New Muzzleloader

[Gobblerman]

I'm looking to purhcase a muzzeloader for the first time. I've never shot or hunted with a muzzleloader. For a first timer any suggestions out there?

[firemantom]

I bought my first ML last year! I got a CVA Buckhorn Magnum 50 cal. It was about $130 for the gun and set-up, i bought it @ Dunhams. I was able to take a nice doe at aprox. 75 yards with open sights, during last years late season! Droped her where she stood! I know there are much more expensive ones out there, but mines great, and I can't wait ti use it again! so if your not looking to spend alot of $$$ I would recomend the CVA.

[D_Hunter]

Yuppers, for the money the CVA line is a shooter. I have the Eclipse that I bought from Red Head. $129 with scope. It is a tack driver at 100 yards. 90 grains of powder with a 365gr conical bullet.

Biggest trick about a ML is to KNOW your ML. Each shoots differently and it pays to experiment. DO NOT over load your ML with powder, all this will do is through your shot groups off. Follow the manual and have fun !!

[Rondevous]

Are you considering an inline, percussion or flinter?

[Gobblerman]

Are you considering an inline, percussion or flinter?

Inline is what I was thinking about. Nothing too complicated, my neighbor has a nice percussion ML that he wants to sell me, however I want something I can put a scope on I've been checking out TC and Knight ML's. But again I need to do some research. ML are a whole new ball game for me.

[kroppe]

I prefer a closed breech, hammer type of action. I have a Millenium Designs (MDM) .45 cal inline with break open action, closed breech and external hammer. Shoots 209 primers and I used 2 pellets 50gr (100gr) total with a 175gr sabot. Works for me. What I like is the simplicity of the loading, priming and cocking of the hammer. Also have a 2.5-7x scope which is perfect for the woods I hunt. I almost always leave the scope at wide open, 2.5x because I am rarely shooting more than 70 yards. I prefer .45 cal because you can get higher velocities and flatter trajectory than with the heavier bullets. That statement is probably controversial, but I believe in it, and it has worked on 2 deer in the past 2 seasons. Lethality with this setup is not an issue either.

There are a number of good rifles out there, you probably can't go wrong. I would also recommend the longest barrel you can find in your price range and meeting your other purchase criteria. Good luck!

[Gobblerman]

Thanks Kroppe for the advice.

[deputy]

40 Dead Center - 240 grain - BC .351 - 110 gr. Triple Seven FFF - CVA 26" .45
Distance (yards) Muzzle 50 100 150 200 250 300
Velocity (fps) 1995 1888 1785 1688 1595 1508 1426
Kinetic Energy (ft lb) 2121 1899 1699 1518 1356 1212 1083

Trajectory 2.8 4.7 3.9 0 -7.3

and now the 50 with a heavier bullet same charge of t7

44 Dead Center - 260 grain - BC .327 - 110 gr. Triple Seven FF - Encore 25" .50
Distance (yards) Muzzle 50 100 150 200 250 300
Velocity (fps) 1930 1818 1712 1611 1517 1428 1345
Kinetic Energy (ft lb) 2150 1908 1691 1499 1328 1177 1044
Trajectory 3.1 5.2 4.3 0 -8.0

not enough to make me give up my 50. now at under 100yds the 45-50 debate is dead the either will kill but the 50 just does it better there is not enough differance in traj to make an issue of it! the number are there get a 50 be happy

[deputy]

Omega is stuff to beat have seen them at wally world in howell for under 300 bucks right now the next would be a cva optima pro and the likes get the money get the omega

I would never give up the energy of the 50 for a 1 inch drop differance

[mich buckmaster]

Dicks has the Omega thumbhole stock in camo and stainless for $399!!

That is a good price and one hell of a gun!!

[Gobblerman]

I've decided on the Thumbhole Omega. However I'm going to have to wait until next year. I really liked the way it feels. Now I have to come up with the money.

[chevyjam2001]

I have an omega (2 actually) and I love it. With 130 grains of 777 pellets and a 250 grain hornady sst/ml bullet, I am good out to 200 yards. I agree the feel of the thumbhole stock is comfortable that is how I wound up with the second one.

[msb]

I needed a blackpowder rifle that I wouldn't have to clean the same like my flintlock when I'm up north at a friends house. I chose a New England firearm sidekick at about 160 out the door. Inline shooter with the 209 primers and the fiber optic sights. Nice gun and you can get it with a scope mounted for about about 225.00.
Right out of the box, loaded with 2- 50 grain pellets and a 200 grain sabot it was shooting 3 inch groups at about 60 yards. That was all the testing that was done last year but it will be going out soon for the 100 yard test.
I was impressed witht the gun right off the bat and remember that N.E.F. is a sub company of marlin firearms.

[Swamp Monster]

I've decided on the Thumbhole Omega. However I'm going to have to wait until next year. I really liked the way it feels. Now I have to come up with the money.


Perfect choice!!!! You will be impressed with this rifle!!

[David G Duncan]

For the money you can't beat a New England Firearms "Sidekick" for reliability and accuracy in my book.

I am sure that you would be happy with this gun. I have a Great Plains Hunter and a Knight mag., but recently purchased a NEF "Sidekick", because my wife's NEF "Huntsman" shoots circles around my other muzzleloaders. So far I am very happy with the performance of the "Sidekick".

[fishinmachine2]

This will be my 3rd year for my Omega and I LOVE it!! Its a great gun. All my buddys own one too. I shoot 130 gr of Pyrodex and a 45 cal 250 grain sabbot. I've killed 3 deer with it and my girlfriend has killed a deer with it.:lol: None of them went more then 40 yrds. Good Luck!!

Scott

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

If You Only Want To Buy One In A Lifetime *****omega 50 Caliber*** Plain And Simple The End!

[TJO]

I have my opinion and it is if you want the best ML buy the Savage 10 MLII hands down the best on the market.

[lumpy]

I believe you will be hard pressed for the $ to beat the CVA optima (189.00 at walmat) Inline, break action. I have one and have know 3 other people purchase one after me. 100 grains of pyrodex followed by a 250 grain hornady SST. Good out to 150 yards.

[TJO]

Lumpy not putting down the CVA at all just making a point that everyone has an opinion as to which is the best ML and I'm sure your shoots just fine.

[lumpy]

TJO, not saying this is the BEST shoter, Just saying that in that price range it is very hard to beat the ability. Hell I got an old CVA bobcat I paid $50.00 for and out to 50 yards open sights, roundball, I would put it up against anything. That being said It has it limitations as does everyones budget.
Not knocking anyone manufacturer they all do a nice job, I drive a ford they drive a chevy , we all get there.

[deputy]

Now why buy a savage when yah cant use smokeless.here in mi. oh and have to deal with vent liners and etc... oh and it heats up to much to shoot in the summer. unlike most bp guns it requires more time to cool. i have seen to many complaints on forums about the savage of late. about all these things no thanks omegas and ultimates for me

[TJO]

Now deputy in all fairness you can use smokeless during the regular gun season, vent liners are good for 300 shots or better, it only heats up in the summer if using real hot loads, I would assume that an ultimate using 4-5 pellets would also heat up. I am surely not trying to sell anyone a savage and I surely have not bad mouthed any ML's they all work. But if someone is looking at buying new and $400.00 is in there price range I would suggest they at least look at one, they still shoot BP and other subs and yes smokeless to boot. So it seems to be a very versitile firearm. And yes I expect the laws to change for ML season maybe allowing smokeless since the velocities produced are no greater than your ultimate or a 150 gr charge of anything else. And I truley think that the ML season will be back to side hammer, no scopes, no 209's type guns in the very near future. There are just to many high powered ML's on the market today and you couldn't single one or two out it would be all or none. So for now I will continue to use my savage or one of my T/C's maybe my MK 85. And don't kid yourself there are many other smokeless guns out there being used including Encores that have been converted and that has been going on for many years. Savage just put one in production.

[Swamp Monster]

TJO, What kind if info have you seen for the Encores and smokeless? I've never heard anything, but I'm sure someone has done it! The only things I have seen are the modified breech plugs to use .25acp or .22 hornet cases and rifle primers. They still use black powder/substitutes but the case just holds the primer.
I'd be interested in reading about the smokeless in the Encores although I have no desire to do it myself.


The smokeless is only legal in the rifle zone during the general firearms season. It's illegal in all seasons in the shotgun zone.

[NEMichsportsman]

And yes I expect the laws to change for ML season maybe allowing smokeless since the velocities produced are no greater than your ultimate or a 150 gr charge of anything else. And I truley think that the ML season will be back to side hammer, no scopes, no 209's type guns in the very near future.


How can you say one thing and then what seems to be the complete opposite in the next sentence?

Just curious where you are coming from.

[TJO]

All I was trying to say was that wheather you use BP a sub or smokeless in a ML it should not matter. The main reason that today smokeless is not legal in the ML season is because someone within the DNR was told that it produces high velocities more than BP and others. Well that is not true ask deputy what ultimate claims there gun will shoot? T/C claims what 2400-2500 fps as the most powerful ML on the market. So whats the beef with someone using smokeless oh yea there other excuss was there would be guys loading in a gun not designed for it well maybe they should read the owners manual. My point was either smokeless will be allowed in ML season or with all the newer guns of today they may just revert back to the cap and ball guns. There are more and more people going to smokeless than you know. I hope that made more sense. Swamp nothing to read just custom gunsmiths doing what they do best. There are Rugers, T/C's H&R's and several others out there that are shooting smokeless. I won't say where and who in this public forum but if someone is interested you could PM me and I would be happy to pass the info on.

[wruebs]

I wish that I would have inquired about the cleaning process and the time it takes to clean the particluar model. I bought a cva apollo a few years back. Good gun, accurate, but a pain to clean (throughly). Takes me about 25 (at least) minutes. I would gladly had paid a few more bucks to get a sealed 209 breakaway breach. I'm looking to buy a new one for this reason alone.

[deputy]

all iam saying is this i dont want to have to change vent liners every 300+ plus shots, or deal with rezeroing my scope if i hunt in zone 3 then change it for a re zero for a weekend hunt in the up or vice versa yeah i get kind of hot in the summer wiht my ultimates but not as bad as my buddies ml-ll, yeap i have used a nula, and a ruger no 1 convert too i have tried them out nice really not bad. all i will say is this when if ever michigan becomes a smokeless state ill be ready. ;) the savage is a nice gun but. i dont like having to mess with vents liners and such if i forget per say etc..... omega encore just shoot, my gun same thing hell i dont even have to remove my breech plug ever for anything!

[TJO]

deputy, and I just don't see any reason Mi shouln't become a as you say smokeless state. Really what is the difference you still have to measure pour down the barrel use the same sabots and bullets, the velocities are no greater than any of the newer in-line guns. If you ask me there is no good reason for not allowing it unless somewhere it is written that the gun must smoke LOL. Its cleaner no fuss clean-up, can clean 6 months later if you want. I bet most don't know that Hodgon has 90% of the sales market with pyro and T7 and that they do not want that to go away. I'll it will take is a main stream manufacturer to market a smokeless ML like Knight or T/C and all the rules will change. Did you know that Hodgon pulled the T7 off the market after the first year because on the container it stated it was a smokeless propelant same with pyro and it still classified as smokless per the BATF. It does not have to be stored and shipped like BP. As you say your ready when it happens I just think if more hunters knew the advantages they would be using it. Is'nt funny how everybody wants to shoot mag charges of BP or subs and how they all talk about 200-250 or even 300 yrd capabilities but yet are against the use of smokeless when the only advantage is no smoke and no messy clean-up. Sure makes me wonder what there rational is. I look at it just like bow hunting you pull the string and let the arrow fly wheather its whit your fingers or with a mech release it still shoots the bow. As I said earlier you still have to measure pour down the barrel and use the same 209's, sabots and bullets and it goes bang I don't see what the issue is.

[QuakrTrakr]

Knight! Knight! Man are they accurate!!

[Kevin]

I have a CVA Mountainstalker 54 cal sidelock. I think it is a really neat gun, but not very reliable, despite all my efforts with various nipples, and even pre-loading a little powder before putting the nipple back on.

This year I picked up the CVA Kodiak inline in the 50 cal. It has the pivot block design. Very easy to load the primer and seals it in so there are no misfires. Also makes it easy to clean. You flip trigger and hammer mechanism down, pull the breech plug and run a cleaning rod clear through.

We'll see if I can shoot straight with it ;)