Hatchery vs Wild Steelhead

[quest32a]

There was a discussion on another board I was reading concerning the catch and release of hatchery fish(clipped) vs the catch and release of wild fish(unclipped) in a stream that has a great deal of natural reproduction ie, the Pere Marquette.

The discussion centered around the fact that keeping the hatchery fish is actually beneficial as it eliminates them from the gene pool and only allows the wild fish to reproduce.

Now my question is, whether or not that is true. I don't want to talk catch and release in general but is it better to keep hatchery trout? or to let them go and pass on their genetics? The reason I ask is because in our state all of the stocked steelhead are first generation plants. Meaning that their parents eggs and sperm were taken from wild fish in the Little Manistee river, hence passing along their DNA to their offspring. I am no geneticist so I do not have the answer but my opinion would have to be that it makes no difference as to whether clipped fish, or wild fish are doing the spawning in our streams....

I was just curious as to what everyone else thinks, and I am not trying to discuss catch and release as a whole( lord knows I have whacked a good number of fish and will continue to) but just on the impact clipped fish have on a river system that completey relies on natural reproduction.

[fishotter]

well i dont think it matters. the steelhead all originaly came from the hatchery anyway.

[riverman]

A couple question's. What strain are the Wisconsin fish that stray to our water? Does the DNR take eggs or fertilize those eggs from a fin clip fish at the wier in the spring? Riverman

[Oldgrandman]

I'll put this information out there to think about.
The way to tell a raised fish from a "wild" fish with 100% certainty is to put the scales under a microscope and look at the rings, so I have been informed by our DNR staff. That could be how they determine a fish they take eggs from is "wild" but I don't know. A fish without a fin clipped does not necessarily mean it is "wild." Currently they are not clipping rainbows released in the Rogue, so some guy in a couple years will catch a steelhead and let it go thinking it is "wild" when it probably isn't. How do you tell a rainbow that made it to the Big Water from a steelhead that made it to the big water with 100% certainty out in the field?
If you look at the information I got back on some fish that had the coded wire tag in them below you'll see that some of these fish were released at 12 mile and summit on the Rogue River. This is above the Rockford dam. So the fish have the ability to get over dams. I never would have thought that happened before I got this info back. On many river systems they do not clip the fish above dams but do the fish they plant below a dam.

My point? How the heck do we really know whats wild or hatchery out there?
Please delete it if it strays too far off the topic.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/533/Fin_clips.jpg

[REG]

Riverman,

Wisconsin stocks Skamania, Ganaraska and Chambers Creek strain steelhead.
As of 2003, they are also stocking Arlee and Kamloops strain domestic rainbows.

Yes, they use the fin clips to identify different strains at the wiers for strain segregation/egg taking purposes.

Now a question, and if you fit this bill, thank you for a reply. For those that often fish rivers, such as the PM, that rely on natural reproduction, over the last 20 years on the PM, have you noticed an increase in fin-clipped fish from other states, which would primarily (but not exclusively) be Wisconsin (fish other than MI clips)?

Regards,

REG

[Dutchman]

If the trout is between say, 15 and 20"s it comes home. I could care less what kind of up bringing it had. :chillin:

[riverman]

Reg, I wouldn't know a Wis clip from a Mi clip. maybe they(Wis fish) are there, maybe they are not. I do know in the last few years the # of clips coming up that river has increased. Maybe the fish just aren't making that hard right in the lower river like they are suposed to, I don't know. This whole discussion will probably boil down to no one really knows what is wild anymore and what is not. I don't keep very many fish out of the PM, those Indiana fish taste better!!!, but the chance of catching a fin clip on that river is pretty high right now. Your comment about not wanting to drag fish around, hence you don't keep them, a fillet knife and a ziploc sack makes getting them out a lot easier!! One more thing, I heard the DNR didn't make their quota on king eggs this year, know anything about that? Riverman

[quest32a]

Does the DNR take eggs or fertilize those eggs from a fin clip fish at the wier in the spring? Riverman
I wondered the same thing, that is kind of why I brought this topic up.

BTW, from what I understad with regards to the kings.... They did not get enough fish at the weir on the lil river, so they took eggs from the Boardman weir as well. I think they filled their quota but I am not sure.

[plugger]

I catch alot of fish with a right pectoral clip which I beleive is a little m clip. Many of the steelhead we catch in the summer both on flies and spinners are cliped.

[REG]

Riverman,

You might have looked at these already, but here are a couple of links on finclips:
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/wate...%20finclips.pdf

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/wate...List%202004.pdf

As MI has the right pec clips, pretty much all the other clips, which includes maxillary clips, adipose, vents, etc. will probably be Wisconsin fish.

Wisconsin's runs have been in a progressive but unrelenting decline for over a decade. Several reasons have been postulated, but WNDR has not really taken any action. As these runs decline, the "pool" of available broodstock shrinks.

One of the postulations is regarding a possible role of exclusive hatchery fish for brood stock over generations as a reason for the decreasing returns. We had suggested to WDNR that if they wanted to test that theory, possibly see if they can get a procurement of Lil Man eggs, then test the performance on returns to the wier using Lil Man fish against the current Chambers/Gannies on a brood stock river for a 3 year period. I don't know if they took that seriously or not.

On top of that, WI has been stocking domestic strain rainbows (Arlees and Kamloops) into the harbors with the intent for building a shore/harbor fishery.
These fish appear to grow quite fast, and may take advantage of the near shore forage base (gobies and such), but I have to tell you, these critters are real mutts on the end of the line. They also run up the rivers, like their steelhead brethren. This year, there seems to have been more of these critters up the WI rivers than true steelhead, which is somewhat alarming. On the left side of the lake, alot of steelheaders are concerned that WDNR is couching these rainboids over steelhead to provide for their fishery, as they recently had to decrease their steelhead stocking numbers due to declining ground water availability for their hatchery.

If there is increased straying of WI to MI waters, that would be interesting to know, and especially for the biologists basin wide, I would think. At the recent basin wide fisheries meetings, with all the emphasis on chinook, any issues regarding steelhead were summarily glossed over.

One thing I did notice when I was up your way a couple of weekends ago was how healthy these two right pec clipped fish looked. Perfect edges on the fins with no bent rays, robust and full looking, until I saw the missing fin.

Thanks for the knife/ziplock idea. I do carry plenty of ziplocks in my vest for potential drippers when the situation allows (not wild steelhead, though). I would have to be careful about that because cleaning fish streamside is not looked upon kindly in alot of areas. I tend to put steelhead in what I consider my "sport>food" category, which includes smallies, and most snot rockets. Walleyes, perch and crappies are more in my "food>sport" and have a greater chance of ending up on my table. Though, I have to say, if I get any of those WI hatchery chickens out of any of your grade A rivers, somebody is gonna eat rainbow.

Lastly, regarding the egg take, I have only heard the same information third hand . Someone like Hamilton's Reef, Spanky, or Whit can probably give us a better accounting on that.

Take care,

REG

[Spanky]

RP's are mich fish, not just manistee fish. The did get enough eggs, just had to use both collection areas. With the upcomming reductions, they don't need as many eggs either.

As far as wild vs. stocked, this subject has come up alot, I hope it stay civil this time! ;) I fish the lower SW rivers only, so we don't have that to worry about down here. It is a put and take fishery, lately I have been Putting more back, or letting other guys on the crew take some home. It will stay like that untill I start seeing the bottom of my freezer! :)

[MPsteelheader]

and...

skamania from indiana has the ventrals clipped too...

[TSS Caddis]

My point? How the heck do we really know whats wild or hatchery out there?
Please delete it if it strays too far off the topic.


Steelhead, obviously RP fish are hatchery and if there is no RP clip then you can easily tell from the dorsal.

As far as trout, they don't clip wild rose fish on the Mo, so you'd have to totally go off the amount of wear on the dorsal.

I'm sure after the holiday weekend Mark will get on and comment more.

[stinger63]

I myself have caught rainbows and steelhead without any type of fin clips on them.They look much different than a planted fish with more color and different spot patterns.Are these fish wild probaly natural produced yes but off spring of fin clipped hatchery fish.I work hard to catch steelhead so no mater I bring them home for table fare.Is it ethical to keep it well probaly not from purist point of veiw.Not to say I dont pratice catch an release because I have on other streams that I fish/ed,but on my home river if its a steelhead and it makes it over the wall and on concrete it would probaly die from stress anyways if it were released.My 02 cents

[Steelhead Addict]

I'm a bit surprised that it hasn't surfaced on this thread yet but I've seen in the past. a debate on if wild steel fight harder than hatchery fish.

I haven't seen that pattern. It just seems different fish have different personalities. Just like people. some are junk yard dogs...others fight like walleye. I have noticed that tongue hooked fish have the tendency to heel pretty good though. Ouch, that must hurt!

-Addict

[fishindude]

i really don't think that there is a difference between hatchery and natural fish. i mean, you can't rely on fin clips becuase there is no way the dnr can clip 300,000 planters, and that is just for one river. a fish is going to spawn wether it was raised in a pen or in a river, that is just their natural instinct. I will say that the natural reproduction is so much higher in the northern rivers than compaired to the Grand or the St. Joe. The PM doesn't have planters so those fish are wild or strays from the LM. If you were only going to keep hatchery raised fish, you might have a problem on this river.

[M. Tonello]

Okay, where do I start? I'll see if I can keep this somewhat coherent since it's late at night and I ate a lot of turkey today. I guess I'll start by saying that all steelhead, even wild steelhead are a "renewable resource". Therefore, in my opinion, some harvest of steelhead, even wild steelhead, is ok. That's why MDNR has a three fish per day limit on adult steelhead. If we didn't think that type of harvest level was sustainable, we would lower the daily limit.

My personal preference is to harvest fin-clipped steelhead when possible. That doesn't mean I don't take an unclipped (and presumably wild) from time to time, but if I can help it, I harvest fin clippers. I release far more steelhead than I keep, but yes I do keep some.

Is it important to remove fin clipped fish from mostly wild steelhead rivers like the PM/Little M/Platte/Bear Creek etc? In my opinion it is not critical. If you don't really want to keep a fish, then by all means release it. A few fin clippers in those predominantly wild rivers aren't going to hurt anything genetically. Conversely, if you are going to put the fish to good use, then of course feel free to harvest it, and as I said earlier it is a decent idea to harvest fin clippers before harvesting wild fish.

As for our egg-take practices at the Little Manistee Weir, no we do not take eggs from fin-clipped fish, as long as we have enough unclipped hens to work with. However, we do pass those fin-clipped fish on upstream. If we were truly that concerned about the gene pool, then we'd have to kill any clipped fish that showed up at the weir. I can tell you that a geneticist would really have to scare me before I'd start doing something like that.

Here's a couple of other things to think about. For the last ten years or so, we have clipped all steelhead stocked into Michigan waters. However, Wisconsin does not. So when you see an unclipped steelhead, it isn't necessarily wild, it could be an unclipped stray from another state. As TSS Caddis alluded to, sometimes you can tell from the fins. Hatchery-raised fish often have crinkled dorsal and pectoral fins, while wild fish will have crisp, straight fin rays. Even that isn't foolproof though, as REG mentioned. Our Michigan hatchery steelhead often have beautiful, straight fins, and you wouldn't be able to tell they were raised in a hatchery without the fin clip.

And by the way, don't underestimate the number of wild steelhead in the southern rivers. All of our major rivers from the Joe north have some level of naturally reproduced steelhead. In the Grand for example, it seems like I catch about half clipped and half unclipped when I fish it. There are a lot of wild fish produced in the system even though the mainstem is too warm. A lot of the tribs are cold, and that's where the wild fish come from.

The last thing I feel obligated to mention is that because of budget cuts, we will no longer be clipping the majority of our steelhead. So it will be a lot harder to tell in the future what is wild and what isn't. As OGM said, we'll still be able to tell wild from hatchery by looking at scales, but quick field analysis will be difficult if not impossible.

Whew, I hope I covered everything. I'll try to monitor this one throughout the weekend to see if there are more questions. This really is a good thread and I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with everyone.

[riverman]

Thanks for the reply. What about those Wis strains? If I understand you right, none of thier fish are clipped? Do you see Wis fish at the wier in the spring? What do you do with them there and do you think we are seeing some cross breeding in our state between the different strains? Riverman

[quest32a]

Thanks a lot Mark and everyone else for the replys.... I think the questions I had in mind were answered very well.

[Steelheadfred]

well i dont think it matters. the steelhead all originaly came from the hatchery anyway.

True but, the naturalized strains have been studied and are river specific.

The Lake Superior water shed is the best example. Brule River in WI is the best example. Little Manistee Hachery Steelhead do very poorly in Lake Superior yet in places wild fish thrive in the big water.

[M. Tonello]

Riverman,
No Wisconsin does clip some of their steelhead, but not all of them. Off the top of my head I don't know the percentage. Yes, we do see them at the weir once in a while. When we do, we simply pass them upstream. We do not use them for the egg take. As far as cross breeding, yes I'm sure it happens to some extent. Short of killing stray fish at the weir, there's not a whole lot we can do about it.

Steelheadfred,
Good point about naturalized strains being river-specific. For example, before we began stocking large numbers of Little Manistee strain fish all up and down the coast in the 1960s, each stream had it's own strain of steelhead which were quite genetically different from the other streams. Now they are much more genetically similar. Basically by stocking Little Manistee fish all over we diluted the gene pool. Is that a bad thing? I don't know. If you're going to dilute with something, I can't think of a better fish to use. Little Manistee strain steelhead are pretty awesome if you ask me.

Man if our geneticist finds me talking about genetics on here, he'll probably kill me. I am no geneticist, that's for sure!

[Spanky]

I may be mistaken but.................If I remember correctly, at an advisory meeting in the summer, while we talked about budget cuts, it was mentioned that"as a favor to mich" we would take care of some chinook problems for Ind, in return, they would clip or steelies this year. Did I dream this? :evil:
Dexter and Kelly both talked about it. I'm not sure if you were there.

Other than that, You are right on!

[M. Tonello]

Spanky,
Yes I was there. What Kelley and Dexter were referring to was our Manistee River Skamania plant. Indiana is going to clip them for us. That'll help at the Little M Weir if some of them show up there (which a few usually do). To my knowledge, the only other Michigan-stocked steelhead that will be clipped will be the Orsini fish that will be stocked into the Betsie.

[Spanky]

Ok, thanks for setting me straight. My short term memory is getting bad!

[TSS Caddis]

The last thing I feel obligated to mention is that because of budget cuts, we will no longer be clipping the majority of our steelhead.

No doubt in the next couple years this will bring up another thread on all the "wild" fish being caught :lol:

[phlyphisher]

No doubt in the next couple years this will bring up another thread on all the "wild" fish being caught

And that will be followed by a thread about cut-bow stocking in the Mo. :lol:

[TSS Caddis]

Shhhhhh....
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/549/medium/3159rainbow2_sm.JPG