Frustrated....

[midwestfisherman]

Well, I need some advise. I have been having some issues with Merlin that I'm not sure what to do with. Up until about 2 weeks ago he's been doing fine with his yard training (i.e. come, sit, stay and we're still working on heel). He has been coming to the whistle fine as well. When we let him out, we go out with him but he has usually not been on a lead. Up until this time he has come in fine once he has done his business.

About 2 weeks ago he ran off and would not come back. I'd get close to him and he'd just take off again. I had to eventually chase him down. I let him know that I was not pleased with his actions. I did not hit him. He also did not have his e-collar on.

After that incident, he was o.k. for a couple of days and then off he goes again. I chased him down and scolded him again. Once again he did not have his e-collar on.

The past couple of days he's run off again, both of the past couple of times he has had his e-collar on but when I give him the tone warning he ignored it and then I gave him a nick. Well, he ignored that as well, so I jumped it up a notch. Still ignored it. It was like he didn't even have the collar on. I eventually got him to react to it on the #6 setting and he eventually came back to my command.

Most of the time now I do take him out on the lead, but the couple of times I haven't he's taken off.

I wanted to post this to get your opinion. Am I handling this situation ok or do I need to go back and work on this another way?

p.s. I should also add that he gets out to run as much as we can get him out, which since the time change equals about 3 times a week as opposed to the 5 to 6 times a week he was getting out before the time change.

[Tecumseh]

rabbits?

[Grouse Hunter]

My buddy used to have dog that would run through every setting of the collar and go hunt on his own. Hilarious to me, not him. Dog was stubborn and hunted for itself.

My suggestion, More yard work and try to avoid situations where the dog realizes that it can get away with not obeying.

[festeraeb]

Only thing I want to add being more of a person that leans toward the positive side of training. I would try praising him when he does finally come to you even if he has ran away. He may be associating comming to you with the scolding. Ig you use the e-collar to stop his running then as soon as he does come to you praise the crap out of him. Again jsut a suggestion because he may not be associating your displeasure with the run away from you game but in the hey I came back and got scolded

[Unregistered4]

It may be a couple things. He's about at that "terrible two's" age, isn't he? Anywhere, from nine months to a year and a half, is when a lot of dogs start to feel "less" of a need for their security blanket(you). Yogi(our gordon) went through that, where he didn't respond to commands as he would before. I went back to doing yard work with him(this is before I had a E-collar), worked on his basic commands, "come", "sit" and "stay"(which has been changed to "whoa"). We worked through it that way. The other thing may be, Merlin's just has a bit to much "hunting drive" for you to handle. Some dogs are just that way, no fault of yours, he may just need a professional trainer to bring him around. To get him back under control. Nothing wrong with seeking a pro's advice or help. One more thing, are you sure you have his E-collar on tight, around his neck, right behind his ears? Something doesn't sound right, if your giving him level six simulation and he's not responding. Most dogs would roll in their tracks, at that level. The reason I say this is, I was not getting consistent simulation from my collar and I found that I was not getting it tight enough. Good-luck. Brian.

[Rooster_Smasher]

Is this while your out in the fields and woods or at home ???

Fall and early winter is a time for females to go into heat. He might have girls on the brain...

Go back to the lead and just reward with praise after he goes potty or whatever. Change up on the training stuff. Do some fun retrieves, hang outside and play with him.

If properly introduced to the ecollar the stimulation should not be turned off until he is complying with the command, ie the command come means come to me, stimulation is applied until he starts in your direction. He then learns how to turn off the stimulation by complying with the command. Of course we all know these need to be instilled without the ecollar before hand. So, take a step back in your training and re-instill the basic commands.


Rooster

[drwink]

I wouldn't worry to much. This could be a good thing, since you want to try field trialing him. I didn't think he had enough run before & this may be what he needs.
Certainly you will need some control but you don't want to over obiedience trian him if you really want a cover dog in my opinion. Maybe Backwoods would have more to add, and you are sending him with Bruce IN March & he will get a handle on him for you. I think he's just getting to that age he may be turning on & you don't want to take any desire out of him so be careful.
I would also say you may not have the e-collar on tight enough. Put it on above his regular collar, close to his head, Where you can barley get 2 fingers under it. It may seem tight but you should get responses on the first few levels.

Wally

[Lucky Dog]

I wouldn't worry to much. This could be a good thing, since you want to try field trialing him. I didn't think he had enough run before & this may be what he needs.
Certainly you will need some control but you don't want to over obiedience trian him if you really want a cover dog in my opinion. Maybe Backwoods would have more to add, and you are sending him with Bruce IN March & he will get a handle on him for you. I think he's just getting to that age he may be turning on & you don't want to take any desire out of him so be careful.
I would also say you may not have the e-collar on tight enough. Put it on above his regular collar, close to his head, Where you can barley get 2 fingers under it. It may seem tight but you should get responses on the first few levels.

Wally

:yeahthat: I agree with Drwink.
Sounds like a dog that I would like to have. Stick with him,but don't get too controling and you will soon have a dog that you will be bragging about on this board.
he will come around

[drwink]

frustration is part of the making of a bird dog ;)

[FieldWalker]

Also, make sure the E-Collar is on tight enough...

[boz03]

Howdy!, our first contact since grouse camp. I would definately use the collar for now, but also give him a treat when he comes in. Eventually you won't need collar. Sounds as though he needs exercise, which may solve the problem.
Anyway good luck.

[midwestfisherman]

Rooster, this is when we're at home. Although I live on a farm with about 90 acres, so I'm surrounded by fields. When we're out running or training he listens just fine. I had him out for a good hour yesterday and he responded to all of my commands just fine. It was more of just letting him get out and run than anything else yesterday. Although he did get a nice solid point on a quail. :) For now when we're at the house I'll continue taking him out on the lead.

Wally, I get what you're saying. While running him lately I noticed he is ranging out much farther than he was. I know what you mean about the frustration part. I just want to be sure I am handling the situation correctly. I also don't want to put too much pressure on him just yet since he just 7 months old at this point. I'm trying to keep a good balance between training and having fun.

I've checked the collar and it's on pretty tight. I'm wondering if the probes are not making contact due to the amount of hair around his neck. The probes on this particular collar are rounded. I'll have to check that a little closer.

Thanks for your suggestions guys.

[WEIM-VIZ]

frustration is part of the making of a bird dog ;)
__________________

:yeahthat:

[Rook"e"]

Check cord and positive reinforcment. Doubt you have a fenced yard but that would help as well. Also, the dog could be sensing the pressue and you might consider backing off. My dog began to show this type of behavior after working with a trainer and we immediately turned to games and fun. No training, no whistle, etc. Reconnected with him and a week or so later everything was fine.

[dogwhistle]

most likely he doesnt come in when you let him out because he doesnt want to get shut in for long periods of time. very natural. also you may be spending way to much time on that yard training business. if that is the dog in the picture, he looks about 6 months or maybe more. he should understand come by now.

i suspect your ecollar is working ok, try it on yourself on that setting if you want to know for sure. you are learning a valuable lesson. you cannont make a dog do anything, not even with an ecollar. if he gets conditioned to that high setting enough he will just run off and soon be out of range of it anyway.

i'll tell you this much, dog training isnt particuarly hard, but if you really dont have the time to devote to it and go about it in a way that makes sense to the dog then it is. you cant be involved in any activity in a serious way; marathon running, tournament golf etc, if you can only devote your spare time. that is the case for many people, it's understandable, work, children, home chores etc, but there still is no free lunch.

[Bing]

Midwestfisherman.

Does your yard training include whoa? if so, where are you at with it?

Is all or most of this yard training still on a checkcord? or, are you at the point where you are allowing or expecting the dog to follow the yard training program without the contol of a checkcord?

How long have you spent on heel on lead and where are you two at with this command?

Without seeing the dog and you together it's a tough call IMO. but.... try this, don't give your dog any commands unless you are in a positon to enforce them.
Basically that means work on the check cord to the come command with heavy praise for compliance even when taking the dog out to "do it's business". Don't give this pup too much temptation and don't expect too much from it at this age. Consistency, repetition and patience, you'll do just fine.
Bing

[Robert W. McCoy Jr]

I tie 50 feet or so of weed wipper cord to a swivel snap.

Let the dog go is he takes off you have 50ft of cord you can step on and stop him.

A couple of times with this and even a hard headed beagle gets the drift.

I use weed wipper cord because it doesn't get tangled up on brush.

A side note about ecollars. I don't mean to ruffle and feathers but batteries die and collars break. They are a great tool but the goal should be to be able to hunt a finished dog with out a collar. I rarely use a collar on a dog over 3 years of age. The only excpetion is when I am out of state or running with strange dogs.

[upnut]

This may or may not be relevant...Is he challenging your authority...i.e. pack mentality-alpha-dog? Our vet suggested this: one person(alpha) only gives pup food, gives pup water, gives pup walks, anything good or enjoyable comes from only one person--you. Eventually pup realizes you're the BOSS, and good things happen when the Boss is around. That approach, plus hours of work on a check-cord worked for us...Scott

[Back woods]

I remember when I was a kid the frog pond down the road called my name everytime I went outside. I would lose track of time and my dad would come down and fetch me out of knee deep muck by the ear to get my butt back home for dinner, This after I heard my mom calling my name at the top of her lungs. Sure I heard her but I acted like I didn't. My dad and I would talk and laugh all the way home. But boy was my mom hot.

Anyway, I never let my young bird dogs out without supervision. Some need a check cord, some just need me to stand on the porch. Merlin will learn what is expected of him. It my take some time and it can be frustrating, but take it easy on him. If he needs the check cord when out, stake one out the back door so you can hook him up to do his deed and you can drink your cup of morning joe.

[upnut]

Was just re-reading Best Way To Train Your Gun-Dog: The Delmar Smith Method, and he would combine the stake-out with the BOSS only bringing food and water. That way pup's fight was with the stake in the ground, not the BOSS. As he learned that fighting the collar/check-cord was a losing battle and that good things came from BOSS, most of the check-cord training went much more smoothly...Scott
btw...That's a great read, not only for training ideas, but helpful hints and entetainment as well....

[WEIM-VIZ]

Just to make you feel better, your not alone here. My pup is dealing with completely different issues, but it is frustrating to say the least. I just 'Had" to have a new bird dog, "It will be great". There are enjoyable moments, but the training is 24hrs, It has been years since I worked with a pup, and I tell you what!:dizzy: I think the training is as good for me as the pup. I am not patient by nature, and never worked with a soft breed like a Vizla. I have had to tune the "Weim Voice" down to a "come on buddy, oh good dog". I guess it is good for both of us.

[jimmyjette14]

when my daughter brought home an older dog that had been on a chain for all its life it would run off. so I would call it 2 times then run the other way and call it again in the lets go have some fun voice. It got it quick. and praise it when it comes the only time I gave it the I'm mad dont do that is if I caught it. doing it. same goes for my 2 year old cheesie and his buddy dog. your dog finialy got out and doest want back in yet. so give him something to do if you can. thats why we got Taz a dog to settle him down . it helps but he is still ready to play long after his dog went to bed. Jim

[midwestfisherman]

Good stuff guys. Thanks again for all of the suggestions.

Bruce, the stake out idea is a good one. I did that with my other dog years ago, don't know why I didn't think of it this time. :dizzy:

Weim-Viz, I hear what you're saying about the 24 hour thing. But, I have to say, even though I'm having this issue, he's a great little dog over all. :)