Cougars in Michigan!!!!!!

[luv 2 bowhunt]

Everyone who doubts the cougar rumors better run out and buy the latest Deer and Deer Hunting Dec. 2005 issue.
On page 87 there is a very informative article on all of the PROOF that there is a definate breeding population of COUGARS in Michigan.

It states that Dr. Patrick Rusz, a Michigan researcher says there are 20 to 30 cougars in the U.P..

[Swamp Monster]

Is this the same Patrick Rusz that is with the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy?

If that is the case, enough said. I've looked at their "proof" before! :lol: :lol:

[swampbuck]

Is this the same Patrick Rusz that is with the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy?

If that is the case, enough said. I've looked at their "proof" before! :lol: :lol:

Do you know Dr. Rusz? have you ever spoken to him on this topic? If you havent maybe you should before you make that kind of judgement.

And in case you are wondering, yes my hunting partner and I have and we have shared evidence with him. He is a very intelligent(PHD) and freindly man. he is also a sportsman. If all the people WHO BASH THEM, would take the time to study the information he has gathered and exactly what motivates him on this topic. then just MAYBE we could have an informed conversation on this topic.

I am not saying who is right or wrong I am saying you should take an open minded look at the information,and not base your opinion on the wrightings of a few jounalist. who may have theyre own agendas.

[Munsterlndr]

Do you know Dr. Rusz? have you ever spoken to him on this topic? If you havent maybe you should before you make that kind of judgement.

And in case you are wondering, yes my hunting partner and I have and we have shared evidence with him. He is a very intelligent(PHD) and freindly man. he is also a sportsman. If all the people WHO BASH THEM, would take the time to study the information he has gathered and exactly what motivates him on this topic. then just MAYBE we could have an informed conversation on this topic.

I am not saying who is right or wrong I am saying you should take an open minded look at the information,and not base your opinion on the wrightings of a few jounalist. who may have theyre own agendas.

My mind was open until I saw the house cat videos that they were insisting were cougars. The wildlife professionals who debunked the video for the Eastern Cougar Network seem pretty credible.

http://www.easterncougarnet.org/michigan8-23-04.htm

[boehr]

:lol: Here we go again. All these arguments are the same, there is nothing new here. :lol: :grouphug:

[bearguy]

Well, I don't know a single houndsman that has ever cut a lion track in Michigan.

[Little Roober]

boehr, you took the words right out of my mouth.:p

[FishMichv2]

the funny thing about all this is how hostile people get when talking about it. i cant say whether i believe it or not but i consider it a possibility. i could sit here and post links that support it all day, and could do the same for the naysayers.

[luv 2 bowhunt]

A question for houndsmen.
Aren't hounds trained to be species specific?
Bear hounds don't go around chasing squirrels, partridge,ducks,possums, raccoons, etc...
The bear hounds chase bear.
Coon hounds chase raccoons.
Does anyone have a cougar hound?

[Linda G.]

Every bear hound I've ever hunted behind or known, (mostly Walkers), would run and attempt to tree anything that moved UNLESS corrected from that species, like deer. So, unless you don't want them to, they'll chase EVERYTHING, but most houndsmen I know, and that's quite a few, only want their dogs to chase bear, coyote, bobcat, cougar, fox, and raccoon.

Most, tho, only pursue coons and fox when training young dogs. When hunting with mature dogs, (depending upon what seasons are open) most only pursue coyote, bear, bobcat, and cougar, and yes, many of the dogs used here in Michigan go west every year specifically to pursue lions, so if they ran across a track here, they'd run it.

Well-trained hounds don't go off willy-nilly...a track is located, it is then determined, by the human hunters, according to how fresh that track is, whether the dogs will be released on it. When the dogs are released on THAT specific track, they stay with it until the animal is bayed or the track is lost somehow, such as often happens when animals swim lakes, etc.

[BVW]

Pat Rusz and the MWC are ding dongs, anyone that puts housecats on thier website and says they are cougers should not be trusted.

[Sam22]

This argument will just not stop! I am going to skip me educated opinion and say I don't care anymore!

[jakeo]

Living only a few miles from the Monroe "sightings"...i would love to find a Cougar Hound ........AND those pics were confirmed as 100% Realistic to be a "Cougar" but.....
Monroe and Toledo news media were NOT allowed to say that!
Untill you actually see one with your own eyes.....i would NOT be a believer.

[Michihunter]

Why is it so hard to believe? I'm pretty sure no ever expected to see a Wolverine. And no ones claimed to see it since. No one thought there'sd be wolves in the Lower, but a traper put that claim to shame. I personally believe it. Especially seeing how the range of the cougar is so large. Have I seen one? No!! But I haven't seen Jesus neither!! ;)

[Swamp Monster]

Living only a few miles from the Monroe "sightings"...i would love to find a Cougar Hound ........AND those pics were confirmed as 100% Realistic to be a "Cougar" but.....
Monroe and Toledo news media were NOT allowed to say that!
.


No, those pictures in Monroe were not confirmed. And I doubt the media was hushed by some gov't conspiracy. Makes for great internet forum talk though! :lol:

I'm not questioning Rusz intelligence, but the MWC and the peple involved with them have done enough damage to their credibility, that I will not take anything they say or print as gospel.

[unclecbass]

Having seen a couger in the wild in another state, I hope we never have them in Michigan. I dont want to be constantly looking over my shoulder when I am out before daylight. I know cougers dont "normally" attack humans, but they do it none the less. There is a reason people dont see them, they are extremely elusive. Not going to be haging out at the local dump like bears. If they exist, they will leave tracks and the DNR will confirm their existence. If not, I think its mere speculation at this point.

[Wizard3686]

i beleave they are in michigan and i have been told by dnr they are here and i have also seen them search for them on our land we have up north i have also seen them and i have seen what they will do to horses and cows and i know ppl are not gonna beleave me but when you have about 30 ppl out side your house for over 2 weeks searching for sumthing that everyone says is not in michigan well you would beleave to and when you see one up on to of a chicken coop just laying there at 3 in the morning you will beleave to also i have talked to alot of ppl that do alot of work way of ways off the beating road who have seen them run out across the road and yes i understand that no one is gonna beleave it untill sum one get pics but one day befor you know it it is gonna be like the wolves which we didnt have that man in the U.P at first now ppl are really pissed off cauze they are killin ppls livestock and stalking humans at time


all i am sayin is yes Michigan has alot of woods that no one every goes in to so you never know what kind of anmial is in there let it be a cougar or maybe an unkown thing it is always possiable


Rob
Michigan North Woods Hunter

[Swamp Monster]

i beleave they are in michigan and i have been told by dnr they are here and i have also seen them search for them on our land we have up north i have also seen them and i have seen what they will do to horses and cows and i know ppl are not gonna beleave me but when you have about 30 ppl out side your house for over 2 weeks searching for sumthing that everyone says is not in michigan well you would beleave to and when you see one up on to of a chicken coop just laying there at 3 in the morning you will beleave to also i have talked to alot of ppl that do alot of work way of ways off the beating road who have seen them run out across the road and yes i understand that no one is gonna beleave it untill sum one get pics but one day befor you know it it is gonna be like the wolves which we didnt have that man in the U.P at first now ppl are really pissed off cauze they are killin ppls livestock and stalking humans at time


all i am sayin is yes Michigan has alot of woods that no one every goes in to so you never know what kind of anmial is in there let it be a cougar or maybe an unkown thing it is always possiable


Rob
Michigan North Woods Hunter

That has to be the longest most painfull sentence I have ever read! :dizzy: :dizzy: I know they have schools in the U.P., I've seen them with my own eyes. One just has to take advantage of them! :lol:

[Adam Waszak]

Those woods are full of backwards walking smelly rotten flesh invisible creatures so watch your *****..

AW

[Dedge]

When yogurt goes bad, how do you know?

Dan

[steelsetter]

Everyone who doubts the cougar rumors better run out and buy the latest Deer and Deer Hunting Dec. 2005 issue.
On page 87 there is a very informative article on all of the PROOF that there is a definate breeding population of COUGARS in Michigan.

It states that Dr. Patrick Rusz, a Michigan researcher says there are 20 to 30 cougars in the U.P..

my pet Bigfoot and Lochness monster saw some being beamed down from the mothership!

[wecker20]

I don't believe in ghosts, I don't believe in aliens, I don't believe cougars have a breeding pop. in Mich........or I should say I don't think....??? Until I witness it or have proof it's just nay say imo.

[Big50blaster]

http://www.mlive.com/news/jacitpat/index.ssf?/base/news-14/1129651550272240.xml&coll=3&thispage=1 (http://www.mlive.com/news/jacitpat/index.ssf?/base/news-14/1129651550272240.xml&coll=3&thispage=1)



250 hunt for cougar answers

Tuesday, October 18, 2005

By Pat Rombyerprombyer@citpat.com -- 768-4924

Some 250 people showed up Monday night looking for answers about a cougar sighted in northwest Jackson County, but a nationally known expert didn't offer the reassurance that some were seeking.

"I'm not here to tell you that the cougar poses no danger," said Patrick Rusz, director of wildlife programs at the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy.

Rusz began his presentation at a public forum at Western's Community Arts Center with a 40-minute slide show depicting the powerful cat in the wild, as well as graphic photographs of injuries suffered by a horse killed on a Parma Township farm.

Rusz, who since 1998 has studied cougars throughout the state, fielded dozens of questions ranging from how to protect children at the bus stop to the best way to shield horses from further attacks.

"You're not the first community to have a cougar," he said. "Up north, they'd laugh at Jackson County. They see them every other week."

From the evidence he has seen, the cougar is an adult male or a large female. In fact, he suspects that there may be two in the area with overlapping territories, but could not confirm if they were transient or here to stay.

No research has been done on cougars by the Department of Natural Resources, he said.

"They won't touch it with a 10-foot pole," Rusz said. "They've dropped the ball. That's why information is so sketchy."

DNR officials are not convinced that there is a self-sustaining cougar population in Michigan but acknowledge the animals sometimes turn up in the state, according to published reports.

Efforts this morning to reach DNR officials were unsuccessful. Ray Rustem, supervisor of National Heritage Programs for the DNR, said recently that officers spent a winter unsuccessfully trying to track a cougar near the Sleeping Bear Sand Dunes, where there had been numerous sightings.

Rep. Rick Baxter, R-Concord, said he's received calls about the cougar and refers them to the DNR.

"They don't see it as a reliable risk," Baxter said after the meeting. "It hasn't come to where the problem needs to be addressed."

Jasmeen Hankerd of Jackson said state officials "ought to take a more active approach. They ought to relocate it."

Her mother, Pat Hankerd, said parents of children who wait for early morning school buses should be especially cautious.

"Cougars hide in shrubs and weeds, they can jump 40 feet," she said.

People spoke freely about killing the cougar if they saw it on their land, even though it's protected by the state's endangered animal act.

"If I'm confronted by it, it will become the Jimmy Hoffa cat," one man in the audience said.

Another said he would handle it by the "Three S's -- Shoot, shovel and shut up."

Chief Jon Sutliff of the Parma Sandstone Police Department said he gets calls daily about the cougar.

"I think people got a lot of answers tonight that they wouldn't have gotten from me," he said after the meeting. "I think it cleared the air."

[Wizard3686]

so sorry i dont use proper grammer............... how is that

[Ferg]

I don't think there is a person in this state that would not agree that there are cougars running around -

People release pets into the wild all the time -

The question IS:

Is there a breading population of cougars in Michigan?

To this, I don't think anyone, let me say that again, anyone, as the answer that they can back up with facts and documentation.

ferg....

[MuskyDan]

Swamp Monster you rock!!!!!!

Ferral house cats have long been targets of hunters and trappers in Michigan. Even with PETA threatening our sport we hunters and trappers do our part to help keep these nuisance critters at bay and off of the natural critters running the fields. I suppose I would like to see a ferral house lion!!! :grouphug:

[Swamp Monster]

http://www.mlive.com/news/jacitpat/index.ssf?/base/news-14/1129651550272240.xml&coll=3&thispage=1 (http://www.mlive.com/news/jacitpat/index.ssf?/base/news-14/1129651550272240.xml&coll=3&thispage=1)



250 hunt for cougar answers

Tuesday, October 18, 2005

By Pat Rombyerprombyer@citpat.com -- 768-4924

Some 250 people showed up Monday night looking for answers about a cougar sighted in northwest Jackson County, but a nationally known expert didn't offer the reassurance that some were seeking.

"I'm not here to tell you that the cougar poses no danger," said Patrick Rusz, director of wildlife programs at the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy.

Rusz began his presentation at a public forum at Western's Community Arts Center with a 40-minute slide show depicting the powerful cat in the wild, as well as graphic photographs of injuries suffered by a horse killed on a Parma Township farm.

Rusz, who since 1998 has studied cougars throughout the state, fielded dozens of questions ranging from how to protect children at the bus stop to the best way to shield horses from further attacks.

"You're not the first community to have a cougar," he said. "Up north, they'd laugh at Jackson County. They see them every other week."

From the evidence he has seen, the cougar is an adult male or a large female. In fact, he suspects that there may be two in the area with overlapping territories, but could not confirm if they were transient or here to stay.

No research has been done on cougars by the Department of Natural Resources, he said.

"They won't touch it with a 10-foot pole," Rusz said. "They've dropped the ball. That's why information is so sketchy."

DNR officials are not convinced that there is a self-sustaining cougar population in Michigan but acknowledge the animals sometimes turn up in the state, according to published reports.

Efforts this morning to reach DNR officials were unsuccessful. Ray Rustem, supervisor of National Heritage Programs for the DNR, said recently that officers spent a winter unsuccessfully trying to track a cougar near the Sleeping Bear Sand Dunes, where there had been numerous sightings.

Rep. Rick Baxter, R-Concord, said he's received calls about the cougar and refers them to the DNR.

"They don't see it as a reliable risk," Baxter said after the meeting. "It hasn't come to where the problem needs to be addressed."

Jasmeen Hankerd of Jackson said state officials "ought to take a more active approach. They ought to relocate it."

Her mother, Pat Hankerd, said parents of children who wait for early morning school buses should be especially cautious.

"Cougars hide in shrubs and weeds, they can jump 40 feet," she said.

People spoke freely about killing the cougar if they saw it on their land, even though it's protected by the state's endangered animal act.

"If I'm confronted by it, it will become the Jimmy Hoffa cat," one man in the audience said.

Another said he would handle it by the "Three S's -- Shoot, shovel and shut up."

Chief Jon Sutliff of the Parma Sandstone Police Department said he gets calls daily about the cougar.

"I think people got a lot of answers tonight that they wouldn't have gotten from me," he said after the meeting. "I think it cleared the air."



Thats right, keep spewing crap from the MWC, that will further your credibility! :rolleyes:
All that propaganda town meeting crap is good for the donation bucket...... :rolleyes:

[Swamp Monster]

so sorry i dont use proper grammer............... how is that


Why don't you tell me? Capital letters used correctly? Punctuation used anywhere?

Obviously this isn't a grammer or a spelling class, and my spelling is nothing to write home about, but come on now! If you want people to read your posts or listen to your point of view, at least write what you want to say with some level of competence.

[Swamp Monster]

Ferg is correct. There is no proof yet, maybe at some point though. I don't doubt the existence of a few Cougars roaming our southern 1/3rd of the state, but a dead horse and some town meetings have yet to offer up any proof concerning a wild population of Cougars.

This gets beat to death for the same reasons over and over again. Somebody reads some article and they take it for gospel, or their sisters neighbors garbage man saw one 3 houses down, has pictures to prove it, yet never delivers. You folks that are so certain we're dealing with wild Cougars would be served best by keeping mum on these issues until you have solid evidence. And trust me, some MWC bioligist that is quick to take witness testimony and heresy as gospel is not credible, nor can it be considered factual!

[Ruff Rider]

I picked up the October issue of Woods-N-Water News, and on pages 120-122 it has an article titled "The Mystery of the Flying Deer", by Patrick Bevier and Lydia Lohrer, which discusses three cases where deer carcasses were discovered high in trees between November of 2004, and April 2005.

Case one occured on November 23, 2004 in Commerce Township, Oakland County. A 140 pound buck, fully intact (which means the antlers were still there, somewhat ruling out a poacher, not to mention it was during season), was found hanging over 10 feet in the air, wedged in a tree. There were claw marks and puncture wounds found on its back, along with missing hair.

Case two occured 2 weeks later and only 5 miles away in White Lake Township. Another deer was wedged in a tree. The police officer that came upon the "partially eviscerated" deer said there were tracks much larger than a dog at the base of the tree, along with some fesces. MDNR claims it was a poached fawn that was thrown in the tree, and the fesces was as canine, probably coyote.

Case three was on April 3, 2005, in Oscoda County. An adult doe was somehow hoisted over 16 feet into a tree and left wedged. Eyewitnesses, including one lifetime deer hunter who helped get the deer down, say that there were several pencil sized punctures in the deers neck, and its endtrails were slashed out and appeared to be partially eaten, which is said to be consistant with a cougars feeding habits. They also said there were a lot of claw marks on the tree. MDNR's response was that there were no wounds or signs a predator was involved and no marks on the tree to support another predator climbed it up there.

Take it as you will, but I have a hard time believing a person is running around throwing deer high into trees for laughs. I don't know that it is necessarily a cougar, but I think something is out there. :hide: :bowdown:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Adam

[MuskyDan]

I have seen people throw blood on another person for wearing and fur coat. I don't think it is far fetched to believe that some cougar enthusiast planted the deer.

[Ruff Rider]

What exactly would you consider a cougar enthusiast? I'm just curious. Because if it is a person, they are one sick individual.

[pacer88220]

That has to be the longest most painfull sentence I have ever read! :dizzy: :dizzy: I know they have schools in the U.P., I've seen them with my own eyes. One just has to take advantage of them! :lol:
I even went to one!

[MuskyDan]

Somebody who wants everyone else to believe there is cougars in Michigan. Someone who would stop at nothing to get their point across. We need a CSI show about it.

[unclecbass]

When did this site turn into a spelling contest? I need to get me some spell checker. Or is it on here and I just cant find it? If not, we need to get it on here. By the way I have two college degrees and I still cant spell properly. They say poor spelling is a sign of genius. Anyhow my point is Cougars in Michigan = sasquatch in Oregon = Nessie in Scotland. At least until I see legit pictures. I have been shown pictures by people who actually told me their neighbors took them, You all recall the trail cam pic with the mountain lion stalking the doe dont you? What would you call that a rural legend?

[boehr]

Take it as you will, but I have a hard time believing a person is running around throwing deer high into trees for laughs. I don't know that it is necessarily a cougar, but I think something is out there. :hide: :bowdown:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Adam...I know for a fact of at least one of those deer (road kill) was put in a tree by people because I know who did it. It was done as a joke which had nothing to do with the subject of cougars.:)

[ytlabs]

Simple method of the whole issue.

S.S.S.
enough said. :yikes: :lol: :lol:

[boehr]

Simple method of the whole issue.

S.S.S.
enough said. :yikes: :lol: :lol:
I get it, Shoot the S#it Session;)

[Foreveryoung001]

Well, I don't know about cougars, but my father-in-law's cousin's nephew's uncle's sister's brother's friend did see a large print, that when you squint your eyes just so, so the Nike logo is blury, and you hold it at just the right angle with the sun coming from over your left shoulder... it can look like two things... either a big foot print, or Abraham Lincoln riding a horse... I'm going for big foot.:rolleyes:



So with that evidence.... why can't there be invisible cougars..... something has got to keep the Michigan big foot population under control.:lol:

[ytlabs]

Yeah Boehr thats it. :lol: :lol:

[bearguy]

A question for houndsmen.
Aren't hounds trained to be species specific?
Bear hounds don't go around chasing squirrels, partridge,ducks,possums, raccoons, etc...
The bear hounds chase bear.
Coon hounds chase raccoons.
Does anyone have a cougar hound?
Any good bear hound can and will run a lion track. So, if you have good hounds they are multi purpose tools.

[bmarken]

:gaga: childish....everyones entitled to their opinion and others should respect that. personal attacks just because you dont agree with someone elses opinion is childish. there could be cougars in michigan or it could all be a bunch of crap. i guess no one will know the truth until they see one with their own eyes.

[Michihunter]

:gaga: childish....everyones entitled to their opinion and others should respect that. personal attacks just because you dont agree with someone elses opinion is childish. there could be cougars in michigan or it could all be a bunch of crap. i guess no one will know the truth until they see one with their own eyes.


I'm not sure that would even convince some!! :rolleyes:

[Big50blaster]

I'm not sure that would even convince some!! :rolleyes:

I thanks that the reason they dont want them here is that if they is found hear then they might be stuck with anudder wolf problem. So they tries ta keep people whos seen one from talkin bout it.

What I is tryin ta say is that they dont want the feds tellin em how ta manage the cougar in MI like they is doin the wolfs.

Caint blame em at all for wantin the feds kept out. MI oughta be able to take care of itself. Me I dont care if they is here or they aint, till one jumps on my back.:lol:

I knows too many old guys thats seen em even way back when theys a kid. Doubt there is many out there but when others try sa hard ta trash people who has seen em ya know there is a agenda behind it.

[Pigpen69]

Why is it so hard to believe? I'm pretty sure no ever expected to see a Wolverine. And no ones claimed to see it since. No one thought there'sd be wolves in the Lower, but a traper put that claim to shame. I personally believe it. Especially seeing how the range of the cougar is so large. Have I seen one? No!! But I haven't seen Jesus neither!! ;)

I agree, I havent seen jesus, but heard alot about him though. I m sure theres a logical explanation for the deer being found up in the trees. They are a special Upper Penninsula breed deer that are closely related to Santas reindeer. ;) ;) They just spun out of control when they were told they couldnt lead the sleigh. :) :) Theres probably not good enough habitat in michigan to support cougars anyways...not enough to eat or enough places to hide. Havent seen one myself, but i think there certainly could be cougars.

[Fabian Suarez]

but then again..i never used to load my 300 winchester mag when i was walking out to my blind but now, that the nasty ole wolf population has increased in the L'Anse area. Its loaded! Did see one very large Bobcat last year that i wouldn't mess with....Cougars...that would be cool.

[mp1482]

i seen a couger in central U.P last huntingseason it ran across us2 rightin front of me and when i was telling people about it a couple peole said they also seen one within a half mile of the same area

[BVW]

Folks,
In 113 years cougars have killed only 13 people in All of North America, Wolf attacks are even less than that if any at all. So relax people, you have a better chance of dying from a Bee or a mosquito, and i think your 300 may be a little more gun than you will need , also you have a better chance of shooting yourself or someone else with your loaded gun and a nervous finger:help:
Can you guys that see cougars in the UP explain how this fact is possible::
Federal and State biologists surveyed 8,298 miles of roads and trails during their annual wolf population survey. 2,005 man-hours were expended. The survey encompassed all UP counties. A minimum of 360 wolves were counted. No cougar tracks were found, and none have been found in any of the previous surveys conducted since 1996.
Just wondering why Cougar prints were not found? once again don't worry about being eaten by a Cougar.
Here is a little info about the MWC and Cougar evidence Please read if your interest: http://www.easterncougarnet.org/woodsnwater1-04.doc
Also Read this:
http://www.easterncougarnet.org/ecn_review_of_kalkaska_county.htm

[Foreveryoung001]

Just wondering why Cougar prints were not found?


Because they are magic cougars with ferry friends. A little sparkle dust... then second star on the right, and straight on 'till morning.:lol: Their feet never touch the ground.

[bmarken]

Because they are magic cougars with ferry friends. A little sparkle dust... then second star on the right, and straight on 'till morning.:lol: Their feet never touch the ground.

i dont know what i believe but you are a funny guy:lol:

[Linda G.]

Do I believe that some people might "create" the evidence of cougars?

Yes.

Do I believe that someone might actually import and release a cougar just to keep these stories going?

Yes.

Do I think that, in some areas of the western UP, it's possible there might be some WILD cougars?

Yes.

But we have no proof. Only stories that make for interesting discussions and debate that sell magazines.

Does anyone know if the MWC is still charging $50-$75 per person to attend one of their seminars?? So that "town meeting" that lured 250 people was pretty profitable for the MWC...

Hmmm....

[FREEPOP]

It's a conspiracy.

People are importing these animals and setting them loose.

Maybe the MWC is involved too.

Sorry for my skepticism, I hope people have better things to do with thier time. It will be interesting what comes out of this wash if/when it ever does. Then one side can proclaim they were correct and the other can eat the crow.

Till then, in the immediate future, I'm trying to arrange a second date with a certain buck from last year and hope for a different outcome. ;)

[mich buckmaster]

Do you know Dr. Rusz? have you ever spoken to him on this topic? If you havent maybe you should before you make that kind of judgement.

And in case you are wondering, yes my hunting partner and I have and we have shared evidence with him. He is a very intelligent(PHD) and freindly man. he is also a sportsman. If all the people WHO BASH THEM, would take the time to study the information he has gathered and exactly what motivates him on this topic. then just MAYBE we could have an informed conversation on this topic.

I am not saying who is right or wrong I am saying you should take an open minded look at the information,and not base your opinion on the wrightings of a few jounalist. who may have theyre own agendas.

Same guy that said a housecat was a cougar,,,,,,, WHAT A DORK!!

[U.P. Whackmaster]

Luv2bowhunt,
Many bear houndsman`s dogs also double as cat dogs out west. FYI.

[U.P. Whackmaster]

Cougars in michigan? Might be, considering the vastness of the U.P.
Back in the late 70`s, I grew up around many different loggers as I peeled pulp for my first job. Many had tales of wolves up in the "north country." That, the "north country," was the National Forest all along Federal Forest Highway 16 going to Kenton. Many of the loggers reported the wolves to the DNR, only to be told that there were no wolves in the U.P., that what they were seeing were coyotes. Many had trapped when they were young as well as their fathers. They knew the difference between wolves and coyotes. Why would the DNR deny the fact that there were wolves here?
Could it be that they were using sportsmen`s license revenue to re-introduce an undesirable species without sportsmen`s consent? Then when the packs got larger in numbers, they had no choice but to go public with their project. Why do this? Could it be a conspiracy theory with the state of MI. in kahoots with the insurance companies? Think about it, how many millions of dollars are spent by insurance companies on deer car accidents? Many! Just food for thought. So, why would cougars in Michigan be unfeasable?
I am posing these questions for the sake of argument. I have, on two occasions, witnessed what I believe to be cougars. I know what a wolf, coyote, bobcat,etc. look like. I`ve seen all of the above up close and personal. So, what were they if they weren`t cougars. I didn`t get to observe them for any length of time but I know what I saw! Now, on the other side of the coin some of my best friends are bear houndsmen. They also go out west to Colorado cougar hunting with these same hounds. Why is it they haven`t cut a cougar track here in the U.P.? I am here to tell you I have spent days and many miles bear hunting with them and we have never cut a cougar track or treed one. My point is to keep an open mind. We need more data to make an informed decision. Please try not to call someone a nutbag because of what they have/ have not seen. We need to stick together on issues such as these, not tease or chastise from within the ranks. By sticking together, we`ll get to the bottom of this controversy.

[Fabian Suarez]

Cougars? Why not! It seems every year black bears are making their way further south into the lower penninsula. Last year there were several black bear sightings in the Ludington area, I think they actually photographed a sow and two cubs. Wolves didn't exist in the U.P. ony a few years ago and now your chances of seeing them are pretty good. NOT a nice thing when youre walking out to your hunting spot at "O dark thirty"!!

[Pigpen69]

Cougars? Why not! It seems every year black bears are making their way further south into the lower penninsula. Last year there were several black bear sightings in the Ludington area, I think they actually photographed a sow and two cubs. Wolves didn't exist in the U.P. ony a few years ago and now your chances of seeing them are pretty good. NOT a nice thing when youre walking out to your hunting spot at "O dark thirty"!!

there was a black bear walking down M37 this summer at 10 mile rd in Kent county.

[huntingfool43]

Heck, they have spotted black bears as far south as the clover leaf at I 94 and I 69 near Marshall. Thats not to say anything of the one seen crossing Highway 12 or 60 west of Homer(don't remember exact hwy). It was in Woods and Water last month or the month before. I would have to say we have some sort of big cat running around here near Springport just from the sheer number of the reports of people seeing the thing. Pet released or pure wild cat it's been seen by enough people around here that sooner or later someone will get some photos of it to prove it. I just hope some hickerbilly don't shot it and bury it so nobody will ever no for sure.

[Swamp Monster]

Heck, they have spotted black bears as far south as the clover leaf at I 94 and I 69 near Marshall. .

Not certain, but I believe the "bear" you are talking about at that cloverleaf turned out to be a cardboard cut out painted to look like a bear....you know, the like the ones you can by for yard decorations. Maybe Boehr can shed some light on it, but I remember the DNR checking it out due to a bunch of calls.

But yeah, they are much, much farther south than Ludington. They have been spotted on the I96 corridor near Portland.

[huntingfool43]

Not certain, but I believe the "bear" you are talking about at that cloverleaf turned out to be a cardboard cut out painted to look like a bear....you know, the like the ones you can by for yard decorations. Maybe Boehr can shed some light on it, but I remember the DNR checking it out due to a bunch of calls.

But yeah, they are much, much farther south than Ludington. They have been spotted on the I96 corridor near Portland.

Looks like Woods & Water should have checked their sources a little better.LOL But they have been spotted in the Lansing area also, in a Walmart parking lot I think it was.

[boehr]

Not certain, but I believe the "bear" you are talking about at that cloverleaf turned out to be a cardboard cut out painted to look like a bear....you know, the like the ones you can by for yard decorations. Maybe Boehr can shed some light on it, but I remember the DNR checking it out due to a bunch of calls.

But yeah, they are much, much farther south than Ludington. They have been spotted on the I96 corridor near Portland.
That's a fact about the Marshall bear.:)

[2PawsRiver]

There are Cougar in Michigan. Ask anybody that didn't get a deer last year and they will tell you it's because the Wolves and Cougars have ate them all.

Currently I don't believe there are Cougars in Michigan, and I don't think the Wolves had much impact on the Deer populaton or hunter success.....however if I don't get a deer this year I may change my opinion :)

[boehr]

Do I believe that some people might "create" the evidence of cougars?

Yes.

Do I believe that someone might actually import and release a cougar just to keep these stories going?

Yes.

Do I think that, in some areas of the western UP, it's possible there might be some WILD cougars?

Yes.

But we have no proof. Only stories that make for interesting discussions and debate that sell magazines.

Yep, I can agree with that.

[WinMag]

Cougars were originally native to Michigan and nobody disputes this. How, then, can we be absolutely sure that all cougars were killed off? Can anybody guarantee me that a few cougars were not left anywhere in the entire state of Michigan? I believe that cougars exist in Michigan just as they did two hundred years ago. We humans shouldn't be arrogant enough to believe that we can count every wild animal in the state.

As for the experts, I think that some group-think might have been going on. As an engineer, I have been in many situations where one very influential individual will voice an opinion and other experts will align their opinions with the powerful person. Don't think that all science is objective. Scientists are people, too. The fact is that sometimes powerful and well-positioned people can skew an argument just by their presence. I have spent many hundreds of hours in the woods in Michigan and I have never seen many of the species that I know are there. In my lifetime, I have seen only one porcupine in the Michigan woods, but there may be thousands of them out there. I have never seen a wolverine, either. My belief is that these cougars are highly intelligent, highly adaptable, and probably very nocturnal and that is why we don't see them.

[boehr]

Cougars were originally native to Michigan and nobody disputes this. How, then, can we be absolutely sure that all cougars were killed off? Can anybody guarantee me that a few cougars were not left anywhere in the entire state of Michigan? I believe that cougars exist in Michigan just as they did two hundred years ago. We humans shouldn't be arrogant enough to believe that we can count every wild animal in the state.You may be right. The problem, as stated many times before, and I will, with this post, speak as a DNR employee. We can not prove that wild, breeding, cougars exist in Michigan. So, the facts are, the DNR can say we have no proof that cougars exist. The DNR can also say we have no proof that cougars don't exist. The bottom line, if you can't prove they exist, then one can't say they do exist. I will tell you without reservation, the DNR will be happy to acknowledge that cougars exist when we can provide proof that they exist to the nay sayers. Until that proof is found, if it is ever found, there are no wild breeding cougars that the DNR can prove. That my friend is the logical bottom line. :cool:

[WinMag]

...I will tell you without reservation, the DNR will be happy to acknowledge that cougars exist when we can provide proof that they exist to the nay sayers. Until that proof is found, if it is ever found, there are no wild breeding cougars that the DNR can prove. That my friend is the logical bottom line. :cool:
Hunters: keep a small digital camera with you at all times while in the woods. Digital is best so you can verify on the spot that your picture is good. Sooner or later, one of us is bound to photograph one of these big cats. I will have my rifle loaded for deer and my camera loaded for cougar. ;)

[boehr]

...We can not prove that wild, breeding, cougars exist in Michigan....I can already prove cougars in Michigan, I already have the pictures.;) I can't prove wild, breeding cougars.:)

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/500/medium/96Cougar_Cass_Co.JPG
This one was evidence and is no longer in Michigan. :D

[Big50blaster]

I will tell you without reservation, the DNR will be happy to acknowledge that cougars exist when we can provide proof that they exist to the nay sayers. :cool:

but does the dnr even acknowledge the plaster cast of a track made after a cougar sightin by two agents back in the 60's? i thank Opolka was one of them.

i also wonders bout the alcona sightin made by biologist Larry Robinson in the late 90's. he says he took track photos of the perfectly clear tracks it left in the road? does these pics still exist somewheres?

[boehr]

but does the dnr even acknowledge the plaster cast of a track made after a cougar sightin by two agents back in the 60's? i thank Opolka was one of them.

i also wonders bout the alcona sightin made by biologist Larry Robinson in the late 90's. he says he took track photos of the perfectly clear tracks it left in the road? does these pics still exist somewheres?Can't answer either question, I don't know. By the same token, since you obviously know more about those then I do, my question back is can a plaster cast, a sighting, or track pictures prove wild and breeding? We have lots of sightings, I get probably 15 sightings per year just from my District. Some sightings are proved false, some might be possible, some provide information that someone in the area has a captive cougar which is how my District has seized 4 cougars in the past 10 years or so. Back to the orginal point, wild and breeding. ;)

[Big50blaster]

my question back is can a plaster cast, a sighting, or track pictures prove wild and breeding? ;)

which is why I asked. You is right they dont prove wild and breedin at all. So many people on hear always say that there aint even ben a track in MI found since 1900 and somethin. Some on hear is always quotin the track survey as they aint ever found tracks. so i figgured i would just up and asks ya if ya knew anythang bout those two sightins with tracks since theys both made by dnr guys.



I has seen some pretty good tracks left on a sandbar that would indicate there had been some wild breedin goin on but this was people tracks.:lol: :yikes: :tdo12:

[WinMag]

I can already prove cougars in Michigan, I already have the pictures.;) I can't prove wild, breeding cougars.:)
:D

boehr, please tell us exactly what type of evidence you and the DNR would consider as proof of wild and breeding cougars. When we know what to look for, we will be more likely to find something useful.

[FREEPOP]

boehr, please tell us exactly what type of evidence you and the DNR would consider as proof of wild and breeding cougars. When we know what to look for, we will be more likely to find something useful.

Used profilactics with DNA :SHOCKED: :lol: :lol:

[Big50blaster]

Used profilactics with DNA :SHOCKED: :lol: :lol:

you knows darn good and well they wouldnt accept that as proof either!!!

i thank they is more intrested in reproduction than they is in the actual breedin taking place:lol: :lol: :lol:

[boehr]

boehr, please tell us exactly what type of evidence you and the DNR would consider as proof of wild and breeding cougars. When we know what to look for, we will be more likely to find something useful.That's a good question. I guess one of the best answers I could think of would be a den with mother and young. I would believe if that was reported and location provided that would be some pretty good proof. A biologist could probably provide additional information on proof. Give your local office a call and talk to the biologist. From the little I know about cougars, they are normally born mid-summer with anywhere from 1-6 young. Those young will stay with the mother for 1-2 years.

[huntnbrush]

So... there are admittedly cougar in wooded or wild areas of the state but, we're not sure if they have an active social life.;)

[boehr]

So... there are admittedly cougar in wooded or wild areas of the state but, we're not sure if they have an active social life.;)If you say so....I didn't.;)

[2PawsRiver]

That's a good question. I guess one of the best answers I could think of would be a den with mother and young. I would believe if that was reported and location provided that would be some pretty good proof. A biologist could probably provide additional information on proof. Give your local office a call and talk to the biologist. From the little I know about cougars, they are normally born mid-summer with anywhere from 1-6 young. Those young will stay with the mother for 1-2 years

That is his grown up, I am a command officer at work response.

Wait a few months and get his "Yeehaa, I'm Free" response of.............Looks almost like when Dogs, Lions, Deer, Elephants, Horses, Cows, Pigs, Elk, Moose, Tigers, Mice, Turtles, Possums, Porkies, Chickens and Yotes are breeding, just alittle different.

Watch a little HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, MTV, BET and Discovery Channel and you will get some insight into that question. ;) :)

[WinMag]

...a den with mother and young. ...
If I ever see cougar cubs, I'll try to locate their den. Another question: Assuming we do learn that cougars are wild and breeding in Michigan, would they be considered desirable or would there be some effort to control their numbers for fear of threat to livestock or game animals such as deer?

[boehr]

That is his grown up, I am a command officer at work response.I think you will find that my way of thinking will not change in a few more months. I have always tried to stand up for what I think is right regardless if it is to a citizen or to my bosses. Believe me, some of my bosses will be very happy when I'm gone because they won't have me arguing with them any more, one less obstacle (or pain in their rear) for them.;) You'd be more correct if I didn't participate in a discussion verse participation. :D

would they be considered desirable or would there be some effort to control their numbers for fear of threat to livestock or game animals such as deer?I doubt that the department would ever want to exterminate any species that happen to come here on their own. The department would obviously do what they could to keep numbers in check provided they were given the authority to do so. No different than the wolf that the department wants to control, unfortunately some judge is making the determination by listening to a bunch of self proclaimed do gooders.

[New Kid]

Hey why not. Iowa, minnesota, fill thier fair share every winter when guys are running coyotes with dogs. They are very adaptable animals, and there is buffet out there for them. Why not....hey mabye that's whats happening to the pheasants

[wecker20]

when are we going to get the guy beating a dead horse in our smilies option? It could come in handy.

[ESOX]

when are we going to get the guy beating a dead horse in our smilies option? It could come in handy.

Brilliant idea.:) :lol:

[Jacob Huffman]

Brilliant idea.:) :lol:

I will second that....:lol:

[Big50blaster]

when are we going to get the guy beating a dead horse in our smilies option? It could come in handy.

peta would probly throw a fit....even if it twere just a smiley:lol:

they wouldnt complain about guys beatin each other with hammers:bash: but they would the horse....even it was already dead;)

[Hamilton Reef]

Cougar attack? Horse exhumed so wounds can be examined

http://www.mlive.com/news/kzgazette/index.ssf?/base/news-15/1134213610304980.xml&coll=7

Saturday, December 10, 2005 By Rosemary Parker rparker@kalamazoogazette.com

Investigators in Berrien County Friday slogged through snowdrifts to dig up a two-week-old grave, heaved the 1,000-pound carcass onto a flatbed truck, and then spent three and a half hours meticulously documenting the ragged and bloody punctures and tears that ravaged the body -- all to learn what killed Bingo, a 20-year-old horse.

What prompted these extraordinary measures?

A hope that careful analysis of Bingo's death in a rural Berrien County pasture might shed light on a mystery that continues to dog wildlife scientists.

Do cougars still exist in Michigan? And if they do, are they part of a growing population?

Or did Bingo fall victim to the commonplace coyote or wild dog?

The wounded horse was discovered early in the morning of Nov. 25 when it broke through an electric fence and went up to a house, said Valarie Grimes, animal control director for Berrien County. People were awakened by the ruckus and called a veterinarian, who determined quickly that the horse should be euthanized, she said.

Patrick Rusz, who works with the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy examined the animal at the invitation of the Berrien County Sheriff's and Animal Control departments.

``It definitely was attacked by a large cat, almost assuredly a cougar. I'm 100 percent sure,'' said Rusz, who holds a doctorate in wildlife ecology.

But Michigan Department of Natural Resources biologists are still not so sure.

Although they were not invited to or notified of Friday's examination, Steve Chadwick, DNR wildlife biologist at Crane Pond State Game Area, reviewed Friday the report of a conservation officer and photos of the attack. He remained unconvinced.

``From the photos, it just does not suggest a cougar to me. I agree with (the conservation officer),'' he said, that it was likely coyotes or dogs that killed the horse.

``A cougar attack on an animal that size leaves evidence on the shoulders from claws,'' Chadwick said, ``and they typically kill by breaking an animal's neck. ... Most of the damage on this animal is from the eye down to the nose, and one ear it pretty well chewed off.''

Chadwick also noted that there were previous bite marks on the animal that had been treated, on the hind leg and the abdomen, and said the horse's owner had thought the animal was being kicked by other horses and so had separated it from the others.

``Also the horse was alive after the initial attack so whatever it was wasn't able to kill it.

``The fact it was still alive after the attack leads you to think coyote or dog.''

But Rusz termed that conclusion part of the ``misinformation'' that came out after the attack

``Some people won't be thrilled (to think) a cougar is here,'' Rusz said, ``but at least they will know the truth.''

Rusz said he's known of plenty of horses in Western states that bear the scars of nonfatal cougar attacks, and that the clear, deep, equally-spaced slashes along the horse's hide, as well as evidence that some bites actually punctured bone, are conclusive evidence of razor sharp claws and crushing jaws.

``Everything was exactly according to how a cat kills. There's so much controversy about whether cougars are in Michigan, and our DNR continues to be confused about it,'' Rusz said.

The DNR's Chadwick said however that there's an allure to discovering that a cougar attack has occurred that is exists independent to the reality he's seen so far.

``We've been rassling with this'' general issue, Chadwick said. ``I don't know what the attraction is. From the DNR standpoint, the animal is already protected and they're in the state's conservation plan.

``We just don't have the conclusive evidence that they are here.''

Chadwick said he has talked to hunters who are out tracking coyotes several times a week, ``and they have yet to cut a cougar track.''

He has also visited cougars in captivity to collect samples of droppings and to make castings of their prints for comparison in the event reports come in.

``I've looked at several suspicious tracks, and most have been dogs. ... It's not like we're not looking,'' Chadwick said. ``We're just not finding the evidence.''

The damage to Bingo's face and body were enough to make believers out of Grimes and Mark Johnson, the veterinarian who put the horse out of his misery and assisted with Friday's investigation.

Grime said she wants the public to be aware of the possibility of predator attacks on livestock. Johnson said that while he is convinced that a cat was responsible for the horse's death, he's not so sure that means people should change their behavior.

``It's important for veterinarians in the area to have this understanding, and by documenting what this was it may be helpful to others in other parts of the state or country to know what they might be dealing with.

``But (this particular cat) may have taken quite a beating in this failed attack,'' Johnson said. ``There's an old saying: `A cat only walks across a hot stove once.' These are intelligent animals.

``You'd think it would (from now on) take on mice or rabbits, better than trying to take on a 1,000-pound horse.''

[anon3292009]

:confused: For starters, the title of this post needs a line of question marks...not exclamation marks. The existence of cougars in our state is uncertain. This Michigan Wildlife Conservancy is well know for it's position that THERE ARE cougars in Michigan. Scientifically, one does conduct an investigation STARTING WITH a presumed conclusion! P. Rusz is "100% certain" that the horse was killed by a cougar? He is entitled to his own opinions, but he is not entitled to claim them as proof(facts). The only facts here are a dead horse with wounds on it. Anything beyond that is opinion(hypothesis). There is a lot of confusing and conflicting information on the issue of the existence of cougars in Michigan. Let's keep the facts separate from the opinions, and rely on applied science to provide more information.