is a solid 2.5 year old buck and the direct result of implementing management philosphies consistent with QDM. This year we actually observed bucks chasing, something we have not seen in 4-5 seasons, we no longer have the browse lines, and our cedars are beginning to regenerate. While the population in the area is much lower than CC and the hunting is challenging at best, we are confident that it will only get better.


http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/500/medium/DSCF0198.JPG

I don't know alot of the in's and out's of QDM but could you please help me understand how two deer that are the same age can be so different in mass after not shooting for 4 seasons? Also how/why did the browse line come back? That's heart of winter browse. Are you planting a plot that feeds them this time of year?

[Sib]

We've been passing on the 1.5 yr old for quite a while now and it's nice to see more than a single decent buck around since we've started passing on smaller bucks.

But I feel the photo is somewhat misleading and exaggerates the difference between the two deer. The smaller antlered skull plate is significantly further back than the front antlers and the plates themselves appear considerably different in size because of the exaggerated perspective. A more accurate comparison would be putting the antlers side by side and would take away the beneficial perspective that distorts the difference between the two racks.

Our camps has no regret for passing on smaller bucks, we've seen the benefit with a healthier 2.5 yr old population and the occasional 3.5 yr old.

[Zilla]

Though I am a firm believer in management, this picture make me wonder where these bucks were taken.(Fenced or a LARGE peice of privately owned property) For 7(?) mature animals of this porportion to be taken in a single peice of property makes me think of a fence. Especially with the weather we had in the U.P. and the lack of deer movement for the first 5 days of the season. If I am wrong, no hard feeling intended, and hats off to whomever is doing the managing.
Zilla


YOu are absolutely right! We will never be Illinois, Wisconsin or Iowa? But I think we have the potential for some excellent bucks in this state.

Here is a pic taken this year in the UP. I will not disclose the location but I would say that this is some pretty strong evidence of a "good size ratio" as you say.

http://www.archerytalk.com/pictures/file/8050/1566.JPG

[QDMAMAN]

Though I am a firm believer in management, this picture make me wonder where these bucks were taken.(Fenced or a LARGE peice of privately owned property) For 7(?) mature animals of this porportion to be taken in a single peice of property makes me think of a fence. Especially with the weather we had in the U.P. and the lack of deer movement for the first 5 days of the season. If I am wrong, no hard feeling intended, and hats off to whomever is doing the managing.
Zilla

Zilla,
Your response to this picture is sadly the response of the vast majority of Michigan hunters. Michigan hunters just have a hard time believing that a buck, much less several bucks, could ever grow to the caliber of the bucks in this photo. Conversely there isn't a single hunter in Michigan that would even question this photo if they were all spikes and forks. This kind of bonanza of bucks was very common place in the UP in the early 1900's so what's changed?

The fact of the matter is that if a buck isn't killed before his second birthday there is a very good probability that he will be around to see his second, third, or more.

I trust that you are impressed by the photo and would love to be one of those hunters...the good news is that you, Zilla, can be but it will start with you and the 1/2" your finger travels every time you pull the trigger.

Masses of hunters in Michigan are fed up with the status quo and are turning to the practice of QDM. Amazingly there hunting has only gotten better and will continue to improve.

I look forward to the day when photos like that are common place and not the exception that causes one to immediately think high fence or rich private land owner.

Big T

[Grouse Hunter]

But I feel the photo is somewhat misleading and exaggerates the difference between the two deer. The smaller antlered skull plate is significantly further back than the front antlers and the plates themselves appear considerably different in size because of the exaggerated perspective. A more accurate comparison would be putting the antlers side by side and would take away the beneficial perspective that distorts the difference between the two racks.

.

Yeah you are right, I didn't have enough room to get them side by side. I will take another outside when I get home and include some measurements.

Wildcat,

With the population below carrying capacity the animals have more food available to them and less competition for resources. More food means better nutrition and better growth.

The herd is very low in our area and there were 2 small food plots that were put in, but that were barely touched by the deer. Last year they were hammered by November. DNR etimates pop. to be around 20/sq. mile. Based on myobservations I would put it at 15 or less in our area.

[Joe Archer]

YOu are absolutely right! We will never be Illinois, Wisconsin or Iowa? But I think we have the potential for some excellent bucks in this state.

Here is a pic taken this year in the UP. I will not disclose the location but I would say that this is some pretty strong evidence of a "good size ratio" as you say.

http://www.archerytalk.com/pictures/file/8050/1566.JPG

Does this look like a Canadian license plate to anyone else?
<----<<<

[Grouse Hunter]

Does this look like a Canadian license plate to anyone else?
<----<<<


I assure you its Michigan.

[Zilla]

I am one of the hunters that have decided (years ago) to allow bucks to reach maturity(I have even killed a few and have not killed a year and half old buck since I was a teenager). I do manage and posses 600 acres in the U.P. and we have not killed a year and a half old deer in 5 years. However, to say that age is the sole reason for bucks like the ones pictured in the truck is nonsense. I am not trying to stir anything up and i do belive in QDM but honestly can you say these bucks were killed on state land? or even a peice of property that is not larger than 800 acres?
Zilla






Zilla,
Your response to this picture is sadly the response of the vast majority of Michigan hunters. Michigan hunters just have a hard time believing that a buck, much less several bucks, could ever grow to the caliber of the bucks in this photo. Conversely there isn't a single hunter in Michigan that would even question this photo if they were all spikes and forks. This kind of bonanza of bucks was very common place in the UP in the early 1900's so what's changed?

The fact of the matter is that if a buck isn't killed before his second birthday there is a very good probability that he will be around to see his second, third, or more.

I trust that you are impressed by the photo and would love to be one of those hunters...the good news is that you, Zilla, can be but it will start with you and the 1/2" your finger travels every time you pull the trigger.

Masses of hunters in Michigan are fed up with the status quo and are turning to the practice of QDM. Amazingly there hunting has only gotten better and will continue to improve.

I look forward to the day when photos like that are common place and not the exception that causes one to immediately think high fence or rich private land owner.

Big T

[chuckinduck]

I agree with Zilla, I question the validity of that pic with all the large bucks. Heres why....I am fortunate to hunt 2200 acres (almost 4 square miles) of private land in the upper peninsula, we've done selective timber harvests, food plots and antler restrictions for 12 years. No buck smaller then a 6pt may be harvested, and rarely is a 6 pt shot at that. There is minimal hunting pressure on the surrounding property to boot. In the ten years I've been legally able to hunt, we've never, ever came close to matching those sizes in our buck herd, we've had years where we've killed 5-6 8pts, with the occassional 120-130 class, but it certainly isn't the norm, and certainly not the size of those bucks in those pics, and we've also had years where we've killed nothing. So call me a disbeliever if you like, but I doubt those bucks were killed anywhere in the u.p on anything but a high fence, but thats just my opinion

[Ferg]

we are NOT going to start calling members liers just because we 'can't believe' or 'don't believe' - or for whatever reason -

The man said that picture was taken in the UP - I have no reason to doubt it, or his word.

Back to the subject at hand, not the validity of that pictures location.

Thanks

ferg....

[OSXer]

Zilla,
Your response to this picture is sadly the response of the vast majority of Michigan hunters. Michigan hunters just have a hard time believing that a buck, much less several bucks, could ever grow to the caliber of the bucks in this photo. Conversely there isn't a single hunter in Michigan that would even question this photo if they were all spikes and forks.

Well, it's a known fact that there are more smaller/younger deer than larger ones, so odds would make it much more probable a situation if those were spikes/4s. :rolleyes:
This kind of bonanza of bucks was very common place in the UP in the early 1900's so what's changed?

The number of people that hunt, the amount of wilderness compared to developements, the weaponry, the types of deer people are looking to tag, ect.
Masses of hunters in Michigan are fed up with the status quo and are turning to the practice of QDM. Amazingly there hunting has only gotten better and will continue to improve.

"Masses" ... right....

I think that there is just a heck of a lot of division among who wants what to occur. Personally, I'd rather see more people passing on smaller bucks myself, but I would rather not have the widespread discussion of how so many people need to by cutting the deer numbers in their areas. I would be more for inproving habitat and increasing carrying capacity instead of cutting numbers, as so many, QDMers included, believe is necessary.

[chuckinduck]

I believe that picture was directly related to subject at hand, thus, its valid to comment on. For the record, nobody called anybody liars

[Grouse Hunter]

Personally, I'd rather see more people passing on smaller bucks myself, but I would rather not have the widespread discussion of how so many people need to by cutting the deer numbers in their areas. I would be more for inproving habitat and increasing carrying capacity instead of cutting numbers, as so many, QDMers included, believe is necessary.


I agree!!! I would love to see more deer, unfortunately I dont see that happening anytime soon. There is an increasingly greater amount of pressure placed on the DNR to keep the herd numbers lower. These things, range from , TB/disease, car/deer accidents, environmental organizations etc etc. In our case we have had to try to enjoy what we have and make the most of it.

[Joe Archer]

Ok then! That picture was taken in the UP. Wouldn't that suggest that we do indeed have some very quality bucks in this fine state for those (as in the picture) have the knowlege and experience to go after the likes. On the other hand, we also have more opportunity than neighboring states to put venison in the freezer. In short (as the picture proves without a doubt), we have a fine mixture of trophy deer AND freezer deer in this great state!
What is everyone complaining about? Pay attention the the herd you are hunting and harvest accordingly. Spare doe if numbers are down. Harvest doe if numbers are high. Worry about the bucks when you have the improved the habitat, and have doe numbers in line with their environment. It really is a simple plan. MARS is not the place to begin.
<----<<<

[beer and nuts]

Oh this stuff is funny sometimes. Here is a potential picture of 7 huge MI mature deer and guys actually defending the pic... but how can that be???

Michigan is a state of junk herds and all 1.5 year olds....what a pic of big deer?

If I had to guess these deer came from Menominee Co. I have seen farms like this that have private deer poles every opening year with deer comparable to the pic. Corn, swamp and soil. My guess is Menominee Co.

Of course I have seen pictures and actually seen deer like this in Roscommon too-just one deer not a pickup load!!!

Ya gotta hunt for them not grow'em like a ChiaPet.

[Sib]

Oh this stuff is funny sometimes. Here is a potential picture of 7 huge MI mature deer and guys actually defending the pic... but how can that be???

Michigan is a state of junk herds and all 1.5 year olds....what a pic of big deer?

If I had to guess these deer came from Menominee Co. I have seen farms like this that have private deer poles every opening year with deer comparable to the pic. Corn, swamp and soil. My guess is Menominee Co.

Of course I have seen pictures and actually seen deer like this in Roscommon too-just one deer not a pickup load!!!

Ya gotta hunt for them not grow'em like a ChiaPet.


I look at the plate and I see a Michigan Splendor license plate and I look at the rack and I see orange kill tags...That's enough to convince me it's a Michigan shot. The only funky part of the image is near the guy on the left's head, as it looks like the sign on the wall at the Stephenson DNR post was retouched out. :tdo12: :lol: :lol:

[Zilla]

Just wondering if you could answer my last questions? Congrats to you if they indeed came from one special peice of property.
Zilla



I am one of the hunters that have decided (years ago) to allow bucks to reach maturity(I have even killed a few and have not killed a year and half old buck since I was a teenager). I do manage and posses 600 acres in the U.P. and we have not killed a year and a half old deer in 5 years. However, to say that age is the sole reason for bucks like the ones pictured in the truck is nonsense. I am not trying to stir anything up and i do belive in QDM but honestly can you say these bucks were killed on state land? or even a peice of property that is not larger than 800 acres?
Zilla

[QDMAMAN]

I am one of the hunters that have decided (years ago) to allow bucks to reach maturity(I have even killed a few and have not killed a year and half old buck since I was a teenager). I do manage and posses 600 acres in the U.P. and we have not killed a year and a half old deer in 5 years. However, to say that age is the sole reason for bucks like the ones pictured in the truck is nonsense. I am not trying to stir anything up and i do belive in QDM but honestly can you say these bucks were killed on state land? or even a peice of property that is not larger than 800 acres?
Zilla

Zilla,

If these bucks are indeed from the UP, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, do you think that any of them are 1 1/2 yo bucks? If not then age does make a difference and it's not "nonsense".

I can't say they weren't killed on state land and I don't know who did say that but are you saying it's not possible? If so your proving my point.

Different parts of the UP produce different calibers of bucks. If you look at a map of the P&Y/B&C entries from around the country you will notice that Wisconsin, where it borders Michigan, has recorded several book bucks/county vs. Michigan just across the state line that hasn't recorded hardly any. What's the difference? Regulation, tradition, and hunter attitudes for starters.

Big T

[Grouse Hunter]

I look at the plate and I see a Michigan Splendor license plate and I look at the rack and I see orange kill tags...That's enough to convince me it's a Michigan shot. The only funky part of the image is near the guy on the left's head, as it looks like the sign on the wall at the Stephenson DNR post was retouched out. :tdo12: :lol: :lol:

thier secrets safe with me!

;)

[huntnbrush]

What are 2 guys, well 3 with the photographer doing with 7 bucks? Just kidding not trying to start anything. Congrats on a tremendous season.

[Sib]

thier secrets safe with me!

;)

Don't tell me cuz I know then you'd have to kill me and I still have some hunting to get done before I leave this place. ;)

[holzy]

you're a punk :D :D

I would hunt your land every year big fella!!

I do trust that those bucks could have all come from the U.P., without having the actual story from the hunters, we have no reason to doubt them. The deer could be from multiple camps of some pals all thrown into one vehicle?? Never know.

p.s.
I recall one night when we both thumped some yummy 1.5 olds :) Won't ever happen again but that was one hell-ofa night!

[QDMAMAN]

Well, it's a known fact that there are more smaller/younger deer than larger ones, so odds would make it much more probable a situation if those were spikes/4s. :rolleyes:


Mr. Obvious is that you?


The number of people that hunt, the amount of wilderness compared to developements, the weaponry, the types of deer people are looking to tag, ect.

"the types of deer people are looking to tag"
Thank You for again making my point.


"Masses" ... right....

I think that there is just a heck of a lot of division among who wants what to occur. Personally, I'd rather see more people passing on smaller bucks myself, but I would rather not have the widespread discussion of how so many people need to by cutting the deer numbers in their areas. I would be more for inproving habitat and increasing carrying capacity instead of cutting numbers, as so many, QDMers included, believe is necessary.


The division is between those who are happy with the status quo and those that are fed up with it.
The discussion of cutting deer numbers is topic #1 in the DNR so you need to pay attention to it. This forum and the discussions regarding deer numbers/carrying capacities are exactly what's needed. There is tons of info about habitat improvement to inflate carrying capacities, but those are other threads.
The passing of young bucks and the adequet harvest of does, or the sparing of, are both tenants of QDM.

Big T

[WILDCATWICK]

Yeah you are right, I didn't have enough room to get them side by side. I will take another outside when I get home and include some measurements.

Wildcat,

With the population below carrying capacity the animals have more food available to them and less competition for resources. More food means better nutrition and better growth.

The herd is very low in our area and there were 2 small food plots that were put in, but that were barely touched by the deer. Last year they were hammered by November. DNR etimates pop. to be around 20/sq. mile. Based on myobservations I would put it at 15 or less in our area.


I guesse what I'm still wondering is if you currently had a very low deer herd in your area 15-20 sq mile. Is that about what it was 5 years ago? If so why did you have a browsing problem and why is it solved if the population is relativly the same?

The picture show's antler growth. I'm still wondering why there was such a variance? Especially if the food plots weren't even hit until just this year. Sound's like population is more of an issue that size. Is it possible that the larger 2.5 yr old came from outside the normal heard and was looking for some doe companion outside the normal range?

Before I myself commit fully to QDM on our property and goto all the neighbors to see if they will I want to fully understand.

[BlockBUD]

YES!!! Finally, someone with a view I can relate to.:)
Ok then! That picture was taken in the UP. Wouldn't that suggest that we do indeed have some very quality bucks in this fine state for those (as in the picture) have the knowlege and experience to go after the likes. On the other hand, we also have more opportunity than neighboring states to put venison in the freezer. In short (as the picture proves without a doubt), we have a fine mixture of trophy deer AND freezer deer in this great state!
What is everyone complaining about? Pay attention the the herd you are hunting and harvest accordingly. Spare doe if numbers are down. Harvest doe if numbers are high. Worry about the bucks when you have the improved the habitat, and have doe numbers in line with their environment. It really is a simple plan. MARS is not the place to begin.
<----<<<

[beer and nuts]

yaa the Stephenson Post yup Menominee Co!!! Doesn't surprise me because I have seen buck loads like that up there...not on every farm you pass but some farms whack and stack(cause the farmer wants them too..his living at stake) while others have some tremendous habitat and deer numbers.

No need to spend your money in other states, just shop around for leases in Menominee Co......

[Ferg]

I believe that picture was directly related to subject at hand, thus, its valid to comment on. For the record, nobody called anybody liars

The picture was posted as being taken in the UP - you simply stated that you 'question the validity' of the picture - what part of the picture did you question?

Don't answer that -

The point - we get people that post pictures all the time - and then, because, for whatever reason, people start screaming fake or not michigan blah blah blah - and hijacks the thread - don't want there here.

My point was we are NOT going to have debate about the picture - it's a picture, it was stated that it was taken in the UP and a number of members even recognize the location -

valid picture - no further comment necessary.

so that, as they say, is that -

ferg....

[Whit1]

Guys,
Read the author's (of this post) initial comments. We will not have this thread hijacked any more than it already has over that photo. If you continue along this vein the thread will be closed.

I don't give a rats butt where the photo was taken, by whom, etc. etc. etc. Keep this on topic as initiated by the author.

[Grouse Hunter]

I guesse what I'm still wondering is if you currently had a very low deer herd in your area 15-20 sq mile. Is that about what it was 5 years ago? If so why did you have a browsing problem and why is it solved if the population is relativly the same?

The picture show's antler growth. I'm still wondering why there was such a variance? Especially if the food plots weren't even hit until just this year. Sound's like population is more of an issue that size. Is it possible that the larger 2.5 yr old came from outside the normal heard and was looking for some doe companion outside the normal range?

Before I myself commit fully to QDM on our property and goto all the neighbors to see if they will I want to fully understand.


Wildcat thanks for keeping us on track here. The popution in that area was very high and much above the natural carying capacity in the late 90's. This is where all of the habitat damage occured. The browse line is still recovering in some areas. This particular area is outside 452, but generally falls within the depopulation goals for that area according to the DNR's managment strategy. The population has continued to decline in the area as the DNR has issued unlimited Antlerless permits. However, according to the pop. goals for 2006 they want it to increase a little and then level off. OUR food plots were not touched this year! We feel this is due to the substantially reduced population and abundance of food sources. We feel the habitat can support at least 10 more deer per Sq. mile and the DNR agrees with that. Therefore we are now restricting our doe harvest! This was the only deer we took off the property this year and we intentionally did not take any does and we will likely not harvest any does next year as well.

IMO this buck is the result of 2 things happening.
1. Better habitat conditions, due to lower population and greater forage base

2. Passing on 1.5 year old bucks. We have had multiple opportunites to harvest young bucks over the past five years. Over the past 5 years we had opportunites every year and every year we could have "got our buck" but we chose a different managment philosphy. It has been tough! Especially when you consider that we have a neighbor that is the epitomy of the "its brown its down" attitude that is so pervasive in the minds of hunters today.
There are many hunters that would not even take a second look at this buck, he is not even close to making book. We feel the buck is more than just a buck, it is a symbol of the retstraint, patience, hard work and dedication we have had as we have adopted this new philosphy. This is what I mean when I said "it's not just about trophies"

[Grouse Hunter]

.

But I feel the photo is somewhat misleading and exaggerates the difference between the two deer. The smaller antlered skull plate is significantly further back than the front antlers and the plates themselves appear considerably different in size because of the exaggerated perspective. .


Sib heres the best I could do

http://www.archerytalk.com/pictures/file/8050/1575.JPG

[Sib]

Sib heres the best I could do

http://www.archerytalk.com/pictures/file/8050/1575.JPG
Much better, imo and illustrates the difference between the two. Sure can see the similar genetic make up of the deer.

Also, I can see less competition for available food, via lower deer density, manifesting itself with larger body weights and better antler development. Less social stress, more available food at that crucial 2nd year of life could easily give a 1.5 yr old a better start, than a same aged deer in a near, or over carrying capacity environment. Thanks for the pic. :)

[WILDCATWICK]

Thanks Grousehunter for the info. That cleared it up for me and makes complete sense. Sounds like you have a really good grasp on your hunting area. The numbers per square mile that you are coming up, how are you deriving that? Do you live on that property? Hunting party log book? Cameras?

I have 91 acers in a high density area but we have a ton of agriculture and I'm trying to figure out the best way for me to determine deer #'s. I don't live on the land but I live with in a half hour drive. I've been really confused as to the herd the last few years. Last year there was a ton of does and plenty of bucks. By observation I would say 2 or 3 bucks for every 4 does. This year it was more like 1 doe for every 10 bucks. I'm looking for better ways to figure out how the deer in my area are doing.

Sure can see the similar genetic make up of the deer.

No doubt.

[Grouse Hunter]

Thanks Grousehunter for the info. That cleared it up for me and makes complete sense. Sounds like you have a really good grasp on your hunting area. The numbers per square mile that you are coming up, how are you deriving that? Do you live on that property? Hunting party log book? Cameras?
Last year there was a ton of does and plenty of bucks. By observation I would say 2 or 3 bucks for every 4 does. This year it was more like 1 doe for every 10 bucks. I'm looking for better ways to figure out how the deer in my area are doing.



WHAT!!! 10 bucks for every Doe!!!! Whoa!! is that right or did you mean 10 does for every buck?

We ran 2 cameras on the property at major travel and feeding locations and did a lot of observations while hunting. THen we looked at the habitat conditions on out piece and the rest of the habitat in the sq mile and began to extrapilate our numbers. Its not perfect, but I bet its close!

[WILDCATWICK]

Yep. 10 bucks for every doe. I've never had a seson like this. I have at least one neighbohr that may be practicing some very questionable QDM. I think he just shoots every doe he sees. The managment unit I'm in has some 13,000 private land antlerless permits. They never get all used up so it's basicaly unlimited. It's exciting in some ways. Every time out I'm seeing some bucks. Granted many are scrubs. But there have been some dandy's as well.

Now these numbers are based off of maybe 3-4 times scouting preseason. Then maybe about 15 hunts. It's just insane. I hope that maybe there is a higher doe population and I'm just not seeing it with my own eyes. But usually I see the does before the bucks and usually the bucks turn nocturnal first so I'm just baffled as to what the heck is going on. This is why I would like to try to get a better gripp on the hunting property.

Thanks for all your input.

[Grouse Hunter]

I started this thread in 2005 to provide a slightly different perspective on deer management, specifically our participation in practices that are closely aligned with QDM. Its not all about trophies. This buck is the first buck we have taken from this property since 2005. Again this buck is not a trophy in most books, but it is a 3.5 year old mature deer and a buck we are truly proud of. We feel the buck is more than just a buck, it is a symbol of the retstraint, patience, hard work and dedication we have had as we have adopted this new philosphy.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a214/grouse2005/DSCF0169.jpg

[QDMAMAN]

That is a great buck Grouse Hunter! Any 3.5 o buck that can run the gauntlet in Michigan is a true trophy. Congrats on getting him there!
I was a little confused to read some of the early posts on this thread that I had contributed...thought I was losing my mind as I didn't remember typing those things recently.:lol: It was good to see though that I've been on message for the last 3 years at least.;)

Big T

[qdmaer]

the buck in my pic is 3.5 and scores 129, now we do everything qdma man is trying to tell everyone. bottom line its the truth it works. michigan is not a illinois because we need a one buck tag and let 1.5yr olds walk. thin does out. i'm tired of when i shoot a nice buck and some people will say they'll just shoot the first buck they see because they'll never see something that big, wrong!!!!!!!! raise your standards put work into it and it will happen. some people are so impatient. i waited 3 yrs for this buck cause i knew what i wanted, that means 3 yrs of killing does and not touching any bucks. qdm works!! so those who don't beleive are the people that shoot 1.5yr bucks and are always negative.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/521/gregsbuckoct19bow.jpg

[swoosh]

I love seeing pictures of big old northen MI bucks.

Poster good work!!!

The only comment I would like to make is when folks state "Just work for it" It really cracks me up. As soon as deer numbers come down and those some "hunters" have to "work" to kill a deer, boy do they whine.

"Too many doe permits I am not seeing any deer":sad::lol: I have yet to see a buck in the class I want to shoot;) Let the average MI deer hunter
experience that and they would storm the state capital.

As for growing them, I would head to states like Missouri and Ohio, talk to B & N he likes to hunt those states, and has been succesful at shooting a grown deer in at least one of them I think;)

[Pinefarm]

Wildcat asked...
"I don't know alot of the in's and out's of QDM but could you please help me understand how two deer that are the same age can be so different in mass after not shooting for 4 seasons? Also how/why did the browse line come back?"


I can only add anecdotal evidence of what's happened at our NWLP property. For years, our place was the "traditional" NWLP camp. In the late 1990's we started a major habitat/timber overhaul and in 1999 I was the first to start passing yearling bucks at my camp.

Since the 1990's, (without looking at my log book) we've taken roughly 75-100 does off the property.
We also used to average 8-10 bucks a year, every year, from 1975-2000. Most were spikes.
We now average 2 bucks a year since 2004 and all are 8pt's or above.

Our once old growth pines and barren understory of ferns is now a very thick mix of assorted new growth saplings and grasses. We always had one rye field, starting in the 1970's, but have added 5 more rye fields in the last few years.

We've noticed a similar "enhancement" of rack size per year class. In fact, more so than in the pics in this thread.

Our place was very over-populated with deer from around 1980-2000 and we had many 3" pencil spikes and very few deer over 6pt's.

But now, not only are the 3" pencil spikes gone, spikes in general have mostly vanished.

Several reasons that you'd have spikes in the NWLP can be listed as such...

1. Your herd is overpopulated, creating a situation where many females get bred much later into the Fall/Winter, leading to late dropped button bucks. Consider a late drop button buck like a pre-mature human baby, who may have delayed development.
The RX for this situation is to kill many female deer to lower the antlerless herd.

2. With poor habitat and too many deer, the available food sources are limited. Bucks will dedicate nutrition from snowmelt to July to muscle and bone growth, instead of much of that going to antlers.
The RX here is killing female deer to lower overall numbers and to increase available food sources. post snowmelt.

3. With too many does, bucks during the rut put undue stress upon themselves, deep into December, leading into Winter.

So, stop what causes late dropped fawns (overpopulation), allow more food per deer (improve habitat and lower populations) and create a situation where the rut is shorter and over sooner (less females, more adult bucks) and you're on a good path.


At my place, the difference between yearling bucks 1975-2000 and 2000-2008 has been simply amazing.
The 3" pencil spikes, which once made up probably 50% of our buck population, have vanished. I can't think of the last 3" spike I've seen at my place. In fact, spikes at my place have basically vanished. I saw a total of one spike all year.
Many bucks at my place 1975-2000 were even sub-legal. We always saw bucks we "passed" then, not because we wanted to, but because we didn't think even one spike could hit 3". That type of buck at my place has completely vanished.

The overall rack size and "quality" of basically all yearling and 2.5 year olds has greatly inproved, not that we had many 2.5 year olds from 1975-2000. From 1975-2000, yearling racks where 1-6pts, but almost never uniform or symetrical. Racks were bent up, rounded off, busted up and with very short tines. Our old 6pt's where more like twisted up spikes with a couple 1" knobs on them.

But now, we're seeing almost all yearlings with nice, uniform pronounced forks, 6pt's and even 8pt's, with long pointed main beams and nice long, pointed G2's.

In my opinion, after having practiced both, "traditional" deer management reminds me of Third World nations with strong government controls, political instability and no free markets. What you get is malnutrition, disease and stunted growth. General dysfunction.
Getting the herd population more balanced, improving food sources and passing more yearling bucks is more like a free market democracy. And you don't have to be unbending on yearling bucks. I allow new hunters/kids and 2 neighbors to shoot any buck they see. One neighbor has never killed a buck yet and the other has a very bad back and only hunts Nov. 15.
But even in allowing that, only one has killed a buck in the last 3-4 years.

I can't speak for everyone's experience on doing things like this, but at least in my small immediate area, the results are night and day from pre-2000 to post 2000.

[Kelly Johnson]

Great reading and helluva buck G.
Glad to see it's coming to fruition.

[eboll]

Great job